More Thoughts on Stealth Rock

Do you support the testing of a Stealth Rockless metagame?


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Many of the people in this thread already have said a number of reasons why they would like to see SR thrown out, ex. giving Moltres a chance
Should we ban heatran to give weezing a chance? Ban Skarmory and Bronzong to get Tauros out of BL? This argument doesn't hold much weight. If we start banning anything that is a 100% counter to something else, we are heading for a kakuna dominated metagame. Also, people still use Moltres effectively.

As for Pursuiters such as Weavile it has to take a hit from SR to come in. Not to mention it has to potentially deal with say a Gengar's Focus Blast or get OHKO/2HKOed by Ghosts using other moves. One could argue for Tyranitar, but it suffers from extreme Fighting weak just like Weavile.
I'm not understanding how SR prevents pursuiters from pursuiting. Weavile is still one of my most useful pokemon even with SR on every team.

There are a number of pokémon that just force switches just by being out there since you need to quickly get to a counter or be swept. By switching to these counters you have to deal with taking a hit of SR too and like how some point out that's all that's needed to push something else to get OHKOed or 2HKOed.
Do you mean to tell me that you actually want to miss a 2HKO on blissey, skarm, cress and the like? Also, garchomp is gone now.

In October in the Standard and Uber ladder the most common leads are SR users.
High usage does not break something. Never has and never will. Again, do you plan on banning Heatran?

It seems like you just really don't like Stealth Rock and are trying to gain an early influence on how people vote.
 
I voted don't test.

Personally without it I think the game would become even more centralised, some pokemon such as Charizard would become more common, but things like Salamance usage will rise, just sash it and it can easily get 2 Dragon Dance's late game (just get rid of the pokemon likely to have a priority move, there are usually not more than 2 a team.) and sweep with outrage.

Being forced to have Sandstorm/Hail/Spikes just to get rid of focus sash will overcentralise the metagame, In my opinion, but what do I know? I'm a noob here :P

we are heading for a kakuna dominated metagame.
I personally like the sound of that. :P
 
Uh, guys? What seriously spawned this discussion? SR is the key to the metagame, but why are we looking actively for things to ban?

This:
bumping this by request and because every time i read any revamp/analysis it says "with SR support" and "provided you have SR down" like at least twice and well if that isnt an indication that our metagame literally and figuratively revolves around this broken move then i dont know what is. weigh in here again guys...when should we considered testing this, if we dont agree that sr falls under my definition of suspect:

Any Pokémon, move or clause that respectively may benefit competitive standard or uber battle if moved or implemented elsewhere.
j7r is right on the money here. The move is everywhere and changes the metagame. That doesn't mean it's broken, simply because it is used all the time.

As for the "we've banned moves that are overcentralizing before" argument, take a look at the other banned moves (which are under review anyway): Double Team and OHKO. Do either of these bans have anything to do with "too many teams use the move, not using it puts you at a disadvantage"? Hell no. Double Team isn't "too common" or "overpowered / you must have it to win", at least not on the only server with it allowed (Official). But at what point have we banned a move for being (1) good and (2) on every team?

Sorry if my argument is sucky, I'm really tired.

OHKO and evasion clause are relics of RBY that have been kept gen to gen without really being questioned. But allowing Double team would mean every team needs a hazer/phazer. I do not want to face a cresselia with Double Team thank you very much.

But back to stealth rock. PErsonally, I have no problem testing a metagame without stealth rock. I'm not going to say we need it or don't need it, cause frankly, i've never played a game without it. There are good things it does and there are bad things it does. The only way to truely know if it's broken or not is to actually play the metagame without it.
 
DT and OHKO moves are actually banned on the basis of being too overpowered if I read stuff in the the Policy Review correctly. The reward is greater than the risk.

I guess we do need to take a step back and state some of the initial reasons why we feel the way we do. Thanks Chris!

1. No other move hits everything (with the exception of not hitting Magic Guard Clefable).

2. Hardly punishable. There's often some way you can punish a pokémon for using a certain move, but in the long run you really cannot.

3. Minimizes the pokémon that can be played (Moltres, Charizard, Yanmega, and Ho-Oh taking 50% is huge) allowing certain pokémon ex. Scizor to run rampant.

4. Ease to set up. Brongzong having only one weakness, can be used by super fast pokémon like Areodactyl too.

5. Hard to get rid of. Not too many pokémon carry Rapid Spin and many are stopped by common Ghosts.

I'll add this to the original post in a sec.

Edit: Also, Rai we are talking about testing a ban on a move, not a pokémon. There's a difference.

Edit 2: Don't forget about priority moves when discussing Sash users.
 

cim

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The only way to truely know if it's broken or not is to actually play the metagame without it.
I think all that will prove is that SR has a huge influence on the metagame. I'm not sure how that will prove if the SR metagame is broken, but it'd probably be a little different.
 
I'm not understanding how SR prevents pursuiters from pursuiting. Weavile is still one of my most useful pokemon even with SR on every team.
Switching a Pursuiter in on most ghosts carries the risk of it getting WoWed. Admittedly, that's less of a problem for Heracross, but he's still not going to like the 12.5% per turn on top of 12.5% from switching in, and a possible 6.25% per turn from sandstorm. Heck, just coming in on WoW takes off a fourth to nearly a third of his health. The others are rendered pretty much useless, to the point where the ghost doesn't even need to switch out. While you probably won't get WoWed switching in on Gengar, no pursuiter likes coming in on anything but Shadow Ball (or in Hera's case, Focus Blast), and there is the risk of coming in on Hypnosis.
 
I think all that will prove is that SR has a huge influence on the metagame. I'm not sure how that will prove if the SR metagame is broken, but it'd probably be a little different.
different is usually on a scale of less centralized towards certain pokemon and more towards others, i.e. the flying class of pokemon would be favoured, zapdos would be the #1 mon, consequences would arise from this and the metagame would "stabilize"

whether this equilibrium point is more or less centralized than the current one we have is up for debate i guess but if anyone is trying to predict raw data as far as usages even like 1 week into this they're going to have a rough time, especially given that we have a nonideal definition of "centralize", bbut we're getting there!

sr testing is gonna come far later than pokemon testing is one prediction i feel qualified to make. that being said this thread can't really amount to a whole lot more than metagame prediction, or theorymon i guess ~_~;

either way i think mti is way out for calling it broken, but it's certainly "testable", just like every other aspect of a metagame, and now is not the time.

also petrie wow is less common than you might think, check out the moveset stats posted by xact.
 

bugmaniacbob

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Anything that helps my favourite bug-types is OK, in my opinion.

Especially Scyther and Pinsir.

But to return to reality, I would assume that the flying pokemon like Aero would see a big increase in popularity.

And I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but Stealth Rock's banning would make Ho-oh almost certain to, well, 'return' to Ubers.
 
Everything Tangerine said in PR pretty much identically mirrors everything I've said for months in every Stealth Rock-related thread I could get my hands on, and everyone really needs to read his post if they haven't already.


I have a significant problem with what Jumpman has claimed our goals are in terms of shaping and balancing the metagame, and in fact I'm slightly confused considering that he personally rejected my Deoxys-S vote way back when I believed "making Choice Scarf obsolete" and "kills all-out offense teams" were valid reasons to throw it into Ubers- which, from where I'm standing, they very well might have been, had Jumpman carried out back then what his philosophy has become. So I'm not really sure what to think about all of that, as besides being what I see as directly contradictory to Smogon's past actions, making the "most competitive metagame possible" or "testing bans when we believe there might be an improvement of some sort" are pretty huge steps in the wrong direction if we want the process of actually finalizing standard to be relatively quick and painless.

Yes, I'm suggesting that "slippery slope" could apply later down the road (I'm looking at Trick and Heatran right now but who knows- while they're both stretches, there are still complaints, which is essentially how Stealth Rock was earlier on. Hipmonlee's suggestion in early DP that he could make a superior OU metagame by banning a number of legendaries and other high-BST pokemon also comes to mind, though truthfully I don't see anything like that ever happening), and if you want to challenge that then I'd love for you to explain away the most recent suspect voting results which, for a pokemon who literally just had several potential counters buffed up significantly in Platinum (most notably Scizor), we still managed to vote Deoxys "Uber" by a greater margin than Garchomp, quite possibly the most dominant OU in the history of pokemon. And while I recognize that there are potentially tons of factors playing a role here and that it may just point to our current voting system sucking (which I believe is the case), there are arguably just as many factors behind this push for Stealth Rock becoming a Suspect- "too few votes" may be a valid explanation for the bizarrely one-sided outcome of the Deoxys Uber/OU vote, but that runs directly parallel to, and in fact may be greater emphasized when we're merely deciding whether or not to put something in the "testing" pile. Maybe I just think a SRless metagame would be a "breath of fresh air"- well, with no real incentive not to go along with it, I guess you've got my vote for a Stealth Rock test, should be fun!

This type of mentality needs to be avoided unless we want to open the doors for literally anything to end up being tested-- or (arguably) worse, things that we don't necessarily "need" so much as "want" tested getting priority over the untested, unjustified bans/clauses we have lying around-- based entirely on popular opinion, even if 80% of those in favor of testing just want to see what crazy things they can pull off without Blissey around (or are just sheep in general). If we draw the line at "Any Pokémon, move or clause that respectively may benefit competitive standard or uber battle if moved or implemented elsewhere," how are we supposed to regulate that? My only explanation is that we simply don't care, and that testing anything based on popular support is something we think we can handle. I think that this already puts far too much faith in a community whose low/mid-tier players would probably have made Suicune and Blissey Suspects a handful of years ago in Advance, and whose "1655 with a deviation of 65" players would have probably kept Celebi out of Adv OU for good. It's also a huge waste of time.

I don't know if just fixing the voting system we have right now might magically solve everything, and that's definitely a priority. I'm also not sure that all of my concerns are necessarily going to end up valid in the long run. I'm just not seeing any incentive in having such a broad definition of what is considered suspect, or for saying that we should strive for the most competitive metagame possible.




As for Stealth Rock specifically, if I tried to add anything I'd only be repeating myself, Tangerine, or jrrrrrrr (who has apparently changed his mind since the last time we've discussed this, which makes me happy lol). I want to particularly emphasize, though, that more than anything else a Stealth Rock ban would change the game fundamentally. When you look at a change that significant, and when you define suspect as "something that benefits the game when gone," hell, if I actually saw a problem with the current metagame I'd be looking at dozens of other random things to potentially test before Stealth Rock, simply because they could help solve the problem without completely changing how DP/Pt works.



RB Golbat said:
The only way to truely know if it's broken or not is to actually play the metagame without it.
I don't know what to say, besides the fact that this makes no sense whatsoever under any circumstances. I'm assuming you just have a wildly different definition of "broken" than I do, but I agree with Chris is me here- we'll arguably know that a SRless metagame is more or less centralized, or that some people prefer one or the other, and it's a foregone conclusion that people will discover that Stealth Rock is highly influential. If the move is broken, though, we'll be able to find out without testing a SRless metagame.


MythTrainerInfinite said:
DT and OHKO moves are actually banned on the basis of being too overpowered if I read stuff in the the Policy Review correctly. The reward is greater than the risk.
Both of those statements are wrong. First of all, we've never actually tested either OHKOs or Evasion moves in DP/Pt (or at least not extensively). Secondly, the theory right now seems to be that neither move is actually worth using the majority of the time (particularly OHKOs, which are ironically the most likely to remain banned in my mind), but since poor players will use them anyway, there might be a needless increase in "hax" losses. In either case we haven't actually tested them, so we have no idea whether the reward might significantly outweigh the risk though.
 
And many tiers can argue this too. Without Stealth Rock, Lugia alone in Ubers is just a monster. It's not called a "Great Wall" for no stupid reason. Remember Ho-oh? Hope you enjoy boosted Sacred Fire in the sun with a side of 50% chance of a burn.
Ubers was never meant to be a balanced tier in the first place, and if Lugia and Ho-oh do become that much more powerful in that metagame, then so be it.

The effects on the other metagames, however, are much more important. No one can really say if a Stealth Rock metagame is "less centralized" or more varied or "better" even because a metagame without it has never been tested. I am for testing a Stealth Rock-less metagame.

And to the people saying "I want to use Moltres and Regice" just because they're cool without saying how they would benefit the metagame by checking certain things like Skymin and Heatran should probably leave that out. No one really cares about what is cool and what isn't.
 
I am for testing a Stealth Rock-less metagame.
everyone should be "for testing", just "for testing later", same as any other metagame suspect or potential suspect before we've improved our testing methods to include things like moves imo
 
There's nothing wrong with Stealth Rock compared to Hypnosis. Oh God, Hypnosis...

Hopefully that 10% drop from DP helps.

Personally, I understand the importance of testing stuff like this, but not this in particular.
 
everyone should be "for testing", just "for testing later", same as any other metagame suspect or potential suspect before we've improved our testing methods to include things like moves imo
honestly, I would put everything we haven't tested that isn't currently in OU above Stealth Rock in priority. Mewtwo, Kyogre, whatever, I don't care if it's a 3-day test, they deserve to be tested first on principle. I suppose this is one of the more extreme opinions but I honestly would never put a potential ban above a potential unban in priority.
 
gormenghast said:
either way i think mti is way out for calling it broken, but it's certainly "testable", just like every other aspect of a metagame, and now is not the time
Agreed.

Stealth Rock is a great move, but there's no reason to ban it. It really doesn't affect too many Pokemon greatly, and plus you Leftovers the damage anyway.

Whilst Rapid Spin is blocked by Ghosts, take a moment to think of the commonly used Ghosts.

Gengar has no business spin blocking, it's way too frail and most Spinners will carry a move that can devastate Gengar anyway.

Spiritomb has very little offensive power, and even if you can use it to block Rapid Spin, you have to consider that most teams won't even bother with Rapid Spin and Spiritomb is relegated to a tank role, something that other Pokemon will do better.

Rotom appliance is the only spin blocker that can actually pose a threat to common spinners, but can switch in on the other moves that spinners possess (Starmie's Surf, Donphan's Stone Edge, Tentacruel's Surf). However, Rotom appliance being able to counter nearly all spinners does not mean that Stealth Rock should be banned.

Also Substitute blocks Rapid Spin anyway.

I'm fine with Stealth Rock being tested, but in my opinion it's a waste of time.
 
Stall teams lose a good chunk of use without Stealth Rock. This is why I'd argue that it CAN create a "balance" for teams. Do you know how hard it is to handle Life Orbed Salamence? How about Life Orb Gyarados? Celebi is 2HKOed by Ice Fang after a Dragon Dance. That's scary folks. And Waterfall still 2HKOes Skarmory for the most part. By removing Stealth Rock, you have EASILY opened a new door, and not a good one in my opinion. You've allowed hyper-offense to be very easy.
erm, no it doesn't? +1 adamant LO waterfall only manages 33-42% on skarmory.

personally I think banning stealth rock is silly, to me its like banning will-o-wisp because it makes physical attackers less viable. And like others said, stall teams would lose a lot of their appeal. I wouldn't mind testing a ban though, just to see what its like.
 
I personally think that Stealth Rock keeps the metagame balanced. My main argument for my viewpoint is that an SR-less metagame would allow pokemon like Salamence and Gyarados to run rampant, and then, it would make it much more harder to counter those pokemon. From your post, you are stating that Choice Scarf is almost necessary just to prevent these pokemon from completely sweeping; now, just imagine a metagame where there would be no consequences for switching in these pokemon freely. That would cause quite a problem in my opinion.

I also believe that Stealth Rock has already defined a stable metagame in the terms of sweeping as well. Sweepers would not serve as well without Stealth Rock in play either, as some OHKO's could not be achieved without the use of SR. Also, the use of SR, once again in my opinion, prevents walls to be running rampant either, as they wouldn't have to be taking that much more damage anymore and then it would be more difficult to get past them.
 
I personally think that Stealth Rock keeps the metagame balanced. My main argument for my viewpoint is that an SR-less metagame would allow pokemon like Salamence and Gyarados to run rampant
People, stop saying this. It's no less speculation than saying "Moltres/Articuno/whatever will be a lot more viable with no SR around". WE DON'T KNOW until we actually test it. And no matter how opposed you are to the thought of Stealth Rock being banned, a test won't hurt you.

I'm honestly surprised at the (to some extent) heavy opposition to a Stealth Rock test (not ban, but test!!). Are people really that afraid of a potential change in their beloved Metagame?
 
Boingo said:
I'm honestly surprised at the (to some extent) heavy opposition to a Stealth Rock test (not ban, but test!!). Are people really that afraid of a potential change in their beloved Metagame?
Testing Stealth Rock would be time better spent on Manaphy, Lati@s, Mew, and literally everything else that we haven't yet proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is actually deserving of the ban that it has.
 
I don't think Stealth Rock should ever be "banned". I think there should be a rare clause where you can play without it. Similiarly to Item Clause, those you feel it makes the game better without it can play without it. Those who like playing the game with it can. It won't be implemented in most tournaments, or even on the standard ladder. But when you challenge someone, who can just to or to not activate the clause.

And we're not stupid. We know some of what's going to happen under "Stealth Rock Clause", even without testing.

I to, don't think it is top priority. I think Manaphy, and Lati@s are (Forget Mew, that's so Uber... Darkrai too.)
 
Testing Stealth Rock would be time better spent on Manaphy, Lati@s, Mew, and literally everything else that we haven't yet proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is actually deserving of the ban that it has.
Where's the proof that Stealth Rock ISN'T deserving of a ban? We're apparently so split on the issue that we won't be able to tell if it should be banned until we test it.

I can understand testing other things first (I've already said this isn't a top priority.), but NOT testing it because we have other things to test? Does that make any sense?
 
Where's the proof that Stealth Rock ISN'T deserving of a ban? We're apparently so split on the issue that we won't be able to tell if it should be banned until we test it.

I can understand testing other things first (I've already said this isn't a top priority.), but NOT testing it because we have other things to test? Does that make any sense?


Testing a metagame without stealth rock to test whether or not it's broken?

?
 
I think the problem a lot of people have with SR (myself included) is that it is type discrimiate. There is only Stealth Rock, not Stealth Icicle, or Stealth Weed (you can guess the types). Why Nintendo picked rock is beyond me (perhaps to prevent a Butterfree dominated metagame, who knows), but they did. Should the move have been introduced in the first place? Maybe not, but it was, and it's here to stay.

I think when people think about how SR affects a typical team, they tend to forget that most teams are built taking into account SR and making sure to not have too many rock weaks on the team. This obviously shows that SR bends the metagame. How much does it do so? Well, it would have to be tested to find out, but I don't think I'm the only one who is predicting the outcome of such a test to be "SR indeed has a large impact on the metagame, but not enough to warrant a ban."

Anyways, the point I really want to make is that most people who want SR banned want it because they don't like it, not because it's truly overpowering/overcentralizing/overwhatevering. Yeah, it sucks that Moltres is rendered pretty useless outside of a lead role, especially as it counters Heatran and Scizor so well, but I still use it as a lead with good results, I just used a little creativity with the set. Don't be afraid to use something that isn't listed in the Smogon Strategy Pokédex!

By the way, I hope I don't sound like I'm contradicting myself in this post. Just to be clear, I feel that SR shouldn't have been introduced in the first place, but I believe that it isn't so bad as to warrant a ban.
 
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