I'm not saying it's not good, just that people were saying that hyper offense was dead and shit, while hyper offense is still really really good. Also, at this point mandibuzz isn't underrated, everyone knows about it. Same with bisharp
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Other Most overhyped or underated aspect this gen so far?
- Thread starter Liquidocelot
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Overrated:
Talonflame. I know what its purpose it, it's not a sweeper but an excellent revenge killer. But it has 81 attack and most teams run a hard counter to it without even trying. Any bulky Pokemon or any Pokemon that can resist both of its STABs can most likely counter it. Talonflame has a job, it does it well but it's otherwise a very non-threatening Pokemon and you get people saying "oh, X is weak to flying, there's no way it can be OU because of Talonflame."
Underrated:
Most Mega Evolutions. "Mega X sucks ass because it's not as good as [currently most powerful mega(s) that have not yet been banned]."
Talonflame. I know what its purpose it, it's not a sweeper but an excellent revenge killer. But it has 81 attack and most teams run a hard counter to it without even trying. Any bulky Pokemon or any Pokemon that can resist both of its STABs can most likely counter it. Talonflame has a job, it does it well but it's otherwise a very non-threatening Pokemon and you get people saying "oh, X is weak to flying, there's no way it can be OU because of Talonflame."
Underrated:
Most Mega Evolutions. "Mega X sucks ass because it's not as good as [currently most powerful mega(s) that have not yet been banned]."
Use it in a few high-level matches and you'll see why it'll not go beyond UU.
Terrible defenses, 165 atk is wasted on a Prankster mon (it'll only run 1 attack at most), Destiny Bond is easily predictable, and why use a Mega to suicide when you can run threats like Pinsir, Lucario, Megazards, etc.
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Banette: 280-331 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With HP investment, it can survive a maximum Atk Outrage from Salamence. Are it's defenses really that terrible? Not to mention that if it switches in on such an Outrage and survives, it can easily dispatch of a threat with Destiny Bond.
It's Atk can also be put to good use:
252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Trevenant: 374-444 (100 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's not every day you see a Trevenant getting OHKO'd by an unboosted attack.
Anything can survive hits with fully invested evs, that means absolutely nothing, specially when youre just barely surviving even with those evs. The point is that mega banette, despite having the amazing destiny bond+prankster combo, relies too much on mindgames to be put to good use and is forced to die to kill anything that inst weak to ghost, not to mention its eating up a mega slot for something that would be far more consistent.
The main issue I see with Mega Banette is that the 165 attack is wasted because its physical movepool is pretty bad. It didn't get the elemental punches, so it ends up having a grand total of 4 types of physical attacks: Ghost, Normal, Dark, and Poison (Gunk Shot). That makes it extremely predictable as a sweeper, and while it can hit hard, many common physical walls like Donphan and Ferrothorn that it can't hit with a super effective attack can deal with it with little difficulty.
Don't get me wrong, Mega Banette is not bad, but compared to the other big threats of Megas, it leaves a lot to be desired. I wouldn't be surprised if it made UU, but it won't see OU.
Don't get me wrong, Mega Banette is not bad, but compared to the other big threats of Megas, it leaves a lot to be desired. I wouldn't be surprised if it made UU, but it won't see OU.
For the least, it can afford to invest in HP thanks to Prankster, and it's just to show how it doesn't fall as easily to attacks as one might believe.
Using it as a sweeper is a horrible idea, though. Priority Destiny Bond is where its at. The 165 attack is just a bonus...though granted, it's a bonus that lets it destroy Espeon and other Magic Bounce users. They assume you're going to WoW or Destiny Bond, so they Calm Mind or switch in on Mega Banette...then promptly eat a Shadow Claw.
Not really overhyped, though, seeing as it's definitely performing well.
Overhyped: Fairy-types. Mostly specially based on the offensive and defensive sides, but their low powered moves make them less than stellar coverage moves. Azumarrill has been the only Fairy to be effective so far but lets not forget about kl...woah, i'll get to that later.
Mega Mawile: everyone was running in fear of this thing since its power is ridiculous but it is way too slow to do much while its priority doesn't have enough PP and can be played around.
Aegislash: It is a good pokemon, but it is way overhyped. King's Shield is very predictable giving the other team a free turn to switch out or set up. I've heard talk about mixed Aegi but since I'm at the lower end of the ladder I haven't seen much of it (I need help team building >_<). But yea, having bulky ground types or normal types with a move to hit Aegislash hard is all you need to defeat him.
Underhyped: Talonflame. Check the sig. I was one of the many who were skeptical of that low base 81 attack and now look at it. There are 3 pokemon that appear to be full on stops to it and they are Heatran, Rotom-W, and Rotom-H. However, all of them have their disadvantages: none of them have reliable recovery, yet are counted on to check and/or counter multiple other threats, plus Rotom-Heat is weak to SR. Also, Heatran can't do shit to it unless it wants to sacrifice being useful by adding AncientPower to its moveset the same way it added Stone Edge to hold off Volcaronas last generation. People might be thinking that it's STAB's are both resisted by rock-types, but it also has Steel Wing that can be used on any set.
I ain't even done yet. Normally when something has a short list of counters, people simply resort to revenge killing a pokemon. The thing that pushes Talonflame over the top is the fact that it cannot be revenged outside of the rare ExtremeSpeed users. Gale Wings is what really puts a lot of stress on teambuilding because you need dedicated answers to Talon's STAB's. Man, fuck this thing. Plus, if you pair it with this mole right here you can assure its counters will die.
Excadrill- I feel like no one has really been giving Exca any mentions at all in these threads. Everyone has been raving about Thundurus, the Deo formes, and Genesect since they have been unbanned. Weather may have been nerfed but Mold Breaker helps Excadrill hit those levitaters that wouldn't care about it otherwise. That means it is a great teammate for Talonflame since it takes care of all 3 pokemon that stop Talonflame in its tracks for the most part with just one move. I just started using him because I needed something to keep hazards off the field and wasn't super weak to status and Excadrill has been doing an amazing job for me so far.
Klefki- This thing is incredibly annoying. Before I started using Excadrill, I really had to play around this thing. Prankster T-wave is a serious problem and it has such an amazing typing. Priority Spikes and Screens are another amazing utility along with the SwagKey set, which I have not faced yet thankfully. I forget who said it but apparently this thing has basically put TormenTran to sleep for good. The annoyance of this Pokemon is on another level.
EDIT@below: T-tar doesn't exactly appreciate a U-turn or Steel Wing. Especially a banded u-turn or a +2 SW.
Mega Mawile: everyone was running in fear of this thing since its power is ridiculous but it is way too slow to do much while its priority doesn't have enough PP and can be played around.
Aegislash: It is a good pokemon, but it is way overhyped. King's Shield is very predictable giving the other team a free turn to switch out or set up. I've heard talk about mixed Aegi but since I'm at the lower end of the ladder I haven't seen much of it (I need help team building >_<). But yea, having bulky ground types or normal types with a move to hit Aegislash hard is all you need to defeat him.
Underhyped: Talonflame. Check the sig. I was one of the many who were skeptical of that low base 81 attack and now look at it. There are 3 pokemon that appear to be full on stops to it and they are Heatran, Rotom-W, and Rotom-H. However, all of them have their disadvantages: none of them have reliable recovery, yet are counted on to check and/or counter multiple other threats, plus Rotom-Heat is weak to SR. Also, Heatran can't do shit to it unless it wants to sacrifice being useful by adding AncientPower to its moveset the same way it added Stone Edge to hold off Volcaronas last generation. People might be thinking that it's STAB's are both resisted by rock-types, but it also has Steel Wing that can be used on any set.
I ain't even done yet. Normally when something has a short list of counters, people simply resort to revenge killing a pokemon. The thing that pushes Talonflame over the top is the fact that it cannot be revenged outside of the rare ExtremeSpeed users. Gale Wings is what really puts a lot of stress on teambuilding because you need dedicated answers to Talon's STAB's. Man, fuck this thing. Plus, if you pair it with this mole right here you can assure its counters will die.
Excadrill- I feel like no one has really been giving Exca any mentions at all in these threads. Everyone has been raving about Thundurus, the Deo formes, and Genesect since they have been unbanned. Weather may have been nerfed but Mold Breaker helps Excadrill hit those levitaters that wouldn't care about it otherwise. That means it is a great teammate for Talonflame since it takes care of all 3 pokemon that stop Talonflame in its tracks for the most part with just one move. I just started using him because I needed something to keep hazards off the field and wasn't super weak to status and Excadrill has been doing an amazing job for me so far.
Klefki- This thing is incredibly annoying. Before I started using Excadrill, I really had to play around this thing. Prankster T-wave is a serious problem and it has such an amazing typing. Priority Spikes and Screens are another amazing utility along with the SwagKey set, which I have not faced yet thankfully. I forget who said it but apparently this thing has basically put TormenTran to sleep for good. The annoyance of this Pokemon is on another level.
EDIT@below: T-tar doesn't exactly appreciate a U-turn or Steel Wing. Especially a banded u-turn or a +2 SW.
Tyranitar can pretty much switch into everything Talonflame does and force it out.
Anyways, overhyped for me is definitely Sticky Web.
Probably because I run so many flying/levitating pokemons, but I really don't feel the pressure from stickyweb at all. The ones grounded that do get hit by the web, are bulky dudes who really weren't outspeeding much anyways.
I barely see it too.
Anyways, overhyped for me is definitely Sticky Web.
Probably because I run so many flying/levitating pokemons, but I really don't feel the pressure from stickyweb at all. The ones grounded that do get hit by the web, are bulky dudes who really weren't outspeeding much anyways.
I barely see it too.
I don't think the problem with sticky web is that it's a bad hazard, but it's more of the fact it's distribution just sucks so much. The only pokemon that can even be considered in OU that can learn it are Galvantula, Shuckle, and Smeargle, and none of them are top-threat material. I'd bet this thing would be everywhere if it's distribution included Forretress, Genesect, and Scizor, but thankfully it doesn't.
The abundance of levitaters/fliers is just the icing on the cake that makes it so rare.
Yeah, yeah, it handles stall alright...but really people? It has more of a niche now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's stats are practically worthless. It doesn't even have a single stat topping 100.
The abundance of levitaters/fliers is just the icing on the cake that makes it so rare.
Especially Clefable.
Yeah, yeah, it handles stall alright...but really people? It has more of a niche now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's stats are practically worthless. It doesn't even have a single stat topping 100.
Talonflame used U-Turn! Genesect used U-Turn! and so on.
Definitely agreeing with Sticky Web being overhyped. It turns out, you need that massive distribution of Stealth Rock to work as an entry hazard, and yes, it didn't kill HO at all, not one bit. Galvantula has just disappeared off the face of the earth above 1800 in my experience.
Excadrill has been getting a lot of credit, and deservedly so. Being the absolute best rapid spinner in OU will do that. It still works quite well on a Sand-team too.
I've heard people compare M-Mawile (unfavourably) to M-Lucario, but honestly, they're apples and oranges. Mawile doesn't sweep so much as blow massive holes in a team. It plays more like Conkeldurr and especially Bisharp, who is very similar in stat distribution and playstyle.
And yeah. Klefki. People are calling this the new Whimsicott? It's about a thousand times more annoying.
Or you could use it in (semi-)stall with Unaware and watch it bounce off attacks from a +3 Dragonite and +2 Thundurus like they were nothing.
Rotom H got to be one of the most underhyped Pokemons this Gen, ranked at 102 in terms of official usage stats. While people keep on with the hype on Talonflame, Genesect, Aegislash as huge concerns, Rotom-H is perhaps the best switch-in to either of them. That is especially considering SR is much less of a concern this gen.
Did Unaware do this for Quagsire in the long run? I'm sure after some time, it's usage will drop. Oh, yeah, and by the way,
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 223-264 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Why is this relevant when it can stop Dragonite, you ask? Well, the point is that Unaware Clefable stops set up sweepers for stall teams. If you can't stop MegaZard, you'll have to run a different check, and chances are that check will handle D-nite as well.
Yeah, yeah, it has it's niches, and I'm not disgusted by the idea of someone using it in OU because it fits well onto their team, but I feel like it's being used more then it should be. It's certainly not OU material.
Isn't M-Blastoise the best OU spinner now?
To be fair the fairy type deserves all the hype. The problem is almost all fairies are shit, i mean come on, the most physically bulky fairy we got is Clefable (I know Azumarill, Mega-Garde and Mega-Mawile are awesome but they are good offensively so they can't stop dragons [reliably] at all).
If we had something like fairy Cresselia or water/fairy Milotic i'm sure we'd seen them everywhere (and those 2 can actually stop all dragons by themselves) but gf yet again disappoints us... maybe next gen we'll get some good (legendary) fairies with good movepool and decent base stat distribution.
If we had something like fairy Cresselia or water/fairy Milotic i'm sure we'd seen them everywhere (and those 2 can actually stop all dragons by themselves) but gf yet again disappoints us... maybe next gen we'll get some good (legendary) fairies with good movepool and decent base stat distribution.
Quagsire has a much shallower movepool and most importantly, less support options - no Wish, Thunderwave, Heal Bell, etc. It also isn't equipped to wall on the special side. Also, Clefable has about five more sets you could run viably, and another ability (Magic Guard). Granted, Clefable had Unaware in the gen 5, but being Fighting-weak was never a good thing, when not one but two tiers were saturated with Fighting-types, which obviously it doesn't have a problem with anymore.
As for Zard-X vs Dragonite, it is a terrible example to go to. Except for Choice-sets (which I do not see at all honestly) Dragonite is likely to carry only one coverage move, with the rest being Dragon STAB and Extremespeed, and struggles somewhat with coverage issues as a result. Charizard-X gets STAB on one of the best attacking type combinations in the game and can afford to run STAB alone and get plenty of coverage. This means that the vast majority of Steel-types, one of the main things used to check dragons, cannot check Charizard-X at all, and as a matter of fact, so can't most fairies. (In fact, I can only think of Heatran and Azumarill as checks to both, and Charizard can always carry Earthquake or Thunderpunch if it felt like dropping recovery)
Azumarill and Togekiss actually have statistically more physical bulk than Clefable. Only Togekiss tends to run defensive sets though, and they're more disruptive in nature than meaning to check dragons (Doesn't even carry Dazzling Gleam sometimes. By the way, people should use bulky 3 attacks + roost more. It does very well, what it's supposed to do.)
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Overhyped:
Xerneas. Ho-oh and Aegislash and Scizor and Lucario and Genesect are EVERYWHERE, and for completely different reasons. All of them are really good pokemon in general and countering Xerneas is just an afterthought that they happen to do for free.
Galvantula/Smeargle: Sticky Web is a pretty bad hazard that half the OU metagame flies or levitates over, it gets blown away easily, and bulky slow pokemon don't care.
Charizard: Still bad.
Goodra: While bulky, power creep has limited his usefullness, because plenty of earthquakes/closecombats/HJK/bravebird crush it, let alone dragon/ice/fairy moves out there. It is a good pokemon, but not righteous in any way. 80/100/70/115/140/80 is just a good ol' standard OU pokemon.
Aegislash: Everyone has wisened up now and put EQ on their fighting types, flamethrower on their dragons, and shadow ball and foul play is everywhere because ghost and dark are very good offensive types now. He is a very good pokemon, but was ... overhyped.
Underhyped:
Kangaskhan. No one used him in the first two weeks (though remember blaziken and gengar were still legal). Lordy did we learn later though...
Talonflame. His BST was considered bad but now we have bulk up birds surviving things, SD birds crushing things, and CB birds pulling off last-mon sweeps after just enough hazards.
Azumarril. This thing is a menace, just... jesus christ. Switching in to dragon/fighting/dark/bug moves and either boosting to +6 or break ur walls with CB superpower/playrough/waterfall I hope you guess right lol.
MegaTyranitar and MegaVenusaur. Bulky megas that survive things you had no idea your piddling unboosted EQ would only do 25%
Poison moves. They were actually a pretty damn good neutral STAB on almost everything except steels even before, but there wasn't incentive to use it. No one used sludge bomb on their chlorophyll venusaurs or pivot roserades before because, while good, it wasn't really SE on many things. Ferrothorn and Jirachi were also more common. Things are different now :)
Hidden Power. It still does it's damn job.
Xerneas. Ho-oh and Aegislash and Scizor and Lucario and Genesect are EVERYWHERE, and for completely different reasons. All of them are really good pokemon in general and countering Xerneas is just an afterthought that they happen to do for free.
Galvantula/Smeargle: Sticky Web is a pretty bad hazard that half the OU metagame flies or levitates over, it gets blown away easily, and bulky slow pokemon don't care.
Charizard: Still bad.
Goodra: While bulky, power creep has limited his usefullness, because plenty of earthquakes/closecombats/HJK/bravebird crush it, let alone dragon/ice/fairy moves out there. It is a good pokemon, but not righteous in any way. 80/100/70/115/140/80 is just a good ol' standard OU pokemon.
Aegislash: Everyone has wisened up now and put EQ on their fighting types, flamethrower on their dragons, and shadow ball and foul play is everywhere because ghost and dark are very good offensive types now. He is a very good pokemon, but was ... overhyped.
Underhyped:
Kangaskhan. No one used him in the first two weeks (though remember blaziken and gengar were still legal). Lordy did we learn later though...
Talonflame. His BST was considered bad but now we have bulk up birds surviving things, SD birds crushing things, and CB birds pulling off last-mon sweeps after just enough hazards.
Azumarril. This thing is a menace, just... jesus christ. Switching in to dragon/fighting/dark/bug moves and either boosting to +6 or break ur walls with CB superpower/playrough/waterfall I hope you guess right lol.
MegaTyranitar and MegaVenusaur. Bulky megas that survive things you had no idea your piddling unboosted EQ would only do 25%
Poison moves. They were actually a pretty damn good neutral STAB on almost everything except steels even before, but there wasn't incentive to use it. No one used sludge bomb on their chlorophyll venusaurs or pivot roserades before because, while good, it wasn't really SE on many things. Ferrothorn and Jirachi were also more common. Things are different now :)
Hidden Power. It still does it's damn job.
I suppose I'll give the Clefable argument a rest. I'm still suspicious, but I hadn't actually used it myself, so I'm not in a perfect position to argue, and I'm starting to be convinced I was wrong to be so quick to judge.
The brute is finally worth all the love it gets.
Nope, thanks to the power that is Mega Evolution. No time for MegaZardY you say? Free sun easily makes up for that, hitting with 247 power Fire Blast and 120 power Solar Beams to hit those water types. A not very effective Fire Blast hits at 123 power, meaning it's actually not that easy to swap in. MegaZardX? Tough Claws is pretty much a free life orb with no recoil. Sure, it doesn't affect EQ, but it doesn't care that much. Get SR out of the way, and we have one of the most deadly dragon dancers to date.
The brute is finally worth all the love it gets.
Other such 100 speed sweepers/wallbreakers have the option of running scarf to fix their speed, or using a different item but bluffing scarf, and either way the opponent is in a tough decision and guesswork will be in play. When I see garchomp I worry if it's scarf or band or SD because it usually costs one pokemon to learn the item if you guess wrong. If you see charizard in team preview it's a given that it won't outspeed your chomp/latios/gengar/jolteon/terrakion/scarftar/talonflame/starmie/dugtrio/scarfmence/etc.
But then, in place of that are the mindgames of "is it X or Y?", as they have wildly different counters and checks (even faster sweepers because of different type-matchups). Different types of Garchomp have fairly similar checks, on the other hand (M-Chomp is somewhat different, but even then, they overlap)
That's a downside, sure, but that's not nearly enough to make a pokemon bad. Not at all. Charizard X especially, since it carries Dragon Dance. But even MegaZardY doesn't care that much.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
Not even Latios is entirely safe from this beast. Yes, it can beat it, but it can only swap in to Fire Blast once, and that's it. This thing is downright scary.
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