SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

The talk of the Dark type in the Unpopular Opinions led me to wonder why Knock Off was buffed to the extent it was in Gen 6. It was already an incredibly powerful move in previous gens. What changed that would lead to such a drastic change?

Mega Evolution

Before Gen 6, if you clicked Knock Off, you were going to permanently cripple a Pokemon by removing their held item. Barring specific counterplay like Sticky Hold or maybe Mail (sources unclear if Mail blocked Knock Off, though it doesn't really matter since its main utility was blocking Trick) there was nothing your opponent could do to prevent something from losing its item if none of their Pokemon had already been Knocked.

In Gen 6, that situation changed. Now almost every team effectively had a Sticky Hold Pokemon, except the immunity to item manipulation was completely incidental and just an added bonus on top of an already-powerful Pokemon. Such Mega Pokemon would be able to freely switch into a 20 base power Knock Off all day, so Knock Off's base power was bumped up to 65 to give it at least some teeth against them.

I dunno why they also gave it a damage boost against knockable Pokemon. Maybe to further incentivize switching into Mega Pokemon?
 
The talk of the Dark type in the Unpopular Opinions led me to wonder why Knock Off was buffed to the extent it was in Gen 6. It was already an incredibly powerful move in previous gens. What changed that would lead to such a drastic change?

Mega Evolution

Before Gen 6, if you clicked Knock Off, you were going to permanently cripple a Pokemon by removing their held item. Barring specific counterplay like Sticky Hold or maybe Mail (sources unclear if Mail blocked Knock Off, though it doesn't really matter since its main utility was blocking Trick) there was nothing your opponent could do to prevent something from losing its item if none of their Pokemon had already been Knocked.

In Gen 6, that situation changed. Now almost every team effectively had a Sticky Hold Pokemon, except the immunity to item manipulation was completely incidental and just an added bonus on top of an already-powerful Pokemon. Such Mega Pokemon would be able to freely switch into a 20 base power Knock Off all day, so Knock Off's base power was bumped up to 65 to give it at least some teeth against them.

I dunno why they also gave it a damage boost against knockable Pokemon. Maybe to further incentivize switching into Mega Pokemon?
Probably because of Megas and Z-Crystals. That's probably why Knock Off is not a TR, TM, or Tutor in Gen 8, its super spammable due to the lack of items that cannot be removed.
 
I dunno why they also gave it a damage boost against knockable Pokemon. Maybe to further incentivize switching into Mega Pokemon?
My guess is they simply overestimated the value of giving that much power to Knock Off, perhaps assuming more "consumable" items like Berries would be common.

I get a distinct sense Pokemon's design teams just kind of make things up as they go along or don't have the best communication across all fronts (see the wonderful handling of Ghost and Dark type stat vs STAB distribution until the Gen 4 split), so I also wonder if they expected the Gems would still be in the post Gen 5 games. Given how powerful those were they were, they could be assumed common and thus more Pokemon would would lack a Knockable item (Z-Crystals behave in essentially the same way for the individual mons, but with a trigger button instead of mandatory use of the matching move type). If you assume Knock Off to have a more even split of cases for its two BPs, then it averages around 80 BP, which isn't that outlandish for a generally neutral move on mons running it for damage rather than JUST removing items.
 
Probably they knew about it well enough and just liked the design sense of "you get one VERY strong attack against a given Pokemon, but after that it's jsut a mediocre attack". Might even like having a very punishing move for using items, silly though it may be.

I suspect they continue to like it so much which is why rather than nerf it (make it weaker, make the damage buff less, get rid of the damage buff, etc), likely seeing the change in item landscape if nothing else, in Gen 8 they just limited its distribution.
 
Barring specific counterplay like Sticky Hold or maybe Mail (sources unclear if Mail blocked Knock Off, though it doesn't really matter since its main utility was blocking Trick)
Mail did block Knock Off but it didn't really matter, as pre-Gen VI Knock Off didn't get a power boost when it removed an item, and having Mail was basically the same thing as having no item except for the Trick immunity.
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
Was just thinking earlier about how comparatively early on in the series cross-generational evolutions were abandoned.

I can see a quick rebut to that coming: they haven't been abandoned. Gen 8 has given us a slew of them, from species like Obstagoon and Cursola in Galar to the likes of Wyrdeer, Sneasler, and Overqwil in Hisui, and Gen 9 will probably give us more. Cool. But they don't really count. At least, not for what I mean. In conceptual terms it's pretty plain to me that those Pokemon are considered regional variants first, cross-gen evolutions second.

What I'm talking about is the cross-gen evolutions Gen 2, 3, 4, and 6 gave us. Just straightforward "this Pokemon has a new relative now" add-ons like Crobat, Kingdra, Azurill, and Yanmega.

Yes, obviously regional forms weren't a thing back then. But there's no reason it should be either-or. There's ample space for both these things to co-exist, much in the same way as some regional forms are completely distinct evolutionary lines (Grimer, Rattata, Zigzagoon, et al) and others are simply branched evolutions (Weezing, Marowak, Raichu, Exeggutor).

Part of it may have to do with the overall shift in design ethos. Lots of people thought that Alomomola would be a Luvdisc evolution but of course it couldn't have been, because part of Gen 5's modus operandi was to break with the previous gens entirely and do its own thing. And when you're shifting regions it makes sense to come in with a new design team, who will have from-scratch concepts rather than building on the old ones. Gen 2 was designed as a sequel to Gen 1 so naturally it added on. Also, there are less "filler" Pokemon now, in that even weak or single-stage Pokemon tend to have some sort of niche to make them stand out. So there's less need for evolutions.

But still. It's just odd comparing the huge amount of cross-gen evos from earlier gens to now. Every time that the new games arrive and get stripped down by hackers people tend to ask "any new evolutions?" on leak threads and while yes, Scarlet and Violet might bring new evolutions they'll almost certainly be regional ones. But wouldn't it be cool if they just unexpectedly threw something like Thievul or Pincurchin a new evolution too?
 
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Probably inspired by feedback from DP (something we know they took pretty seriously considering how Platinum turned out) honestly.
I don't think it entirely coincidental that we went from a generation composed to a ton of cross-gen pokemon to a generation of entirely new pokemon

And after that honestly I think they just wanted a combination of:
1. wanting to do something different. Mega Evolutions, Regional variants, both of these feel like general "what else can we do with old pokemon beyond new evolutions?" To that extent you could carry that theme over to the regional evolutions.
2. With generations trending smaller (likely due to the move to 3D, though they've never commented on it), they want to emphasize more new Pokemon than old. Even in SWSH there was only 6 and LA added another 6 (also Enamorus), so I think it still tracks.

e: And if we want to be cynical regional evolutions leaves open the ability to just cut them moving forward
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

On to new Horizons!
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I can see a quick rebut to that coming: they haven't been abandoned. Gen 8 has given us a slew of them, from species like Obstagoon and Cursola in Galar to the likes of Wyrdeer, Sneasler, and Overqwil in Hisui, and Gen 9 will probably give us more. Cool. But they don't really count. At least, not for what I mean. In conceptual terms it's pretty plain to me that those Pokemon are considered regional variants first, cross-gen evolutions second.

What I'm talking about is the cross-gen evolutions Gen 2, 3, 4, and 6 gave us. Just straightforward "this Pokemon has a new relative now" add-ons like Crobat, Kingdra, Azurill, and Yanmega.
I would actually personally argue in terms of the Gen 8 evolutions that Wyrdeer, Kleavor, and Ursaluna count as "regular" cross-gen evolutions in the same vein that Gen 2 and 4's cross-gen evolutions are. Those three in particular are by all means "this Pokemon has a new relative" add-ons to old Pokemon, as they are not evolutions of a regional version of Stantler, Scyther, and Ursaring, but rather a straight up new evolved form of the Stantler, Scyther, and Ursaring we know. I can understand what you're getting at with most of the Gen 8 evolutions not necessarily being in the same boat as older cross-gen evolutions, and for the vast majority of them, that's true that they are regional variants. But there are three who still more or less are in the same boat of "this Pokemon has a new relative now" add ons in the same boat as the likes of Kingdra or Electivire: Wyrdeer, Kleavor, and Ursaluna are more or less that because they are the evolved forms of the original mon themself, and are pretty much the only three "traditional" cross-gen evolutions that have been introduced in years. Granted, it's a small amount compared to Gen 4, but it's something.

Considering one of them is based on using a move, and two of them are item based, it's likely they will remain as permanent new members of their evolutionary lines for all of their future appearances, and I imagine Psyshield Bash will remain a part of Stantler's moveset from here on and the Black Augurite and Peat Block will return in any game that has Scyther and Teddiursa. Granted, the method to evolve them may change, in that Scyther will need to be traded holding the Black Augurite to become Kleavor in a traditional mainline title, and Ursaluna may become "level-up Ursaring while holding a Peat Block under a full moon", and Stantler may just become "level up while knowing Psyshield Bash", but I imagine they will always have the ability to evolve into these new forms no matter what.

Part of it may have to do with the overall shift in design ethos. Lots of people thought that Alomomola would be a Luvdisc evolution but of course it couldn't have been, because part of Gen 5's modus operandi was to break with the previous gens entirely and do its own thing. And when you're shifting regions it makes sense to come in with a new design team, who will have from-scratch concepts rather than building on the old ones.
Gen 2 was designed as a sequel to Gen 1 so naturally it added on. Also, there are less "filler" Pokemon now, in that even weak or single-stage Pokemon tend to have some sort of niche to make them stand out. So there's less need for evolutions.

But still. It's just odd comparing the huge amount of cross-gen evos from earlier gens to now. Every time that the new games arrive and get stripped down by hackers people tend to ask "any new evolutions?" on leak threads and while yes, Scarlet and Violet might bring new evolutions they'll almost certainly be regional ones. But wouldn't it be cool if they just unexpectedly threw something like Thievul or Pincurchin a new evolution too?
I think the fact that Gen 5 itself introduced the Eviolite may also play a factor as to why they haven't introduced any straight up cross-gen evolutions since. Aside from BW1's gimmick being that it is an extremely self-contained experience with just its new roster of mons, the Eviolite is coded to be compatible with Pokemon who can still evolve. Obviously this applied to every previously existing cross-gen mon at the time since by the time of Gen 5, every mon who had a cross-gen evolution was already recoded to be not fully evolved in a prior generation so were instantly compatible with the Eviolite from the start. However, with the advent of this item, this means any mon who was already fully evolved by that point was programmed as "fully evolved" and thus incompatible with Eviolite, and I am not sure how the coding for it works but they might not have wanted to mess with the coding in the scenario that a Pokemon coded as fully evolved gains a new evolution and thus has to be recoded as not fully evolved and thus Eviolite compatible. Maybe they also had apprehensions about how a Pokemon gaining the ability to use Eviolite would have an effect on and influence their viability in the competitive metagames. If a mon who was fully evolved at one point suddenly now has the ability to boost its own defenses, that might be something they feared would make some of them too strong. Of course, this is all speculation, and any possibility could arise, but I do think the Eviolite item existing may have played a part in why fewer traditional cross-gen evolutions have been a thing since: after all, the only one after that in Gen 6 was Sylveon, who was an alternate evolution to one of Eevee's many evolved form, and there was no need to recode a mon to NFE since Eevee was already capable of evolving anyway, and only recently have they bucked the trend by bringing three traditional evolutions with Wyrdeer, Kleavor, and Ursaluna.

Moreover, I also get the feeling that after Gen 2, having cross-gen evolutions in Gen 4 was a thing because that was really one of Gen 4's gimmicks and something they felt was a distinct part of Gen 4's identity. The fact that Gen 4 introduced so many of them and they comprised the bulk of the dex makes me convinced that in addition to the gender differences thing, the new evolutions was a Gen 4 thing mainly and they felt that that's something that makes DPP unique to itself: after all, it was in the region that has a Professor who studies evolution, thus making it a part of Gen 4's gimmicks.

I also wouldn't assume we'd get regional evolutions in Gen 9 either. That seems to be a focus of every other generation mainly, as the only ones that did it in any capacity are 2, 4, and 8 (and 6 I guess if you count Sylveon). The fact that we got regional evolutions in Galar likely was a push towards hinting the existence of a new Sinnoh game (ie PLA) coming next after SwSh, and I don't think that is guaranteed to carry over to Scarlet and Violet. I do think we will get new regional families but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that we'll see new evolved forms to Gen 9's regional forms just yet, they might even try something different considering their weird and bizarre philosophy with rotating ideas and reinventing the wheel ad infinitum with every generation.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
To be honest, as green_typhlosion sorta alluded to, in terms of needing an evolutionary relative to feel "complete" most of the really really dire cases were covered in Gens 2 and 4 anyway. With the GS beta we even know that quite a few Gen 4 cross-gens were refurbished from Gen 2 ones that didn't make the cut (Leafeon, Tangrowth, Lickilicky). Like, as much as we complain now about stuff like Girafarig needing something extra, can you even begin to fathom a world where Aipom, Nosepass and Golbat can't evolve? Cuz that's what those mons had to deal with for years after their creation. There's still work to be done (Ledian, Luvdisc and Volbeat/Illumise pls), but for the most part the remaining overly weak in-battle mons can do fine with stat/movepool buffs, e.g. Lumineon getting Roost in PLA. Wyrdeer and Ursaluna both represent the kinds of cases where cross-gen evos are best justified: The former was for a Pokemon that desperately needed a full refresh simple stat/movepool buffs could never accomplish while the latter had a really inspired concept for a predecessor that didn't really "need" an evolution but also doesn't mind it.

There's more I wanted to say but R_N and Scrafty largely covered the extra points I would've made. I don't think the absence of cross-gen evos for a while was ever a response to anything or a loss of confidence in the concept, just Game Freak wanting to focus on other ideas throughout the generations seeing as after Gen 4 most of the heavy-duty stuff was taken care of.
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
I would actually personally argue in terms of the Gen 8 evolutions that Wyrdeer, Kleavor, and Ursaluna count as "regular" cross-gen evolutions in the same vein that Gen 2 and 4's cross-gen evolutions are. Those three in particular are by all means "this Pokemon has a new relative" add-ons to old Pokemon, as they are not evolutions of a regional version of Stantler, Scyther, and Ursaring, but rather a straight up new evolved form of the Stantler, Scyther, and Ursaring we know. I can understand what you're getting at with most of the Gen 8 evolutions not necessarily being in the same boat as older cross-gen evolutions, and for the vast majority of them, that's true that they are regional variants. But there are three who still more or less are in the same boat of "this Pokemon has a new relative now" add ons in the same boat as the likes of Kingdra or Electivire: Wyrdeer, Kleavor, and Ursaluna are more or less that because they are the evolved forms of the original mon themself, and are pretty much the only three "traditional" cross-gen evolutions that have been introduced in years. Granted, it's a small amount compared to Gen 4, but it's something.

Considering one of them is based on using a move, and two of them are item based, it's likely they will remain as permanent new members of their evolutionary lines for all of their future appearances, and I imagine Psyshield Bash will remain a part of Stantler's moveset from here on and the Black Augurite and Peat Block will return in any game that has Scyther and Teddiursa. Granted, the method to evolve them may change, in that Scyther will need to be traded holding the Black Augurite to become Kleavor in a traditional mainline title, and Ursaluna may become "level-up Ursaring while holding a Peat Block under a full moon", and Stantler may just become "level up while knowing Psyshield Bash", but I imagine they will always have the ability to evolve into these new forms no matter what.
That's fair. I will just qualify that I haven't played PLA in its entirely so others will be more authoritative on matters pertaining to it than me. I'd been under the assumption that all the new mons in the game were regional variants (except Enamorus of course); to me they all seem like specifically regional evolutions, but future games might clarify that. If they're just straight-up evolutions, then yay and my post is moot.

I think the fact that Gen 5 itself introduced the Eviolite may also play a factor as to why they haven't introduced any straight up cross-gen evolutions since. Aside from BW1's gimmick being that it is an extremely self-contained experience with just its new roster of mons, the Eviolite is coded to be compatible with Pokemon who can still evolve. Obviously this applied to every previously existing cross-gen mon at the time since by the time of Gen 5, every mon who had a cross-gen evolution was already recoded to be not fully evolved in a prior generation so were instantly compatible with the Eviolite from the start. However, with the advent of this item, this means any mon who was already fully evolved by that point was programmed as "fully evolved" and thus incompatible with Eviolite, and I am not sure how the coding for it works but they might not have wanted to mess with the coding in the scenario that a Pokemon coded as fully evolved gains a new evolution and thus has to be recoded as not fully evolved and thus Eviolite compatible. Maybe they also had apprehensions about how a Pokemon gaining the ability to use Eviolite would have an effect on and influence their viability in the competitive metagames. If a mon who was fully evolved at one point suddenly now has the ability to boost its own defenses, that might be something they feared would make some of them too strong. Of course, this is all speculation, and any possibility could arise, but I do think the Eviolite item existing may have played a part in why fewer traditional cross-gen evolutions have been a thing[.]
I was actually wondering if someone was going to mention this as soon as I posted. They do seem to be averse to retconning stuff like this if they can avoid it (I posted a while back about retconning abilities and I think a similar logic applies). I think you might be right on the money.


I also wouldn't assume we'd get regional evolutions in Gen 9 either. That seems to be a focus of every other generation mainly, as the only ones that did it in any capacity are 2, 4, and 8 (and 6 I guess if you count Sylveon). The fact that we got regional evolutions in Galar likely was a push towards hinting the existence of a new Sinnoh game (ie PLA) coming next after SwSh, and I don't think that is guaranteed to carry over to Scarlet and Violet. I do think we will get new regional families but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that we'll see new evolved forms to Gen 9's regional forms just yet, they might even try something different considering their weird and bizarre philosophy with rotating ideas and reinventing the wheel ad infinitum with every generation.
No, possibly not. I just meant that if we get new evolutions for pre-existing Pokemon at all, they're more likely to be regional ones than otherwise.

There's still work to be done (Ledian, Luvdisc and Volbeat/Illumise pls), but for the most part the remaining overly weak in-battle mons can do fine with stat/movepool buffs, e.g. Lumineon getting Roost in PLA
Lumineon gets Roost in PLA, what the fuck? (Yes I know it's based on a butterfly fish but it can't actually fly...)
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
Gen 2 front sprites that are just recolored Gen 1 front sprites.
Ah, right. No, I don't think there are others. So many of the RBG sprites are bizarre and off-model. And I've just compared all the Yellow sprites to the GSC ones - looks like Exeggutor is the only one, oddly enough. EDIT: Actually no, tell a lie, Butterfree's RB sprite looks pretty identical to its Gold/Crystal sprite.
 
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QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
The sprites for Caterpie and Voltorb are almost exactly the same between Blue and Gold (and by extension Crystal), but I think Exeggutor is the only one where it was the Yellow sprite that was used.

Though, a lot of Kanto Pokémon sprites in Gold have poses very similar to, and quite possibly remakes of, sprites from Blue. Marowak is one example that comes to mind.
Voltorb is similar but not quite the same, the eyes are drawn differently. Given the simplicity of its design it's probably a different sprite altogether rather than a copy.
 
In addition to the ones that others have mentioned, there's also Staryu and Starmie.

View attachment 415659View attachment 415660
View attachment 415661View attachment 415662

Their sprites in Gold/Crystal are basically the same as their sprites in Red/Blue, but with some minor tweaks and updated colors, similar to Exeggutor.
A few of their bits match up but most of them doesn't. They might have used the Gen 1 sprites as bases but Staryu and Starmie also have the Voltorb problem where there's just not a ton of ways to pose them.

staryu.gif
starmie.gif
exeggutor.gif
 

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