How so?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Announcement NatDex OU Suspect Test 1: The Bigger the Better [DYNAMAX BANNED]
- Thread starter Funbot28
- Start date
- Status
Because this applies to virtually any overpowered thing in any game. Why ban anything when both players can abuse the broken thing? Why ban Akuma in Street Fighter 2 turbo? Both players can always play him if hes REALLY that bad.
You are also only looking at this in terms of what specific mons become busted as a result of dmax, instead of what playstyles becomes busted.
Then shouldn't you ban the specific fighter instead of banning the entire mechanic that makes him broken?
what playstyles become busted? Before dynamax was a thing, stall teams were completely busted. A team with Ferrothorn, Toxapex, and a selection of others from chansey, clefable, rotom-wash, mandibuzz, reuinclus, quagsire and so on was basically indestructible as long as you knew how to play and had nothing but spare time and patience.
1. Because of what I said about it being about playstyles.
2. Your assertion that "before dmax stall was completely busted" is absolute bullshit lies. Gen 7 stall was weaker than it had ever been at the time. It was VIABLE to be sure, but to call it broken? Laughable.
3. As for what playstyles becomes busted, its pretty clear the hyper offense benefits the most from dynamax.
I'm not sure I follow. If you're referring to the first part of my response, are you suggesting banning a character, or a whole playstyle you don't like?
I don't mean to be rude, but were you using a different username then? I looked up your history on showdown and you didn't seem to have played before gen 7.
And it's pretty clear stall benefits the most from removing dynamax. I don't want to turn this into a whole "Stall VS. HO: Which is objectively the more fun playstyle?" debate because it's completely subjective, but even so, it doesn't feel very fair to ban dynamax across all metagames just to favor one specific playstyle that's not everyone's cup of tea
wrink, you can find arguments for banning dynamax that address many of your concerns in this post here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dynamax-is-banned-from-ou-explanation-information.3657917/
Even though both players have the option to dynamax, it becomes a guessing game as to when each will and many turns can become 50/50s. It doesn't matter how many pokemon that are considered 'broken' with dynamax you ban, these situations will always occur as long as dynamax is allowed. Being forced to use dedicated immunities to multiple typings is a burden on teambuilding, completely relies on prediction and doesn't even work with some that don't have immunities (eg. flying). Your mention of prankster mons with sub as counterplay exemplifies the lengths some will go to to try and stop dynamax abusers from snowballing, and still doesn't completely prevent some mons from doing so. It can be argued that dynamax is even worse here than in regular OU, with many more prominent abusers that become virtually impossible to check collectively, even with certain pokemon like ditto.
Your argument that 'stall will be broken if dynamax is banned' goes against Smogon's tiering policy and is irrelevant. If stall does become overcentralizing, then you can simply ban mons that make it problematic, as happened in late ORAS when MSab was banned a few months after Hoopa-U was.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dynamax-is-banned-from-ou-explanation-information.3657917/
Even though both players have the option to dynamax, it becomes a guessing game as to when each will and many turns can become 50/50s. It doesn't matter how many pokemon that are considered 'broken' with dynamax you ban, these situations will always occur as long as dynamax is allowed. Being forced to use dedicated immunities to multiple typings is a burden on teambuilding, completely relies on prediction and doesn't even work with some that don't have immunities (eg. flying). Your mention of prankster mons with sub as counterplay exemplifies the lengths some will go to to try and stop dynamax abusers from snowballing, and still doesn't completely prevent some mons from doing so. It can be argued that dynamax is even worse here than in regular OU, with many more prominent abusers that become virtually impossible to check collectively, even with certain pokemon like ditto.
Your argument that 'stall will be broken if dynamax is banned' goes against Smogon's tiering policy and is irrelevant. If stall does become overcentralizing, then you can simply ban mons that make it problematic, as happened in late ORAS when MSab was banned a few months after Hoopa-U was.
Last edited:
It's not about favoring one particular playstyle, it's about certain ones becoming unviable as a result. Mostly defensive ones in this case.
Also I have many, many accounts and no, this name is not linked to any of them. Where I come from we value what somebody has to say based on the merit of their statements and knowledge alone rather than arbitrary numbers next to their name. If I could post anonymously I would.
I agree with you that dynamaxing does completely re-orient the meta, but it doesn't change the fact that banning it altogether with no alternative puts players who want to use it in a dilemma. Perhaps its not my place to make suggestions since im far below the GXE cutoff, but instead of voting to either keep it or remove it completely, shouldn't there be a third option to create a separate metagame for National Dex OU With Dmax?
I'm a bit surprised that Dynamax is already being brought up in suspect in this format for this reason. I figured the presence of Z moves and Mega Evolutions would make it less overpowered here. To be clear, I haven't played this format yet. I'm just a little surprised since this format was advertised as the format where we could use things like this.
There are some things people can do to minimize the snowball impact of Dynamax, such as Yawn, Sticky Web, Trick Room, Paralyses, Prankster, Haze, and Power Swap. There should be more powerful attacks to KO offensive Dynamax pokemon in this format.
As I have not tried the format myself yet, I can't really talk more than what my initial impression was from hearing about it. And I could very easily be wrong about said impression. Still, I hope people explore all potential counterplay before banning it here. Dynamax seems wildly unpopular on here for a number of reasons, but it has some upsides. I would hope people aren't championing banning it because they don't want to deal with it and/or haven't adequately explored all options for doing so. Most of what I have seen here is just people talking about abusing the mechanic to get to reqs, just so they can vote ban. Is that really the right mindset to have? Are you really giving it a chance in this tier?
The last thing I will say for now is this: I feel like the intentions of this format were different from standard ladder. This was supposed to be the place where we could use all these gimmicks and pokemon that were not available in the normal ladder. Am I wrong about that? If not here, then where? I understand that is not how Smogon approaches bans. However, I do think this format should be looked at at least a bit differently because of what it represents.
First, as much as I hated stall (especially the notorious Mega Sableye/Chansey core that I have been begging for at least a suspect test), I can't say it was broken. It was certainly viable, but they weren't downright invincible. Granted, I'm pretty sure people used it more to get their opponents to forfeit upon appearance; I mean, nobody wants to play a battle that could go 50+ turns. But for those who had the immense resolve and confidence to stay that long such as myself, we could begin to break them and dismantle them little by little. By the time one mon has been removed from their team, the once firm wall begins to crumble (and they forfeit by the time they realize that some opponents are happy to break their strategy). Hell, I run one competitive team consisting of Mega Beedrill, Torkoal, Umbreon, Venusaur, Zapdos, and Conkeldurr, and despite the fact that not all of these guys are OU, they do stunningly well especially against stall.
Now, about Dynamax. You suggested banning a specific fighter instead of banning the entire mechanic; this encapsulates that you would rather ban almost half of the OU tier. There's Landorus-T, the Tapus, Ultra Beasts, Genesect, Hoopa-Unbound, Excadrill, and a certain number of legends that actually made the OU cut. All of these are great dynamaxers from my experience, and I'm pretty sure there are plenty more. As much as I hated the initial three categories I mentioned, banning half the tier is absurd.
And assuming we ban those guys, it won't solve the problem. It simply means other Pokemon whose Dynamax potential was once overshadowed can now rise to the occasion. And at some point, people are going to complain that those guys are broken, and then the ban cycle will continue. Banning certain Pokemon because of the mechanic is not healthy, especially if it's going probably going to lead into a cycle like that.
Finally, simply because both Pokemon get access to Dynamax doesn't mean that both people are granted equality, Take a scarfed Landorus-T with EQ, Stone Edge, Fly, and possibly Explosion. On the other side, assume a focus sash Butterfree with Bug Buzz, Hurricane, some other random coverage move, and Quiver Dance. When both Dynamax on the field, we can see that Landorus-T is clearly going to have the advantage. Even if we consider G-max Butterfree, which could either inflict poison, paralyze, or sleep on the Landorus-T, Lando-T could not give a damn about poison as it's going to win the trade next turn or could remedy the paralyze with a Max Airstream. Sleep is one exception, but I'm pretty sure Lando-T would use a Max Rockfall to critically damage the maxed Butterfree and let the Sandstorm finish off the Max. Also, the sleep status is not guaranteed; there are two other statuses that have an equal chance of activating, both that Lando-T does not mind. This also heavily depends on who either uses the Dynamax first or makes better use of it; essentially, it's a very shaky 50/50, something that competitive Pokemon isn't thrilled with.
Look, I absolutely hate stall, and I get that some Dynamax mons are more broken than other Dynamax mons. The truth is, trying to create complex bans instead of banning the entire mechanic is going to create more consequences than you think. As a strong stall hater, stall looks so friendly in comparison to the Dynamax mechanic. There's a whole ton of other problems and ridiculous features that Dynamax mons possess that other people have already talked about countless times, and you seem to be oblivious to those when you're defending the mechanic by proposing a complex ban on certain mons; the broken features provide more than enough reason to ban the mechanic as a whole.
I don't mean to be rude here necessarily, but you really should attempt to play the format before stating that Dynamaxing might be ok. A lot of the counterplay that you mention is hard to fit on a standard team or just straight up doesn't work, and the fact that it might be slightly more predictable is offset by the sheer amount and effectiveness of abusers that we have. We have all the mons that made it broken in OU, plus terrors like Kartana, Salamence, Zygarde, the whole lot. Defensively checking a lot of dynamax mons is exceptionally difficult, and has proven to be. A lot of good players have been trying to crack the code of beating dynamaxing, but what they've come up with is largely just "Run Ditto" which isn't fun nor balanced.
And there's a format for keeping everything around. It's called Nat Dex AG.
if that many pokemon can abuse it then how are things unbalanced? if everyone's equally powerful isn't that what you call balance?
Because the only way to feasibly cover every single dynamax threat in a tier with so many good Pokemon like this is to run Ditto.
A reason that a lot of bans happen is because they constrain teambuilding. Ditto being almost required on a lot of team styles these days is incredibly constraining and a good reason to pull the trigger on a ban.
but it's not just "Run Ditto", we've listed over a dozen viable solutions on this page: counter-maxing, sub stalling, status crippling, protect stalling, debuffing, immunity walling, hamboning, leeda'hosen wearin', scotsman-from-samurai-jack-quotin'... ill stop now.
and what if we just want to play an OU tier?
as I said before, there's no reason we can't have a third option where we just split off dynamax OU
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
We will not be creating a separate NatDex OU tier with Dynamax allowed. Creating several ladders with different things allowed / disallowed will clog up the server and is an idea best left not entertained. Please keep discussion relevant to the current National Dex OU metagame solely and avoid basing one's vote on theoretical "side-metagames". Thank you.
And while you are doing half of those the dynamax abuser is just accruing boosts through the protects and subs and just getting ready to flatten your whole team. It's never as clear cut as just sub or protect spamming because of the secondary effects that dynamaxing provides. Sure, you can use protect as something uses Max Knuckle, but it still gets the attack boost, and an intelligent player isn't going to let their dynamax mon, which is often tailor made to abuse the mechanic, blunder into a status condition. Switching around immunities isn't the best option either because arguably the best Max Move in the game, Max Airstream, has no immunities, and most of our best dynamaxers have great coverage and break choice lock. In practice a lot of these countermeasures just don't work. And sure, you can counter-max, but when one of the only reliable counters is itself there's a huge problem.
in that case, what alternative do we have?
Fair point, but I think you missed mine. I am attempting to play the format. I just won't have time until a bit later. I originally wasn't prioritizing this over regular meta because I didn't realize this was happening until just now. So I wanted to give my impressions.
I am not definitively stating that Dynamax in this tier is broken or not. I think I already admitted that I don't know enough yet to make any definitive judgements on this tier. However, I don't really like the way the discussion in this thread is painting it because it seems to me like people are just snowball banning from OU rather than looking at this tier as its own thing. If I'm wrong about that then I'm wrong. I could be reading too much into it.
I don't think things being hard to fit on a standard team is a good argument here because it suggests a refusal to adapt to one of the meta defining mechanics. Yes, it's true that there is a point past which certain things become oppressive to team building. However, there is also a point where you have to adapt to the most defining mechanics in the meta game. The thing is Dynamax also let's you fit more on a team like Terrain or Weather. So it does give you some extra team building options.
I guess we could discuss what potential counterplay works or what doesn't. To be fair, I probably jumped the ball with at least Sticky Web because many Max Airstream pokemon are flying type. I will come back to this thread when I get experience in this tier with greater thoughts on all this. For now, I mainly just want to make sure counterplay is actually being examined in depth before we mindlessly mob vote to yeet it again. This is the last place we really have on here for Dynamax.
Come on, now. You know very well that a tier with 1HKOs and Uber level (or even higher) legendaries will be entirely different from a functionality standpoint. You can't pretend it is close to the same thing. And since we now know that there is going to be no extra tier for people who like the mechanic, the people who actually want to use Dynamax in a tier that isn't spammed by the most OP legendaries will have to go elsewhere. It's a pretty big deal.
I'm not pretending its the same thing, I'm saying that those tiers are where mechanics that are considered banworthy belong. That's literally the purpose of their existence; they are by definition banlists. If something gets banned that's where it goes. Like it or not, if its banned then that is going to be your option (and standard dex Ubers) to play a metagame with Dynamaxing.
Look, I wanted to like this mechanic, I really did. But I've been playing this tier a lot, and it's definitely way too much for the tier in my opinion. It should be banned if you ask me. For the good of the tier it should go imo. I feel bad for the people that like the mechanic but I'd rather have a balanced tier than a fundamentally broken one that keeps the new, fun gimmick.
Pretty sure most people here understand how bans and the tier system work. That doesn't make it a viable alternative like you seemed to allude to. It's the equivalent of saying, "Tough. Deal with it", except worse because you present a false solution. Most people who play Tiers on Smogon do it for a reason. I don't personally ever play Anything Goes on any of my accounts because I think it's dumb. Just piling up the gen 8 defining mechanic with everything else that is broken in the franchise is a big choice to make. You are going to chase away the people who like it. Maybe you don't care or think it's still for the best overall. I don't know. But I'm not seeing a lot of willingness on this site to make viable alternatives in general. So this tier is it.
Now I'm not saying you 100% can't ban it if it really is that broken. I'm not even saying if you are right or wrong at this point. But it's still pretty early on. What I'm trying to say is you better be damn well sure it is that broken and have examined every potential option if you are going to lose it from this tier as well with zero alternative or attempts at adaptations.
Are we really busting out the tired as hell "but we dont KNOW for sure it's broken yet!" Arguments?
No, you are saying YOU dont know ways in which it ISNT broken, but are assuming it MUST not be and we just haven't figured it out yet and thus resort to such vague notions.
Well I hate to break it to you, but we have. It's called the age of the internet. We effectively have tens of thousands, if not HUNDREDS of thousands of hours of collective gameplay combined and the vast majority of competent players (in this case literally every single competent player with no exceptions) agree that it is clearly unhealthy.
What, do you expect us to suffer through this garbage for another year just to reaffirm what everyone is already convinced of?
It's also clear to me that you care much more about things that are important from a casual perspective than a competative one, such as the completely unfounded philosophy that because something is the generation's main mechanic we shouldnt ban it despite it being clearly broken because it will chase off the verlis fans.
Last edited:
Gentle. Disagreeing is natural, but there's no need to get impolite about this.
I think it's reasonable to want an ND metagame without dynamax, but given that pretty much every tier except AG has banned it, saying that AG is the only choice for 20% of the user base and that no discussion of other alternatives will be entertained feels... less reasonable. I'm going to end my discussion of this matter here since it's off topic, but is there a better place to discuss the hypothetical metagame I mentioned so I don't break board rules in the future?
I dont think its unreasonable at all to want a seperate dmax metagame, what is unreasonable is the constant assertion that there's just NO WAY we could possibly know for sure that dmax is broken yet being used as an actual argument. Thats what I was addressing. Shit's wrong and frustrating.
No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not making any definitive statement on if it is broken or not like you are. I'm not even saying it can't be broken. For the record, I think banning Dynamax from regular OU was ultimately the right decision. That's a different metagame. In theory, there should be a lot more options to go through in Nat Dex and I'm not really seeing much discussion about any of that. So I'm concerned if this is being done for the right reasons.
You don't sound like you hate to break anything here. For clarity, how much of this sample size is from this metagame specifically? If you are just trying to snowball the same conclusions from other tiers, then you are proving my point. That's for the wrong reasons. If you truly have exhausted all the counterplay options available in THIS metagame then that's a different story. Needless to say, I'm a bit skeptical on that based on the discussion so far. One way or another, I'll revisit this topic soon when I have more information.
I had no idea a pokemon game would cause you so much "suffering." Clearly you don't like the mechanic. That's ok. But you shouldn't force your bias onto others who may feel differently.
I also said nothing about any timetable whatsoever. All I said was we should examine every alternative before we yeet it from the last real tier that it is left in. How long would that take? I don't know. I highly doubt it would take a year. It seems to me like it might take just a little longer than two weeks, though. This is why I was surprised this was happening here quite so soon. And before you distort my point again, no, I'm not saying anything definitive on outcome or timetable.
Nothing I actually said seems clear to you. Your recent posts are overly emotional and full of straw man arguments. Like verlis fans? Really? It just further proves my point that I think some people are doing this out of preconceived bias instead of objectively looking at it for this tier. The reason why I said generation defining mechanic is because it is an important decision. Not because that means you can't ban it. I never even said that. I just said you better be sure and have explored every option first. And that is because this is the last place it hasn't been banned from. Let me ask you a question:
Why does this tier exist? Why does the National Dex metagame exist?
There are no Z moves or Mega Evolutions in gen 8. Almost all of the pokemon not in gen 8 are in gen 7. Technically, you could get nearly everything you want from gen 7 OU right now without having to deal with Dynamax. Unlike with Anything Goes, that actually is a fairly reasonable alternative for those who want to play excluded pokemon, Z moves, and/or Mega Evolutions with no Dynamax. It already exists, too. Technically, I could tell you to go play gen 7 OU and then you wouldn't have to "suffer" so much.
Can you at least admit the magnitude of banning Dynamax from the last real tier that actually allows it? Again, I'm not even saying you can't do it. I'm just saying you need to be careful about it and do it for the right reasons because it is a big deal.
Who exactly made this point? I don't think you are responding to what you think you were responding to.
- Status