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Announcement NatDex OU Suspect Test 1: The Bigger the Better [DYNAMAX BANNED]
- Thread starter Funbot28
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Honestly, it's a tough call... 9 out of the 10 games I lost were all to dynamax, but then like 15 out of my wins were from ditto and 20+ from dynamax. Its a very centralizing meta that's caused by dynamax being allowed. It suffocates the tier. But then it prevents long games caused by stall. It offers a way to break through bulky cores. But does that then make it too powerful? All I know is... you go Landorus T with that adamant Earth Plate, you click SD and you dynamax and win if they don't have ditto. Again, very centralizing. Thats bad. That said, we all know that balance and stall will be at an all time high immediately following this ban that i expect. Are you prepared for that? If so, then lets ban it and open up the meta for changes and see what unfolds.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, the idea that stall was somehow too powerful in gen 7 is complete and utter bonkers. Natdex will just be gen 7 with 30 or so new mons (many of which destroy stall) once dmax is banned anyway.
Also, balance is the biggest brain playstyle when compared to boring hard stall and drooling mongo-hyper offense.
Also also, whether or not banning something will make something else too powerful is never relevant in a suspect, as you can always do another suspect for the thing that becomes broken in its place (not that stall will ever recover with mons like dracovish and darm-g running around in tandem with old obscene breakers like Mega Mawile and Medicham)
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Not just Dracovish and Galarian Darmanitan. I'm pretty sure stall will have to be wary of Mega Blastoise; a +2 SpA boost from Shell Smash allows it to 2HKO Chansey with Aura Sphere. Not to mention that the +2 Dark Pulse is going to be very useful against Galarian Corsola. Wide Lens Cinderace with its Libero ability is going to enjoy some fun as well. And Barroskewda is probably just as terrifying as Dracovish with access to Aqua Jet.
Made the reqs just in time. I feel like Batman would always vote to ban the injustices dynamax causes.
Team I used: https://pastebin.com/GgVJjwEc
This replay shows how easily it is to set up and win.
This replay shows how it is possible to outplay Dynamax. But this relies heavily on 50/50s, which is never good.
Team I used: https://pastebin.com/GgVJjwEc
This replay shows how easily it is to set up and win.
This replay shows how it is possible to outplay Dynamax. But this relies heavily on 50/50s, which is never good.
Attachments
For those of us who are too trash to have reqs, when we will get the results of the vote?
Usually the results will be confirmed in a Policy Review voting thread before then being posted to the thread. If the amount of ban voters already exceeds 60% then the vote will take a few hours after that, but usually the voting period takes about a week to determine if it isn't found within that period, due to a large amount of voters who abstained.
So, I've been playing around in the natdex ladder for a couple weeks now, and still am in the belief that dynamax isn't as broken as everyone makes it seem.to be. If you know what your doing it's quiet easy to play around it or counter it and it's especially good to counter big offensive threats that would otherwise sweep through people's team if they don't have the right counter, also I find dynamaxing fun and creative as well as challenging which I like. Sure it can win games but it's definitely not broken. And i would be upset if dynamax were to be banned everywhere. As that just ruins the gen 8 atmosphere imo. So yeah, I'm for dynamax to stay at least in the natdex tier where you can have a lot of counters unlike in the gen 8 ou Tier where the counters are very limited.
When/where can we vote
Personally, I've never had an issue with stall, for ORAS it was Gardevoir, Gen 7 Earth Plate Lando T and in Gen 8, when the time comes, i'm sure we'll find our "Stall Breaker" we r most comfortable with on our teams. That said, its frustrating for those who can't handle the patience it may take. WHEN the ban takes place, that'll leave room for much growth in the meta. My vote may go either way but the end result will be the same and it's a welcome one. All i'm saying is, the meta will be unsettled in the wake and it will be an interesting time to say the least.
I'd be very interested in hearing what those extra counters are. But if Dmax does stay, a lot of mons like Kartana are going to need a quickban. IMO there isn't that much extra counterplay, but there is LOADS of extra abusers to the point that trying to counter individual Dmaxers becomes impractical. So either Ditto becomes 100% useage, or the whole meta boils down to HO Dmax abuse. Feel free to prove me wrong though (please don't say Sturdy Juice)
Well, I may have just been lucky, but I rarely ever struggled against dynamaxed mons and usually easily stall then out or outplay them through predictions and then just counter with my own dynamax or just regular counter. I've played several games already and not once have used a ditto in the ladder. And I tended to struggle more against things like scarf dracovish that ohkos almost anything or shell smash blastoise who I often only am able.to take down because of dynamax as otherwise both would often just straight up 6-0 any team if use. So I find those two, especially dracovish to be more broken then dynamax as without those two just easily sweep through entire teams on their own. Also I rarely struggles against kartana as well, as long as you have a fairly physical bulky fire attacker kartana is not a threat, and it never posed a threat to me. And the same goes for most other mons I played against, so yeah. I stay in the opinion that dynamax is not broken and definitely possible to play around. And if it gets banned I am hoping there at least will be a way to still play natdex ladder with dynamax Mon, as I wanted to try out the gmax mons. So that's what I'm hoping for. Either for dmax to stay or it getting its own format for those who enjoy dynamax and don't think it's broken.
Ok, a physically bulky Fire mon. The most physically bulky Fire mon that got tiered last gen is Volcanion. And Volcanion is not a Kartana check.
+2 252 Atk Kartana Max Overgrowth (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Volcanion: 346-408 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
The other options are to use Mega Charizard X or an unmon like Torkoal or Turtonator. But even if you run them, all your opponent has to do is see them in team preview and not Dmax Kartana. That's the fundamental issue with Dmax: whatever check you run for your opponent's mon, a decent opponent WILL just Dmax something else. The fact you don't have to commit to a Dmax abuser in the teambuilder is just too much flexibility for the game to handle. Especially when the criteria to abuse Dmax is "have a flying move on a mon". Random things used as defensive tools like Torn-T and Corviknight can and will take your team apart with Dmax. Then there's the possibility your opponent simply isn't running Kartana, in which case you've either 1. Committed yourself to Sun in a meta where Rain rules 2. Wasted a teamslot 3. Used a suboptimal Mega. And that's without things like Lando-T that with 3 moves can have 2-3 safe switch-ins in the game while Dmaxed and can run coverage to nail those switch-ins. Or things like Hawlucha that already were top sweepers in Gen 7. And let's not even get into ignoring choice lock, immunity to flinching and Destiny Bond etc, breaking Protect...
Edit:Just want to point out something else that hasn't been bought up that's dumb: Thanks to HP Flying becoming Max Air, every single special attacker in the game that feels like it can boost their speed in Dmax. And HP is 110/120 BP in Dmax so power isn't an issue.
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As I said, I haven't really battled any dmax kartana yet really as I've Ben struggling more to get past dracovish and shell smash blastoise. I generally don't build teams to counter certain mons on a ladder and more just build teams around a mon, which are megas and gmax mons ATM as I'm currently building teams for every mega and gmax Mon and then try them out on the ladder. And some of my most common dmax checks that wall most attacks are milotic, gliscor, ferrothorn and even hitmontop. As long as you scout properly and predict the right moves you don't have much to worry about, or counter with your own dmax and waste one or two turns through max guard. And I've battled dmax Lando t a couple times, it's strong don't get me wrong but it's not broken. Gliscor walls it pretty well and so do other Mon, and any fast Mon with an ice move shuts Lando t down anyway. So it also often hasn't been an issue for me to get past. And the choice breaking is situational, it does make trick-scarf a bit less viable yes, but you generally often don't want to dmax a choiced user because it loses the boost and then is not as much of a threat during the dmax as most mons do more dmg when banded/specs then if they dmax. And I've also already won matches without using dmax at all even some where my opponent did. So it's definitely manageable if you have a balanced team and good cores and resistances for a good variety of types.
So where’s the voting thread?
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Why is it that people who literally admit they arent experienced or knowledgeable also take a stance that assumes they know more than their contemporaries? Like, imagine sincerely believing something so blatantly wrong like "gliscor walls dmax lando-t" while simultaneously saying things like "its DEFINITELY manageable" as if you would know any better.
Also, if you havent run into any dmax kartana, you straight up havent played Natdex. It is far and away the strongest mon in the meta right now
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I never said that I'd know more. I just am saying what I've been seeing so far. And I've been playing natdex for the last couple weeks, and rarely saw a lot of kartana. Lando t is still around a lot tho. That's one Mon I see a lot for sure. Genesect is also seen a lot. And I'm playing competitive since 2 years or so. Either way. I stay with my opinion that dynamax isn't as broken as everyone makes it seem to be. And that's my opinion and not a statement. I'm just hoping that if it gets banned there still will be a way to play it normally. As I'd definitely hate to just ban the main gameplay mechanic of gen 8. And I definitely like dmax a lot more then z-moves. Still hate z-moves and would.prefer dmax over them anytime
This is why a Water immunity is on every decent team RN. Try Seismitoad.
The problem is most Gmax mons are garbage. In fact, with stuff like G-Max Zard, it's actually worse than its Dmax form, because Max Moves are busted. Note: this does not make Gmax balanced, it just makes it inferior to Dmax. Yes keeping Gmax has been suggested by loads of people. No it's not a good idea, as it centralises the game around the few decent Gmax mons like Grimmsnarl.
Uhh. Milotic is literally only good for checking G-Darm. It's pretty bad at face-tanking Max Air spam.
Gliscor's primary strength is its ability to resist residual damage, not burst damage like Z moves and Dmax. It also is weak to the spammed Max Water move, as well as a water weakness being terrible in general RN for a defensive mon.
Now we're getting somewhere. Ferro has decent defences and can cause residual damage and paralyze. But he has a terrible Max Knuckle weakness that allows many Dmax abusers to boost up and kill him at the same time. Plus in Nat Dex, loads of mind can use HP Fire specifically for him. While he can wall an unprepared sweep, the sweeper will break him eventually. And he'll usually need another teammate to revenge the opponent.
... This a joke right? clicks Max Airstream Ah well never mind. Yeah, Hitmontop is sadly that garbage. What does he even resist again?
This is totally reliant on prediction, which at the end of the day, is educated guessing. Defensive Dmax has already been discussed many times. It doesn't work unless your prediction is spot-on, and leaves you much worse off after Dmax as you can't Recover etc. Worth noting that Life Orb recoil and Leftovers recovery is effectively halved in Dmax, further favouring the attacker.
+2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Max Airstream (130 BP) vs. 244 HP / 52 Def Gliscor: 364-429 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
See above. And yes, this is standard defensive Gliscor. HP EVs max Poison Heal effect, and Gliscor also needs Speed and SpDef.
Any fast mon with an ice move shuts Mega Ray down anyway. Yes, checks and counters exist. This does not stop the mon being broken.
Ok, you miss the point totally here. Imagine you predict Specs Tapu Lele's Moonblast. You switch into Ferrothorn and it eats the Moonblast easily. Then you try for Leech Seed on the obvious switch, but instead Lele Dmaxes and kills you with Max Knuckle or Max Flare. So if you predict that, you should switch yourself or Dmax Ferro. But then Lele can stay in and Moonblast the switch-in, or your opponent switches and you waste a Dmax (since a Dmaxed Ferro is pretty useless). So your reward for outplaying your opponent by predicting a Choice move is to get yourself stuck in a 50/50. This is not what a competitive community wants. Players should get the advantage from outplaying their opponent. But Dmax flips that on its head.t
This is not a notable achievement. Sorry. Yes, you can win battles without Dmax. Yes, it is possible to waste your Dmax.
I assume that's why the meta is entirely Hyper Offense RN.
Yeah but I don't want to run seismitoad on every team I use just so I don't get 6-0d by stupid dracovish. And there aren't that many other viable mons with water immunity so there's not even a good variety.
I mean yeah most gmax mons are pretty bad, but they are still usable and I like the creativity behind some of them. And id just find it a massive shame to ban them all, it just seems so wasted to me and I don't like that
I can't really confirm that as m milotic usually walls a lot of moves and is able to recover stall most dmax mons.
Same.with gliscor, it rarely gets beaten down and it's always been my most reliable wall along with Milo on my mega venu team.
Not really a joke, hitmontop often helps me beat things with intimidate and I've been using hitmontop a lot and it's usually very reliable. Of course it doesn't live a max airstream as well, that's like saying ferro Is bad cuz it doesn't live a max flare.
And here's ferro. Yeah you usually either have to scout for that or do the the best with the 50/50 I guess. I can agree and understand that it's tough for newer players and such and that it's probably best to split natdex into dynamax and no dmax to keep it fair for both sides. That's what I would be voting for as that way people who dont like it can play without it and this who don't mind.it can stay in the dynamax tier. If that's a possibility?
I mean true, but what decides then whether a Mon is to broken or not?
Hm. What I would do is, simply keep.playing and make a note to scout for that in the future. I guess, that's what I would do then.
Yeah I know,. I was just trying to say that it's not impossible to win games if you don't dmax your mons.
Hm I guess so, I did see a lot of HO as well as some TR teams. And I guess I'm a bit biased there as I'm an HO oriented player myself and not a big fan of pure stall. So I guess I'm a bit biased there.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-ou-dynamax-suspect.3658629/
Voting Thread is up, let me know if I missed anyone.
Voting Thread is up, let me know if I missed anyone.
The reason you aren't seeing Kartana is anyone with Kartana tends to not stick around the bottom of the ladder. You can play Dmax in Nat Dex AG, Doubles OU and Ubers. It's balanced in those tiers. And you hate Z-moves but you like 3 turns of Z-moves with upsides that don't need an item. Uhhh.
Jellicant, Gastrodon, etc, etc. Even Vaporion. Nat Dex OU gives us Volcanion too. There may be a Dracovish suspect at some point in the future.
This is not something that is considered when trying to balance a competitive tier. Not should it be. This argument applies equally to anything unworthy EG: "I think it's a shame to ban all the Arceus forms because that means the less broken forms get unused". And like I said, the few decent ones like Grimmsnarl would have massive useage, a clear double standard when you look at your stance on Water Absorb. Should everyone HAVE to run a Gmax mon or overcomplicated checks to it?
+2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Max Airstream (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Milotic: 492-579 (124.8 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Genesect Max Flutterby (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Milotic: 396-466 (100.5 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (+2 from Download and Shift Gear)
+1 224+ SpA Magearna Max Lightning vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Milotic in Electric Terrain: 396-468 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Mag gets a KO with Max Lightning triggering Soul-Heart or used Calm Mind and either has Tapu Koko as a teammate or just uses Max Lightning twice)
So it's a totally unreliable check to physical attackers, and special attackers can boost their way past it with Dmax. Not to mention every time it comes in, Kartana gets a free switch-in. Which is a precursor to losing badly.
Again, Gliscor's best asset is its ability to shrug off lots of little hits. It's terrible at checking Dmax, and has a history of failing against boosted-up mons.
Well, Max Air is only the best Max move that every good Dmax abuser spams. The difference here is Ferrothorn is great at taking hits that are not called Max Flare, while Hitmontop isn't good at taking moves not called Max Air. Ferrothorn uses Leech Seed and Gyro Ball to dissuade opponents from setting up on it, while every flying mon in the game sets up on Hitmontop for free.
+1 252 Atk Kartana Max Overgrowth (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 198-234 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not to mention I'd like my Fighting type physical check to be able to stop Kartana.
+1 252 Atk Hawlucha Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 344-408 (113.1 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (doesn't even need to Dmax)
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Max Airstream (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery (you know you're bad when a pivot is setting up on you lol)
You might say it's unfair that I'm picking mind that have super-effective STABs. But that's just because pure Fighting is a terrible defensive type. And 90% of sweepers will be able to just nail you with coverage.
this has also already been suggested and turned down on the basis of fracturing the playerbase. There is Nat Dex AG and Ubers for playing with Dmax in singles, not to mention Doubles OU where Dmax is much more balanced.
Something about Mega Ray having 780 BST for starters. But the main reason a mon becomes broken is when it can beat its checks and has little to no counters (EG: Mega Ray can kill Ice mons with V-create or Fire Blast). Dmax causes this to apply to far too many mons, so rather than banning 30+ mons, we've elected to try and ban it instead of those 30+ mons. Fair?
It would be so nice if our opponents let us have time to do that. Dmax makes this far too risky (one incorrect prediction can lead to a snowball sweep that ends the game there) and impractical (How are you supposed to "keep playing" in front of a Specs Lele that could be about to break your defensive backbone?). Dmax rewards short-term opportunism rather than long-term planning which could be invalidated by a single incorrect prediction. Seeing a pattern? Dmax breaks so much of the skill we've come to value. While there is some skill in its use, there is way to much variance for Dmax to be balanced in 6v6 singles.
This is a point for banning Dmax, not against it. Because you can use mons like Mega Gross and Mega Lop to break answers to your Dmax sweeper allowing the Dmaxed mon an easy ride to victory. And if they hide their check to your Mega to try and save it for defending a Dmax sweep, the Mega rips them apart. Offense stacked on Offense making all defensive checks buckle eventually.
Last thought i wanted to share before Dynamax is gone.
While i had the tendency to vote for Ban ever since the Suspect started, I often found myself asking myself whether a metagame with Dynamaxing being allowed would be more interesting to play.
I dont view Dynamaxing itself as the huge problem, but everything that happens after. Dynamaxing in the first turn for example is pretty useless. You want to weaken your opponents pokemon at first and then use Dynamax as a way to clean up. It always worked similar to Celebrate victini for example, which is pretty useless for the most part of the game, but when the z attack is used at the right moment it enables you a way to burst big holes in the opponents team and speed up the game a lot in your favour.
But Dynamaxing not only serves as a game cleaner, but also as a way to get out of static gameplay. A lot of games, especially in a format with Tornados, Toxapex and Tangrowth, end up in stalemate position, where both players just switch around millions of times, until one of them makes a mistake or loses a bunch of "rock-paper-scissors"-like predictions in a row. Dynamaxing in the right moment serves a solution by suddenly transforming the slow defensive game into a quick offensive game, in which the pokemon, that originally created that stalemate position can now be taken out.
The real problem occurs once the first pokemon has been taken out from dynamaxing. If the opponent is in the disadvantageous position now, his only option is most of the time to switch in Ditto now and Dynamax aswell. As already stated before Ditto is a really unhealthy pokemon in general when it comes to competitive gameplay, as Ditto creates tons of speedties, that you cant allow yourself to escape from by switching out.
And the next real problem occurs once either the Ditto or the pokemon that dynamaxed in the first place has fainted. Cause now one of the players has a nearly unbeatable fully boosted pokemon on the field ready to burst everything thats left.
Basically this all leads to two conclusions. While Dynamaxing is a great way to speed up the game and make use of an advantageous position, it also creates speedties and can quickly become unstoppable. Basically in a format with dynamax being allowed we could also just play until the pokemon of one player only have on average 50% of their health left and then toss a modified coin, that decides in 60% of the time in favour of the dominant player and in 40% of the time in favour of the other player.
This being said, Dynamaxing was a great idea, but GF completly failed to balance it, which is why it has to go.
Even though its unlikely, i wish that dynamaxing returns in a more balanced way someday. One idea is to make the dymaxed pokemon automatically faint once Dynamax ends. But theres definitely other options aswell to balance it.
While i had the tendency to vote for Ban ever since the Suspect started, I often found myself asking myself whether a metagame with Dynamaxing being allowed would be more interesting to play.
I dont view Dynamaxing itself as the huge problem, but everything that happens after. Dynamaxing in the first turn for example is pretty useless. You want to weaken your opponents pokemon at first and then use Dynamax as a way to clean up. It always worked similar to Celebrate victini for example, which is pretty useless for the most part of the game, but when the z attack is used at the right moment it enables you a way to burst big holes in the opponents team and speed up the game a lot in your favour.
But Dynamaxing not only serves as a game cleaner, but also as a way to get out of static gameplay. A lot of games, especially in a format with Tornados, Toxapex and Tangrowth, end up in stalemate position, where both players just switch around millions of times, until one of them makes a mistake or loses a bunch of "rock-paper-scissors"-like predictions in a row. Dynamaxing in the right moment serves a solution by suddenly transforming the slow defensive game into a quick offensive game, in which the pokemon, that originally created that stalemate position can now be taken out.
The real problem occurs once the first pokemon has been taken out from dynamaxing. If the opponent is in the disadvantageous position now, his only option is most of the time to switch in Ditto now and Dynamax aswell. As already stated before Ditto is a really unhealthy pokemon in general when it comes to competitive gameplay, as Ditto creates tons of speedties, that you cant allow yourself to escape from by switching out.
And the next real problem occurs once either the Ditto or the pokemon that dynamaxed in the first place has fainted. Cause now one of the players has a nearly unbeatable fully boosted pokemon on the field ready to burst everything thats left.
Basically this all leads to two conclusions. While Dynamaxing is a great way to speed up the game and make use of an advantageous position, it also creates speedties and can quickly become unstoppable. Basically in a format with dynamax being allowed we could also just play until the pokemon of one player only have on average 50% of their health left and then toss a modified coin, that decides in 60% of the time in favour of the dominant player and in 40% of the time in favour of the other player.
This being said, Dynamaxing was a great idea, but GF completly failed to balance it, which is why it has to go.
Even though its unlikely, i wish that dynamaxing returns in a more balanced way someday. One idea is to make the dymaxed pokemon automatically faint once Dynamax ends. But theres definitely other options aswell to balance it.
I just dislikes z-moves because I find them boring and nothing but a broken move that you can throw out any time and get a kill basically. That's z-moves for me where max moves are more strategic as they actually do stuff other then just damage. And I like that.
And I guess. I haven't dedicated hours into trying to get to the very high ladder as I don't care so much about it and just more care about having battles that are challenging and trying out stuff.
Yeah I know there are a few options, but it then just gets so crowded with them and I don't like to be forced to run a specific type of Mon just so I don't get 6-0d by a stupidly broken Mon. And I hope so, because it's stupidly broken.
Hm I always saw the arceus thing more as an pkmn specific gimmick rather then an gameplay mechanic like megas. But I guess that's a fair enough point. I can see and understand why people want dmax to be banned and I'm not going to go out of my way to stop that, if they go they go and that's just how it is. I'd just find it a shame but if it has to be then it's probably for the best. And natdex Ubers exists already? Has it been added recently? Because sd only has been showing me natdex out and ag as formats?
Well I guess my pkmn tended to live most hits because of me being at the more lower ladder and people not properly putting evs into their mons. That's the only explanation I have then.
Yeah I can see that, and if it's voted that way I'll accept it anyway. In the end I just want to have fun playing pkmn and I'll have fun either way be it with dmax or without.
As for the last two points. Hm yeah I guess I can see what you mean there. And I can see that that's not good for the format. So, it is probably for the best then if dmax goes. Even if it's still a shame imo. But yeah I can see the issue. And I understand it
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