Announcement NatDex OU Suspect Test 1: The Bigger the Better [DYNAMAX BANNED]

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Now i think this mechanic is definitely broken and deserves its suspect test in national dex. Once you dynamax you're basically extremely hard to take down and you can set up yourself easily. For example in my team, I used mons like Volcarona and Zygarde wich are 2 horrible dynamax abusers. Volcarona can summon the sun and the psychic terrain while Zygarde can use coil and max quake to become unkillable. Another common dynamax abuser is Kartana which don't need sword dance anymore cause of max nuckle, and it has acces to max airstream to boost its speed.
And these are just common dynamax abusers. You can also play mons in a way that the opponent can't simply imagine like in my team a Thundurus physical with defiant and acces to max airstream, max lightning, and max knukle. You set up your entry hazards, you switch to take the defog and gg you won ! If mega and z moves could balance that i wouldn't support the ban howewer z moves do nothing cause dynamax = 3 z moves
and mega generally can't kill dynamaxed mons by themselves, you often need to sacrifice at least 1 mon. The only global counter to dynamax are ditto and unaware wall. The problem with ditto is that while it's alive, you can't start to make any set up moves and it's boring.
If you try to have counter to the mains mega and dynamax pokemons without ditto the problems are:
1) you can't because there are too much threats (all the gen), your team can't counter all the threats you know
2) and you don't know all the threats
All that you can do (and have to do) is carrying an HO, kill 1-2 mons of the opposite teams and dynamax or dynamax to make a breakthrough and destroy the rest of the opposite team. It's quite sad to know that viable teams are only offensive ones. All that I want is a meta with all the pokemons including mega but without dynamax because i think a match needs to be won by a team and not by one pokemon.
Capture d’écran (2).png
 
Judging from this post, I realize I was rather under a delusion to expect you to know basic pokemon knowledge, let alone competitive skills. You seem to be under the impression that Z-status moves never miss, Trick Room turns into a priority move in conjunction with Prankster, and you clearly do not understand how Purify works, which doesn't cure and heal yourself, but the opposition.

I have to admit, I was genuinely curious to see what methods of counterplay you would come up with, but quite frankly was horribly disappointed after seeing this post, in which you even have the audacity to insult the playerbase with concluding that either you are a genius for coming up with these sets or we are just competitively lacking because we did not discuss these forms of 'counterplay'. I hate to burst your bubble, but you are seriously lacking in competitive skills yourself if you believe any such form of counterplay even merits a discussion in a competitive environment.

Don't bother wasting your time responding. I can't take you seriously after this.
I guess you could say it was BOLD of you to assume he knew what he was talking about.

I'll see myself out.
 
There is too much to respond to individually, so I'm just going to speak generalities. You aren't going to find anything if you are already convinced ahead of time that you won't. That's just confirmation bias. It seems like most of you either don't understand what I was saying, or just flat out don't care. I was not saying Dynamax should or shouldn't be banned in my last few posts or even most of the ones before that. I didn't even want to go that far. I was merely trying to see if counterplay had actually been explored like was claimed. The answer is apparently no, even though you all say it's yes, because most of you even admit you aren't willing to look at gimmicks. You've already made up your mind before you tested it that those gimmicks couldn't work in any context, no matter what they are or happen to be.

People claim Dynamax is such a presence. At what point do you try to adjust to the elephant in the meta instead of crying about it? At what point is it worth looking outside the box of conventional wisdom to see if you can maybe find something? I don't know if the point you would find would be enough to justify keeping Dynamax around. It might not be. But you all won't even try. And yet, you somehow still claim you have. This is a massive double standard and a lie. The idea that you just know so much about the metagame that you couldn't learn or discover something new prevents you from perhaps doing so. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

As I have said for now multiple times, the point of my sets were more about bringing up general strategies than they were the actual sets or sometimes even the pokemon themselves. I have now had several of you entirely miss the point and go after say Yawn Audino or whatever, as if that's the only set or pokemon that could possibly run Yawn. Sure, my sets were rushed and I was trying to get it out. I made several bad mistakes in the post looking to go for quantity when I should maybe should have went for quality. I admit, all this could have been much better optimized and presented. Somehow, I don't think it would have mattered when the prevailing mindset is one where everyone is looking for any excuse to be dismissive. You can't win against that.

Sadly, there are times where members of this community can be quite close minded. One of the oldest tricks in the Smogon player playbook is to look for even the slightest mistake, and use that as an excuse to claim that the person has no idea what they are talking about with metegame knowledge and couldn't even have a slight point. Several of you pulled this card even as I did better than you all at posting counterplay overall, in spite of my obvious errors. You are all too eager to entirely jump past the actual point to any flaws you can dig your hands into, which is really convenient for people who refuse to even try to go that far themselves. I'm really tired of the blatant hypocrisy.

...

I don't know if I'm going to bother with this Suspect Test anymore. I could do a protest vote but it wouldn't matter. I already said my peace. It's clear the majority of voters are going to ban it. You know what? I have no problem admitting that might not even be the wrong decision. It certainly seems like it's for the wrong reasons. Unfortunately, I never got as far as a decision of my own on this because there was a great wall of close mindedness that prevented a full exploration of the topic. Shame.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
There is too much to respond to individually, so I'm just going to speak generalities. You aren't going to find anything if you are already convinced ahead of time that you won't. That's just confirmation bias. It seems like most of you either don't understand what I was saying, or just flat out don't care. I was not saying Dynamax should or shouldn't be banned in my last few posts or even most of the ones before that. I didn't even want to go that far. I was merely trying to see if counterplay had actually been explored like was claimed. The answer is apparently no, even though you all say it's yes, because most of you even admit you aren't willing to look at gimmicks. You've already made up your mind before you tested it that those gimmicks couldn't work in any context, no matter what they are or happen to be.
You already defeated yourself right here. Nobody should be forced to resort to gimmick strategies in an attempt to counterplay any strategy. If gimmicks are your only way if handling Dynamax, then what are you trying to argue here? Surely you must realise that healthy counterplay to Dynamax simply does not exist and the negatives that it places on the metagame far outweigh any benefits you could come up with.
 
There is too much to respond to individually, so I'm just going to speak generalities. You aren't going to find anything if you are already convinced ahead of time that you won't. That's just confirmation bias. It seems like most of you either don't understand what I was saying, or just flat out don't care. I was not saying Dynamax should or shouldn't be banned in my last few posts or even most of the ones before that. I didn't even want to go that far. I was merely trying to see if counterplay had actually been explored like was claimed. The answer is apparently no, even though you all say it's yes, because most of you even admit you aren't willing to look at gimmicks. You've already made up your mind before you tested it that those gimmicks couldn't work in any context, no matter what they are or happen to be.

People claim Dynamax is such a presence. At what point do you try to adjust to the elephant in the meta instead of crying about it? At what point is it worth looking outside the box of conventional wisdom to see if you can maybe find something? I don't know if the point you would find would be enough to justify keeping Dynamax around. It might not be. But you all won't even try. And yet, you somehow still claim you have. This is a massive double standard and a lie. The idea that you just know so much about the metagame that you couldn't learn or discover something new prevents you from perhaps doing so. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

As I have said for now multiple times, the point of my sets were more about bringing up general strategies than they were the actual sets or sometimes even the pokemon themselves. I have now had several of you entirely miss the point and go after say Yawn Audino or whatever, as if that's the only set or pokemon that could possibly run Yawn. Sure, my sets were rushed and I was trying to get it out. I made several bad mistakes in the post looking to go for quantity when I should maybe should have went for quality. I admit, all this could have been much better optimized and presented. Somehow, I don't think it would have mattered when the prevailing mindset is one where everyone is looking for any excuse to be dismissive. You can't win against that.

Sadly, there are times where members of this community can be quite close minded. One of the oldest tricks in the Smogon player playbook is to look for even the slightest mistake, and use that as an excuse to claim that the person has no idea what they are talking about with metegame knowledge and couldn't even have a slight point. Several of you pulled this card even as I did better than you all at posting counterplay overall, in spite of my obvious errors. You are all too eager to entirely jump past the actual point to any flaws you can dig your hands into, which is really convenient for people who refuse to even try to go that far themselves. I'm really tired of the blatant hypocrisy.

...

I don't know if I'm going to bother with this Suspect Test anymore. I could do a protest vote but it wouldn't matter. I already said my peace. It's clear the majority of voters are going to ban it. You know what? I have no problem admitting that might not even be the wrong decision. It certainly seems like it's for the wrong reasons. Unfortunately, I never got as far as a decision of my own on this because there was a great wall of close mindedness that prevented a full exploration of the topic. Shame.
Your general strategies dont work either, regardless of what pokemon they are on. You are wrong from the most basic little thing you said to your overarching point, and people addressed this too, not just nitpicking your dozens of falsehoods and mistakes like you claim they do. There is no valid point that you are making. Whether you claim you tried to think up ideas for general strategies or specific sets, BOTH interpretations are WRONG.
Clearly you are just somebody who cannot ever admit when they were wrong about something and would rather insult the entire community who told you that you were.
You gonna see yourself out? Please f*cking do.
 
Bold School I’m kind of convinced that no competitive (or basic, for that matter) research was done with your sets, and that if any was done at all, it was done on the low ladder. Most of what I thought of saying was already said, but nevertheless, I feel as though it just proves how unhealthy Dynamax is for the meta (even if those did work, we’re running basically unviable gimmicks to try and “counter” it) and how much better off we are without it. (Yes, I put counter in airquotes due to it being pretty much uncounterable)
 
There is too much to respond to individually, so I'm just going to speak generalities. You aren't going to find anything if you are already convinced ahead of time that you won't. That's just confirmation bias. It seems like most of you either don't understand what I was saying, or just flat out don't care. I was not saying Dynamax should or shouldn't be banned in my last few posts or even most of the ones before that. I didn't even want to go that far. I was merely trying to see if counterplay had actually been explored like was claimed. The answer is apparently no, even though you all say it's yes, because most of you even admit you aren't willing to look at gimmicks. You've already made up your mind before you tested it that those gimmicks couldn't work in any context, no matter what they are or happen to be.

People claim Dynamax is such a presence. At what point do you try to adjust to the elephant in the meta instead of crying about it? At what point is it worth looking outside the box of conventional wisdom to see if you can maybe find something? I don't know if the point you would find would be enough to justify keeping Dynamax around. It might not be. But you all won't even try. And yet, you somehow still claim you have. This is a massive double standard and a lie. The idea that you just know so much about the metagame that you couldn't learn or discover something new prevents you from perhaps doing so. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

As I have said for now multiple times, the point of my sets were more about bringing up general strategies than they were the actual sets or sometimes even the pokemon themselves. I have now had several of you entirely miss the point and go after say Yawn Audino or whatever, as if that's the only set or pokemon that could possibly run Yawn. Sure, my sets were rushed and I was trying to get it out. I made several bad mistakes in the post looking to go for quantity when I should maybe should have went for quality. I admit, all this could have been much better optimized and presented. Somehow, I don't think it would have mattered when the prevailing mindset is one where everyone is looking for any excuse to be dismissive. You can't win against that.

Sadly, there are times where members of this community can be quite close minded. One of the oldest tricks in the Smogon player playbook is to look for even the slightest mistake, and use that as an excuse to claim that the person has no idea what they are talking about with metegame knowledge and couldn't even have a slight point. Several of you pulled this card even as I did better than you all at posting counterplay overall, in spite of my obvious errors. You are all too eager to entirely jump past the actual point to any flaws you can dig your hands into, which is really convenient for people who refuse to even try to go that far themselves. I'm really tired of the blatant hypocrisy.

...

I don't know if I'm going to bother with this Suspect Test anymore. I could do a protest vote but it wouldn't matter. I already said my peace. It's clear the majority of voters are going to ban it. You know what? I have no problem admitting that might not even be the wrong decision. It certainly seems like it's for the wrong reasons. Unfortunately, I never got as far as a decision of my own on this because there was a great wall of close mindedness that prevented a full exploration of the topic. Shame.
E76005B1-67A0-4F87-A645-6782A9F79BB0.jpeg

Please stop talking and get a grasp of the metagame first.
 
confirmation bias
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."
Now think of this. Regardless of if Dmax is in the meta or not, the top of the ladder will always be hyper-competitive. The people at the top of the ladder will always look for any edge they can get. That's why Shedinja and Avlugg saw usage at the very highest level in stall teams last gen. So you are accusing these individuals of deliberately not searching for new ideas for the sake of a suspect?
most of you even admit you aren't willing to look at gimmicks. You've already made up your mind before you tested it that those gimmicks couldn't work in any context, no matter what they are or happen to be.
Nah, looked, tried tested rejected 100 times over before you even got here. None of those sets are new, in spite of your lack of knowledge overwise. People just don't use them because they're bad. But then common sense says you shouldn't play a battle 5v6. And the fact you don't understand the mechanics you are discussing in places is hilarious. Not to mention you suggesting a doubles technique (fun fact:Dmax is balanced in doubles).
At what point do you try to adjust to the elephant in the meta instead of crying about it? At what point is it worth looking outside the box of conventional wisdom to see if you can maybe find something?
It's called running Ditto. We're already found it, but we're a bit sick of it. Why else would an untiered mon from Gen 7 get absurd usage? Sounds like we aren't the only biased ones.
But you all won't even try. And yet, you somehow still claim you have.
Maybe because we have, see Ditto.
the point of my sets were more about bringing up general strategies
The strategies themselves were flawed. I notice you mention the one example where I use a calc on the mon in question without mentioning the others where I made no mention of the mon in question unless it was tied to the strategy (Cursola is the only mon to get Perish Body). That's called cherry picking. I used that calc (with generous conditions) to show the flaw of the strategy at whole, ie: you have to take a hit to use Yawn.
I did better than you all at posting counterplay overall, in spite of my obvious errors
Ok then if it makes you feel better:
Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Transform
Dmax counter. I don't know why you think this is worth a whole song and dance. This is basically common knowledge. All you succeeded in doing was posting bad gimmicks that are just as good at checking Naga, Deoxys-A, or name any other broken aggro mon/setup sweeper. I would hardly call that a success.
This is a massive double standard and a lie.
I think you need to look in the mirror on that one. Did you seriously expect when you came up with those strategies that none of us would have seen them before?? Did you think we would suddenly say "Oh yes there is a counter we haven't found in 2 months of constant searching as a community, well done." You kept asking for someone to post counterplay when it is abundantly clear to anyone who has played the meta that there is none beyond Ditto. Just because we tell you your counterplay is bad, you immediately conclude we are all collectively wrong and you are right. Look in the mirror. The only person you're fooling is yourself.
 
There is too much to respond to individually, so I'm just going to speak generalities. You aren't going to find anything if you are already convinced ahead of time that you won't. That's just confirmation bias. It seems like most of you either don't understand what I was saying, or just flat out don't care. I was not saying Dynamax should or shouldn't be banned in my last few posts or even most of the ones before that. I didn't even want to go that far. I was merely trying to see if counterplay had actually been explored like was claimed. The answer is apparently no, even though you all say it's yes, because most of you even admit you aren't willing to look at gimmicks. You've already made up your mind before you tested it that those gimmicks couldn't work in any context, no matter what they are or happen to be.

People claim Dynamax is such a presence. At what point do you try to adjust to the elephant in the meta instead of crying about it? At what point is it worth looking outside the box of conventional wisdom to see if you can maybe find something? I don't know if the point you would find would be enough to justify keeping Dynamax around. It might not be. But you all won't even try. And yet, you somehow still claim you have. This is a massive double standard and a lie. The idea that you just know so much about the metagame that you couldn't learn or discover something new prevents you from perhaps doing so. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

As I have said for now multiple times, the point of my sets were more about bringing up general strategies than they were the actual sets or sometimes even the pokemon themselves. I have now had several of you entirely miss the point and go after say Yawn Audino or whatever, as if that's the only set or pokemon that could possibly run Yawn. Sure, my sets were rushed and I was trying to get it out. I made several bad mistakes in the post looking to go for quantity when I should maybe should have went for quality. I admit, all this could have been much better optimized and presented. Somehow, I don't think it would have mattered when the prevailing mindset is one where everyone is looking for any excuse to be dismissive. You can't win against that.

Sadly, there are times where members of this community can be quite close minded. One of the oldest tricks in the Smogon player playbook is to look for even the slightest mistake, and use that as an excuse to claim that the person has no idea what they are talking about with metegame knowledge and couldn't even have a slight point. Several of you pulled this card even as I did better than you all at posting counterplay overall, in spite of my obvious errors. You are all too eager to entirely jump past the actual point to any flaws you can dig your hands into, which is really convenient for people who refuse to even try to go that far themselves. I'm really tired of the blatant hypocrisy.

...

I don't know if I'm going to bother with this Suspect Test anymore. I could do a protest vote but it wouldn't matter. I already said my peace. It's clear the majority of voters are going to ban it. You know what? I have no problem admitting that might not even be the wrong decision. It certainly seems like it's for the wrong reasons. Unfortunately, I never got as far as a decision of my own on this because there was a great wall of close mindedness that prevented a full exploration of the topic. Shame.
Okay, I haven't had time to play this metagame either, because of IRL stuff. I understand, so I never really post here at all. But this, my friend, is probably the worst atrocity I have seen from you. Your "strategies" don't work, and no matter what kind of pokemon you have to put them on, they'll just fail. Everything you have said so far is nothing more than a shitty lie. Everyone has been addressing this, and I haven't stepped in because I don't want to risk getting infracted, but I have had enough of your shitty lies. You have made everyone, including me, furious, and we (not including myself) have told you "nicely" to stop and reconsider your points, but you just defend yourself with more and more shit. If you have to use some gimmicky shit to counteract something that's obviously broken, then that's not good.
You are nothing more than a liar, cheat, and a bully who refuses to learn his/her lesson and I especially hate those types of users. You're only fooling yourself.
You going to learn your f!cking lesson for once? YOU BETTER. I AM SICK AND TIRED OF YOUR SH!TTY LIES AND I HOPE YOU STOP THEM FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL, SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO FEEL SO UNHAPPY EACH TIME I LURK THIS FORUM.
 
check post above
As someone who is tormented by the fact of being at 70% GXE and losing due to my dumb ideas ("SD on the Mega Venasaur"), I have come to the conclusion that what you fail to understand is not what can counter Dynamax, but how effective the counter/check is in the metagame.

Let's say for example your team wants to be able to beat Kartana if it Dynamaxes. As many people who have played the tier know, Kartana is arguably one of, if not the best Dynamax abuser in the metagame. With it's numerous options, you'll have to consider what can counter it. And the answer is: nothing. Nothing can safely switch in on a Dynamaxed Kartana without risking either Kartana using Airstream and outspeeding to kill, Knuckle to boost it's attack or Overgrowth to set up Grassy Terrain for it's Leaf Blades. I'm not going to waste your time calcing all the damge Kartana can do, but it's safe to say that Kartana is a deadly Dynamax abuser.

With this in mind, we need to make a team that can handle Kartana. Therefore, I have taken the liberty of building a team that destroys our origami foe.
Rotom-Heat @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Volt Switch
- Defog
- Trick

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform

Conkeldurr @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Poison Jab
- Knock Off

Gengar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam

Victini @ Normal Gem
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Celebrate
- Flamethrower
- Stored Power
- Focus Blast

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Ice Punch
Now this team is sure to make our foe sad, with all of it's many ways to stop the dastardly sweeper. The problem is, as you can see is that while it can deal with Kartana well, it fails to check other users. And that's the issue with Dynamax checks, there's so many possibilities for sets with Dynamax. Perhaps Kartana won't Dynamax and be a Choice Scarf menace. Or the Salamence could suddenly Dynamax to live your Thousand Arrows and blast you with Wyrrymind. The point is, no Pokemon or no team can handle all of the Dynamax abusers, we can only check certain ones. And when something makes people resort to stupid checks (i.e Mega Ray, Marshadow, Naganadel, G-Darm), it's grounds for banishment.

If you're wondering why people are so aggressive with you, it's because people are done with this shit. They want to move on from this constant "but have we checked EVERYTHING?" mentality that you have going on(and honestly, don't expect every set to be tested, there's like 900+ Pokemon in NatDex OU). This has been discussed multiple times and people have responded with telling you why this mentality is broken, but instead of checking it you instead say that we are the ones at fault for not checking if Eviolite Gligar can check Dynamax Froslass.

Enough is enough. People are tired of saying the same shit over and over again, and frankly, you really need to play this tier more before saying shit like this. You're not finding a magic counter to this shit, it's not happening anytime soon. And if you're going to leave because people are "close minded", then that's no better than throwing a fit over losing a board game. Go away, we have a long year ahead of us, and we don't need a sore loser to give us migranes.

I'll try to finish REQS before 1/4, but I don't think it'll matter anyways since I want Dyna gone.
 
Capture.JPG

I'm pretty bad and still cruised to 79% GXE abusing the team N_Mareanie linked. If dynamaxing just gave the hp and different moves for the gigantamax pokemon to make them special (a la mega pokemon) I think it would be a cool mechanic, but the stat-boosting moves are ridiculous and have little to no counterplay besides "wait for them to be boosted and throw in your ditto". All the arguments have pretty much been repeated over and over so I won't add on to them...dynamax bad.
Also, you can't even skill swap a mon that is dynamaxed. In case that saves anyone from losing to a serp like i did.
 
I've given up. I keep trying, but Showdown likes to humor me by ripping 2% from my GXE every time I lose a battle in comparison to the 0.5-1% I gain from winning every battle, so the end result is that I NEVER reach the 79 GXE. It's way too goddamn high. And yes, you DID ask us to at least try but I honestly can't see any point in trying when the system is going to punish us that much. For the record, I got 73.2% GXE with 38 winning games and 18 lost games; proof is up on my "NXDYN Gigantamax" account.

This is the first suspect test I've ever participated in and I'm actually weeping. My eyes are blood-shot red, I think I lost a couple of pounds, and my parents are wondering if everything's okay with me. All because I decided to pour the entirety of my winter break into fighting a continuously losing battle. I initially tried this test with my best competitive team consisting of Mega Beedrill, Torkoal, Umbreon, Conkeldurr, Zapdos, and Venusaur. This team, which made the top 500 dozens of times, only found itself inevitably smashed by the click of a Dynamax button. For the first time, I had to ditch that team for a team that could actually work against Dynamax (thank you, N_Mareanie, by the way, it made things a lot more tolerable) and it was still rough. It really goes to show how restricted team-building must be. And the presence of Ditto on nearly every team (fun fact: all of my losses can be attributed to Ditto) forces me to play very carefully while the other mons just keep ripping me to shreds; the presence of Ditto and the fear of copied stats provides enough fear to fuck with people. And although not related, the metagame has become really toxic; I thought it was already worse than COD communities in Gen 7 OU, but I guess the Dynamax mechanic has really pushed the levels of arrogance in a lot of players.

Dynamax has way too many things going for it. The dynamaxer receives a double HP boost that can afford to tank even x4 effective moves, rips out >100 BP moves with secondary boosts/terrains/weather to boot, and can go through Protect. Moreover, it's not one, but three turns of this bullshit happening. I remember when my friends and I called out Dynamax as an inferior version of Mega evolution, and oh boy how wrong we were. It's busted as hell.

Then there are the immunities. It can't be flinched, can't be forcibly switched out, and it can't even be Destiny-bonded. The fact that you can't kill this through one of the best suicide methods in the metagame is absurd, and the other two factors in this already make it incredibly ban-worthy. If I also remember correctly, weight-based moves are also a huge no-go on dynamaxers, so yeah, make that four immunities.

There is no way to prove that Dynamax isn't broken, aside from the fact that it breaks stall. And as much as I hated to admit that it was fun breaking THOSE teams for a change, there is way too much going for Dynamax in comparison to that moronic stall core (a suspect test for that would be nice, but I think we can let that slide for now). Some of the proposed sets meant to break Dynamax are too specific and put quite the restraint on team-building, banning good Dynamax abusers isn't gonna solve everything as better Dynamax abusers will rise to the top, and the fact that Ditto has at least a 33% usage rate (Xerneas's usage rate in XY Ubers) goes to show that something is terribly wrong with the game. Shit, I don't even know why I even bothered with the test when the outcome of it was so goddamn clear. I'm stunned and pretty irritated that there were still people intent on trying to save this mechanic from the ban hammer (speaking of which, nice job, Vaboh, on exposing one of them; you made my day).

While I know that this test lasts to January 4th, I'm going to spend tomorrow lying in front of my Xbox One/Nintendo Switch rather than stab myself over a suspect test in which the results are conclusive. I honestly might drop Showdown for a couple of months; the strain it has had on my mentality is just brutal. It's a rare game that places me at the risk of rupturing my own blood vessels, giving me a stroke, or just downright make me physically ill. So unfortunately, I don't quite have the reqs, but I'm obviously voting BAN.

Now excuse me while I go eat a nutritious lunch for once starting this year.
 

GummyPotato

special little potato
dynamaxgood.png


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NEW PLAYERS THINK THA ITS FU
N

AND I CANT WIN WITHOUT IT

PLUS I HATE STALL

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO



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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
So I have not played a single match of nor do I intend to ever play National Dex OU unless I decide to make some stupid meme team or whatever that can't function in any of the normal Gen 8 formats due to missing Pokemon/moves. However, I do like to follow suspect threads quite a bit, even for formats I never play like Gen 7 NU, and I gotta say out of the handful of years that I have been partaking in this "hobby" of sorts this thread is by far the most volatile suspect thread I have ever seen. Discussion this repetitive, this uncivil, this downright insane on an otherwise pretty OK site for this sort of thing can only mean two things: Either the subsection of the playerbase this type of meta captures just so happens to be incredibly toxic or the thing at the center of the scrutiny is just that ridiculous to create so much rage and chaos. And somehow, I highly doubt it's the former.
 

Zneon

uh oh
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I agree with everything Yung Dramps said. Can we please stop now? Especially considering that the thread has become completely completely circular and repetitive over the past few days, it's best to stop the discussion where it is, and even more so when the suspect ends in 2 days and nothing new has been added to pro-ban or anti-ban arguments.
 
Alright

Im gonna be the guy and say it

This thread and discussion has devolved into cancer and mods should intervene / break shit up.

Its not even about dynamax anymore (sorry for the huge amount of mod ass-kissing that is about to follow). This is not a discussion. This is several people screaming the same six phrases at like two people who have no idea what they're talking about. Frankly, both parties are at fault here.

View attachment 216048
Please stop talking and get a grasp of the metagame first.
What? Why would you expose someone like that?




Okay, I haven't had time to play this metagame either, because of IRL stuff. I understand, so I never really post here at all. But this, my friend, is probably the worst atrocity I have seen from you. Your "strategies" don't work, and no matter what kind of pokemon you have to put them on, they'll just fail. Everything you have said so far is nothing more than a shitty lie. Everyone has been addressing this, and I haven't stepped in because I don't want to risk getting infracted, but I have had enough of your shitty lies. You have made everyone, including me, furious, and we (not including myself) have told you "nicely" to stop and reconsider your points, but you just defend yourself with more and more shit. If you have to use some gimmicky shit to counteract something that's obviously broken, then that's not good.
You are nothing more than a liar, cheat, and a bully who refuses to learn his/her lesson and I especially hate those types of users. You're only fooling yourself.
You going to learn your f!cking lesson for once? YOU BETTER. I AM SICK AND TIRED OF YOUR SH!TTY LIES AND I HOPE YOU STOP THEM FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL, SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO FEEL SO UNHAPPY EACH TIME I LURK THIS FORUM.
I think you're getting quite worked up here. The vast logical majority will vote to ban dynamax so I fail to see the problem here.
Ok. It's about that time. I've given people enough chances to deliver and I'm getting pretty tired of the general avoidance and excuses that exist in this thread. So I'll do it myself. But first, I want to say some things both to you and the thread as a whole:

1. Thank you theotherguytm for trying to engage in the discussion and putting the effort in your last response. I don't agree with everything you said. But I really appreciated the sincerity of that last comment.

2. In the end, a lot of the arguments to keep Dynamax around or not revolve around counterplay and the like. IThere are still a few discussion points I fundamentally disagree with in the last response. However, I don't want to dwell on them right now because I feel like the discussion won't go anywhere until we dress the bottom line, which is counterplay. Apparently, that's all on me now. My next two points will explain why I find this to be discouraging.

3. Since I first came on here with what were originally only minor (they have since grown) concerns at the time, I was repeatedly told there was basically no counterplay. I was also told that all these amazingly skilled, high ranked players had already done everything we could do and they all think Dynamax is broken. Getting information on the specifics here was much harder than I thought, even to the point where I started questioning if people really had anything...

4. I'm still confused why people keep putting it on me to discuss counterplay when all the claims were that people had already explored everything. The claims were even that all these great and skilled high ranking players had tried everything. What, you can't prove this? You all can't show me evidence of this? I have to do it myself? To be blunt, I didn't wait this long because I can't. I waited this long because I was hoping it was true that at least some of you really explored all the counter play options in the National Dex metagame like was claimed. If I have to do it myself, it more or less proves all that was basically a lie.

5. Finding counterplay shouldn't be rocket science. I'm not sure how many people on here know this or not, but Pokemon Showdown has this really handy sorting thing that allows you to search pokemon by types, abilities, and moves. You can even do multiple searches at once! Anyone with a basic understanding of pokemon mechanics can search to narrow down potential options quickly. I thought most people on here already knew this but I guess I shouldn't assume. If you didn't know, now you do.

6. Imagine a world where people complain for weeks about how Dynamax is OP and many people insist there is virtually no counterplay. Imagine a scenario where this was the case, but also many of the best, most skilled, and highest rated players had totally explored this fully. Allegedly. And people claimed this for days on end and with pages of text. Wouldn't it be embarrassing if some random guy came on here and did better than all those people in like 2 hours using Pokemon Showdown Teambuilder?

-----------------------

Examples of Counterplay Options:


1. Metal Burst


Aggron @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Endeavor
- Head Smash
- Reversal

This is a prime example of something you can only find in the Nat Dex metagame within gen 8. The idea is you come in and Metal Burst a Dynamax pokemon that is snowballing. Metal Burst is superior to Counter or Mirror Coat because it doesn't require specific damage types and doesn't fall victim to any type immunity. Heavy-Duty Boots ensures that Sturdy cannot be broken by hazards. For the record, there are other pokemon with both Sturdy and Metal Burst.

2. Yawn

Audino @ Leftovers / Normalium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Yawn
- Knock Off
- Last Resort
- Psych Up

Yawn is actually pretty good. Against Dynamax, you force the opponent to make a bad choice between switching or falling asleep. Since it forces a lot of swaps, it also often allows you to set up as well. It's not a hard counter but it stops a lot of snowball Dynamax situations. While I could have used nearly any set with Yawn to make this point, especially bulky ones, I thought Yawn + Psych Up would be really good at stealing the stats from opposing abusers. One thing to mention is that Normalium Z is a pretty good potential option here since Z-Psych Up is a full heal and Last Resort has amazing power for a Z move. This gives the build some flexibility.

3. Z-Hypnosis

Xurkitree @ Psychium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam

An example of a Z-move effect no one on here talked about. Since Z-moves never miss, you get a guaranteed sleep on anything that isn't immune to it. You also get a speed boost. This move could be used on either a bulky build or a sweeping set. I chose a sweeping set because I felt like it. In cases where a set like this is too slow, you could either try it on Infiltrator Crobat or more realistically a bulky build that could live a hit to get it off. A bulky build is likely better as a Dynamax check.

4. Perish Body

Cursola @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Hex
- Stealth Rock

This is something that is ironically also available in regular gen 8 OU. Perish Body is a pretty good anti-snowball ability in general. You limit the sweep. They either switch out in a couple turns or die. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of data I could find on Cursola in Nat Dex. So I just made this special defensive to counter those kinds of builds better. It might be possible to make a more generalist build that has some moves to help it stall out those 3 turns a little better. I haven't really bothered to explore it yet.

5. Unaware

Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Purify
- Curse

Unaware is a no brainer to check out if you want to counter stat opposing buffs. Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of Unaware pokemon and most of them aren't that good. Pyukamuku is the best I could find. This set can be like a poor man's version of what Aggron does. You can make it bulky enough to live most attacks and fire back a Counter or Mirror Coat. The advantage in using it is potential longevity from recovery.

6. Bulky Paralyses

Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
- Punishment
- Tri Attack

Paralyses is underrated. First of all, you cut the speed down to counter fast sweepers and some Max Airstream abuse. Second, there is a decent chance that the Dynmax pokemon can't move and they waste one or more of their precious 3 turns. Stalling out Dynamax is generally very difficult. With paralyses, it is a lot easier. Either way, this allows you to find some sort of check more easily.

When I initially made a build similar to this to be a slow pivot for a gen 8 OU team, I discovered that the incredible bulk of Type: Null lets it live most attacks even from Dynamax pokemon. You can switch into one, get off a paralyses and cripple most of them, then U-turn out to reset.

7. Prankster + Eject Button

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Eject Button
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Trick
- Spirit Break
- Bulk Up

I added this because it was already mentioned in this thread by someone else. This is one I did not have an opportunity to test yet. I know most phasing does not work. I have heard Eject Button does, and I believe it is confirmed in the first Dynamax mechanics thread, so I'm going to run with it until and unless I hear otherwise. I added Sucker Punch for Priority damage in case Grimmsnarl lives so it can directly abuse Eject Button. If not, it will need a teammate to do it. The set might be more effective with Thunder Wave instead of something like Spirit Break. Though going for paralyses first could be somewhat risky against a Dynamax pokemon, paralyses is still decent at crippling them to make it more manageable. It might be worth exploring.

8. Prankster + Trick Room

Whimsicott @ Figy Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Defog
- Stun Spore
- Memento

I have spent a lot of time on semi-Trick Room concepts this gen. Trick Room makes faster sweepers vulnerable and totally counters Max Airstream Abuse. The problem is getting it off. Gen 8 OU in particular had the problem of Trick Room setters often dying with all the offensive threats running around. In Nat Dex, you do have a lot of really good options for Trick Room compared to other metagames. However, it is still possible for some snowballing offensive threats to tear through any setter. So I came up with a little solution for that...

Prankster. Prankster lets you set the Trick Room off with priority. This is the break glass in case of emergency Trick Room and it works great in a pinch. For the rest, I added a bunch of moves I wanted to test. Interestingly, Stun Spore is really handy for hitting ground types at the expense of grass types. This works well if you already have something like Thunder Wave on your team. Just be wary of paralyses speed drops backfiring under Trick Room if you use it on the same set.

9. Magic Guard + Focus Sash

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Psych Up

The idea is pretty similar to Sturdy + Heavy-Duty Boots. The difference is Magic Guard takes care of hazards so the item is to ensure you don't get 1HKO'd. In the case of Alakazam, you can use this and Counter to beat nearly any physical Dynamax abuser. (Except ghost types.) Alternatively, you can also use Psych Up to steal stat boosts. Alakazam is a fast pokemon, so any speed buffs will ensure you outspeed almost everything else. This Psych Up tactic will be most effective against special attackers because Alakazam is one itself. When paired with Counter, this works out pretty well.

10. Prankster + Perish Song

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Substitute
- Detect
- Haze

A much sloppier version of what Cursola can do. The only pokemon that has both these traits is Murkrow. Murkrow is admittedly not really all that viable. So as a last choice, this really is kind of meh. Still, I think I more or less made my point by now. Yeah, I got lazy on the last one. Sue me.

-----------------------

Conclusion:


This entire post was purely about my point on counterplay. Does this mean that Dynamax is 100% not broken? Not necesarrily. I'm not going that far here. Does it mean all the counterplay I provided is airtight? No. I even stated some of it isn't. I also cut myself off at 10 and rushed at the end, so there might be more. I don't know. The point in all this is I wanted to have the discussion. I was told we as a community already had all the answers to the test, was given very few answers to the test (and most of them were to the wrong test), and now I did more in about two hours (and a couple more to write this bloody monster of a post) than just about any of you naysayers have provided throughout the entire duration of the entire Nat Dex Suspect thread so far.

What does this mean? A few possibilities...

1. I'm some sort of amazing theory crafting genius who is somehow better in roughly two hours than all those amazing players were (and most of the rest of you) in multiple weeks. (Seems unlikely.)

2. You all didn't actually fully explore your options here.

3. You did fully explore your options, but for some reason you just refused to tell me about most of them.


Honestly, and I mean no offense by this, I think most of you are full of it. You make all those surefire claims and this is the result? What else am I supposed to think right now besides most of you didn't really try to make it work? It's basically confirmation bias the suspect test.
Yeah this post confirms that you have no idea what's going on.

Bottom line: I think that there's a concept called agreeing to disagree. I dont think either party has considered it once in this thread, but is that not the point of suspect tests? To have a fair, civil democratic process of legislation? I really do not see why there is still an argument. Objectively, its clear that the anti-dynamax guys are unshakable averse to the pro dynamax guys and vice versa. So why waste time arguing in a self fulfiling prophecy for 2 pages?
Accept that you disagree and move on with your life, make your opinion count with a suspect vote.
 
It could just be me, but pretty much every single suspect thread (I get that there’s a grand total of two suspect threads total, but if those have taught me anything, then it’s fairly reasonable to say that most Dmax suspect threads will go down the same path) on Dynamax devolves into a total mess.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Yes I agree with the most recent posts. The discussion has devolved into tireless bickering back of forth between both sides and is not progressing the discussion of the suspect. I deleted some posts already but take this as a warning now, any more posts that do not meet the guidelines outlined in the OP will be deleted and infracted. We can go through this suspect without needing to resort to ad hominems.

Please and thanks.
 
So, in the spirit of it
Teleport buff actually helps handle dmax just a tiny bit. The ability to get a guaranteed slower pivot out of a bulky mon like slowbro or chansey (not that they arent slower anyway but fast mons like zam can use it too) can enable you to get your ditto in for free while they set up.
Granted, you still need to use ditto to maximize the effectiveness in beating dmax setup, but hey at least it's something, especially considering that the teleport buff is basically inconsequential in gen 8 OU.
 
Alright

Im gonna be the guy and say it

This thread and discussion has devolved into cancer and mods should intervene / break shit up.

Its not even about dynamax anymore (sorry for the huge amount of mod ass-kissing that is about to follow). This is not a discussion. This is several people screaming the same six phrases at like two people who have no idea what they're talking about. Frankly, both parties are at fault here.


What? Why would you expose someone like that?





I think you're getting quite worked up here. The vast logical majority will vote to ban dynamax so I fail to see the problem here.

Yeah this post confirms that you have no idea what's going on.

Bottom line: I think that there's a concept called agreeing to disagree. I dont think either party has considered it once in this thread, but is that not the point of suspect tests? To have a fair, civil democratic process of legislation? I really do not see why there is still an argument. Objectively, its clear that the anti-dynamax guys are unshakable averse to the pro dynamax guys and vice versa. So why waste time arguing in a self fulfiling prophecy for 2 pages?
Accept that you disagree and move on with your life, make your opinion count with a suspect vote.
>agree to disagree
I contest this notion. Reluctance to attack insidious misinformation is what allows toxic ideologies to spread. Inexperienced players lurking these threads need to know just how wrong these people are.
Granted we probably could have been more polite but I think we're all exhausted with people repeating the same crap over and over for the very obvious and selfish reason of just wanting to keep it around because they personally like the mechanic. As pointed out before, there has been literally one good pro-dmax argument. Literally only one and it wasn't even for this meta. My statement might technically be a strawman but this is pretty obvious, desu.
If we dont demonstrate how unwelcome the mentalities shown by people making these terrible arguments are, more will feel emboldened to do the same. Agreeing to disagree is how democracy fails. In that context if somebody is wrong, you are obligated to tell not just them but everyone who can hear it WHY they are wrong.
 
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