A guy I met on showdown gave me a standard screens somewhat bulky HO team to run (identical to the one on the first page just instead of Mew, there's Corviknight). I proceeded to win 15 in a row and get to 1400 in less than an hour. Dynamaxing is far far better in Natdex. It was bad in regular OU because the abusers could get out of Scarf/snowball without much counterplay. In this tier, that is cranked up to like 9000 with Pokemon like Kartana running around. 15 straight wins of setting a screen, poking a hole or forcing out Pokes with Zygarde/Magearna and then getting a free switch in for Kartana to snowball right away. If I have the time, I'll get the reqs (which are lower than standard OU) and definitely be voting in favour of a ban.
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Announcement NatDex OU Suspect Test 1: The Bigger the Better [DYNAMAX BANNED]
- Thread starter Funbot28
- Start date
- Status
I personally dislike the idea of dynamax becoming banned, yes the unpredictability is a problem and the top/1st thread I saw mentioned that one has to either 1. Dynamax urself or 2. Pack a ditto. When if u go for 1. That cancels out Dynamax as an issue in the 1st place, what’s even the discussion, what is predictable is that you do know that there is a potential nuke waiting to snowball in the back pocket.Format influenced by OU Suspect
Hello, the National Dex OU council has decided to suspect Dynamax (and Gigantamax by extension)!
It's no surprise that the Dyanamax has shaped up the tier quite considerably, arguably even more so then presence of Mega Evolutions and Z-stones did in their respective generations. Despite the access to previous generation mechanics, Dynamaxing has still caused quite a stuff in competitive play and teambuilding alike when abusers such as Kartana, Landorus-T, Volcorona, and Gyarados gain access to a doubling in their HP combined with the power and added benefits of max moves. The abundance of setup sweepers that benefit from Dynamaxing potential have become quite apparent and have heavily skewed the metagame towards offensive play. Despite the potential of defensive pokemon from benefiting from the doubling of their own HP, they are unable to gain access to vital status moves that can prevent an opposing Dynamax sweep and are unaffected by phazing as well, making setup especially difficult to halt.
However, the presence of both Mega evolutions and Z-moves does make Dyanamaxing a bit more bearable in this environment, as players have access to offensively / defensively powerful mega evolutions combined with z-moves to stabilize the opposing Dynamax threat. Although, it is still apparent that Dynamaxing shifts games numerous times and is potentially too much for this environment as well, leading to this suspect.
Suspect Information:
Remember to keep discussion civil and stay on topic! Posts will be moderated here so please try to follow the guidelines in order to avoid post deletion or possible infraction.
Tagging The Immortal in order to update suspect alert for ladder games.
I’m personally new to smogon, jumping back in late gen 7 and especially new to nat dex, if you see threats like Kartana, Gyarados, or Hawlucha, then you know that eventually they will potentially and definitely will use their nuke sooner or laterat this point the meta is still freshening while it’s getting broken (piece by piece with bans left and right, at least in gen 8 ou) and I know more threats that are going to Dynamax than threats that would have z moves, and z moves were never banned entirely which brings me to my next point
If Dynamax is banned, gigantamax should stay and z moves should be brought back. If the main problem of 2 is that Dynamax is unpredictable, then why would gigantamax be banned? Look at the list of gigantamax and tell me that those mons are broken by default, at best one can argue that for gmax Gengar, corvinknight, THE HAT, and Grimmsnarl. The rest of the mons are given life, and spotlight, such as pikachu and eevee. Now actually having another shot at competitive glory, and there are gmax forms that are frigging jokes or an F to pay respect, like how can u not look at gmax cake, snorlax, pikachu, butterfree, Zard meowth, and garbodor and end up chuckling over hilarity or the fact that you can use the Pokémon and not only have fun but win more often than not with those that you chose because you favor them. Ur not getting a gigantamax Hawlucha, vish, darm, no Greninja, Kartana or magerna. Just mons that were given life, what’s wrong with that?
you know what else gave certain mons life in past gens? Cough* kommo, and porygon*
Z moves, like what was the point of removing them? Oh it’s because it’s not gen 7? Tell that to me about megas in gen 7, or gen 3 remakes-oh waiiiiiit they were, seriously idk if I missed a z crystal ban or that they were gone in the 1st place but why ban z crystals? Gen 7s meta had access to all mons and not artificially given it to us through a what if format- bless the smogon gods for the nat dex format-
a Kartana that has access to z crystals sounds way more balanced than a Kartana that’s about to spam max knuckle and max flying, so why exclude z moves when I can friggen use a mega Metagross or dyna Kartana, what if I wanna use a kommo-o that’s about to set up using both it’s z move And Dynamax, that sounds friggin awesome, and sounds balanced since your setting up for two turns to either die by that time, end up getting hazed or roared, only to fight for the satisfaction of sweeping with what would basically the closest thing to a mega kommo. If only I could do more than imagine that
I’m curious, how many people make an effort to deal with dynamax by using red card, eject button, or roar, or even using haze for mons that set up mid dynamax like lucha and kart? It reminds me of evasion clause in the sense that there are actually methods of countering evasion than smogon claims, like the 25 methods listed by WeedleTwineedle, just makes sense to meFormat influenced by OU Suspect
Hello, the National Dex OU council has decided to suspect Dynamax (and Gigantamax by extension)!
It's no surprise that the Dyanamax has shaped up the tier quite considerably, arguably even more so then presence of Mega Evolutions and Z-stones did in their respective generations. Despite the access to previous generation mechanics, Dynamaxing has still caused quite a stuff in competitive play and teambuilding alike when abusers such as Kartana, Landorus-T, Volcorona, and Gyarados gain access to a doubling in their HP combined with the power and added benefits of max moves. The abundance of setup sweepers that benefit from Dynamaxing potential have become quite apparent and have heavily skewed the metagame towards offensive play. Despite the potential of defensive pokemon from benefiting from the doubling of their own HP, they are unable to gain access to vital status moves that can prevent an opposing Dynamax sweep and are unaffected by phazing as well, making setup especially difficult to halt.
However, the presence of both Mega evolutions and Z-moves does make Dyanamaxing a bit more bearable in this environment, as players have access to offensively / defensively powerful mega evolutions combined with z-moves to stabilize the opposing Dynamax threat. Although, it is still apparent that Dynamaxing shifts games numerous times and is potentially too much for this environment as well, leading to this suspect.
Suspect Information:
Remember to keep discussion civil and stay on topic! Posts will be moderated here so please try to follow the guidelines in order to avoid post deletion or possible infraction.
Tagging The Immortal in order to update suspect alert for ladder games.
Red card and phazing do not work on Dynamaxed Pokemon. Eject button needs a trick user with a priority move to even be somewhat of a deterrent, and is therefore extremely niche and an opportunity-cost for Pokemon which could have run far better moves in those two slots and a far better item. Stat boosts are only a small part of the problem, hence Haze is not a reliable Dynamax check at all. In the future, make sure to inform yourself fully before posting.
Also, the issue with evasion isn't that it's OP, it just makes the result of a match totally dependant on the RNG rather than any actual player skill, so it's uncompetitive, as opposed to broken. Yes you can run Aerial Ace etc to beat evasion users easily, but when otherwise useless moves have to be run to beat a strategy totally dependent on luck, the play environment is by far more competitive and skill-based by simply removing evasion moves.
I'm curious, how many people that complain about these bans actually understand the reasons behind them.
Also, ban Dmax on the double, so we can work on kicking it out of randbats too. I played some Gen 7 randbats a few days ago. It was nice to lose because my opponents were better than me, as opposed to who abused Dmax the harder.
Gigantamax mons still provide the absolutely busted secondary effects of dynamaxing, which can be used for unparalleled team support or to make things unreasonably bulky for three turns.
And...uh...z crystals are allowed in this format mate. Always have been, and I doubt they are going anywhere.
In his defense, there isn't exactly a ton of information on it in this particular thread. You know, the thread where we discuss actually banning it or not. You can put all the responsibility on everyone else to be informed, but that can easily just become a cop out when it comes time to actually explain anything. This was my biggest issue. Although, I came in more informed than him due to experiencing it in OU first. There still isn't exactly a comprehensive list of potential counterplay options and why they may or may not work to be found here. I can't really blame people for being confused.
I would also contend that stat boosts are arguably the biggest part of the problem and what makes Dynamax the most potent. People keep talking about all these new oppressive abusers in the Nat Dex metagame that mostly wouldn't be as oppressive if they didn't get buffer to take a hit while they get said stat boost to snowball. If they just got temporarily tankier for 3 turns, I don't think it would be as much of a problem, especially in a tier with Z moves. The stat boosts are real bad on top of everything else.
As far as I can tell, the problem with Haze as a counter specifically is a Dynamax pokemon can still get those stat boosts while killing you. The only way to ensure it can't is to do it after the Dynmax is over. But by then the snowball effect happened and much of the opposing team is likely devastated. You would have to use haze multiple times and live through like 4 turns, which is very hard under pressure from an offensive Dynamax pokemon.
However, this wasn't exactly the explanation you gave. You just wrote it off as only a small part of the problem, which is rather vague and dismissive. I don't understand why some people seem so adverse to thoroughly explaining and exploring these dynamics on here. Isn't that what this thread should be about?
I'm curious, how well are those reasons actually explained? Or where were those reasons explained? Does the person know where to go to find that explanation?
I don't even remotely disagree with you that Dmax is inherently dumb in Random Battles, where you cannot even control the team you get. However, isn't that a separate issue? What does banning it here have to do with banning it there? Shouldn't this discussion be about the Nat Dex metagame?
Funny you should ask, because a good number of us have stated before that red card and roar do not work against Dynamax mons; this issue was already addressed in the Gen 8 OU suspect test and the fact that you are unaware of this immunity is kind of concerning. And before you ask, Dynamax is immune to Destiny Bond and flinching as well, so even if red card/roar did work, there are still two other issues around it. Meaning that every team out there would need a red card/roar Pokemon; not exactly viable seeing as it's somewhat of a team-building restriction.
Eject button requires that you trick the button onto the Dynamax, but then you have to hit the Dynamax mon to actually screw it over. And given that a Dynamax mon has a very good chance of one-shotting the trick mon and getting the boost, you can be sure as hell that it isn't working. Also means Priority is essential in this case, which could work if the Dynamaxers weren't spamming Max Mindstorm as a precautionary measure. The only time this would work to great effect is in a VGC doubles match. Wolfey has demonstrated Prankster Eject Button Grimmsnarl and Pixilate Quick Attack Sylveon to great effect.
Maybe because people are tired of repeating the same points that have been raised over and over in monotype, OU, UU, and LC to an extent since their meta is very different. There was a full policy review thread full of 3 pages of highly detailed arguments from highly experienced people that all apply here. The main OU discussion page for the Dmax suspect was 10+ pages long, not to mention the discussion that spilled over into the megastar discussion thread. And in all that time, I've seen 1 person make a constructive argument for keeping dmax.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...d-1-boom-boom-pow.3657265/page-9#post-8312953
It boils down to "dmax isnt an instant win, it just emphasises planning in the teambuilder and adaptation during the battle more." That is the one constructive anti-ban argument in 18+ pages of discussion on this mechanic across various formats. I think at this point we've worn the ground very thin.
How should I know I'm new lol. I just found the reasoning after a few minutes of searching and/or a short while lurking. If I can do it, it can't be that hard.
Was making a joke about "who leads with a Max Air abuser" format. But if you want to discuss Nat Dex...
Imagine a hypothetical Pokemon with all the perfect traits to abuse Dmax. Let's base it of off Gyarados and give it Moxie as well as a typing with 2 weaknesses, but make 1 of them quad to balance it. Rather than Gyara's 125 atk/81 spe offenses, let's give this mon 181/109 offenses. Let's switch Dragon Dance for Swords Dance so it kills things faster, getting more boosts. This hypothetical mon would have a history in Gen 7 of abusing Z moves to break its checks and sweep, or breaking teams with/sometimes even outright sweeping with choice items on a correct prediction. Let's give it access to Max Airstream AND Max Knuckle. This hypothetical mon would be unstoppable with Dmax by any means short of using Ditto on every team or never giving it a single free switch-in. And even with Ditto, the whole battle might come down to a speed tie if it was scarfed.
Meet Kartana in Gen 8.
And it's not like Kartana is the only abuser of Dmax. Lando-T can take its old SSSS sets to a new level and sweep with them. Magerna can get KOs to snowball away for fun with any of its old sets. While having a free item slot for good measure. Not to mention mons like Torn-T deciding to sweep your team with Max Air on the spur of the moment. And all the Gen 8 abusers. And there isn't really any extra counterplay here. Z moves just break holes for a Dmax sweep. Megas are incapable of stopping a snowballing Dmaxer, and in a similar way to Z moves, can serve to overwhelm the checks of your Dmaxer(s), or even sweep themselves if the opponent is too focussed on stopping a Dmax sweep.
First of all, this isn't any of those other tiers. So the idea that this is a pure extension of every other discussion to ban Dynamax in other tiers is incredibly misguided. In National Dex, you have way more options available to you than every other game you mentioned. You have Z moves, Mega Evolutions, and a whole host of pokemon you can't play in any other Gen 8 metagame. If you dismiss it all without fully exploring all these other potential options for counterplay, you didn't put in the effort to make it work. If people did explore all these options and just didn't explain it properly, it's almost as bad. This is the thread where we should have these discussions instead of dismissing them and pretending like we already had them all. Nope!
With attitudes like this, you're just proving my fears correct that people aren't fully exploring these new options in this particular meta game and are just treating it like an extenuation of any other metagame. Nat Dex isn't any other metagame. I'm tired of people pretending like the OU suspect discussion is the only one we can ever have about it.
Feel free to tell them where that reasoning is instead of being a sarcastic jerk and maybe chasing them away from the community.
This is another thing that bothers me. Almost everyone on here says to look at the discussion. It's so obvious. We already had it. Great. You gonna say where? You gonna provide a link? Or is it just gonna be the OU suspect thread again? Oops! It's just the OU suspect... And to clarify, I'm not just talking about that OU suspect because that is incomplete in regards to how the Nat Dex unique metagame's dynamics aren't really a part of it. So while we are at it, where is that discussion? If you can't show it then that's a problem.
I'm sorry if you were making a joke and I didn't realize. It didn't seem like a joke to me. It seemed like a lobby to connect the two different metagames, which is something I really wish people would stop doing here.
I don't think anyone on here is disputing Dynamax has some horrible abusers. I've seen it by now. Greninja, Kartana, even Honchkrow, etc. Yep, some of them are really oppressive. This is the point I keep seeing hammered home. That the increased amount of pokemon available here create too many abusers to deal with.
The other side of that coin is counterplay. If you have more potential options for abusers, you also have more to look at with what could potentially counter them. What I want to see is the discussion about that.
I actually really appreciate your point about Z moves breaking holes for Dynamax. It's the best explanation relating to Z moves I have seen in this thread. Now Z moves do have a bunch of other potential effects besides damage burst that could and I think should be explored. I can understand how they could add to the problem.
I disagree a bit on megas following the same exact reasoning as Z moves. You know where the mega is likely coming from most games and it won't D-max itself. And when the opposing Dynamax pokemon doubles its health, many of these Megas often have enough power to revenge kill it before it snowballs. Not always. Often enough, depending on the speed, where they can be a factor. The main thing here is speed tiers and if they can attack first. That said, I don't think Megas are pure counters or checks or anything. I can also understand how offense + offense + moar offense could still snowball in of itself. I wonder if separating Dynamax from Z moves and Megas like I thought I heard was originally proposed would make sense.
It's still the same mechanic, regardless of the tier. The fundamental issues that underpin the pro ban side have at this point been dug up over and over and in spite of everything you've said, you've yet to suggest one way in which these extra options help the person on the receiving end of a sweep. In fact, there being more options favours the attacker due to unpredictability in the teambuilding making running checks for individual mons like Dracovish and Magearna harder, not to mention how hard certain mons like Kartana were to check before Dmax
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dynamax-discussion.3656506/ Policy review thread talking about the mechanic as a whole and concluding just in a vacumn, the mechanic as a whole is busted and there will always be abusers for it regardless of how many get banned. All the reasoning there applies here, and saying it doesn't apply requires evidence it doesn't. Evidence you have yet to provide.
Then discuss it. Tell me what counterplay you think there is.
Z moves can have 3 relevant effects.
1. Damage-self explanatory
2. Stat boosts-literally increasing the number of ways to set up and sweep, with or without Dmax.
3. Healing-Very rare, and usually reserved for Belly Drum, another setup move, and Parting Shot, a move that is mostly used to give wallbreakers an easy switch-in, and is Z-moved to get them back into the fight with a heal-up.
None of these help someone on the receiving end of Dmax, beyond KOing them with a Z move, something the many Max Air abusers render impossible.
When you choose a Mega, you have to commit to it in the teambuilder. Dmax has no such restriction. So even if you guess my planned Dmax abuser out of the 30 or so mons I could use for that and bring a Mega that checks it, I can just see you've bought said Mega and switch which mon I plan on Dmaxing. Or even Dmax a random mon at the correct time to break a hole in your team. Corviknight and Torn-T are both capable of performing a support role for an entire battle, but whenever they come in you have to account for the possibility I just Dmax them there and Max Air a hole in your team. That's a fundamental issue with Dmax regardless of what tier you're playing.
But since you want to generate discussion, I'll help you on that.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-ou-ultra-viability-ranking-thread.3621329/
Go on here, look at all the mons Dexited, and tell us which of them help give us extra options to stop Dmax. The onus is on you to produce evidence that there is more counterplay in Nat Dex. But maybe, there's no discussion on here, because there isn't more counterplay, and hence discussion is pointless. But if you don't believe that, then generate discussion. Don't wait around for others to generate the arguments for you, because atm, all you are saying is that there should be discussion, without actually adding anything to discuss.
That would result in Megas having little to no viability, and very few Z moves being used, and we would end up banning multiple Dmax abusers anyway. Yes, Dmax is that OP. Yes, I am sure. Because top players are abusing the hell out of it right now, and if there was some miracle counter besides Ditto, they would have found it by now. Feel free to prove them wrong though.
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Ok. It's about that time. I've given people enough chances to deliver and I'm getting pretty tired of the general avoidance and excuses that exist in this thread. So I'll do it myself. But first, I want to say some things both to you and the thread as a whole:
1. Thank you theotherguytm for trying to engage in the discussion and putting the effort in your last response. I don't agree with everything you said. But I really appreciated the sincerity of that last comment.
2. In the end, a lot of the arguments to keep Dynamax around or not revolve around counterplay and the like. IThere are still a few discussion points I fundamentally disagree with in the last response. However, I don't want to dwell on them right now because I feel like the discussion won't go anywhere until we dress the bottom line, which is counterplay. Apparently, that's all on me now. My next two points will explain why I find this to be discouraging.
3. Since I first came on here with what were originally only minor (they have since grown) concerns at the time, I was repeatedly told there was basically no counterplay. I was also told that all these amazingly skilled, high ranked players had already done everything we could do and they all think Dynamax is broken. Getting information on the specifics here was much harder than I thought, even to the point where I started questioning if people really had anything...
4. I'm still confused why people keep putting it on me to discuss counterplay when all the claims were that people had already explored everything. The claims were even that all these great and skilled high ranking players had tried everything. What, you can't prove this? You all can't show me evidence of this? I have to do it myself? To be blunt, I didn't wait this long because I can't. I waited this long because I was hoping it was true that at least some of you really explored all the counter play options in the National Dex metagame like was claimed. If I have to do it myself, it more or less proves all that was basically a lie.
5. Finding counterplay shouldn't be rocket science. I'm not sure how many people on here know this or not, but Pokemon Showdown has this really handy sorting thing that allows you to search pokemon by types, abilities, and moves. You can even do multiple searches at once! Anyone with a basic understanding of pokemon mechanics can search to narrow down potential options quickly. I thought most people on here already knew this but I guess I shouldn't assume. If you didn't know, now you do.
6. Imagine a world where people complain for weeks about how Dynamax is OP and many people insist there is virtually no counterplay. Imagine a scenario where this was the case, but also many of the best, most skilled, and highest rated players had totally explored this fully. Allegedly. And people claimed this for days on end and with pages of text. Wouldn't it be embarrassing if some random guy came on here and did better than all those people in like 2 hours using Pokemon Showdown Teambuilder?
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Examples of Counterplay Options:
1. Metal Burst
Aggron @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Endeavor
- Head Smash
- Reversal
This is a prime example of something you can only find in the Nat Dex metagame within gen 8. The idea is you come in and Metal Burst a Dynamax pokemon that is snowballing. Metal Burst is superior to Counter or Mirror Coat because it doesn't require specific damage types and doesn't fall victim to any type immunity. Heavy-Duty Boots ensures that Sturdy cannot be broken by hazards. For the record, there are other pokemon with both Sturdy and Metal Burst.
2. Yawn
Audino @ Leftovers / Normalium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Yawn
- Knock Off
- Last Resort
- Psych Up
Yawn is actually pretty good. Against Dynamax, you force the opponent to make a bad choice between switching or falling asleep. Since it forces a lot of swaps, it also often allows you to set up as well. It's not a hard counter but it stops a lot of snowball Dynamax situations. While I could have used nearly any set with Yawn to make this point, especially bulky ones, I thought Yawn + Psych Up would be really good at stealing the stats from opposing abusers. One thing to mention is that Normalium Z is a pretty good potential option here since Z-Psych Up is a full heal and Last Resort has amazing power for a Z move. This gives the build some flexibility.
3. Z-Hypnosis
Xurkitree @ Psychium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
An example of a Z-move effect no one on here talked about. Since Z-moves never miss, you get a guaranteed sleep on anything that isn't immune to it. You also get a speed boost. This move could be used on either a bulky build or a sweeping set. I chose a sweeping set because I felt like it. In cases where a set like this is too slow, you could either try it on Infiltrator Crobat or more realistically a bulky build that could live a hit to get it off. A bulky build is likely better as a Dynamax check.
4. Perish Body
Cursola @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Hex
- Stealth Rock
This is something that is ironically also available in regular gen 8 OU. Perish Body is a pretty good anti-snowball ability in general. You limit the sweep. They either switch out in a couple turns or die. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of data I could find on Cursola in Nat Dex. So I just made this special defensive to counter those kinds of builds better. It might be possible to make a more generalist build that has some moves to help it stall out those 3 turns a little better. I haven't really bothered to explore it yet.
5. Unaware
Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Purify
- Curse
Unaware is a no brainer to check out if you want to counter stat opposing buffs. Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of Unaware pokemon and most of them aren't that good. Pyukamuku is the best I could find. This set can be like a poor man's version of what Aggron does. You can make it bulky enough to live most attacks and fire back a Counter or Mirror Coat. The advantage in using it is potential longevity from recovery.
6. Bulky Paralyses
Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
- Punishment
- Tri Attack
Paralyses is underrated. First of all, you cut the speed down to counter fast sweepers and some Max Airstream abuse. Second, there is a decent chance that the Dynmax pokemon can't move and they waste one or more of their precious 3 turns. Stalling out Dynamax is generally very difficult. With paralyses, it is a lot easier. Either way, this allows you to find some sort of check more easily.
When I initially made a build similar to this to be a slow pivot for a gen 8 OU team, I discovered that the incredible bulk of Type: Null lets it live most attacks even from Dynamax pokemon. You can switch into one, get off a paralyses and cripple most of them, then U-turn out to reset.
7. Prankster + Eject Button
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Eject Button
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Trick
- Spirit Break
- Bulk Up
I added this because it was already mentioned in this thread by someone else. This is one I did not have an opportunity to test yet. I know most phasing does not work. I have heard Eject Button does, and I believe it is confirmed in the first Dynamax mechanics thread, so I'm going to run with it until and unless I hear otherwise. I added Sucker Punch for Priority damage in case Grimmsnarl lives so it can directly abuse Eject Button. If not, it will need a teammate to do it. The set might be more effective with Thunder Wave instead of something like Spirit Break. Though going for paralyses first could be somewhat risky against a Dynamax pokemon, paralyses is still decent at crippling them to make it more manageable. It might be worth exploring.
8. Prankster + Trick Room
Whimsicott @ Figy Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Defog
- Stun Spore
- Memento
I have spent a lot of time on semi-Trick Room concepts this gen. Trick Room makes faster sweepers vulnerable and totally counters Max Airstream Abuse. The problem is getting it off. Gen 8 OU in particular had the problem of Trick Room setters often dying with all the offensive threats running around. In Nat Dex, you do have a lot of really good options for Trick Room compared to other metagames. However, it is still possible for some snowballing offensive threats to tear through any setter. So I came up with a little solution for that...
Prankster. Prankster lets you set the Trick Room off with priority. This is the break glass in case of emergency Trick Room and it works great in a pinch. For the rest, I added a bunch of moves I wanted to test. Interestingly, Stun Spore is really handy for hitting ground types at the expense of grass types. This works well if you already have something like Thunder Wave on your team. Just be wary of paralyses speed drops backfiring under Trick Room if you use it on the same set.
9. Magic Guard + Focus Sash
Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Psych Up
The idea is pretty similar to Sturdy + Heavy-Duty Boots. The difference is Magic Guard takes care of hazards so the item is to ensure you don't get 1HKO'd. In the case of Alakazam, you can use this and Counter to beat nearly any physical Dynamax abuser. (Except ghost types.) Alternatively, you can also use Psych Up to steal stat boosts. Alakazam is a fast pokemon, so any speed buffs will ensure you outspeed almost everything else. This Psych Up tactic will be most effective against special attackers because Alakazam is one itself. When paired with Counter, this works out pretty well.
10. Prankster + Perish Song
Murkrow @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Substitute
- Detect
- Haze
A much sloppier version of what Cursola can do. The only pokemon that has both these traits is Murkrow. Murkrow is admittedly not really all that viable. So as a last choice, this really is kind of meh. Still, I think I more or less made my point by now. Yeah, I got lazy on the last one. Sue me.
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Conclusion:
This entire post was purely about my point on counterplay. Does this mean that Dynamax is 100% not broken? Not necesarrily. I'm not going that far here. Does it mean all the counterplay I provided is airtight? No. I even stated some of it isn't. I also cut myself off at 10 and rushed at the end, so there might be more. I don't know. The point in all this is I wanted to have the discussion. I was told we as a community already had all the answers to the test, was given very few answers to the test (and most of them were to the wrong test), and now I did more in about two hours (and a couple more to write this bloody monster of a post) than just about any of you naysayers have provided throughout the entire duration of the entire Nat Dex Suspect thread so far.
What does this mean? A few possibilities...
1. I'm some sort of amazing theory crafting genius who is somehow better in roughly two hours than all those amazing players were (and most of the rest of you) in multiple weeks. (Seems unlikely.)
2. You all didn't actually fully explore your options here.
3. You did fully explore your options, but for some reason you just refused to tell me about most of them.
Honestly, and I mean no offense by this, I think most of you are full of it. You make all those surefire claims and this is the result? What else am I supposed to think right now besides most of you didn't really try to make it work? It's basically confirmation bias the suspect test.
Hoo boy, there's a lot to unpack here.
I don't really know how to put this in a way that isn't going to make me sound like a jerk, but most of these sets are downright awful and serve no purpose outside of beating dynamaxing, and most of them don't even do that. Some of them don't even work; Audino is a terrible choice in a metagame where fast fighting type moves are absolutely everywhere, and Z-Moves that are status moves like Hypnosis can miss; it's why the above Xurkitree set was not even considered its best choice in gen 7. Prankster Trick Room still goes last, and that Pyukumuku set is Kartana food and is a free opportunity for Substitute and Taunt users. Type: Null is easily chipped, vulnerable to Knock Off, and is Fighting weak. The Sash/Counter sets work, sure, but you are left with a largely useless Pokemon afterwards and Eject Button BS is a gimmick and prevents you from running a more overall useful item on your Grimmsnarl. The Perish sets are great and all but three turns is often enough for something to blow a gaping hole in your teams defensive integrity.
None of these sets (except for Sash Zam and thats fringe at best) are viable at all. A lot of the sets just straight up don't work. I really don't want to sound like a dick here, but I've got to say it straight up; the fact that you are suggesting these sets suggests that you have insufficient metagame and mechanic knowledge to be telling us that we haven't explored all of our options.
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Confirming as NXDYN calaverite
EDIT:
My experience in this tier with dynamax is well described in one of SputnikGT 's posts: "The main issue lies in the fact that the only true counterplay to every dynamax situation is 'Run Ditto'." While there has been discussion about other options, few to none of these will likely come close to being as an effective or immediate threat to most dynamax mons (particularly to sweepers-the mons that cause much of the issues behind dynamax) as Ditto in most situations. The prevalence of Ditto is a result of extremely powerful setup sweepers such as Kartana being able to KO mons while getting speed boosts, resulting in such sweepers easily being able to run through teams without a Ditto. This tends to leave games in states where they are decided either by a dynamax sweeper or a Ditto, leaving little room for other pokemon to shine and restraining teambuilding and strategy. For these reasons I believe dynamax should be banned.
My experience in this tier with dynamax is well described in one of SputnikGT 's posts: "The main issue lies in the fact that the only true counterplay to every dynamax situation is 'Run Ditto'." While there has been discussion about other options, few to none of these will likely come close to being as an effective or immediate threat to most dynamax mons (particularly to sweepers-the mons that cause much of the issues behind dynamax) as Ditto in most situations. The prevalence of Ditto is a result of extremely powerful setup sweepers such as Kartana being able to KO mons while getting speed boosts, resulting in such sweepers easily being able to run through teams without a Ditto. This tends to leave games in states where they are decided either by a dynamax sweeper or a Ditto, leaving little room for other pokemon to shine and restraining teambuilding and strategy. For these reasons I believe dynamax should be banned.
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I wanted to have the discussion about counterplay. I asked about what could potentially work and why or even why not, and I was told repeatedly to do it myself. I heard claims about how everything was already explored and yet it apparently wasn't. So here we are. Now after pages of people like you mostly avoiding the issue and not getting into in depth discussions about counterplay, I do it here to force the issue, and the first response says that I don't know enough and I should basically just stop. Did you even try, though? This is the sort of mental gymnastics I have engaged with on this thread.
If you can do it better, by all means go ahead. Please, please do. Back up all the claims that there is no counterplay and that you truly explored it all. I've only been asking for most of this thread. If you just prefer to default state dismiss everything all the time, I honestly have no interest. The bottom line is I already provided more than what has been given in this entire thread. So I made my point.
Something that should be noted is that these sets I provided were just examples of the general strategy I was proposing. It seemed like you took the sets a bit too literally. Many of the general strategies have other choices. I didn't do my best to optimize every set or even make the best choice for every pokemon. I just did a search through team builder. I was rushing to get this out and I probably made a few mistakes further as a result. That doesn't mean everything I said was automatically wrong. And not everything has no merit just because there is no usage. The Aggron set, for instance, would 100% work as a counter. On the other hand, the Murkrow set is 110% stupid.
The last thing I will say is that not every build is going to be a perfect counter to every Dynamax set. That's probably an unreasonable standard. Most of what I was suggesting would either target a good deal (but obviously not all) of builds or at least hinder them so you could reverse the momentum and cover for the rest with team building. For instance, adding Pyukamuku to a team that can deal with Kart might work better than not doing that. All of these things should be taken as a whole part of the bigger picture. What can you really do against Dynamax? What are really the options? I'm not even saying it's going to be enough in the end. I don't know. I just want to actually discuss it in good faith. This whole thing has been a lot harder than it should be.
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I don't really know what else to say here, because what you have been responding to people basically consists of "Yes, but HAVE you actually explored every option?" despite people assuring you multiple times that we have. None of these sets or strategies work by definition of a counter; counters have to be able to reliably switch into something. They are all checks at best. Being by definition uncounterable is grounds to be banned.
The main issue lies in the fact that the only true counterplay to every dynamax situation is "Run Ditto". Sure, you can prepare for specific Pokemon, but, as you said yourself, you cannot feasibly prepare yourself for every single viable dynamaxer in every team outside of running Ditto. And, again, Ditto checks Dmax mons. It can't dream of switching into most of them. If you are running sets similar to what you have described you are handicapping yourself severely. Constricting teambuilding like that is also, as precedent, grounds to be banned.
The thing is that at this point we can confidently say that every viable option has been explored. Good players have scoured the metagame looking for good checks. Trust me, I've tried. I've run stuff like Torkoal to beat Kartana. Again, nothing truly counters every Dynamax mon. Its just not possible due to the nature of the mechanic. Being uncounterable has been grounds to be banned from a Smogon metagame ever since Wobbuffet was banished to Ubers back in Gen 3. We are at that sort of situation again. The reason we haven't gone into in-depth discussion about counterplay is because it doesn't really exist dude.
I've tried to lay this out in a way that sounds understanding so that you can understand that the best players in the format have genuinely tried everything. If we haven't found a consistent solution yet than it doesn't exist.
https://gyazo.com/68b79f80c78ccbaac83c75d1f53337c7 Confirming as NXDYN egalvanc!
edit: Happy New Year!
edit: Happy New Year!
Then tell me about them. Do you understand what I'm really asking? For example, take something like Prankster. What can that be combined with? Can it be run on any pokemon that could work? I'm just giving an example. I don't care if it ends in a dead end. I just want to know that these sorts of things were explored and why they did or didn't work.
As checkplay isn't a term, I used the term counterplay. Sorry if that caused confusion. I understand the difference between a check and a counter, at least as Smogon defines them. Counters have to be switched into the pokemon to count whereas a revenge killer would be more of a check. I was more talking about the general ability to do anything about the mechanic. According to my discussion in this thread, it seemed the consensus was that the inherent problem was how oppressive the offensive builds were and how many abusers there were. So if there is more you can do about it, maybe it isn't so unmanageable in this tier.
The argument that there are no counters specifically and therefore it should be banned is a somewhat different one. There are times when even things that are manageable get banned for other reasons. I'm not entirely sure how fair it is to say you have to be able to counter every single Dynamax build. It's like asking a single pokemon to counter every Mega. There are just so many options available. Megas weren't banned for that, right? Certain ones were OP and banned. But Megas as a whole were not. Now I'm not saying Dynamax isn't worse or harder to cover for than Megas overall. But maybe we need to have more realistic expectation about how you can potentially deal with it?
That's more information then I feel I've gotten from most posts on here.
This is basically just circular, conclusion based reasoning. I was already told the best players tried anything and everything. I want to hear about what they looked for and why it apparently all didn't work. The idea that a consistent solution doesn't exist just because you haven't found it yet is basically confirmation bias. Not saying you 100% can't have explored everything but I'm certainly not hearing about much of the details. So what am I supposed to think?
I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread (and in the natdex showdown chat as well. What's up, metool b?) has told you about a dozen times that we have. Your idea of exploring every option is kind of ridiculous, if I'm being honest. You dont just want every viable option to be explored, you want us to grind out every single possible combination of tactics right down to unironically using trash like metal burst sturdy aggron and psych up audino. We already know those won't work. It is very insulting to insinuate we are somehow missing something and then when we ask what it could be you put that doodoo in our face. No, we have already covered every base worth covering, nobody needs to playtest for a week to be able to tell you that eviolite graveler isnt gonna help.
The suspect has already started. You either present your reasoning for why something is unhealthy, or you present reasoning for why it should stay. Your demands for other people to do this for you have no place here. I hate to minimod but to be frank they should have been deleted from the start. Meta discussion about the suspect itself has no place here. Stop it.
You know how people have been telling you for the last week how we have already discussed this shit and you keep ignoring them?
Yeah, well people have tried comparing megas to dmax before. It doesnt work. They are not comparable. I am not going to repeat for you the reasons why, as this resource is readily available to you, and judging by the thread so far, your main tactic seems to be to get people to do just that until they are exhausted with trying to reason with you.
This is just you blatantly insulting everyone who has told you that you are wrong and why.
This has been discussed already.
That is the end of this branch of the argument. What you want has already been discussed. I'm sorry(?) that you want more of it, but this is a pretty cut and dry case.
Once again, your idea of "exploring everything" is extremely unreasonable. Based on your previous posts you seem to want this in the most literal sense of the term; for us to explore literally everything even though we don't need to "explore" it to apply common sense and just know it won't work.
So, yeah, no, we arent doing this, and your entire argument has no place in the suspect thread whatsoever.
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Judging from this post, I realize I was rather under a delusion to expect you to know basic pokemon knowledge, let alone competitive skills. You seem to be under the impression that Z-status moves never miss, Trick Room turns into a priority move in conjunction with Prankster, and you clearly do not understand how Purify works, which doesn't cure and heal yourself, but the opposition.
I have to admit, I was genuinely curious to see what methods of counterplay you would come up with, but quite frankly was horribly disappointed after seeing this post, in which you even have the audacity to insult the playerbase with concluding that either you are a genius for coming up with these sets or we are just competitively lacking because we did not discuss these forms of 'counterplay'. I hate to burst your bubble, but you are seriously lacking in competitive skills yourself if you believe any such form of counterplay even merits a discussion in a competitive environment.
Don't bother wasting your time responding. I can't take you seriously after this.
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On boy, where to begin...
Togedemaru @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 2
Happiness: 160
EVs: 108 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Endeavor
- Swagger
- Spiky Shield
This counters Dmax! Level 2 Togedemaru Sturdy Juice with Endeavor and Toxic! It can stall 2 turns for free while killing the opponent. Fun fact: this is also legal in standard Gen 8 OU as well. Wonder why no-one has tried this? Because it's a gimmick. You can argue this set 'counters' basically anything. Most of the sets you suggested are along the same lines, basically requiring you to play 5v6 until your opponent Dmaxes. Which btw, is much harder in Nat Dex because Megas like Metagross, Mawile and Lopunny are more than capable of ripping your team apart when a mon up. Most of these gimmicks are just basically running Ditto without getting the reverse sweep or anything else Ditto brings to your team.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 387-458 (94.3 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Oh. And that's without coverage, without Dmaxing, without chip and without hazards. And you will have to sac a mon to get it in again. Which puts Kartana at +3.
The fact most of your answers are equally applicable to unbanning Deoxys-A and Naga should say everything really. You're trying to generate discussion where none is to be had, and just theorymonning garbage that is strictly worse than running Ditto. Even if these genuinely worked, is a meta where we HAVE to run garbage like this really what we want to play? Also, still waiting on reasoning why the conclusions reached in that policy review thread don't apply here. As an example of what I was hoping for, in NFE they used the reasoning that all their defensive Pokemon have access to Eviolite. It also means all their sweepers are hard to revenge kill though, so it goes both ways. Edit: They banned it 14-1 anyway.
Togedemaru @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 2
Happiness: 160
EVs: 108 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Endeavor
- Swagger
- Spiky Shield
This counters Dmax! Level 2 Togedemaru Sturdy Juice with Endeavor and Toxic! It can stall 2 turns for free while killing the opponent. Fun fact: this is also legal in standard Gen 8 OU as well. Wonder why no-one has tried this? Because it's a gimmick. You can argue this set 'counters' basically anything. Most of the sets you suggested are along the same lines, basically requiring you to play 5v6 until your opponent Dmaxes. Which btw, is much harder in Nat Dex because Megas like Metagross, Mawile and Lopunny are more than capable of ripping your team apart when a mon up. Most of these gimmicks are just basically running Ditto without getting the reverse sweep or anything else Ditto brings to your team.
So you have to sac a mon to get the Metal Burst mon in, and then you basically get left with a 1HP mon for a free revenge kill. So you trade 2 for 1. This assumes of course the Metal Burst mon has taken no part in the battle, as the slightest chip invalidates it. Again, 5v6. Just run Ditto.
Ok, this assumes Audino can take a hit, use Yawn and not die.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 387-458 (94.3 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Oh. And that's without coverage, without Dmaxing, without chip and without hazards. And you will have to sac a mon to get it in again. Which puts Kartana at +3.
If this auto-hit, Xurk would not be UUBL last gen. And again, it relies on sacing a mon and tanking a hit.
Nothing to add here. Except Cursola has tragic physical bulk, so it has 0 chance of stalling a physical attacker.
Can Puke really tank 3 turns of Z-moves? Fun fact: Puke is also legal in standard OU. And here's what it actually does: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/pyukumuku/ And I quote: "Wallbreakers such as Tapu Lele, Kyurem-B, Hoopa-U, and Mega Heracross are able to overpower Pyukumuku and easily 2HKO it."
So once again on the sac a mon and pray you tank a hit line, only this time you aren't even killing it or putting it to sleep. Note that a mon is still faster than normal after 3 Max Airs and paralysis.
This was something done in VGC, a doubles format. With Quick Attack Sylveon to back it up. Do you see the issue with attempting this in singles? You still give them until you hit them to snowball, and even then it's not guaranteed, since they can easily break holes in your team for other sweepers to exploit.
See above. And no, Zam is not at an untouchable speed tier: Torn-T, Weavile and Tapu Koko can blow it away very nicely, the former of which in particular makes a great Dmax abuser.
The fact most of your answers are equally applicable to unbanning Deoxys-A and Naga should say everything really. You're trying to generate discussion where none is to be had, and just theorymonning garbage that is strictly worse than running Ditto. Even if these genuinely worked, is a meta where we HAVE to run garbage like this really what we want to play? Also, still waiting on reasoning why the conclusions reached in that policy review thread don't apply here. As an example of what I was hoping for, in NFE they used the reasoning that all their defensive Pokemon have access to Eviolite. It also means all their sweepers are hard to revenge kill though, so it goes both ways. Edit: They banned it 14-1 anyway.
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If you have any competitive experience or knowledge, let alone basic things, I think it's pretty much common sense why none of these sets, I hate the fact that you assume that we don't try to find ways to deal with counterplay, we do, actual viable ones and not completely gimmicky ones. Also, so many people in the thread were telling you, in an reasonable and constructive manner that finding viable forms of counterplay is incredibly difficult because Dynamax negates most viable forms of counterplay. We aren't going to explore if your sash Alakazam or your Audino is going to work because anyone who has played the tier or has experience with Dynamax in general will know that it simply doesn't work.
We have already told you why these forms of counterplay don't work, hell for anyone with competitive knowledge, like I said, it's common sense. Honestly, the fact that someone is telling you in an respectful yet coherent way that these sets unfortunately do not work and the first thing you do is be incredibly defensive and just dismiss everything they have to say is just completely disrespectful on not only him but the the entire player base who disagreed with you and explained why they do.
This is the only time I'm making this post. This thread is becoming circular so I think it's best not to make continue the discussion about this, considering that it is going nowhere at this point and should have reached its conclusion a long time ago.
Like, how do people argue that Dynamax is balanced in this tier anyways? All Nat Dex does is add at least 12 more viable unique Dynamax abusers which makes it harder for teams to prep for. Every single argument for banning Dynamax in Gen 8 OU is strengthened here and every pro Dynamax argument is much weaker. Seriously, there are people who are suggesting Trick Eject button as healthy and viable means to beat Dynamax. (A method that is VERY hard to work in singles btw). Just stop lol
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