Then discuss it. Tell me what counterplay you think there is.
Ok. It's about that time. I've given people enough chances to deliver and I'm getting pretty tired of the general avoidance and excuses that exist in this thread. So I'll do it myself. But first, I want to say some things both to you and the thread as a whole:
1. Thank you theotherguytm for trying to engage in the discussion and putting the effort in your last response. I don't agree with everything you said. But I really appreciated the sincerity of that last comment.
2. In the end, a lot of the arguments to keep Dynamax around or not revolve around counterplay and the like. IThere are still a few discussion points I fundamentally disagree with in the last response. However, I don't want to dwell on them right now because I feel like the discussion won't go anywhere until we dress the bottom line, which is counterplay. Apparently, that's all on me now. My next two points will explain why I find this to be discouraging.
3. Since I first came on here with what were originally only minor (they have since grown) concerns at the time, I was repeatedly told there was basically no counterplay. I was also told that all these amazingly skilled, high ranked players had already done everything we could do and they all think Dynamax is broken. Getting information on the specifics here was much harder than I thought, even to the point where I started questioning if people really had anything...
4. I'm still confused why people keep putting it on me to discuss counterplay when all the claims were that people had already explored everything. The claims were even that all these great and skilled high ranking players had tried everything. What, you can't prove this? You all can't show me evidence of this? I have to do it myself? To be blunt, I didn't wait this long because I can't. I waited this long because I was hoping it was true that at least some of you really explored all the counter play options in the National Dex metagame like was claimed.
If I have to do it myself, it more or less proves all that was basically a lie.
5. Finding counterplay shouldn't be rocket science. I'm not sure how many people on here know this or not, but Pokemon Showdown has this really handy sorting thing that allows you to search pokemon by types, abilities, and moves. You can even do multiple searches at once! Anyone with a basic understanding of pokemon mechanics can search to narrow down potential options quickly. I thought most people on here already knew this but I guess I shouldn't assume. If you didn't know, now you do.
6. Imagine a world where people complain for weeks about how Dynamax is OP and many people insist there is virtually no counterplay. Imagine a scenario where this was the case, but also many of the best, most skilled, and highest rated players had totally explored this fully. Allegedly. And people claimed this for days on end and with pages of text.
Wouldn't it be embarrassing if some random guy came on here and did better than all those people in like 2 hours using Pokemon Showdown Teambuilder?
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Examples of Counterplay Options:
1. Metal Burst
Aggron @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Endeavor
- Head Smash
- Reversal
This is a prime example of something you can only find in the Nat Dex metagame within gen 8. The idea is you come in and Metal Burst a Dynamax pokemon that is snowballing. Metal Burst is superior to Counter or Mirror Coat because it doesn't require specific damage types and doesn't fall victim to any type immunity. Heavy-Duty Boots ensures that Sturdy cannot be broken by hazards. For the record, there are other pokemon with both Sturdy and Metal Burst.
2. Yawn
Audino @ Leftovers / Normalium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Yawn
- Knock Off
- Last Resort
- Psych Up
Yawn is actually pretty good. Against Dynamax, you force the opponent to make a bad choice between switching or falling asleep. Since it forces a lot of swaps, it also often allows you to set up as well. It's not a hard counter but it stops a lot of snowball Dynamax situations. While I could have used nearly any set with Yawn to make this point, especially bulky ones, I thought Yawn + Psych Up would be really good at stealing the stats from opposing abusers. One thing to mention is that Normalium Z is a pretty good potential option here since Z-Psych Up is a full heal and Last Resort has amazing power for a Z move. This gives the build some flexibility.
3. Z-Hypnosis
Xurkitree @ Psychium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
An example of a Z-move effect no one on here talked about. Since Z-moves never miss, you get a guaranteed sleep on anything that isn't immune to it. You also get a speed boost. This move could be used on either a bulky build or a sweeping set. I chose a sweeping set because I felt like it. In cases where a set like this is too slow, you could either try it on Infiltrator Crobat or more realistically a bulky build that could live a hit to get it off. A bulky build is likely better as a Dynamax check.
4. Perish Body
Cursola @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Hex
- Stealth Rock
This is something that is ironically also available in regular gen 8 OU. Perish Body is a pretty good anti-snowball ability in general. You limit the sweep. They either switch out in a couple turns or die. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of data I could find on Cursola in Nat Dex. So I just made this special defensive to counter those kinds of builds better. It might be possible to make a more generalist build that has some moves to help it stall out those 3 turns a little better. I haven't really bothered to explore it yet.
5. Unaware
Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Purify
- Curse
Unaware is a no brainer to check out if you want to counter stat opposing buffs. Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of Unaware pokemon and most of them aren't that good. Pyukamuku is the best I could find. This set can be like a poor man's version of what Aggron does. You can make it bulky enough to live most attacks and fire back a Counter or Mirror Coat. The advantage in using it is potential longevity from recovery.
6. Bulky Paralyses
Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
- Punishment
- Tri Attack
Paralyses is underrated. First of all, you cut the speed down to counter fast sweepers and some Max Airstream abuse. Second, there is a decent chance that the Dynmax pokemon can't move and they waste one or more of their precious 3 turns. Stalling out Dynamax is generally very difficult. With paralyses, it is a lot easier. Either way, this allows you to find some sort of check more easily.
When I initially made a build similar to this to be a slow pivot for a gen 8 OU team, I discovered that the incredible bulk of Type: Null lets it live most attacks even from Dynamax pokemon. You can switch into one, get off a paralyses and cripple most of them, then U-turn out to reset.
7. Prankster + Eject Button
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Eject Button
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Trick
- Spirit Break
- Bulk Up
I added this because it was already mentioned in this thread by someone else. This is one I did not have an opportunity to test yet. I know most phasing does not work. I have heard Eject Button does, and I believe it is confirmed in the first Dynamax mechanics thread, so I'm going to run with it until and unless I hear otherwise. I added Sucker Punch for Priority damage in case Grimmsnarl lives so it can directly abuse Eject Button. If not, it will need a teammate to do it. The set might be more effective with Thunder Wave instead of something like Spirit Break. Though going for paralyses first could be somewhat risky against a Dynamax pokemon, paralyses is still decent at crippling them to make it more manageable. It might be worth exploring.
8. Prankster + Trick Room
Whimsicott @ Figy Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Defog
- Stun Spore
- Memento
I have spent a lot of time on semi-Trick Room concepts this gen. Trick Room makes faster sweepers vulnerable and totally counters Max Airstream Abuse. The problem is getting it off. Gen 8 OU in particular had the problem of Trick Room setters often dying with all the offensive threats running around. In Nat Dex, you do have a lot of really good options for Trick Room compared to other metagames. However, it is still possible for some snowballing offensive threats to tear through any setter. So I came up with a little solution for that...
Prankster. Prankster lets you set the Trick Room off with priority. This is the break glass in case of emergency Trick Room and it works great in a pinch. For the rest, I added a bunch of moves I wanted to test. Interestingly, Stun Spore is really handy for hitting ground types at the expense of grass types. This works well if you already have something like Thunder Wave on your team. Just be wary of paralyses speed drops backfiring under Trick Room if you use it on the same set.
9. Magic Guard + Focus Sash
Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Psych Up
The idea is pretty similar to Sturdy + Heavy-Duty Boots. The difference is Magic Guard takes care of hazards so the item is to ensure you don't get 1HKO'd. In the case of Alakazam, you can use this and Counter to beat nearly any physical Dynamax abuser. (Except ghost types.) Alternatively, you can also use Psych Up to steal stat boosts. Alakazam is a fast pokemon, so any speed buffs will ensure you outspeed almost everything else. This Psych Up tactic will be most effective against special attackers because Alakazam is one itself. When paired with Counter, this works out pretty well.
10. Prankster + Perish Song
Murkrow @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Substitute
- Detect
- Haze
A much sloppier version of what Cursola can do. The only pokemon that has both these traits is Murkrow. Murkrow is admittedly not really all that viable. So as a last choice, this really is kind of meh. Still, I think I more or less made my point by now. Yeah, I got lazy on the last one. Sue me.
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Conclusion:
This entire post was purely about my point on counterplay. Does this mean that Dynamax is 100% not broken? Not necesarrily. I'm not going that far here. Does it mean all the counterplay I provided is airtight? No. I even stated some of it isn't. I also cut myself off at 10 and rushed at the end, so there might be more. I don't know. The point in all this is I wanted to have the discussion. I was told we as a community already had all the answers to the test, was given very few answers to the test (and most of them were to the wrong test), and now I did more in about two hours (and a couple more to write this bloody monster of a post) than just about any of you naysayers have provided throughout the entire duration of the entire Nat Dex Suspect thread so far.
What does this mean? A few possibilities...
1. I'm some sort of amazing theory crafting genius who is somehow better in roughly two hours than all those amazing players were (and most of the rest of you) in multiple weeks. (Seems unlikely.)
2. You all didn't actually fully explore your options here.
3. You did fully explore your options, but for some reason you just refused to tell me about most of them.
Honestly, and I mean no offense by this, I think most of you are full of it. You make all those surefire claims and this is the result? What else am I supposed to think right now besides most of you didn't really try to make it work? It's basically confirmation bias the suspect test.