Metagame National Dex AG Metagame Discussion

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| 1 | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane | 120 | 80.00% | 51.67% |
64 Squares said:
''Oh yeah let me bring Xern in the meta where Necrozma-DM is the most popular mon.'' said no one ever. But yeah, this mon is really good and it makes sense for it to be used so much.
64 Squares said:
| 32 | Lugia | 3 | 2.00% | 100.00% |
Tbh I am surprised that Lugia's usage is THAT low and less used than Lunala, and while I think that it is harder to build around than Lunala, Lugia is so much bulkier and isn't as reliant on Multiscale.
64 Squares said:
| 17 | Gliscor | 14 | 9.33% | 78.57% |
Gliscor's usage and winrate is insanely high. I cannot believe that this mon's winrate is higher than Zacian-C, and I also don't know how does that make sense.
 
''Oh yeah let me bring Xern in the meta where Necrozma-DM is the most popular mon.'' said no one ever. But yeah, this mon is really good and it makes sense for it to be used so much.

Tbh I am surprised that Lugia's usage is THAT low and less used than Lunala, and while I think that it is harder to build around than Lunala, Lugia is so much bulkier and isn't as reliant on Multiscale.

Gliscor's usage and winrate is insanely high. I cannot believe that this mon's winrate is higher than Zacian-C, and I also don't know how does that make sense.
Where’d you find the stats? Is it in the Index Of Stats?
 

Kate

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Ok, this may seem probably crazy, but here it goes: Gen 8 AG must also follow a Dynamax Banlist just like Ubers. In the AG metagame, there are plenty of Dynamax abusers and I think the most prominent of all is the most viable AG mon: Yveltal. Yveltal can substantially raise its Speed thanks to Max Airstream and lower foes’ Special Defense thanks to Max Darkness, while also being able to summon sun in Max Flare to be able to boost its coverage, making it harder to deal with. After one Max Airstream, it is extremely hard to deal with due to it being able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame, which makes Dynamax an even more centralizing force in the metagame. Yes, we have other Flying-types in the tier like Gliscor or Ho-oh, but they mostly don’t use Flying-type moves, and if they did, it probably wouldn’t be a good option due to the EV spread most people use, and its role as a defensive mon means it won’t be able to.
It's AG; we don't ban things, plain and simple.
 

Chloe

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Hello. The Isle of Armor DLC is less than two weeks away, and with it comes a slew of additions to the base Sword and Shield game. Due to National Dex AG already including most of the returning Pokemon, there's not /that/ much that will impact our format. However, there a few notable and several less notable changes that may affect our metagame. Here are all the changes that we know of so far that will impact the National Dex AG format in the coming weeks.

Pokémon

Urshifu

Urshifu comes in two formes, Urshifu-Single-Strike and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. We do not know stats or movepools yet.

Single-Strike
Dark/Fighting | Unseen Fist Ability (Ignores Protect)
Signature Move: Wicked Blow - Dark-type attack that always results in a critical hit.

Rapid-Strike
Water/Fighting | Unseen Fist Ability (Ignores Protect)
Signature Move: Surging Strikes - Water-type attack that always results in a critical hit. (Based on description appears to hit three times)

Usefulness of Ability
In a metagame like Anything Goes, known users of Protect are currently:
Common: Ho-Oh, Ferrothorn, Smeargle, Sableye-Mega
Seldom used: Zacian-Crowned, Gengar-Mega, Diancie, Gliscor

Personal Prediction: I don't believe this ability will be too potent in this metagame other than forcing out Ferrothorn trying to gain passive recovery. Mega Sableye can still run Fake Out and doesn't miss out on much by doing this. Smeargle may have trouble as a lead against Surging Strikes Urshifu-RS due to it breaking Focus Sash and going through Protect on Moody set, otherwise this ability isn't too amazing in NatDex AG.

GMax
Urshifu has two Gigantamax formes, one for each Urshifu forme. One is a Dark-type GMax move, one is a Water-type GMax move. Both have the effect of breaking Protect & Max Guard. May be useful against defensive Dynamaxers like Necrozma-Dusk-Mane but I really don't know. We really just have to wait and see with this one, we don't know anywhere near enough.

Slowbro-Galar
Poison/Psychic | Quick Draw Ability (Function Unknown), It may still receive Regenerator as Hidden Ability as Slowpoke-Galar does too.
Signature Move: Shell Side Arm - Poison-type attack that changes between Physical/Special depending on what hits the opponent harder.

If this Pokemon retains Regenerator through Evolution, and gains access to Clear Smog, Slowbro-Galar can act as a somewhat reliable Geomancy Xerneas answer.

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro-Galar: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That being said, we still do not know that much about this Pokemon. Its stats may change dramatically or its movepool may not appear fruitful.

Zarude
Grass/Dark | Leaf Guard Ability
Signature Move: Jungle Healing - Status move that restores ?% health and heals status (most likely Life Dew + Refresh).

Known moves: Power Whip, Close Combat, Taunt, Swagger, Jungle Healing

Looks borderline useless in this metagame.

Other G-Max Formes
Venusaur - Charizard/Coalossal-GMax effect, except Grass-type
Blastoise - Charizard/Coalossal-GMax effect, except Water-type
Rillaboom - Stronger than Max Overgrowth, Doesn't take opponents ability into account. This effect excludes Prism Armor, Shadow Shield and FMB.
Cinderace - Stronger than Max Flare, Doesn't take opponents ability into account. This effect excludes Prism Armor, Shadow Shield and FMB.
Inteleon - Stronger than Max Geyser, Doesn't take opponents ability into account. This effect excludes Prism Armor, Shadow Shield and FMB.

None of these seem particularly useful. Blastoise would prefer to Mega Evolve to prevent Ditto Dynamaxing, or would prefer the Rain effect of Max Geyser. All three Galarian Starters would need substantial buffs to be useful in this metagame, for example Screens/Spikes becoming excessively common so that Cinderace's Court Change becomes more useful, Rillaboom's Grassy Glide allowing it to become a decent Kyogre revenge killer, etc.

Moves

Updated Learnsets

There's a plethora of returning Pokemon within the Isle of Armor DLC. These Pokemon are already available in National Dex AG, hence they are only relevant due to updated learnsets in Sword and Shield. Pokemon will gain access to moves listed below.

Somewhat Relevant
:Azumarill: - High Horsepower
:chansey: - Stored Power, (Wish+Teleport)
:skarmory: - Sand Tomb, Body Press
:slowbro::slowbro-mega: - Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Body Press, Muddy Water, (Teleport+Oblivious/Own Tempo)

Irrelevant
:Bouffalant: - Assurance, Body Slam, Endure, Close Combat, High Horsepower
:blissey: - Stored Power, (Wish+Teleport)
:Dedenne: - Electric Terrain, Endure, Electro Ball
:Dragalge: - Endure
:Druddigon: - Mega Punch, Body Slam, Endure
:Emolga: - Solar Beam, Swift, Eerie Impulse, Endure, Energy Ball
:Exeggutor: - Magical Leaf, Psycho Cut, Bulldoze, Future Sight, Calm Mind
:Exeggutor-Alola: - Magical Leaf, Breaking Swipe, Power Whip
:exploud: Hydro Pump
:Golduck: - Muddy Water
:Kangaskhan::kangaskhan-mega: - Beat Up, Assurance, Hydro Pump, Swift
:Kingdra: Hurricane, Breaking Swipe
:Krookodile: - Body Slam, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Endure
:Luxray: - Agility, Electro Ball, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs
:Lycanroc: - Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Rock Blast, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs, Swift, Assurance, Agility, Tail Slap, Endure, Play Rough
:Lycanroc-Midnight: - Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Rock Blast, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Payback, Low Sweep, Tail Slap, Endure, Play Rough
:Lycanroc-Dusk: - Giga Impact, Sandstorm, Rock Blast, Close Combat, Psychic Fangs, Focus Energy, Work Up, Endure, Play Rough
:Magnezone: - Self-Destruct, Heavy Slam, Body Press
:Mienshao: - Assurance, Brutal Swing, Blaze Kick, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Revenge, Agility, Focus Energy, Close Combat
:Politoed: - Screech, Weather Ball, Uproar, Liquidation
:Poliwrath: - Drain Punch, Reversal, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, High Horsepower, Liquidation
:Scizor::scizor-mega: - Sand Tomb, Assurance, Psycho Cut, Cross Poison
:Slowking: - Razor Shell, Muddy Water
:Starmie: - Agility, Psycho Cut
:Talonflame: - Hurricane, Fire Spin, Swift, Endure
:Tangrowth: - Solar Blade, Power Swap, Brutal Swing
:Tauros: - Revenge, Assurance, Reversal, Megahorn, Close Combat, High Horsepower, Throat Chop
:Tentacruel: - Cross Poison, Venom Drench, Brutal Swing
:Volcarona: - Mystical Fire, Attract
:Zoroark: - Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Encore, Swift, Revenge, Assurance, Hex, Endure

Could be Isle of Armor or Crown Tundra
:aggron::aggron-mega: - Body Press, Sand Tomb, Rock Blast, Scary Face, Hydro Pump, Crunch, High Horsepower, Swift
:Amoonguss: - Hex, Grassy Terrain, Pollen Puff
:Lurantis: - Psycho Cut, Cross Poison, Grassy Terrain, Magical Leaf, Bullet Seed, Endure

Move Tutor
Grassy Glide - Grass-type attack that hits with priority in Grassy Terrain. Known recipient: Rillaboom.
Burning Jealousy - Fire-type attack that burns an opposing Pokemon if it has boosted its stats that turn. Known recipient: Chandelure.
Expanding Force - Unknown Description.
Steel Roller - Unknown Description.
Scale Shot - etc etc
Meteor Beam
Misty Explosion
Rising Voltage
Terrain Pulse
Skitter Smack
Lash Out
Poltergeist
Corrosive Gas
Coaching
Flip Turn
Triple Axel
Dual Wingbeat
Scorching Sands

The majority of these move names were leaked a week prior to the announcement of the confirmed moves above and below. The leak got all of the confirmed ones right so the rest are a safe assumption.

GMax formes gain access to a Pokemon's whole legal Sword & Shield movepool
This in short means GMax Charizard gains access to Hurricane now, all GMax Pokemon that are not Pokemon exclusive to Galar should gain Toxic and whatnot now. Additions like these shouldn't really come into play unless someone really wants to run Toxic GMax Lapras.

Conclusion
In conclusion, there a few additions likely to affect the National Dex AG metagame; however, there are also a plethora of minor additions that will not affect the metagame whatsoever. I'm looking forward to seeing how the unrevealed moves pan out, and how Urshifu is. Thank you all for reading. I'll possibly make an updated list once the DLC comes out, but this is what we can expect so far once the DLC comes.
 
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Spyro

Banned deucer.
I´m not sure where to post this but I strongly feel there should not be a rule against forcing endless battles. Not because I want to force opponents into endless battles myself but because it goes against what AG stands for. This rule basically means it isn't truly AG. It's almost anything goes. If you find yourself trapped in an endless battle then it just becomes a game of who wants to forfeit first. I don't really see a big problem with that. I mean you should know what you're getting into when playing this tier. I´m sure this has been talked about before but it really bothers me that this rule is in place. Not that I would ever use this strategy but I´d honestly rather face this than moody and no sleep clause.
 

Geysers

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I´m not sure where to post this but I strongly feel there should not be a rule against forcing endless battles. Not because I want to force opponents into endless battles myself but because it goes against what AG stands for. This rule basically means it isn't truly AG. It's almost anything goes. If you find yourself trapped in an endless battle then it just becomes a game of who wants to forfeit first. I don't really see a big problem with that. I mean you should know what you're getting into when playing this tier. I´m sure this has been talked about before but it really bothers me that this rule is in place. Not that I would ever use this strategy but I´d honestly rather face this than moody and no sleep clause.
tfw the one like on a post advocating for endless battles is from pigeons. :blobthinking:
 

Geysers

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Having played around with some of the DLC stuff a bit, I feel that the largest impact on the AG meta is the addition of Meteor Beam to Eternatus’ movepool.
:ss/eternatus:
Eternatus @ Power Herb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Flamethrower
- Dynamax Cannon
- Recover

This set aims to lure Ho-Oh and OHKO it with a power herb meteor beam while also boosting its spa and (hopefully) allowing Eternatus to sweep. Meteor Beam also allows Eternatus to boost past non-Confide Chansey in a last mon 1v1, which can be very useful, as well as applying tremendous pressure to Pokemon like Yveltal and Lugia. Giving up Sludge Wave / Bomb is unfortunate, but a lot of people aren’t going to leave Xern in on Etern anyway, so it’s not that big of a deal. Below are some replays showcasing this set’s utility.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1134856723
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1134844798
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1134838527

side note: urshifu could be an interesting bulk up sweeper on webs, but I’m not really feeling it.
 
DLC is here! NatDex OU and AG however, are not affected by the new Pokemon as much as regular Gen 8 formats. In fact, I'd say GalarDex AG was affected more by the new Pokemon, returning Pokemon and their new moves. That being said, there are still some small things.


Probably one of if not the largest impact on the meta is, just like Geysers said, Eternatus getting Meteor Beam. This could come in handy when facing Ho-Oh, but Ho-Oh can't really switch into Eternatus already so :blobshrug:.


The other Pokemon that gets a move it didn't have before is Amoonguss getting Hex, which could possibly pair well with something like Toxic Spikes Eternatus, or Ho-Oh.


Urshifu has an extremely low BST for a legendary, but still is an interesting anti-cheese mon, probably the second best behind Zygarde-C. He could also be a nice sweeper on Webs.
100 HP
130 Atk
100 Def
63 SpA
60 SpD
97 Spe
(Not showing moves because that would take too much time.)


Zarude hasn't been released yet, but we now know the stats and movepool. Seems kinda useless, ngl.
105 HP
120 Atk
105 Def
70 SpA
95 SpD
105 Spe
Acrobatics
Assurance
Bind
Bite
Body Slam
Brick Break
Brutal Swing
Bulk Up
Bullet Seed
Close Combat
Crunch
Darkest Lariat
Dark Pulse
Dig
Drain Punch
Encore
Endure
Energy Ball
Facade
Fling
Fury Swipes
Giga Drain
Giga Impact
Grass Knot
Grassy Glide
Grassy Terrain
Hammer Arm
Hyper Beam
Hyper Voice
Iron Tail
Jungle Healing
Lash Out
Leer
Low Kick
Magical Leaf
Mega Kick
Mega Punch
Mud Shot
Nasty Plot
Payback
Power Whip
Protect
Rest
Revenge
Rock Slide
Rock Tomb
Round
Scary Face
Scratch
Seed Bomb
Sleep Talk
Snarl
Snore
Solar Beam
Solar Blade
Stomping Tantrum
Substitute
Sunny Day
Superpower
Swagger
Swift
Synthesis
Taunt
Thief
Thrash
Throat Chop
U-turn
Vine Whip
 
I'm trying to become a Baton Pass master in Gen 7 AG, this is the team I'm using, but it seems to lose to Taunt and Haze pretty easily. I need some advice. (Other than "don't use BP" I know its weak, but its fun)

https://pokepast.es/6e09a2929d9edb61
the team you posted is xynixpass which is a very solid baton pass team, The team's taunt counterplay is to baton pass in to espeon and magic bounce it back, the counterplay to haze is harder but you need to manage to get mr mime in on the haze user and use taunt
 

ADF Test

Banned deucer.

Urshifu @ Choice Band
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Iron Head
This thing is strong as heck and fuck as heck to use. You could run jolly to speed creep any weird supportceus sets but its really unnecessary. It is super fun and tears down a lot of walls in the meta (besides zygarde). Here is a neat balance I made with the mon. :p
 

Icemaster

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EDIT: Turns out it is a much larger nerf than I expected. All judgment and HPs will not change type. They will be far weaker. I have edited this post to reflect this.

Notable AG Pokemon which use moves which have been affected:

1) Xerneas:

Hidden Power is now useless.

You no longer OHKO NDM in base form, or 2HKO on Dynamaxed NDM. You completely lose the ability to use fire moves. Xerneas will be fine anyway, Substitute is a way better option than HP Fire.


2) Yveltal:

Yveltal is not affected. HP Rock and Rock Slide are not used anymore in favour of Knock Off/Taunt seeing as SupportCeus/Chansey are way more common checks to this. HP Poison is a bad meme from late 2019.

3) Kyogre:

Without Max Quake or Max Airstream, CM LO Kyogre is largely much much worse off, imo. Kyogre learns Mud Slap to replace HP Ground, but HP Flying will be gone. I guess Thunder / Mud Slap will be the last slot?
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyogre Max Quake vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Mud-Slap)

Previously was:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyogre Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 442-520 (109.4 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
HP Ground was used to OHKO all PDons and HP Flying to rack up speed boosts in order to sweep. HP Ground fails to OHKO SpDef PDons now, and HP Flying does way less although it's hard to point out specific calcs since you use it on weakened foes just to speedboost rather than KO stuff.

4) Offensive Arceus Formes which use Judgment:

These become worse. Not sure about specific calcs, but they will be defeated by offensive dynamaxers (Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde) more easily. They will be much more easily whirlwinded, as dynamaxing weakens them. More niche CM formes eg: Ground, Steel, Flying, Electric might become completely unviable. They will have to rely on other moves, but for some types such as Flying this is not an option. EDIT: Looking back these don't become that much worse, in fact ironically enough Waterceus probably gets buffed as it can absolutely murder what was a former check, SD PDon, even by running Mono Judge.

5) Defensive Dynamaxers which rely on their Judgment type:


These become much less effective. Arceus will no longer be an amazing blanket checker using defensive dynamaxes. They will have to rely on other moves, eg using Dark Pulse/Earth Power/Surf but for Fairy this is not an option. Fairyceus is now unviable. This is by far the largest change these new discovered mechanics will have. There will be probably dozens of calcs this effects but I'll only list a few which I found:
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 296-350 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Now:
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus Max Quake vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 190-225 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Before:
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus Max Quake vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 274-324 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now:
0 SpA Dread Plate Arceus Dark Pulse vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 204-241 (58.1 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Before:
0 SpA Dread Plate Arceus Dark Pulse vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 295-348 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Neutral Arceus formes no longer OHKO LO Ray after a DAscent anymore. Scary stuff)

Now:
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Yveltal: 276-326 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Before:
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Yveltal: 398-470 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You also do much less on Zygarde as a whole but those calcs are quite complicated - their could be any number of SpDef boosts 1-3, Zygarde could be complete or not, and in Dynamax everything does nothing on Zygarde anyway.

6.

Max Judgment no longer effects it. If it comes in on an Arceus forme without coverage or an alternative STAB, it will trap it.

Overall:
  • Xerneas gets a minor nerf.
  • Yveltal isn't really changed.
  • CM LO Kyogre gets a huge nerf. Expect it to run Mud-Slap or Thunder to try compensate - but they're bad moves anyway.
  • Offensive Arceus Formes get a large nerf. Expect them to run STABs like Surf instead.
  • Defensive Dynamaxing Arceus Formes get a large nerf. Expect them to run STABs like Surf instead. Fairyceus is unviable. This is the biggest change and as a result...
  • Gengar-Mega gets a buff trapping all Arceus which still use Judgment and not any other move given it comes in safetly and...
  • Certain Offensive Sweepers and Dynamaxers potentially get buffed as their checks in defensive Arceus formes are nerfed, eg Yveltal vs Fairyceus.
 
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Hidden Power & Judgment and Multi-Attack's damage has been implemented incorrectly. Currently Hidden Powers do 110 BP as if they were a normal base 60 move, and Judgment does 140 as if it was a normal base 100 move, but its been found that Silvally's Max Moves with Multi Attack are much weaker. As such, Judgment is being changed to 90 BP and HP 80 BP as their interactions were based off Multi Attack's. This has been implemented.

Notable AG Pokemon which use moves which have been affected:

1) Xerneas:

Hidden Power Fire is now far weaker.
80 BP:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 268-316 (67.3 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 268-316 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- 25.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Sun: 402-474 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

110 BP:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 367-433 (92.2 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 367-433 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 367-433 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You no longer OHKO NDM in base form, or 2HKO on Dynamaxed NDM. You completely lose the ability to use fire moves. Xerneas will be fine anyway, Substitute is a way better option than HP Fire.


2) Yveltal:

Yveltal is not affected. HP Rock and Rock Slide are not used anymore in favour of Knock Off/Taunt seeing as SupportCeus/Chansey are way more common checks to this. HP Poison is a bad meme from late 2019.

3) Kyogre:

Kyogre is affected quite a bit.
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyogre Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Previously was:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyogre Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 442-520 (109.4 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
HP Ground was used to OHKO all PDons and HP Flying to rack up speed boosts in order to sweep. HP Ground fails to OHKO SpDef PDons now, and HP Flying does way less although it's hard to point out specific calcs since you use it on weakened foes just to speedboost rather than KO stuff.

4) Offensive Arceus Formes which use Judgment:

These become much more weakened. Not sure about specific calcs, but they will be defeated by offensive dynamaxers (Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde) more easily. They will be much more easily whirlwinded, as dynamaxing weakens them. It shouldn't be too bad, as usually these are bulky and so can setup a ton of boosts anyway but more niche CM formes eg: Ground, Steel, Flying, Electric might become completely unviable. They could rely on other moves, but for some types such as Flying this is not an option.

5) Defensive Dynamaxers which rely on their Judgment type:


These become much less effective. Arceus will no longer be an amazing blanket checker using defensive dynamaxes. They may have to rely on other moves, eg using Dark Pulse/Earth Power/Surf but for Fairy this is not an option. This is by far the largest change these new discovered mechanics will have. There will be probably dozens of calcs this effects but I'll only list a few which I found:
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 296-350 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Now:
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus Max Quake vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 190-225 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
Before:
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus Max Quake vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 274-324 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now:
0 SpA Dread Plate Arceus Dark Pulse vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 204-241 (58.1 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Before:
0 SpA Dread Plate Arceus Dark Pulse vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 295-348 (84 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Neutral Arceus formes no longer OHKO LO Ray after a DAscent anymore. Scary stuff)

Now:
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Yveltal: 276-326 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Before:
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Yveltal: 398-470 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You also do much less on Zygarde as a whole but those calcs are quite complicated - their could be any number of SpDef boosts 1-3, Zygarde could be complete or not, and in Dynamax everything does nothing on Zygarde anyway.

Overall:
  • Xerneas gets a minor nerf.
  • Yveltal isn't really changed.
  • CM LO Kyogre gets a nerf.
  • Offensive Arceus Formes get a nerf.
  • Defensive Dynamaxing Arceus Formes get a large nerf. This is the biggest change and as a result...
  • Certain Offensive Sweepers and Dynamaxers potentially get buffed as their checks in defensive Arceus formes are nerfed, eg Yveltal vs Fairyceus.
This is... not actually correct.
The reason that the cut moves have been usable as Max Moves in the National Dex meta is that the datamined information from the game itself still included Max Move powers for them - there was no conjecture involved. The reason Hidden Power was 110 BP and Judgment was 140 BP is because those are the values the game itself sets for them, just like every other cut move that is presently usable as a Max Move, not just because anyone involved with the National Dex meta personally decided they should be that way or was trying to speculate on what Game Freak would do if they still existed.
This distinction is also the reason that Generation VIII moves cannot be used as the basis for Z-Moves - unlike with Max Moves, no such datamined values exist (because there's no Generation VII game with these moves buried in its code to cross-reference), and instead of guessing or following our best understanding of Game Freak's formula, they just weren't made usable at all. The leaders of the National Dex meta chose not to invent their own values for these interactions - it was always either "follow the game's data" or "don't let the upgraded version exist at all." In this case, the Max Move powers of Hidden Power and Judgment were the result of following the game's data.
 
This is... not actually correct.
The reason that the cut moves have been usable as Max Moves in the National Dex meta is that the datamined information from the game itself still included Max Move powers for them - there was no conjecture involved. The reason Hidden Power was 110 BP and Judgment was 140 BP is because those are the values the game itself sets for them, just like every other cut move that is presently usable as a Max Move, not just because anyone involved with the National Dex meta personally decided they should be that way or was trying to speculate on what Game Freak would do if they still existed.
This distinction is also the reason that Generation VIII moves cannot be used as the basis for Z-Moves - unlike with Max Moves, no such datamined values exist (because there's no Generation VII game with these moves buried in its code to cross-reference), and instead of guessing or following our best understanding of Game Freak's formula, they just weren't made usable at all. The leaders of the National Dex meta chose not to invent their own values for these interactions - it was always either "follow the game's data" or "don't let the upgraded version exist at all." In this case, the Max Move powers of Hidden Power and Judgment were the result of following the game's data.
Just wanted to clarify some things - Gen 8 moves can be used with Z moves and have always been able to (there was a rule about them not being able to be Z'd but it was never in effect) they use the default Z move base power table to calculate their BP. The information regarding this can be found in the mechanics thread here. The only one that doesnt follow these tables is Court Change, which has no Z effect, which does exist as Z Healing Wish also has no Z effect.

With regards to Judgment and Hidden Power Max BP's, we had some conflicting information regarding this. However after talking to some of the sites researchers, they have confirmed that they believe the correct BPs for Judgment and Hidden Power to be the previously implemented 130 and 110 respectively, so the changes made will be reverted on PS shortly.

I wanted to apologise for the confusion but as you can imagine working on the mechanics of a metagame where we cannot physically test all the interactions is quite difficult and we try our best to keep them in line with present mechanics / the closest comparison point.
 
Just wanted to clarify some things - Gen 8 moves can be used with Z moves and have always been able to (there was a rule about them not being able to be Z'd but it was never in effect) they use the default Z move base power table to calculate their BP. The information regarding this can be found in the mechanics thread here. The only one that doesnt follow these tables is Court Change, which has no Z effect, which does exist as Z Healing Wish also has no Z effect.

With regards to Judgment and Hidden Power Max BP's, we had some conflicting information regarding this. However after talking to some of the sites researchers, they have confirmed that they believe the correct BPs for Judgment and Hidden Power to be the previously implemented 130 and 110 respectively, so the changes made will be reverted on PS shortly.

I wanted to apologise for the confusion but as you can imagine working on the mechanics of a metagame where we cannot physically test all the interactions is quite difficult and we try our best to keep them in line with present mechanics / the closest comparison point.
An Update on this:

More research has been done and it has been confirmed that 110 and 130 are the accurate BPs for Max Hidden Power and Max Judgment HOWEVER it has also been confirmed that Max Hidden Power and Max Judgment will ALWAYS be Max Strike, regardless of the type or plate held. The full information can be found here.
 
From messing around with shiftpass for a few days, I'd like to share a core that has really been fun to work with (which probably will be no longer after I post this)

Magearna @ Weakness Policy / Occa Berry / Mental Herb / Shuca Berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 48 SpD / 212 Spe or 248 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
Calm / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Baton Pass
- Encore / Heart Swap
- Fleur Cannon / Substitute
  • shift gear + baton pass lets magearna function as a Shift Gear passer.
  • Encore gives Magearna a way to effectively punish attempts to set up or defog on Magearna, and also allows punishing of slower foes locked into undesirable moves. Prediction-reliant, however, since it causes a loss of momentum if used on the switch or Dynamax.
  • Heart Swap allows Magearna to check Xerneas when combined with Screens or the correct reducing berry (though this is changed as of the prior announcement). It also allows reclaiming of boosts from Ditto revenging killing a recipient with Outrage, though the Ditto will escape if this path is pursued. Anti-synergizes with weakness policy , however (unless your opponent plays like this guy.)
  • Fleur Cannon lets Magearna check Yveltal and prevents it from being completely passive. When combined with Weakness Policy, Magearna can serve as a snowball dynamax sweeper or just nuke something with +2 or +1 fleur cannon before passing its attack boosts. With encore, it can serve as an effective punish to some attempts to play around encore.
  • Substitute, if pulled off, lets recipients switch in much more easily on status moves and weak moves while providing some measure against Ditto if somehow preserved.
  • 212 Spe allows Magearna to outspeed Jolly Zacian at +2 while leaving more room for bulk than the alternative, though a Timid nature with 176 Spe allows Magearna to outspeed everything up to Scarf Kyogre at +2
  • Weakness Policy when successfully activated can allow Magearna to sweep teams lacking proper fairy resists and also allows passing of a much more deadly +3 Atk/+2 Spe to recipients.
  • Occa Berry stops Magearna from getting OHKOed by Fire moves from Mega Rayquaza, Yveltal, and enterprising Primal Groudon.
  • Mental Herb prevents getting shut down unexpectedly by Taunt, useful when not running fleur cannon.
  • Shuca Berry stops Magearna from getting OHKOed by Ground moves from Mega Rayquaza, Primal Groudon, +1 Dynamax Giratina-Origin (Ditto), boosted Necrozma-DM, etc.


This was inspired by a random mention of someone pairing a Ghostceus with a Magearna.


Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Force
- Dragon Tail / Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Magic Coat
  • Shadow Force is the obligitory stab of choice and also lets Giratina beat Ditto, assuming both click the move at the same time. As Shadow Force has the same power as Outrage, Giratina can be dynamaxed if at high HP to survive +1 Shadow Force from Ditto and OHKO with a STAB move. Max Phantasm's defense-lowering trait can situationally prove useful against Dynamax Necrozma-DM and Yveltal.
  • Dragon Tail punishes attempts to play around Shadow Force by hard switching on it while also preventing phazing from Ho-Oh, Lugia, Primal Groudon, etc. and also preventing Ditto from effectively using it against Giratina, though its negative priority can prove problematic otherwise. When paired with a defense Drop from Max Phantasm, Giratina can defeat Dynamaxed Life Orb Yveltal with its Max Wyrmwind.
  • Outrage's greater power than even Dynamax Dragon Tail and neutral priority lets Giratina more consistently sweep, though it leaves Giratina prone to being exploited if not performed behind a substitute and can result in Giratina getting revenge killed by Zacian-C or losing due to confusion. It also 2HKOes uninvested Dynamax Yveltal, allowing Giratina to win against it without Dynamaxing if Giratina starts behind a substitute, though this leaves Giratina exploitable if Outrage continues for an additional turn. Outrage is also relatively unattractive for use by opposing Ditto, as Magearna can simply reclaim the boosts or outright remove the Ditto after Ditto uses Outrage. In addition, thanks to Giratina's very high HP stat and partial reliance on Grisious Orb for damage output, Dynamaxing Giratina allows Giratina to survive +1 Outrage from Ditto and even +1 Max Phantasm or Wyrmwind.
  • Earthquake helps ease prediction and is Giratina's best option to defeat substitute Zacian-Crowned, though its lack of power is rather disturbing; neutral Earthquake is outdamaged by Dragon Tail, while super effective Earthquake is outdamaged by Shadow Force. Further, +1 Earthquake is a roll (94% with sr/56% without) to KO Zacian which would otherwise counter Giratina-O or force Giratina to dynamax. Max Quake, however, is decently strong, outdamaging max Phantasm against super effective targets.
  • Shadow Sneak can prevent Scarf Marshadow from singlehandedly countering the set, but is incredibly weak otherwise, hits nothing else, and actually often misses the KO. Also gives Ditto a tool to use against Giratina.
  • Substitute reduces the amount of prediction required when using attacks, prevents Ditto from transforming into Giratina, and blocks status moves like glare and will-o-wisp, though losing HP causes Giratina to lose important Dynamax matchups against Yveltal (in the worst case where Yveltal gets a free switch at full HP), certain Necrozma-DM, and itself.
  • Magic Coat instead of substitute can let giratina fight against phazing and status at the same time without costing HP, though is also prediction reliant and is kind of a waste. Can be useful for anti-leading certain leads, however.

  • Full Attack investment with a boosting nature gives Giratina as much power as possible, giving +1 Giratina offensive power marginally greater than a +0 Life Orb Mega Rayquaza on its STAB moves after a Grisious Orb boost. Even with maximum investment, Earthquake is a roll on Zacian-C even with Stealth Rock up.
  • 28 Spe EVs let Giratina outspeed +1 neutral-natured Yveltal so as to 2HKO it before Yveltal can 2HKO back. An extra 100 Spe EVs allows outspeeding +1 neutral-natured Mega Rayquaza at +2, though the loss in HP investment causes LO Yveltal's Max Darkness to have a chance to OHKO Dynamax Giratina at full HP, and this really shouldn't be an issue.
  • The rest of the EVs go into HP to maximize Giratina's bulk and power. An odd HP value is chosen to allow Giratina to use Substitute 4 times from full HP.
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Max Darkness vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Dynamax Giratina-Origin: 814-959 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, guarenteed 2HKO otherwise
+1 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Yveltal: 382-450 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO, guarenteed after Stealth Rock or Life Orb chip
+1 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Max Phantasm (Shadow Force) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Yveltal: 222-262 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Max Wyrmwind (Dragon Tail) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Yveltal: 526-621 (66.9 - 79%) -- Guarenteed KO after +1 Max Phantasm and Life Orb chip

+1 252+ Atk Giratina-Origin (Ditto) Max Wyrmwind/Phantasm (140 BP) vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Giratina-Origin: 714-840 (71.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Max Phantasm/Wyrmwind (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Ditto (Giratina-Origin): 852-1004 (142 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Giratina has options to defeat Ditto.

0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Giratina-Origin: 97-115 (19.5 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexag-1155496187
+1 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Max Wyrmwind (Dragon Tail) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 422-498 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+1 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 445-523 (132.8 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 333-393 (83.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Max Phantasm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 388-459 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Prism Armor is a totally broken ability that lets defensive Necrozma-DM survive a +1 Shadow Force from full, though it loses most Dynamax matchups unless Giratina is heavily weakened beforehand, and boosts from Max Steelspike are not helpful vs Giratina thanks to Max Phantasm.

+3 252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-Origin Max Phantasm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 426-502 (102.4 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lugia usually takes a super-effective hit from Giratina unless Shadow Shield is broken.

Giratina's wonderful typing (in combo with mag) and ability give it the privilege of forcing out or at least defeating many Pokemon that would otherwise exploit Magearna, including Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, non-Whirlwind Lugia, V-Create/Earthquake Mega Rayquaza, Groudon-Primal, Kyogre, Ho-Oh (if somehow switching in on sacred without getting burned), Groundceus, Waterceus, and Extreme Killer Arceus.
Once Giratina is in, the opposing Pokemon is often forced out thanks to disadvantagous matchup, giving Giratina a free Substitute to help aid prediction. Attempts to phaze Giratina or play around Shadow Force can be easily punished with Dragon Tail if ran, giving Giratina positive matchups against Lugia, Whirlwind Ho-Oh, non-Haze Zygarde-C, and other phazing Pokemon that don't actually use Haze. Giratina also happens to be able to become highly dynamax resistant much like Ghostceus, albeit with more effort.
For reference, Giratina-O's +1 Grisious Orb-boosted attacks hit very slightly harder than +0 Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent, making on the spot calculations for Giratina's STAB moves very smooth for the experienced player. While that may not seem like enough, Giratina-O's massive HP pool and ability to Dynamax largely compensates for this, and Giratina's power can be further bolstered by additional Shift Gear boosts.
While admittably rather prediction-heavy to work in practice (having the correct Pokemon in at the right time, and perfectly timing multiple moves), when pulled off, attempts to predict baton pass to Giratina can be punished by clicking virtually any other move than Baton pass and taking a toxic or resisted attack, and when they finally decide to remove Magearna (clicking Precipice Blades, for example) Giratina can safely be baton passed to.

I've paired the core with screens and/or a pokemon with a different effectiveness profile than giratina to good effect, since Zacian-C threatens the core with powerful neutral behemoth blades, and behemoth blade->play rough is a KO on both Magearna and Giratina (which admittably my choice of zekrom wasn't helping with).

The core overall struggles vs Marshadow, Ho-Oh, and non-Scarf ditto in particular, and Zacian-C is somewhat shaky as well, though good prediction/pairing/screens helps a lot with that. Magearna in general is relatively exploitable: the most it can do to discourage Defog is use encore after its usage, and because Magearna does not learn Magic Coat, Taunt, or a phazing move of its own, Whirlwind, Roar, and Haze are all very effective ways to shut Magearna down.
(vs VeryBalancedTeam) replay showing use of dtail giratina, though I won via hax thanks to a random one-off sash ditto and some subpar play on my side.
(1619) replay showing use of passing weakness policy boosts and two shift gears to devestating effect. Opponent played relatively poorly.
(1476) another replay of passing shift gears and weakness policy to great effect, though opponent was playing even less adeptly
(1552) Another replay of playing vs poor opponent, this time where encore magearna is used to prevent lugia from phazing magearna.
(1410) Opponent trying to play around shadow force/dtail/earthquake giratina
(1605) Another Giratina sweep
 
Last edited:

Geysers

But my sorrows, they learned to swim
is a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Hi there! As most of you probably know, I've been working recently on a program to automatically build AG teams. This program has consumed significant amounts of time and effort, and I thought I'd share my progress here. The current version of the bot is capable of building balance or offense teams for either gen7 or natdex, while having a great deal of customizability available for its building style. Anyone who is interested in running this program should check out this thread, which contains more information: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/a-basic-teambuilding-script-for-ag.3667836/ Currently, the bot creates surprisingly usable teams, especially for natdex AG. Unfortunately, I don't have enough viable sets available for the bot to truly produce useful variety in its teams, so many of them end up looking almost identical. To that end, I'm requesting that anyone who desires to submit a set or sets for this send me the sets in the format used in this file https://github.com/Geyserexe/BuilderBot/blob/dev-3/src/mon-sets/natdexsets.json, along with a brief explanation of what the set does and why I should use it. So this post isn't purely a plug for my bot, I'll also share some stuff I've learned about the metagame from working on this project.
  • Eternatus is a lot easier to build around than I thought, and Toxic Spikes sets are incredibly good.
  • It's possible to build balance teams with offensive Dusk Mane, albeit very tricky, because no other Zacian check is as reliable.
  • Ho-Oh isn't as mandatory as it used to be, thanks to the splashability of defog support Arcs.
  • Giratina is really good, and is a very solid defogger for balance and stall teams.
  • Ktut's firium Z spdef Etern set is still very viable, and can provide powerful offensive Pokemon with very useful Toxic Spikes support.
Below are a bunch of teams that the bot has built
https://pokepast.es/4d024d50fe6467c6
https://pokepast.es/3274d31ea99cb8b1
https://pokepast.es/ec072ad6267d63ae
https://pokepast.es/1ed491eac2f45c72
https://pokepast.es/a8d837ca18493ab7
https://pokepast.es/349bc7275a05cf53
https://pokepast.es/7e3cc4a4f5e02fd9
https://pokepast.es/7ac92a95e0cebfae
https://pokepast.es/cd760bb1043e14e2
https://pokepast.es/95cb26d5c3555bf7
https://pokepast.es/9bf5e312b2906788
 

Chloe

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
NUPL Champion
It's been a while since I posted in regards to weird sets I've been using, so let me do that. I'm not going to claim that either of these are viable; however, they are usable and I've cheesed wins against multiple competent players with both of them. This is mostly just me trying to breathe life back into the thread.


Kommo-o @ Salac Berry
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Close Combat
- Dual Chop / Iron Head
- Substitute


Poliwrath @ Blunder Policy
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Hypnosis
- Close Combat
- Liquidation

Since even before last AGPL, Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Water have seen increased prevalence throughout tournament play. My thought while using these sets was to abuse these Pokemon rising substantially in usage, setting up on them with ease and dealing significant damage to opposing teams. The former pretty much adores going up against Arceus-Dark, as Perish Song doesn't affect it and Calm Mind sets are forced out as it clicks Substitute + Belly Drum and sweeps. It outspeeds Zacian-C, Deoxys-A and whatever else after the Salac Berry boost. There is very little teams can do to avoid being OHKOed by this Pokemon. Defensive Dynamax is often a requirement if a team lacks Ditto or Lugia.

+6 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 424-499 (106.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 405-477 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water/Ground: 441-520 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Kommo-o Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 438-516 (104.2 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-> +6 252 Atk Kommo-o Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 588-696 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO

+6 252 Atk Kommo-o Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 558-656 (173.8 - 204.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (preventing Focus Sash counter sweep)

Poliwrath is similar except a little weaker, but it sets up on Necrozma-DM and Arceus-Water easier. Hypnosis also allows it to break through any potential walls such as defensive Dynamax. It relies more on chance than Kommo-o does, which is why Kommo-o is generally preferable. A problem with both is that coverage can appear difficult, for example, if you are to run Dragon-type & Fighting-type coverage on Kommo-o, it struggles to overwhelm Arceus-Fairy and Xerneas. If you run Steel-type or Poison-type coverage, you don't beat Focus Sash Marshadow. In tournament games, I'd suggest Iron Head, whereas on ladder Dual Chop is better. These are incredibly niche, but against the right team they can do substantial damage. They're definitely preferable in tournament play due to the lack of apt set up opportunities against the ladder's constant drone of offense. Anyway, thank you for reading, I love you and I hope you have a lovely day.
 
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