BH National Dex Balanced Hackmons

[Champion Leon]

To generate some discussion, like my first post in this thread did after a lengthy inactive period, I wanted to ask people what they think about Z-moves.

I know sometimes it can feel very outdated, and situational, but at the very least it blocks Trick, cannot be Knocked Off, and allows for a situational benefit for your team. This is especially true when you have multiple moves of the same type that can benefit from the Z-item.

Take for instance Z-Parting Shot, not only does it maintain the effect of its original use: lower your foe's offenses, and pivot to an ally, but it now fully heals an ally.

It can be paired with Prankster to quickly get in an ally before the foe lays down entry hazards, or can be used on a slow pivot to safely get an ally in after the foe lands their strike.

If you have another Dark-type move in your moveset, such as Knock Off, it could instead be used to boost the damage to 120 base power, bypassing the low to average base power of Knock-Off to secure certain KOs.

Other good Z-moves can be used for bypassing abilities like Normalize, such as when your opponent uses Entrainment (except Status moves), allowing you to launch an unresisted hit. Lastly, they bypass limitations such as allowing you to use a move after being Taunted, Imprisoned, or Encored.

Z-moves also have the unique quality in breaking past Protection moves, dealing 25% damage. If you have a powerful, yet situational move, such as Doom Desire, or Gigaton Hammer, it can also be used between turns so you can maintain offensive pressure, while firing off a 200 base power attack.

Drawbacks include the opportunity cost of not having an item that lasts beyond 1-use, and requiring a valid move for the Z-Crystal to be worthwhile (i.e. including a move of the corresponding Z-Crystal type).

In my opinion, similar to Tera, Z-moves are to be built after the team is nearly finalized, and should not be the focus of the team's usage. For example, if I recognize that my Zygarde-Complete's Prankster Parting Shot could come in handy because as a wall, it ends up facing Knock-Off anyways, then a Z-Crystal can make sense. Other times, and on most occasions, however, I find that Leftovers is much more necessary, especially as my specific team forces switches, and allows slow pivots to easily send in Zygarde-C at the end of the turn, generating free Leftover heals.

Ultimately, have you considered Z-moves for the following?

1. Their overall implications on the metagame.

2. Incorporating into your teambuilding

3. Discovering any particular niches that are unexplored

4. Highlighting something that you feel everyone should already know (like Z-Parting Shot).

5. If their popularity will change if Tera gets banned (due to having less in-battle options for teambuilding).

For reference: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Z-Move

 

[Chessking345]

I think Z-moves were a cool and interesting part of the metagame last gen, but this gen there are so many problems with Z-moves (not in order of relevance other than point 1):

1. Tera. Tera is such as massive reason why Z-moves are not used. Taking away the ability to Tera is such as massive downside compared to the one-time bonus of a Z-move. Offensive mons can get more mileage by just using Tera for damage while defensive mons far more value the defensive utility of Tera. In almost all cases if the mon can Tera it will never run a Z-crystal. This massively reduces the amount of possible Z-crystal users.
2. Tera. So Z-moves are really only viable on stuff that can't Tera in the first place, but because these mons cannot Tera they have already worse viability compared to competition.
3. Tera. Defensive Tera makes it risky for offensive z-moves to be used because they can be easily wasted.
4. Tera. Offensive Tera damage output makes defensive mons more reliant on longevity items. The overall higher bulk level also means offensive mons more reliant on high damage items like Choice and Life Orb.
5. Defensive item competition. Tying in the point above, this gen introduced two strong items, Covert Cloak and Ability Shield. These two combined with the previous Boots and Leftovers as well as other more niche stuff like Plates and Helmet make it hard to justify running a Z-crystal, especially when power level is so high so these items provide crucial safety nets.
6. Offensive item competition. Tying into point 3 again, higher potential offensive power due to Tera means more bulk padding which means offensive mons need even more raw power (see: Zyg, Scales Dialga-O, good old Arceus) and Choice items and Life Orb just provide that more than a one-off spike of Z-move that could leave the offensive mon completely unthreatening afterwards.
7. The high power level also means that defensive mons kind of have less freedom of running cool status moves that work with Z-move. Z-Parting Shot is hard to improof, Prank Z-Haze can still be useful but Prank has kind of dipped a bit(?), other interesting ones like Z-Teleport are also niche. Note that this also means that Knock Off is ever slightly less used because stuff want to fit moves like all the utility moves ranging from anti-setup to the new hazard moves to ability suppression to pivot.
8. Normalize has kind of drastically fell off even on ladder. MGar usage is at an all time low. Ability Shield provides a consistent alternative to checking Normalize.
I'll edit in more if I remember anything else

That being said, there are still some decent Z-crystal users. Though, I have to disagree with "Z-moves are to be built after the team is nearly finalized" because I think these Z-crystal users are basically bound to their set, so when you want to use the set you generally just run the Z-crystal. Its not like before where you have a team and you want to usually have at least one Z-crystal user. Anyways two decent users I've seen:

Doom Desire Dialga-O. Z-Doom Desire is highly justifiable due to the immediate nuke, and Dialga-O also has the useful trait of having a naturally really good typing so it can kind of live without the ability to Tera. Set is stolen from anaconja's team. Ability and other moves are customizable. Can also be seen on Steelceus as an alternative to the probably more common Anchor Shot sets (notably gives less Strength Sap healing).
Event Horizon (Dialga-Origin) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Doom Desire
- Dragon Tail
- Ceaseless Edge
- Strength Sap

Mega Diancie. Diancie is a reasonably good Z-move user. It cannot Tera anyways, it has enough power without a boosting item, it has great mixed potential, and alternative items like Choice Specs (better in gen8) are worse because it can't 2HKO Dialga-O anyways and is somewhat outclassed by mons like Flutter Mane who can Tera. With Groundium Z Diancie can lure stuff like Dialga-O.
Diancie-Mega @ Groundium Z
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- Thousand Waves
- V-create

Other potential users that I think can be decent but haven't tried include Psychium Z Slowbro (One turn Future Sight and Z-Teleport), some Z-Haze Prankster, Groundium-Z Waves Primal Kyogre, Groundium-Z Swampert-Mega.

Overall I think Z-crystals kind of suck right now but if Tera goes then they will be much more relevant with all the Arceus formes, Zyg, Zac-C etc all using it, and I think with all the new stuff there can be a lot of stuff done with them.

Necrozma-Ultra @ Life Orb
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: can't tera, dunno whether is this intentional or not
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Glaive Rush
- Strength Sap
- V-create

UNecro can't tera presumably because similar to megas and primals it uses a generational mechanic (z-crystal coincidentally) to be its form. I think I was theorymonning for UNecro but never got a really satisfactory set. You should probably run Jolly btw because otherwise max speed Arceus outspeeds. Also not sure if you considered UNecroZ as the item since you can't Tera anyways and it provides a really strong nuke. I think maybe anaconja was considering a mixed set too, I think it was specially oriented but with physical Photon (drop 1 special attack to make physical) but you can probably make a physically oriented with special photon work?

Also incredible 2 teams without zyg.

 

[Champion Leon]

I think Z-moves were a cool and interesting part of the metagame last gen, but this gen there are so many problems with Z-moves...

Thank you for your perspective. I did not include portions where I completely agree.

1. Tera. Tera is such as massive reason why Z-moves are not used. Taking away the ability to Tera is such as massive downside compared to the one-time bonus of a Z-move. Offensive mons can get more mileage by just using Tera for damage while defensive mons far more value the defensive utility of Tera. In almost all cases if the mon can Tera it will never run a Z-crystal. This massively reduces the amount of possible Z-crystal users.

I view this as not replacing, but having both on the same team. Afterall, most people would feel like Tera is best reserved for certain Pokemon on their team, and in most games, it is the same 1-3 candidates. If you already have something that does not often use, or need it, or if it cannot Tera at all, then a Z-move is unaffected by Tera because they do not compete on the same Pokemon.

2. Tera. So Z-moves are really only viable on stuff that can't Tera in the first place, but because these mons cannot Tera they have already worse viability compared to competition.

I dunno, I think MMX is very viable, and it cannot Tera. It supplements with Libero, and while that can feel limiting, in many ways Tera can be limiting since you cannot change types back once you activate it. MMX also frees up Tera for a teammate, so I think its just perspective.

Would a Z-Move work on it? Not necessarily, but I still question whether not missing out on being able to Tera is as big of a blow to viability. Kyogre Primal, MMY, MMX, and a few others are some of the most common I see, and none can Tera. I agree to a degree on your point, just not to the extent you make it.

3. Tera. Defensive Tera makes it risky for offensive z-moves to be used because they can be easily wasted.

I agree, yes. If you use a Corkscrew Crash from Dialga's Doom Desire as the base attack, but they Tera into a Fire-type, you are not dealing nearly as much. However, if they know your set, such as in a rematch, and they Tera because they know you have a Z-move in the wings, you have forced them to use it.

They may not have needed to use Tera against regular Doom Desire, since they could just switch out in the turn before it lands, to a Fire-type, whereas, for the Z-move, being a 1-turn, they had to Tera in order to survive that turn and avoid losing momentum. This may have more to do with the original attack's effect of being delayed, but that's another benefit of a Z-move, it breaks the rules of the original attack's requirements. And therefore, through the Z-move, you forced their hand, and they cannot Tera again.

7. The high power level also means that defensive mons kind of have less freedom of running cool status moves that work with Z-move. Z-Parting Shot is hard to improof, Prank Z-Haze can still be useful but Prank has kind of dipped a bit(?), other interesting ones like Z-Teleport are also niche. Note that this also means that Knock Off is ever slightly less used because stuff want to fit moves like all the utility moves ranging from anti-setup to the new hazard moves to ability suppression to pivot.

Z-Parting Shot can be improofed via Magic Bounce. If you have Prankster Parting Shot, then a Dark-type can also do the trick. Imposter Magic Bounce + Prankster Parting Shot can also work in reverse to force out Imposter if they come in on your Magic Bouncer, so they can function vice versa as well. In most cases, whenever you could use Good As Gold, Magic Bounce can replace it, justifying Parting Shot on a teammate.

8. Normalize has kind of drastically fell off even on ladder. MGar usage is at an all time low. Ability Shield provides a consistent alternative to checking Normalize

Hmm, I feel like a Z-Crystal can be better than Ability Shield, especially since you mentioned that Normalize is not as common, so you could end up using an item that serves no purpose, whilest at least a Z-Crystal has 1x use each game.

6. Offensive item competition. Tying into point 3 again, higher potential offensive power due to Tera means more bulk padding which means offensive mons need even more raw power (see: Zyg, Scales Dialga-O, good old Arceus) and Choice items and Life Orb just provide that more than a one-off spike of Z-move that could leave the offensive mon completely unthreatening afterwards.

I agree. I think on Pokemon like a MMX, Life Orb or a Choice item makes more sense.
However, for Ultranecrozium Z, Dawn-Wings or Dusk-Mane can Improof via Transforming, and having a Z-move is optional / a nice bonus.

Ultra-Necrozma V-Create 1HKOs Imposter Dusk-Mane without Eviolite after using Shift Gear OR Orichalcum Pulse Sunny weather, even with max Def EVs (just use a -Def nature).

+1 252+ Atk Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra V-create vs. 252 HP / 252- Def IMPOSTER CHANSEY Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 725-855 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For Dawn-Wings, I didn't even need a +1 SpA, just 1 hazard to secure the 1HKO.

252+ SpA Neuroforce Necrozma-Ultra Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD IMPOSTER CHANSEY Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 650-765 (91 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

This may be unique to these 2 Pokemon, but consider that they not only Improof and likely KO'd Imposter, now, I can also use the Z-move later in the match. Dawn-Wings, especially Fur Coat variants, have enough of a usage on their own, where you wouldn't assume it would transform, the way you would Kangaskhan.

Lastly, due to the form change, you are also changing-type, which can be a bit of a consolation prize in now having new resistances (Water, Electric, and Fire are some of the most common offensive attack-types), without having to Tera.

Eviolite is far less common on Chansey due to Covert Cloak being an option, in addition to the newly common Lucky Punch. Therefore, it is easier to KO Imposter in the calcs above.

Here is an example:

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 68 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Shift Gear
- V-create
- Gigaton Hammer / Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser

It bluffs as a standard bulky offensive set-up sweeper, only to completely go into Improof mode, outspeeding Scarf Imposter with ease. Further, it will force out Fairy-types / Ice-types like Xerneas before it Transforms.

Plus, if you choose not to transform, you still have a heavy-hitter, who can threaten much of the metagame:

+1 252+ Atk Orichalcum Pulse Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 459-541 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Orichalcum Pulse Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 459-541 (91 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Orichalcum Pulse Necrozma-Dusk-Mane V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus in Sun: 517-609 (116.4 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Chessking345]

I view this as not replacing, but having both on the same team. Afterall, most people would feel like Tera is best reserved for certain Pokemon on their team, and in most games, it is the same 1-3 candidates. If you already have something that does not often use, or need it, or if it cannot Tera at all, then a Z-move is unaffected by Tera because they do not compete on the same Pokemon.

If a mon can Tera, then running a Z-crystal on it removes that potential completely. Having the ability to Tera is almost always useful, because that flexibility of Tera is extremely powerful. You usually set Tera types to what the team requires anyways (setting it so that you have an emergency check to something) so if you set that Tera it means there are situations you can use it. Having dedicated Tera or Teras is most certainly a suboptimal way to utilize the mechanic. Also, you don't have that much flexibility anyways because it is common to have some mons incapable of Tera or usually do not use it (eg. Imposter). That being said, I mentioned later in the post that even for mons that cannot Tera, Z-crystals are rarely optimal. Consider the top mons that cannot Tera (MMY, MGar, MMX, POgre, and Diancie), MMY practically never runs a Z, MGar is always Plate or Specs, MMX practically never runs a Z, POgre's only current relevant set is PH, and Diancie I mentioned as a decent Z-user.
The reason why Megas/POgre are used despite no Tera is because the alternative is a lot worse. MMY offers significant advantages over Deo-A, POgre offers some distinct traits over Arceus-Water, same with MGar/Diancie over Flutter Mane. When a mon doesn't have too much to offer it starts to be a lot worse. Again, see the Slowbro vs Dondozo in the kickoff tour, where Slowbro's record is significantly worse over a very moderately sized sample..

I dunno, I think MMX is very viable, and it cannot Tera. It supplements with Libero, and while that can feel limiting, in many ways Tera can be limiting bc you cannot change types back once you activate it. MMX also frees up Tera for a teammate, so I think its just perspective.

Would a Z-Move work on it? Not necessarily, but I still question whether not missing out on being able to Tera is as big of a blow to viability. Kyogre Primal, MMY, MMX, and a few others are some of the most common I see, and none can Tera. I agree to a degree on your point, just not to the extent you make it.

If you consider last gens VR, stuff like MGar, POgre, and MMX all moderately dropped while MMY basically stayed the same tier (A was an undersell last gen, its more or less A+ rn) while getting big boosts with stuff like Lumina Crash and Libero.

Hmm, I feel like a Z-Crystal can be better than Ability Shield, especially since you mentioned that Normalize is not as common, so you could end up using an item that serves no purpose, whilest at least a Z-Crystal has 1x use each game.

FC AS Zyg or almost any Scales AS users wall Normalize while checking moldy moves users AND retaining the ability to Tera. Far more useful than a potentially one off Z-move check.

However, for Ultranecrozium Z, Dawn-Wings or Dusk-Mane can Improof via Transforming, and having a Z-move is optional / a nice bonus.

I mentioned the potential use of Z on UNecro. Issue here is that all 3 Necrozma formes suck. UNecro seems useable on paper but takes way too much from common moves, not being able to break super common defensive mons depending on the set, and is just overall outclassed by stuff like DeoA MMY MMX. Dawn Wings defensively is completely outclassed by Lunala because you run Teleport anyways and the bulk difference far outweighs the SpA increase. Dusk Mane is the most viable (and likely the only ranked) of the three but after using a team with it for reqs I can confirm it is pretty much useless. Out of the at least 20 games I played that team with there was like 1 or 2 games where it accomplished something. Its bulk is just too low when it gets 2HKOed by everything without or with like the smallest of chip and typing isn't great either. The games where it did something was against lower elo players as well. Only because I am lazy that I didn't replace it yet.
Thats only for defensive NDM btw, offensive is just a gimmick. Competent player sees setup NDM they don't try to check with Imposter when they know that this is the only niche NDM has over straight up better mons like Zac-C and Kartana. It also deals no damage so you are hopelessly walled by Zyg, forcing it to run GLance, + the move intended for Imposter leaves one STAB choice between Sunsteel or Photon, making you strongly consider your life choices and why you didn't just use Zac-C or MMX respectively.

 

[Champion Leon]

If a mon can Tera, then running a Z-crystal on it removes that potential completely. Having the ability to Tera is almost always useful, because that flexibility of Tera is extremely powerful. You usually set Tera types to what the team requires anyways (setting it so that you have an emergency check to something) so if you set that Tera it means there are situations you can use it. Having dedicated Tera or Teras is most certainly a suboptimal way to utilize the mechanic. Also, you don't have that much flexibility anyways because it is common to have some mons incapable of Tera or usually do not use it (eg. Imposter). That being said, I mentioned later in the post that even for mons that cannot Tera, Z-crystals are rarely optimal. Consider the top mons that cannot Tera (MMY, MGar, MMX, POgre, and Diancie), MMY practically never runs a Z, MGar is always Plate or Specs, MMX practically never runs a Z, POgre's only current relevant set is PH, and Diancie I mentioned as a decent Z-user.

I agreed with most of this already in my last post: "Thank you for your perspective. I did not include portions where I completely agree." This covers your 4th point and 5th point which highlights the opportunity cost, and I mentioned I agreed with your 3rd point.

In regards to the dedicated Tera candidates, my point was that in a given set of games, most of the time the same Pokemon (usually around 3) are typically the Tera candidate. For example, I rarely ever feel the need to Tera my Tapu-Fini, partially because its niche is its unique typing, and 2, because the other teammates need it more.

Have I ever Tera'd on it? Yes, but that was like 1 or 2 times, and only late in the match after I see that my other teammates don't need it more. My team uses stall and defensive pivots, so my team doesn't waste it early, and I played many matches that were over 100 turns, so I noticed that the longest matches benefited from preserving my Tera and it was rarely ever on Tapu Fini. In such long matches, I was able to study my own patterns based on the situations and noticed who needs a Tera more.

So, yes it makes a difference, but it's not like most people would say that in 12 games, each of their 6 Pokemon used Tera 2x each. There would be up to 3 that would stick out.

The reason why Megas/POgre are used despite no Tera is because the alternative is a lot worse. MMY offers significant advantages over Deo-A, POgre offers some distinct traits over Arceus-Water, same with MGar/Diancie over Flutter Mane. When a mon doesn't have too much to offer it starts to be a lot worse. Again, see the Slowbro vs Dondozo in the kickoff tour, where Slowbro's record is significantly worse over a very moderately sized sample..

If you consider last gens VR, stuff like MGar, POgre, and MMX all moderately dropped while MMY basically stayed the same tier (A was an undersell last gen, its more or less A+ rn) while getting big boosts with stuff like Lumina Crash and Libero.

I'm aware of how important Tera is, I use it to change the fate of outcomes, and it works often in my favor. My point was, you said:

2. Tera. So Z-moves are really only viable on stuff that can't Tera in the first place, but because these mons cannot Tera they have already worse viability compared to competition.

But Pokemon like MMX are still in the upper tiers, and that's a sign that a great Pokemon not being able to Tera only hurts it so much. In the case of VR since last generation, you mentioned "moderately", but that's also due to other factors, like the introduction of new Pokemon, abilities, and items, not just Tera, and I think competent players understand that...

I mentioned the potential use of Z on UNecro. Issue here is that all 3 Necrozma formes suck. UNecro seems useable on paper but takes way too much from common moves, not being able to break super common defensive mons depending on the set, and is just overall outclassed by stuff like DeoA MMY MMX. Dawn Wings defensively is completely outclassed by Lunala because you run Teleport anyways and the bulk difference far outweighs the SpA increase. Dusk Mane is the most viable (and likely the only ranked) of the three but after using a team with it for reqs I can confirm it is pretty much useless. Out of the at least 20 games I played that team with there was like 1 or 2 games where it accomplished something. Its bulk is just too low when it gets 2HKOed by everything without or with like the smallest of chip and typing isn't great either. The games where it did something was against lower elo players as well. Only because I am lazy that I didn't replace it yet.
Thats only for defensive NDM btw, offensive is just a gimmick. Competent player sees setup NDM they don't try to check with Imposter when they know that this is the only niche NDM has over straight up better mons like Zac-C and Kartana. It also deals no damage so you are hopelessly walled by Zyg, forcing it to run GLance, + the move intended for Imposter leaves one STAB choice between Sunsteel or Photon, making you strongly consider your life choices and why you didn't just use Zac-C or MMX respectively.

Sometimes people may use Dusk-Mane with Zac-C or MMX, depending on the other 2's sets. It would depend on the entire team, not just 1 or the other. If MMX is a Scarf Libero set, then it's a great revenge killer, but having to switch out due to Choice lock can cause you to lose some momentum, so that's where a 2nd offensive option would come in.

Anyways, I don't think Dusk-Mane is ideal, I was just trying to consider how it could utilize its unique functionality with its Z-Crystal, since transforming Improofs it, and it still gets a powerful Z-Move. Establishing a Pokemon can 1HKO, and always outspeed its Imposter is impressive on its own, so coming up with a sample set was just to demonstrate it wouldn't even need +1 Atk (could just use ability) / +1 SpA to do so.
That's all.

 

[dtc09]

tfw you accidentally spark a big ass debate over a half meme set

 

[Champion Leon]

tfw you accidentally spark a big ass debate over a half meme set

Considering how many times I wrote “I agree” your point is kind of moot.

The set is acknowledged but the focus is on Z-Crystal in general.

If anything, his commentary on your set was just as long, correcting some issues that could benefit the set you posted, while suggesting a Z-Crystal for it.

Least I did spark a discussion so the thread would have activity.

Glad it worked, and discussion on Z-moves, Tera, etc. prevented the thread from being stale.

 

[anaconja]

leon you dont have to feel the need to revive the thread

have some announcements:

1. we have an initial vr now:

vr

S
Imposter
Zacian-Crowned
S-
Groudon-Primal
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Zygarde-Complete
A+
Gengar-Mega
A

Arceus-Fairy

Arceus-Ghost

Arceus-Water
Deoxys-Attack
Mewtwo-Mega-X
A-
Dialga-Origin
Xerneas
B+

Arceus-Dark
Diancie-Mega
Flutter Mane
Gyarados-Mega
Kyogre-Primal
Lunala
Miraidon
Regigigas
Swampert-Mega
B
Charizard-Mega-Y
Dondozo
Ho-Oh
Palkia-Origin
Slaking
Slowbro-Mega
B-
Arceus

Arceus-Fire

Arceus-Ground
Eternatus
Kartana
Ting-Lu
Xurkitree
Yveltal
C+

Arceus-Steel
Blaziken-Mega
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Steelix-Mega
Venusaur-Mega
Zamazenta-Crowned
C
Audino-Mega
Celesteela
Cresselia
Darmanitan-Zen
Garchomp-Mega
Giratina
Giratina-Origin

Kangaskhan (-Mega)
Kyurem-Black
Palkia
Rayquaza
Registeel
Snorlax
Solgaleo
Groudon
C-
Chansey
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Necrozma-Ultra
Palafin-Hero
Scizor-Mega
Zacian
Reshiram
D

Arceus-Poison
Doublade
Dragapult
Guzzlord
Melmetal
Metagross-Mega
Salamence-Mega
Tyranitar-Mega
Zekrom
Ferrothorn
Pheromosa
Regieleki

2. couple issues with the ladder, one big, one small. first, past-gen items are allowed when they shouldn't (most notably berserk gene), and second, the fact that the ladder is called "National Dex BH" instead of "National Dex Balanced Hackmons" seems to make the teambuilder not recognize that you can use max EVs (likely my fault as i called the thread bh and not balanced hackmons, fixed now). tagging Kris to implement these.

3. i'd like to welcome Chessking345 to the council as he is an active player and has contributed well to discussion and resources.

4. samples coming reeal soon

 

[TTTech]

Gonna submit 2 samples for NDBH.

#1
Team Name: SpAtk Rules
https://pokepast.es/c8aee5cf36dcfa59
Description: A balance team thats focused on using special attackers. The classic 2 attackers and everyone else supports them core allows you to overwhelm would be checks because you pressure with hazards and constant pivoting. Pretty easy team to use overall in my opinion.
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1757287485-ye8xi2ckzjh5w29sbt1cchrcid0gtlhpw (same team except ting lu was used instead of zygarde)

#2
Team Name: Beyond The Horizon
https://pokepast.es/af1d5afc16ee888f
Description: Team is centered around magic guard + salt cure stall. Being immune to entry hazards allows you more freedom to freely switch around while being able to pressure your opponent with your own hazards or court change theirs. Scout with imposter and go to the necessary check. Listen to music and relax while you play because you won't be doing too much thinking with this team.
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1756299887-1ogvr5xc8f6meq0whgeuehrnv2exlv2pw

I don't got much replays with these teams because I don't generally save any, but the teams work. Trust me UwU

 

[dtc09]

blacephalon isn't on the VR, my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined

also i'd maybe move palafin down to d-rank because let's be real even its issues with fc waters/zyg/pdon aside it's outclassed by base palkia which has lower attack but at least threatens fcs with special dragon STAB. additional dragon typing is also generally a boon defensive utility-wise (tanks pdon's hits better, zac scares fin out anyway). pogre also exists, hell even barra is better. and primsea zac is another good rend abuser that does other things too. overall i really don't see why palafin would earn a legitimate spot in teams.

finally, could someone explain poisonceus's niche to me? it really seems like a mon that only really checks fairies and takes up your arc slot, plus it anyway loses to stuff like ground z mdia and can't really damage zac

 

[izlore]

As far as past gen stuff being allowed, I can confirm that LGPE moves aren't allowed at least (I tried). I was wondering about the berserk gene, good to know I don't have to worry about geneburden sets gunning through teams

Edit: Saw it was just items and moves were never on the table, nevermind

 

[Tigerhawk7109]

I'd like to formally make complaints against two moves in National Dex BH: Fishious Rend and Population Bomb. Why is this? Well, I may be new to the metagame, but I have my reasons.

Fishious Rend: Simple reason. Bolt Beak is banned, so why isn't Fishious Rend? They accomplish the exact same thing, except Fishious Rend is actually more powerful due to Water's Type coverage being greater than Electric. This can also be broken when paired with a move like Victory Dance.

Population Bomb: Two words: Skill Link. With Skill Link and a Wide Lens, this move basically functions as a guaranteed KO. I may be wrong on the Skill Link count, (still relatively new to Pokemon,) but the fact remains that this move could be very broken.

But, then again, I suck at this format. What do I know?

 

[dtc09]

I'd like to formally make complaints against two moves in National Dex BH: Fishious Rend and Population Bomb. Why is this? Well, I may be new to the metagame, but I have my reasons.

Fishious Rend: Simple reason. Bolt Beak is banned, so why isn't Fishious Rend? They accomplish the exact same thing, except Fishious Rend is actually more powerful due to Water's Type coverage being greater than Electric. This can also be broken when paired with a move like Victory Dance.

Population Bomb: Two words: Skill Link. With Skill Link and a Wide Lens, this move basically functions as a guaranteed KO. I may be wrong on the Skill Link count, (still relatively new to Pokemon,) but the fact remains that this move could be very broken.

But, then again, I suck at this format. What do I know?

the thing is that bolt beak is a great coverage move that not only beats waters, the most common fur coaters, but that also pairs very nicely with other coverage, from glance for the infamous boltbeam to zac's torque, which is one confusion self-hit away from beating fc zygarde. tera just makes things worse. as for rend, not only it has more common resists and immunes (waters, pdon) but it doesn't synergize as well as beak for coverage and thus is more rarely seen.

meanwhile population bomb is a pretty situational move that can get ruined from many sources: one knock and you're too unreliable, you have to knock any potential helmets away before attacking, and the best pbomb user, zacian, generally can't fit coverage and thus has a bad matchup against pdon, some furcoaters and bulky resists. other pbomb users either have common immunities or are too slow to work, leaving it as a good move but not something that broken. ofc king's rock makes it the most annoying thing ever if your cloak gets knocked but that's not really good, just an skillless gimmick

 

[izlore]

.... ofc king's rock makes it the most annoying thing ever if your cloak gets knocked but that's not really good, just an skillless gimmick

This is why I'm pro King's Rock ban. Serene grace is already bad enough with dire claw and triple arrows. It's not broken necessarily, but it's just skilless and unfun, more or less the new imprison transform.

 

[dtc09]

This is why I'm pro King's Rock ban. Serene grace is already bad enough with dire claw and triple arrows. It's not broken necessarily, but it's just skilless and unfun, more or less the new imprison transform.

yep, already made a post about king's rock ban so hopefully the people up there are considering it. you could make a case for triple arrows too ig, as not every team can fit luna/ghostceus, but regardless it's just something that is a huge pain when laddering

 

[Geneku2]

When was Electrify banned in NDBH? Was is voted on by the council? If so, was I the reason?

 

[Champion Leon]

leon you dont have to feel the need to revive the thread

No one feels the need to do your job in keeping the thread discussion active. Only you.
It was cool to see that my post did revive it, however.

1. we have an initial vr now:

vr

S
Imposter
Zacian-Crowned
S-
Groudon-Primal
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Zygarde-Complete
A+
Gengar-Mega
A

Arceus-Fairy

Arceus-Ghost

Arceus-Water
Deoxys-Attack
Mewtwo-Mega-X
A-
Dialga-Origin
Xerneas
B+

Arceus-Dark
Diancie-Mega
Flutter Mane
Gyarados-Mega
Kyogre-Primal
Lunala
Miraidon
Regigigas
Swampert-Mega
B
Charizard-Mega-Y
Dondozo
Ho-Oh
Palkia-Origin
Slaking
Slowbro-Mega
B-
Arceus

Arceus-Fire

Arceus-Ground
Eternatus
Kartana
Ting-Lu
Xurkitree
Yveltal
C+

Arceus-Steel
Blaziken-Mega
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Steelix-Mega
Venusaur-Mega
Zamazenta-Crowned
C
Audino-Mega
Celesteela
Cresselia
Darmanitan-Zen
Garchomp-Mega
Giratina
Giratina-Origin

Kangaskhan (-Mega)
Kyurem-Black
Palkia
Rayquaza
Registeel
Snorlax
Solgaleo
Groudon
C-
Chansey
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Necrozma-Ultra
Palafin-Hero
Scizor-Mega
Zacian
Reshiram
D

Arceus-Poison
Doublade
Dragapult
Guzzlord
Melmetal
Metagross-Mega
Salamence-Mega
Tyranitar-Mega
Zekrom
Ferrothorn
Pheromosa
Regieleki

I feel like some of the Pokemon in D-rank could be moved to Unranked.

Pokemon like Salamence-Mega seem limited by their inability to Tera, and lack the Speed and Power that other Pokemon, even those ranked just a little higher, seem to have, such as Necrozma-Ultra.

Other niche Pokemon in the D-rank, like Zekrom, offer more power, improved bulk, better non-Dragon STAB, and feel like they overshadow Salamence-Mega in what you would select as a physical Dragon for a team.

With D-rank requiring some niche to separate them from whatever did not make the list, you can immediately see why most other D-ranked Pokemon are there, be it unique typing, or excellent stats in Speed. Salamence-Mega offers nothing particularly special in stats, type, or even a signature Ability or hold Item.

One Pokemon I would like to see added to the roster, in its place, would be Heracross-Mega.

With Triage serving its dual-STAB for priority Drain moves, it could easily take advantage of its typing to threaten out faster opponents, removing the need to set-up or rely on Choice Scarf.

Pokemon like MMY, and Regigigas come to mind as common threats that would have to contend with its offensive utility, especially as MMY cannot Tera into a different type, and Heracross-Mega can easily 1HKO.

252+ Atk Life Orb Heracross-Mega Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 484-569 (116.3 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross-Mega Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 390-462 (91.9 - 108.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Due to its tremendous 185 base Atk, it can also opt for flat Wallbreaker sets, taking advantage of STAB pivoting, and strong Fighting coverage options.

Of course, D-rank seems fitting since it has niche use, when compared to the speedier Kartana and MMX, which offer similar base Atk stats, but offer more versatility in their sets. Still, it does what Salamence-Mega does not, take full advantage of its typing, backed with near unrivaled base Atk power.

 

[anaconja]

few replies

yep, already made a post about king's rock ban so hopefully the people up there are considering it.

we are considering it

When was Electrify banned in NDBH? Was is voted on by the council? If so, was I the reason?

it was voted here

No one feels the need to do your job in keeping the thread discussion active. Only you.
It was cool to see that my post did revive it, however.

i have a lot of irl shit to do chill

samples have been updated (theyre on the third post). go check them out if you want.

some thoughts about the current meta: besides tera being a pain in the ass, it feels pretty stable. if/when tera clause happens, i could see the meta shifting back toward waterceus and clones because you cant tera water your zyg anymore to handle oripulse/vcreate libero mons.


the one thing i have kind of an issue with though is miraidon. this guy feels like the new gren-ash of the tier where if you dont have a hard check to it you just instantly lose, and its not as simple as throwing on a fc water/dragon/pdon like grenash because miraidon 2hkos or almost 2hkos a lot of scales mons anyway:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Arceus-Fairy in Electric Terrain: 194-228 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Swampert-Mega: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and yes you can use your scales dia-o (which is very difficult to improof without swapping pivoting for anchor) or just load a fairy + ground/imposter and rely on prediction (youre relying on prediction and probably lose longterm to the wish zyg + miraidon stuff ive been seeing on ladder).

there are some other options that are a bit more liberating, though mixed in their soundness:
+
Swampert-Mega @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful / Sassy Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Knock Off / Nuzzle
- Spectral Thief
- U-turn


zovrah reference (Steelix-Mega) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Precipice Blades
- Beak Blast / Spectral Thief
- Core Enforcer / Glacial Lance
- U-turn

this is alright. regenvest swampertmega is not the bulkiest (gets 2hkod by lumina mmy, specs ggarm, etc) but its a fairly good scouter. you can block voltage/vswitch and take 56 min from denergy but then you can swap to your fairy mon. this is a p similar idea to what i had with regenvest gyarados-mega + pdon against ashgren. steelixmega does the same thing but takes even less from denergy, can check zacc sometimes, and has lower speed for pivoting, at the cost of losing to more things like water/fire/ground coverage.


Earth Spirits (Arceus-Ground) @ Covert Cloak / Ability Shield
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Fairy / Dark / Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy / Careful Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Ice Beam / Spectral Thief
- Knock Off / Worry Seed
- Heal Order
scales groundceus is a hard counter that is not very easy to fit on the team because its arceus. its definitely pretty decent because with shield you probably check every special attacker in the game but its also clunky and forces you to forgo pivoting because its too fat to deal with as imposter. maybe you can do some ph stuff idk.


CHAMPION OF GAY (Arceus-Fairy) @ Terrain Extender / Covert Cloak
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Fire / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Tail Glow
- Glare
- Strength Sap


grassy ass (Zacian-Crowned) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Magical Torque
- V-create
- Heal Order
- Sucker Punch


Zamazenta-Crowned @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Misty Surge
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Salt Cure
- Heal Order

finally you have the esoteric terrain setters. gsurge fairy is an idea from city and its like kinda legit as a sillier ph that checks miraidon and heals your breakers a little. misty surge zzc i havent used but have seen on ladder. theoretically any misty surge mon not weak to electric works fine but personally dont think its very good because it basically only checks miraidon as most other dragons are niche.

in conclusion im undecided if miraidon is worth suspecting but its definitely an annoying mon to build against.

also a couple goofy sets because i ran out of things to comment on

Estradiol (Gardevoir-Mega) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light of Ruin
- Mind Blown
- Chloroblast
- Strength Sap / Pain Split
basically i was looking for mg mons because those seem antimeta against the current mortal spin / salt cure mons ppl are spamming. gardevoir has massive spa for light of ruins (2hkoing zygc even when its tera'd) and so takes advantage of passive mons really well. sap is the better option cause you can improof easily with eviolite imp but pain split might be better if you improof with something like hooh instead


wade wilson (Lugia) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lumina Crash
- Knock Off
- Psycho Shift
- Heal Order
252+ SpA Lugia Lumina Crash vs. -6 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Dialga-Origin: 70-83 (17.3 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO

 

[Tigerhawk7109]

Made a team with some of my favorite Pokemon, and I'd love some feedback on it! (Again, I'm pretty new to Pokemon, so all advice is welcome.)
https://pokepast.es/e029b23748d79104

 

[Runo]

1. we have an initial vr now:

I have some questions about the VR


Why are these mons ranked so low?

(Steel)
Why are these mons ranked at all?


Why are these ranked when and exist respectively?


Why is this ranked over ?

Other than those, the VR is pretty cool and I'm glad you're pushing out resources for this tier.

 

[dtc09]

I have some questions about the VR


Why are these mons ranked so low?

(Steel)
Why are these mons ranked at all?


Why are these ranked when and exist respectively?


Why is this ranked over ?

Other than those, the VR is pretty cool and I'm glad you're pushing out resources for this tier.

alr posted about yvel and think it should be a bit higher but regardless here's chessking's reply to my post. dusk mane could have much better bulk and its only real draw over solgaleo and zacc is the lower speed for pivoting. zamac has a very unfortunate typing, not resisting psychic nor fairy while still being weak to common physical coverage, meaning its effectiveness as a wall is pretty eh. gira and ferro meanwhile are passive as hell and invite too many stuff in for free, plus ferro's bulk is kinda meh tbh.

not sure about audi/lax but steelceus can be a decent fatmon if for whatever reason you can't afford scales dialga (for improofing for example) while zdarm has an alright typing for stuff like v-create and sunsteel/photon, while not every don carries ground STAB and you beat solar beam variants too. spdef can also work thanks to psy/fairy resist ig but a special wall that doesn't resists any of mirai's attacks means it's hard to build with it.

base palkia has higher base attack for rend and stuff, while gross is faster than the others which could be useful ig. while doublade has eviolite to be a decent physical wall if you have a v-create absorber.

also my team didn't get to samples, sad

 

[anaconja]

was gonna post but got sniped. ill add that:


giratina currently gets hit by everything. fairies, dragons, ghosts, darks, and ice coverage are all common in the tier meaning that theres very little reason to run giratina over zyg for essentially the fire resistance or lunala/ghostceus for the fighting resistance. this aint shed meta.


in addition to being horribly passive ferrothorn also has very lacking bulk.
theoretically it has the typing to check miraidon but in reality you get this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 198-233 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

theoretically you could check mmy with ground coverage instead of fighting coverage to hit zacc and diao but in reality you get this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Psychic Terrain: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mewtwo-Mega-Y Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 147-173 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Libero Mewtwo-Mega-Y Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 144-169 (40.9 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

it just doesnt realistically have a use case, youre better off running a different special wall.


audino has the one niche of being immune to spectral thief and core enforcer, making it a decent switchin to most walls using ph (the only set that isnt wrecked by imposter). its more of a gen7/gen8ndbh relic though as i cant imagine it doing too well against salt cure.


ph snorlax is a consistent ghost check that basically cant be cored because of how slow it is. because of that, it also has a niche similar to audino-mega with the added niche of switching into specs gengar (beware of tg secret sword) and not being passive due to its 110 atk facades. has the problem of having no resistances and also getting wrecked by mixed wallbreakers.


darmz has a niche in being a decent fire (resistances to fire, steel, fairy) while lacking the weakness to electric and neutrality to ice that hooh has, useful for checking libero/oripulse mmx and mmy lacking ground coverage. it also has like 0 atk so you can improof a strength sap user, and 0 spe so it can serve as a good slow pivot. its ranked low though due to its reliance on hdb (and therefore weakness to koff) and weaknesses to ground and ghost.


guzzlord is a relic of ashgren meta but has a slight niche in being able to improof something while using imposter. honestly idrk what it does youd have to ask chessking as he ranked it c-


both of these mons suck but doublade sucks less because it has useable atk and physical bulk. aegislash has ferrothorn problems but even worse because you cant trap imposter and you dont even have a mediocre atk. at least doublade has higher physbulk than giratina with eviolite so you could possibly do something there

 

[Chessking345]

I've seen some arguments in the suspect thread for DNBs on how Tera doesn't feel strong enough to warrant a ban and wanted to address it.
The main issue with these arguments is that while Tera isn't generally strong/overwhelming enough on most mons (obvious exceptions to this), in general it is uncompetitive by reversing matchups or causing matchup fishing.

Take this replay for example, from yesterday's room tour.
We see an interaction where forsenBussin's Zacian-C is trapped by anaconja's Zygarde-C. Without Tera, the Zacian-C easily forces all recovers out of Zyg-C with Magical Torque while fishing for crits. Yes the Zacian-C probably still loses (anaconja knew that the Zacian-C was not Fairy-tera) but it has the chance to win or at least cripple the Zyg-C for its teammates. In the case that the Zacian-C had slightly more damage output it would've won (I'm pretty sure the Zac-C was Adamant Own Tempo or something else to block confusion, but something like Sword of Ruin Jolly would be sufficient).
However, this is a meta with Tera, and after realizing that Zyg-C is the only way out against the Zac, anaconja clicks Tera Water, easily lives the hits, and finishes the Zac-C off, making something that would've otherwise probably lost win.
Now what if the Zac-C was Fairy-Tera? If anaconja Teras the Zyg immediately (whether he knew it was Fairy-Tera or he realized immediately he has no other check), the Zyg-C still wins. Only if the Zyg-C was teraed after the Zac-C does the Zac-C win by using the extra damage boost from Tera. But this reinforces the point that Tera is forcing over-bulking stuff because here if the Tera type was unknown, anaconja would have to play with Tera Fairy Magical Torque damage in mind. Using Tera to check Tera can be considered a broken checks broken here.

Consider another hypothetical situation that has absolutely been seen before. Your opponent switched in Poison Heal Arceus-Fairy on your slow pivot, you now have the option of bringing in your Choice Band Zacian-C with Sunsteel Strike that cleanly OHKOs the Arceus. Without Tera, this is the correct play, you played your slow pivot well and now you get to bring in your strong breaker to force the opponent out. However, with Tera, this becomes completely different. You know from your experience that the Fairyceus is most likely Magma Storm with Fire Tera. Now, if you bring in Zacian-C, the following interaction happens:
Zacian-C clicks Sunsteel Strike, Fairyceus doesn't Tera, Fairyceus dies.
Zacian-C clicks Sunsteel Strike, Fairyceus Teras and clicks Magma Storm (assume it hits), Zacian-C gets trapped and dies.
Zacian-C clicks Headlong Rush, Fairyceus doesn't Tera, Zacian-C gets trapped and dies.
Zacian-C clicks Headlong Rush, Fairyceus Teras, Fairyceus dies.
Thus an originally winning position for you created by your good play now becomes a complete 50/50 if both sides stay in. Thus, it is actually the wrong play to bring in the Zacian-C in here, and instead you should've passively switched in your Ice Scales Dialga-O even though you could've gotten momentum. This is like the most standard example of how Tera forces passive play, because players don't want to risk anything until Tera is used. Both players will play constantly the safest unless they want to deal with the 50/50s.

Consider a last hypothetical situation. Your check to PH Regigigas is FC Zygarde with Thousand Waves, Core Enforcer, Volt Switch, Heal Order. Under normal circumstances you just switch in, take no damage from boosted Facade, and threaten to trap, Core, and then stall out using Heal Order regardless of how much they boosted. However, they reveal Fairy Tera on Regigigas, and now your check is walled and you just lost.
This can also apply even if you had both Spectral and Core Enforcer on your check, because they generated a free turn using the Fairy Tera and can now fire another free hit on your Spectral turn, and since a lot of walls run minspeed, they outspeed even after Spectral boosts and hit you a 3rd time, potentially koing.

While I can understand the arguments for a ban I don't think the points made are strong enough to constitute banning the mechanic rather than problematic abusers.

You are only addressing the ban point of "Tera makes certain mons too powerful" when "Tera is uncompetitive" is another strong point. Indeed, Tera makes Pokemon like Zygarde-C and potentially Zacian-C and Deoxys-A super strong, but considering that the pool of mons NDBH uses hasn't really changed from G8 to G9, we know that in a meta without Tera that Zygarde-C is balanced and that in a meta without Tera that Deoxys-A is balanced. In fact, Zyg-C's presence without Tera is arguably healthy for the meta by providing a splashable check to PDon, a splashable Electric immunity for Hadron users, and a versatile wall for either physical, special, or setup threats. You would rather ban the individual mons that are balanced if the mechanic was removed than ban the mechanic that is breaking these mons?
Not to mention how if we banned the problematic abusers then we would simply see the dominant usage of Tera on mons like the aforementioned Arceus-Fairy to cause more of the uncompetitive Tera uses rather than the potentially arguably interesting use of Tera to patch up defensive holes (Mostly seen on Zyg due to outclassing other options and also having traits that would-be alternatives like Giratina don't have). In addition, if mons like Zyg-C and Zac-C get banned due to being problematic tera abusers, then we will either see mons like MMY and MMX reclaim their positions while being non-Tera mons, notably meaning that Tera is much less impactful than before, or we see new Tera-able mons (Deoxys-A, Flutter Mane, Miraidon, Giratina, Arceus Formes) be abused due to the lower power level and we end up with the same scenario. Would you then call them problematic abusers and suggest a ban again? At what point do you consider if the mon is too strong or the mechanic is breaking the mon?

Definitely DNB Tera does not feel overwhelming at all

I suggest you take a look at Zygarde-C's defensive potential with Tera, and offensive threats like Zacian-C or Deoxys-A's damage output with Tera, or stuff like Poison Heal Arceus-Fairy's both defensive and offensive potential with Tera.

I have some questions about the VR


Why are these mons ranked so low?

(Steel)
Why are these mons ranked at all?


Why are these ranked when and exist respectively?


Why is this ranked over ?

People already replied so I'll just go over a few.
As of right now I really don't find appealing to fit on teams. Its weaknesses are just too notable in the meta and it doesn't bring enough as a special wall. Even Darkceus I haven't really found myself using because stuff like MGar have kind of fell while you can still soft check those with Zyg-C or Dialga-O. Offensive sets suffer from Zac-C's prevalence.
I have actually used a lot throughout the suspect run (I used the Libero Deo-A team), and I have to say that NDM was basically useless for every game, granted I used a questionable set. It simply doesn't have the bulk nor the typing to be competitive in the meta. A previous niche of having a surprise burst of damage through Ultra Bursting and gaining STAB Core Enforcer is also much less notable when it kills your Tera ability.
provides a solid Steel-type wall that provides less strength sap recovery than stuff like Zac-C and Solg while having potential offensive power through Doom Desire.
has the very tiny niche of being a wall switch-in to grab momentum, though this niche is very heavily contested by something like Shed Shell Imposter.
is a very niche Imposter user that has a useful typing to improof stuff. Notable resistances to Psychic, Electric, Fire, Water, and Ghost let it improof stuff like Mega Gengar variants, Deoxys-A variants, MMY variants, etc. I think I probably overranked it though oops.
provides a stronger Fishious Rend but its mostly theory since idk if anyone has built a team around it.
has a nice 110 speed tier that lets it outspeed neutral Arceus and all Kartana formes, while speed tying Diancie. This gives it a small niche if your team is Kartana weak or something?
and are both bad but Doublade is less imposter weak (can use strong special moves to pressure and less overall bulk), and specializes in one defensive stat to actually accomplish stuff on that spectrum rather than Aegislash getting 2HKOed by everything

 

[izlore]

On the topic of Tera, having played more and more, I've noticed that Tera does have the really annoying habit of forcing really passive play to avoid the potential of getting trapped and removed. Now I personally hate trapping and would rather see it removed if I had the choice, but that's more subjective, and tera makes it so much more powerful.

That forced passivity is really unfun, and snuffs out offense as a viable playstyle, so I'm probably gonna flip my vote based on that.

All hail the megas.

 

[dtc09]

i honestly feel like many of the anti-tera ban people are influenced by the low quality of ladder. the disparity between ladder and good players is really big, which reduces many suspect matches to bullying low ladder that uses stuff like outrage throh. some people say tera isn't that impactful but a good deoa/mirai player can very well get a kill every time it comes in or even outright sweep, while a good use of tera easily flips matchups, as others said. also zygarde. however low to mid ladder tends to not use it or slot in a good abuser, which makes the mechanic seem less dangerous. just a thought.