anchor shot’s and spirit shackle’s trapping are counted as secondary effects while twaves’s trapping isnt, more of a gamefreak oversight since twaves is gen6 and the others are gen7
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I also think that Zyg is something to look at, but I think dynamic between trapping and terastallization that lets the trapping pokemon wall the trapped pokemon, even if the trapped mon would normally be a check to the trapping mon is a bigger problem.
Without trapping, zacian can just switch out, and the game continues, and in theory forsenBussin could beat the zyg in other ways, but thousand waves means that Zac has to sit there and die. Getting a piece lost for only some recovery pp. Trapping on its own isn't necessarily an issue, but the interaction between trapping and tera leads to the incredibly passive, uninteresting gameplay that was mentioned in the Tera suspect.
I can understand not banning all trapping mechanics, not banning infestation, fire spin, magma storm and similar effects is fair, and perhaps even anchor shot, since anchor shot can be block by covert cloak. But Thousand Waves doesn't really have counterplay other than "be ghost or flying type" which come with their own large sets of restrictions. So I'd at least argue for the ban on thousand waves, because you at least get warning that someone's attempting to trap you if they knock your covert cloak, and cloak is already a really splashable item due to nuzzle, mortal spin, salt cure and flinch attempts.
chessking345 said:
Without trapping, zacian can just switch out, and the game continues, and in theory forsenBussin could beat the zyg in other ways, but thousand waves means that Zac has to sit there and die. Getting a piece lost for only some recovery pp. Trapping on its own isn't necessarily an issue, but the interaction between trapping and tera leads to the incredibly passive, uninteresting gameplay that was mentioned in the Tera suspect.
I can understand not banning all trapping mechanics, not banning infestation, fire spin, magma storm and similar effects is fair, and perhaps even anchor shot, since anchor shot can be block by covert cloak. But Thousand Waves doesn't really have counterplay other than "be ghost or flying type" which come with their own large sets of restrictions. So I'd at least argue for the ban on thousand waves, because you at least get warning that someone's attempting to trap you if they knock your covert cloak, and cloak is already a really splashable item due to nuzzle, mortal spin, salt cure and flinch attempts.
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while it's true that trapping is one of zygc's most annoying parts, it's not the only way it's broken. zygarde's always been a mon that has forced many mons to slot in ice moves for a reason: mere 2x SE moves aren't enough to really damage it heavily. we're talking about a mon that tanks band SoR zacc's torque with fur coat very comfortably, avoiding the 2HKO from it. however, get rid of that quad weakness to gain a much better typing like water or fairy and now you can very well be completely unkillable. zacc? prot bolt strike does 40 at best to fc water zyg. mmy? specs psysurge eforce can't 2HKO regenvest zyg and there's no ice beam to help you anymore. miraidon's specially weak to surprise tera, and mmx? don't ever think about it, teching lo electro drift to bypass tera water still leaves you stalled out by water prank and beaten by tera fairy regenvest. and i only mentioned 2 typings, there's still room to stuff like tera ghost/fire for physical walling and tera steel or even ground for special.
so yeah, there's no need to ban twaves because the only real abuser of it is stupidly broken anyway, other forms of trapping are still arguable though because offensive mons are the ones that hate them the most and they often can't afford cloak.
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My idea to ban trapping was more of an idea to look for a consolation prize to not being able to ban tera, since Zyg isn't the only mon able to abuse trapping. Twaves specifically just doesn't have counterplay. I also agree with the Zygarde sentiment. As nice as it is to glue teams together, it's just too good. It can, as you explained, do too many things. It has too many niches, and too many ways to counter its checks.
couple things
first Tea Guzzler has retired from council, we thank him for his contributions
second, zygarde-complete is now banned
tagging Kris to implement
with tera staying unbanned we had to look at the most prolific abuser of tera. zygarde-complete is the most used pokemon right now (beating zacian-c, mmy, chansey, etc) and for good reason - with tera it becomes the most splashable and bulky mon in the game. the majority of wallbreakers must consider ice coverage only because of this mon, and even then inbattle it can just remove that coverage instantly and trap and eliminate said breaker. while a majority of walls can already exploit this interaction, we felt that zyg-c was the most egregious abuser, and thus it was banned.
king's rock is a much more unseen item, having fringe use in low ladder. while it has uncompetitive potential, we could not analyze it very well due to how little it shows up in battle (and personally, i play a loot of ndbh). for now it will stay unbanned.
this is a pretty huge change. with the absence of a good 216/121/95 bulk mon and the best fire resist in a meta with pdon and oripulse, what meta shift will we see? there is a lot to discuss
first Tea Guzzler has retired from council, we thank him for his contributions
| anaconja | chessking345 | lazzerpenguin | tttech | result | |
| zygarde-complete | ban | ban | abstain | ban | ban |
| king's rock | abstain | dnb | dnb | ban | dnb |
with tera staying unbanned we had to look at the most prolific abuser of tera. zygarde-complete is the most used pokemon right now (beating zacian-c, mmy, chansey, etc) and for good reason - with tera it becomes the most splashable and bulky mon in the game. the majority of wallbreakers must consider ice coverage only because of this mon, and even then inbattle it can just remove that coverage instantly and trap and eliminate said breaker. while a majority of walls can already exploit this interaction, we felt that zyg-c was the most egregious abuser, and thus it was banned. king's rock is a much more unseen item, having fringe use in low ladder. while it has uncompetitive potential, we could not analyze it very well due to how little it shows up in battle (and personally, i play a loot of ndbh). for now it will stay unbanned.this is a pretty huge change. with the absence of a good 216/121/95 bulk mon and the best fire resist in a meta with pdon and oripulse, what meta shift will we see? there is a lot to discuss
Guess that means All current sample teams have to be replaced, just a week after being selected.
The VR as well will need an overhaul, depending on how much this 1 ban impacts everything else.
Next, in going through the next best walls for Fire-type coverage, we have Giratina, which has a way lower HP of just 150, but good balanced 120 Def and SpD. With it not having a 2x weakness, and it being a Ghost-type (able to escape traps), Tera feels more like a nice benefit, and not a reliance.
It also has a nice STAB in Spectral, and Core Enforcer, so even if it Teras, it packs a nice punch to utility moves, and of course, being able to hold its signature item means Knock-Offs and Trick item removable immunity provides it a rare utility for teams, and survival.
Giratina and Zygarde were always strong walls, now its Giratina's time to shine, especially since it can tank Fighting-type moves like haxy Triple Arrows from MMX.
It also serves as a nice alternative to Lunala, since it can pack Fur Coat, in addition to taking on the role of Prankster from Zygarde-C.
Giratina also has a nice Final Gambit immunity, which is a niche bonus.
Here is my updated Sample team:
Relevant Damage Calcs:
Problematic Matchups:
Having 2 Water types attracts common Electric, and Grass coverage moves on Pokémon like Flower Trick Sniper Gyarados-Mega, and Solar Beam Groudon-P to threaten Tapu-Fini and Gyarados-Mega especially since they bypass the +Def boosts of Victory Dance.
Libero MMX can cause problems due to its strong coverage now getting STAB, and backed by a Choice band, where it’s Fighting coverage immediately forces out Dialga, Ferrothorn and Gyarados-Mega (pre-setup).
Tera Ground Groudon-P with Precipice Blades / Headlong Rush can threaten average bulk Pokémon like Tapu-Fini, and Ferrothorn.
Normalize is blocked by Magic Bounce Gyarados-Mega, while Specs Gengar-Mega is a threat easily worn down by Giratina's Prankster Parting Shot, but can still pose a threat if Prankster Giratina is gone.
Sample Battle:
Vs forsenBussin
The VR as well will need an overhaul, depending on how much this 1 ban impacts everything else.
Next, in going through the next best walls for Fire-type coverage, we have Giratina, which has a way lower HP of just 150, but good balanced 120 Def and SpD. With it not having a 2x weakness, and it being a Ghost-type (able to escape traps), Tera feels more like a nice benefit, and not a reliance.
It also has a nice STAB in Spectral, and Core Enforcer, so even if it Teras, it packs a nice punch to utility moves, and of course, being able to hold its signature item means Knock-Offs and Trick item removable immunity provides it a rare utility for teams, and survival.
Giratina and Zygarde were always strong walls, now its Giratina's time to shine, especially since it can tank Fighting-type moves like haxy Triple Arrows from MMX.
It also serves as a nice alternative to Lunala, since it can pack Fur Coat, in addition to taking on the role of Prankster from Zygarde-C.
Giratina also has a nice Final Gambit immunity, which is a niche bonus.
Here is my updated Sample team:
Ultimately, I scout and stall with Tapu-Fini to tank Knock offs, Status, Dragon-moves, and fish for Baneful Bunker poison (including vs Electric Drift), then I Parting Shot to safely pivot in my allies. Once I weaken their lead, I send in RegenVest Dialga to rack up entry Hazards, before pivoting to Gyarados-Mega to gain control and start either setting-up or Knocking Off.
Dialga can Tera into a Flying-type to handle Ground and Fighting-types now, without losing its resistances to Grass and immunity to Toxic Spikes. It also makes a nice healing core with Tapu-Fini healing off its slow pivots, while it also heals itself. If not using Tera, Fighting moves are easily tanked by by Giratina and Tapu-Fini, proving even after Tera, while Electric-type moves are resisted by Ferrothorn, and negated by Groudon-Primal, proving he Defensive core actually runs across the team.
Gyarados-Mega is highly efficient to set-up thanks to its Magic Bounce and Covert Cloak allowing it to easily disable common counter-measures, like Normalize, while supporting the team with Knock Off. Easily Improofed via most of my team, I am able to even force it out through Prankster Parting Shot Giratina, as Magic Bounce triggers before Dark-typing is considered, allowing a predictive switch Giratina to force it out before it can act, and ensuring the turn continues to rack up entry hazards.
Groudon-P, especially with Dauntless Shield, can also easily come in on Imposter Gyarados-M, and block Fishous Rend, take reduced damage from Knock off, and force Imposter out via Mortal Spin + Solar Beam stall. Mortal Spinning Imposter, even against Groudon-P imposter, also works well since they will be forced out.
Groudon-P is easily improofed by Well-Baked Body Ferrothorn, which allows it to come in, block Mortal Spin, get a Defense +2 boost from Bitter Blade, and not notice Solar Beam. This allows me to easily Anchor Shot the next Pokemon with now double Defense, which does turn games around if they had a strong Physical Wall Breaker that cannot bypass the now +2 Def.
Ferrothorn can Tera into a Normal-type to fend of Spectral Thiefs, and outstall Normalize Ghosts that bypassed Gyarados-Mega. It can also soft-check Imposter Scarf Gyarados-Mega due to Spectral Thief, just ensure you come in safely.
Lastly, Groudon-P's Bitter Blade also helps its longevity tremendously, and it can of course Tera into a Fire-type (until fixed) to better dish out Fire damage, as well as resist Grass, and Ice moves.
Dialga can Tera into a Flying-type to handle Ground and Fighting-types now, without losing its resistances to Grass and immunity to Toxic Spikes. It also makes a nice healing core with Tapu-Fini healing off its slow pivots, while it also heals itself. If not using Tera, Fighting moves are easily tanked by by Giratina and Tapu-Fini, proving even after Tera, while Electric-type moves are resisted by Ferrothorn, and negated by Groudon-Primal, proving he Defensive core actually runs across the team.
Gyarados-Mega is highly efficient to set-up thanks to its Magic Bounce and Covert Cloak allowing it to easily disable common counter-measures, like Normalize, while supporting the team with Knock Off. Easily Improofed via most of my team, I am able to even force it out through Prankster Parting Shot Giratina, as Magic Bounce triggers before Dark-typing is considered, allowing a predictive switch Giratina to force it out before it can act, and ensuring the turn continues to rack up entry hazards.
Groudon-P, especially with Dauntless Shield, can also easily come in on Imposter Gyarados-M, and block Fishous Rend, take reduced damage from Knock off, and force Imposter out via Mortal Spin + Solar Beam stall. Mortal Spinning Imposter, even against Groudon-P imposter, also works well since they will be forced out.
Groudon-P is easily improofed by Well-Baked Body Ferrothorn, which allows it to come in, block Mortal Spin, get a Defense +2 boost from Bitter Blade, and not notice Solar Beam. This allows me to easily Anchor Shot the next Pokemon with now double Defense, which does turn games around if they had a strong Physical Wall Breaker that cannot bypass the now +2 Def.
Ferrothorn can Tera into a Normal-type to fend of Spectral Thiefs, and outstall Normalize Ghosts that bypassed Gyarados-Mega. It can also soft-check Imposter Scarf Gyarados-Mega due to Spectral Thief, just ensure you come in safely.
Lastly, Groudon-P's Bitter Blade also helps its longevity tremendously, and it can of course Tera into a Fire-type (until fixed) to better dish out Fire damage, as well as resist Grass, and Ice moves.
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 373-441 (89.6 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 300-354 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 344-408 (68.2 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 331-390 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 340-402 (87.6 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 300-354 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 344-408 (68.2 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 331-390 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 340-402 (87.6 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Obviously Ferrothorn is ideal, but I think the best teams have a Plan B.
Plan B: Check-
Tapu-Fini, can come in on anything besides Solar Beam, can then take 1 Solar Beam, Core Enforcer to remove the Sun and threaten with Scald since it doesn’t fear Mortal Spin or Bitter Blade. It can also Baneful Bunker if Imposter tries to Clear hazards with Mortal Spin on the turn you would normally use Core Enforcer.
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tapu Fini: 192-228 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
Plan B: Check-
Tapu-Fini, can come in on anything besides Solar Beam, can then take 1 Solar Beam, Core Enforcer to remove the Sun and threaten with Scald since it doesn’t fear Mortal Spin or Bitter Blade. It can also Baneful Bunker if Imposter tries to Clear hazards with Mortal Spin on the turn you would normally use Core Enforcer.
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tapu Fini: 192-228 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
Plan B: At +1 Atk
Say you switch out Gyarados-M as Imposter goes for Victory Dance:
Ferrothorn:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It can Spectral Thief the boost, which means that next turn Ferrothorn is +1 Def, and Gyarados-M is no longer powered up.
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 69-81 (19.6 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tapu-Fini:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 155-183 (45 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
Tapu-Fini forces it out via Parting Shot thanks to Magic Bounce. (Unless it’s Scarfed, you don’t want to Baneful Bunker in case they just do Victory Dance, and hit harder).
Plan C: At +1 Atk
For Scarf Imposter Gyarados-Mega only, it can come in, Spectral, and switch to a better target. This is for allowing an injured ally to finish off Imposter since Imposter lost its boosts.
Dialga:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 73-87 (18 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Say you switch out Gyarados-M as Imposter goes for Victory Dance:
Ferrothorn:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It can Spectral Thief the boost, which means that next turn Ferrothorn is +1 Def, and Gyarados-M is no longer powered up.
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 69-81 (19.6 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tapu-Fini:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 155-183 (45 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
Tapu-Fini forces it out via Parting Shot thanks to Magic Bounce. (Unless it’s Scarfed, you don’t want to Baneful Bunker in case they just do Victory Dance, and hit harder).
Plan C: At +1 Atk
For Scarf Imposter Gyarados-Mega only, it can come in, Spectral, and switch to a better target. This is for allowing an injured ally to finish off Imposter since Imposter lost its boosts.
Dialga:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 73-87 (18 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Having 2 Water types attracts common Electric, and Grass coverage moves on Pokémon like Flower Trick Sniper Gyarados-Mega, and Solar Beam Groudon-P to threaten Tapu-Fini and Gyarados-Mega especially since they bypass the +Def boosts of Victory Dance.
Libero MMX can cause problems due to its strong coverage now getting STAB, and backed by a Choice band, where it’s Fighting coverage immediately forces out Dialga, Ferrothorn and Gyarados-Mega (pre-setup).
Tera Ground Groudon-P with Precipice Blades / Headlong Rush can threaten average bulk Pokémon like Tapu-Fini, and Ferrothorn.
Normalize is blocked by Magic Bounce Gyarados-Mega, while Specs Gengar-Mega is a threat easily worn down by Giratina's Prankster Parting Shot, but can still pose a threat if Prankster Giratina is gone.
Sample Battle:
Vs forsenBussin
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Guess that means All current sample teams have to be replaced, just a week after being selected.
The VR as well will need an overhaul, depending on how much this 1 ban impacts everything else.
Next, in going through the next best walls for Fire-type coverage, we have Giratina, which has a way lower HP of just 150, but good balanced 120 Def and SpD. With it not having a 2x weakness, and it being a Ghost-type (able to escape traps), Tera feels more like a nice benefit, and not a reliance.
It also has a nice STAB in Spectral, and Core Enforcer, so even if it Teras, it packs a nice punch to utility moves, and of course, being able to hold its signature item means Knock-Offs and Trick item removable immunity provides it a rare utility for teams, and survival.
Giratina and Zygarde were always strong walls, now its Giratina's time to shine, especially since it can tank Fighting-type moves like haxy Triple Arrows from MMX.
It also serves as a nice alternative to Lunala, since it can pack Fur Coat, in addition to taking on the role of Prankster from Zygarde-C.
Here is my updated Sample team:
Relevant Damage Calcs:Ultimately, I scout and stall with Tapu-Fini to tank Knock offs, Status, Dragon-moves, and fish for Baneful Bunker poison (including vs Electric Drift), then I Parting Shot to safely pivot in my allies. Once I weaken their lead, I send in RegenVest Dialga to rack up entry Hazards, before pivoting to Gyarados-Mega to gain control and start either setting-up or Knocking Off.
Dialga can Tera into a Steel-type to handle Dragons and Fairies now, without losing its resistances to Steel and immunity to Poison. It also makes a nice healing core with Tapu-Fini healing off its slow pivots, while it also heals itself. Fire moves are easily tanked by the rest of my team, while Fighting moves are laughed at by Tapu-Fini, proving even after Tera, the Defensive core actually runs across the team.
Gyarados-Mega is highly efficient to set-up thanks to its Magic Bounce and Covert Cloak allowing it to easily disable common counter-measures, like Normalize, while supporting the team with Knock Off. Easily Improofed via most of my team, I am able to even force it out through Prankster Parting Shot Giratina, as Magic Bounce triggers before Dark-typing is considered, allowing a predictive switch Giratina to force it out before it can act, and ensuring the turn continues to rack up entry hazards.
Groudon-P, especially with Dauntless Shield, can also easily come in on Imposter Gyarados-M, and block Fishous Rend, take reduced damage from Knock off, and force Imposter out via Mortal Spin + Solar Beam stall. Mortal Spinning Imposter, even against Groudon-P imposter, also works well since they will be forced out.
Groudon-P is easily improofed by Well-Baked Body Ferrothorn, which allows it to come in, block Mortal Spin, get a Defense +2 boost from Bitter Blade, and not notice Solar Beam. This allows me to easily Anchor Shot the next Pokemon with now double Defense, which does turn games around if they had a strong Physical Wall Breaker that cannot bypass the now +2 Def.
Ferrothorn can Tera into a Normal-type to fend of Spectral Thiefs, and outstall Normalize Ghosts that bypassed Gyarados-Mega. It can also soft-check Imposter Scarf Gyarados-Mega due to Spectral Thief, just ensure you come in safely.
Lastly, Groudon-P's Bitter Blade also helps its longevity tremendously, and it can of course Tera into a Fire-type (until fixed) to better dish out Fire damage, as well as resist Grass, and Ice moves.
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 373-441 (89.6 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Dondozo: 300-354 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 344-408 (68.2 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 331-390 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zacian-Crowned: 340-402 (87.6 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 328-387 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKOProblematic Matchups:Obviously Ferrothorn is ideal, but I think the best teams have a Plan B.
Plan B: Check-
Tapu-Fini, can come in on anything besides Solar Beam, can then take 1 Solar Beam, Core Enforcer to remove the Sun and threaten with Scald since it doesn’t fear Mortal Spin or Bitter Blade. It can also Baneful Bunker if Imposter tries to Clear hazards with Mortal Spin on the turn you would normally use Core Enforcer.
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tapu Fini: 192-228 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison HealPlan B: At +1 Atk
Say you switch out Gyarados-M as Imposter goes for Victory Dance:
Ferrothorn:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It can Spectral Thief the boost, which means that next turn Ferrothorn is +1 Def, and Gyarados-M is no longer powered up.
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 69-81 (19.6 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tapu-Fini:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 155-183 (45 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
Tapu-Fini forces it out via Parting Shot thanks to Magic Bounce. (Unless it’s Scarfed, you don’t want to Baneful Bunker in case they just do Victory Dance, and hit harder).
Plan C: At +1 Atk
For Scarf Imposter Gyarados-Mega only, it can come in, Spectral, and switch to a better target. This is for allowing an injured ally to finish off Imposter since Imposter lost its boosts.
Dialga:
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 165-195 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga-Origin: 73-87 (18 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO
Having 2 Water types attracts common Electric, and Grass coverage moves on Pokémon like Flower Trick Sniper Gyarados-Mega, and Solar Beam Groudon-P to threaten Tapu-Fini and Gyarados-Mega especially since they bypass the +Def boosts of Victory Dance.
Libero MMX can cause problems due to its strong coverage now getting STAB, and backed by a Choice band, where it’s Ice Coverage can punish Zygarde-C, while it’s Fighting coverage immediately forces out Dialga, Ferrothorn and Gyarados-Mega (pre-setup).
Tera Ground Groudon-P with Precipice Blades / Headlong Rush can threaten average bulk Pokémon like Tapu-Fini, and Ferrothorn.
Normalize is blocked by Gyarados-Mega, but otherwise, it can be a threat.
uhh leon the team works good but doesn't specs mgar rlly dent it bad? Dialga-o doesn't eat 2 a-barrages and cant ohko it back (252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 223-264 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) it if it has its evs set and the switch to gyarados won't help too much because gyarados cant heal up since imp will also get magic bounce? I'd prolly change gyarados to heal order as mgar is a top tier wallbreaker atm
also as to an interesting set i found this while experimenting on the ladder:
Regigigas @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Shift Gear
- V-create
- Spectral Thief
insanity. with wish support this is a good wallbreaker, did a frickin 80 to fully defensive fc arc water at only +1, without a way to find an opening and using this set its rlly not too easy to kill and with wish support. Can be rlly useful ig
Regigigas @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Shift Gear
- V-create
- Spectral Thief
insanity. with wish support this is a good wallbreaker, did a frickin 80 to fully defensive fc arc water at only +1, without a way to find an opening and using this set its rlly not too easy to kill and with wish support. Can be rlly useful ig
Regigigas @ Dark / Ghost Memory
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Normal / Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishous Rend
- Shift Gear
- Strength Sap / Spectral Thief
- Multi-Attack
Another option may be Normalize Fishous Rend where 1.2 x 170 = 204 + STAB = 306 base power
Guts Flame Orb Facade is 1.5 x 2 x 70 = 210 + STAB = 315 base power
The advantage here, is you free up a move slot for either healing with Strength Sap, or gain STAB on Spectral Thief and now steal boosts off Normal-types (useful since some set-up Pokémon will Tera into Normal to avoid being Spectral’d).
You also don’t take 6.25% damage per turn.
You could even opt for Ghost Tera and become Imposterproof, with a Normal Spectral Thief literally stealing Imposter’s boosts as you become Immune via Ghost-type.
Multi-Attack would then be Ghost Memory for 180 Base power after STAB, which is stronger than Guts Spectral Thief.
If you opt for Tera Normal to boost Normal-type Spectral and Fishous Rend, then Dark Memory makes more sense for Multi-Attack, since Dark-type moves hit all types, while Ghost-type Multi-Attack will not hit Normal-types.
Your set is nice Bc it has Status immunity, has a stronger hitting Ghost coverage move (if both Tera into Normal), and doesn’t fear Knock Off / Trick.
Just posting an alternative.
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This set is not the best way to use normalize Regigigas.
There are two ways to try and use NormGigas
First, using an all out offensive set that doesn't try to beat ghosts
Regigigas @ Choice Band
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- V-create
- Toxic
- Parting Shot / Pursuit
This is an old set from gen 7, i didn't bother making a new one because i don't believe you should be using normalize gigas exclusively on offense since population bomb MGLO will always just do better. However, this set uses choice band over multi attack because you aren't going to break fat ghosts anyway.
Now, here's the way I believe NormGigas should be used:
Regigigas @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Entrainment
- Fishious Rend
- Multi-Attack
- Tidy Up
This use of the set allows Gigas to tera in order to become unbelievably hard to stop, since fishious rend massively threatens common RevDancers and other Normalize counterplay. The set obviously struggles with Ashield, Prankglare etc... but using tera ghost Normgigas and not even thinking about entrainment seems silly to me, so I'm posting to point that out.
I don’t know about your first set. I think Trick could go over the 3rd or 4th slot.
To me, it just feels too slow, when you could just use Kartana or Zacian-C with Gigaton Hammer / Sunsteel Strike and Steelworker.
Extreme Speed is nice, but I think Choice Band works best on a Pokémon that is simply faster.
————
On the second set, I see how Normalize can benefit from Entrainment, but I think my set was focusing on it being optional to be Tera Normal instead.
With your set, I like Tidy Up, but Shift Gear is more reliable against Scarf, and Sticky Web to secure being fast enough to get max base power from Fishous Rend.
The goal is power, being able to heal, or having a STAB Normal-type Spectral Thief to hit new targets (like Imposter).
I would, again, rather use a faster Ghost and then Tera into Ghost, for max power when it comes to Entrainment.
Having to rely on using Tera Ghost to make it even benefit from Entrainment is another drawback. You basically have to Tera on Regi for that set to maximize its benefits.
On Cta and my set, Tera a nice bonus, but not a requirement.
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thats a rlly good set with v-create being more reliable and the cb threat really helping but honestly, this easily takes the cake for me:
Regigigas @ Ground Memory
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Fishious Rend
- Strength Sap
- Shift Gear
I dont use it much because fc lunala usage has risen but the thing about this set that appeals to me is that you dont have to worry too much, you can setup on a weakened foe as much as you want because you know the opponent's imp cant lay a finger on you once you tera. Not just that it catches zacians pretty well. To top it off it has good damage output and is a constant threat that isn't easy to dispel without prankster haze that isn't considered a force on teams lately. Over here i honestly dont care about ghosts because they're not as cracked up as presented against the right team. The set is also quite splashable so you can use it on pretty much any team. Even works for the current meta since losing zygarde frees up tera
also leon you're correct that keeping tera as a good extra works but now the thing is that ever since zygarde went you haven't touched tera even half as many times so i think it could be expendable to force a k.o. in my opinion
uhh hey leon I also tried out your team on the ladder a bit and i altered the team a little bit while I was laddering, your version is prolly better but this actually suited me a bit better when I was testing
I also changed a few moves on some mons that i felt were suited better accordingly so here is a list of changes that I chose to clock in
Overall the team was quite self reliant and fun to use, do try out my edited team and tell me if theres something wrong with it, ty for it
I also changed a few moves on some mons that i felt were suited better accordingly so here is a list of changes that I chose to clock in
Giratina: I realised how dangerous poison heal is to this team so i decided to lose core enforcer and gave it entrainment which also gives you a counter to normalise entrainment while dealing with the popular phealer xerneas, It was quite funny because you actually splashed core enforcer a lot in this team, Also changed him to boots as he will be pivoting around a lot
Pdon: I actually left pdon the same, the set was good for catching fc walls and self sufficient while dauntless shield did help out in stopping a few zacians. It served as an emergency fallback and I also tried download but the damage output upgrade just wasn't as significant.
Dialga-O: This mon is a special tank that switches out immediately. So I decided that over spectral thief I can keep nuzzle to instantly cripple attackers who try and break the dialga.
Audino: Ok so this is a niche mon I love using but wasn't too needed on this team, tapu fini was just fine but I wanted to try and use it due to its superior defensive stats. Gave it bunker over spiky shield as you had mentioned that your team's goal was to weaken the opponent's team as much as possible so I figured that status was great for it and gave it bunker.
Scizor: I actually chose this over ferrothorn because it drops the fighting weakness and offers similar physical bulk. this is half of my zacian check as giratina is the other half to parting shot them so they dont hit as hard on poor scizor. I chose scizor for better offensive capabilities as I encountered a few sub-dance zacians and ferro had problems breaking subs. Spectral thief also helps deal with them.
Regigigas: Yes this is the regigigas set i suggested earlier with normalise rend that improofs itself with giratina. Giratina was too common so i gave it dark memory as I no longer care about zacians, or just give it ghost memory if bored.
Pdon: I actually left pdon the same, the set was good for catching fc walls and self sufficient while dauntless shield did help out in stopping a few zacians. It served as an emergency fallback and I also tried download but the damage output upgrade just wasn't as significant.
Dialga-O: This mon is a special tank that switches out immediately. So I decided that over spectral thief I can keep nuzzle to instantly cripple attackers who try and break the dialga.
Audino: Ok so this is a niche mon I love using but wasn't too needed on this team, tapu fini was just fine but I wanted to try and use it due to its superior defensive stats. Gave it bunker over spiky shield as you had mentioned that your team's goal was to weaken the opponent's team as much as possible so I figured that status was great for it and gave it bunker.
Scizor: I actually chose this over ferrothorn because it drops the fighting weakness and offers similar physical bulk. this is half of my zacian check as giratina is the other half to parting shot them so they dont hit as hard on poor scizor. I chose scizor for better offensive capabilities as I encountered a few sub-dance zacians and ferro had problems breaking subs. Spectral thief also helps deal with them.
Regigigas: Yes this is the regigigas set i suggested earlier with normalise rend that improofs itself with giratina. Giratina was too common so i gave it dark memory as I no longer care about zacians, or just give it ghost memory if bored.
Overall the team was quite self reliant and fun to use, do try out my edited team and tell me if theres something wrong with it, ty for it
let's just drop the gigas argument alright people
anyway here's some observations about the post-zyg meta:
Zacian-Crowned @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Gigaton Hammer
- U-turn
- Magical Torque
expect to see a lot more ability shields because of this boy. with the bulkiest mon in the meta gone, even FC mbro and mega steelix are 2HKOed by tera steel sunsteel after minor chip, while pdon is 2HKOed from full. it's not even hard to improof because imp doesn't have band nor tera steel so your own pdon suffices.
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Photon Geyser
- Strength Sap
- Astral Barrage
another mon that loves zygc being gone. it doesn't have a reason to run glance anymore and its dual STAB has great coverage by itself, letting it run all-out attacking sets with lo+sap to easen prediction while still having longevity. the last slot takes advantage of its two best checks, fc luna/mbro, by blasting them with its not-bad-at-all base 154 spatk, OHKOing fc bro with cc+astral even with a negative nature. as i said before, another reason to run ashield on physical walls, even FC dozo is otherwise cleanly 2HKOed by geyser.
Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- V-create
- Morning Sun
- Knock Off
- Electro Drift / Solar Beam
the other big beneficiary. pdon loses one of its best check and now fc waters are the only thing in the way of its brutal v-creates, which lets it easily slot in counterplay for them (solar beam hits fc pert and can be abused by primsea while improofing while drift beats stuff like worry seed waterceus). knock off meanwhile compliments the above mons, baiting in and removing ashield from any physical walls as the biggest knock absorbers in phealers can't exactly take vc (ph gyara fares the best theoretically but it's 2HKOed by your anti-water move and anyway look at this absurd calc:
+1 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega in Harsh Sunshine: 345-407 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
yeah, not the best switchin). the other big pdon switchin, imposter, also loathes knock off, so it has to be forced into a tough choice. some other physical attackers that phealers can't check are also good knock supports to remove ashields and thus switchins to those guys.
Sceptile-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Energy
- Seed Flare
- Volt Switch
- Blue Flare
this set isn't nearly as good as others posted above, however, it's extremely funny. dragon energy 2HKOes scales dialga after a little chip while seed flare can spdef drop hax past other scalers. zacc meanwhile either dies to blue flare or gets endlessly volted on. can theoretically be paired with something like specs gar that forces stuff to drop cloak for ashield.
conclusion: moldy moves are stupid broken
anyway here's some observations about the post-zyg meta:
Zacian-Crowned @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Gigaton Hammer
- U-turn
- Magical Torque
expect to see a lot more ability shields because of this boy. with the bulkiest mon in the meta gone, even FC mbro and mega steelix are 2HKOed by tera steel sunsteel after minor chip, while pdon is 2HKOed from full. it's not even hard to improof because imp doesn't have band nor tera steel so your own pdon suffices.
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Photon Geyser
- Strength Sap
- Astral Barrage
another mon that loves zygc being gone. it doesn't have a reason to run glance anymore and its dual STAB has great coverage by itself, letting it run all-out attacking sets with lo+sap to easen prediction while still having longevity. the last slot takes advantage of its two best checks, fc luna/mbro, by blasting them with its not-bad-at-all base 154 spatk, OHKOing fc bro with cc+astral even with a negative nature. as i said before, another reason to run ashield on physical walls, even FC dozo is otherwise cleanly 2HKOed by geyser.
Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- V-create
- Morning Sun
- Knock Off
- Electro Drift / Solar Beam
the other big beneficiary. pdon loses one of its best check and now fc waters are the only thing in the way of its brutal v-creates, which lets it easily slot in counterplay for them (solar beam hits fc pert and can be abused by primsea while improofing while drift beats stuff like worry seed waterceus). knock off meanwhile compliments the above mons, baiting in and removing ashield from any physical walls as the biggest knock absorbers in phealers can't exactly take vc (ph gyara fares the best theoretically but it's 2HKOed by your anti-water move and anyway look at this absurd calc:
+1 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega in Harsh Sunshine: 345-407 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
yeah, not the best switchin). the other big pdon switchin, imposter, also loathes knock off, so it has to be forced into a tough choice. some other physical attackers that phealers can't check are also good knock supports to remove ashields and thus switchins to those guys.
Sceptile-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Energy
- Seed Flare
- Volt Switch
- Blue Flare
this set isn't nearly as good as others posted above, however, it's extremely funny. dragon energy 2HKOes scales dialga after a little chip while seed flare can spdef drop hax past other scalers. zacc meanwhile either dies to blue flare or gets endlessly volted on. can theoretically be paired with something like specs gar that forces stuff to drop cloak for ashield.
conclusion: moldy moves are stupid broken
First of all, Thank You! I really appreciate your feedback!uhh hey leon I also tried out your team on the ladder a bit and i altered the team a little bit while I was laddering, your version is prolly better but this actually suited me a bit better when I was testing
I also changed a few moves on some mons that i felt were suited better accordingly so here is a list of changes that I chose to clock in
Giratina: I realised how dangerous poison heal is to this team so i decided to lose core enforcer and gave it entrainment which also gives you a counter to normalise entrainment while dealing with the popular phealer xerneas, It was quite funny because you actually splashed core enforcer a lot in this team, Also changed him to boots as he will be pivoting around a lot
Pdon: I actually left pdon the same, the set was good for catching fc walls and self sufficient while dauntless shield did help out in stopping a few zacians. It served as an emergency fallback and I also tried download but the damage output upgrade just wasn't as significant.
Dialga-O: This mon is a special tank that switches out immediately. So I decided that over spectral thief I can keep nuzzle to instantly cripple attackers who try and break the dialga.
Audino: Ok so this is a niche mon I love using but wasn't too needed on this team, tapu fini was just fine but I wanted to try and use it due to its superior defensive stats. Gave it bunker over spiky shield as you had mentioned that your team's goal was to weaken the opponent's team as much as possible so I figured that status was great for it and gave it bunker.
Scizor: I actually chose this over ferrothorn because it drops the fighting weakness and offers similar physical bulk. this is half of my zacian check as giratina is the other half to parting shot them so they dont hit as hard on poor scizor. I chose scizor for better offensive capabilities as I encountered a few sub-dance zacians and ferro had problems breaking subs. Spectral thief also helps deal with them.
Regigigas: Yes this is the regigigas set i suggested earlier with normalise rend that improofs itself with giratina. Giratina was too common so i gave it dark memory as I no longer care about zacians, or just give it ghost memory if bored.
Overall the team was quite self reliant and fun to use, do try out my edited team and tell me if theres something wrong with it, ty for it
It’s discussions like this that inspire people to experiment with standard teams like mine, and also come up with creative ones too! I think your edits make total sense and I see how my team and your team could equally be effective! You are a great team builder too!
Giratina: I agree that Entrainment makes sense for Giratina due to Prankster really bypassing other Pokémon like Normalize users. The only concern is that most Ghosts would go for the STAB Ghost move before Entrainment, depending on how healthy Giratina is, unless Giratina Teras into another type first (or Entrainments on their Switch-in).
I do, however, like the idea of bypassing Fairy-types, including Pixelate Pokémon, who now cannot use STAB, AND are not immune to losing their abilities. This is relevant because I find that Fairy-types are the LEAST likely to use Ability Shield items, so it totally works Bc it takes advantage to all of the above!
I may consider switching it out on my own team’s Core Enforcer since I already use it on Dialga, and Tapu-Fini!
Dialga: I feel it totally makes sense for Nuzzle to work, I just feel that it competes with Poison from Mortal Spin and Baneful Bunker. An opponent can just pivot in their pre-statused Poisoned Pokémon and end up negating your Nuzzle. And that could be a Pokémon that already forced out Dialga and then since they can stay in, they gain momentum.
Spectral Thief has saved me in some games, especially against Torch Song and Quiver Dance users.
However, Nuzzle does make sense on your team more than mine Bc you are not using Tapu-Fini, so you don’t have to compete with Scald Burns for trying to target the Pokémon with the right status move.
Scizor: Higher Atk, higher physical Defense, although faster Speed (can backfire after using Rapid Spin, in case the foe Core Enforcers you to remove Fire Immunity), and lower SpD bulk.
The SpD bulk let’s it check Fairy-types (not counter but at least check).
Still, for Scizor, I like that it has zero weaknesses, and Anchor Shot packs a punch!
After 6 Rapid Spins, Ferrothorn is still 160 speed, which is 4x the normal 40 Speed, underspending walls like Dialga’a Core Enforcer. This means it won’t lose to Core, even after it may have PP stalled out Imposter with Anchor Shot and can stay in on other slower walls.
This is key Bc if Dialga comes in, it cannot just Core, and pivot with Volt Switch or U-Turn, to a Fire Attack user.
It could go either way with this Pokemon over Ferrothorn. It’s a nice alternative and I may try it out!
I appreciate your input on Regigigas, so it sounds like you prefer my Regigigas set with
Multi-Attack Dark / Ghost and Strength Sap, since you opt for that over the Ground Memory.
Ya, I felt like being able to Heal with Strength Sap is more reliable than being Choice Locked on an average speed Pokemon.
I also like the fact that since Tera is only optional, not required, you are using Giratina as an Improof, and not just relying on Regi to Improof itself. A great use of the now best overall Wall: Giratina, as an exciting new use!
Giratina is also nice Bc it resists Water, so it helps even against non-Normalzie Fishous Rend, which is something Zygarde-Complete didn’t do.
Lastly, your link includes a team with the old Gyarados-Mega over Regigigas, but I think your set is basically my set with Tera Ghost over Tera Normal;
Regigigas @ Dark / Ghost Memory
Ability: Normalize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishous Rend
- Shift Gear
- Strength Sap / Spectral Thief
- Multi-Attack
Right?
Awesome!
For augustakira you should update Choice Band set to include: Tera Blast.
A lot of people don’t know what that move does, so I pasted the description from Bulba, since it matches the users type after Tera, but is always Normal-type before Tera. And then, it is ONLY Physical after Tera + Higher Atk stat, but is special before. So if you decide to have a Ghost Tera on a Choice Band set for Improofing, or for having coverage thru Tera Blast, it is an option.
“Tera Blast deals damage. If the user's Attack stat is higher than its Special Attack stat, Tera Blast becomes a physical move when Terastallized; otherwise, it remains a special move. For determining which stat is higher, stat stage-modifiers are taken into account, but other effects (e.g. held items such as a Choice Band, Abilities such as Huge Power, etc.) are not.
If the user has Terastallized, Tera Blast's type becomes the same as their Tera Type, and the move has a different animation depending on the move's type. Tera Blast is always considered Normal-type for the purpose of Gale Wings.”
This way, the Normalize Choice Band set has an option for Ghost coverage, especially with STAB after Tera Ghost. ;)
Tera into Normal is okay, but you may as well at least consider it as an option.
Also, Thanks everyone for a great discussion on my team, the use of Regigigas, Guts, Normalize, etc.
Hopefully we can continue with more Sample Teams, and give eachother positive and helpful feedback to provide alternatives and improvements like Cta and I have!
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gonna update this sample submission for a good post-zyg ban team:i made many team with similar structures but i feel like this on worked out the best so gonna submit it:
Palkia-O Balance:
The star of this team is Adaptability Palkia-Origin. This mon is a good breaker with a great dual STAB for special walls (hits grounds, water that ohkoes pdon...) and most importantly, has some good defensive utility. Its speed and Strength Sap allow it to be a great blanket check to most PDon sets, and it can also stomach FIshious easily and check non-Torque/Pixilate Zacian, a job made much easier if you Tera to get rid of your secondary Dragon typing. Other than that, Palkia's got some good power and almost-unresisted STABs in the meta, forcing Ice Scales users to spam recovery and thus play more passively. Improofed by the standard Scales Dialga-O.
252 SpA Lustrous Globe Adaptability Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 370-436 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after a layer)
252 SpA Lustrous Globe Adaptability Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 436-516 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lustrous Globe Adaptability Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 712-840 (111.9 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Lustrous Globe Adaptability Palkia-Origin Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 314-370 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
This passive play that I mentioned is used and abused by MMX, a very deadly wallbreaker under the right conditions. Electro Drift catches FC Waters, which otherwise wall it, something that also supports Zacian. The rest of the set is pretty standard, a very good breaker only truly walled by FC Luna (FC Zygarde has to avoid chip at all costs to not get 2HKOed by geyser after a layer of Spikes). My own FC Zygarde is enough to improof generally though, as no LO means imposter only does up to 34% to it. Sap Zacian can also emergency improof.
Prank Yveltal eats attacks from the Psychics that Dialga can't take (headlong and the likes), doesn Prank stuff and sets up spikes with edge (while 2HKOing MMY/MGar and OHKOing DeoA to pressure walls better (since as you could see many calcs were helped by spikes a lot). Finally Pixilate Zacian is a swiss army knife-mon: Population Bomb can be a huge headache for the opponent if they only have FC Waters to check it and MMX kills it, it can knock stuff to remove potential ability shields for MMX and helmets for itself, Sap+high Speed+great typing gives it good defensive utility as a backup MMX soft check to eat GLances and Spin makes you impossible to revenge while being an unblockable form of hazard control. Decently self-proof too, as fairy resist+sap means you only have to risk losing your item (and same goes for imposter), though you can use FC Zyg in an emergency. Memed on by PDon but don itself is memed on by one of my offensive mons which is nice.
Great against teams relying on FC Waters as their main physical wall, and against passive Mortal Spinners that can't damage Dialga. Passivity overall is something punished hard on this team.
Effectiveness: Consistent team that got me to top 1 on ladder.
Weaknesses:
-: FC Lunala is the only real wall to MMX and also does well against Zacian, meaning teams with it can easily be a problem. Palkia can't even come in on it too freely just in case it has Nuzzle, meaning you need to pivot from Dialga first.
-: Special-attacking fairies, while not as popular as xern on SS BH, are a big pain to this team if they manage to overwhelm Dialga, as you can see by this team's 4 fairy weak mons. Going Tera Steel on Yveltal helps, and Zacian can emergency check sometimes.
-
Luckily those threats aren't too common in the meta, meaning this team will do quite well against common teams and will get consistent results thanks to all the mons being reliable, able to come in quite often and with the right tools for longer games too.
(edit: made a couple tweaks to the team and added proof of peak)
fc zyg has beem replaced with fc waterceus, which sorta covers the same role of being a good physical wall that improofs mmx along with zacc. i also replaced prank yvel with eviolite imposter, which i just felt was a better mon. the team's other than that quite the same thing, mmx is now better thanks to zyg being gone and knock zac is especially nice to remove ashields of physical walls for it.
yeah, thanks for your feedback too, i've tried the team more and your sets do make sense, will implement them
darmz sounds interesting but at the same time isn't a good mmx improof unless you tera, which forces you to rely on zacc and potentially die to close combat if you're chipped/imp is lucky punch. did do some changes to the team though:
https://pokepast.es/a9f75c259a1af388
replaced waterceus with fc dozo which despite being passive as balls is a good check to everything compared to waterceus which sometimes suffered from being setup fodder. also since my arc slot was free i used scales fairy as my special wall, though wondering if groundy/mpert would be better to have something that absorbs mirai's elec STAB
Another cool set
Gengar-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Astral Barrage
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Volt Switch
I found this set cool because recently zygarde's loss made people force replacements like ting lu and giratina onto their teams and this thing can hit like a truck even without beads here are some calcs against some premier spd walls atm
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ting-Lu: 220-258 (42.8 - 50.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - A common counter to mgar, regenvest is great to wall mgar but is hopeless after a single layer of spikes.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga-Origin: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Dialga-O gets ko-ed even without your spike if its scales
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - High chance of ko after light hazard damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Swampert-Mega: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - same with scales but it gets hit harder with moongeist beam
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fairy: 210-247 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO - This is ofc after you get rid of the ability shield, add a layer of spikes to ensure the ko
overall it deals with some common special walls pretty well, normal types do tend to fracture this strategy as you can no longer spam your ghost stabs but it still works as a good wallbreaker since the introduction of ting lu to the metagame.
Gengar-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Astral Barrage
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Volt Switch
I found this set cool because recently zygarde's loss made people force replacements like ting lu and giratina onto their teams and this thing can hit like a truck even without beads here are some calcs against some premier spd walls atm
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ting-Lu: 220-258 (42.8 - 50.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - A common counter to mgar, regenvest is great to wall mgar but is hopeless after a single layer of spikes.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga-Origin: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Dialga-O gets ko-ed even without your spike if its scales
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - High chance of ko after light hazard damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Swampert-Mega: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - same with scales but it gets hit harder with moongeist beam
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fairy: 210-247 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO - This is ofc after you get rid of the ability shield, add a layer of spikes to ensure the ko
overall it deals with some common special walls pretty well, normal types do tend to fracture this strategy as you can no longer spam your ghost stabs but it still works as a good wallbreaker since the introduction of ting lu to the metagame.
I like your set, and the emphasis on Normal-types being the only hard-stop, since Tinted Lens breaks Dark-types.Another cool set
Gengar-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Astral Barrage
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Volt Switch
I found this set cool because recently zygarde's loss made people force replacements like ting lu and giratina onto their teams and this thing can hit like a truck even without beads here are some calcs against some premier spd walls atm
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ting-Lu: 220-258 (42.8 - 50.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - A common counter to mgar, regenvest is great to wall mgar but is hopeless after a single layer of spikes.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga-Origin: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Dialga-O gets ko-ed even without your spike if its scales
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga-Origin: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - High chance of ko after light hazard damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Swampert-Mega: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes - same with scales but it gets hit harder with moongeist beam
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Fairy: 210-247 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO - This is ofc after you get rid of the ability shield, add a layer of spikes to ensure the ko
overall it deals with some common special walls pretty well, normal types do tend to fracture this strategy as you can no longer spam your ghost stabs but it still works as a good wallbreaker since the introduction of ting lu to the metagame.
Before people start discussing good Normal-type SpD walls, I wanted to highlight —
Beads of Ruin only impact the foe’s SpD, but Secret Sword hits Defense, so Hadron Engine can boost it instead.
Here is an example of the difference in power:
Beads of Ruin ability vs Chansey IS/FC + SRocks
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat / Ice Scales Chansey: 225-265 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Now, look at Hadron Engine vs Chansey with Ice Scales / Fur Coat + SRocks.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ice Scales Chansey: 300-354 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Bottom Line: Use Hadron Engine over Beads if you have Secret Sword, plus it lets you use Volt Switch and Rising Voltage, which can threaten Pokémon like Gyarados-Mega, Yveltal, and Arceus-Water (and even SpD Walls like Ho-Oh) which can brush off other coverage moves from Gengar-Mega.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Gengar-Mega Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh in Electric Terrain: 258-304 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As Gengar-Mega’s Tinted Lens becomes more popular, players will have to also prepare for Hadron Engine since they won’t know upon Team Preview which ability it has.
Gengar-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hadron Engine
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Moongeist Beam
- Secret Sword
- Volt Switch / Astral Barrage / Filler
Rising Voltage is stronger under Electric Terrain than Sludge Bomb.
Moongeist Beam‘s 30% boost from Hadron Engine puts it above Astral Barrage’s power on Tinted Lens.
If Modest;
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga: 315-372 (77.9 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Secret Sword bypasses Assault Vest, and hits Dark-types, Steel-types, and Normal-types without reliance on Tinted Lens.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Gengar-Mega Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ting-Lu: 306-362 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Volt Switch serves as momentum, dents would-be checks in Ice Scales Yveltal, Gyarados-Mega, Ho-Oh, etc.
Astral is for maximum power, and could be replaced by a coverage move like Trick.
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thanks for the set leon, I had something similar but without hadron and beads, the beads not affecting sword was pretty new to me because I thought it would use the def stat in place of spd like wonder room but that doesn't matter rn ig.
Another interesting thing I noticed is that beserk gene is no longer available in the teambuilder but just today I saw a player use it, am i stupid in some way or is there still some sort of lingering bug?
Another interesting thing I noticed is that beserk gene is no longer available in the teambuilder but just today I saw a player use it, am i stupid in some way or is there still some sort of lingering bug?
Btw leon I wanted to ask if you had thought of any possible improofs for this set, I considered an a shield scales arc ground but thats kinda specific and may not do too well against all mons in the meta since almost every player on ladder forgor to remove g-lance since zygarde ban.
Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Simple
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Quiver Dance
- Secret Sword
- Heal Order
Theres also this crazy arc set i thought of as a possible improof as it doesnt get 2hkos and can freely setup as mgar improofs it
252+ SpA Hadron Engine Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arceus-Ground: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
However this improof is extremely shaky as light hazard damage and a good read will cripple your switchins. Perhaps scales a shield arc is a better choice. The main goal of the plate is to also serve as a light entrainment check which frees up your teambuilding a bit ig
still though its not too reliable
Swampert-Mega @ Ability Shield
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Heal Order
- Volt Switch/Entrainment
- Spectral Thief
Theres also this based mixed swampert set that traps imposters switching on it and improofs the mgar set. Be careful of k-off/corrosive gas on it. pert is entrainment because pheal arc fairy/xern is way too common. This works as a pretty good special wall as long as you avoid salt cure and keep the ability shield to block entrainments too. Tbh this is a lot better counter than the arc set i posted above as this calc
252+ SpA Hadron Engine Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ability Shield Ice Scales Swampert-Mega: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
This lets you freely switch in and out of gengar's face. tbf pretty much any ability shield scales mon can improof that mgar but swampert is a great option because of VOLT SWITCH SWAMPERT and some pretty good typing but chloroblast mmy stops it
Another thing I noticed when laddering: The popular sunsteel tinted cb zacian isn't unwallable. funny thing is that the fc wall doesnt switch on its face but the imposter does. So i decided to exploit that, this is how you should be running zacian
Zacian-Crowned @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely/Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def
- Sunsteel Strike
- Gigaton Hammer
- U-turn
- Knock Off
Why abandon the bulk? because the imposter copies your nature, ivs, evs, so just exploit that and be fragile. Improofing is easy too.
this calc is why you can drop zacian's bulk for offensive ability
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Zacian-Crowned Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Eviolite Chansey: 420-496 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In the calculator i set chansey's base defence stat to that of zacian's base defence to mimic the transformation.
anyways this lets you 2hko if you can switch to your counter and pivot back over to zacian quickly letting you easily exploit the imposter and start forcing kos
another common zacian counter is prankster, stalling out sunsteel strikes doesn't let you take any kos. The biggest culprit of this is prankster giratina that gets this calc for zacian's gigaton if you predict the switch
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Zacian-Crowned Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 406-478 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just barely survives the gigaton hit and if its boots it avoids hazard damage. anyways it doesn't really wall all zacians so i'd suggest keeping your zacian sets unique if you wanna wallbreak well or, or, or...
Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Pursuit
- Photon Geyser
- Close Combat
- U-turn
force their tera to bully them :)
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