Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion v2

Alright, after returning back to Showdown for a couple days, I figured I'd give my two cents on a few of the aforementioned threats:

:sm/metagross-mega:

For the love of god, just get rid of this already. It's proven itself to be way too unhealthy time and time again, and as was stated before, only stayed in the tier because of a technicality. Teams need multiple ways of preventing this from steamrolling them, which was already difficult enough prior to the DLC with all the other, less-broken threats that need to be accounted for. There's no reason this should be staying in the tier, especially since I think we can agree that this is the biggest problem in the tier.

Urshifu (doesn't have an available sprite yet)

Basically what everyone else already said; it has no consistent defensive answers.

:sm/greninja-ash:

Not nearly as broken. Pex, Fini, and the rising Gastrodon all take this on rather well, as well as Ferrothorn and rarer stuff like AV Tang. The only problem is that Mega Metagross pressures all of these rather well, making it the best Ash-Gren partner (besides maybe Rotom-H), hence why it tends to be harder to prepare for this.

:ss/Dracovish:

Despite this thing's many flaws, it's incredibly centralizing regardless of Band or Scarf. You pretty much HAVE to have a Phys. Def. Tang, Slowbro or Alomomola on your team or this mops the floor with you, and these mons are already pressured as is to handle other Pokemon like the aforementioned Metagross. Not to mention that Band occasionally sees play on rain teams as an alternative to Manaphy, which means these checks are 2HKOed on the switch (Scarf can achieve this as well with hazards). It's also worth noting that all Water Absorb mons that have a niche in the tier lack either the bulk or recovery for reliably answering Vish as well, making them coin tosses at best. Not exactly top priority, seeing as Bro, Tang, Gastro and Mola are all staples rn, but should definitely be looked at in the future.
 
:ss/Dracovish:
Just chiming in to add my thoughts on this thing. I was looking through the ladder usage stats, and I was wondering "why has Dracovish got more usage than Mega Gross and Heatran??" The answer was pretty self-explanatory. 1760 usage stats below:
Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | %
| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 22.94114% | 136784 | 12.284%
| 2 | Dragapult | 18.55503% | 119644 | 10.745%
| 3 | Ferrothorn | 17.89582% | 121659 | 10.926%
| 4 | Greninja-Ash | 17.85296% | 147866 | 13.280%
| 5 | Dracovish | 16.56611% | 96280 | 8.647%
| 6 | Metagross-Mega | 14.95177% | 98153 | 8.815%
| 7 | Heatran | 14.51944% | 87707 | 7.877%
| 8 | Clefable | 14.24018% | 76828 | 6.900%
| 9 | Darmanitan-Galar | 13.60213% | 122493 | 11.001%
| 10 | Slowbro | 12.76290% | 59273 | 5.323%
| 11 | Tornadus-Therian | 11.21770% | 53617 | 4.815%
| 12 | Corviknight | 10.57355% | 61116 | 5.489%
| 13 | Magearna | 10.55835% | 55773 | 5.009%
| 14 | Tapu Koko | 10.26231% | 80712 | 7.249%
| 15 | Tapu Fini | 10.17048% | 61711 | 5.542%
Yes, Nat Dex ladder can be very jank etc etc, but what I think is critical is its comparatively low "raw" (ie:unweighted) usage. This means the majority of its usage is confined to upper ladder, where it is weighted more heavily. So, if players with Dracovish are in the upper ladder and consistently finding success, what should that tell us? There just aren't any switch-ins to a Banded Dracovish. I keep seeing CHECKS like Slowbro and Phys Def Tang bought up, but they are just that, CHECKS, not counters. This means they CANNOT switch in.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 179-211 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 164-193 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 221-261 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (and all it can do back is Toxic it or use the equivalent of a 30% accurate Will-O-Wisp)
The only counterplay to a Banded Dracovish is offensive counterplay and Water immunities. The latter is very rare in the current metagame. The former is unrealistic. To have to constantly make sure Dracovish doesn't come in against something it forces it out is near-impossible. Not to mention it murders and constrains all the bulky Waters and Grasses, preventing them checking all the other broken threats running around. You end up having to run multiple very sturdy Water resists on every team to not lose to Dracovish backed by Ash-Gren. While Dracovish isn't the most obvious problem, it is the ultimate matchup fish, and its presence is both uncompetitive and unhealthy.

As for the other threats...
:Metagross-Mega: Lol why was this thing even in the tier post-Dyna. Self-explanatory, plz ban Dialga, I mean Mega Metagross.
:Greninja-Ash: From the experience of last gen, I feel it's the pressure everything else is putting on its checks that makes this opressive. By the end of last gen it was pretty lackluster at breaking through the balance teams of the day, as teams just naturally contained counterplay without really having to go out of their way to do so. But I wouldn't be surprised to see this thrown under the bus, and tbh I won't miss it if it goes (as long as we keep Protean Greninja).
New thing I can't be bothered to spell without a sprite-Yeah, 120 BP Dark/Fighting STABs with anti-Fairy coverage, huge Attack, U-turn access... I doubt this will stick.
:Tornadus-Therian: Wow we really discussing if this is broken. The Boots obviously help its longevity massively to the point it's hard to wear it down if it avoids Knock Offs (it even takes Toxics reasonably well). And the metagame does lack Flying switch-ins, but I just think this is a consequence of everything else. If Corviknight wasn't so exploitable, this would be fine.
:Darmanitan-Galar: "Hey guys, what if, instead of choosing between Banded Darm and Scarfed Darm, you could have BOTH??"-someone at Game Freak designing this thing. Pretty obvious what it does by now. And even if you have counterplay for it, its bulging brain lets its spam U-turn forever until your checks are in KO range. Not to mention niche sets like Z-move and Boots exist to make dealing with it even more awkward.
:Lopunny-Mega: It's pretty obvious that U-turn Lopunny, buffed Scrappy and Mega Lopunny were never meant to meet. So we have another Shell Smash Mega Blastoise, except not as blatantly broken. It hasn't gained any obvious extra power in terms of raw damage output, but as multiple of the above Pokemon show, U-turn can be massive for a mon's toolkit. And just ask Expert Belt Genesect how that works out if you don't even have to be Choiced and your U-turn does decent damage.
:Kyurem: Freeze Dry has turned this thing from "pretty useless" to "pretty broken" overnight. Generically specially bulky mons can handle it to an extent, but those without a Freeze-Dry or Earth Power weakness are in short supply right now. And then you have to account for both Specs and SubRoost. Pretty scary mon.
:Dragapult: Z move DD Sub Pult is another example of something that Game Freak didn't account for when designing mons. Normally just pivoting between a Normal or Dark type and a Fairy type is enough to stall it out, but with Never-Ending-Nightmare Dragapult can just bypass or cripple the Fairy. Not to mention there is a serious shortage of Normals and sturdy Darks. And Steel Wing+Steelium exists for those who want to just bypass Mega Ttar and Clef and have a way to handle Steels. This would be scary enough, if it wasn't for its speed tier making all offensive counterplay that can't eat a +1 Dragon Darts useless. My opinion on this is torn. On one hand it is stupid as hell. On the other, I can see defensive cores being able to adapt to it if they weren't so tied up.
:Garchomp: Wow this metagame has no Dragon switch-ins. Garchomp just does what Garchomp has been doing for 4 gens. God help us if this gets Dragon Dance after all.
:Cinderace: Hello Protean Greninja that I can run on the same team as Ash-Greninja. Not a lot more to say really.

Meanwhile:
:Aegislash: *metagame burns around it* "Ha, ha, I sure am broken! Right guys? Guys? *metagame continues to burn* EDIT: Lol this is my signature now.

Wow, this was a lot longer than intended. To wrap it up, I think every gen since Gen 5 has had breakers without hard counters. Indeed, an ideal offensive mon has as few counters as possible, so there is a fundamental issue with banning every single offensive threat without counters: in order to win, players want their breakers to be as good as possible. But this gen we are facing a MASSIVE overload of them that makes playing SM stall look easy by comparison. Look at the length of UUBL (Nat Dex or normal OU) and you'll see an absurd list of breakers with 1-2 counters in the entire tier that can blindside and destroy a team from preview (Guardsweeper mentioned Manaphy, who is a great example of this). And we have banned in that time 4 mons and Arena Trap (discounting bans carried forward from previous gens, @ Everyone who wanted more unbans lol) and got a DNB for another one. Stuff needs to happen. Like, yesterday. Please.
 
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I mean, yeah metagame is in chaos right now because we are not only dealing with mess that is old SM metagame, we have to deal with new and old pokemon abusing new and old stuff that gamefreak did not intend as to use.
And this Gen also gave us best choice scarf and dance users the meta OU has ever seen. And most

:dracovish:
‎”I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.”
Basically, what I am saying is that this thing has opposite of 4MS. Sometimes I make mistake of thinking what I am supposed to click when answer is always obvious. Fishious Rend all day every day. I thought about running choice scarf, but choice bad is almost always better because of it easily abuses defensive cores. And if you are running it rain,Japanese nuclear reactors blow up every time you hit something that is not immune to it.


Now on to something that requires little more brain power. This actually has to chose between its stabs. The problem is, while other choice band dark users in past had to rely on weaker stab attacks or one time boosted knock off, this thing gets to fire off a powerful stab in Wicked Blow that crits so it ignores deffensive boots. But honestly the biggest problem right now is that most fairies are not really that good (clefable as most prominent example) because of Mega-Metagross. And it still has poison jab for them and u-turn if they switch in. So it is pretty hard to deal with.


:darmanitan-galar:
This mon man. While yes it basically has worse huge power as an ability, it is also perfect for way it wants to play. It makes 2 choices out of one. You U-turn early and clean up later with stab . Nothing can switch into it safely without checking with protect first (because u-turn chunks anything that is not resisted to it and also defensivly oriented). Sometimes it actually feels that only reason you are running fire coverage is to revenge kill opposite Darmanitan-Galar.

And most suprising for last.

:rillaboom:
The biggest problems with choice Rillaboom were few things. It did not have enough power with choice scarf to kill anything since a lot of teams naturally run grass resistances. Offensive teams would be able to revenge kill choice band sets since its meddeling speed with faster pokemon or other choice scarfed users. And it still needed to run adamant to do some actual damage to teams. And it never really had enough coverage to hit some annoying types such and grass and some flying and steel types. Now while coverage issue did not change, the way it conducts itself does. Enter grassy glide. This move basically makes choice scarf sets obsolete. Now Rillaboom, under grassy terrain, has strongest, most disgusting priority in the game. With this it is able to revenge kill almost all choice scarf and dragon dance users such us weekend Dragapult (around 60 percent health) and Darmatian galar. It is able to clean up weekend teams once its checks and counters are removed or weekend. It also gets u-turn for momentum and knock off. Knock off is especially helpful to remove heave duty boots since it naturally summons flying types (pivot Tornadus-Therian). And this also opens up up forth slot for woodhamer. While yes grass is resisted by seven types ,Jesus Fucking Christ, if something does not resist it or it is frail, it can not really switch in to it more then once.

I am actually running double gorilla core (Darmilaboom?). They naturally break though each other checks and counters and both can clean up weekend teams.
 
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Chazm

Z-moves did (almost) nothing wrong
is a Pre-Contributor
Here's a few thoughts I'm having with the current metagame.

:sm/metagross-mega:

I don't really use this mon at all. I think that the binary nature of it as a wincon just does not suit my playstyle. But that's honestly not enough reasoning for me to not consider this mon broken. The usage of Toxic sets just makes teambuilding really difficult to execute properly without running multiple Mega Metagross checks just for its presence, and although some may be easy to fit they are likely prone to instant hax. The sheer amount of coverage this Pokemon has also really restricts teambuilding in terms of what can and can't be used as checks, as certain decent checks such as Landorus-Therian need to be backed up with other checks such as Shuca Aegislash in order to prevent the occasional usage of Ice Punch Mega Metagross, which whilst uncommon elsewhere, is a fairly common option on the ladder. I don't really consider it healthy right now and I do think it could use a suspect again somewhere down the line.

Urshifu-Single-Strike

I also don't really consider this mon too healthy but it's not the case of being overly viable, because Urshifu-SS has some pretty decent offensive counterplay and as such can't really get in too often vs offensive teams. However, I do feel like the absolute stranglehold this mon has over balance teams is completely unhealthy as balance has absolutely no capability of switching in safely vs it, except to use PhysDef Clefable, which feels very awkward in the metagame right now. Other variants outside of Choice Band are also capable of wrecking these sorts of balances, such as Poisonium Z + Bulk Up, which combined with Urshifu's solid physical bulk can just make checking it a complete nightmare overall. I think this mon isn't broken enough to deserve a quickban but would be my first preference for a suspect test.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

Not all that great of a mon but I do believe that Urshifu-RS happens to have a particularly solid role in the current metagame as a bulky Choice Scarfer which can switch into many of the problem threats once or twice depending on their action. Galarian Darmanitan and Ash-Greninja have needed more counterplay in recent months and I do believe that Urshifu-RS has this role covered.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 24 HP / 232 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Thunder Punch

The HP EVs on this set allow Urshifu-RS to take a Close Combat from Choice Band Urshifu-SS from full HP. If you want to do this after Stealth Rock and tank two Specs Greninja Hydro Pumps, a spread of 116 HP / 76 Atk / 68 SpD / 252 Spe may be viable.


:ss/cinderace:

Cinderace is fantastic right now, but I don't really think it's exactly busted on the same level as Urshifu-SS and Mega Metagross are. Choice Scarf sets are absolutely amazing at dealing with problem mons on offensive teams like Volcarona and Shift Gear Magearna, as well as revenge killing or chipping down common offensive cores like Tapu Fini + Tangrowth, and Slowbro + Ferrothorn. It also happens to have a pretty decent matchup against rain, which, whilst not as powerful as some other speed control options in the metagame, is still a perfectly valid option to have for anti-Swampert counterplay. Darkinium Z isn't as powerful as I feel Choice Scarf Cinderace is right now, but the significance of Darkinium Z can't really be understated for certain bulkier cores right now, as it tends to mandate more passive answers or multiple answers that can be coverage dependent such as Toxic Aegislash or Heatran. The overall impact of this mon is pretty high and I feel like it can contribute to the constrained feeling in the builder but I do believe that this mon is fine as it is and probably will be a lot more relaxed once Urshifu-SS is gone.

:sm/lopunny-mega:
I don't really think Lopunny-Mega actually got much better from the recent drops, but it's just showing that it was such an annoying matchup for offensive teams anyway. With Urshifu pushing more and more pressure on defensive teams it's no wonder this mon has risen to be such a star, but I do believe that Mega Lopunny does suffer with some pretty major competition for offense killers with Cinderace (and some more minor competition with Urshifu-Rapid-Strike). It may be interesting to see how this mon's moveset may evolve over the future with so many additions being created with this movepool change and the Scrappy buff this generation.

:sm/magearna:
I feel like Calm Mind + Pain Split Magearna deserves more mention in the current metagame. The current structure of defensive teams can make Magearna really hard to answer in the long run as a lot of teams currently only have passive Steel checks such as Ferrothorn or other, less durable checks like Rotom-Heat or a Ground-type like Garchomp, Landorus-Therian or Hippowdon. This can give Magearna a spectacular role in the long run against these teams as a stallbreaker. Aside from this, I don't really think Magearna has changed in National Dex a single bit as Stored Power sets are still far from viable in a metagame with Mega Metagross and Heatran in them and the other additions such as Encore and Trick haven't really been useful for Magearna as a lot of its checks are either Megas or Z-move carriers and Specs wasn't really too big of a set to begin with.

:sm/landorus-therian:
I feel like Landorus-Therian is somewhat underrated in the current metagame, but I do believe that it is only the defensive SR set that is worth talking about right now. Teams that lack a good Mega Metagross switchin tend to do brilliantly against Mega Metagross teams when this mon is thrown on and I tend to do just the same with my Landorus-T bulky offenses. A core utilizing Landorus-Therian, CM Split Magearna and Defog + Wisp Rotom-W actually handles the metagame really well and should probably be used more often as teams are pushed more and more in favour of offensive builds. However, I still do believe that it is outclassed in its role as a wallbreaker by Garchomp and is now starting to get more competition as a role compressing Choice Scarfer with Cinderace and Urshifu on the horizon.

:sm/rotom-wash:

Rotom-Wash is actually worth using a lot right now. Teams lacking a Tornadus-Therian check could really utilize Waterium Rotom-W more often as I feel that its role as a wallbreaker is worth bringing up due to the decline of Assault Vest Tangrowth and the rise of Toxapex cores which Rotom-W tends to prey on. I also feel like due to these changes it is the superior Rotom to Rotom-Heat right now as Rotom-Heat has to deal with Stealth Rock cutting into its HP if it is running a Z move and the usage of Garchomp and SpD Heatran make the ability to use its Z move very short lived. Rotom_W however has considerably better matchups against all that has been mentioned and with a rise in more offensive teams has a more appliable niche to teams with either the defensive Defog set or its offensive Waterium Z set.
 


I´ve been experimenting with Lash Out Tyranitar a lot on the ladder which is something I haven´t seen mentioned in this thread. I´m not sure if Showdown has it wrong but basically if the user gets any stat drop this move doubles to freaking 150 before STAB AND keeps it afterwards (unless you switch out). So idk what´s with the move saying it has to be on the same turn? But anyways this is so good for Tyranitar because it acts as a Pseudo Defiant. If you come in on Defog you basically get +2 attack. Landorus-T a common switch in to Tyranitar last generation can't come in on it anymore as even after the attack drop, it still gives Ttar essentially a free +1.

Lash Out also makes Tyranitar an even better stall breaker than before. You don't really need to run fire coverage or even Ice anymore. Lash Out works like bread and butter with Superpower. You always wanna run Superpower in this new meta because it hits many things trying to wall Ttar. The list includes, Ferrothorn, Kommo-O, Mega Lopunny, Skarmory. After using Superpower you get basically +1 attack. To demonstrate what I'm talking about here´s a replay. Skip to turn 12. The Skarmory comes in attempting to wall Ttar as I DD to +1 attack I then 2HKO with Superpower and Lash Out afterwards.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1137445036

Here´s another replay showing Lash Out´s power. The Lando T comes in on Ttar as I DD. I then DD again knowing I can tank a possible EQ and OHKO Lando afterwards at +1. I calced it and it OHKO'S even max def.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1137143068

Even max def Hippowdon doesn't comfortably wall Mega Ttar anymore because if it switches in on DD the combination of Superpower and Lash does minimum 80% and Hippo fails to OHKO back even after the def drop.

So Lash Out > Crunch always. At worst you´re only losing 5 bp.

EDIT: The move mechanics have apparently been fixed. So the move isn't supposed to work like what's shown in the replays. Sorry guys nothing to see here.
 
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So after looking over the aforementioned threatlist, I figured I would chime in on how I feel the metagame has developed with the new additions:


This is not as overcentralizing as people make it sound. While its(arguably) the best mega in the tier, its prone to being heavily chipped by Rocky Helmet users and also Intimidate mons, as it must run Jolly in order to get the most out of its speed tier. All of its most used moves have secondary effects, which does introduce an element of RNG to games. However, Scald is possibly the most RNG move of all time and every single bulky water type gets it,allowing them to potentially cripple mons they really have no business staying in on; I still don't see anyone talking about how it needs a ban. Maybe because its used mainly on defensive mons? This being in the tier does make it quite difficult to justify using Clefable on a team, and it also can put Toxapex on the backfoot as well. Thats not exactly a bad thing though, as it does make games more offensive.


Very dangerous mon due to its newfound Intimidate immunity, blistering speed and potent STAB combo thats not walled at all by Aegislash thanks to its ability.I personally didnt think Scrappy needed a buff as it was already a great ability, but w/e. However, this cannot hit bulky waters anywhere near as hard as Metagross, meaning that although its a great mon against offense, it tends to be a little too matchup reliant to be considered reliable, especially with the prevalence of stall and semi stall on the ladder. Speaking of stall..

Urshifu: A very powerful mon against defensive teams, as Unseen Fist allows it to destroy Protect and Baneful Bunker spam. Forms a great physical core with Metagross, as Wicked Blow obliterates mons that would hope 1v1 Megagross such as Slowbro, Alolomola etc. However, it does have quite a bit of offensive counterplay. Tornadus outspeeds it and OHKOs as it needs a band to achieve the impressive numbers that everyone is talking about, and its rather awkward speed tier leaves it coming up short against a large portion of the offensive metagame, most notably Greninja, who, despite its 4x dark resistance, it cannot face due to its atrocious special bulk. I dont see this mon as a problem; its mainly an incredibly strong wallbreaker rather than something that can ravage the tier without anything forcing it out.



We all know what this does. Despite its extreme power for a choice scarf user, this is not the harbinger of death that people would like to say it is. Its extreme vulnerability to Stealth Rock means that you must keep rocks off your side of the field in order for it to actually be able to play like it wants, and the two main defoggers, Fini and Tornadus, share a notable weakness to electric type attacks. Considering that most teams only run one defogger and they generally tend to be quite passive, this means that G-Darm really takes up two teamslots if it wants to use its full potential. It has very mediocre speed for a scarfer, meaning that its quite easy to chip down to the point where it can only force something out one time. U-Turning into teammates sounds great on paper, but when you're already taking 25% from rocks and then possibly another 16% from Helmet, its mileage is quite low in actuality.


Always good for one KO. Substitute is very dangerous against passive mons, but again, thats the risk you take if you choose to run things like Pex, Chansey etc. However, once it burns its Z Move its pretty mediocre. Unless it gets multiple boosts under its belt Dragon Darts is not OHKOing anything, and Phantom Force is quite unreliable. Dark types such as bulky Mega Ttar and Bisharp also have to be sufficiently weakened for this to be able to even grab the dance in the first place.



Forms an amazing offensive core with Megagross.However, I dont consider any special attacker without a boosting move to be truly broken, as Chansey easily walls any special attacker not named Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound. This is also walled quite easily by Tapu Fini, which is not exactly an uncommon mon, so its not like this is going to win the game on its own.




This mon will only seem broken if you run slower teams. Its shockingly weak when faced with a water immunity, and its atrocious speed means that anything offensive outspeeds the banded variant of this, which is really the only set you should run. Excellent defensive typing means that it doesnt have very many weaknesses, but the ones it does have will easily OHKO.
If youre relying on Hippo+Pex to wall the entirety of the metagame, thats just not realistic... I look at it like this. Chansey constricts teambuilding in the sense that offensive teams can't just rely on special attackers as they would be infinitely walled. Does that make it overcentralizing? Cinderace runs ZHB on its Bulk Up sets pretty much solely for Toxapex, as if it didn't exist, its Fire/Fighting/Poison coverage would pretty much hit everything neutrally. Do we need to suspect Pex now? All the mons on that threatlist(I had to chuckle when I saw Garchomp, like its not 2 million things that can outspeed it and force it out now) have great offensive counterplay. They just dont have a ton of defensive counterplay, and honestly they shouldn't, as if a wallbreaker has 30 mons in the tier that can come in and tank 3-4 hits from it, then it obviously does not belong in the OU Tier.
 
This is not as overcentralizing as people make it sound. While its(arguably) the best mega in the tier, its prone to being heavily chipped by Rocky Helmet users and also Intimidate mons, as it must run Jolly in order to get the most out of its speed tier. All of its most used moves have secondary effects, which does introduce an element of RNG to games. However, Scald is possibly the most RNG move of all time and every single bulky water type gets it,allowing them to potentially cripple mons they really have no business staying in on; I still don't see anyone talking about how it needs a ban. Maybe because its used mainly on defensive mons? This being in the tier does make it quite difficult to justify using Clefable on a team, and it also can put Toxapex on the backfoot as well. Thats not exactly a bad thing though, as it does make games more offensive.
This is just hilariously inaccurate. So you start off by stating it's not overcentralising, and then your recommended counterplay is Rocky Helmet users and Intimidate users.
List of viable Pokemon that run Intimidate: Lando-T, Mawile pre-Mega. (Gyarados and Salamance rely on Moxie.)
Nice. Oh and Mawile doesn't check Mega Metagross and is just bad, and Lando-T only checks it if it has already Mega Evolved (because Clear Body is a thing).
Oh and every Rocky Helmet user has to able to take 2 hits and live to be effective (spoiler: lots of them can't). Oh and that's assuming Mega Metagross doesn't just Toxic them, switch out and laugh, inevitably beating them later.
Then you go ahead and compare Mega Metagross haxxing past counters to Toxapex burning things with Scald???? Question: if Scald burns a mon, does that player lose? Answer: No. If Meteor Mash raises Mega Gross's Attack allowing it to KO its counter do you lose? Quite probably. Entire games can and do come down to Mega Gross's RNG-heavy mid-accuracy moves. Entire games have never hinged on a Scald burn.
Oh and we already had a suspect test for this thing, and the only reason it's not banned is a technicality about people who didn't vote.
Very dangerous mon due to its newfound Intimidate immunity, blistering speed and potent STAB combo thats not walled at all by Aegislash thanks to its ability.I personally didnt think Scrappy needed a buff as it was already a great ability, but w/e. However, this cannot hit bulky waters anywhere near as hard as Metagross, meaning that although its a great mon against offense, it tends to be a little too matchup reliant to be considered reliable, especially with the prevalence of stall and semi stall on the ladder. Speaking of stall..
If you read the original post, you'll learn all about how Mega Lop's newfound U-turn access lets it bait in these bulky Waters to be fodder for Specs Kyurem and other powerful wallbreakers.
Urshifu: A very powerful mon against defensive teams, as Unseen Fist allows it to destroy Protect and Baneful Bunker spam. Forms a great physical core with Metagross, as Wicked Blow obliterates mons that would hope 1v1 Megagross such as Slowbro, Alolomola etc. However, it does have quite a bit of offensive counterplay. Tornadus outspeeds it and OHKOs as it needs a band to achieve the impressive numbers that everyone is talking about, and its rather awkward speed tier leaves it coming up short against a large portion of the offensive metagame, most notably Greninja, who, despite its 4x dark resistance, it cannot face due to its atrocious special bulk. I dont see this mon as a problem; its mainly an incredibly strong wallbreaker rather than something that can ravage the tier without anything forcing it out.
You talk about all these mons that can force it out. How many of them can switch into it? Try none. So to force it out, you first have to sac/cripple a mon. And let's not forget it can just U-turn for momentum. Very healthy.
We all know what this does. Despite its extreme power for a choice scarf user, this is not the harbinger of death that people would like to say it is. Its extreme vulnerability to Stealth Rock means that you must keep rocks off your side of the field in order for it to actually be able to play like it wants, and the two main defoggers, Fini and Tornadus, share a notable weakness to electric type attacks. Considering that most teams only run one defogger and they generally tend to be quite passive, this means that G-Darm really takes up two teamslots if it wants to use its full potential. It has very mediocre speed for a scarfer, meaning that its quite easy to chip down to the point where it can only force something out one time. U-Turning into teammates sounds great on paper, but when you're already taking 25% from rocks and then possibly another 16% from Helmet, its mileage is quite low in actuality.
Lol. Ok. Running Tornadus-T is clearly such a strain on your teambuilding when it's the best Defogger in the metagame, impossible to wear down, has bags of utility and has a massive Hurricane and Taunt to stallbreak. Running Tapu Fini is clearly such a strain on your teambuilding when it soft checks basically the entire game and can also stallbreak. Sure. You're also oddly silent on the subject of Defog Lando-T and Rapid Spin Excadrill, because that would contradict your point wouldn't it.
Always good for one KO. Substitute is very dangerous against passive mons, but again, thats the risk you take if you choose to run things like Pex, Chansey etc. However, once it burns its Z Move its pretty mediocre. Unless it gets multiple boosts under its belt Dragon Darts is not OHKOing anything, and Phantom Force is quite unreliable. Dark types such as bulky Mega Ttar and Bisharp also have to be sufficiently weakened for this to be able to even grab the dance in the first place.
If you're getting only one kill with this, you're playing it wrong. Dragapult is a lategame sweeper that sets up once its checks are removed or crippled. What sets it apart from other lategame cleaners is its total lack of offensive counterplay and its checks being easy to wear down. Also, love this:
Substitute is very dangerous against passive mons, but again, thats the risk you take if you choose to run things like Pex, Chansey etc.
However, I dont consider any special attacker without a boosting move to be truly broken, as Chansey easily walls any special attacker
However, this cannot hit bulky waters anywhere near as hard as Metagross, meaning that although its a great mon against offense, it tends to be a little too matchup reliant to be considered reliable, especially with the prevalence of stall and semi stall on the ladder
Hmmm.
orms an amazing offensive core with Megagross.However, I dont consider any special attacker without a boosting move to be truly broken, as Chansey easily walls any special attacker not named Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound. This is also walled quite easily by Tapu Fini, which is not exactly an uncommon mon, so its not like this is going to win the game on its own.
"Run Chansey on every team and this is not an issue". And Spikes are a thing so Chansey is getting punished lategame, and Fini is getting brutalized due to its lack of recovery.
This mon will only seem broken if you run slower teams. Its shockingly weak when faced with a water immunity, and its atrocious speed means that anything offensive outspeeds the banded variant of this, which is really the only set you should run. Excellent defensive typing means that it doesnt have very many weaknesses, but the ones it does have will easily OHKO.
...
This mon will only seem broken if you run slower teams.
especially with the prevalence of stall and semi stall on the ladder.
With that out the way, count the number of viable mons immune to Water. The answer is 1, Gastrodon. And now you know why stall/semistall is so prevalent, because its the only team structure mon on which Gastrodon actually fits. Also the Scarf set 6-0s offense so you guess the item wrong you ded. I have no idea why you think its defences are even relevant to the discussion.
f youre relying on Hippo+Pex to wall the entirety of the metagame, thats just not realistic...
The fact we have to run 4-6 mon defensive cores to not just lose to these mons should suggest there is an issue with the metagame.
I look at it like this. Chansey constricts teambuilding in the sense that offensive teams can't just rely on special attackers as they would be infinitely walled. Does that make it overcentralizing?
No, because Chansey has boundless amounts of counterplay and many ways to lure/cripple it or otherwise exploit its general passivity (Psyshock, Knock Off, Trick, Substitute and more). You're also comparing having to run 1 mon/move of your choice to hit a given wall to having to run multiple predetermined mons from a pool of 6 or so to deal with threats like Mega Gross and Garm.
Cinderace runs ZHB on its Bulk Up sets pretty much solely for Toxapex, as if it didn't exist, its Fire/Fighting/Poison coverage would pretty much hit everything neutrally. Do we need to suspect Pex now?
This is utterly absurd. I don't know how to respond to this because the difference is obvious. Either give up one moveslot to always beat Pex, or give up two teamslots to possibly beat most variants of Mega Metagross. Uhhh.
All the mons on that threatlist(I had to chuckle when I saw Garchomp, like its not 2 million things that can outspeed it and force it out now) have great offensive counterplay.
Uhhh. Mega Lop. And their offensive counterplay is not what this discussion is about. You don't win games with offensive counterplay. Offensive counterplay is called "revenge killing" for a reason. (And Garchomp is on that list because teams don't have the space to run its checks because they have to use multiple to deal with Mega Gross and so on).
They just dont have a ton of defensive counterplay, and honestly they shouldn't, as if a wallbreaker has 30 mons in the tier that can come in and tank 3-4 hits from it, then it obviously does not belong in the OU Tier.
Agreed, but is it too much to ask to have 3 mons that reliably even take 2 hits from these monstrosities regardless of set? I think your whole argument is based on handwaving, untruths and false equivalences. You repeatedly contradict yourself by saying "X mons are only broken if you run overly passive teams" and "there are plenty of walls that deal with Y mons and them being passive doesn't matter". You make false claims like "Intimidate is a good answer to Mega Gross" and fail to mention important aspects of these mons like Mega Lop having U-turn now. Sure.
 
This is just hilariously inaccurate. So you start off by stating it's not overcentralising, and then your recommended counterplay is Rocky Helmet users and Intimidate users.
List of viable Pokemon that run Intimidate: Lando-T, Mawile pre-Mega. (Gyarados and Salamance rely on Moxie.)
Nice. Oh and Mawile doesn't check Mega Metagross and is just bad, and Lando-T only checks it if it has already Mega Evolved (because Clear Body is a thing).
Oh and every Rocky Helmet user has to able to take 2 hits and live to be effective (spoiler: lots of them can't). Oh and that's assuming Mega Metagross doesn't just Toxic them, switch out and laugh, inevitably beating them later.
Running toxic on Megagross hilariously neuters its coverage, as it already has a very mediocre STAB combination. Also, my favorite defensive mon is actually Rocky Helmet Lando-T, which is probably why I've never had a problem with Metagross in the tier. Some calcs
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 108-127 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 240-284 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then you have RH Tang and Bro who get a massive amount of recovery just for switching out, all while chipping Gross down just by staying in. So lets be realistic, its not fair for them to be able to live 3-4 hits and just switch out and recover off everything while Megagross just lost over half its HP.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 144-170 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Then you go ahead and compare Mega Metagross haxxing past counters to Toxapex burning things with Scald???? Question: if Scald burns a mon, does that player lose? Answer: No. If Meteor Mash raises Mega Gross's Attack allowing it to KO its counter do you lose? Quite probably. Entire games can and do come down to Mega Gross's RNG-heavy mid-accuracy moves. Entire games have never hinged on a Scald burn.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ru-38529 Yeah unless you have a team full of physical wallbreakers, your one strongest breaker getting burned randomly could mean GG, especially against a semi-stall or stall team.
Oh and we already had a suspect test for this thing, and the only reason it's not banned is a technicality about people who didn't vote.

If you read the original post, you'll learn all about how Mega Lop's newfound U-turn access lets it bait in these bulky Waters to be fodder for Specs Kyurem and other powerful wallbreakers.
Ok, and? U-Turning into something that can smash your check is nothing new to pokemon. Kyurem is really only good against those bulky waters tbh, which historically have had very little that can immediately pressure them due to their numerous resistances and only 2 weaknesses. So it actually takes pressure off the teambuilder as now you do not have to run an offensive electric type(who are naturally frail) or grass(resisted by 7 types, so..) on every team in order to make headway against them.
You talk about all these mons that can force it out. How many of them can switch into it? Try none. So to force it out, you first have to sac/cripple a mon. And let's not forget it can just U-turn for momentum. Very healthy.
How many mons could switch into Gen 4 Banded Tar? Exactly. A (relatively) slow wallbreaker should not have many things that can just come in on it and say hello, because if it did what would be the point of running it?
Lol. Ok. Running Tornadus-T is clearly such a strain on your teambuilding when it's the best Defogger in the metagame, impossible to wear down, has bags of utility and has a massive Hurricane and Taunt to stallbreak. Running Tapu Fini is clearly such a strain on your teambuilding when it soft checks basically the entire game and can also stallbreak. Sure. You're also oddly silent on the subject of Defog Lando-T and Rapid Spin Excadrill, because that would contradict your point wouldn't it.
Like I said, my favorite Defogger actually is Landorus-T. I didnt want to mention it though, because I know someone would come in complaining that its unviable because of the presence of G-Darm. Lets not kid ourselves, Rapid Spin Drill really on fits on HO teams w a sash. Its weak to multiple forms of priority, slow, and switching Dragapult in on a predicted spin means a dead Excadrill. Theres a reason Defog is considered to be more viable than spin. And as far as Tornadus...something that gets OHKOd by any type its weak to coming off of a decent Sp Atk or Atk stat and STAB means its far from a defensive juggernaut. So if Fini softchecks the entire game, then why is having Kyurem in the tier a problem? We shouldn't have anything that can break past walls?

If you're getting only one kill with this, you're playing it wrong. Dragapult is a lategame sweeper that sets up once its checks are removed or crippled. What sets it apart from other lategame cleaners is its total lack of offensive counterplay and its checks being easy to wear down. Also, love this:
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So if thats the strongest attack it can fire off, what is it going to do when it burns its Z Move? Lets not forget that running Adamant means it loses out on its great speed tier, leaving it quite vulnerable to Lopunny. Volcarona is another terrifying late game sweeper(especially with HDB) but its not considered broken. Offensive counterplay against Dragapult is basically any relevant scarfer(except Dracovish, which is not a good all purpose scarfer due to its awful speed tier) coming in on a U-Turn and forcing it out. DD TTar was a terrifying late game sweeper in ADV, but it still takes some positioning to set up. Its not like Drag is going to come in on turn 4 and sweep your whole team. As far as its checks being easy to wear down, thats really just a result of its offensive typing rather than it having an amazing movepool or offensive stats(other than its speed obviously).

Hmmm.

"Run Chansey on every team and this is not an issue". And Spikes are a thing so Chansey is getting punished lategame, and Fini is getting brutalized due to its lack of recovery.

...


With that out the way, count the number of vs immune to Water. The answer is 1, Gastrodon. And now you know why stall/semistall is so prevalent, because its the only team structure mon on which Gastrodon actually fits. Also the Scarf set 6-0s offense so you guess the item wrong you ded. I have no idea why you think its defences are even relevant to the discussion.

Therein lies the problem.
The banded Hoopa team that you have probably seen on the ladder( I sent it to pokeaim and now Ive faced many mirror matchups lol) used to struggle heavily with rain. Then I decided that I would toss Volcanion onto my team, a bulky Substitute variant. Now remember, Volc is very low on the viability rankings..however, for my specific team, it was pretty much exactly what I needed. Just because something is not high on the viability rankings does not mean its not viable on your specific team. People just want to run the same Hippo/Pex/Fini cores and then groan about mons who were barely cutting it in UU last gen like Kyurem(and lets be real, the addition of Freeze-Dry would not have catapulted it from UU to OU stardom overnight.) Now if I hadnt been creative and instead went to the viability rankings, I wouldve just tossed Gastro on my team and then came on here and complained when it was getting overwhelmed.

The fact we have to run 4-6 mon defensive cores to not just lose to these mons should suggest there is an issue with the metagame.
4-6 Defensive mons is not a defensive core, its a defensive team. Like I said, the problem is people want to run mons that are easily taken advantage of like alolomola, tang, slowbro etc and then complain that they cant wall everything. I dont know how many teams Ive seen that are just Hippo or Gliscor+Pex/Fini+ Chansey and then complain when Urshifu just killed half your team.
No, because Chansey has boundless amounts of counterplay and many ways to lure/cripple it or otherwise exploit its general passivity (Psyshock, Knock Off, Trick, Substitute and more). You're also comparing having to run 1 mon/move of your choice to hit a given wall to having to run multiple predetermined mons from a pool of 6 or so to deal with threats like Mega Gross and Garm.

This is utterly absurd. I don't know how to respond to this because the difference is obvious. Either give up one moveslot to always beat Pex, or give up two teamslots to possibly beat most variants of Mega Metagross. Uhhh.
Rocky Helmet Tang?
Uhhh. Mega Lop. And their offensive counterplay is not what this discussion is about. You don't win games with offensive counterplay. Offensive counterplay is called "revenge killing" for a reason. (And Garchomp is on that list because teams don't have the space to run its checks because they have to use multiple to deal with Mega Gross and so on).
Again, RH Tang checks both of them. I know if it gets an SD then it can blow Tang back w Devastating Drake. Thats actually the whole point of Z moves..taking out a key wall so that offensive teams can make progress, because if they didnt exist, games w regenerator mons involved would take MUCH longer. Letting Garchomp come in for free and grab an SD and then attack can easily be prevented by any pokemon that can outspeed it and hit it with a super effective or very strong move(the list of these are huge). Overall, that list is pretty much complaining about any mon with an offensive presence in the tier.
Agreed, but is it too much to ask to have 3 mons that reliably even take 2 hits from these monstrosities regardless of set? I think your whole argument is based on handwaving, untruths and false equivalences. You repeatedly contradict yourself by saying "X mons are only broken if you run overly passive teams" and "there are plenty of walls that deal with Y mons and them being passive doesn't matter". You make false claims like "Intimidate is a good answer to Mega Gross" and fail to mention important aspects of these mons like Mega Lop having U-turn now. Sure.

Based off the calcs I presented, I think it can be summed up that your argument is full of fallacies. You fail to mention how one of the most common defensive mons in the game(RH Tang) can easily take multiple hits from most sets. Now if a player throws on a crazy move and catches you off guard, then that does not speak to the mon being broken, but rather the player being inventive. Reliably taking two hits from any set means that the offensive mon must have a pretty shallow movepool. Now granted, you can have mons who have a shallow movepool and are still offensive terrors(Dracovish lol) but lets not pretend that many offensive juggernauts have historically had a huge movepool. Gen 5 Hydreigon was considered to have no true counters due to its massive movepool, but it was not overpowered whatsoever due to its middling speed. Its fine if people want a more defensive metagame, but Id just prefer that they say that instead of insinuating that anything with over 100 speed and attack is broken.
 
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Jho

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These pseudo ad-hominem arguments and back and forths have got to stop, they are massively derailing the thread and were a huge problem in the previous metagame discussion thread. The OP specifically says we aren't going to be as lenient in this iteration. I just want to make it clear that devolving disagreements on the state of the meta into these arguments or trying to undermine someones arguments without justifications will be deleted and possibly infracted. End of.

------------------------

To try and provoke some more discussion on the state of the metagame - I have been having a lot of success with Stall recently and I honestly think it is probably the most consistent archetype of build right now, which could be concerning and definitely speaks to the state of the metagame. Noneoftheless heres some cool things I've been using on some (Semi)Stall builds on the ladder.

:ss/Clefable:
Clefable has really picked up again as its the only really consistent defensive answer to Urshifu - I find Tapu Fini's lack of recovery to be much more punishing when trying to use it to check Urshifu personally and think Clef does the job so much better. It fits on stall super easily as it can fill many different roles from win condition with Calm Mind sets, to checking a lot of the HO picks that have been cropping up, such as Hawlucha, with Unaware sets.

:clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Protect

:clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
- Knock Off

:ss/zapdos:
Zapdos is the most consistent check to Tornadus-T in the metagame and also checks a handfull of other prominent Pokemon in the metagame right now, such as Mega Scizor, Rillaboom, and Kartana. Honestly being a consistent check to Torn right now is enough to make Zapdos extremely useful but offering a solid answer to such Pokemon as those mentioned above, which usually have decent matchups against stall, as well as offering hazard removal makes it a very solid pick. It can struggle to fit HP Ice very often though, so its often important to pair it with Pokemon which check the SD Ground-types, such as Curse Qaugsire for example

:zapdos:
Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Defog

:ss/altaria-mega:
I'm mad this thing is viable I hate it so much but the amount of role compression it offers is insane. It gives teams a solid answer to Urshifu and Ash Greninja in 1 slot, and also gives team valuable utility in the form of Defog and Heal Bell. I ended up making a ev spread for this thing that lets it take 2 Ash Greninja pumps, as well as an Urshifu Poison Jab after rocks. The speed investment allows it to outpace standard 88 speed Mega Tyranitar. Its quite an interesting pick right now although it really doesnt like Mega Metagross, however, Mega Meta cant really switch in due to fear of a Body Slam paralysis so at least theres that.

:altaria-mega:
Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 112 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Slam
- Roost
- Defog / Earthquake
- Heal Bell

Just a few quick thoughts so this post isnt all doom and gloom, and I am sorry for advocating stall but I really think its the best way to play this metagame currently as balance can often struggle to fit sufficient checks to all of the prominent threats without giving up something important, like hazard removal, for example
 
I have to agree with Jho regarding Stall being the best archetype (not that I really like Stall but what're ya gonna do about it). Here's a core I've been having success with:

:sm/Alomomola: + :sm/Tangrowth:

Paste: https://pokepast.es/3e745faf416bd5c0

HoodedZack originally came up with this core as Alomomola + AV Tang, but since Chansey already covers everything AV Tang does and much more on Stall, I decided to test it out as both being Phys. Def and it's actually surprisingly good. Both Pokemon relieve pressure off each other when it comes to checking stuff like Mega Metagross and Dracovish, and Tang can protect Mola from mons like Rilla and Kartana while Mola handles stuff like G-Darm and Zard X rather well. The two can also somewhat pivot into Urshifu thanks to Regenerator and chip it down with Helmet and switch out to either each other or a teammate like Unaware Clefable. Double Helmet is mostly my preference, but Leftovers does give Mola a lot more staying power without having to rely on Regen and WishTect as much. Tang runs Leech Seed in the paste since Stall doesn't care for sleep or paralysis and most of what Tang checks doesn't care for Toxic anyways. Plus, it helps pivot around Urshifu a bit better.
 
no,
Alright, after returning back to Showdown for a couple days, I figured I'd give my two cents on a few of the aforementioned threats:

:sm/metagross-mega:

For the love of god, just get rid of this already. It's proven itself to be way too unhealthy time and time again, and as was stated before, only stayed in the tier because of a technicality. Teams need multiple ways of preventing this from steamrolling them, which was already difficult enough prior to the DLC with all the other, less-broken threats that need to be accounted for. There's no reason this should be staying in the tier, especially since I think we can agree that this is the biggest problem in the tier.

Urshifu (doesn't have an available sprite yet)

Basically what everyone else already said; it has no consistent defensive answers.

:sm/greninja-ash:

Not nearly as broken. Pex, Fini, and the rising Gastrodon all take this on rather well, as well as Ferrothorn and rarer stuff like AV Tang. The only problem is that Mega Metagross pressures all of these rather well, making it the best Ash-Gren partner (besides maybe Rotom-H), hence why it tends to be harder to prepare for this.

:ss/Dracovish:

Despite this thing's many flaws, it's incredibly centralizing regardless of Band or Scarf. You pretty much HAVE to have a Phys. Def. Tang, Slowbro or Alomomola on your team or this mops the floor with you, and these mons are already pressured as is to handle other Pokemon like the aforementioned Metagross. Not to mention that Band occasionally sees play on rain teams as an alternative to Manaphy, which means these checks are 2HKOed on the switch (Scarf can achieve this as well with hazards). It's also worth noting that all Water Absorb mons that have a niche in the tier lack either the bulk or recovery for reliably answering Vish as well, making them coin tosses at best. Not exactly top priority, seeing as Bro, Tang, Gastro and Mola are all staples rn, but should definitely be looked at in the future.
Nonsense, stop tapping the ban hammer on things you don't like its very silly Mega Metagross is not a dangerous pokemon at all and never was I never understood its suspect test and ban in the first place nor did I ever found it fair especially when its a mon that is outsped by most threats maybe if Metagross was packing Shift Gear then I can understand but Its pointless to when it has Many Counter Like Gyarados/Mega Gyarados , Ash Greninja, and Tapu Fini after a scald burn , Cancerous-T's intimidate, Celestella, like come on now..
 
Figured I could drop off my thoughts, since I haven't seriously contributed to a public discussion in quite a bit, and felt obligated to at this point.

1592973248073.png


I don't want to dwell on the supercomputer long because the stance I have should be clear through my vote in the test and my discussions about it on Discord, but this Pokemon can hit the entire meta neutrally, at the very least, with all three of its four moveslots. Last move Toxic is the set that broke the camel's back, so to speak, since crippling all would-be checks for a lategame clean has just become that much easier. That set is not seen very often on ladder, but in higher level play, it is extremely fierce. Needless to say, it is nearly impossible to only run one check for Metagross, you should never leave the builder without one, maybe even two extra means of counterplay. This includes pivots for each move it can click, including the elusive fourth slot. A good stall / balance (I say stall first because the next Pokemon here renders balance deceased) should have a pivot and a switch in for Mash, ZHB, TPunch, Toxic, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, and the very rare Bullet Punch. This stress on the builder is quite frankly ridiculous, and it is a head scratcher as to how Metagross remained in the tier.

No Urshifu Sprite At The Moment

The release of this Pokemon doomed the balance playstyle. It is now very difficult, if not impossible, to be prepared for each high level threat in this meta with only six slots to fit Pokemon. Wicked Blow + CC have the NatDex folk scratching their heads, trying to innovate switchins to build with, the best of which were unironically Mega Altaria, Clefable, and Buzzwole, due to resisting both STABs and having recovery to continually check the menace that is Urshifu. The predominant playstyles in this meta at the present moment have shifted to stall and hyper offense, simply because balance cannot check everything that needs to be checked in six slots.

To be honest, I am not entirely sure if the broken aspect in this meta is Urshifu or Metagross, because they feel equally as restrictive in the builder and are both extremely dangerous Pokemon to try and check defensively as well as pivot into. The stress on the builder is ridiculous, to the point some of my opponents in the National Dex Spring Seasonal have made agreements to mutually not bring Urshifu or Mega Metagross.. Two players should not have to make an under the table agreement to avoid a flawed aspect of the meta in order to have fun and make the experience for spectators more enjoyable. That should be a clear indicator that the metagame as a whole has flaws that cannot be circumvented. I do, however, feel that these two Pokemon are getting the attention they deserve for having the single strike stranglehold on the metagame and I respect any decision made by the council, were something to occur.

edit: now over halfway to freeing Sevelon at 100 posts
 

Jordy

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Discord Leader
no,


Nonsense, stop tapping the ban hammer on things you don't like its very silly Mega Metagross is not a dangerous pokemon at all and never was I never understood its suspect test and ban in the first place nor did I ever found it fair especially when its a mon that is outsped by most threats maybe if Metagross was packing Shift Gear then I can understand but Its pointless to when it has Many Counter Like Gyarados/Mega Gyarados , Ash Greninja, and Tapu Fini after a scald burn , Cancerous-T's intimidate, Celestella, like come on now..
Nonsense, stop using misguided arguments.

To preface, the definition of a counter is "a Pokemon that can switch into x reliably, and will always deal with x." Out of the Pokemon that you mentioned, somehow, none fit this definition; Gyarados and Mega Gyarados are quickly worn down and really don't take too well to Thunder Punch, Ash-Greninja is too frail to directly switch in, Tapu Fini is actually Mega Metagross bait with Misty Terrain in play, which is most the time as it automatically sets it, Landorus-T is worn down really quickly, and Celesteela takes too much from Thunder Punch to be considered a reliable counter, especially when you take its lack of reliable recovery into account.

Anyways, a Pokemon does not need to be incredibly fast to be broken, which is also what you seem to be suggesting in this post. For proof, you can look at Necrozma-DM, Necrozma-DW, and Lunala, which are all pretty slow and absolutely broken. Sure, Mega Metagross is not quite on their level, but the point I'm making is that a Speed tier is not super defining when it comes to whether a Pokemon is broken or not; a Pokemon can have many offensive checks and still be within the realm of broken.

I don't wish to engage in this argument more than this, but I don't want this thread to be derailed by misguided arguments such as yours. It's clear that you are not familiar with the way tiering works and National Dex as a whole, and I would strongly suggest that you familiarize yourself with both before posting here again.
 

Latioswr

Banned deucer.
I hate ash gren + lopunny cores or mega meta + ash gren honestly people don't realize this offensive cores are broken not because the mega but because ash gren is so good at checking its other checks and ash gren checks are passive so they are easy to punish.

Lopunny is so fucking nasty people need to try rocky helmet reunicles it checks all fighting types bar urshifu.

Urshifu is nasty but people need to try more sets for example I have been running rest talk sets to check CB ttar and av drain punch for ash gren.

Mega meta on paper is a monster on practice you just teleport with slowbro its easy to wear down and mega meta needs some crazy predictions to get wins where I would say if that person outplayed me so hard then it wasn't mega meta fault but mine.

Meta isnt as unhealthy as people think.
 
These pseudo ad-hominem arguments and back and forths have got to stop, they are massively derailing the thread and were a huge problem in the previous metagame discussion thread. The OP specifically says we aren't going to be as lenient in this iteration. I just want to make it clear that devolving disagreements on the state of the meta into these arguments or trying to undermine someones arguments without justifications will be deleted and possibly infracted. End of.

------------------------

To try and provoke some more discussion on the state of the metagame - I have been having a lot of success with Stall recently and I honestly think it is probably the most consistent archetype of build right now, which could be concerning and definitely speaks to the state of the metagame. Noneoftheless heres some cool things I've been using on some (Semi)Stall builds on the ladder.

:ss/Clefable:
Clefable has really picked up again as its the only really consistent defensive answer to Urshifu - I find Tapu Fini's lack of recovery to be much more punishing when trying to use it to check Urshifu personally and think Clef does the job so much better. It fits on stall super easily as it can fill many different roles from win condition with Calm Mind sets, to checking a lot of the HO picks that have been cropping up, such as Hawlucha, with Unaware sets.

:clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Protect

:clefable:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Calm Mind
- Knock Off

:ss/zapdos:
Zapdos is the most consistent check to Tornadus-T in the metagame and also checks a handfull of other prominent Pokemon in the metagame right now, such as Mega Scizor, Rillaboom, and Kartana. Honestly being a consistent check to Torn right now is enough to make Zapdos extremely useful but offering a solid answer to such Pokemon as those mentioned above, which usually have decent matchups against stall, as well as offering hazard removal makes it a very solid pick. It can struggle to fit HP Ice very often though, so its often important to pair it with Pokemon which check the SD Ground-types, such as Curse Qaugsire for example

:zapdos:
Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Defog

:ss/altaria-mega:
I'm mad this thing is viable I hate it so much but the amount of role compression it offers is insane. It gives teams a solid answer to Urshifu and Ash Greninja in 1 slot, and also gives team valuable utility in the form of Defog and Heal Bell. I ended up making a ev spread for this thing that lets it take 2 Ash Greninja pumps, as well as an Urshifu Poison Jab after rocks. The speed investment allows it to outpace standard 88 speed Mega Tyranitar. Its quite an interesting pick right now although it really doesnt like Mega Metagross, however, Mega Meta cant really switch in due to fear of a Body Slam paralysis so at least theres that.

:altaria-mega:
Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 112 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Slam
- Roost
- Defog / Earthquake
- Heal Bell

Just a few quick thoughts so this post isnt all doom and gloom, and I am sorry for advocating stall but I really think its the best way to play this metagame currently as balance can often struggle to fit sufficient checks to all of the prominent threats without giving up something important, like hazard removal, for example
You know, Semi-Stall is actually a good and viable play style. My previous comments in this thread were about Pure Stall, while Semi-stall is absolutely viable.
With how scary many top tiers like Darmanitan-G, Mega Metagross, Urshifu and Ash-Greninja can be, having a team that has a strong back bone without just being sitting ducks is one of the most ideal.
If Ash-Greninja is banned (possibly Mega Lopunny, and this is an IF), things might shift to having faster teams as revenge killers become more viable alternatives for dealing with those strong wallbreakers.
But unlike Pure Stall, Semi-stall actually has a win condition, which is the biggest distinction between the 2 archetypes, and honestly it's kind of weird to call this archetype Semi-stall because of how different each team's goals are.

I also would like to give a bit of my opinion on new things I haven't mentioned

:Urshifu: Single-Strikes
Definitely a scary Pokemon to be against, but I feel is a bit overrated.
It's speed shows even more in this meta with many top tier threats being much faster naturally or practically faster (like Darmanitan-G that always wears scarf). Yeah, sure Urshifu-SS can wear scarf as well, but it stops being a 2HKO machine that people don't want to switch into if it does. Urshifu-SS is also pretty bad at switching in. That piss poor Special Bulk and having nasty weakesses doesn't do it any favors.
I think that's a good trade off. Be hard to switch into, can be forced out relatively easily, and find it hard to switch in.

:Heracross:
Ok, so one of Heracross's new moves is Spikes. I don't care how outclassed of an offensive spiker Heracross is to Ash-Greninja as this is pretty interesting and being a bulky physical attacker it will still stand out from Ash-Greninja.

:Weavile:
I have talked about Weavile on other forums, but not here. Triple Axel is easily one of the best Ice moves in the game, and Weavile has STAB Triple Axel off a 120 Atk. The only down sides being that it makes Contact (especially bad with it being contact 1 to 3 times), and each individual hit can miss. But when you have more power than Blizzard and accuracy (being 72.9% for all hit), while having a more forgiving miss mechanic, who can really complain?

:Marowak-Alola:
So everyone is hyped about Poltergeist on Marowak-A and other physical ghost types. I commented before how Golurk could finally have a niche with having a decent Ghost STAB now as a suicide lead, and I'm happy for Marowak too. But come one. Marowak-A already had a good Ghost STAB that was designed for it. It's not fair ;-;
 
:toxapex:
:Lopunny-Mega: I expect these 2 will be the top threats after the ban of our furious 5.
Would like to call in an F in the chat for rain. It is possible thundurus will see some more use as a rain defogger w/taunt and 100% accurate thunders however
 
Mega Lopunny actually kinda likes the Furious 5 being banned and likely will be the clear best Mega evolution and one of the best mons. Yes, it could check Ash Greninja and G-Darm with priority, blow back Urshifu with CC/HJK, do a boatload to Tornadus-T with Return, but all 5 also could do big damage or beat Mega Lopunny in the 1v1.

Now Mega Lopunny is even more free to U-Turn into the breaker(s) of your choice, while still being a fantastic anti-offense threat.

Interesting to see what the most prominent Defoggers/hazard removers will be now that Tornadus-T is gone. Yea it didn't always run Defog, but it was one of the best (especially with HDB). I think Mandibuzz might become more viable-while it could check Banded Urshifu not locked into CC, Mega Metagross, and G-Darm, a little bit of hax or a mispredicted switch-in means the Buzz couldn't do its job. Meanwhile, the likely rise in usage of stuff like Dragapult/Aegislash is good new for Mandibuzz (although both Dragapult and Aegislash can beat Mandibuzz with the right sets like Electrium-Z and SubToxic/Head Smash, respectively).
 
Here's my personal thoughts and predictions on the future of the meta after the big 5 ban:

:ss/Corviknight:

With Torn-T, Megagross, and Darm-G all gone, Corv now not only has less competition in the role of a Defogger, but also has a lot less pressure being put on it due to no longer being required to run Iron Defense. It's also worth noting that with Metagrossite and Urshifu banned, Psychic-types like Lele and the Lati Twins will likely rise in usage, which this can comfortably wall and abuse with U-turn.

:sm/tapu-fini:

With the 3 of the major mons that this checked in Urshifu, Ash-Gren, and Darm-G gone, there's a quite a bit less reason to use Fini over Pex or Corviknight in the bulky-water and Defogger departments respectively. It does still have the benefits of a stallbreaker and Heatran switchin however.

:sm/greninja: :sm/Ferrothorn: (:sm/heracross-mega:)

With Ash-Gren gone, Spikes Offense teams will likely resort to Protean Gren and Ferrothorn for their spiker. Mega Heracross also got access to Spikes in the recent DLC, but I don't really see it having the slot for the move, even with Torn-T gone.

:sm/pelipper: :sm/manaphy: :sm/Swampert-mega:

Rain losing it's two best teamslots is pretty detrimental, especially since Torn-T provided the near mandatory switchin for Kartana, and Ash-Gren could actually pressure stuff like Ferrothorn and Pex with Spikes + D-pulse spam. I personally see rain being reduced back to its gen 6 days of being a bit of a gimmick and plummeting in usage as a reflection of this.

:sm/lopunny-mega:

Mega Lopunny lost one of its best teammates in Ash-Gren, but absolutely loves its mega competition being gone, as well as some of its offensive counterplay. This will likely rise even more in usage along its other best teammates such as Kyurem, Hydreigon and Aegislash thanks to its U-turn shenanigans.


Any thoughts on this?
 
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Some of my thoughts

The Winners:
Reuniclus:

Reuniclus is probably one of the biggest beneficiaries of these bans as it had something against all 5, especially with Urshifu-Single-Strike.
Greninja and Megagross could wall Reuniclus pretty easily with its Acid Armor sets.
Torn-T would remove Toxic Spikes its teammates would set and prevent automatic Toxics.
Darmanitan-G just hits hard and can U-Turn on Reuniclus.
And of course Urshifu would reliably ignore Acid Armor boosts, hits it super effectively too, and would wall Reuniclus as well.
There are more benefits as well, like how Toxapex has more usability compared to Tapu Fini for bulky Water, something Reuniclus can prey on while not having to worry about Tapu Fini Defogging Toxic Spikes or Misty Terrain being ignored.
Toxapex is also generally pretty good alongside Reuniclus as well. Having Toxic, Toxic Spikes, being a good check to Volcarona and resisting Bug, being able to burn Pokemon with Scald, and can Haze opposing bulky set up sweepers too.

Hazard Controllers:

Hazard Controllers really benefit from their main competition being gone. This applies to most Hazard Controllers (Corviknight’s sprite needs to be smaller. smh), with a few exceptions I’ll say later.
Hazard Controllers also like the removal of such offensive momentum being gone, letting themselves remove/prevent hazards much easier. There isn’t much else to say either but they definitely benefit a lot.

Sand teams (especially Tyranitar):

Sand in general benefits Ash-Greninja’s removal. Being pretty important for Rain teams, and generally just being a huge pain as it hits the Sand Setters pretty hard with Specs Hydro Pump and can ignore Excadrill’s Sand Rush with Water Shuriken.
Tyranitar especially benefits the recent bans since like Reuniclus, it didn’t appreciate those 5 Pokemon either (maybe to a lesser extent however). Being Slow, weak to Hydro Pump, Meteor Mash, Close Combat, Focus Blast, Earthquake, and U-turn, as well as the ease of which Tornadus-T could Defog its Stealth Rock and how Urshifu could switch safely into Tyranitar, July isn’t looking as bad for Short Godzilla.

Weavile:

There were some losses for Weavile. Being a fast Ice type that also hits hard meant that it could prey on Tornadus-T as even it could outspeed Torn, on top of benefitting from Tornadus-T’s defogs. Weavile would also be amazing at revenge killing Urshifu as Banded Low Kick would do a minimum of 90.3%.
Weavile makes up for this with Galarian Darmanitan’s departure as a competing Ice Type, Mega Metagross not being around to tank every single hit and easily KO Weavile with Bullet Punch, and would no longer be revenge killed by Ash-Greninja.
Also like everyone has said, Psychic and Ghost types will be much more common, and Weavile is a huge threat to them with its 125 Speed matching Neutral Nature Dragapult, Knock Off, and Pursuit.
Weavile still has Mega Lopunny to worry about, but that isn’t as much of an issue as before since Mega Lopunny doesn’t have 5 of the most lethal mons to back it up especially Ash-Greninja, making it easier to bring in physical walls.
Weavile also doesn’t really mind some of the other Pokemon that will be more viable like Melmetal as +2 Low Kick does more than 3/4ths even without Life Orb.

Melmetal and Mega Mawile:

Speaking of Melmetal, It’s now not just a niche only found on Defensive teams. Thanks to Mega Metagross being gone, it can’t really be Discount Megagross any more.
Not only that, but Urshifu, Darmanitan-G, and Ash-Greninja could do a ton to Melmetal and outright OHKO it with the right coverage and set. Urshifu and Ash-Greninja especially as they both bypassed Melmetal’s Acid Armor (Wicked Blow (which 2HKOs 244 HP Melmetal) and hitting it Specially).
Mega Mawile also benefits in a similar way. While not often using its own Steel STABs, it prefers not to have its Play Rough or to be ripped in half by those faster threats.

Urshifu Water, Urshifu Rock, and Urshifu Jotaro:
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

Urshifu’s other form and Urshifu’s “other forms” now don’t have to compete with Urshifu-Single-Strike anymore and the latter 2 won’t be obliterated by Urshifu.
While Rapid Strikes isn’t too happy with Ash-Greninja and Darmanitan-G being gone thanks to its typing and Scarf set (which was underrated even when Urshifu was still around), and Toxapex is more annoying for it than Tapu Fini, it still like Mega Metagross gone and its dark counter part.
Terrakion was actually pretty similar to Urshifu in power, and has its advantages like speed (one that was above the 100 base mark), special bulk, not being walled by Fairies, having Swords Dance, Stealth Rock, and Rock Tomb.
What made Terrakion much worse than Urshifu was Mega Metagross using Terrakion as toilet paper. It outspeeds it, resists Stone Edge, has great Physical Bulk, and its STABs are both Super Effective on it.
Also Terrakion lacks U-Turn and Unseen Fist too, something that allowed Urshifu to use when its checks would switch-in and would prevent scouting issues.
Pangoro is Urshifu-SS, but worse in nearly every way imaginable. Only having Parting Shot, Swords Dance, and better special bulk. But like with Melmetal, being a discount version of what currently is a banned Pokemon shows a lot potential. We all know that Fighting/Dark is pretty good offensively, and Dark in general being good offensively can show Pangoro rising up in the future as a pseudo Urshifu-SS. Choice Band, Close Combat, Darkest Lariat, Gunk Shot, and Parting Shot, you essentially have Urshifu again, but with worse Stats and you don’t bypass protect. You then have the option to use Sword Dance, Knock Off, Mold Breaker Taunt, Scrappy Close Combat, Iron Fist Drain Punch, and Toxic as well.

Other Psychic Types and Ghost types:

The 2 best Dark types are gone, which means these guys have more freedom in switching around. The new bans are especially good for psychic types as Mega Metagross would resist their STABs, and I already talked about Reuniclus, most of the points applying here as well.

The Pex:

Like what everyone else is saying, it’s easier to run the Pex now, without the 5 in the Meta now.

Protean Greninja:

While losing one of its best options is bad for Greninja as a whole, and there is less of a guessing factor to what Greninja will be, Protean Greninja will definitely be seeing far more usage in the future simply because a fast special attacker like Greninja is amazing as always.
It also doesn’t mind as much the Battle Bond ban making it less of a guess to what Greninja will be running since Greninja is already pretty diverse even without its Pseudo Mega, thanks to Protean giving STAB to all its moves and having an amazing movepool.

The Losers:

Mega Lopunny now holds the title of being the best Mega currently, but that’s like saying the current richest human in the world is better off because the former richest man in the world had died.
The duo of Mega Lopunny and Ash Greninja is lost until it gets tested for a drop.
Mega Lopunny doesn’t like the fact that enemies like Hippowdon and Toxapex can be run more often or how Sand Rush Excadrill no longer has to worry about Lopunny’s former partner’s Water Shuriken.
While Lopunny is still amazing, and is the best Mega, it only is so by technicality and it hurt by Ash-Greninja’s departure.

Rain Teams:

First Rillaboom was given a Grass Priority move to bypass Swift Swim, but now Rain has lost one of its best Pokemon in Ash-Greninja AND lost Tornadus-T as well. Two major Pokemon features on Rain teams, as well as Urshifu (Honestly Urshifu-Single-Strike was better on Rain ironically enough as it could be used to beat common Rain checks like Tangrowth and Toxapex).

Tapu Fini:

There is very little reason to use Tapu Fini now. It was primarily used for Greninja and Urshifu over other bulky waters, and now it being gone means Tapu Fini doesn’t have much reason to be used over regular Slowbro and Toxapex besides to Defog.

Skarmory:

This thing can’t catch a break huh? One of the few reasons you would use Skarmory over Corviknight as a Defogger is having a more powerful Body Press, which was useful against Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Darmanitan-G, and Urshifu. Now the latter 3 are banned. At least it still hits Mega Lopunny hard while not taking as much damage back.


Just like Tapu Fini, there isn’t much reason to use Mega Altaria anymore and Semi-Stall won’t be as required as before.

Mega Gyarados:

Mega Gyarados before could use Greninja, Darmanitan, and Urshifu as set up bait and was a decent Mega Metagross check thanks to its typing and regular Gyarados’s Intimidate.
Gyarados does somewhat benefit from a larger amount of Psychic and Ghost types, but finds it harder to do so than before. It’s more of a net loss than a net gain.


Volcarona:

With Megagross and Ash-Greninja gone, Volcarona’s checks are much more prominent, and it could beat all 5 of those banned Pokemon as well with after Quiver Dance as it would speed all 5 of them (including Scarf Darmamitan-G), and would hit them hard too.
It now also has to deal with Toxapex and Heatran, and fears Knock Off a bit more as the best Defogger is gone.
It also doesn’t help that Rock types like Terrakion and Tyranitar, as well as Sand Teams, are much better now.
It even loses with Rain teams being worse now as it could abuse the rain against them with Hurricane and its Flamethrower was still threatening against Ferrothorn in Rain.

Changed but still as viable as before:

Rillaboom:

Rillaboom no longer can prey on Ash-Greninja and Darmanitan-G and more, and Rain is less prominent, but Mega Metagross and Tornadus-T are less problems for Rillaboom as they are banned, and it can still be useful against Sand teams too. Rillaboom also kind of prefers being against Toxapex than Tapu Fini as it got to keep its Terrain boosting its Strong Wood Hammers, but Psychic Terrain will be more common to abuse that Psychic Power and Expanding Force.

Sun Teams:

It’s main competition shifted from Rain to Sand, which is slightly better. It did lose Tornadus-T but plenty of Defoggers still exist and Tornadus-T would have less accurate Hurricanes anyways. And it lost Mega Metagross to prey on as well.

Indifferent and hard to say:
Pretty much everything else that wasn’t mentioned.
 
Let's talk about the immediate effects of the metagame. With the leave of those 5 powerful mons, I have observed two contrasting phenomena occuring on the mid-high ladder, which happened to be largely the same as I predicted.

The first is that more players have started to experiment with stall. As the premier wallbreakers are gone now, stall would theoretically be harder to break than it was pre ban.

On the other hand, however, some other players have dropped their walls and are going for a slightly more offensive approach, as they think the walls are not necessary anymore.
dracovish.gif


While I tend to say this in every post, at times like this, players do have to give special attention to dracovish if they don't want to get wrecked.

As a dracovish user, this monster benefits from both reduced competition as a wallbreaker and the increasing popularity of offensive teams, which are easily swept by a banded dracovish in trick room.

I foretell that dracovish would soon rise in popularity, forcing teams to run the same walls as in the pre ban meta. Only then would the council realize how dracovish constrains teambuilding, how matchup dependent it is, and how it can still break through prepared teams, given the right support.
 
As a dracovish user, this monster benefits from both reduced competition as a wallbreaker and the increasing popularity of offensive teams, which are easily swept by a banded dracovish in trick room.
“It’s good in Trick Room”
Memes aside, why would you use Dracovish as a Trick Room abuser when Alolan Marowak exists? You get a boost to all your physical moves with Thick Club without the restriction of being Choice Locked, on top of being slower for Trick Room too.

The Damage output for both is often an OHKO anyways for most things
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 1064-1254 (312 - 367.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 570-672 (167.1 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 620-732 (181.8 - 214.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Marowak-A, you also have some Super Effective coverage to 2HKO Mega Slowbro.

If your intention is being Anti-Offense under Trick Room, Marowak-A can OHKO mostly everything Dracovish can, can OHKO/2HKO more things since it’s not relying on 1 water move, and won’t be “outsped” as often under Trick Room. Sure being weak to Sucker Punch may be bad, but at least Marowak-A resists Rillaboom’s Grassy Glide, the second strongest (immediate) priority move in the game.


As far as non-Trick Room goes, checks to Dracovish are a lot more natural.
People will use GrassFireWater cores regardless of Dracovish and one of Dracovish’s best partners in Ash-Greninja was banned too.
 
“It’s good in Trick Room”
Memes aside, why would you use Dracovish as a Trick Room abuser when Alolan Marowak exists? You get a boost to all your physical moves with Thick Club without the restriction of being Choice Locked, on top of being slower for Trick Room too.

The Damage output for both is often an OHKO anyways for most things
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 1064-1254 (312 - 367.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 570-672 (167.1 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 620-732 (181.8 - 214.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Marowak-A, you also have some Super Effective coverage to 2HKO Mega Slowbro.

If your intention is being Anti-Offense under Trick Room, Marowak-A can OHKO mostly everything Dracovish can, can OHKO/2HKO more things since it’s not relying on 1 water move, and won’t be “outsped” as often under Trick Room. Sure being weak to Sucker Punch may be bad, but at least Marowak-A resists Rillaboom’s Grassy Glide, the second strongest (immediate) priority move in the game.


As far as non-Trick Room goes, checks to Dracovish are a lot more natural.
People will use GrassFireWater cores regardless of Dracovish and one of Dracovish’s best partners in Ash-Greninja was banned too.
Cuddly, when something works, it works. At least I managed to sneak into top 20 on ladder using this trick room dracovish, with much less stress than I would have otherwise, if I were to use other teams. Anyways I believe I am not the only one abusing trick room vish anyways. Dracovish has far greater bulk and a much better typing compared to marowak, it is notably not scared away by opposing dracovish (could use magearna to destroy it later if it goes locked into outrage), which would otherwise potentially sweep entire trick room teams.

And even with a brave nature, its mid tier speed lets it function outside of trick room at times. There are mons that might sound wierd on paper but can devastate teams in practice, with brave dracovish being a shining example of it. You will never know unless you face one yourself.
 
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As a dracovish user, this monster benefits from both reduced competition as a wallbreaker and the increasing popularity of offensive teams, which are easily swept by a banded dracovish in trick room.
TBH, if Dracovish has to be on TR to be a consistent pick, I don't see the issue with it. It's when it's dominating balance V balance it's the issue.
People will use GrassFireWater cores regardless of Dracovish
This is my concern when people talk about Dracovish. These cores are Vish Food. I agree with the rest of what you said, but let's be clear on what Banded Vish is: It's Hoopa-U that doesn't need to predict. Against anything remotely fat it will always claim at least one kill. I'm not going down this rabbit hole again lest someone tells me Tapu Fini beats it... But let's be clear that Vish eats FWG for breakfast.

Anyway, usage stats are out again, and there's something I want to talk about.
1 Ruleset 2 Metas: National Dex on the ladder
It's pretty obvious from comparing the usage stats and the VR that there is a disconnect between how National Dex OU plays "in theory" (major quote unquote there, but you get what I mean) versus how it is actually played on the ladder.
| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 23.63042% | 32077 | 10.537%
| 2 | Heatran | 17.37060% | 19192 | 6.304%
| 3 | Clefable | 17.17471% | 19192 | 6.304%
| 4 | Greninja-Ash | 16.55841% | 37454 | 12.303%
| 5 | Ferrothorn | 16.24872% | 29346 | 9.640%
| 6 | Toxapex | 16.02350% | 23304 | 7.655%
| 7 | Magearna | 15.17267% | 18123 | 5.953%
| 8 | Dracovish | 13.65759% | 23378 | 7.679%
| 9 | Chansey | 13.38073% | 17452 | 5.733%
| 10 | Dragapult | 12.84534% | 34158 | 11.221%
| 11 | Tornadus-Therian | 12.16288% | 12367 | 4.062%
| 12 | Tapu Koko | 11.55714% | 21416 | 7.035%
| 13 | Zapdos | 11.43357% | 12802 | 4.205%
| 14 | Pelipper | 10.70325% | 12306 | 4.042%
| 15 | Urshifu | 10.65136% | 16525 | 5.428%
| 16 | Gliscor | 10.07293% | 21533 | 7.073%
| 17 | Metagross-Mega | 9.89423% | 21588 | 7.091%
| 18 | Garchomp | 9.72859% | 22270 | 7.315%
| 19 | Darmanitan-Galar | 9.63399% | 26098 | 8.573%
| 20 | Alomomola | 9.54350% | 3663 | 1.203%
| 21 | Lopunny-Mega | 9.18602% | 18915 | 6.213%
| 22 | Slowbro | 8.77845% | 11656 | 3.829%
| 23 | Tapu Fini | 8.76018% | 13336 | 4.381%
| 24 | Corviknight | 8.74344% | 18536 | 6.089%
| 25 | Swampert-Mega | 8.34616% | 12227 | 4.016%
For those unfamiliar to usage stats, the leftmost percentage is the weighted usage stat, using 1760 Elo. At the time of writing, there are 20 people on the ladder above this rating, with the ladder peak being 1926 Elo. We can thus assume with a high degree of confidence that these stats are an accurate representation of the high ladder. The middle number is the number of teams actually containing this Pokemon on the whole ladder. The rightmost percentage is the total unweighted usage. This is the usage rating for the whole ladder, without taking into account the position on the ladder the mon was used at. The key thing to note is the higher the weighted usage compared to the unweighted one, the more its usage was influenced by the top ladder. As an example, after weighting Alomomola had a 9.5% usage rating, but only has a 1.2% unweighted usage, which means most of its usage was in the top ladder.
Anyway, the first thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is Lando-T's continued dominance of the usage stats, despite many of its sets being declared outclassed. Was it the SD Z-Move sets that are still viable being used?
Items
| Rocky Helmet 28.769%
| Leftovers 22.351%
| Choice Scarf 19.725%
| Focus Sash 11.981%
| Flyinium Z 11.235%
| Rockium Z 2.662%
| Other 3.277%
Swords Dance 14.069%
It gets even more obvious that Lando-T is out of place when you examine its "Teammates" stat, ie: the list of Pokemon whose usage is substantially higher when considering only teams containing it. The percentage on the right is the amount their usage increases by.
| Tapu Koko +7.050%
| Hoopa-Unbound +6.328%
| Heatran +5.776%
| Doublade +5.699%
| Manectric-Mega +5.680%
| Mawile-Mega +4.853%
The almost completely outclassed Tapu Koko, the niche Hoopa-U and Mega Mawile together with the completely unfathomable Doublade and Mega Manectric all have much higher usage when paired with it.

Another thing that obviously stands out is the absence of Hydreigon and Kyurem, two of the best special breakers in the tier. Did they only just miss out?
| 60 | Gyarados-Mega | 2.52086% | 6108 | 2.006%
| 61 | Staraptor | 2.47067% | 7671 | 2.520%
| 62 | Kyurem | 2.35596% | 3422 | 1.124%
| 63 | Gastrodon | 2.34177% | 4004 | 1.315%
| 64 | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 2.30252% | 9468 | 3.110%
| 65 | Hydreigon | 2.25910% | 9871 | 3.243%
Staraptor has more usage than both. STARAPTOR. It should also be noted that Hydreigon's high unweighted usage means its actual high ladder usage is even lower than this.
Some other samples of the Nat Dex OU ladder: 70% of Clefables are Unaware, Spikes is on 33% of Ash-Greninja, 4% of Toxapex still run Shed Shell, Tapu Koko's most common items are Shuca Berry and Choice Specs, with 21% of Kokos running Defog. Gliscor's 5 most common moves are Earthquake, Toxic, Protect, Substitute and Roost, with Swords Dance and Stealth Rock getting 12% usage each.
So there can be only two possible conclusions.
  1. The forums have the format wrong, and the actual metagame is vastly different. (I doubt this greatly, we have some amazing people running the Nat Dex forums who are very good at the format, and the stats indicate things like Screens Koko are still being used.)
  2. The Nat Dex OU ladder sucks.
Making the, I think, natural assumption that it's not 1, the question is "How can we improve the quality of the Nat Dex ladder?" Judging by some of the content of the OU forums, many new National Dex players go straight to the OU forums instead of here. Many of them might not even notice this part of the forums. And judging by the RMTs I've looked at for National Dex, many of them are just dumping their team and leaving. So I think some new ideas are needed. How do we get the message out that just dumping a Gen 7 team is not the way to play Nat Dex? I'm aware that one issue the ladder has is it is used by people who want to play Nat Dex Monotype for instance. Would another ladder being added help this? Perhaps a rotational ladder of sorts, since people have been asking for a UU ladder as well. Anyway, I'm just throwing some ideas out. Anyone else got any suggestions?
 

Zneon

Scarlet Eyes
is a Live Chat Contributor
Alright, with those 5 out of the way. I want to go over what I feel really improved with all the bans. The winners aren't in any particular order so keep that in mind but I feel these Pokemon definitely got better from this in some capacity to trigger some discussion.

_ _

Winner #1: Offensive Steel-types


I feel Offensive Steel-types, especially these ones, are huge winners from the bans. Mega Metagross was arguably the single best Pokemon in the metagame and that alone kinda made the rest of them overshadowed, especially when you combine other titans like Urshifu and Galarian Darmanitan, it was pretty hard to fit them onto a team. With those out of the way along with other stuff like Ash Greninja, it gives them more of a chance to shine.


Mega Mawile is definitely a much better Pokemon now. I feel the biggest problem that Mega Mawile had was the fact that it was incredibly hard to justify for a mega slot over Mega Metagross given the fact that it is much slower and further easier to deal with. Now I feel it is much easier to put onto a team without it in the tier. It is easily one of the most powerful Pokemon in the metagame and can do so much work versus bulkier teams with SD sets or simply just going All-Out Attacker does so much work. Not to mention the fact that its typing and access to incredibly powerful priority in Sucker Punch to complement its ridiculous power allows it to threaten out Pokemon like Clefable, Dragapult and Mega Medicham or just simply knock them out. Definitely one of the best megas as of right now and probably benefited the most.

:aegislash:
Aegislash is something that I feel also benefits heavily from these bans. Aegislash had the problem of Dark spam being incredibly common, and Urshifu being in the tier just made things much worse as it was already hard to fit onto a team due to Ash Greninja and Hydreigon being everywhere. Now with both Urshifu and Ash Greninja gone, those are 2 Pokemon it doesn't have to worry about now, and while Hydreigon can definitely be problematic I still think Aegislash will still improve quite a bit. Its a very versatile Pokemon in what it can do, SubToxic, Choice Band, Choice Specs, SD + Z Move etc. You can bend it to whatever role you want on your team and it does it will because of its amazing stats and typing. Overall a great Pokemon that got much better with these shifts.

:magearna:
Magearna was already a great mon in my opinion and I feel its gotten significantly better. I feel CM sets are much better now and more easy to fit onto teams, I feel it was already pretty solid but now with less stuff that can immediately pressure CM Magearna and less things it needs to account for I feel teams will be more equipped to handle threats that can check it like Lando-T, Garchomp and Volcarona. I think Choice sets are better now and they are easily my favourite to use, Choice Specs in particular is amazing due to the pressure it gives by firing off Fleur Cannons with have very few switch ins or potentially crippling a wall with Trick. Magearna feels like an amazing Pokemon right now.

:kartana:
With no Tornadus-T, which was arguably its best check, I feel Kartana is much more threatening. SD sets still has no defensive counters as potential "counters" like Zapdos and Tangrowth can be blasted away by Normalium Z. Offensive checks are still plenty like Greninja and Mega Lopunny but Scarf Kartana is back to being a top tier scarf user in my opinion since with the lack of Tornadus-T, and potentially the decrease in usage of Tangrowth, I think its in a much better spot with being able to snowball late game.
_ _

Winner #2: Offensive Psychic-types



Offensive Psychic-types also got a huge buff from this. Now don't get me wrong, Steel-types getting so much better now definitely takes a hit for Psychic-types but I feel that they have definitely gotten better especially with Mega Metagross, Ash Gren and Urshifu gone its so much easier for them to be used in my opinion, especially these 2 have gotten buffed tremendously from this.

:medicham-mega:

Mega Medicham is a really good right now. It's an absurdly powerful Pokemon with a pretty solid speed tier and access to good priority in Fake Out. This Pokemon is ridiculously hard to switch into especially with great STABs and coverage in Thunder Punch and Ice Punch, not to mention the fact that its able to outspeed stuff like Rotom-H, Kyurem and Heatran which is amazing for it, along with the fact that with stuff like Tornadus-T, Mega Metagross and Ash Greninja being checks that it doesn't need to worry about anymore, it can just click its moves and get a kill each time it switches in. Overall I feel this mon will be great and definitely a top tier mega in my opinion.

:tapu-lele:
I feel Tapu Lele could definitely become better from these changes, I feel a lot was against it before the bans and it still could be the same considering how good Steel-types are right now and the value of putting one on your team. Though for Tapu Lele I think it is easier to use Scarf and Specs sets with the lack of Mega Metagross, which really hit its viability in a very negative way, but with that gone I can see it being much more comfortable in this metagame even if stuff like Aegislash and Magearna start to surge in viability.

_ _

Alright that does it for this post. I know there are probably more stuff that definitely gotten so much better from these changes but it will go over them in a future post, so I'm just going over what I feel to be the biggest winners of those changes.
 
Now that Metagross-Mega, Urshifu, Ash-Greninja, Tornadus-Therian and Darmanitan-Galar are out of Natdex, a lot is going to change and new pokemons that will emerge with great force. I have to admit that after the ban on the 5, the goal became a little healthier. However, there are still several threats present. one of them being more problematic than the others.




Dracovish. It is not the first time that they talk about this pokemon and it probably won't be the last.

It has two main sets, one with choise band and one with choise scarf. with Scarf he is faster than several pokemons, one of them lopunny-mega being the second fastest pokemon in Natdex. 409 may not seem like much, but it is enough that the only pokemon faster than that, with the exception of other scarfs, is Dragapult.

while with Choise Band he becomes an absurd wall destroyer, there is no safe entrance to it. any pokemon suffers from Dracovish, and there is no usable water immunity to guarantee this. its tufts have a hard time facing it.

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 164-193 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 233-274 (67.9 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 179-211 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 221-261 (41.3 - 48.8%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

as you can see, Choise band Dracovish has a great power and the situation only gets worse in the rain.

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth in Rain: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini in Rain: 349-411 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Rain: 269-317 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 237-279 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 332-391 (62.1 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Certainly, with the ban of 5 pokemon, Dracovish becomes even more popular and problematic than before. Maybe you can have a Suspect Test of this depending on how everything develops.
 

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