Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[HaloDragonX]

Maybe Mega Evolutions are okay, but I believe that Z-Moves are inherently unfair and give offensive Pokemon the ability to break past the Pokemon they shouldn't be able to. The best example is Normalium Z Giga Impact Kartana. Checks like Mega Venu and Beni that would normally hard wall Kart can get yeeted on the switch in. Another example is Flyinium Z Gyara and Lando. Its clear that neither of them were designed not to have a viable physical flying move in mind for a reason, but Flyinium Z is just a huge middle finger to that balance structure that I believe will be the next "cancer" after dynamax is gone.

Notice how Im kinda referring to last gen's meta? Its still apparent in gen 8; it is clear that the gen 8 pokemon were simply not designed with the intention to use Z moves, Soulblaze + Soul the most glaring example. Kommo O was never intended to exist with both moves in tandem. Thinking of a very possible future in NDOU where dynamax is gone, Hydreigon with Nasty Plot + Darkinium Z or Dragonium Z could become the next Naga. But when z moves were still canon, Hydreigon didn't get Nasty Plot. He didnt have any viable way of boosting afaik in gen 7 and he does now. Another example: Dragapult DD + Dragonium Z; Dragapult is balanced by somewhat middling offensive stats and a lack of a physical ghost move afaik. Z Moves alleviates this. Z Moves is a get out of jail card for any breaker and theyre seldom used at the moment only because mons with z moves can't dynamax; if/when dynamax is suspected I feel like the problem of Z moves will be more apparent and this could have disastrous consequences for the meta. Z moves were the main reason why gen 7 was so disliked and mons like Magearna, Lando-T, Kartana, and Torn were so oppressive.

Comparing Hydreigon with set-up + Z-move to Naga is unfair since Hydreigon doesn't have the ability to speed up after a KO like Naga.

Kommo-o should have a clause against having both of its signature moves.

I agree criticisms from Gen 7 (which was horribly balanced) do carry over, so I think those should really be dealt with more so than now things like people haven't really gotten to experience (assuming they aren't incredibly broken). Maybe we ban Dynamax and Z-moves? Maybe a few problems from Gen 7 need to be banned? I think NatDexOU needs to take a proactive approach to balance.

 

[UltraxBlade]

Most pokemon don't outspeed Dragapult and it doesn't have ghost moves to use to be blocked by normal types.

While I agree with you that Dragapult is still viable, saying it doesn’t use ghost moves is ignoring the fact that one of its best sets in regular OU right now is the sub-disable set, which runs Hex (a ghost type move) as its only attack. This does hurt that set’s viability, as it can’t do to things like Chansey what it does to all the passive non-normal types in gen 8: set up a sub, disable their one attack, burn them, and spam hex. It is immune to Chansey’s seismic toss and can sit behind a sub to dodge toxic, but even then it lets Chansey set up rocks on you before you’re both forced to switch.

 

[Robot7620]

While I agree with you that Dragapult is still viable, saying it doesn’t use ghost moves is ignoring the fact that one of its best sets in regular OU right now is the sub-disable set, which runs Hex (a ghost type move) as its only attack. This does hurt that set’s viability, as it can’t do to things like Chansey what it does to all the passive non-normal types in gen 8: set up a sub, disable their one attack, burn them, and spam hex. It is immune to Chansey’s seismic toss and can sit behind a sub to dodge toxic, but even then it lets Chansey set up rocks on you before you’re both forced to switch.

Does or does Dragapult not have Shadow Ball?

 

[UltraxBlade]

Does or does Dragapult not have Shadow Ball?

It does, and it runs it on Specs variants. I’m specifically talking about the set Substitute, Disable, Will-o-Wisp, Hex, which is popular in regular OU. It’s an interesting set to use, and is quite effective against a wide variety of Pokemon that only have one move capable of breaking Dragapult’s substitute or anything that hates being burned. Hex is used in conjunction with Wisp to deal much more damage than Shadow Ball after you’ve burned things (130 BP if the target’s statused), and its ability to easily get burns once it’s subbed up is a real nuisance for a lot of pokemon by itself even before the Hex comes in for the big hit. You can find a more detailed description of the set on Dragapult’s OU page here. I’ve used it a bit in both formats and have really liked it, but it absolutely hates Chansey’s existence, as it is completely unable to touch it or any other normal type, and Chansey in particular doesn’t care about burns (especially because of natural cure and good recovery) and can set up stealth rocks on Dragapult’s substitute or use heal bell to undo all of the other burns Dragapult's thrown around.

Where Dragapult does lack in Ghost moves is its physical movepool, where it only gets the awful Phantom Force, which is even more unusable in a format with normal types around. This is a major flaw of Dragapult’s, as its stats favor physical attacking but it lacks a physical ghost STAB.

 

[G-Luke]

Most pokemon don't outspeed Dragapult and it doesn't have ghost moves to use to be blocked by normal types.

I may have over exaggerated the speed point, but the other issues were absolutely on point. The best thing about Dragapult in OU is that it can utilize its Ghost STAB to its full extent due to a lack of potent immunities, with one of its best sets only running one attacking move being Hex. Hex sets alone have plummeted in viability here, as Chansey exists, and the speed tier it was meant to benchmark can be reached and surpassed by plenty of viable Choice Scarf users in NatDex.

 

[658Greninja]

I may have over exaggerated the speed point, but the other issues were absolutely on point. The best thing about Dragapult in OU is that it can utilize its Ghost STAB to its full extent due to a lack of potent immunities, with one of its best sets only running one attacking move being Hex. Hex sets alone have plummeted in viability here, as Chansey exists, and the speed tier it was meant to benchmark can be reached and surpassed by plenty of viable Choice Scarf users in NatDex.

Chansey is only really seen on Stall and the occasional balance team that has it. Chansey is also trapped by Screech Dugtrio and CB Pursuit tar in case you want to eliminate Chansey for Pult. Pult’s speed tier, movepool, and typing is still really good for NatDex standards, Sub Hex is still really good for trolling Ash Gren, Koko, and Magearna. It still 2HKOs a large portion of the metagame with Specs.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Also guys, 120/100 offenses are good, but they aren't great in a metagame where Toxapex, Rotom and Ferro are being 2HKO'd by resisted moves. Tbh base 100 special attack is low considering he suffers from serious 4mss and lacks Sheer Force. I expect that to be outclassed by Genesect soon. 120 base attack is better but the realization that Dragapult lacks a good physical ghost move means that band is easily counterable with mmeta running around. Infiltrator is good but really the only mon in this tier who consistently uses Sub is Zygarde. Who's a Dragon type. And Dragon Darts hits multiple times so that value is wasted. Hes also too fast to truly benefit from DD imo and the dynamax stat boosts dont particularly help him. Hes not saving the day, but hes okay.

Edit: Dynamax in Gen 8 OU is banned. :3

 

[astralydia]

Hearing about Hex Dragapult and I gotta say, with Dynamax around it's not too brilliant but I still have something to dump that fixes a lot of potential issues that it could have.

Dragapult @ Electrium Z
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder
- U-turn

Electrium Z Dragapult works slightly differently to how SubHex works in Galar Dex as it has more of a reason to run coverage for relevant targets (see: Tapu Fini, Magearna, Toxapex). From this it ends up being a fairly solid balance breaker that has a lot of opportunities to pivot out whilst still having an excellent revenge killing capability especially when paired with Toxic Spikes. Electrium Z Thunder blasts away Toxapex after a Hex, Tapu Fini, Celesteela and Corviknight whilst doing significant damage to other resists like Tyranitar and SpDef Magearna. U-turn is however, the main difference to this set that isn't present on other Dragapult in Galar dex - the reason being that it allows Dragapult to rack up damage with hazards on Tyranitar and Chansey, assisting with the wallbreaking role but being fairly slow at it. Alongside Choice Specs I expect this mon to be superb in NatDex OU if Dynamax goes - I feel it will be especially better than Tapu Koko due to a much more varied playstyle and given Koko's strong viability in SM this makes me place a lot of trust in it being a solid mon.

 

[Cabneet]

Not to be combative, but this meta seems extremely messy.

Why are megas and z-moves included; isn't the tagline is "play with all the pokemon", not "play with all the mechanics". If you're going to even include cut moves like Pursuit or Hidden Power, what reason is there to not include Gen 1 Blizzard or other move functionality that was also removed? A Natdex meta is going to inherently be arbitrary, but I feel the goal should be to mitigate arbitrariness, not lean into it.

Idk it feels like a mishmash of mechanics and concepts that is really far removed from the simple "play with the national pokedex" concept, which is disappointing given how appealing that sounds.

Because in practice mega evolutions are essentially their own Pokemon.
How can you really compare Mawile to its mega? Or charizard? Or aggron? They function completely differently.
It's really not that difficult to wrap your head around. Its gen 7 mechanics with the new mons. Wow. What a mess.
Really the biggest "mess" in natdex is dynamax, which is getting banned soon anyway. Theres also a MASSIVE and CLEAR distinction between moves like pursuit being cut entirely and moves like blizzard being changed after gen 1. Obviously you'd just use the most up to date version of the move.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Hey do you guys think Deoxys-D is too overpowered for NDOU?

• Terrible defensive typing.​
• Good offensive movepool is rendered moot by low offenses and 4mss.​
• Again, terrible defensive typing. If Genesect is unbanned soon I can't see Deoxys living more than one +1 U-Turn. Even without Genesect, Volt Turn is really popular rn and he cant do Jack shit against it.​
• It has recovery and high defensive utility - Trick, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt - but he suffers from extreme 4mss and is just taunt bait.​
• Hes not really that bulky; his 160/160 defenses are neutered by a mono psychic typing and a low base HP.​
• He has no offensive use whatsoever lol. Cosmic Power sets are inferior to Reuniclus.​
• He suffers immense competition from other walls like Corsola, Toxapex, Zapdos, Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Chansey.​
• Speaking of Corsola, lol Corsola is literally better than Deoxys-d in every way. Bulkier, able to actually pressure attackers with burns and strength sap, better defensive typing.​
• In fact after typing all of this out Deoxys-Defense sounds straight up bad, unless theres something crucial im missing. Like Cresselia is fucking better lmao she has levitate and healing wish and is sexy. Deoxys bulk is not gonna cut it when toxapex can't switch into a mon with base 90 attack. Deoxys is super passive and is complete setup fodder if it doesn't carry taunt and it does: whoops now you can't carry stealth rock meaning that deoxys is now delegated to being your resident spiker when Ferrothorn does that but better in literally every way​
• And even if you have taunt lol what is deoxys gonna do against hydreigon, tyranitar, aegislash, zygarde, mmeta, in fact almost every single breaker laughs at deoxys defense simply due to the fact that he is too pasive while also hes no longer that bulky​
• I have come to the conclusion that deoxys defense fucking sucks and would barely see use even if he was unbanned but at this point im sure I have to be missing some crucial aspect of his kit that made him ubers worthy in the first place because by the looks of it he shouldn't have been ubers in gen 7 lol​

 

[astralydia]

Hey do you guys think Deoxys-D is too overpowered for NDOU?

• Terrible defensive typing.​
• Good offensive movepool is rendered moot by low offenses and 4mss.​
• Again, terrible defensive typing. If Genesect is unbanned soon I can't see Deoxys living more than one +1 U-Turn. Even without Genesect, Volt Turn is really popular rn and he cant do Jack shit against it.​
• It has recovery and high defensive utility - Trick, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt - but he suffers from extreme 4mss and is just taunt bait.​
• Hes not really that bulky; his 160/160 defenses are neutered by a mono psychic typing and a low base HP.​
• He has no offensive use whatsoever lol. Cosmic Power sets are inferior to Reuniclus.​
• He suffers immense competition from other walls like Corsola, Toxapex, Zapdos, Ferrothorn, Corviknight, and Chansey.​
• Speaking of Corsola, lol Corsola is literally better than Deoxys-d in every way. Bulkier, able to actually pressure attackers with burns and strength sap, better defensive typing.​
• In fact after typing all of this out Deoxys-Defense sounds straight up bad, unless theres something crucial im missing. Like Cresselia is fucking better lmao she has levitate and healing wish and is sexy. Deoxys bulk is not gonna cut it when toxapex can't switch into a mon with base 90 attack. Deoxys is super passive and is complete setup fodder if it doesn't carry taunt and it does: whoops now you can't carry stealth rock meaning that deoxys is now delegated to being your resident spiker when Ferrothorn does that but better in literally every way​
• And even if you have taunt lol what is deoxys gonna do against hydreigon, tyranitar, aegislash, zygarde, mmeta, in fact almost every single breaker laughs at deoxys defense simply due to the fact that he is too pasive while also hes no longer that bulky​
• I have come to the conclusion that deoxys defense fucking sucks and would barely see use even if he was unbanned but at this point im sure I have to be missing some crucial aspect of his kit that made him ubers worthy in the first place because by the looks of it he shouldn't have been ubers in gen 7 lol​

The main thing you're missing here is that Deo-D has access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes. If I recall correctly being a ridiculous hazard setter was what got Deo-D banned from OU in the first place, and SM wasn't willing to test that again. Now that Mew gets both of these I think it could very well be safe to let the mon down, but I doubt it will be bad unless Mew strictly outclasses.

On Corsola being straight up better, the niches are different and I'd beg to say that Corsola is honestly the bad one here. Extremely reliant on Strength Sap so can be exploited by team structure and has some 4MSS it has to deal with - the choice between Haze and Stealth Rock can be a tough one.

 

[Cabneet]

The main thing you're missing here is that Deo-D has access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes. If I recall correctly being a ridiculous hazard setter was what got Deo-D banned from OU in the first place, and SM wasn't willing to test that again. Now that Mew gets both of these I think it could very well be safe to let the mon down, but I doubt it will be bad unless Mew strictly outclasses.

On Corsola being straight up better, the niches are different and I'd beg to say that Corsola is honestly the bad one here. Extremely reliant on Strength Sap so can be exploited by team structure and has some 4MSS it has to deal with - the choice between Haze and Stealth Rock can be a tough one.

Natdex has new tools in Hatterene, court change, heavy duty boots, and various new wall/stallbreakers that all should be better at dealing with deo-d
I mean granted, Deo can run moves to get around some of these, like skill swap to get up hazards on Hatte, but still I've made teams in natdex where getting up hazards vs me is practically wasting turns thanks to heavy duty boots alone.
Hazards are weaker than they have ever been, especially in natdex if you choose to abuse it.
Although honestly I wouldnt care if deo-d comes back or stays go, I really doubt it would add much to the meta.

 

[Zneon]

I do think that Deoxys-D wouldn't be too broken for OU, mainly because Gen 8 isn't kind to defensive Pokemon, especially with the new Dynamax making it harder to utilise defensive mons to their fullest without a check to it, I doubt Deoxys-D would be too much to handle, especially when Psychic is such an awful defensive typing in an offence heavy meta and the fact that it was very little offensive capabilities will make it much easier to deal with.

On the other hand, Deoyxs-D is incredibly fast for a defensive Pokemon, 90 Base Speed is no joke, and has access to recovery while still getting great utility moves in Twave, Trick, Taunt, Knock Off, etc. So if this thing gets allowed in the metagame, I am pretty sure it will outclass the majority of hazard setters and make them obsolete by not even letting them get them up with its speed and access to Taunt. But I don't think this will have too much of an impact in my opinion because with the introduction of Heavy-duty boots, spinners being rewarded immensely by spinning hazards and overall so many mons having a way to negate or remove hazards, hazards have gotten incredibly nerfed this gen. Looking at how much offence is being spammed, I think Deoxys-D has things that differentiates it from other hazard setters, but having such trash defensive typing and not too many ways to wear down other mons is going to put it on thin ice.

 

[earl]

I do think that Deoyxs-D wouldn't be too broken for OU, mainly because Gen 8 isn't kind to defensive Pokemon, especially with the new Dynamax making it harder to utilise defensive mons to their fullest without a check to it, I doubt Deoyxs-D would be too much to handle, especially when Psychic is such an awful defensive typing in an offence heavy meta and the fact that it was very little offensive capabilities will make it much easier to deal with.

On the other hand, Deoyxs-D is incredibly fast for a defensive Pokemon, 90 Base Speed is no joke, and has access to recovery while still getting great utility moves in Twave, Trick, Taunt, Knock Off, etc. So if this thing gets allowed in the metagame, I am pretty sure it will outclass the majority of hazard setters and make them obsolete by not even letting them get them up with its speed and access to Taunt. But I don't think this will have too much of an impact in my opinion because with the introduction of Heavy-duty boots, spinners being rewarded immensely by spinning hazards and overall so many mons having a way to negate or remove hazards, hazards have gotten incredibly nerfed this gen. Looking at how much offence is being spammed, I think Deoyxs-D has things that differentiates it from other hazard setters, but having such trash defensive typing and not too many ways to wear down other mons is going to put it on thin ice.

Deoxys-D was never banned for its defensive prowess, it was banned for being an overwhelmingly consistent and good hazard lead. Therefore, a more offensive meta means a more potent Deoxys-D.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Deoxys-D was never banned for its defensive prowess, it was banned for being an overwhelmingly consistent and good hazard lead. Therefore, a more offensive meta means a more potent Deoxys-D.

Yes but as Cabneet said hazards are weaker than ever and the only thing Deoxys-D is remotely capable of is hazards. Once he sets up hazards he is complete deadweight for the rest of the match. Who else does something like that? Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has Stealth Rock and Spikes. Only thing is that Ferrothorn has S+ tier defensive typing and discourages physical attacks and has Leech Seed, Spore, and Toxic immunities to make him useful after the first three turns in the game. Heavy Duty Boots single-handedly nerfs Deoxys-D; the Pokemon that are truly threatened by hazards will just become completely immune to it.

And Deoxys-Defense's bulk has been completely power creeped. Like:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

244 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 338-398 (111.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

Its not like Deoxys-Defense will be a valuable wall past setting up spikes and rocks. He cant even switch into shit like Kartana who can use him as set up bait.


Not to even mention that he is literally incapable of harming Zygarde.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

So, I’ve been wanting to compose this list for a while, but take note that I’ve been extremely liberal with what I’ve chosen as viable. That being said, without further ado, I present:

The National Dex OU Viability List
​

In this list is every Pokemon deemed viable (by me, so grabs your grains of salt!) in the tier. In addition, any sets the Pokemon can run will be in parenthesis next to their name. If Standard is in the parenthesis, it makes the Pokemon is not likely to deviate from its Gen 7 sets. This list is in no particular order, and is subject to change as the metagame evolves (which is why I’m hesitant to put it up when Dynamax is unbanned and Deo-D is, but I have time for it damnit). Lastly, italics means this might be a niche option or inferior to other sets.

• Heatran (Standard)​
• Landorus-Therian (Offensive Stealth Rock, Suicide Lead)​
• Magearna (Standard, OTR)​
• Toxapex (Standard, Baneful Bunker and PhysDef may come to the forefront however)​
• Aegislash (SubToxic, 3 Attacks)​
• Barraskewda (Choice Band)​
• Pelipper (Standard)​
• Mega Swampert (Standard, may outclass Barraskewda entirely bar Speed)​
• Cinderace (Court Change, Choiced)​
• Clefable (Standard, Life Orb may become more popular)​
• Galarian Corsola (Physically Defensive)​
• Gliscor (Standard)​
• Greninja-Ash (Standard)​
• Ferrothorn (Standard)​
• Kartana (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Normalium Z, Fightinium Z)​
• Corviknight (Physically Defensive, Bulk Up)
• Tornadus-Therian (Standard, HDB, Firium Z)
• Mega Latias (Standard)
• Mega Mawile (Standard)
• Galarian Darmanitan (Choice Scarf, CBCBDARM, Zen Mode SalacDrum)
• Dracovish (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Substitute)
• Mega Alakazam (Standard)
• Magnezone (Standard)
• Rotom-Wash (Standard, Nasty Plot)
• Rotom-Heat (Heavy-Duty Boots Pivot, Nasty Plot, Choice Scarf)
• Ditto (Standard)
• Dragapult (Choice Specs, SubDisable, Electrium Z, Dragon Dance)
• Excadrill (Standard)
• Mega Metagross (All-Out Attacker, Stealth Rock)
• Mega Blastoise (Shell Smash)
• Dugtrio (Reversal + Focus Sash, Screech + Groundium Z)
• Zygarde (Choice Band, Dragon Dance, Coil, Double Dance, SubUtility)
• Garchomp (Offensive Stealth Rock)
• Mega Garchomp (Standard)
• Greninja (Standard)
• Celesteela (Standard)
• Mega Latios (Standard)
• Mega Lopunny (Standard, Ice Punch is no longer near mandatory due to Scrappy buff)
• Mega Medicham (Standard, Thunder Punch is less viable with the terrain nerf)
• Tapu Koko (Shuca Pivot, Choice Specs)
• Tapu Lele (Choice Specs, Calm Mind)
• Tapu Bulu (Choice Band, Physically Defensive)
• Tapu Fini (Standard, RIP Defog though)
• Grimmsnarl (Dual Screens, Utility Attacker, CB + Prankster Trick)
• Hatterene (OTR, Calm Mind)
• Gyarados (Dragon Dance)
• Mega Gyarados (Dragon Dance but it takes your Mega)
• Hawlucha (Standard)
• Tyranitar (Choice Band, Assault Vest)
• Mega Tyranitar (Stealth Rock)
• Chansey (Standard)
• Reuniclus (Standard, now gets Stored Power, making DD sets way more threatening)
• Mega Scizor (Curse)
• Hydreigon (Nasty Plot + Darkinium Z)
• Serperior (Standard, but now double Glare is possible)
• Tangrowth (Physically Defensive)
• Zapdos (HDB)
• Volcarona (Bulky HDB, Offensive QD + Bug/Psychium Z)
• Seismitoad (Physically Defensive)
• Jellicent (Physically Defensive)
• Toxtricity (Choice Specs, Shift Gear)
• Mega Charizard X (Dragon Dance, 3 Attacks)
• Mega Charizard Y (Standard)
• Jirachi (Standard)
• Victini (Standard)
• Manaphy (Standard)
• Mega Diancie (Standard)
• Kommo-o (Standard + Clangorous Soul, SpDef sets now get Body Press to eat Ferro+Tran in one slot)
• Gastrodon (Standard)
• Mega Sableye (Standard)
• Slowbro (Standard, Psychic may become necessary to immediately damage Dracovish)
• Mega Slowbro (Standard, see above about Psychic)
• Amoonguss (Standard, might run PhysDef)
• Hippowdon (Standard, but full SpDef might be better)
• Hoopa-Unbound (Choice Band, Choice Specs)
• Kyurem (SubRoost, Choice Specs)
• Mega Venusaur (Standard, gets Earth Power to discourage Heatran switch-ins)
• Mega Gallade (Standard, Inner Focus buff means Landorus-T is not the best check)
• Mew (Suicide Lead, Defensive)
• Quagsire (Standard)
• Skarmory (Standard but don’t run Defog on this)
• Blacephalon (Choice Scarf, Speed-Boosting CM/Specs)

Potentially Viable (consider all of these sets either niche or relatively new)

• Genesect (Choice Scarf, Expert Belt, Shift Gear)
• Deoxys-Defense (Physically Defensive, Suicide Lead)
• Alomomola (Regenerator Pivot)
• Vaporeon (Physically Defensive Wish)
• Moltres (HDB Pressure Stall, HDB Offensive)
• Salamence (HDB Dragon Dance)
• Volcanion (Water Absorb + Defog)
• Avalugg (Physically Defensive)
• Gengar (Nasty Plot, Choice Scarf)
• Suicune (Vincune)
• Buzzwole (Physically Defensive)
• Torkoal (Physically Defensive Sun Setter)
• Venusaur (Sun Sweeper)
• Rillaboom (Choice Scarf, wait until Grassy Surge release though)
• Shedinja (HDB wall)
• Melmetal (Trick Room Attacker)
• Uxie (Trick Room Setter)
• Alolan Marowak (Trick Room Abuser)

And that’s the list! Note that I consider everything Hippowdon and below to not be metagame-warping presences, but I expect them to still have a presence in the tier, even if its like flavor of the month. In addition to that, anything above Serp/MSciz I expect to be quite a metagame star or at least a consistent mon (barring like Hatterene, the Garchomps and Grimmsnarl). What do you guys think? What should be added? What should be removed? In general, this list is enormously crude (because I pulled it from the Gen 7 VR and the Gen 8 VL) so please do be critical if something is not on there that should be!

 

[power]

After the discussion in this thread and a council vote, Deoxys-D and Genesect are now unbanned from National Dex OU. Tagging The Immortal.

Deoxys-D: It's not clear this mon deserved to be on the initial banlist. Hazard removal has vastly improved since the last time Deoxys-D was last permitted in OU, and National Dex has a plethora of it, in addition to Heavy-Duty Boots and Court Change. Not to mention that Mew performs an exceedingly similar role with its newfound access to Spikes, so Deoxys-D is likely to be a fine addition to the tier.

Genesect:

I think Genesect should not be on the initial banlist; it's not at the power level of everything else on the initial banlist. I am also not sure that Genesect is guaranteed to be broken in this format. While it will likely be very good, Dugtrio, Aegislash, and some of the new mons like Corviknight threaten it greatly. It may be broken down the line but I am not sure it warrants inclusion on the initial banlist, especially since Aegislash is also not guaranteed to be broken this gen. Furthermore, Genesects slow speed is a liability in such an offensive meta; it struggles vs rain and faster offensive juggernauts.

Dynamax is also really bad for Genesect. The buffs from genesect matter little to genesect beyond a slight powerup to that coverage move (like sun or electric terrain), but Dynamax will cut short genesect sweeps. For example, Tornadus-T can easily Dynamax, take 30% from a genesect move and kill it back.

Hopefully these new additions to the meta prove to be interesting!

Additionally, we decided not to unban a phew other mons brought up, such as Landorus-I and Pheromosa. Here's our reasoning:

Landorus-I: Landorus-I seems to be an interesting unban, but we were rather worried about its sweeping potential in conjuction with Dynamax. Access to Max Ooze to boost special attack and Max Airstream to boost speed makes Landorus-I a terrifying sweeper, so we did not unban Lando-I.

Pheromosa: Pheromosa was banned in SM, which means most people discussing Pheromosa in this thread neglected the new move tutors in USUM, which allows it to muscle past Toxapex and Aegislash with Drill Run. Pheromosa also benefits greatly from Dynamax, easily snacking on priority such as Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, Water Shuriken, Extreme Speed, etc, and having access to Max Knuckle along with Beast Boost make it exceedingly dangerous. For these reasons, we chose not to unban Pheromosa.

Some other topics:

1) Firstly, communication has been rather sparse from us over the last few weeks. I'd like to fill in everyone a little about what's been going on in National Dex OU behind the scenes. Firstly, we are still discussing what defines a National Dex format. We plan to have a consistent tiering policy for National Dex up soon; this may or may not have a large impact on the tier, but I'd like to mention this because I don't want to surprise anyone with a big change. This is because National Dex formats all need to be consistent with each other, and this means that site leaders and tier leaders for both National Dex AG and OU need to all agree on what constitutes a National Dex format. This is something we could not discuss prior to release because we were unable about how SwSh would structure Dexit, but nonetheless this discussion has been going on for a while and we hope to have a full decision and a tiering policy up soon.

2) The question of whether Dynamax belongs in NDOU depends heavily on a consistent and complete National Dex tiering policy. We hope to have this out soon. We also recognize that Dynamax is somewhat problematic in the metagame as it currently stands. Nonetheless, it is not as overbearing as OU; National Dex is a very different format and Mega Evolutions and Z-Move users are unable to Dynamax, limiting the potential for Dynamax. Dynamax is something we are discussing and we hope to follow up on shortly after we formalize the National Dex tiering policy.

 

[Monsoon117]

Yes but as Cabneet said hazards are weaker than ever and the only thing Deoxys-D is remotely capable of is hazards. Once he sets up hazards he is complete deadweight for the rest of the match. Who else does something like that? Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn has Stealth Rock and Spikes. Only thing is that Ferrothorn has S+ tier defensive typing and discourages physical attacks and has Leech Seed, Spore, and Toxic immunities to make him useful after the first three turns in the game. Heavy Duty Boots single-handedly nerfs Deoxys-D; the Pokemon that are truly threatened by hazards will just become completely immune to it.

And Deoxys-Defense's bulk has been completely power creeped. Like:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

244 SpA Hydreigon Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 338-398 (111.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

Its not like Deoxys-Defense will be a valuable wall past setting up spikes and rocks. He cant even switch into shit like Kartana who can use him as set up bait.


Not to even mention that he is literally incapable of harming Zygarde.

OK, these are terrible examples. You're cherry picking calcs here, and you aren't even using actual fully defensive sets either. A banded, adamant TTar using a super effective, STAB move, and it STILL doesn't guarantee an OHKO. That literally isn't even a fully defensed out Deoxys Here's the same calc with full defense:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

That's right, it never OHKOs, and with stealth rocks up:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

You still live 7/8 games. That's insane bulk. Here's another one of your calcs being wonky. Black hole eclipse from Hydreigon, super effective, zero special defense investment on the Deoxys(What???), and you call that an example of no bulk?

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Defense: 260-308 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Look at that. Deoxys-D almost always lives a STAB super effective Z-move from a strong special attacker. That is absurd. That calc with kartana using knock off? Deoxys-D always lives the second knock off since it's weaker, meaning it can recover stall with pressure, or use it to set up hazards. That's a super effective coverage move from one of the strongest attackers in the tier, yet it can live the 2HKO.

Here's some other, IMO, meaningful examples of what Deoxys D could check.

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 121-142 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon(195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Defense: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Defense: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 70-83 (23 - 27.3%) -- 1.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are all strong moves, and yeah, some of these switches are risky, like with Kartana or Gren, but Deoxys-D can yum yum up most hits.

I think the most ample comparison would be to compare it to Toxapex. Deoxys-D has 8 more defense, 18 more special defense, 55 more speed, and 17 more Aptack. These are all relevant. That speed lets Deoxys D outspeed and taunt other walls, winning the hazard wars everytime. It can actually run a few offensive techs randomly, chunking some switch ins. Psycho Boost is pretty strong even off 70 Sptack.

0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham: 144-169 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 135-160 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 123-145 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 134-158 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

So these calcs aren't world beater calcs by any means, but these are solid chunks compared to to what a toxapex can whip out. You mentioned being set up bait for Kartana, but that psycho boost puts kartana in range of water shuriken from Ash-Gren if it hits 3 times or more, assuming its a modest greninja ash. You couldn't just switch kartana in without fear of recourse in that scenario. It could also taunt on the switch if it needed too.

Some other stuff that Deoxys D can do reliably: Trick Room setter, can set up screens, can spread paralysis with thunderwave, toxicing pokes, as already mentioned, it has both spikes and stealth rocks, can knock things off, it even has rock tomb to slow people down in hazard wars.

I'm not saying that Deoxys-D should be banned. I actually think it would be quite nice to have as a general defensive wall that's relatively speedy. Underestimating its flexibility and raw bulk isn't wise though; it's a strong mon no doubt.

 

[Guard]

-

Good job overall! I do believe Mola, Vaporeon (Cleric support, checks G-Darm, counters Vish), Pyukumuku, Boots Avalugg and Boots Moltres are still fringe viable Stall-picks though

 

[TheUprising007]

So, I’ve been wanting to compose this list for a while, but take note that I’ve been extremely liberal with what I’ve chosen as viable. That being said, without further ado, I present:

The National Dex OU Viability List
​

In this list is every Pokemon deemed viable (by me, so grabs your grains of salt!) in the tier. In addition, any sets the Pokemon can run will be in parenthesis next to their name. If Standard is in the parenthesis, it makes the Pokemon is not likely to deviate from its Gen 7 sets. This list is in no particular order, and is subject to change as the metagame evolves (which is why I’m hesitant to put it up when Dynamax is unbanned and Deo-D is, but I have time for it damnit). Lastly, italics means this might be a niche option or inferior to other sets.

• Heatran (Standard)​
• Landorus-Therian (Offensive Stealth Rock, Suicide Lead)​
• Magearna (Standard, OTR)​
• Toxapex (Standard, Baneful Bunker and PhysDef may come to the forefront however)​
• Aegislash (SubToxic, 3 Attacks)​
• Barraskewda (Choice Band)​
• Pelipper (Standard)​
• Mega Swampert (Standard, may outclass Barraskewda entirely bar Speed)​
• Cinderace (Court Change, Choiced)​
• Clefable (Standard, Life Orb may become more popular)​
• Galarian Corsola (Physically Defensive)​
• Gliscor (Standard)​
• Greninja-Ash (Standard)​
• Ferrothorn (Standard)​
• Kartana (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Normalium Z, Fightinium Z)​
• Corviknight (Physically Defensive, Bulk Up)
• Tornadus-Therian (Standard, HDB, Firium Z)
• Mega Latias (Standard)
• Mega Mawile (Standard)
• Galarian Darmanitan (Choice Scarf, CBCBDARM, Zen Mode SalacDrum)
• Dracovish (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Substitute)
• Mega Alakazam (Standard)
• Magnezone (Standard)
• Rotom-Wash (Standard, Nasty Plot)
• Rotom-Heat (Heavy-Duty Boots Pivot, Nasty Plot, Choice Scarf)
• Ditto (Standard)
• Dragapult (Choice Specs, SubDisable, Electrium Z, Dragon Dance)
• Excadrill (Standard)
• Mega Metagross (All-Out Attacker, Stealth Rock)
• Mega Blastoise (Shell Smash)
• Dugtrio (Reversal + Focus Sash, Screech + Groundium Z)
• Zygarde (Choice Band, Dragon Dance, Coil, Double Dance, SubUtility)
• Garchomp (Offensive Stealth Rock)
• Mega Garchomp (Standard)
• Greninja (Standard)
• Celesteela (Standard)
• Mega Latios (Standard)
• Mega Lopunny (Standard, Ice Punch is no longer near mandatory due to Scrappy buff)
• Mega Medicham (Standard, Thunder Punch is less viable with the terrain nerf)
• Tapu Koko (Shuca Pivot, Choice Specs)
• Tapu Lele (Choice Specs, Calm Mind)
• Tapu Bulu (Choice Band, Physically Defensive)
• Tapu Fini (Standard, RIP Defog though)
• Grimmsnarl (Dual Screens, Utility Attacker, CB + Prankster Trick)
• Hatterene (OTR, Calm Mind)
• Gyarados (Dragon Dance)
• Mega Gyarados (Dragon Dance but it takes your Mega)
• Hawlucha (Standard)
• Tyranitar (Choice Band, Assault Vest)
• Mega Tyranitar (Stealth Rock)
• Chansey (Standard)
• Reuniclus (Standard, now gets Stored Power, making DD sets way more threatening)
• Mega Scizor (Curse)
• Hydreigon (Nasty Plot + Darkinium Z)
• Serperior (Standard, but now double Glare is possible)
• Tangrowth (Physically Defensive)
• Zapdos (HDB)
• Volcarona (Bulky HDB, Offensive QD + Bug/Psychium Z)
• Seismitoad (Physically Defensive)
• Toxtricity (Choice Specs, Shift Gear)
• Mega Charizard X (Dragon Dance, 3 Attacks)
• Mega Charizard Y (Standard)
• Jirachi (Standard)
• Victini (Standard)
• Manaphy (Standard)
• Mega Diancie (Standard)
• Kommo-o (Standard, SpDef sets now get Body Press to eat Ferro+Tran in one slot)
• Gastrodon (Standard)
• Mega Sableye (Standard)
• Slowbro (Standard, Psychic may become necessary to immediately damage Dracovish)
• Mega Slowbro (Standard, see above about Psychic)
• Amoonguss (Standard, might run PhysDef)
• Hippowdon (Standard, but full SpDef might be better)
• Hoopa-Unbound (Choice Band)
• Kyurem (Standard but Freeze-Dry means it beats Celepex)
• Mega Venusaur (Standard, gets Earth Power to discourage Heatran switch-ins)
• Mega Gallade (Standard, Inner Focus buff means Landorus-T is not the best check)
• Mew (Suicide Lead, Defensive)
• Quagsire (Standard)
• Skarmory (Standard but don’t run Defog on this)
• Blacephalon (Choice Scarf, Speed-Boosting CM/Specs)

And that’s the list! Note that I consider everything Hippowdon and below to not be metagame-warping presences, but I expect them to still have a presence in the tier, even if its like flavor of the month. In addition to that, anything above Serp/MSciz I expect to be quite a metagame star or at least a consistent mon (barring like Hatterene, the Garchomps and Grimmsnarl). What do you guys think? What should be added? What should be removed? In general, this list is enormously crude (because I pulled it from the Gen 7 VR and the Gen 8 VL) so please do be critical if something is not on there that should be!

I truly appreciate the effort taken in compiling the list. I've been experimenting with some mons old and new alike. The ones I believe that deserve an honourable mention, are listed below

•Mega - Altaria ( Fast support w/body slam - flexes on the rare Zolt however it has to watch out for SteeliumZ or MaxSteel Strike. It also throws Banded Vish in jail; even in rain. But struggles with scarf in rain. Cons are that it loses out on bulk so tread carefully.
•Heatran (SpDef, specs)
•Hoopa-U (Specs - its really enjoyable seeing this shatter dreams once you manage to get it in safely )
•Jirachi ( Wish + Protect + body slam )
•Rillaboom (Scarf)
•Vaporeon (Phys Def - while competition for bulky water is intense, however as mentioned by Guardsweeper it distinguishes itself by being immune Vish water stab, but it has to watch out for banded adamant outrage)
•Torkoal ( Standard)
•Venusaur (Sun Sweeper)

 

[Marrilandra]

I know this is a bit random, but with OU now having banned Dynamax by an overwhelming majority, will National Dex OU also ban Dynamax now?

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

I know this is a bit random, but with OU now having banned Dynamax by an overwhelming majority, will National Dex OU also ban Dynamax now?

It seems that OU tiering decisions are reviewed by the council to see if they deserve a ban in NDOU, similar to what was done with Moody. In other words, we will have to wait for some time before we get a definitive answer.

Good job overall! I do believe Mola, Vaporeon (Cleric support, checks G-Darm, counters Vish), Pyukumuku, Boots Avalugg and Boots Moltres are still fringe viable Stall-picks though

I truly appreciate the effort taken in compiling the list. I've been experimenting with some mons old and new alike. The ones I believe that deserve an honourable mention, are listed below

•Mega - Altaria ( Fast support w/body slam - flexes on the rare Zolt however it has to watch out for SteeliumZ or MaxSteel Strike. It also throws Banded Vish in jail; even in rain. But struggles with scarf in rain. Cons are that it loses out on bulk so tread carefully.
•Heatran (SpDef, specs)
•Hoopa-U (Specs - its really enjoyable seeing this shatter dreams once you manage to get it in safely )
•Jirachi ( Wish + Protect + body slam )
•Rillaboom (Scarf)
•Vaporeon (Phys Def - while competition for bulky water is intense, however as mentioned by Guardsweeper it distinguishes itself by being immune Vish water stab, but it has to watch out for banded adamant outrage)
•Torkoal ( Standard)
•Venusaur (Sun Sweeper)

Thanks guys! I’ve taken your considerations and made a potentially viable list, which is below the standard one right now. I’ve also added Jellicent to the main VL, as it is one of the few balance mons to take on GDarm and Dracovish simultaneously.

Alomomola: Added
Vaporeon: Added
Pyukumuku: I’m not sure if I‘ll put this on there, let me give it some thought
Avalugg: Added
Moltres: Added
Mega Altaria: I’m unsure if I’ll put this on. It needs 216 Speed to outrun Adamant Dracovish, can’t even OHKO with Body Slam uninvested, and hampers its match-up against Greninja-Ash and Heatran to do so while taking a Mega slot. I could see its merit though.
Heatran: SpDef is part of Standard, if Specs puts crazy work in with Eruption let me know
Hoopa-U: Added Specs
Jirachi: already standard
Rillaboom: Added, made note that it should be run when GSurge is released, otherwise use Bulu because Knock + U-turn isn’t the strongest niche
Sun mons: Added because Sun might be decent this gen Zaza PsyducksChili

 

[Sputnik]

So, I’ve been wanting to compose this list for a while, but take note that I’ve been extremely liberal with what I’ve chosen as viable. That being said, without further ado, I present:

The National Dex OU Viability List
​

In this list is every Pokemon deemed viable (by me, so grabs your grains of salt!) in the tier. In addition, any sets the Pokemon can run will be in parenthesis next to their name. If Standard is in the parenthesis, it makes the Pokemon is not likely to deviate from its Gen 7 sets. This list is in no particular order, and is subject to change as the metagame evolves (which is why I’m hesitant to put it up when Dynamax is unbanned and Deo-D is, but I have time for it damnit). Lastly, italics means this might be a niche option or inferior to other sets.

• Heatran (Standard)​
• Landorus-Therian (Offensive Stealth Rock, Suicide Lead)​
• Magearna (Standard, OTR)​
• Toxapex (Standard, Baneful Bunker and PhysDef may come to the forefront however)​
• Aegislash (SubToxic, 3 Attacks)​
• Barraskewda (Choice Band)​
• Pelipper (Standard)​
• Mega Swampert (Standard, may outclass Barraskewda entirely bar Speed)​
• Cinderace (Court Change, Choiced)​
• Clefable (Standard, Life Orb may become more popular)​
• Galarian Corsola (Physically Defensive)​
• Gliscor (Standard)​
• Greninja-Ash (Standard)​
• Ferrothorn (Standard)​
• Kartana (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Normalium Z, Fightinium Z)​
• Corviknight (Physically Defensive, Bulk Up)
• Tornadus-Therian (Standard, HDB, Firium Z)
• Mega Latias (Standard)
• Mega Mawile (Standard)
• Galarian Darmanitan (Choice Scarf, CBCBDARM, Zen Mode SalacDrum)
• Dracovish (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Substitute)
• Mega Alakazam (Standard)
• Magnezone (Standard)
• Rotom-Wash (Standard, Nasty Plot)
• Rotom-Heat (Heavy-Duty Boots Pivot, Nasty Plot, Choice Scarf)
• Ditto (Standard)
• Dragapult (Choice Specs, SubDisable, Electrium Z, Dragon Dance)
• Excadrill (Standard)
• Mega Metagross (All-Out Attacker, Stealth Rock)
• Mega Blastoise (Shell Smash)
• Dugtrio (Reversal + Focus Sash, Screech + Groundium Z)
• Zygarde (Choice Band, Dragon Dance, Coil, Double Dance, SubUtility)
• Garchomp (Offensive Stealth Rock)
• Mega Garchomp (Standard)
• Greninja (Standard)
• Celesteela (Standard)
• Mega Latios (Standard)
• Mega Lopunny (Standard, Ice Punch is no longer near mandatory due to Scrappy buff)
• Mega Medicham (Standard, Thunder Punch is less viable with the terrain nerf)
• Tapu Koko (Shuca Pivot, Choice Specs)
• Tapu Lele (Choice Specs, Calm Mind)
• Tapu Bulu (Choice Band, Physically Defensive)
• Tapu Fini (Standard, RIP Defog though)
• Grimmsnarl (Dual Screens, Utility Attacker, CB + Prankster Trick)
• Hatterene (OTR, Calm Mind)
• Gyarados (Dragon Dance)
• Mega Gyarados (Dragon Dance but it takes your Mega)
• Hawlucha (Standard)
• Tyranitar (Choice Band, Assault Vest)
• Mega Tyranitar (Stealth Rock)
• Chansey (Standard)
• Reuniclus (Standard, now gets Stored Power, making DD sets way more threatening)
• Mega Scizor (Curse)
• Hydreigon (Nasty Plot + Darkinium Z)
• Serperior (Standard, but now double Glare is possible)
• Tangrowth (Physically Defensive)
• Zapdos (HDB)
• Volcarona (Bulky HDB, Offensive QD + Bug/Psychium Z)
• Seismitoad (Physically Defensive)
• Jellicent (Physically Defensive)
• Toxtricity (Choice Specs, Shift Gear)
• Mega Charizard X (Dragon Dance, 3 Attacks)
• Mega Charizard Y (Standard)
• Jirachi (Standard)
• Victini (Standard)
• Manaphy (Standard)
• Mega Diancie (Standard)
• Kommo-o (Standard + Clangorous Soul, SpDef sets now get Body Press to eat Ferro+Tran in one slot)
• Gastrodon (Standard)
• Mega Sableye (Standard)
• Slowbro (Standard, Psychic may become necessary to immediately damage Dracovish)
• Mega Slowbro (Standard, see above about Psychic)
• Amoonguss (Standard, might run PhysDef)
• Hippowdon (Standard, but full SpDef might be better)
• Hoopa-Unbound (Choice Band, Choice Specs)
• Kyurem (Standard but Freeze-Dry means it beats Celepex)
• Mega Venusaur (Standard, gets Earth Power to discourage Heatran switch-ins)
• Mega Gallade (Standard, Inner Focus buff means Landorus-T is not the best check)
• Mew (Suicide Lead, Defensive)
• Quagsire (Standard)
• Skarmory (Standard but don’t run Defog on this)
• Blacephalon (Choice Scarf, Speed-Boosting CM/Specs)

Potentially Viable (consider all of these sets either niche or relatively new)

• Genesect (Choice Scarf, Expert Belt, Shift Gear)
• Deoxys-Defense (Physically Defensive, Suicide Lead)
• Alomomola (Regenerator Pivot)
• Vaporeon (Physically Defensive Wish)
• Moltres (HDB Pressure Stall, HDB Offensive)
• Avalugg (Physically Defensive)
• Torkoal (Physically Defensive Sun Setter)
• Venusaur (Sun Sweeper)
• Rillaboom (Choice Scarf, wait until Grassy Surge release though)
• Shedinja (HDB wall)

And that’s the list! Note that I consider everything Hippowdon and below to not be metagame-warping presences, but I expect them to still have a presence in the tier, even if its like flavor of the month. In addition to that, anything above Serp/MSciz I expect to be quite a metagame star or at least a consistent mon (barring like Hatterene, the Garchomps and Grimmsnarl). What do you guys think? What should be added? What should be removed? In general, this list is enormously crude (because I pulled it from the Gen 7 VR and the Gen 8 VL) so please do be critical if something is not on there that should be!

Fantastic preliminary list, there's obviously some stuff on here that I disagree with but it's very early and overall it's extremely solid.

Two more things that you might want to consider adding are Gengar and Milotic. Gengar's access to Nasty Plot is very nice, and especially in Nat Dex it hits some very important speed benchmarks that Hydreigon (it's main competition for a Nasty Plotter imo) can't quite manage (Outrunning Kart and tying with Mega Metagross in particular). Scarf is also a decent choice. It's Gmax also has some interesting applications thanks to its trapping G-Max move. Milotic also has merit as another way to sort of check the Vish and G-Darm while also having Haze and being able to take on things like Dragapult and most Greninja sets. Overall seems like they could have merit.

 

[metal box]

So, I’ve been wanting to compose this list for a while, but take note that I’ve been extremely liberal with what I’ve chosen as viable. That being said, without further ado, I present:

The National Dex OU Viability List
​

In this list is every Pokemon deemed viable (by me, so grabs your grains of salt!) in the tier. In addition, any sets the Pokemon can run will be in parenthesis next to their name. If Standard is in the parenthesis, it makes the Pokemon is not likely to deviate from its Gen 7 sets. This list is in no particular order, and is subject to change as the metagame evolves (which is why I’m hesitant to put it up when Dynamax is unbanned and Deo-D is, but I have time for it damnit). Lastly, italics means this might be a niche option or inferior to other sets.

• Heatran (Standard)​
• Landorus-Therian (Offensive Stealth Rock, Suicide Lead)​
• Magearna (Standard, OTR)​
• Toxapex (Standard, Baneful Bunker and PhysDef may come to the forefront however)​
• Aegislash (SubToxic, 3 Attacks)​
• Barraskewda (Choice Band)​
• Pelipper (Standard)​
• Mega Swampert (Standard, may outclass Barraskewda entirely bar Speed)​
• Cinderace (Court Change, Choiced)​
• Clefable (Standard, Life Orb may become more popular)​
• Galarian Corsola (Physically Defensive)​
• Gliscor (Standard)​
• Greninja-Ash (Standard)​
• Ferrothorn (Standard)​
• Kartana (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Normalium Z, Fightinium Z)​
• Corviknight (Physically Defensive, Bulk Up)
• Tornadus-Therian (Standard, HDB, Firium Z)
• Mega Latias (Standard)
• Mega Mawile (Standard)
• Galarian Darmanitan (Choice Scarf, CBCBDARM, Zen Mode SalacDrum)
• Dracovish (Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Substitute)
• Mega Alakazam (Standard)
• Magnezone (Standard)
• Rotom-Wash (Standard, Nasty Plot)
• Rotom-Heat (Heavy-Duty Boots Pivot, Nasty Plot, Choice Scarf)
• Ditto (Standard)
• Dragapult (Choice Specs, SubDisable, Electrium Z, Dragon Dance)
• Excadrill (Standard)
• Mega Metagross (All-Out Attacker, Stealth Rock)
• Mega Blastoise (Shell Smash)
• Dugtrio (Reversal + Focus Sash, Screech + Groundium Z)
• Zygarde (Choice Band, Dragon Dance, Coil, Double Dance, SubUtility)
• Garchomp (Offensive Stealth Rock)
• Mega Garchomp (Standard)
• Greninja (Standard)
• Celesteela (Standard)
• Mega Latios (Standard)
• Mega Lopunny (Standard, Ice Punch is no longer near mandatory due to Scrappy buff)
• Mega Medicham (Standard, Thunder Punch is less viable with the terrain nerf)
• Tapu Koko (Shuca Pivot, Choice Specs)
• Tapu Lele (Choice Specs, Calm Mind)
• Tapu Bulu (Choice Band, Physically Defensive)
• Tapu Fini (Standard, RIP Defog though)
• Grimmsnarl (Dual Screens, Utility Attacker, CB + Prankster Trick)
• Hatterene (OTR, Calm Mind)
• Gyarados (Dragon Dance)
• Mega Gyarados (Dragon Dance but it takes your Mega)
• Hawlucha (Standard)
• Tyranitar (Choice Band, Assault Vest)
• Mega Tyranitar (Stealth Rock)
• Chansey (Standard)
• Reuniclus (Standard, now gets Stored Power, making DD sets way more threatening)
• Mega Scizor (Curse)
• Hydreigon (Nasty Plot + Darkinium Z)
• Serperior (Standard, but now double Glare is possible)
• Tangrowth (Physically Defensive)
• Zapdos (HDB)
• Volcarona (Bulky HDB, Offensive QD + Bug/Psychium Z)
• Seismitoad (Physically Defensive)
• Toxtricity (Choice Specs, Shift Gear)
• Mega Charizard X (Dragon Dance, 3 Attacks)
• Mega Charizard Y (Standard)
• Jirachi (Standard)
• Victini (Standard)
• Manaphy (Standard)
• Mega Diancie (Standard)
• Kommo-o (Standard, SpDef sets now get Body Press to eat Ferro+Tran in one slot)
• Gastrodon (Standard)
• Mega Sableye (Standard)
• Slowbro (Standard, Psychic may become necessary to immediately damage Dracovish)
• Mega Slowbro (Standard, see above about Psychic)
• Amoonguss (Standard, might run PhysDef)
• Hippowdon (Standard, but full SpDef might be better)
• Hoopa-Unbound (Choice Band)
• Kyurem (Standard but Freeze-Dry means it beats Celepex)
• Mega Venusaur (Standard, gets Earth Power to discourage Heatran switch-ins)
• Mega Gallade (Standard, Inner Focus buff means Landorus-T is not the best check)
• Mew (Suicide Lead, Defensive)
• Quagsire (Standard)
• Skarmory (Standard but don’t run Defog on this)
• Blacephalon (Choice Scarf, Speed-Boosting CM/Specs)

And that’s the list! Note that I consider everything Hippowdon and below to not be metagame-warping presences, but I expect them to still have a presence in the tier, even if its like flavor of the month. In addition to that, anything above Serp/MSciz I expect to be quite a metagame star or at least a consistent mon (barring like Hatterene, the Garchomps and Grimmsnarl). What do you guys think? What should be added? What should be removed? In general, this list is enormously crude (because I pulled it from the Gen 7 VR and the Gen 8 VL) so please do be critical if something is not on there that should be!

Love this list, I'd also add CM Suicune and BU Buzzwole here. Suicune can pretty easily sweep through balance teams that rely on Darm/Vish/Gren as breakers, while Buzzwole operates similarly to Curse Scizor by punishing setup Zygarde sets. Both also benefit really from heavily from Dynamax letting them muscle past checks

 

[VCrakeV]

Love this list, I'd also add CM Suicune and BU Buzzwole here. Suicune can pretty easily sweep through balance teams that rely on Darm/Vish/Gren as breakers, while Buzzwole operates similarly to Curse Scizor by punishing setup Zygarde sets. Both also benefit really from heavily from Dynamax letting them muscle past checks

Is Suicune common(-ish)? I ran into one and almost lost because I wasn't prepped for it. I was wondering if using seed bomb or bullet seed on Amoonguss over giga drain would be worth it.