Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Not to be combative, but this meta seems extremely messy.

Why are megas and z-moves are included; isn't the tagline is "play with all the pokemon", not "play with all the mechanics". If you're going to even include cut moves like Pursuit or Hidden Power, what reason is there to not include Gen 1 Blizzard or other move functionality that was also removed? A Natdex meta is going to inherently be arbitrary, but I feel the goal should be to mitigate arbitrariness, not lean into it.

Idk it feels like a mishmash of mechanics and concepts that is really far removed from the simple "play with the national pokedex" concept, which is disappointing given how appealing that sounds.
We're still discussing the direction of National Dex formats internally, we're hoping to come up with a clear idea of what Nat Dex will be in the next week. In the meantime please direct any questions to me, Pigeons, or Megazard.

However, we will be deleting further posts on the topic. We respect the community feedback but at this point it's already apparent that there is a subsection of the community unhappy with the current format (just as there is a subsection resistant to the changes suggested above) and more posts are only serving to derail the thread
 
Hello! I'm a semi-casual player who's been playing Showdown since gen 6, and I've been lurking on the forums since the start of this gen. I've been playing a decent amount of NatDex OU (this format is pretty much everything I hoped we'd be able to get on Showdown with the dex cut happening in the games), and decided to make my first post on these forums with some of my own observations of the format.

On some of the new Pokémon:
Galarian Darmanitan is still quite strong here, mainly as a scarf user, as base 95 speed doesn't really cut it in the natdex meta to be able to run band on it. It still hits quite hard with CBCS, and I found that it paired reasonably well with other iconic fast VoltTurn users like Tapu Koko and Scarf Landorus-T, as you could pivot between them to wear down opponents quite quickly.
Galarian Corsola is a strong addition to the pantheon of Eviolite walls, faring especially well against physical attackers thanks to strength sap and will-o-wisp.
Cinderace's Court Change is a really powerful tool against hazards, and I've found it performs quite well even without ProteanLibero. It's reasonably fast and hits pretty hard (Pyro Ball is a really good move), and it'll only get better once it gets Libero.
Dragapult may not be as good overall here as in regular gen 8 OU, but I've been having a lot of fun with the sub-disable set. It does struggle a bit with the fact that there are more viable normal types around (looking at you, Chansey), but it still seems like a solid option. The sub-disable set is especially good against more passive mons, as it can sit behind a substitute while disabling their main attack that would break it. I have yet to try out its other sets, but it still seems quite viable overall. It's very fast even for this meta, outspeeding things like Koko and Greninja, and has a lot of different options at its disposal.
I have not yet used Dracovish, but as someone who tends to build teams that overall lean more towards the defensive side I live in fear of the fish. This thing is an absurd wallbreaker, and it's hard to get in a faster counter if it comes in at the wrong time. I've been running Mega Venusaur, and Fishious Rend still blasts even that for just under 50%. It's incredibly scary to play around without going to the lengths of including a water immunity on your team.

On some of the returning Pokémon:
Things like Tapu Koko, Lando-T, Chansey, Greninja, Heatran, Kartana, etc. are still very good, doing a lot of the same things they did in gen 7.
I've been a big fan of Mega Venusaur for a while and it's still really good, as there are not many things that have an easy time breaking through it unless they run flying or psychic coverage. It's definitely hurt a bit by Dynamax incentivizing flying moves to be more common, but I've found that it can still check a lot of non-flying threats. And for those...
Aegislash is legal again! I can finally use my favorite Pokemon in my favorite format! I've found Aegislash to be quite strong in this meta but no longer broken, and I look forward to (hopefully) continuing to use it. It pairs quite well with Mega-Venusaur, as it can easily tank the flying and psychic hits that threaten venusaur, while venusaur, thanks to Thick Fat and its solid bulk, performs reasonably well against some of the fire and ground types that would threaten Aegislash. Its solid bulk and typing allows it to 1v1 a lot of Pokémon effectively, and it being immune to basically everything Chansey can throw at it has definitely been nice for forcing the pink blob out.
Clefable with Unaware was really good against the significant increase in the number of setup sweepers I've been seeing... until that bug came up making it unusable. Hope this gets fixed soon!
Also, I know it's not actually that great and is pretty much entirely outclassed by Chansey, I just really like eviolite Porygon2. It's still really annoying to kill, and it does take physical hits a bit better than Chansey. Also, having ice beam and nonzero attacking stats allows it to pick up kills against things like gliscor and lando-T.

On the meta as a whole:
To me, the meta seems reasonably balanced so far (since the banning of Kyurem-B), and I look forward to seeing where this format goes from here. I have noticed more setup sweepers running around than in gen 7, which is likely due to the increased availability of boosting moves this gen. I've found Dynamax to be less busted than in non-NatDex formats, but I would definitely not be sad to see it go.

(And just to briefly touch on the apparent controversy, I like that this meta is basically adding everything from gen 8 on top of everything from gen 7, and while I am somewhat indifferent on z-moves I would be very sad to see megas go, as they are practically whole different Pokémon than their non-mega forms, and being unable to dynamax makes running a mega (or z-move) on a Pokémon much more of a cost than it used to be if dynamax sticks around.)
 
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Maybe Mega Evolutions are okay, but I believe that Z-Moves are inherently unfair and give offensive Pokemon the ability to break past the Pokemon they shouldn't be able to. The best example is Normalium Z Giga Impact Kartana. Checks like Mega Venu and Beni that would normally hard wall Kart can get yeeted on the switch in. Another example is Flyinium Z Gyara and Lando. Its clear that neither of them were designed not to have a viable physical flying move in mind for a reason, but Flyinium Z is just a huge middle finger to that balance structure that I believe will be the next "cancer" after dynamax is gone.

Notice how Im kinda referring to last gen's meta? Its still apparent in gen 8; it is clear that the gen 8 pokemon were simply not designed with the intention to use Z moves, Soulblaze + Soul the most glaring example. Kommo O was never intended to exist with both moves in tandem. Thinking of a very possible future in NDOU where dynamax is gone, Hydreigon with Nasty Plot + Darkinium Z or Dragonium Z could become the next Naga. But when z moves were still canon, Hydreigon didn't get Nasty Plot. He didnt have any viable way of boosting afaik in gen 7 and he does now. Another example: Dragapult DD + Dragonium Z; Dragapult is balanced by somewhat middling offensive stats and a lack of a physical ghost move afaik. Z Moves alleviates this. Z Moves is a get out of jail card for any breaker and theyre seldom used at the moment only because mons with z moves can't dynamax; if/when dynamax is suspected I feel like the problem of Z moves will be more apparent and this could have disastrous consequences for the meta. Z moves were the main reason why gen 7 was so disliked and mons like Magearna, Lando-T, Kartana, and Torn were so oppressive.
 
(sorry draft existed and forgot to delete)
Maybe Mega Evolutions are okay, but I believe that Z-Moves are inherently unfair and give offensive Pokemon the ability to break past the Pokemon they shouldn't be able to. The best example is Normalium Z Giga Impact Kartana. Checks like Mega Venu and Beni that would normally hard wall Kart can get yeeted on the switch in. Another example is Flyinium Z Gyara and Lando. Its clear that neither of them were designed not to have a viable physical flying move in mind for a reason, but Flyinium Z is just a huge middle finger to that balance structure that I believe will be the next "cancer" after dynamax is gone.

Notice how Im kinda referring to last gen's meta? Its still apparent in gen 8; it is clear that the gen 8 pokemon were simply not designed with the intention to use Z moves, Soulblaze + Soul the most glaring example. Kommo O was never intended to exist with both moves in tandem. Thinking of a very possible future in NDOU where dynamax is gone, Hydreigon with Nasty Plot + Darkinium Z or Dragonium Z could become the next Naga. But when z moves were still canon, Hydreigon didn't get Nasty Plot. He didnt have any viable way of boosting afaik in gen 7 and he does now. Another example: Dragapult DD + Dragonium Z; Dragapult is balanced by somewhat middling offensive stats and a lack of a physical ghost move afaik. Z Moves alleviates this. Z Moves is a get out of jail card for any breaker and theyre seldom used at the moment only because mons with z moves can't dynamax; if/when dynamax is suspected I feel like the problem of Z moves will be more apparent and this could have disastrous consequences for the meta. Z moves were the main reason why gen 7 was so disliked and mons like Magearna, Lando-T, Kartana, and Torn were so oppressive.
Before this gets deleted because of earlier posts (Funbot28), I find it amusing that you find Z-MOVES broken, rather than dynamax, which is a direct upgrade to it. Dynamax is inherently unfair and lets offensive Pokemon sweep teams thanks to snowball. Dynamax Kartana is so much more deadly than any Z-Move-using Kartana thanks to its ability to boost its speed, rack up Attack boosts as it gets KOs thanks to its 181 attack and grassy terrain, and then just sweep. I find Z-Moves to be an interesting addition actually atm, given that to use them you need to give up the more broken dynamax. All of the users you mentioned can use Dynamax to just sweep.

In any case, I would rather not see z-moves and megas removed just because some people didn't like them in gen 7 and now see an opportunity to ensure their removal in gen 8 natdex.
 
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(sorry draft existed and forgot to delete)

Before this gets deleted because of earlier posts (Funbot28), I find it amusing that you find Z-MOVES broken, rather than dynamax, which is a direct upgrade to it. Dynamax is inherently unfair and lets offensive Pokemon sweep teams thanks to snowball. Dynamax Kartana is so much more deadly than any Z-Move-using Kartana thanks to its ability to boost its speed, rack up Attack boosts as it gets KOs thanks to its 181 attack and grassy terrain, and then just sweep. I find Z-Moves to be an interesting addition actually atm, given that to use them you need to give up the more broken dynamax. All of the users you mentioned can use Dynamax to just sweep.

In any case, I would rather not see z-moves and megas removed just because some people didn't like them in gen 7 and now see an opportunity to ensure their removal in gen 8 natdex.
If it wasn't heavily implied already and explicitly made clear by my earlier comments I believe that dynamax too is overpowered (i called for a quickban on dynamax like twice in the last page). Without Dynamax z moves will just become a bigger problem as people wont have any incentive not to run them. We already have case in point Kommo as an example on how Z Moves directly conflicts the changes many Pokemon are receiving.
 
If it wasn't heavily implied already and explicitly made clear by my earlier comments I believe that dynamax too is overpowered (i called for a quickban on dynamax like twice in the last page). Without Dynamax z moves will just become a bigger problem as people wont have any incentive not to run them. We already have case in point Kommo as an example on how Z Moves directly conflicts the changes many Pokemon are receiving.
Fair point on dynamax, in retrospect, I was pulling a "what about ___" tactic.

Okay, Kommo-O is a great example of that. +2 all stats over two turns with the cost of 33% max HP the first turn followed by a +1 185 BP Clangorous Soulblaze that then results in +2 all stats (and probably an ohko), followed by a sweep where kommo-o is essentially dynamaxed for the purposes of receiving damage, is something that was clearly not intended.

But I think that's just an exception, rather than the rule; no other returning Pokémon got a whole move to compensate for their loss of a signature Z-Move off the top of my head. Rather than banning z-moves, it may just be better to complex ban that combination (Kommo-O + Kommonium Z + Clangorous Soul). That interaction was never intended and their interaction is just....ridiculous. If something is busted with a z-move, it may be better to see if they are unhealthy for the meta as a whole rather than just blaming the mechanic.

Just for the record, my real position is that I don't like the idea of cherry-picking mechanics. If z-moves were removed, I would rather them be formally banned rather than just removed from natdex altogether thanks to implementation decisions. Removing z-moves and not megas is an arbitrary measure (why keep one and not the other?), and a meta without megas is not a true natdex meta imo; those mega evolutions count as Pokémon in their own right.
 

Solaros & Lunaris

Hold that faith that is made of steel
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Off-topic from this debate of Dynamax/Z etc., I thought I’d share a core I’d been working with for some time

:volcarona: :hatterene:
During SM and ORAS, Mega Diancie was often paired with Volcarona because it deterred Stealth Rock and was free to spam attacks once Volcarona removed Steels like Mega Metagross and Ferrothorn. Volcarona was often paired with a Pex abuser like MegaZam or Reuniclus, who turned the urchin into setup fodder. Guess who deters SR, turns Pex into fodder and is a CM user? Hatterene. While lacking Stealth Rock and Earth Power to beat Heatran, Hatterene frees up the Mega slot while also having Mystical Fire so that Steels that cripple Volcarona (T-Wave Ferro/Brave Bird Corvi) aren’t going to get past it. HDB is also free to stay around as a long term check to non-Knock Maw and Sciz and a counter to Bulu. I’ve also added a team so you can test this core out, and I might add a desc later. Added a description, feel free to roast it.

:volcarona: :hatterene: :landorus-therian: :rotom-wash: :ferrothorn: :garchomp-mega:
https://pokepast.es/ea485863ef0b540a
So as stated before, the core I wanted to build around was Hatterene + Volcarona. Next I added Rotom-W and Scarf Landorus-T, which gave me two Ground immunities, an Electric immunity, two VoltTurners to bring Hat and MegaChomp in and two Defoggers. The anti-hazard game on this team pretty much means Volcarona is keeping at high healthranges, which is great. Ferrothorn was added next as a Water, Psychic and Electric check, which makes the Rain matchup way easier on Rotom. Ferrothorn also gave me Spikes, which I felt comfortable with given Hatt loves Spikes, and completed an FWG defensive core that had good offensive presence. I still needed a Rocker and wanted a strong offensive presence that could also check Heatran, so Mega Garchomp was nice to round out the squad. It gave me Stealth Rock, coverage that was impossible to switch into and some non-passive bulk to fall back on in faster games. The team struggles with opposing Hatterene I feel, as Mystical Fire SpA drops mean that Volcarona cannot setup against it. Max Airstream Kartana is also a hard MU, but Dyna is getting banned so its fine.
 
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Fair point on dynamax, in retrospect, I was pulling a "what about ___" tactic.

Okay, Kommo-O is a great example of that. +2 all stats over two turns with the cost of 33% max HP the first turn followed by a +1 185 BP Clangorous Soulblaze that then results in +2 all stats (and probably an ohko), followed by a sweep where kommo-o is essentially dynamaxed for the purposes of receiving damage, is something that was clearly not intended.

But I think that's just an exception, rather than the rule; no other returning Pokémon got a whole move to compensate for their loss of a signature Z-Move off the top of my head. Rather than banning z-moves, it may just be better to complex ban that combination (Kommo-O + Kommonium Z + Clangorous Soul). That interaction was never intended and their interaction is just....ridiculous. If something is busted with a z-move, it may be better to see if they are unhealthy for the meta as a whole rather than just blaming the mechanic.

Just for the record, my real position is that I don't like the idea of cherry-picking mechanics. If z-moves were removed, I would rather them be formally banned rather than just removed from natdex altogether thanks to implementation decisions. Removing z-moves and not megas is an arbitrary measure (why keep one and not the other?), and a meta without megas is not a true natdex meta imo; those mega evolutions count as Pokémon in their own right.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm 200% sure that said player will not just watch you boost over 2 turns twiddling their thumbs.
Then you are prone to being revenge killed by the one and only Ditto who then proceeds to sweep your team; there is very much counterplay to this 'busted' Kommo-O. If you don't like it so much run something like a Tapu or Fairy(looking at Clefable). Fairy hits 4x as hard against Kommo-O and prevents Clangorous Soulblaze.
Plus if you switch into a fairy on Clangorous Soulblaze they wasted their Z-Move and are about to be one-shot; I'm pretty sure Poison Jab doesn't OHKO any Tapu except for Bulu or maybe Koko, because Clefable and Lele and Fini are fully capable of surviving and one-shotting back.
tl;dr use fairies
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm 200% sure that said player will not just watch you boost over 2 turns twiddling their thumbs.
Then you are prone to being revenge killed by the one and only Ditto who then proceeds to sweep your team; there is very much counterplay to this 'busted' Kommo-O. If you don't like it so much run something like a Tapu or Fairy(looking at Clefable). Fairy hits 4x as hard against Kommo-O and prevents Clangorous Soulblaze.
Plus if you switch into a fairy on Clangorous Soulblaze they wasted their Z-Move and are about to be one-shot; I'm pretty sure Poison Jab doesn't OHKO any Tapu except for Bulu or maybe Koko, because Clefable and Lele and Fini are fully capable of surviving and one-shotting back.
tl;dr use fairies
While there is counterplay to DoubleClang Kommo-O it's still an incredibly powerful set. Clefable is good against it but as the meta stands it has worse problems where its physical bulk has largely been power creeped by dynamax. All four of the Tapus have to watch out for Metagross and/or Excadrill, both of which are insanely common and are likely to be on the same team as Kommo-O since they both have roles on hyper offensive builds. Theoretically it shouldnt be hard to bait Clef and Tapu who are honestly trashed by hyper offense and then clean out with Kommo-O.

It's not nearly as powerful as dynamax and because of dynamax it doesnt appear to seem as powerful as it is (many mons can prolly dyna to live a +2 Scales) but once dynamax is out of the picture I can see it becoming very centralizing. Basically Metagross's presence in the meta means that fairies simply cant fuck around like last gen, and when Melmetal is enabled again Kommo-O has like six viable cores to bait in Haze Pex or Fairies.
 
I feel like the very existence of Clangorous Soul as a move is the strongest possible evidence that Game Freak intends to Z-moves to go away...
I don't think that you can actually say that. I think we can all agree that Clangorous Soul and Clangorous Soulblaze were never intended to exist together, and Soul was created to make up for Kommo-o losing access to its Z-move, which was an important part of its identity as a Pokémon. However, the fact that they decided to create something to fill in for the Z-move in the first place could just as easily imply that they had intended for Kommo-o to always have access to its Z-move and created Soul when they realized they wouldn't be having Z-moves in the next game (which is kinda supported by the fact that Soul directly references the Z-move's name). We can't judge their long-term intentions, we only know the decision they made for this gen without Z-moves. Now, I think a lot of people see having access to both as a problem (I haven't used it myself or played against it enough to be sure, but on paper it does seem too strong), and imo the best solution is to rule that Kommo-o can only hold Kommonium-Z if it doesn't know Soul. I don't think that we should remove Z-moves arbitrarily based on one powerful interaction and our perceptions of Game Freak's "intentions" in a format that is inherently against their supposed "intentions" already by including all of the Pokémon, especially since Z-moves are pretty much fine on their own and just strictly inferior to Dynamax outside of Z-status moves and the few like Kommo-o's that have extra bonuses. This format is about including things, bringing forward everything that was not brought forward from gen 7 to gen 8. If people have a problem with Z-moves as a mechanic (which I've seen some people do), we ban Dynamax first because it does all the same things but better and then we can discuss if Z-moves are healthy (which I think they are).

Also, on the subject of answers to Kommo-o, my boy Aegislash resists both of Kommo-o's STABs (immune to fighting) and can wear it down with Toxic or hit it through its buffs with Sacred Sword as long as Kommo-o isn't packing the right coverage (I think they usually run Poison Jab to hit fairies, which Aegislash is also immune to), while also doing well against the attacks that would threaten your fairy-types.
 
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I don't think that you can actually say that. I think we can all agree that Clangorous Soul and Clangorous Soulblaze were never intended to exist together, and Soul was created to make up for Kommo-o losing access to its Z-move, which was an important part of its identity as a Pokémon. However, the fact that they decided to create something to fill in for the Z-move in the first place could just as easily imply that they had intended for Kommo-o to always have access to its Z-move and created Soul when they realized they wouldn't be having Z-moves in the next game (which is kinda supported by the fact that Soul directly references the Z-move's name). We can't judge their long-term intentions, we only know the decision they made for this gen without Z-moves. Now, I think a lot of people see having access to both as a problem (I haven't used it myself or played against it enough to be sure, but on paper it does seem too strong), and imo the best solution is to rule that Kommo-o can only hold Kommonium-Z if it doesn't know Soul. I don't think that we should remove Z-moves arbitrarily based on one powerful interaction and our perceptions of Game Freak's "intentions" in a format that is inherently against their supposed "intentions" already by including all of the Pokémon, especially since Z-moves are pretty much fine on their own and just strictly inferior to Dynamax outside of Z-status moves and the few like Kommo-o's that have extra bonuses. This format is about including things, bringing forward everything that was not brought forward from gen 7 to gen 8. If people have a problem with Z-moves as a mechanic (which I've seen some people do), we ban Dynamax first because it does all the same things but better and then we can discuss if Z-moves are healthy (which I think they are).

Also, on the subject of answers to Kommo-o, my boy Aegislash resists both of Kommo-o's STABs (immune to fighting) and can wear it down with Toxic or hit it through its buffs with Sacred Sword as long as Kommo-o isn't packing the right coverage (I think they usually run Poison Jab to hit fairies, which Aegislash is also immune to), while also doing well against the attacks that would threaten your fairy-types.
I said this is evidence. You say this tier is already against GF's intentions by bringing forward mons that aren't available but that's the point of the format. Bringing forward random mechanics from previous gens is not what most people would consider necessary to run a "national dex" tier. Will this continue indefinitely? Will Gen 9 still have Z-moves even if the full nat dex is included in those games? Why don't we use old moody mechanics or unerf Aegislash if we're doing random stuff from Gen 7? My point is there is no connection between having Z-moves and having the full roster and we can make this tier less of a random sweeper fiesta by at least looking at some of the data GF provided us to infer the Z-moves and Dynamax were never supposed to interact...
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Again, this issue is being discussed internally and no more posts should be adressing the topic of what mechanics should be allowed or not. Any more posts discussing the matter will be deleted and possibly infracted.

Any concerns can be directed towards National Dex moderators, but please let's just stay on track here and discuss the current National Dex OU metagame for the time being. Thank you.
 
Oshit its the popo

Ok, so basically my thoughts on the meta:

Darmanitan-Galar
The monkey, as expected, is one of the most centralizing forces in the meta. Unfortunately there are no true counters due to vicarious Ice + Fire coverage and Darm prolly has the highest attack in the game only behind Zacian Crowned, but he isn't quite as oppressive as he is in OU due to more Pokemon being allowed.

Dracovish
Hit hard by loss of Sand Rush, basically mandating it to Scarf at this point, so Tangrowth, Pex, and Ferro check it now. Its still a bitch in rain tho. His existence is why Seis exists which is an achievement itself.

Kommo-O
[redacted]

Mega Metagross
The premier Mega and a top tier offensive threat, Meta essentially invalidates the existence of the Tapus and has great defensive synergy with Zygarde and Hydreigon. Has 4mss but remains invaluable to any team since it simply picks apart stall teams and threatens rain hard with its coverage. It's intrinsically bulky but lacks any defensive measures so usually send it in early to fuck shit up, die, retreat to your defensive core, then initiate again with your next sweeper. For that reason it should be your mega of choice on balance.

Mega Blastoise
Shell Smash has turned this into the ultimate screens sweeper. After one shell smash Blastoise can cleanly 6-0 behind screens since its bulk remains. Its not as flawless as Meta: Pex handles it quite easily from what I've seen and priority yeets it but Blastoise, for once, is wayyyy better than Venusaur and Charizard.

Zygarde
Losing PC has restricted Zygarde to purely offensive roles but he remains incredibly viable due to the spam of Thousand Waves which is very hard to wall. Great defensive typing, priority, and bulk do well in rendering Garchump obselete. He cant run Thousand Waves anymore nor is Sub DD nearly as good as it was two weeks ago but he's still the premiere physical dragon afaik.

Melmetal
By the gamemode's own rules he should be enabled but anyways Melmetal is basically Mega Metagross Lite. When he returns and you already have another Mega Melmetal will be a good replacement for Metagross.

Landorus-T
The Gen 8 OU plebs frequently dismiss Nat Dex as "Lando and Magearna Land" but thats not true lol. Darm has pretty much killed any defensive presence lando has, but hes still good as discount Gyara Airstrike. Looking forward to seeing Lando-L unbanned, hes cool looking.

Dragapult
He's good but lacks any particular tools to make him pop out in NDOU. His flaws in beta OU are the same here - no ghost stab, squishy. His special attack is rather low for specs which is a massive thorn for him.

Lucha and Koko
Hawlucha remains incredibly OP with dynamax due to max knuckle. Fortunately his sweep is easy to see coming and prepare for. Kept in check by Aegislash, Zapdos, and Corsola.

Corsola
Not quite as powerful as he is in Gen 8 OU since hes crippled by Toxic. Still remains an exemplary physical wall.

Toxapex
The best defensive water type in the game has gotten slightly worse since it doesnt benefit from dynamax and now risks 2hkos from many new breakers (Darm and Vesh). The existence of Zygarde and Metagross also threaten it, but at the end of the day, its still Toxapex and is still mandatory on like every team.

Magearna
She's good, but not quite as good as last gen since now she is extremely liable to be taken out by dynamax users. Finds a niche in screens, but Mega Blastoise does her job better. Still good and has her uses.

Barraskewda
Never use, Mega Swampert is strictly better.

Mega Swampert
Never use, Barraskewda is strictly better.

Tyranitar
Dracovish losing Sand Rush is honestly a fatal nerf to sand at this point. Sandaconda is completely useless and Hippowdon has his own problems but Band Ttar is still good, and the old Ttar + Drill core will never die.

Excadrill
Rapid Spin changes are a yuge buff to Exca and allow it to function outside of Sand. Hes also a really good dynamaxer since he can set up his own sand. Use for the offensive potential and role compression.

Seismitoad
Lets be honest, hes only used to yeet on Vish. Like he lacks recovery which is really bad for a Pokemon that has zero offensive presence and rather middling bulk. He does have high utility and tremendously counters rain. Power Whip is pretty useless since Base 95 attack is pure ass. Due to role compression hes not bad at all however.

Corviknight
Bulk Up is an incredibly annoying set, and works on Corviknight since he has the bulk of Celesteela and the actual usefulness of skarm. Taunt, Defog, Bulk Up, all really good and if you dont have a way to deal with Corviknight youre SOL. Luckily Zapdos exists.

Zapdos
Honestly Zapdos is a top tier defensive staple that im surprised no one is using. Walls and takes out Corviknight and Kartana, scares out Gyara, and is a huge threat to rain. Does decently well in defensive dynamaxing since dynamax discharge sets terrain and does a ton even when uninvested.

Volcarona
To be honest Heavy Duty Boots are shit on Volc. If you have HDB you lose out on too much power which is bad. However he is a good dynamaxer since he benefits from a lot of the stat boosts.

Rotom-Wash
Zygarde means that Rotom is no longer good as your team ground counter, and physical power creep means that he can get 2HKO'd by lots of shit now. Still Rotom-Wash, so still good .

Cinderace
Tbh I dont know why the fuck this furry is used. Even with Libero its stats are middling and she lacks the versatility of Greninja. I guess Court Change is good? But like just fucking use Defog jfc. Pro Ball is good but for a physically offensive fire type scarf Darm blows it out of the water and darm is not even a fire type.

Hatterne
Hatterne is a really good Trick Room setter and a really good Dynamaxer and serves as further proof of power creep. Ostensibly Mega Garde with Magic Bounce and a superior movepool, Bulk, fapfood and utility with rivaling offenses, Hatterne is poised to replace either Cresselia or Mage as one of your backup TR setters.

Mega Mawile
Due to dyna, a +2 Sucker Punch is a joke now, plus Psychic Terrain is everywhere. Mega Maw only really sees use on TR now since her stats are actually quite badly optimized and she cant dynamax. Remember when Maw was scary guys?

Grimmsnarl
For some reason Grimmsnarl now outclasses Klefki as a screens setter, prolly due to an actual offensive presence and G-Max Snooze which is really annoying. Cool mon that I will prolly use once PS finally gets the fucking gen 8 sprites.

Avalugg
Despite the multitude of buffs he received, he just cant cut it. He deals decent damage now and will prolly last to the late game now that he gets Timbs but fundamentally ice as a type will never have a viable defensive mon as long as the type itself isn't buffed. I remember when the gen first released and ppl went nuts thinking hail was finally good but alas eiscue is actually shit and Vanilluxe is also shit.

Aegislash
Aegislash received direct nerfs this gen that make him a stalwart check to lucha sweeps and shit. A good breaker thats not as OP it was in previous gens as the decrease in power and bulk is honestly huge. He has zero recovery which is pretty big for a mon you need to keep healthy to take out certain shit like lucha or corsola. Hes good now but not broken by any stretch.

Kartana
Airstream and Max Knuckle are absolute cancer on this mon, and combined with Beast Boost, make it able to sweep after one slip up. Honestly straight broken but I use Zapdos so I dont have this problem.

Gayrados
Kart but water type, so harder to wall. I honestly dont know any good counterplay against him since he has the coverage to ohko you in any situation and the typing, Bulk and power to back it up. I expect him to fade into obscurity after [redacted]

Salamence
Kart but water type but dragon type so worse by virtue of shittier defensive typing. Still broken of course.

Dugtrio
Funnily enough dugtrio is not remotely broken in this meta since his stats are so bad and he is so predictable. He doesn't benefit at all from dynamax since it doubles his HP and he has like base 30 HP.
He lacks the strength to KO most of his targets without band and even so a simple dynamax is an ez clap against him.

Hydreigon
Has a lot of defensive utility nowadays with Levitate. Nasty Plot is good but base 98 speed isn't. Good for balance since hes actually pretty bulky and has a perfect offensive movepool and can nuke pretty well and makes for a good defogger. Watch out for VoltTurn because he really is fucked over by that. Overall worse than Guzzlord in every single aspect of his design but still good.


Um, I think that's about it, Epstein didn't kill himself thats my opinion on the meta rn, Im looking forward to seeing Genesect being unbanned soon, and then lando-l and maybe Pheromosa. If you disagree with me or find a fault in my logic please call me out because i want to start a discussion that moves away from meta bashing.
 
I know we probably should be talking about the current meta, however research is still ongoing.

That said, Genesect is name that's getting thrown around quite a lot when it comes to mons that should be unbanned. I for one don't have an opinion on it, however I am curious on learning from those who favour its reintroduction, What has changed to make it manageable?

To me, it seems like it would be doing Genesect things I.e. use it's versatility, as well as its ability to finesse teams by grabbing momentum with U-turn from start to finish and in most of those occasions put its team in a pole position. What's more? it's not a weak mon with download; one of its already sizeable offensive stats get an increase which allows it to apply more pressure and where applicable break cores. To conclude, if we were to use early gen 7 algorithms as means of predicting it's proformance it will continue to be a centralising figure

Unless of course, I'm indulging once again in my favourite form of exercise, which is jumping to conclusions
 
Cinderace
Tbh I dont know why the fuck this furry is used. Even with Libero its stats are middling and she lacks the versatility of Greninja. I guess Court Change is good? But like just fucking use Defog jfc. Pro Ball is good but for a physically offensive fire type scarf Darm blows it out of the water and darm is not even a fire type.
While Cinderace is definitely no Greninja, I think you may be underestimating the power of Court Change in comparing it to Defog. If your team doesn't set hazards itself, it's not only defog but gives you all of your opponent's hazard setup for free. With just the base level of having Stealth Rock on you it's Defog that also simultaneously sets your own rocks, and if they set up anything else (spikes, tspikes, or sticky web) it becomes absolutely insane. Plus boots lets Cinderace be unharmed by the hazards on the switch in, and its typing and coverage (with pyro ball and high jump kick) let it threaten common bulky hazard setters like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, rocks Chansey, etc., and it can U-turn out on unfavorable matchups after it's done its work. It's got a very specific use, but it's quite powerful at what it does. (Also, Court Change steals Screens as well, which seems to be a somewhat overlooked aspect of the move, and from what I've heard screens are more common this gen).
 
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Guard

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Played meta, thoughts:

:kartana::salamence::landorus-therian: Dynamax :dragonite::gyarados::hawlucha:
The sooner we get rid of this mechanic, the better. Meta is very unforgiving against defensive play, thus limiting healthy growth, and even a fool would conclude this to be the main culprit. Z-moves and Mega's on the other hand are fine for now.

:ditto:
Ditto is a staple presence in BO, Balance and Stall, compressing checking prowess like no other in this offense-heavy metagame.

:landorus-therian:
The defensive set falls short due to the abominable power creep at this moment, though it still works decently on Volt Turn. Scarf faces direct competition from Ditto. Its most potent set is definitely SD + Fly due to Dynamax, more so behind screens. I'd hesitate to still call it the king of the meta though.

:kartana:
Kartana is hands down the most potent Dynamax abuser with SD + Leaf Blade, Sacred Sword and Aerial Ace, leaving it solely checked by Ditto. The Scarf variant is also able to initiate its own sweep rather easily, while being slightly less prone to Ditto.

:magearna:
Shift Gear + Weakness Policy variants are extremely potent behind Screens. SG fares very well in general in this offensive meta, scaring plenty of frail Pokemon out in order to set up and clean from there.

:excadrill::grimmsnarl:
Excadrill and Grimmsnarl are the faces of HO, being the reliable hazard and screens setter respectively. Both are upgrades from the past, with Excadrill free to run Toxic and Grimmsnarl being strictly better than Tapu Koko.

:heatran:
Heatran is quite a potent rocks setter, being able to set rocks against the majority of the metagame due to naturally beating defoggers such as Tornadus-Therian and Corviknight while luring the likes of Rotom-Wash and Tapu Fini with Max Overgrowth. Dynamax’ing in general allows it to trap a lot more threats than it used to with Magma Storm. It does provide Vish with free switch-ins though.

:greninja-ash::greninja:
Both Ash-Gren and Gren remain potent forces due to their good matchup against offense, though Ash-Gren faces strict competition from Vish. However, it still has its merits in the current meta with access to strong priority.

Protean Gren is able to lure a good portion of the metagame with Life Orb boosted Max Move coverage, having access to STAB Max Quake, Max Overgrowth and Max Mindstorm. It is once again a great offensive hazard setter, due to its capability of beating every relevant defogger.

:toxapex:
Toxapex feels worse than it was in SM/USM due to the fact that it gets overpowered by Max Moves and is unable to check Vish sufficiently. It isn’t bad by any means, but it doesn’t fulfil the roles you’d expect it to as the bulky water type in a team.

:aegislash:
Aegislash finally feels like a healthy addition to the metagame (in any case, it is far from broken right now), which is exciting, as it allows unprecedented ways of teambuilding due to its unique set of resistances. It still does cause 50-50s, but in a less extreme fashion than it used to.

:dugtrio:
Dugtrio also doesn’t feel overbearing right now, but will most probably get better if Dynamax were to be banned. It still has a high viability ceiling though, since it has the potential to drastically alter the outcome of a game if one were to predict correctly. I haven’t tried Dugtrio Stall yet, so I can’t comment on whether that is good or not.

:dracovish:
Dracovish is the most effective wallbreaker we have seen in a long time, being able to brutally 2OHKO even some of the sturdiest of resists. This will definitely be an influencing presence in the long term, mostly on the defensive metagame.

:darmanitan-galar:
Darmanitan stands out as another strong addition to our pool of viable Pokemon. Band is less effective in NDOU due to its less than stellar speed, but Scarf has everything going for it and is able to frequently clean up in the late-game.

:tapu-koko::tapu-lele:
These two are nerfed more than the other Tapu’s due to the terrain nerf, because they don’t really have strong defensive niches they can fall back on, now that their offensive prowess is less effective. Moreover, Koko is strictly outclassed by Grimmsnarl as a Screens setter in non-Hawlucha HO.

:tapu-bulu:
I’ve found bulky Tapu Bulu with Def investment instead of Spd very effective lately, due to its ability to check Vish and Zygarde sufficiently while still serving as a good Ash-Gren and Koko check. Offensive Scarf and Band sets are still appealing too, especially since it can get rid of many of its checks through Dynamax.

:metagross-mega:
This is the best mega by a landslide, acting as a glue for many teams while providing immense offensive pressure from the get go. I believe a set of Meteor Mash/Thunder Punch/Ice Punch/EQ is the best, but I’ve seen many variations, ranging from Rocks to Rock Polish.

:blastoise-mega:
Blastoise is by far the best mega on HO, due to its access to Shell Smash, a ginormous SpA and access to stellar coverage, for which it effectively gets a STAB boost. Nothing, except for Ditto, really checks it since traditional Water-checks such as Ferro and Pex are hit extremely hard by Aura Sphere and Dragon/Dark Pulse respectively.

:reuniclus:
I don’t know whether people have caught on, but this gets Stored Power now, meaning that it’s an exponentially more potent wincon and finally isn’t walled anymore by Unaware users if it opts for Double Dance.

:torkoal: Sun :venusaur:
Venusaur also got huge buffs in Weather Ball and Earth Power, which drastically boosts its offensive capabilities under Sun. Sun in general is probably worth it to experiment with this generation since we finally got a decent hazard remover in Boots Torkoal and many abusers are able to reset Sun with Dynamax.

:lopunny-mega:
Scrappy being immune to Intimidate is huge since this improves MLop’s mathup against Balance/BO quite a bit. It also means that it doesn’t have to dedicate Ice Punch for Lando-T, leaving a moveslot for the crucial Quick Attack in the current meta.

:kommo-o:
I really don’t understand the reasoning people are giving for a Kommonium Z + Clangorous Soul clause. Sure, they were never meant to be together, but the same can be said for NP Darkinium Z Hydreigon or Shell Smash Mega Blastoise. I don’t believe the community should resort to a complex clause here. If both together are overbearing, simply ban either Clangorous Soul or Kommonium Z, akin to UU in USM.

:corviknight:
This shuts down so many rockers with Taunt + Pressure Defog, it’s seriously giving me Equilibra flashbacks. U-turn is extremely handy too, finally providing us a slow pivot with reliable recovery and good typing. Sub + BU is a very potent wincon too, especially if you were to Dynamax and collect Spe boosts.

Teams I've used to resounding success:

Vish BO
:dracovish::tapu-bulu::heatran::ditto::tornadus-therian::metagross-mega:
BuluTranVish basically provides you with the infamous Water-Fire-Grass core and the Dragon-Fairy-Steel core simultaneously, giving you a very solid backbone. Bulu is maximized in Def to properly check Vish and Zyg, while providing Grassy Terrain for Tran and MMeta, though you should keep in mind that MMeta's EQ damage is halved too. Ditto was added to improve the offense matchup and LO Torn-T is the defogger of choice, being able to take advantage of Dynamax, providing U-turn to bring Vish in and breaking bulky grasses for it. MMeta glues the team together by solidifying the Psychic/Fairy matchup and easily cleans up late game as soon as Vish is done.

Reuniclus Balance
:dugtrio::reuniclus::gastrodon::corviknight::ditto::greninja:
This team basically revolves around Reuniclus. Dugtrio provides irreplaceable support by trapping Taunt Heatran and Dark-types with Reversal. Toxic is clutch in many situations, since it allows Reuniclus to outlast Dark-types it can't touch otherwise. Since Duggy is Focus Sash, I added Corviknight, since it's the most reliable defogger. Gastrodon was added to check water and electric types in one slot, while somewhat deterring Fishious Rend spam. It also complements Corviknight perfectly. Ditto improves the offense matchup and Greninja provides Toxic Spikes for Reuniclus, while beating all defoggers with Ice Beam/Max Overgrowth.

All in all, enjoying this meta the most of all. Would love to see Genesect/Landorus-I/Pheromosa/Deoxys-D unbanned and Dynamax banned.
 
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I know we probably should be talking about the current meta, however research is still ongoing.

That said, Genesect is name that's getting thrown around quite a lot when it comes to mons that should be unbanned. I for one don't have an opinion on it, however I am curious on learning from those who favour its reintroduction, What has changed to make it manageable?

To me, it seems like it would be doing Genesect things I.e. use it's versatility, as well as its ability to finesse teams by grabbing momentum with U-turn from start to finish and in most of those occasions put its team in a pole position. What's more? it's not a weak mon with download; one of its already sizeable offensive stats get an increase which allows it to apply more pressure and where applicable break cores. To conclude, if we were to use early gen 7 algorithms as means of predicting it's proformance it will continue to be a centralising figure

Unless of course, I'm indulging once again in my favourite form of exercise, which is jumping to conclusions
I know we probably should be talking about the current meta, however research is still ongoing.

That said, Genesect is name that's getting thrown around quite a lot when it comes to mons that should be unbanned. I for one don't have an opinion on it, however I am curious on learning from those who favour its reintroduction, What has changed to make it manageable?

To me, it seems like it would be doing Genesect things I.e. use it's versatility, as well as its ability to finesse teams by grabbing momentum with U-turn from start to finish and in most of those occasions put its team in a pole position. What's more? it's not a weak mon with download; one of its already sizeable offensive stats get an increase which allows it to apply more pressure and where applicable break cores. To conclude, if we were to use early gen 7 algorithms as means of predicting it's proformance it will continue to be a centralising figure

Unless of course, I'm indulging once again in my favourite form of exercise, which is jumping to conclusions
Genesect was banned because of his coverage and use of Download, but Darmanitan is simply superior to him in the Scarf apartment, even considering the fact that one is physical and one is mixed. Due to dynamax, download isnt as scary as it used to be and even without dynamax Genesect is just demoted to being a U-Turn bot all game.
Played meta, thoughts:

:kartana::salamence::landorus-therian: Dynamax :dragonite::gyarados::hawlucha:
The sooner we get rid of this mechanic, the better. Meta is very unforgiving against defensive play, thus limiting healthy growth, and even a fool would conclude this to be the main culprit. Z-moves and Mega's on the other hand are fine for now.

:ditto:
Ditto is a staple presence in BO, Balance and Stall, compressing checking prowess like no other in this offense-heavy metagame.

:landorus-therian:
The defensive set falls short due to the abominable power creep at this moment, though it still works decently on Volt Turn. Scarf faces direct competition from Ditto. Its most potent set is definitely SD + Fly due to Dynamax, more so behind screens. I'd hesitate to still call it the king of the meta though.

:kartana:
Kartana is hands down the most potent Dynamax abuser with SD + Leaf Blade, Sacred Sword and Aerial Ace, leaving it solely checked by Ditto. The Scarf variant is also able to initiate its own sweep rather easily, while being slightly less prone to Ditto.

:magearna:
Shift Gear + Weakness Policy variants are extremely potent behind Screens. SG fares very well in general in this offensive meta, scaring plenty of frail Pokemon out in order to set up and clean from there.

:excadrill::grimmsnarl:
Excadrill and Grimmsnarl are the faces of HO, being the reliable hazard and screens setter respectively. Both are upgrades from the past, with Excadrill free to run Toxic and Grimmsnarl being strictly better than Tapu Koko.

:heatran:
Heatran is quite a potent rocks setter, being able to set rocks against the majority of the metagame due to naturally beating defoggers such as Tornadus-Therian and Corviknight while luring the likes of Rotom-Wash and Tapu Fini with Max Overgrowth. Dynamax’ing in general allows it to trap a lot more threats than it used to with Magma Storm. It does provide Vish with free switch-ins though.

:greninja-ash::greninja:
Both Ash-Gren and Gren remain potent forces due to their good matchup against offense, though Ash-Gren faces strict competition from Vish. However, it still has its merits in the current meta with access to strong priority.

Protean Gren is able to lure a good portion of the metagame with Life Orb boosted Max Move coverage, having access to STAB Max Quake, Max Overgrowth and Max Mindstorm. It is once again a great offensive hazard setter, due to its capability of beating every relevant defogger.

:toxapex:
Toxapex feels worse than it was in SM/USM due to the fact that it gets overpowered by Max Moves and is unable to check Vish sufficiently. It isn’t bad by any means, but it doesn’t fulfil the roles you’d expect it to as the bulky water type in a team.

:aegislash:
Aegislash finally feels like a healthy addition to the metagame (in any case, it is far from broken right now), which is exciting, as it allows unprecedented ways of teambuilding due to its unique set of resistances. It still does cause 50-50s, but in a less extreme fashion than it used to.

:dugtrio:
Dugtrio also doesn’t feel overbearing right now, but will most probably get better if Dynamax were to be banned. It still has a high viability ceiling though, since it has the potential to drastically alter the outcome of a game if one were to predict correctly. I haven’t tried Dugtrio Stall yet, so I can’t comment on whether that is good or not.

:dracovish:
Dracovish is the most effective wallbreaker we have seen in a long time, being able to brutally 2OHKO even some of the sturdiest of resists. This will definitely be an influencing presence in the long term, mostly on the defensive metagame.

:darmanitan-galar:
Darmanitan stands out as another strong addition to our pool of viable Pokemon. Band is less effective in NDOU due to its less than stellar speed, but Scarf has everything going for it and is able to frequently clean up in the late-game.

:tapu-koko::tapu-lele:
These two are nerfed more than the other Tapu’s due to the terrain nerf, because they don’t really have strong defensive niches they can fall back on, now that their offensive prowess is less effective. Moreover, Koko is strictly outclassed by Grimmsnarl as a Screens setter in non-Hawlucha HO.

:tapu-bulu:
I’ve found bulky Tapu Bulu with Def investment instead of Spd very effective lately, due to its ability to check Vish and Zygarde sufficiently while still serving as a good Ash-Gren and Koko check. Offensive Scarf and Band sets are still appealing too, especially since it can get rid of many of its checks through Dynamax.

:metagross-mega:
This is the best mega by a landslide, acting as a glue for many teams while providing immense offensive pressure from the get go. I believe a set of Meteor Mash/Thunder Punch/Ice Punch/EQ is the best, but I’ve seen many variations, ranging from Rocks to Rock Polish.

:blastoise-mega:
Blastoise is by far the best mega on HO, due to its access to Shell Smash, a ginormous SpA and access to stellar coverage, for which it effectively gets a STAB boost. Nothing, except for Ditto, really checks it since traditional Water-checks such as Ferro and Pex are hit extremely hard by Aura Sphere and Dragon/Dark Pulse respectively.

:reuniclus:
I don’t know whether people have caught on, but this gets Stored Power now, meaning that it’s an exponentially more potent wincon and finally isn’t walled anymore by Unaware users if it opts for Double Dance.

:torkoal: Sun :venusaur:
Venusaur also got huge buffs in Weather Ball and Earth Power, which drastically boosts its offensive capabilities under Sun. Sun in general is probably worth it to experiment with this generation since we finally got a decent hazard remover in Boots Torkoal and many abusers are able to reset Sun with Dynamax.

:lopunny-mega:
Scrappy being immune to Intimidate is huge since this improves MLop’s mathup against Balance/BO quite a bit. It also means that it doesn’t have to dedicate Ice Punch for Lando-T, leaving a moveslot for the crucial Quick Attack in the current meta.

:kommo-o:
I really don’t understand the reasoning people are giving for a Kommonium Z + Clangorous Soul clause. Sure, they were never meant to be together, but the same can be said for NP Darkinium Z Hydreigon or Shell Smash Mega Blastoise. I don’t believe the community should resort to a complex clause here. If both together are overbearing, simply ban either Clangorous Soul or Kommonium Z, akin to UU in USM.

:corviknight:
This shuts down so many rockers with Taunt + Pressure Defog, it’s seriously giving me Equilibra flashbacks. U-turn is extremely handy too, finally providing us a slow pivot with reliable recovery and good typing. Sub + BU is a very potent wincon too, especially if you were to Dynamax and collect Spe boosts.

Teams I've used to resounding success:

Vish BO
:dracovish::tapu-bulu::heatran::ditto::tornadus-therian::metagross-mega:
BuluTranVish basically provides you with the infamous Water-Fire-Grass core and the Dragon-Fairy-Steel core simultaneously, giving you a very solid backbone. Bulu is maximized in Def to properly check Vish and Zyg, while providing Grassy Terrain for Tran and MMeta. Ditto was added to improve the offense matchup and LO Torn-T is the defogger of choice, being able to take advantage of Dynamax, providing U-turn to bring Vish in and breaking bulky grasses for it. MMeta glues the team together by solidifying the Psychic/Fairy matchup and easily cleans up late game as soon as Vish is done.

Reuniclus Balance
:dugtrio::reuniclus::gastrodon::corviknight::ditto::greninja:
This team basically revolves around Reuniclus. Dugtrio provides irreplaceable support by trapping Taunt Heatran and Dark-types with Reversal. Toxic is clutch in many situations, since it allows Reuniclus to outlast Dark-types it can't touch otherwise. Since Duggy is Focus Sash, I added Corviknight, since it's the most reliable defogger. Gastrodon was added to check water and electric types in one slot, while somewhat deterring Fishious Rend spam. It also complements Corviknight perfectly. Ditto improves the offense matchup and Greninja provides Toxic Spikes for Reuniclus, while beating all defoggers with Ice Beam/Max Overgrowth.

All in all, enjoying this meta the most of all. Would love to see Genesect/Landorus-I/Pheromosa/Deoxys-D unbanned and Dynamax banned.
Simply excellent post, I pretty much agree with everything you said. Do you have the moveset for defensive Bulu? That seems really cool honestly
 

Solaros & Lunaris

Hold that faith that is made of steel
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Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up/Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Synthesis/Leech Seed
Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 236 HP / 240 Def / 32 SpD
Impish Nature
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis/Protect

While full PhysDef is great and all, this spread avoids a 2hko from Specs Ash-Gren, which means you can still deal with both Vish and Greninja in case your primary Gren check is in a tough spot.
 
Everytime a new generation begins, people always sleep on this beast

373C960C-F29A-4FA6-9A76-2EB39DEFC302.gif


Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Fire Blast
- Psychic/Ice Beam
- Slack Off
Bro and Mega Bro are both criminally underrated and Anti-meta rn. It offers bulkier teams a fantastic Regen pivot that can counter/check many dynamax abusers like Lando, Lucha, Gyarados, Zygarde, and Mence while also possibly being able to turn against fatter teams due to its naturally good SpA and coverage. Being one of the best Metagross checks since ORAS still remains true this gen. Its the only mon that can possibly take on Darm and Dracovish in one slot.

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 114-136 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 125-147 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


Try Slowbro out this holiday season.
 
in any case, it is far from broken right now
I'm sorry but I gotta heavily disagree with this. While Aegislash might be less broken than in previous gens, the SubTox set is still extremely good and I would go as far as calling it pretty damn broken. It's just able to catch so many obvious checks on the switch like Mandibuzz with Toxic, which completely invalidates them. Behind a Sub, it's gonna need a strong move to be able to break it, but till then u can just safely sit behind it and toxic everything. ditto isnt a counter because either 1. u have up a sub and it cant copy u or 2. it's faster, doesnt kill u because ur in shield form, then u attack it while it's in blade form and kill it. heatran isnt a counter, a soft check at best. tran has no way of recovering HP besides lefties, but it cant keep switching in to shadow ball, and even at then, other sets like CC exists so ur never safe untill aegi attacks. duggy doesnt trap it which is hilarious lol love that ghost typing. mandibuzz isnt a counter because like i just said, it just gets toxicd (taunt is a thing ik but like just catch mandi on the switch nothing else rlly wants to blindly switch into smthng different on an aegi like that). bisharp is like the only (good) counter to subtox because it getting touched by kings shield actually gives it a +1 in the end, but it's still scary to switch in and if aegi has a sub up, u cant even trap it lol. same goes for other mons like ttar/weavile (all these lose to colbur CC too btw, goater set). and actually at this point just use duggy + aegi lol bop bop. offensive checks like lando/dragapult/gengar/grimmsnarl/exca/hydreigon dont like constantly switching into sball or tox lol, and aegi can just switch, or literally take on atk from lando and toxic it lol it's that bulky. like yeah the nerves to it seem pretty nice but subtox is just so nasty and so hard to break thru. i got to #2 on the ladder with this, it's so amazing and it's so hard to prep for aegi, cause any would-be-counter just loses to some dumb set like colbur CC, subtox, specs/band (yes, these are a thing. try them out) etc.
this shit is absolute dumb and believe that it's not good in the tier in the long run. pls get this fucker out of here ASAP
trapping is also still dumb!!!! but ill get onto later
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
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There's something I haven't seen talked about all that much that I think deserves a lot more talking about.



Blacephalon is actually a surprisingly potent offensive threat right now. Specs hits like a freight train as usual, and I suppose Sub+CM should still be ok although I admittedly haven't tried it yet and Hydreigon probably works better in that regard.

Now, Scarf on the other hand is flat out dangerous. It's fast enough to revenge kill Modest Mega Blastoise at +2 which is very nice, and Beast Boost turns this thing into a nice cleaner. It also gets Trick to cripple any walls that might get in its way. Tyranitar destroys it and its frustratingly just slower than a +1 Kartana, but overall its an incredibly potent offensive threat. I'm actually running it with Psychic to hit Kommo-o and set up Psychic Terrain with Max Mindstorm so that Aegislash and things can't revenge kill it.

Pretty short post, I know, but people are sleeping on this thing in my opinion and I wanted to put that out there.
 
Imo Dragapult cant do half of the flexes it does in standard because in Nat Dex a) plenty of powerful Pokemon naturally outspeed it b) Pursuit exists c) viable Normal types exist as well d) more tanky Pokémon that can shrug off its weak hits and retaliate hard exist.

Dragapult is a top tier mon in OU but rn it has too many weird shit going against it here.
Most pokemon don't outspeed Dragapult and it doesn't have ghost moves to use to be blocked by normal types.
 
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