Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
You can run Swords Dance instead of Protect, seeing that Gyarados and Blaziken are almost identical speed, at the end of the turn Blaziken would have +2 Attack and +1 Speed. And you rightfully mention Thunder Punch, as that allows it to hit most of the Bulky Waters supereffectively, snipes Gyarados, and snips things like Mega Charizard Y. I do not know why you think its weak since its main draw is hitting what its weak to it and setting up Terrain. Bringing up Thunder Punch only cements this Pokémon as a broken mon in a dynamaxmetagame that should not be unbanned. Besides, even if it doesnt run Thunder Punch and subsequently has problems handling Guarados, does that mean that its balanced? I find your reasoning troubling, especially since you bring up Pokémon like Azumarill which are simply not relevant in Nat Dex.
if azumarill was not relevant in the format or if he wanted it would be ou, and maybe blaziken and gyarados have a similar speed but about 3 points in speed can make a difference and remember that to carry sword dance and thunder puch would mean no protection, so They can easily defeat in one turn and if you wear sword dance and protection this will be left with little coverage. Pkmn like hawlucha which also has sword dance and you can double the speed with a partner or using the dynanax is not banned, but blaziken if because they do not know how to play against it and how they do not dare to lower it from ubers they can not know how to would adapt to the meta.
even if they could try to prove it in ou and if it is extremely strong they ban it.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
is a Pre-Contributor
I’d also like to ask why Megas and Z-moves are present. This meta is just a really weird mishmash of mechanics. The simplest and most understandable way of handling this would be Gen 8 mechanics with the expanded roster. That’s it. Even more questionable is the inclusion of moves like Pursuit which no longer exist. The meta is called National Dex not Random Grab Bag of old Mechanics and Moves. It’s so far removed from OU mechanics at this point that it’s not simulating anything. This is a great opportunity to unwind the power creep in Nat Dex by removing these mechanics and following regular OU’s lead when Dynamax is inevitably banned.
Ever since Ruby and Sapphire in Generation 3, it has always been possible to acquire all previous Pokemon and items in future games. By extension, since transferring Pokemon was always available, any Pokemon that could learn a move in RSE could theoretically be transferred all the way up to USUM.

The goal of National Dex formats in general is to function as if such a mechanic existed in SS. This includes the transfer of all previous items (including Mega Stones and Z-Crystals).

If all Pokemon from previous generations could be transferred, then all old moves would exist in such a format. This is the way National Dex plans to handle that going forward. If all items were still obtainable, then Megas and Z-Crystals would still exist.

That is the theoretical justification for why National Dex formats exist and operate the way they do. On a more practical note, National Dex exists as a format for Pokemon players to use and enjoy the Pokemon from previous generations they are no longer able to use because of "the snap". This includes Megas because they are separately tiered Pokemon in their own right but also Z-Crystals because they are a popular mechanic from a previous generation.

The interaction between Mega/Z-Crystal and Dynamax is a more contentious issue; for the time being, National Dex plans to leave in all three. However, as Dynamax proves itself to be more and more broken every day, removing Dynamax from this format is definitely an option on the table that is being discussed. We would like to see how the sitewide/ OU discussion on Dynamax concludes before acting on it. This also leads to more consistency in mechanics.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One for All
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
if azumarill was not relevant in the format or if he wanted it would be ou, and maybe blaziken and gyarados have a similar speed but about 3 points in speed can make a difference and remember that to carry sword dance and thunder puch would mean no protection, so They can easily defeat in one turn and if you wear sword dance and protection this will be left with little coverage. Pkmn like hawlucha which also has sword dance and you can double the speed with a partner or using the dynanax is not banned, but blaziken if because they do not know how to play against it and how they do not dare to lower it from ubers they can not know how to would adapt to the meta.
even if they could try to prove it in ou and if it is extremely strong they ban it.
Blaziken doesn't mandate Protect in a set. I don't know why you are so set on that particular idea, when if Blaziken wants to wallbreak it actually needs Swords Dance. You are missing the point of what I am saying anyways, and you posts are near impossible to comprehend, so I'll end tjis here.
 
So I tested scarfed Cinderace a little bit and it is really nice. Even with adamant nature you are still faster then Jolly Darmanitan-Galar. I killed so many scarfed Darmanitan leads, I loled every time. It can also sweep with Max Flare sun into Pyro Ball or Max Knuckle atk boosts and is also a great uturner with Libero. Also scarfed Court Change is nice to have in the back.


Cinderace @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Court Change

Edit: However, adamant is slower than jolly scarfed Kartana. Jolly with 176 speed evs is enough to outspeed with Cinderace, which means some evs can be invested into hp as a trade for the lower dmg.
 
Last edited:
Blaziken doesn't mandate Protect in a set. I don't know why you are so set on that particular idea, when if Blaziken wants to wallbreak it actually needs Swords Dance. You are missing the point of what I am saying anyways, and you posts are near impossible to comprehend, so I'll end tjis here.
At least you know that pkmn usually have variants? because there are variants to play against certain pkmn, and if you did not know there is a variant of blaziken (which is quite common) that is used with protection so that pkmn as tapu koko does not exceed it in speed and can answer them well, and neither do I I will continue to argue with you because it seems that you do not know the basics, because if you only concentrate on one variant it means that you do not know much about the subject.
 
Not a good OU player per se, but I do love using regular Kyurem as a Dragon Dance user after the banishment of Kyurem Black.

:kyurem:
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Icicle Spear
- Stone Edge
- Substitute

While it lacks Teravolt to bypass ability and Fusion Bolt, Kyurem's amazing stats make it a fantastic Dragon Dance user. The basic premise of it is to find an opportunity to set up Substitute, use Dragon Dance, and proceed to sweep with Icicle Spear and hope it doesn't hit 2 times or set another Substitute up with its boosted speed. Stone Edge is your best bet of hitting Fire-type. Roost can replace Stone Edge for a reliable recovery at the cost of a coverage move, or Iron Head if you hate Fairy-types that much. If you have trouble with Toxapex, Zen Headbutt can surprise it, but it does come with underwhelming coverage. While not as mindblowing as Dragon Dance set, you could try a full special set now that Kyurem gets Freeze-dry to threaten Water-types.

EDIT: it sucks, don't
 
Last edited:
HI.. How crazy this metagame look!!

Two cuestion:
1) Indedee-M has the oportunity to outclase Tapu Lele. Same hability, same speed, Lele has more SpA and bulk when Indedee has Fire coverage to nuke steel types like Corviknight and company??
2) When Corviknight apears people say "he his a worse Skarm bc he doesnt have Spykes".. people realized Spdef BU is hard to stop.. what is the opinion now in relation to the other flying / steel mons??
 
Seriously, Melmetal is banned? Sorry for the short post but come the fuck ON. We have an active presence to remove Magearna-Original (purely cosmetic) and Melmetal (not OP at all and healthy component to the meta) but somehow Genesect and Pheromosa cant even be looked at?
 
More early thoughts on the metagame

:indeedee: vs :tapu-lele:
I knew these two were going to be compared at some point so I thought I would weigh in. Immediately what stands out to me is Indeedee’s access to Mystical Fire and Trick. This lets it cripple walls, particularly Ferro, Steela and Mega Scizor much easier than Lele. However, outside of Tricking a Choice item, it is unable to to touch Ttar, and can be Pursuit trapped by it. What I think we’re going to see is Lele is sticking to its classic sets. It’s higher power, Moonblast and Focus Blast lend themselves to Choice Specs and CM variants. However, Scarf variants will be overshadowed by Indeedee, particularly the female variant, who gets HWish. Also, it’s noteworthy that both Inde variants bypass Sub with Hyper Voice which could let them revenge kill things that something like Ditto can’t.

:greninja-ash:
I don’t know what to think of Ash-Greninja right now. One one hand, Dynamax makes it as proficient as ever at cleaning a game post-transforming. Max Darkness and Max Geyser also make it far easier to transform than in SM, too. However, many of the offensive Pokemon Greninja turned into offensive momentum can simply double their HP and be fine. Also, Dracovish has come to tear the metagame to shreds, and its presence is also a double-edged sword for our frog friend. Seismitoad and Gastrodon will rise to combat Fishious Rend spam, and then Greninja can’t spam Hydro Pump. However, these checks are still Spikes-prone, and Dracovish can potentially be paired with Greninja (think Fire Spam from last gen) for a deadly water assault. In short, Ash-Greninja could be the same menace it was last gen, but the meta could be less kind to it.

:toxtricity::Choice Specs:
Toxtricity is very cool actually. If you remember Nidoking from last gen, you’ll be reminded that it was one of, if not the, best switch-in to Toxapex bar Scald. It ate Toxic, absorbed TSpikes, Knock kinda bothered it but whatever. It was also noteworthy that Omari P used it it translated it’s defensive qualities into offensive pressure. Toxtricity is very similar in this regard. Like Nidoking, it’s a high risk, high reward mon. It comes in on on Toxapex all day thanks to Poison-typing and fires a free Specs-boosted attack. It also gets Volt Switch and, more importantly, threatens every Ground-type with Punk Rock Boomburst. Very neat mon if you manage to use it properly.

:seismitoad:
Toad is a giant-ass role compressor and I think it, if NatDex were the official format, it would still be OU. It’s a Water-immunity, Electric-immunity and Rocks setter, which is great for literally everything right now. If you need a Vish, AshGren, Koko, Tran, Toxtri, Heattom answer this is basically your mon. Refresh lets it beat back Heatran and sit on Toxapex (also wins Rotom 1v1 should it’s item have been removed). Great mon, please use more.
 
Last edited:
I have a suggestion.

Could we add Berserk Gene, NYPC moves, and all things that might have been removed in the past to National Dex tiers?

Lovely Kiss Snorlax/Nidoking, etc.

National Dex OU and AG already contain items and moves that aren't in Gen8, as well as mechanics that aren't in Gen8, such as Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves. So why not go all-out for the "ultimate" factor?

Here is a list of all NYPC moves: http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/4364/

I might have missed some other moves/items/whatever that may have been cut out in the past.
 
I have a suggestion.

Could we add Berserk Gene, NYPC moves, and all things that might have been removed in the past to National Dex tiers?

Lovely Kiss Snorlax/Nidoking, etc.

National Dex OU and AG already contain items and moves that aren't in Gen8, as well as mechanics that aren't in Gen8, such as Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves. So why not go all-out for the "ultimate" factor?

Here is a list of all NYPC moves: http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/4364/

I might have missed some other moves/items/whatever that may have been cut out in the past.
Imo no, because that's not the point of this format. It's just to ignore the intentional cuts by gamefreak in gen 8: 52% of the GEN 7 dex, 144 moves, megas, and z-crystals. This is an incredibly slippery slope, and you suggesting this is just reducing its legitimacy even more. After that, why not make Hyper Beam its gen1 mechanics and add Pokestar Spirit and Eternatus-Eternamax to NatDex?
I was surprised ngl it even got this far, and I wanna keep it here as a format rather than a pet mod.
 
Pretty sure that NYPC moves aren’t transferable to later gens. Actually, I’m fairly certain about that.
A lot of things in Gen7 aren't transferable to Gen8 either. That's the point of National Dex.

Imo no, because that's not the point of this format. It's just to ignore the intentional cuts by gamefreak in gen 8: 52% of the GEN 7 dex, 144 moves, megas, and z-crystals. This is an incredibly slippery slope, and you suggesting this is just reducing its legitimacy even more. After that, why not make Hyper Beam its gen1 mechanics and add Pokestar Spirit and Eternatus-Eternamax to NatDex?
I was surprised ngl it even got this far, and I wanna keep it here as a format rather than a pet mod.
Because National Dex OU and AG follow Gen8 mechanics. For example, in National Dex OU and AG, Multi-Attack has 120 base power, while Rapid Spin has 50 base power and raises the user's Speed. Also, National Dex tiers are ALREADY pet mods.

I think the spirit of National Dex tiers should be "it was always possible to transfer everything from one generation to the next," but we ultimately still use Gen8 mechanics. Nobody is telling you to turn this into a Hackmons tier.
 
Imo no, because that's not the point of this format. It's just to ignore the intentional cuts by gamefreak in gen 8: 52% of the GEN 7 dex, 144 moves, megas, and z-crystals. This is an incredibly slippery slope, and you suggesting this is just reducing its legitimacy even more.
I think the Yip person just wants to change "everything in USM can transfer to SwSh" to "everything in every core game can transfer to SwSh". How is this vague, open to interpretation, or slippery?
After that, why not make Hyper Beam its gen1 mechanics
It's the same reason a hyper beam user stops using RBY hyper beam mechanics when it gets transferred to GSC.
and add Pokestar Spirit and Eternatus-Eternamax to NatDex?
They were never obtainable and therefore can't be transferred. Every Pokemon in BW2 can transfer to ORAS, but Pokestar Spirit is still not allowed in ORAS. Same logic applies here.
 
I think the Yip person just wants to change "everything in USM can transfer to SwSh" to "everything in every core game can transfer to SwSh". How is this vague, open to interpretation, or slippery? It's the same reason a hyper beam user stops using RBY hyper beam mechanics when it gets transferred to GSC. They were never obtainable and therefore can't be transferred. Every Pokemon in BW2 can transfer to ORAS, but Pokestar Spirit is still not allowed in ORAS. Same logic applies here.
Fair enough. When you put it that way it makes a kind of sense. Still don't support it, but not going to say it's a terrible/dangerous idea anymore.
 
I have a suggestion.

Could we add Berserk Gene, NYPC moves, and all things that might have been removed in the past to National Dex tiers?

Lovely Kiss Snorlax/Nidoking, etc.

National Dex OU and AG already contain items and moves that aren't in Gen8, as well as mechanics that aren't in Gen8, such as Mega Evolutions and Z-Moves. So why not go all-out for the "ultimate" factor?

Here is a list of all NYPC moves: http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/4364/

I might have missed some other moves/items/whatever that may have been cut out in the past.
This would be so sick and I really hope this idea is seriously considered. Ultimately, since you can't transfer anything to gen 8, does it really matter whether the thing you can't transfer became untransferrable in gen 3 vs gen 7? I would argue that it's arbitrary either way.
I'd be surprised if Berserk Gene/90% of NYPC moves actually even see use but just having the opportunity to see them in a modern format is pretty exciting.
 
You mean it was changed into doing nothing? Old moves coming back is the biggest thing I dislike about this. Not only does it give a huge advantage to old mons that will forever (or as long as GF decides they will continue fown this path) retain imaginary moves, but it's goes completely againt the spirit of full dex, why don't we release floette-e then? How about Shadow Tag Chandelure and Levitate Gengar? Those were removed as well so we should be able to play with them.
 
You mean it was changed into doing nothing? Old moves coming back is the biggest thing I dislike about this. Not only does it give a huge advantage to old mons that will forever (or as long as GF decides they will continue fown this path) retain imaginary moves, but it's goes completely againt the spirit of full dex, why don't we release floette-e then? How about Shadow Tag Chandelure and Levitate Gengar? Those were removed as well so we should be able to play with them.
Are you really claiming that you can't tell the difference between a removed move and a changed move? Because that is what arbitrariness requires. As long as the changes are consistent, it isn't arbitrary.



Personally, I am fine with releasing floette-e, but not doing so isn't arbitrary as we never had it in the first place. Same with shadow tag chandelier (which would be banned anyway). Also, more importantly, those abilities were replaced. When you transfer a forbidden move, it does not auto-transform into another move. That difference is important.


How does it go against the spirit of the full dex? The point of the full dex is keeping what was left out of Galar. As for the advantage that old Mons have, new Mons have other advantages, like new moves and unintended interactions.
 
Also, more importantly, those abilities were replaced. When you transfer a forbidden move, it does not auto-transform into another move.
No, it literally prevents you from using the move. The full message you get is "This move can’t be used. It’s recommended that this move is forgotten. Once forgotten, this move can’t be remembered." It can't get more explicit than that. At least with Megas and co. you could still wait for then in the future, but this is a close a they are never coming back as you can get.

As for the advantage that old Mons have, new Mons have other advantages, like new moves and unintended interactions.
Lol, not only can old mons get the new moves (and often do as this gen made a bunch of signature moves into Tutors) but going forward new mons will never get the deleted moves, every new special and mixed attacker will be at a disadvantage because they don't have access to Hidden Power, new Dark types will never get Pursuit (which also makes all ghosts and psychics worst of overall than they should have been if Galar had all Pokémon), new normal types and any future physical -ate abusers are gonna have to be 20% stronger to be considered just on par with the old ones. This goes beyond full dex and I hate it because it adds stuff that was quite clearly and intentionally removed with no chance of it returning (unlike pokemon and megas whose item's info remains on cartridge).

Oh, and where are Baddy Bad and Zipppy Zap? Those moves were deleted as well so why can't I play with them?
 
No, it literally prevents you from using the move. The full message you get is "This move can’t be used. It’s recommended that this move is forgotten. Once forgotten, this move can’t be remembered." It can't get more explicit than that. At least with Megas and co. you could still wait for then in the future, but this is a close a they are never coming back as you can get.
So? I know that. It changes absolutely nothing I said. Again, the point is keeping things that were taken away. Which you are acknowledging the moves were.

Lol, not only can old mons get the new moves (and often do as this gen made a bunch of signature moves into Tutors) but going forward new mons will never get the deleted moves, every new special and mixed attacker will be at a disadvantage because they don't have access to Hidden Power, new Dark types will never get Pursuit (which also makes all ghosts and psychics worst of overall than they should have been if Galar had all Pokémon), new normal types and any future physical -ate abusers are gonna have to be 20% stronger to be considered just on par with the old ones. This goes beyond full dex and I hate it because it adds stuff that was quite clearly and intentionally removed with no chance of it returning (unlike pokemon and megas whose item's info remains on cartridge).
Firstly, they can't get new moves if they aren't in the dex. Secondly, this is a gen 8 game, so it is not our business to worry about gen 9 and beyond. Thirdly, the point of this game is to KEEP what was removed. That arguably makes keeping things that aren't coming back even MORE important.

Oh, and where are Baddy Bad and Zipppy Zap? Those moves were deleted as well so why can't I play with them?
Oh, I WANT those back (despite their stupid names). That said, Let's Go is officially not a core game.
 
Lol, not only can old mons get the new moves (and often do as this gen made a bunch of signature moves into Tutors) but going forward new mons will never get the deleted moves, every new special and mixed attacker will be at a disadvantage because they don't have access to Hidden Power, new Dark types will never get Pursuit (which also makes all ghosts and psychics worst of overall than they should have been if Galar had all Pokémon), new normal types and any future physical -ate abusers are gonna have to be 20% stronger to be considered just on par with the old ones. This goes beyond full dex and I hate it because it adds stuff that was quite clearly and intentionally removed with no chance of it returning (unlike pokemon and megas whose item's info remains on cartridge).
So this implies that playing Pokemon as the game designers intended would be more balanced? I honestly found this kind of funny. I personally think there might be other good reasons to ban all deleted moves, but this reason is not one of them.

Most of the deleted moves are useless, and decisions to allow or ban them will have no effect on the metagame. If one pursuit user becomes uncompetitive, then we ban that one. If multiple pursuit users become uncompetitive, then we ban pursuit. This is how Smogon has (almost) always fixed balance problems, and I don't see any good reason to do it differently here.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top