Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

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Is Zygarde-100% a bug? Cuz is THE bulkiest DMax abuser. This guy can survive a Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor if it's over 50% when it Dynamaxes. Not to mention that it's basically even worse than when Zyg was legal in USM.
Also:

+


This two cover eachother's weaknesses very well (Zyg covers Heatran and other Fire-types, while Megagross switches into Lele and other dangerous Fairies). Not to mention that Zyg has access to Glare, eliminating Megagross' only problem: it's only avobe-average speed.

File:861MS.png

This guy's access to Dual Screens in conjuction with Prankster and Thunder Wave makes it one of the best Screens setter in the game, as it offers Speed control for your "slower" wallbreakers and granting your setup sweepers an easier time setting up (especially stuff like SubCoil, Double Dance or SubDD Zygarde, Dynamax Sweepers like Gyarados or Magearna, or other stuff like Ditto as what it would copy is paralyzed), in addition to not risking itself against stuff like Rocks Lando. Spirit Break has some uses like weakening Heatran or Magearna, but nothing too spectacular, making Drain Punch usually the better choice. Taunt can be used instead of either TWave or Drain Punch/Spirit Break to prevent getting yourself defogged, but giving up speed control or your only way to getting past Dark types is far from ideal.
 
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Is Zygarde-100% a bug? Cuz is THE bulkiest DMax abuser. This guy can survive a Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor if it's over 50% when it Dynamaxes. Not to mention that it's basically even worse than when Zyg was legal in USM.
Also:

+


This two cover eachother's weaknesses very well (Zyg covers Heatran and other Fire-types, while Megagross switches into Lele and other dangerous Fairies). Not to mention that Zyg has access to Glare, eliminating Megagross' only problem: it's only avobe-average speed.

File:861MS.png

This guy's access to Dual Screens in conjuction with Prankster and Thunder Wave makes it one of the best Screens setter in the game, as it offers Speed control for your "slower" wallbreakers and granting your setup sweepers an easier time setting up (especially stuff like SubCoil, Double Dance or SubDD Zygarde, Dynamax Sweepers like Gyarados or Magearna, or other stuff like Ditto as what it would copy is paralyzed), in addition to not risking itself against stuff like Rocks Lando. Spirit Break has some uses like weakening Heatran or Magearna, but nothing too spectacular, making Drain Punch usually the better choice. Taunt can be used instead of either TWave or Drain Punch/Spirit Break to prevent getting yourself defogged, but giving up speed control or your only way to getting past Dark types is far from ideal.
I just remembered that in NatDex AG, you can actually Dynamax Zygarde-C. That's definitely up there with Clangorous Soul + Kommonium Z Kommo-o on my "this should not be a thing" list.

Oh yes, you can still use Clangorous Soul on the same set as Kommonium Z. So once you set up Clangorous Soul, you can immediately fire off a +1 Clangorous Soulblaze and boost your stats to even higher levels. Yeah it uses up 33% of your HP and your Z-move, but once you get set up... your opponent better have Haze or an Unaware user or something, because otherwise they're getting steamrolled. This is ridiculous.

Also, ban Kyu-B.
 
Hey,
here is a team I created to test how broken Aegislash and Metagross-Mega are. I would have included Zygard-Complete, but I did make good experiences with setup mons because Ditto while I tested DD Kyurem-B with Icicle Spear. However I guess you can use a defensive set on Zygard-Complete instead. Something of these probably: Sub / Protect / Dragon Tail / Thousand Arrows / Glare / Restalk

Here is the team
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- King's Shield

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Protect

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch

Tangrowth @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed

The result is a balanced team. However, I did not really find any new gen mons that fit into it. I feel like most of the new mons are more of the offensive nature. Suggestions of gen 8 mons would be appreciated. I added Rotom-W and Tangrowth as physical walls, because Dracowish in the rain is flat out broken. Rotom-W does also take physical fire moves that Aegislash cannot take while Tangrowth takes physical ground moves. Chansey gives a ghost immunity and takes all kinds of special moves that Aegislash cannot while Aegislash gives a fighting immunity for Chansey.
 
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not sure if its intended or a bug but power construct is currently usable (and disgustingly broken) on Zygarde
It's most certainly a bug. The OP clearly lists Power Construct under Banned Abilities.
Wow. Just wow. Okay, I already mentioned how broken Clangorus Soul + Kommonium Z was, but now you're telling me this thing can Dynamax on top of that!? This has to be a Showdown bug or something, because allowing a single Pokemon to use four different super moves is beyond broken.
 
How do people deal with 3 turn Dynamax/Gigantamax Pokemon when running a Mega or Z-Move? They are way too broken. Even with Super Effective hits, they don't die and manage to clean up half a team.
I didn't see Kyurem-Black being very useful in the format. Icicle Spear doesn't seem to get as much damage after +2 as I hoped. Maybe others feel differently or use it with Dynamax. What sets are people running on their Kyurem-Black?

Edit:
Nevermind. I thought if you have a Mega Pokemon/Z-Crystal, you can't dynamax at all with your team.
 
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How do people deal with 3 turn Dynamax/Gigantamax Pokemon when running a Mega or Z-Move? They are way too broken. Even with Super Effective hits, they don't die and manage to clean up half a team.
I didn't see Kyurem-Black being very useful in the format. Icicle Spear doesn't seem to get as much damage after +2 as I hoped. Maybe others feel differently or use it with Dynamax. What sets are people running on their Kyurem-Black?
Mon who are holding a mega-stone or z-crystal can't dynamax. This may make dynamaxing more balanced in this format than standard, as non-dynamax Mon have other ways to compete.
 
Just my thoughts

I think there are no grounds for Genesect to still be banned when half the meta is better than it. He was banned because he had no switch-ins? Well like every current breaker in NDOU (Kyub, darm, draco) has no switch-ins. I legitamitely think Genesect could be healthy for the meta because hes a scarfer that outspeeds and forces out darm and +1 kyub both of which are oppressive as hell. Also, I assume a +1 Ice Beam can ohko zygarde, who is also oppressive. Genesect himself is far from unbeatable. He can't switch into jack anymore and has to be factored into a VT core now. He can be checked by bulkier Mag variants and MMetal.

Landorus-L, too, because of the resurgence of ice types. Like, since every single game has either darm or Kyub i think landorus will be hard pressed to not be forced out. Dynamaxing doesnt help him as much as many other mons because to my knowledge it doesn't synergize with Sheer Force (could be wrong). Hes so squishy and dynamax is a massive nerf to him.

Finally, I think that you guys are seriously sleeping on Assault Vest Melmetal. Hes a great check to Kyub, Darm, and gyara due to his absolutely ridiculous bulk. The evs you want to use are 60 HP, 252 Attack, 180 SpDef, 16 Speed (to outspeed pex). He's much bulkier than people realize. I csnt stress that enough. Like fucking seriously.
 
Just my thoughts

I think there are no grounds for Genesect to still be banned when half the meta is better than it. He was banned because he had no switch-ins? Well like every current breaker in NDOU (Kyub, darm, draco) has no switch-ins. I legitamitely think Genesect could be healthy for the meta because hes a scarfer that outspeeds and forces out darm and +1 kyub both of which are oppressive as hell. Also, I assume a +1 Ice Beam can ohko zygarde, who is also oppressive. Genesect himself is far from unbeatable. He can't switch into jack anymore and has to be factored into a VT core now. He can be checked by bulkier Mag variants and MMetal.

Landorus-L, too, because of the resurgence of ice types. Like, since every single game has either darm or Kyub i think landorus will be hard pressed to not be forced out. Dynamaxing doesnt help him as much as many other mons because to my knowledge it doesn't synergize with Sheer Force (could be wrong). Hes so squishy and dynamax is a massive nerf to him.

Finally, I think that you guys are seriously sleeping on Assault Vest Melmetal. Hes a great check to Kyub, Darm, and gyara due to his absolutely ridiculous bulk. The evs you want to use are 60 HP, 252 Attack, 180 SpDef, 16 Speed (to outspeed pex). He's much bulkier than people realize. I csnt stress that enough. Like fucking seriously.
This entire post seems to be of the dreaded "broken checks broken" mindset, which is not a philosphy we embrace on Smogon. Saying that Genesect and Lando-T are healthy for the meta because of Kyu-B, Darm, Dracovish and Zygarde is more of a testament to how broken the latter mons are than anything else. Dropping broken shit to check more broken shit does not make that shit any less broken; it only centralizes the meta around said broken shit.

You also completely failed to mention a major reason for Genesect's ban: U-turn. While the other mons you mentioned are forced to hard switch out of their counters, giving their opponent a free turn, Genesect can wear them down with a boosted STAB U-turn while also bringing in a check.
 
Metagame looks cool at the moment. Although there are still stinkers like Dynamaxing, Dugtrio, Kyurem-B. Kommo-o is also crazy with having both its new move and its old Z moves together to make one broken ass set up monster. Other mons like Zygarde and M-Metagross have both proven to be very power wallbreakers right now. I've been using Tangrowth a lot recently because of how well it checks both of them. I still think M-Metagross is potential issue in the future because of how fast and bulky it is but only time will tell.

Also I feel like some Ubers should drop because they both have issues in the current metagame that make them easy to pressure.

:genesect:

People have already talked about this so I won't say much more. I don't give a shit that it can just U-Turn on everything because literally any other Voltturn user can do that already. Download is nice and all but some smart builders will just EV themselfs to prevent it hitting you with the boost. Its typing is nice but low defenses means it can only switch in like twice on strong attacks it resists.

:deoxys-defense:

Ever since defog got a wider distribution I've always wanted to see how this thing would fair in OU. Its excellent at laying down hazards but with Defog being everywhere nowadays I think it would be much more manageable to face.
 

G-Luke

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Or simply make clangorous soul and kommomium z incompatible


And I have a question, when standard OU will ban dynamax, does the ban will also be enforced in this meta ? I really hope so
Just Ban Kommo-O. If the mon is broken ban it. If you are REALLY itching to keep it ban Kommomium-Z. Clangorous Soul isn't broken at all, as clearly shown in OU, which has much less threats than Nat Dex
 
NatDex OU is still in beta
Just Ban Kommo-O. If the mon is broken ban it. If you are REALLY itching to keep it ban Kommomium-Z. Clangorous Soul isn't broken at all, as clearly shown in OU, which has much less threats than Nat Dex
I don’t think we should even consider to ban Kommo-o, especially since stuff like Power Construct and Mega-Metagross are still in. Instead, either ban dynamaxing since its broken either way (nothing else to say about dynamaxing that hasn’t been said before) or remove the ability to use z-moves and dynamax for a single Pokemon.

With that being said, I wanna touch upon Corviknight.

This mon is probably even better rn having more victims to setup BU on like Kartana, Tang, Lando, Lele, Chomp, Non TPunch MegaGross, Protean Gren, and Non-Taunt Torn and Gliscor. Sub BU Corviknight is also really good vs stall thanks to pressure burning up Wish from Clefable which can barely hurt it with the only worry being Toxapex. Defog Corviknight beats out alot of common rockers and is a better answer to Lele and Zam than Steela cause of Pressure and Roost. It also has U-Turn to escape Magnezone if predicted. Corviknight has more SpD than Skarm while being close to its physical def. A menace in Gen 8 OU and a sleeper in NatDex
 
NatDex OU is still in beta


I don’t think we should even consider to ban Kommo-o, especially since stuff like Power Construct and Mega-Metagross are still in. Instead, either ban dynamaxing since its broken either way (nothing else to say about dynamaxing that hasn’t been said before) or remove the ability to use z-moves and dynamax for a single Pokemon.

With that being said, I wanna touch upon Corviknight.

This mon is probably even better rn having more victims to setup BU on like Kartana, Tang, Lando, Lele, Chomp, Non TPunch MegaGross, Protean Gren, and Non-Taunt Torn and Gliscor. Sub BU Corviknight is also really good vs stall thanks to pressure burning up Wish from Clefable which can barely hurt it with the only worry being Toxapex. Defog Corviknight beats out alot of common rockers and is a better answer to Lele and Zam than Steela cause of Pressure and Roost. It also has U-Turn to escape Magnezone if predicted. Corviknight has more SpD than Skarm while being close to its physical def. A menace in Gen 8 OU and a sleeper in NatDex
Small nitpick: Power Construct is not supposed to be legal, it's even listed as banned in the OP. I don't know why it's legal on Showdown atm, but that is almost certainly a bug and needs to be fixed.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One for All
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
NatDex OU is still in beta


I don’t think we should even consider to ban Kommo-o, especially since stuff like Power Construct and Mega-Metagross are still in. Instead, either ban dynamaxing since its broken either way (nothing else to say about dynamaxing that hasn’t been said before) or remove the ability to use z-moves and dynamax for a single Pokemon.
I wasn't talking about Kommo-O dynamaxing anyways. I was specifically talking about its nasty ability to get to +2 in all stats
 
While we're on the discussion of unbanning mons lets discuss Pheramosa. Her bulk is simply unacceptable in this metagame and she has gotten completely shafted by dynamax. She doesnt benefit from it because she will still be threatened to be one shot since her bulk is so atrocious. Also, the presence of corsola and Aegislash make it harder for her to spam high jump kicks, and dynamax makes it harder for her to take out what used to be her prey. She is a very feast or famine mon. If she doesnt kill her targets, she will likely die. Now, anyone can dynamax to survive her attack and OHKO.

I dont think she can run stealth rock sets well anymore since she is completely destroyed by corsola. She cannot switch into anything and has to be pivoted so she prevents a massive momentum drain. Her base speed seems too high to effectively run a scarf set. I guess band could be powerful but like i said before she has several checks that can force her out.

Purely speculatory.
 
Does Phero even learn Stealth Rock? I know for a fact she does get Rapid Spin, and with it being buffed, she could run it to pick off something and get +2 speed or +1 Special attack and +1 speed depending on how the EVs are distributed, which has the potential to be a major issue.
 
While we're on the discussion of unbanning mons lets discuss Pheramosa. Her bulk is simply unacceptable in this metagame and she has gotten completely shafted by dynamax. She doesnt benefit from it because she will still be threatened to be one shot since her bulk is so atrocious. Also, the presence of corsola and Aegislash make it harder for her to spam high jump kicks, and dynamax makes it harder for her to take out what used to be her prey. She is a very feast or famine mon. If she doesnt kill her targets, she will likely die. Now, anyone can dynamax to survive her attack and OHKO.

I dont think she can run stealth rock sets well anymore since she is completely destroyed by corsola. She cannot switch into anything and has to be pivoted so she prevents a massive momentum drain. Her base speed seems too high to effectively run a scarf set. I guess band could be powerful but like i said before she has several checks that can force her out.

Purely speculatory.
Unbanning Pheromosa would be a terrible idea imo. It has Knock Off and Drill Run from USUM so rip Pex and Corsola, and dynamaxing makes Pheromosa even harder to revenge kill while it gets +1 Atk from Max Knuckle.
 
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