Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

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Unbanning Pheromosa would be a terrible idea imo. It has Knock Off and Drill Run from USUM so rip Pex and Corsola, and dynamaxing makes Pheromosa even harder to revenge kill while it gets +1 Atk from Max Knuckle.
Using Pheromosa's Uber Offensive Pivot Set,

252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 122-146 (37.6 - 45%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash: 88-105 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

While I think that Pheromosa can do some serious damage to them both aformentioned checks are capable of avoiding a 2hko and shutting it down. Dynamax is pretty much about to be banned so personally i dont think max knuckle will be a problem for much longer but I do think there is potential for discussion for pheromosa once dyna is gone.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so it has been a couple of days and I think anyone who has played this metagame can reach the same consensus as I have. Before I make any ban announcement however, welcome a new member to the NatDex OU council power. We are still actively looking for members but for the meantime, power and I will be handling tiering decisions.


Anyways with that out of the way, Kyurem-B is now banned from National Dex OU!

Gaining access to both Icicle Spear and Dragon Dance have basically patched most of Kyurem-B's weaknesses in terms of having a way to boost it's Attack coupled with "reliable" Physical Ice-type STAB. Kyurem-B can abuse both Z-Moves and Dynamax mechanics to further enhance it's offensive capabilities and can really make it becoming quite unmanageable, forcing players to rely on anti-sweep methods such as Scarf Ditto to combat a boosted Kyu-B due to Teravolt nullifying Unaware walls. With all this mind, Kyurem-B is too much of a nuisance in the current meta and is best left banned.

We are still discussing further suspects / re-suspects in the mean time (the main ones being Landorus, Genesect, and Pheromosa), however still feel free to voice your opinions on other potential suspects in the meantime. Also, please avoid useless one-liners as the thread can often get derailed and just causes confusion. Feel free to direct any mechanic related questions to the Simple Questions thread and dont post them here please.

Tagging The Immortal
 

Anyways with that out of the way, Kyurem-B is now banned from National Dex OU!

Gaining access to both Icicle Spear and Dragon Dance have basically patched most of Kyurem-B's weaknesses in terms of having a way to boost it's Attack coupled with "reliable" Physical Ice-type STAB. Kyurem-B can abuse both Z-Moves and Dynamax mechanics to further enhance it's offensive capabilities and can really make it becoming quite unmanageable, forcing players to rely on anti-sweep methods such as Scarf Ditto to combat a boosted Kyu-B due to Teravolt nullifying Unaware walls. With all this mind, Kyurem-B is too much of a nuisance in the current meta and is best left banned.
Hi

I registered to voice opposition to this ban.
I am not opposed to a KB ban, but I dislike all of your reasons for banning it.

Let's break it down.

Dragon Dance...having a way to boost it's Attack

What is threatening with Dragon Dance is not the Attack boost so much as the Speed boost. At +1, KB is very difficult to outspeed without a faster scarfer, but such an offensive check isn't unusual when Dynamax is in the game. There is little downside to having a fast revenge killer - like a scarf Dragapult - when Dynamax allows Pokemon to break out of their choice lock whenever opportune. And with the prevalence of Darmanitan-G in the Gen VIII OU, you could say that for a successful team needs to prepare for an answer to 476 Speed, either in the form of a fast revenge killer or a Pokemon with access to strong priority.

KB has never had trouble dealing damage - he has always had access to Outrage, and a Choice Scarf set was viable before the introduction of Fairy-types. His main flaws have always been a horrid defensive typing, vulnerability to hazards and priority, and mediocre speed tier.

with "reliable" Physical Ice-type STAB.

Icicle Spear doesn't help KB break past Steel-types, his nemeses. Even at +1 Attack, KB isn't guaranteed to 2HKO specially defensive Ferrothorn, while he is OHKO'd by Gyro Ball after Stealth Rock:

+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 174-210 (49.4 - 59.6%) -- approx. 86.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 306-362 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

What Icicle Spear gives KB that he didn't have before is a way to hit Grass, Ground Pokemon for super-effective damage, but this is a niche he already had. Icium Z already gave him the power to muscle through, Mega Venusaur and Celesteela, and Subzero Slammer does not break Celesteela with Icicle Spear as the base.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 265-313 (66.7 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyurem-B can abuse...Dynamax mechanics...
This is the real source of the problem. KB is one of the worst Dynamax abusers because his high natural bulk, even though Max Hailstorm and Max Wyrmwind do not advance a sweep in the same way the terrain, weather-setting, or stat boosting Max Moves do. What Dynamaxing does it make KB even harder to revenge kill, which is aggravated by his enhanced speed tier. Worse, scarf Pokemon lose their speed bonus if they Dynamax to get enough power to revenge kill, potentially allowing KB to cheese them.

In conclusion, I don't think that Icicle Spear or boosted Attack from Dragon Dance are what break KB. Neither tool is as good as getting Earthquake for coverage to hit Steel-types. Smogon has been able to handle a hard-hitting KB in the past.

What I see as the potential banworthy issue is the 476 Speed at +1 from Dragon Dance, but I can't confidently say it's broken right now when Dynamax makes that 476 Speed much harder to check. As was the case with Power Construct Zygarde, a fast, fat Pokemon is a threat even without a base 170 Attack stat. But KB isn't quite as fat, and has far more exploitable weaknesses than Zygarde-C did.

The niche as a fat Dynamax abuser will be filled by other Pokemon, such as vanilla Zygarde and Kyurem - Pokemon that might not hit as hard, but will still be maddeningly difficult to revenge kill due to their boosted speed and high bulk. And because of this, I don't see KB as being distinct from these other threats to warrant a ban before Dynamax.

Certainly, he may be the most popular Dynamax abuser, but less for competitive and more for narrative reasons - many players sympathize with powerful Pokemon held back by crippling flaws, such as Regigigas, Slaking, Archeops and KB. Players want these Pokemon to be broken and feared and their objectivity may be tainted by this desire whenever one of these Pokemons gets a perceived "boost". Such was the case when Weezing-G was announced with Neutralizing Gas as a way of making Archeops "viable" in doubles. It's a very real emotion and it's one that needs to be accounted for when making tiering decisions.

I've said what I came to say. Peace out.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One for All
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
Hi

I registered to voice opposition to this ban.
I am not opposed to a KB ban, but I dislike all of your reasons for banning it.

Let's break it down.




What is threatening with Dragon Dance is not the Attack boost so much as the Speed boost. At +1, KB is very difficult to outspeed without a faster scarfer, but such an offensive check isn't unusual when Dynamax is in the game. There is little downside to having a fast revenge killer - like a scarf Dragapult - when Dynamax allows Pokemon to break out of their choice lock whenever opportune. And with the prevalence of Darmanitan-G in the Gen VIII OU, you could say that for a successful team needs to prepare for an answer to 476 Speed, either in the form of a fast revenge killer or a Pokemon with access to strong priority.

KB has never had trouble dealing damage - he has always had access to Outrage, and a Choice Scarf set was viable before the introduction of Fairy-types. His main flaws have always been a horrid defensive typing, vulnerability to hazards and priority, and mediocre speed tier.




Icicle Spear doesn't help KB break past Steel-types, his nemeses. Even at +1 Attack, KB isn't guaranteed to 2HKO specially defensive Ferrothorn, while he is OHKO'd by Gyro Ball after Stealth Rock:

+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 24 Def Ferrothorn: 174-210 (49.4 - 59.6%) -- approx. 86.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 306-362 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

What Icicle Spear gives KB that he didn't have before is a way to hit Grass, Ground Pokemon for super-effective damage, but this is a niche he already had. Icium Z already gave him the power to muscle through, Mega Venusaur and Celesteela, and Subzero Slammer does not break Celesteela with Icicle Spear as the base.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Celesteela: 265-313 (66.7 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



This is the real source of the problem. KB is one of the worst Dynamax abusers because his high natural bulk, even though Max Hailstorm and Max Wyrmwind do not advance a sweep in the same way the terrain, weather-setting, or stat boosting Max Moves do. What Dynamaxing does it make KB even harder to revenge kill, which is aggravated by his enhanced speed tier. Worse, scarf Pokemon lose their speed bonus if they Dynamax to get enough power to revenge kill, potentially allowing KB to cheese them.

In conclusion, I don't think that Icicle Spear or boosted Attack from Dragon Dance are what break KB. Neither tool is as good as getting Earthquake for coverage to hit Steel-types. Smogon has been able to handle a hard-hitting KB in the past.

What I see as the potential banworthy issue is the 476 Speed at +1 from Dragon Dance, but I can't confidently say it's broken right now when Dynamax makes that 476 Speed much harder to check. As was the case with Power Construct Zygarde, a fast, fat Pokemon is a threat even without a base 170 Attack stat. But KB isn't quite as fat, and has far more exploitable weaknesses than Zygarde-C did.

The niche as a fat Dynamax abuser will be filled by other Pokemon, such as vanilla Zygarde and Kyurem - Pokemon that might not hit as hard, but will still be maddeningly difficult to revenge kill due to their boosted speed and high bulk. And because of this, I don't see KB as being distinct from these other threats to warrant a ban before Dynamax.

Certainly, he may be the most popular Dynamax abuser, but less for competitive and more for narrative reasons - many players sympathize with powerful Pokemon held back by crippling flaws, such as Regigigas, Slaking, Archeops and KB. Players want these Pokemon to be broken and feared and their objectivity may be tainted by this desire whenever one of these Pokemons gets a perceived "boost". Such was the case when Weezing-G was announced with Neutralizing Gas as a way of making Archeops "viable" in doubles. It's a very real emotion and it's one that needs to be accounted for when making tiering decisions.

I've said what I came to say. Peace out.
The speed while big, just isnt the most threatening aspect of Kyurem when all of the viable Scarfers sans Landorus-T can revenge kill it. Kyurem has not added a new speed dynamic into the metagame. The reason its banworthy comes squarely down to its damage output and raw bulk with dynamax in play. With +1 Attack offensive teams have no switch ins into Kyurem-Black. None. And now with a physical STAB option, while not excellent, gives it the means to fully exploit its gargantuan 170 base attack and perfect Bolt Beam coverage. You mention how Icicle Spear is just useful to snipe Grasses, but like, NO. Icicle Spear is good purely because of it being STAB off of one of the best offensive typings in the game. Your nit gonna wait until a Grass or Flying type is in front if you before using Icicle Spear. You use Icicle Spear until a resist pops up. Giving it the speed to sweep offensive teams is great and a powerful tool, but I do not think that is the main banning factor, since we have faster pokemon that can boost their speed. I honestly think if Kyurem-B had Swords Dance instead of DDance it still would be banworthy. So I think the leaders made a great call.
 
Watching pokeaimMD fight last night, I think that another good core that shines in this meta is PexTine

In a meta where toxic is not as common Mantine can wall threats easier. Water Absorb is absolutely crucial in pivoting into Rend , and a more physically biased spread for Pex with Bunker (perhaps with even a shuca berry) is good to check Darm and Draco. A huge threat, Kyub, is gone, and we just learned on r/stunfisk that defog clears terrain so i expect koko's to be decreasing in usage as hawlucha is also indirectly nerfed.


I also think Mega Alt can find a big niche in checking Draco with Physically defensive cotton guard. She also counters koko, checks ttar, and lando, and brings an insane amount of utility with heal bell, defog (which is more powerful than ever), Refresh, Roost, haze, body slam (para is valuable in a hyper offensive meta like this) and as mentioned before resisting both of Draco's stabs as well as good recovery is nice. Even prior to mega evolving she gets NC and soft checks Exca. As sand becomes more and more meta defining I expect alt to find a niche as 'cloud mega venu'
 
Is Blaziken still too broken for nat OU?
I already know that Blaziken was banned for having sword dance and speed boost, which could sweep the enemy team but at this point I don't think it's too strong.
also that it is quite difficult for a blaziken to manage to throw a sword dance as if nothing has only a few defenses of 70 and as in the goal there are so many movements with priority it would not be so difficult to defeat him.
Also, there are quite a few pokemon that can defeat him quite easily, as is the example of salamance, gyarados, azumarill, etc.
 
Is Blaziken still too broken for nat OU?
I already know that Blaziken was banned for having sword dance and speed boost, which could sweep the enemy team but at this point I don't think it's too strong.
also that it is quite difficult for a blaziken to manage to throw a sword dance as if nothing has only a few defenses of 70 and as in the goal there are so many movements with priority it would not be so difficult to defeat him.
Also, there are quite a few pokemon that can defeat him quite easily, as is the example of salamance, gyarados, azumarill, etc.
I think the problem with Blaziken is his coverage and ability to make said coverage deal nutty damage. Unlike Genesect who is usually choice locked, if Blaziken gets one Swords Dance in, he basically gets the same treatment as Scarf Darm in that he gets boosted in both atk and ape. Also the mega evolution speed changes can make him straight up forgo protect for another move. After one swords dance he just has too much damage.

And dynamax is on its way out so its not like you can dyna to tank a +2 flare blitz in the near future. And if you dont use mega blaziken but regular blaziken, you can use a choice item to augment either his speed or his power. Basically, he becomes a worse darm due to his potential to end the game with one swords dance.

Edit: Gyarados and Azu are nicked by Thunder Punch and no one uses Salamence
 
Also of note, the bug which allowed Power Construct on the ladder has been fixed. THANK GOD. We still have some major threats and quirky mechanics to deal with (Kommo-o), but otherwise the meta should be a bit more balanced now.

Actually, on that note, has anyone checked to see if the bug that let you Dynamax while holding a Z-Crystal has been fixed?
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One for All
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
Is Blaziken still too broken for nat OU?
I already know that Blaziken was banned for having sword dance and speed boost, which could sweep the enemy team but at this point I don't think it's too strong.
also that it is quite difficult for a blaziken to manage to throw a sword dance as if nothing has only a few defenses of 70 and as in the goal there are so many movements with priority it would not be so difficult to defeat him.
Also, there are quite a few pokemon that can defeat him quite easily, as is the example of salamance, gyarados, azumarill, etc.
Even without its Mega, Dynamax Blaziken would quickly become the star of the Metagame, having its Max Flare give its subsequent Fire attacks a big buff in power, Max Knuckle boosting its Attack stat, all while getting a consistent speed increase every turn. It can use Nax Quake to eliminate Toxapex and simultaneously boost its SpD, while Max Airstream can hit mons like Mantine while boosting it's speed even further. Blaziken is literally at its most broken it has ever been. No thanks.
 
Hey,
here is a team I created to test how broken Aegislash and Metagross-Mega are. I would have included Zygard-Complete, but I did make good experiences with setup mons because Ditto while I tested DD Kyurem-B with Icicle Spear. However I guess you can use a defensive set on Zygard-Complete instead. Something of these probably: Sub / Protect / Dragon Tail / Thousand Arrows / Glare / Restalk

Here is the team
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- King's Shield

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Protect

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch

Tangrowth @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed

The result is a balanced team. However, I did not really find any new gen mons that fit into it. I feel like most of the new mons are more of the offensive nature. Suggestions of gen 8 mons would be appreciated. I added Rotom-W and Tangrowth as physical walls, because Dracowish in the rain is flat out broken. Rotom-W does also take physical fire moves that Aegislash cannot take while Tangrowth takes physical ground moves. Chansey gives a ghost immunity and takes all kinds of special moves that Aegislash cannot while Aegislash gives a fighting immunity for Chansey.
cool team, just went 40-0 :)
1575235984667.png


Aegislash is broken (SubTox at least, beats every check)
Kyurem-B is still on the ladder :(
Dynamax is stupid but fun af idk should probs be banned tho, ditto can pull some stupid shit
WashTom is rlly good in this meta, lots of free willos + good pivot
Stall is eh because ditto is everywhere, which gives u infinite PP (at the same time, ditto stall exists)
dracovish is eh because tangrowth is here and walls it, can still be scary on rain teams tho

fun meta overall, would like some more unbans. rlly wanna invest in this :)
 
Not a highly substantive post incoming but I wanted to echo a few thoughts from earlier in the thread.

Overall I think the tier is enjoyable and one that I can see myself investing genuine time and effort into. On one hand I can appreciate the value Dexit had on Gen 8 OU, forcing stale mons out of the spotlight and allowing the new ones to shine in the most-played tier. However, unlike in past gens I think the new gen 8 mons are good enough to see usage on their own merit (see: Darmanitan-Galar, Corviknight, Dragapult at #1 usage in OU!) so weaving them into this tier is refreshing to see. The beginning of any new generation is always chaotic, so I think once we have the right mechanics solidified on ladder and Dynamax gets resolved one way or another we'll see the tier develop with greater consistency.

Some brief thoughts on bans, unbans & potential retests:
1575249178954.png : No question the TLs did the right thing here, not much more to say. I don't think Icicle Spear is that great of a move to push it over the edge, but when paired with Dynamax + DD + full offensive EV spreads + the overall context of the meta it's not worth keeping right now.
1575250119880.png
: I don't think we need to reach the question of whether Clangorous Soul + Clangorous Soulblaze is broken since I am fairly sure they were never meant to exist in the same competitive format together to begin with. I think some type of limiting clause is absolutely necessary here. +2 in all stats with a STAB nuke for the cost of 33% HP is goofy.
1575250786558.png
: I am very interested to see what happens with this mon months from now when the tier settles. Right now the meta is less kind to Meta than in the past - it has to deal with Aegislash, Dugtrio, fast offensive checks like Dragapult and Cinderace, a high usage of Mega Scizor and Cursola on stall and its usual checks in Ferro/Skarm/Tang/Rotom-W on every squad, etc. I think it has far less freedom to switch up coverage than ever before and that you deviate from Mash + EQ + Tpunch at your own peril, but I guess time will tell. Having to run EQ also makes it more susceptible to being RKed by Ditto which is omnipresent. Perhaps other meta trends / bans will open up more doors for this down the road.
1575251896690.png
: In my heart I would like to see this mon return, because I thought it was fine for the early part of SM OU, but I have doubts about whether its Z-move sets + newly acquired coverage would still be too overwhelming. I think Aegislash is a healthy presence for the tier right now and I do not want to see it forced onto more teams than it ought to be just for the sake of blanket checking this thing. If it is to be retested, I would advocate doing so in the future when common defensive cores + counterplay are less speculative.
1575249112820.png
: I was disappointed to see this on the initial banlist. I'll reserve my commentary on it for a later time if it is retested but at this time I'll strongly advocate for that course of action and leave it at that.

As for the new mons, Darmanitan-G is nuts on any well-built team and, of the many threats to stall and fatter teams, it is easily top 3. Stall has access to all the old goons and some new ones in this format which in all fairness is probably a good thing, since there's no shortage of options for breaking it atm. SpDef Corviknight is worth trying on balance/fatter builds if you haven't yet, and once new-toy syndrome wears off I think it'll become clear how good this thing is (among all its other sets).
 
I'm glad Zygarde is back because I can use and showcase one of my favorite sets again.

:sm/Zygarde:
SubToxic DD
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Dance
- Toxic
- Substitute

This set preys on teams that relie on counters like Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu to deal with Zygarde. The combination of Toxic and Substitute lets it pressure its checks while also being able to sweeps with Dragon Dance late game. Thousand Arrows it literally all it needs to threaten teams so coverage is unnecessary.

The EVs are to maximize damage output, make 101 HP Subs and survive 2 Jolly Landorus-T's HP Ice (Some people perfer having negative SpA natures so Landorus-T can switch in more), and outspeed Scarf Magnezone, Mega Latios and Mega Metagross at +1. Leftovers are the go to item of choice to improve your longevity.

I have team with this beast if anyone is curious.

:metagross-mega: :zygarde: :hydreigon: :tangrowth: :toxapex: :kartana:
 
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cool team, just went 40-0 :)
View attachment 209373

Aegislash is broken (SubTox at least, beats every check)
Kyurem-B is still on the ladder :(
Dynamax is stupid but fun af idk should probs be banned tho, ditto can pull some stupid shit
WashTom is rlly good in this meta, lots of free willos + good pivot
Stall is eh because ditto is everywhere, which gives u infinite PP (at the same time, ditto stall exists)
dracovish is eh because tangrowth is here and walls it, can still be scary on rain teams tho

fun meta overall, would like some more unbans. rlly wanna invest in this :)
I changed Rotom-W and Tangrowth into bold Mantine with Water Absorb to deal with dracowish, sothat I can add another offensive mon and changed Aegislash to phys def because of that.
I decided to test Libero Cinderace. As I said i made bad experiences with setup mons because scarfed dittos, however, scarfed Cinderace can setup with Max Knuckle and then sweep with its own scarf. Ditto can at best win a speed tie. Also You dont necessarily need max Knuckle, because Max Flare summoning the sun can make you sweep with your scarfed Pyro Ball aswell.
Alternatively I can recommend a ground type / any electro immunity of your choice, especially with Tangrowth gone and Mantine added. That electro dragon with hustle seems to be quite strong aswell, so its def not a bad choice to go for something like that. Ironically Tangrowth does the job again, but an actual immunity could give room for a more offensive option.

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- King's Shield
- Toxic

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Transform

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Protect

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Ice Punch

Cinderace @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
 
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Screens is absolutely crazy this gen. Corviknight and Grimmsnarl are two fantastic additions to this playstyle. Corviknight can setup BU against a large majority of the OU tier such as Lando, Chomp, Gliscor, Torn, Ferro, Corsola, and Lele. Grimmsnarl has passable bulk with Prankster screens and Taunt + TWave to cripple sweepers and annoy walls. I have made a team with these two and Zygarde if you’d like to try it out.

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 136 SpD / 88 Spe
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Roost

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense/Focus Blast
- Recover
- Stored Power

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave/Spirit Break

Zygarde @ Leftovers/Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 148 SpD / 104 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Extreme Speed/Outrage

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Flamethrower
- Psychic/Roost
 
Screens is absolutely crazy this gen. Corviknight and Grimmsnarl are two fantastic additions to this playstyle. Corviknight can setup BU against a large majority of the OU tier such as Lando, Chomp, Gliscor, Torn, Ferro, Corsola, and Lele. Grimmsnarl has passable bulk with Prankster screens and Taunt + TWave to cripple sweepers and annoy walls. I have made a team with these two and Zygarde if you’d like to try it out.

Corviknight @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 136 SpD / 88 Spe
Careful Nature
- Brave Bird
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Roost

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Explosion

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense/Focus Blast
- Recover
- Stored Power

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave/Spirit Break

Zygarde @ Leftovers/Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 148 SpD / 104 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Substitute
- Extreme Speed/Outrage

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Flamethrower
- Psychic/Roost
Small nitpick, but always use Acid Armor in Double Dance for Reuniclus, due to it having more PP. It may seem small at face value but it will be crucial in outstalling dark types.
 
The issue with Shaymin-Sky is its combination of traits. Its speed and SpA coupled with its movepool and broken ability for a mon like this that make it broken. The aforementioned Celesteela and Corviknight lose to the Sub Seed set and further Air Slash flinch hax. Koko hates taking a Seed Flare and even an Air Slash. Dragapult has the added bonus of being able to outspeed it and break through sub but it has no reliable recovery and will not enjoy talking Air Slashes. As for stuff like Kyurem-B, I think more time is needed before we can determine it broken or not. Dynamaxing makes this thing a god but before Kyurem-B is suspected upon, dynamaxing needs a suspect test. KyuB is weak to rocks and its typing gives it less opportunities to sweep than people think and it has to speed tie with Scarf Lele and is Rkilled by the likes of Scarf Kartana and maybe M-Gross.

This might be an unpopular opinion but I believe Dawn Wings deserves an unban. The meta is no stranger to slow, powerful wallbreakers and Dawn Wings is no exception. Its very Pursuit weak meaning trappers like Ttar will make Dawn Wings more manageable for fatter teams.
Kyu-B was fairly good the last generation with giga-nuke Icium-Z set, and now with 2 new tools (Dragon Dance and a physical Ice move) it will likely be too strong.

I had not considered the sub-seed set for Shaymin-Sky, but Tapu Koko does outspeed Shaymin-Sky. LO and Specs T-bolt has a low chance to OHKO, and HP-Ice will always OHKO on those sets vs Special Attacker Shaymin-Sky.

DW-Necrozma seems interesting, but its stats are a bit high and it has a good ability. There would need to be a world where it loses one of those to be allowed in OU. I think the same about normal Zamazenta who has bad typing, and if it lost its ability, it would likely be fine in OU.

Another thing, now that Normal OU is suspecting Dynamax, how will NatDex OU react?
 
I’d also like to ask why Megas and Z-moves are present. This meta is just a really weird mishmash of mechanics. The simplest and most understandable way of handling this would be Gen 8 mechanics with the expanded roster. That’s it. Even more questionable is the inclusion of moves like Pursuit which no longer exist. The meta is called National Dex not Random Grab Bag of old Mechanics and Moves. It’s so far removed from OU mechanics at this point that it’s not simulating anything. This is a great opportunity to unwind the power creep in Nat Dex by removing these mechanics and following regular OU’s lead when Dynamax is inevitably banned.
 
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Mega-Blastoise: the meteoric rise of this Pokémon continues to surprise me, and has very quickly proven itself to be one of the most dangerous offensive Pokemon in the tier. And it's usage has started to pick up over the past week. Its shell smash set is extremely difficult to counter reliably outside of keeping SpD, Unaware mon's(Clef and Pyuku) healthy, which also has to worry about Blastoise that often pair themselves with other breakers. A large part of its success is not knowing what it's movepool is, as well as being able to set up on a large number of Pokémon, as ascribed by it's bulk. While its other sets are only decent, its Shell Smash set is extremely difficult to stop once it gets going, and outside of Scarf Greninja, Scarf Koko, ditto, and chlorophyll sweepers with a higher base speed i.e. Venu, it's very difficult to revenge kill. It has practically made Screens even more viable just from its presence, in addition to its near perfect coverage, which allows it to pick it's checks and counters, at times. It's easily one of the most underappreciated, yet defining offensive Pokemon in the tier
 
I think the problem with Blaziken is his coverage and ability to make said coverage deal nutty damage. Unlike Genesect who is usually choice locked, if Blaziken gets one Swords Dance in, he basically gets the same treatment as Scarf Darm in that he gets boosted in both atk and ape. Also the mega evolution speed changes can make him straight up forgo protect for another move. After one swords dance he just has too much damage.

And dynamax is on its way out so its not like you can dyna to tank a +2 flare blitz in the near future. And if you dont use mega blaziken but regular blaziken, you can use a choice item to augment either his speed or his power. Basically, he becomes a worse darm due to his potential to end the game with one swords dance.

Edit: Gyarados and Azu are nicked by Thunder Punch and no one uses Salamence
Salamence will begin to look, since you can do the same as a gyarados: use dragon dance and then use dynamax
and I return to what I said before: as a blaziken he will use sword dance if with a blow they leave him touched by life and then use a priority attack and kill him.
I do not deny the dynamax, but almost any pkmn that increases statistics and uses dynamax can sweep a team
 
Even without its Mega, Dynamax Blaziken would quickly become the star of the Metagame, having its Max Flare give its subsequent Fire attacks a big buff in power, Max Knuckle boosting its Attack stat, all while getting a consistent speed increase every turn. It can use Nax Quake to eliminate Toxapex and simultaneously boost its SpD, while Max Airstream can hit mons like Mantine while boosting it's speed even further. Blaziken is literally at its most broken it has ever been. No thanks.
what you say is almost the same as gyarados dynamax does, with the difference that blaziken usually takes between 2 and 3 attacks, since the other movements usually use it in protection and / or sword dance.
imagine that blaziken is normally only worn with protection, flare blitz, brave bird and high jump kick.
What would you do against a gyarados? for that match it would be forced to be used with thunder punch, which has a low power.
Azumarill does not kill him from a thunder punch, except to Toxapex and for this he would be required to carry an earthquake, and this would make him unable to fight against gyarados.
blaziken is not so difficult to stop, only that people are afraid that the attack and speed will rise when it is not very easy for that to happen, since it would be left with little coverage against pkmn that dominate the meta
 
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I think the same about normal Zamazenta who has bad typing, and if it lost its ability, it would likely be fine in OU.
Normal Zamazenta is if anything better than Crowned -- it hits really hard with Band, has most of the coverage it needs, and the relevant non-ubers which outspeed it can be counted on one hand. Its stats are also pretty well optimised for a 680BST mon. Even without the ability, I think it would be too strong for OU.
 

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what you say is almost the same as gyarados dynamax does, with the difference that blaziken usually takes between 2 and 3 attacks, since the other movements usually use it in protection and / or sword dance.
imagine that blaziken is normally only worn with protection, flare blitz, brave bird and high jump kick.
What would you do against a gyarados? for that match it would be forced to be used with thunder punch, which has a low power.
Azumarill does not kill him from a thunder punch, except to Toxapex and for this he would be required to carry an earthquake, and this would make him unable to fight against gyarados.
blaziken is not so difficult to stop, only that people are afraid that the attack and speed will rise when it is not very easy for that to happen, since it would be left with little coverage against pkmn that dominate the meta
You can run Swords Dance instead of Protect, seeing that Gyarados and Blaziken are almost identical speed, at the end of the turn Blaziken would have +2 Attack and +1 Speed. And you rightfully mention Thunder Punch, as that allows it to hit most of the Bulky Waters supereffectively, snipes Gyarados, and snips things like Mega Charizard Y. I do not know why you think its weak since its main draw is hitting what its weak to it and setting up Terrain. Bringing up Thunder Punch only cements this Pokémon as a broken mon in a dynamaxmetagame that should not be unbanned. Besides, even if it doesnt run Thunder Punch and subsequently has problems handling Guarados, does that mean that its balanced? I find your reasoning troubling, especially since you bring up Pokémon like Azumarill which are simply not relevant in Nat Dex.
 
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