Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[metal box]

Is Suicune common(-ish)? I ran into one and almost lost because I wasn't prepped for it. I was wondering if using seed bomb or bullet seed on Amoonguss over giga drain would be worth it.

Its not common at all unfortunately, but I think its really good. Ive seen more Raikou on ladder than it

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

OK, these are terrible examples. You're cherry picking calcs here, and you aren't even using actual fully defensive sets either. A banded, adamant TTar using a super effective, STAB move, and it STILL doesn't guarantee an OHKO. That literally isn't even a fully defensed out Deoxys Here's the same calc with full defense:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

That's right, it never OHKOs, and with stealth rocks up:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

You still live 7/8 games. That's insane bulk. Here's another one of your calcs being wonky. Black hole eclipse from Hydreigon, super effective, zero special defense investment on the Deoxys(What???), and you call that an example of no bulk?

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Defense: 260-308 (85.5 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Look at that. Deoxys-D almost always lives a STAB super effective Z-move from a strong special attacker. That is absurd. That calc with kartana using knock off? Deoxys-D always lives the second knock off since it's weaker, meaning it can recover stall with pressure, or use it to set up hazards. That's a super effective coverage move from one of the strongest attackers in the tier, yet it can live the 2HKO.

Here's some other, IMO, meaningful examples of what Deoxys D could check.

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 121-142 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon(195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Defense: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-Defense: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 70-83 (23 - 27.3%) -- 1.3% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

These are all strong moves, and yeah, some of these switches are risky, like with Kartana or Gren, but Deoxys-D can yum yum up most hits.

I think the most ample comparison would be to compare it to Toxapex. Deoxys-D has 8 more defense, 18 more special defense, 55 more speed, and 17 more Aptack. These are all relevant. That speed lets Deoxys D outspeed and taunt other walls, winning the hazard wars everytime. It can actually run a few offensive techs randomly, chunking some switch ins. Psycho Boost is pretty strong even off 70 Sptack.

0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham: 144-169 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 135-160 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 123-145 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 134-158 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

So these calcs aren't world beater calcs by any means, but these are solid chunks compared to to what a toxapex can whip out. You mentioned being set up bait for Kartana, but that psycho boost puts kartana in range of water shuriken from Ash-Gren if it hits 3 times or more, assuming its a modest greninja ash. You couldn't just switch kartana in without fear of recourse in that scenario. It could also taunt on the switch if it needed too.

Some other stuff that Deoxys D can do reliably: Trick Room setter, can set up screens, can spread paralysis with thunderwave, toxicing pokes, as already mentioned, it has both spikes and stealth rocks, can knock things off, it even has rock tomb to slow people down in hazard wars.

I'm not saying that Deoxys-D should be banned. I actually think it would be quite nice to have as a general defensive wall that's relatively speedy. Underestimating its flexibility and raw bulk isn't wise though; it's a strong mon no doubt.

Well of course I skewed the data and cherrypicked calcs to fit my argument. And it worked, didn't it? I got Deoxys-Defense unbanned promptly by simply making fun of it and listing every viable dark type that exists. Its all about the mind games.

Also, to the viability list, I would add:

(Trick Room Belly Drum) Gigantamax Snorlax is low key busted. This gen has been incredibly kind to Snorlax with Heat Crash and Darkest Lariat, and G-Max Replenish is just bonkers.

(Thousand Waves) Thousand Waves isn't nearly as powerful as it was with power construct, but its still a good trapper that can equal a sudden 6-0 sweep if he traps a passive Pokemon. I suspect this set will become more powerful when dynamax is gone because then there will truly be no get of out jail card for a +3 Thousand Arrows.

(Assault Vest, Choice Band, RestTalk) Did people really forget about this mon when they realized that Metagross exists? Melmetal doesn't use up a Mega slot and has a Gigantamax, so he may have synergy on teams with Shell Smash Mega Blastoise.

(RestTalk, Coil) Centiskorch retains a smidgen of viability by virtue of Flash Fire and Fire Lash, giving him a crucial edge over Heatran in a superior offensive presence and ability to break down walls better (like Fire Lash is definitely one of the best offensive moves in the game). Fire Lash means that Centiskorch breaks through Toxapex, Corsola, Clefable and Chansey in most situations and outlast Heatran. Really it's all about fire lash.

(Assault Vest, Defensive) Amoonguss is used for the role compression of Tangrowth but with Toxic Immunity and Clear Smog. Also checks Heatran and Magnezone with stomping tantrum lol.

 

[Poppliodorable]

Hello! I'm a semi-casual player who's been playing Showdown since gen 6, and I've been lurking on the forums since the start of this gen. I've been playing a decent amount of NatDex OU (this format is pretty much everything I hoped we'd be able to get on Showdown with the dex cut happening in the games), and decided to make my first post on these forums with some of my own observations of the format.

On some of the new Pokémon:
Galarian Darmanitan is still quite strong here, mainly as a scarf user, as base 95 speed doesn't really cut it in the natdex meta to be able to run band on it. It still hits quite hard with CBCS, and I found that it paired reasonably well with other iconic fast VoltTurn users like Tapu Koko and Scarf Landorus-T, as you could pivot between them to wear down opponents quite quickly.
Galarian Corsola is a strong addition to the pantheon of Eviolite walls, faring especially well against physical attackers thanks to strength sap and will-o-wisp.
Cinderace's Court Change is a really powerful tool against hazards, and I've found it performs quite well even without ProteanLibero. It's reasonably fast and hits pretty hard (Pyro Ball is a really good move), and it'll only get better once it gets Libero.
Dragapult may not be as good overall here as in regular gen 8 OU, but I've been having a lot of fun with the sub-disable set. It does struggle a bit with the fact that there are more viable normal types around (looking at you, Chansey), but it still seems like a solid option. The sub-disable set is especially good against more passive mons, as it can sit behind a substitute while disabling their main attack that would break it. I have yet to try out its other sets, but it still seems quite viable overall. It's very fast even for this meta, outspeeding things like Koko and Greninja, and has a lot of different options at its disposal.
I have not yet used Dracovish, but as someone who tends to build teams that overall lean more towards the defensive side I live in fear of the fish. This thing is an absurd wallbreaker, and it's hard to get in a faster counter if it comes in at the wrong time. I've been running Mega Venusaur, and Fishious Rend still blasts even that for just under 50%. It's incredibly scary to play around without going to the lengths of including a water immunity on your team.

On some of the returning Pokémon:
Things like Tapu Koko, Lando-T, Chansey, Greninja, Heatran, Kartana, etc. are still very good, doing a lot of the same things they did in gen 7.
I've been a big fan of Mega Venusaur for a while and it's still really good, as there are not many things that have an easy time breaking through it unless they run flying or psychic coverage. It's definitely hurt a bit by Dynamax incentivizing flying moves to be more common, but I've found that it can still check a lot of non-flying threats. And for those...
Aegislash is legal again! I can finally use my favorite Pokemon in my favorite format! I've found Aegislash to be quite strong in this meta but no longer broken, and I look forward to (hopefully) continuing to use it. It pairs quite well with Mega-Venusaur, as it can easily tank the flying and psychic hits that threaten venusaur, while venusaur, thanks to Thick Fat and its solid bulk, performs reasonably well against some of the fire and ground types that would threaten Aegislash. Its solid bulk and typing allows it to 1v1 a lot of Pokémon effectively, and it being immune to basically everything Chansey can throw at it has definitely been nice for forcing the pink blob out.
Clefable with Unaware was really good against the significant increase in the number of setup sweepers I've been seeing... until that bug came up making it unusable. Hope this gets fixed soon!
Also, I know it's not actually that great and is pretty much entirely outclassed by Chansey, I just really like eviolite Porygon2. It's still really annoying to kill, and it does take physical hits a bit better than Chansey. Also, having ice beam and nonzero attacking stats allows it to pick up kills against things like gliscor and lando-T.

On the meta as a whole:
To me, the meta seems reasonably balanced so far (since the banning of Kyurem-B), and I look forward to seeing where this format goes from here. I have noticed more setup sweepers running around than in gen 7, which is likely due to the increased availability of boosting moves this gen. I've found Dynamax to be less busted than in non-NatDex formats, but I would definitely not be sad to see it go.

(And just to briefly touch on the apparent controversy, I like that this meta is basically adding everything from gen 8 on top of everything from gen 7, and while I am somewhat indifferent on z-moves I would be very sad to see megas go, as they are practically whole different Pokémon than their non-mega forms, and being unable to dynamax makes running a mega (or z-move) on a Pokémon much more of a cost than it used to be if dynamax sticks around.)

Bruh, Aegislash has already been in Sword/Shield.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Gengar and Milotic

I struggle to see the use of Milotic beyond checking Vish and GDarm, which Jelli, Bro or Vap can do better. I can see the merit of Scarf and Nasty Plot Gengar, so I will add it to the list. However, I still think that the defensive niche Hydreigon holds (checks Heatran, Ash-Greninja, etc) will make it a more viable pick overall. Also, I’ve been trying a Scarf Trick + Nasty Plot set, thoughts about that?

Big list

I might add Snorlax, but not for the set you have. From the bat, you have a three turn window to sweep because of Trick Room and Gigantimaxing, which uses your Dyna on something thatprobably wants it more (read: Magearna). I mkght add lax because its great with Zone support and Curse, but eve; then I’d consider it fringe viable. TWaves Zyg is Dugtrio lite edition. Melmetal vs Megagross comparison is kinda weird because Megagross is just...slot better. Great Speed, neutrality to Fighting and Stealth Rock make it easier to fit on teams, whereas Mel is a big lug that hits hard. Guss is already on there. Centiskorch is pretty cool, it’s a physical attacker that checks LO Clef and Kart, so I’ll add it.

CM Suicune and BU Buzzwole

These are fine, I’ll add them.

Lastly, I’ve added Shedinja, Salamence and Volcanion to the potentially viable list. Shedinja can finally be seen without immense hazard support thanks to HDB, while Salamence has become an incredible Max Airstream ahuser on par with Gyarados or Kartana. Volcanion is interesting though, as it is the only Draco check I can find who Defogs and has incredible offensive presence thanks to Fire+Water+Ground coverage being very strong. In other words, it turns offensive threats into momentum for you to abuse.

 

[UltraxBlade]

Bruh, Aegislash has already been in Sword/Shield.

Dude, by "returning" I meant "not new" (as in "returning for another generation", although you could also argue that Aegislash is "returning" to OU from Ubers), which should be obvious by the structure of my post and that fact, and I'm not sure why you felt the need to say this in response to an old post in an otherwise mostly constructive thread.

Anyway, on to the main reason I'm here! I think Volcanion deserves some consideration in this metagame. The unholy abomination that is Dracovish has turned Water Absorb from a minor bonus to a near-necessity on a lot of teams, bringing things like Seismitoad from irrelevant to viable, and Volcanion stands out to me as a strong Water Absorb user that NatDex gives us access to. It has solid bulk, good special attack, and a decent movepool including its signature super-Scald, Steam Eruption. Heavy-Duty Boots are a big upgrade for this 'mon, as hazards used to be a real problem for it, and Fire/Water typing has some relevant resists against some of the major new threats, most notably quad resists to Ice and Fire from G-Darm, but also a quad resist to Steel and resists to Fairy and U-Turn. Its weaknesses to Rock, Electric, and especially Ground hurt, but these types of attacks can be fairly easily exploited by partners such as the infamous Lando-T. Volcanion also gets access to some solid utility options, such as Toxic and Defog. Here's the set I'm going to be starting with:

Volcanion @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Earth Power / Sludge Bomb
- Toxic / Defog / Protect
(protect would allow it to scout for G-Darm's Earthquake to lock it in and get a safe switch to a Flying 'mon. This is less effective while Dynamax is legal, but is still an option worth considering)

Some relevant calcs:
Scarf G-Darm:
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Volcanion: 268-316 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan-Galar: 474-560 (135 - 159.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dynamaxing G-Darm's Max Quake actually hits for less, but Volc can't OHKO back thanks to the extra health and SpDef boost, even if it Dynamaxes itself (although if they max simultaneously Volc easily takes two quakes and wins the 1v1)
Volcanion still can't survive Band G-Darm's EQ without maxing tho:
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Volcanion: 400-472 (110.1 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Dracovish:
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Volcanion: 195-229 (53.7 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarfed:
252+ Atk Dracovish Outrage vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Volcanion: 130-154 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I believe Dynamaxed Vish 3HKO's with Max Wyrmwind as well, as it loses Band bonus, but I haven't checked what the base power on Maxed Outrage becomes to do an exact calc, I tried with 140 BP and it 3HKO's:
252+ Atk Dracovish Outrage140BP vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Volcanion: 151-178 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Either way, it forces the use of Dynamax on Vish (which is generally a really bad Dynamax user, as Rend hits harder without it) or locks it into Outrage (which would only happen on a prediction anyway, switching into Rend forces it to Dynamax or switch) allowing an easy switch to a fairy.

Overall, Volcanion seems like a solid option for answering both Dracovish and G-Darm, and would be even better if/when Dynamax goes, as it can exploit both of their choice locks very well to force them out, while being an overall solid pokemon beyond those two major matchups. I'll be testing it a bit more, but thought I should put it out there.

(In theory, Volcanion should pair well with Lando-T, as it is immune to both its electric and ground weaknesses while offensively covering rock-types and Lando appreciates Volcanion's ability to deal with G-Darm or force it into Quake, and with fairy-types, as Volcanion can struggle to deal with dragons, but I'll be doing more testing to see what works best.)

Lastly, I’ve added Shedinja, Salamence and Volcanion to the potentially viable list. Shedinja can finally be seen without immense hazard support thanks to HDB, while Salamence has become an incredible Max Airstream ahuser on par with Gyarados or Kartana. Volcanion is interesting though, as it is the only Draco check I can find who Defogs and has incredible offensive presence thanks to Fire+Water+Ground coverage being very strong. In other words, it turns offensive threats into momentum for you to abuse.

And I see someone else beat me to the punch on Volcanion as I was writing this lol. It seems definitely worth considering in the brave new world of Vish and G-Darm.

 

[UltraxBlade]

I think Volcanion can also check the standard build of the fringe Zen Mode G-Darm, as they usually only run ice and fire attacks alongside sub and belly drum. I haven’t done calcs on this yet though, and it would obviously get obliterated by one running quake.

 

[Sputnik]

I struggle to see the use of Milotic beyond checking Vish and GDarm, which Jelli, Bro or Vap can do better. I can see the merit of Scarf and Nasty Plot Gengar, so I will add it to the list. However, I still think that the defensive niche Hydreigon holds (checks Heatran, Ash-Greninja, etc) will make it a more viable pick overall. Also, I’ve been trying a Scarf Trick + Nasty Plot set, thoughts about that?

Yeah Milotic is very niche overall so I can understand not putting it on, although not being weak to Vish's normal coverage moves can give it the edge in some situations. And I agree that Drei is overall better than Gengar but that speed tier is helpful in a lot of matchups.

I haven't personally tried Scarf Trick+Nasty Plot but it seems like it could be pretty good if you can wield it correctly. The reliance on matchup and when you dynamax makes it sound high maintenence but it could be deadly in the right hands.

 

[Sputnik]

I think Volcanion can also check the standard build of the fringe Zen Mode G-Darm, as they usually only run ice and fire attacks alongside sub and belly drum. I haven’t done calcs on this yet though, and it would obviously get obliterated by one running quake.

Zen Mode G-Darm actually run Earthquake quite often so I really wouldn't say that Volcanion checks it on a consistent basis.

 

[UltraxBlade]

Zen Mode G-Darm actually run Earthquake quite often so I really wouldn't say that Volcanion checks it on a consistent basis.

Good to know, zen mode is off-meta so I hadn't seen enough of it to be sure of what it runs.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

This post is about my opinion on the new drops and trends.

The New Drops



While I like its ability to force switches, Its a scarfer that gives free setup for Volcarona which is really bad in this metagame. Tbh I struggle to justify using its other sets like CB, SG, and Rock Polish. Mega-Metagross is straight up better in this role in my opinion. This purely because Genesect isn't that good in performing the "Steel-Type Role" because of how frail it is. Meaning you often have to stack another Steel-Type that can actually check Psychics and Fairies consistently, basically stacking your weakness to fire types like Heatran and Victini. In my opinion its best set is Choice Specs because its a real beast on spike stacking offensive teams.

The Set
Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / Hidden Power [Ground]
- U-turn



Great at laying down hazards, kinda mediocre at being a wall. This thing aint breaking stall with taunt either since Mega-Sableye is a staple. Honestly this thing is passive as fuck. And it even suffers from 4MMS because it really wants to run Seismic Toss, Spikes, Stealth Rocks, Taunt, Recover, Toxic, Knock Off, and Skill Swap. But it can't so It has some real big problems in this metagame. I will just stick with Ferrothorn for the time being.

Trends



This thing is wack lol. Dynamax really needs to go because holy shit this thing is pushing the team building process to its absolute limit. Have fun reliing on Pex to wall this thing when its gets Max Mindstorm.



Also busted but this time it forces you to use very specific counterplay like water immunities.



This thing is so stupid lol. Its "checks" all die to some hazard chip. This is another mon that makes team building really hard to pull off.



SubToxic is really annoying to face but that does not change the fact that this thing was hit really hard this gen. Don't need to explain why.

Opinion On The Metagame

I think the metagame is alright but Dynamax and Z-Moves make it really uncompetive because of they're unpredictability. Z-Moves also can't boast about being the "Generations Defining Mechanic" anymore so I think removing both of them would be the way to go to. We all know how bad Gen 7 was at the end with mons like Kartana and Magearna making the metagame really match up based.

 

[Cabneet]

So are we not banning dynamax in natdex?
My one hope is that this wack, broken shit would be fixed once dynamax was banned. It didnt even occur to me that not banning dynamax was an OPTION in natdex. Even if it didnt get banned in OU I was confident it MUST get banned in natdex, because it's so CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY a much more broken and problematic mechanic than it is even in OU.
SURELY we wont have to wait some arbitrary and grossly lengthy amount of time for this shit to get the banhammer, right?
I never even considered dynamax when it came to team building and balance, because SURELY anybody with eyes could see that dynamax is the primary thing holding this meta back, right?
SURELY they could see that this OM is half abandoned because people take one look at landorus using max airstream, go "this shit is wack" and never come back, right?

But seriously Dmax is thrice as broken here as it is in OU and the fact that we apparently need our own suspect is retarded. Get it banned, get it out of here. Dynamax has ruined this mode basically from the START, and myself and I'm sure many others have put up with it because we were confident it would be banned in short order.
It really doesnt matter so much that we arent an official tier, you guys can unban and ban shit on a whim because we had a short discussion about it on these very forums ala deoxys-d. There is no coherent argument to support dmax in natdex. It is CLEARLY broken, even more so than it tiers where it has already been banned. It is actively making this mode much, much worse than it can be and should get btfo AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

 

[metal box]

Im not opposed to a suspect but Dynamax is nowhere near as broken as it is in regular OU. The incompatibility with Z moves and Mega evolutions gives the ability a greater opportunity cost (if you want to use Mega Metagross or Mega Blastoise eg suddenly you only have 5 Dynamaxers, which seriously reduces the unpredictability factor that is part of what makes the ability so strong). Also, the "dynamax as a defensive measure" argument was dumb as fuck in regular OU but here its been successfuly relevant every time I've needed to stop a Dynamax sweep, Dmaxing Clefable to stop a Salamence or Hawlucha, or a Rotom-W to stop a Gyarados or Blacephalon. On that last point two mons like Hawlucha, Gyarados and Togekiss that could abuse Dmax to absurd levels in regular OU are still good sweepers here, but essentially demand that you use a Dynamax "slot" on them since theyre such dogshit if youve burnt your Dmax already that game. There are obviously arguments to be made against Dmax and I think as the mechanic and its best abusers are explored more (eg, stop putting Z Crystals on all your teams) its going to become more broken but it deserves a fairer look than just treating it as "as busted or worse than it was in regular OU", because its very obviously not

 

[Sputnik]

I'm definitely in support of a dynamax suspect here, and if it came to it I would probably support a ban.

Dynamaxing is definitely a little more...predictable at least here, and there are arguments to be made for that factor making it worse overall, but make no mistake; dynamaxing is still crazy good here. We have all the abusers that got it banned in OU plus new terrors like Kartana, Salamence, and Landorus-T. Dynamaxing in general still largely has the ame issues that got it nuked from standard OU. The fact that Ditto is highly recommended on almost every team style speaks for itself.

On that last point two mons like Hawlucha, Gyarados and Togekiss that could abuse Dmax to absurd levels in regular OU are still good sweepers here, but essentially demand that you use a Dynamax "slot" on them since theyre such dogshit if youve burnt your Dmax already that game.

You lost me here. Togekiss sure but Gyarados and Lucha are still extremely dangerous in their own right even if you have already dynamaxed. KokoLucha isn't quite as potent but is still a solid option and Gyarados loses out on its one turn Flying Stab but Water+Ground is still good enough to put the hurt on a lot of things. A lot of our other Dmax abusers are still very dangerous even if you haven't dynamaxed, and having more than one of these on a team is fine.

I definitely think a suspect is in order, and I would personally support a ban. It's a bit more predictable, sure, but a lot of what made it broken in normal OU still applies here.

 

[UltraxBlade]

I think a Dynamax suspect is definitely a good idea, and I would likely support a ban in that case. NatDex is a more powerful format than regional OU overall, which means it has both better Dynamax abusers and better options for counterplay, so I do believe we should suspect it for ourselves instead of quickbanning it based on the results in regional OU. Megas and Z-move users being unable to Dynamax does weaken the mechanic a little, but as I see it this is far worse for Megas and especially Z-moves than it is for Dynamax, as Dynamax is clearly far stronger than Z-(attack)moves and losing out on the option to Dynamax a Pokemon is a significant cost to running either, plus Z-moves aren't seen on every team anyway even without Dynamax, and you can still Dynamax your other 4-5 Pokemon without a Mega/Z-move. We all know how powerful Dynamax is, how hard it snowballs, how limited its counterplay can be, and how much it warps games around itself, and I personally would be in favor of a ban when a suspect comes.

On a larger scale, with Gen 8 still being fairly new, as a format NatDex OU may want to consider running suspect tests on anything that ends up banned from regional OU going forward, at least until things stabilize a bit. While some things banned in regional OU may be fine in the more powerful NatDex OU, some of the new Pokemon might still end up being too good here for similar reasons as the generation is explored more and in the wake of a decision on Dynamax. I'm specifically eyeing G-Darm, which has become a major force in this metagame already and is currently heading for a suspect in regional OU (the Dynamax ban there, while it has some drawbacks for G-Darm no longer being able to break its choice lock, seems to have helped it overall by removing the ability to Dynamax defensively against it), and Dracovish, which is just an absurd and format-warping Pokemon that I would love to erase from existence and is likely up next for discussion after G-Darm in regional (seriously, Dracovish getting a good switch in against a team without a water immunity nearly guarantees a Pokemon dying, and forcing every slower team to run otherwise niche mons just to be able to switch into Vish is not healthy IMO). These mons may end up being fine here with the higher overall power level, but they should probably be discussed here if/when they eventually are banned in regional OU even if they don't end up being banworthy.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

I don't understand why this is even a discussion. We've been through this like eight times, and every single time we reach the same conclusion: No one fucking likes dynamax.

I'll say it again. No one fucking likes dynamax.
You know what? I'll say it again. No one fucking likes dynamax.

Its not a matter of 'if' or 'how much' dynamax is broken, it's more of a matter of 'why is this still up for debate'. Dynamax has been deemed OP in a metagame much passive than ours - 63.8% to be exact. It should be an absolute no brainer that dynamax is unfit for this mode.

You could do as much mental gymnastics as you like ,It doesnt matter that dynamax is "less broken" in NDOU, its still broken and is the reason why its not growing as big as it should. and frankly, there is a reason why some people to be, quoth another Smogon user recently 'an embarrassment to Smogon' and dismiss it, because of needless problems like this that could be solved so easily.
Sorry for the melodrama

 

[Sereg]

I don't understand why this is even a discussion. We've been through this like eight times, and every single time we reach the same conclusion: No one fucking likes dynamax.

I'll say it again. No one fucking likes dynamax.
You know what? I'll say it again. No one fucking likes dynamax.

Its not a matter of 'if' or 'how much' dynamax is broken, it's more of a matter of 'why is this still up for debate'. Dynamax has been deemed OP in a metagame much passive than ours - 63.8% to be exact. It should be an absolute no brainer that dynamax is unfit for this mode.

You could do as much mental gymnastics as you like ,It doesnt matter that dynamax is "less broken" in NDOU, its still broken and is the reason why its not growing as big as it should. and frankly, there is a reason why some people to be, quoth another Smogon user recently 'an embarrassment to Smogon' and dismiss it, because of needless problems like this that could be solved so easily.
Sorry for the melodrama

I like it. You are demonstratably wrong. Now, I won't object if it gets banned, but the fact that it has downsides not present in Galar-only means that if it is banned without a suspect like it got in Galar-only, it means that due process wasn't followed.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

I like it. You are demonstratably wrong.

Reading in between the lines I meant that no one in their right mind can in good faith vouch for dynamax. I like dynamax too, but for perverted reasons that need not be elaborated on.

So I'll rephrase it. No one in their right mind wants dynamax to remain in this tier. Its literally killing it

 

[UltraxBlade]

Reading in between the lines I meant that no one in their right mind can in good faith vouch for dynamax. I like dynamax too, but for perverted reasons that need not be elaborated on.

So I'll rephrase it. No one in their right mind wants dynamax to remain in this tier. Its literally killing it

I agree that Dynamax should go, but I also agree with Sereg that, as much as it is pretty much a foregone conclusion, it should be given a suspect test, and that test should start ASAP. The sooner it happens, the sooner we can get it out and move on. Unfortunately, we haven’t necessarily seen the fastest responses in this format (still waiting for Unaware Clefable to be properly legalized again)...

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Tyranitar @ Tanga Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Atk / 168 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit
- Earthquake

This set is really bad but because of Volcarona its a actual set I've ran. One thing I've noticed about team building is that fitting Stealth Rocks on a team is way harder than in previous gens. 92 Atk is so you can 1HKO Dynamaxed Bulky Volcarona. Because AV doesn't work with Stealth Rocks, I ran Tanga Berry to take like 1 Max Flutterby at +1.

Yeah I would be down with a quickban on Dynamax. Whats the point when everyone thinks its broken. Saying "It isn't as broken" isn't saying much. Also the fact that you can't use Z-Moves with it is a non-argument because thats like saying Landorus-I isn't broken because you can't use Landorus-T with it.

Heres the team I actually managed to fit it on here. As you can see, team building is really awkward in the current metagame. I hope the council does there best in making the Metagame as competitive and fun as possible.

 

[Funbot28]

Dynamax is being suspected in National Dex OU

Please use that thread to discuss Dynamax in NDOU. You may still post on the general metagame here of course.

 

[N_Mareanie]

While this meta is very hectic and insane because of Dynamax, I still want to share some niche Pokémon I've been enjoying a lot with y'all.

Sets

Incineroar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Taunt

Incineroar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 72 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- Earthquake

Incineroar is really nice between two sets, being Defensive and AV. Defensive is extremely nice to have a really valuable check to Mega Metagross, Aegislash (it can Taunt Aegislash to prevent it from using Toxic), Corviknight, Shift Gear Genesect, Deoxys-Defense, and even Melmetal. Parting Shot is nice for its general switch ins such as Landorus, Zygarde, Garchomp etc. so lower their offensive presence and get in something like Greninja, and try to get a kill to transform into Ash Greninja (or get up a Spike as they switch).
Assault Vest is also nice to check certain meta threats like BoltBeam Magearna, special Genesect (doesn't get 2HKO'd by +1 LO Bug Buzz), Mega Lat@s and LO Clefable. This set needs a bit more support, since you get hit by entry hazards, but since hazard removal is well enough available it shouldn't be much of a problem (most form a double U-turn/VoltTurn core with it, like Landorus-T, Rotom-Wash, Tornadus-T).
It's a cool Pokémon. Needs some support (mainly Wish support and hazard removal. Clefable is a nice partner because it also checks Zygarde, and can struggle against Aegislash and Mega Metagross, which Incineroar checks nicely.)

Set

Glaceon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ground]

I shouldn't be having as much fun with this as I should, but holy shit, this thing can put in such amounts of work. It getting Freeze-Dry is the only reason I considered using it at all, and it slaps so hard. Freeze-Dry can nuke so many of the bulky Waters in the tier that would originally give it trouble, Toxapex being the main one of course. Glaceon also has some pretty nice Physical Defense which allows it to soft check Zygarde. It hits so incredibly hard with that base 130 Sp. Atk, 2HKO'ing 'mons like Ferrothorn. You absolutely need this on a hazard stacking team though (Mew, Ferrothorn, Deoxys-D), but I promise you, it will put in so much work. Dugtrio is also a nice partner for it because it can trap Heatran and Chansey (if you're Screech Groundium Z).

This meta still needs a lot of exploring, and that will definitely happen after the Dynamax ban, and I'm really excited to see what will pop up!

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Things I predict will happen with the death of dynamax.

Mega Metagross Suspect
It need not be said that Mega Metagross is the perfect offensive Pokemon. His stats, typing, and movepool is too well optimized. He hits insanely hard and is incredibly hard to wall, but yet for an offensive Pokemon he has 80/150/110 defenses, and stellar defensive typing. The reason why he is balanced now is because he can't dynamax, while almost everyone else can (there are like three viable megas in Nat dex ou) When dynamax is gone, hoo boy he will become a threat of gigantic proportions.

Darmanitan-Galar Suspect
Darmanitan-Galar was always ban worthy, but a more passive meta without dynamax to stomach hits will finally make his ability to 6-0 teams truly unexcusable. People will try to compromise and say that Gorrila Tactics is the sole OP thing about Darm and the ability itself should be banned but then some punk ass motherfucker will regurgitate the slippery slope "Level 80 Arceus should be unbanned" argument and so Zen Mode Darm too will die.

Landorus Unban
Landorus's wallbreaking capabilities aren't nearly as strong as they were in the past thanks to his shallow movepool, flimsiness, and beatable speed tier. After some brief discussion power will unban Landorus. He'll be hard pressed to find a spot in many tightly knit balance squads and that will be the end of it.

Pheromosa Unban
For the first time in forever, all is good. Every excruciating problem is taken care of: Dynamax is gone. Darm is gone. Things are nice. People believe that the presence of Aegislash and shit will make Pheromosa manageable. She is unbanned.

Pheromosa Re-Ban
Five hours later ppl will realize that they fucked up. Pheromosa easily breaks past Aegislash and Toxapex thanks to various coverage in Drill Run and Throat Chop. She is banned.

That's what I got so far.

 

[Cabneet]

Things

As hilarious as this is I'm gonna have to contest your landorus-I prediction.
You say its movepool and power are lacking in today's meta, but in what ways? What mons does lando-I not have coverage and power for? Its speed especially is still fine, as most of gen 8 is slow as hell and hasnt really added many fast mons. Hell I'd say base 101 is an amazing speed tier in 2020 minus 8 days. What new threats really handle lando-i?
I'd be down for a re-suspect but I doubt it would stay. I dont see how the meta has changed to handle it better outside of dmax which is getting banned anyway. (And it can also potentially abuse)

 

[UltraxBlade]

Things I predict will happen with the death of dynamax.

Mega Metagross Suspect
It need not be said that Mega Metagross is the perfect offensive Pokemon. His stats, typing, and movepool is too well optimized. He hits insanely hard and is incredibly hard to wall, but yet for an offensive Pokemon he has 80/150/110 defenses, and stellar defensive typing. The reason why he is balanced now is because he can't dynamax, while almost everyone else can (there are like three viable megas in Nat dex ou) When dynamax is gone, hoo boy he will become a threat of gigantic proportions.

Darmanitan-Galar Suspect
Darmanitan-Galar was always ban worthy, but a more passive meta without dynamax to stomach hits will finally make his ability to 6-0 teams truly unexcusable. People will try to compromise and say that Gorrila Tactics is the sole OP thing about Darm and the ability itself should be banned but then some punk ass motherfucker will regurgitate the slippery slope "Level 80 Arceus should be unbanned" argument and so Zen Mode Darm too will die.

Landorus Unban
Landorus's wallbreaking capabilities aren't nearly as strong as they were in the past thanks to his shallow movepool, flimsiness, and beatable speed tier. After some brief discussion power will unban Landorus. He'll be hard pressed to find a spot in many tightly knit balance squads and that will be the end of it.

Pheromosa Unban
For the first time in forever, all is good. Every excruciating problem is taken care of: Dynamax is gone. Darm is gone. Things are nice. People believe that the presence of Aegislash and shit will make Pheromosa manageable. She is unbanned.

Pheromosa Re-Ban
Five hours later ppl will realize that they fucked up. Pheromosa easily breaks past Aegislash and Toxapex thanks to various coverage in Drill Run and Throat Chop. She is banned.

That's what I got so far.

One other to add:
Dracovish Suspect
We all know what Mr. Fish does. He comes in. He clicks the same move every time. He 2HKO’s even his bulkiest resists. Dracovish’s very existence pretty much mandates a Water Absorb user on any slower team or you’re basically guaranteed to lose a mon each time Vish gets a favorable switchin. And of course faster teams have to watch out for Scarf, or the eventual release of Sand Rush. Vish is an incredibly format-warping Pokémon that puts a significant constraint on teambuilding, and it becomes even more potent in a Dynamax-free meta, as it is abysmal Dynamaxer, its foes can no longer max to tank a Rend, and there will be more bulky teams around for it to crush. Maybe this is just me as a defensively-inclined player being wishful, but Dracovish is such an absurd Pokémon that I feel it deserves a ban after we deal with Dynamax and the others. But maybe it won’t happen, because people don’t like stall and anything that can screw stall must be a good thing, right?

 

[N_Mareanie]

Things I predict will happen with the death of dynamax.

Mega Metagross Suspect
It need not be said that Mega Metagross is the perfect offensive Pokemon. His stats, typing, and movepool is too well optimized. He hits insanely hard and is incredibly hard to wall, but yet for an offensive Pokemon he has 80/150/110 defenses, and stellar defensive typing. The reason why he is balanced now is because he can't dynamax, while almost everyone else can (there are like three viable megas in Nat dex ou) When dynamax is gone, hoo boy he will become a threat of gigantic proportions.

Darmanitan-Galar Suspect
Darmanitan-Galar was always ban worthy, but a more passive meta without dynamax to stomach hits will finally make his ability to 6-0 teams truly unexcusable. People will try to compromise and say that Gorrila Tactics is the sole OP thing about Darm and the ability itself should be banned but then some punk ass motherfucker will regurgitate the slippery slope "Level 80 Arceus should be unbanned" argument and so Zen Mode Darm too will die.

Landorus Unban
Landorus's wallbreaking capabilities aren't nearly as strong as they were in the past thanks to his shallow movepool, flimsiness, and beatable speed tier. After some brief discussion power will unban Landorus. He'll be hard pressed to find a spot in many tightly knit balance squads and that will be the end of it.

Pheromosa Unban
For the first time in forever, all is good. Every excruciating problem is taken care of: Dynamax is gone. Darm is gone. Things are nice. People believe that the presence of Aegislash and shit will make Pheromosa manageable. She is unbanned.

Pheromosa Re-Ban
Five hours later ppl will realize that they fucked up. Pheromosa easily breaks past Aegislash and Toxapex thanks to various coverage in Drill Run and Throat Chop. She is banned.

That's what I got so far.

I think trying to predict what’s going to happen in a meta that will be drastically different from the one we’re in now doesn’t really make sense, but I’ll try and give my opinions on them anyways.

1. Mega Metagross Suspect
While it’s almost inevitable that Mega Metagross will get even better with the Dynamax ban, I still think it’s a bit too early to call it broken. You kind of have to figure out what kind of Mega Metagross you’re facing while you’re fighting it, ‘cause it does suffer from 4MSS. Ice Punch and Meteor Mash are basically given (although I have seen some non-Meteor Mash sets that use Bullet Punch over it. It can work ig, but overall less consistent I’d say), the rest of the moves let’s you choose what you want to hit and what you get walled by. These slots will most of the time be Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Zen Headbutt or Bullet Punch. If Metagross doesn’t have Thunder Punch, have fun breaking through Slowbro. If you don’t have Hammer Arm, Ferrothorn beats you. No Earthquake means Aegislash walls you to hell and back. No Zen? Rotom-Wash says hi. No Bullet Punch makes stuff like Galarian Darmanitan, Weavile and Dugtrio more threatening. It’s true that figuring this out can be quite tricky, and can be a headache prepping for it in teambuilding. However, I do think sufficient counterplay exists, as we do have some good offensive countermeasure too. Scarf Blacephalon, Scarf Victini and (Ash) Greninja are good Pokémon that can outspeed and threaten the OHKO on Metagross. Some more niche stuff like Scarf Chandelure/Salazzle/Mega Houndoom also do work (thinking outside the box isn’t a bad idea sometimes). Trappers like Dugtrio and Scarf Magnezone can chip Mega Metagross down to a range where other Pokémon can pick it off more easily, such as Scarf Gengar and Landorus-T.
While it’s without a doubt the best Mega Evolution in the tier, I do think that at the moment enough counterplay exists, both defensively and offensively.

2. Darmanitan-Galar Suspect
I think this would actually be more likely than a Mega Metagross suspect (mostly because U-turn is a dumb move), but I’m still not sure of it. We have a ton more viable priority users in the tier (Water Shuriken Ash Greninja, Bullet Punch Mega Metagross, Fake Out/Bullet Punch Mega Medicham) that could stop it from going on too big of a rampage. I’ve generally been using standard defensive Rotom-Wash as my check, but U-turn still kinda messed with that. It’s tricky to find good defensive counterplay, as none basically exists, so I think in teambuilding you need at least two ‘mons that can outspeed and threaten the OHKO. Examples are the aforementioned BP Mega Metagross and Medicham, but options like Scarf Victini/Scarf Blacephalon/Sucker Punch Mega Mawile also do the job pretty well. I could see this requiring some tiering action in the future, but I’d prefer waiting a bit before any action is taken.

3. Landorus Unban
Yeah, I don’t think this is a good idea. Sure, SpDef Celesteela and Chansey can probably check it defensively (just wait ‘till they start running Gravity and Knock Off so Focus Miss 2HKO’s Chansey), and Weavile/Galarian Darmanitan could check it offensively (Rock Polish though lol), the amount of restraint it puts on teambuilding with already top tier threats like Genesect, Mega Metagross and Galarian Darmanitan is just not a good idea. It just lacks sufficient amount of counterplay, as every offensive check gets cucked by Rock Polish sets, while defensive counterplay basically doesn’t exist at all. Not going deeper on this, since most people will get what I mean.

4. Pheromosa Unban
Yeah, you figured it out. Number 5 says it all. Don’t unban it please.