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On a similar note, is teambuilding frustrating to anyone? I know I'm a fairly vocal person regarding my feelings for tier's state but it seems like the camp of people who believe that "something is wrong with the meta" is growing overtime. My personal take is that Waterpon's removal eases a lot of headaches in the builder but not everyone agrees with that, clearly people are the same way with Ghold. Roaring Moon is something that got somewhat underhyped and now has turned out to be significantly threatening. I could go on here but in total there are a lot of annoying breakers to account for.
Definetely. I thought it was just me being an idiot. A lot of times it feels like the only archtype u can build is offense, because anything more defensively than that just gets shut down by stuff like Gholdengo, Wogerpon and even Roaring Moon. The first two absolutely invalidate any defensive playstyle, making it difficult to build. My solution to Wogerpon is adding big to my teams, but its a difficult mon to fit on most teams. My solution to Gholdengo is praying my opponent does not have the coverage they need in order to take my check down
On a similar note, is teambuilding frustrating to anyone? I know I'm a fairly vocal person regarding my feelings for tier's state but it seems like the camp of people who believe that "something is wrong with the meta" is growing overtime. My personal take is that Waterpon's removal eases a lot of headaches in the builder but not everyone agrees with that, clearly people are the same way with Ghold. Roaring Moon is something that got somewhat underhyped and now has turned out to be significantly threatening. I could go on here but in total there are a lot of annoying breakers to account for.
Im definitely feeling the ghold is over centralizing vibe but not near as much on moon and definitely not on waterpon given its terrible winrate in tour recently, Just off the first 4 weeks of NDWC:
Giving a combined 7/26 or 27% win rate which is frankly terrible. I also don't feel teems are going too out of their way to prep for it, its just very easy to wear down between hazards and helmet right now along with the abundance of soft checks that are good into it.
With WC and Seasonals over, I wanted to drop some sets I've been using/passed friends and wanted to share. I don't really play SV much unless im helping someone or have an incentive to play it, but being ahead of the meta is still nessesary as a competitor.
For quality purposes, all of these below have been brought on the big stage at some point.(NDWC/Later rounds of seasonals) Unfortunately, not every set is shown use in replays, so as an alternative I'll post teams where said sets were used and if you have anything questions about game quality/replays you can dm me. Some stuff here is heat, some you've seen before. Regardless my takes aren't law and the goal here is to showcase sets. EVs are whatever use what you like, this is just what I had for said teams.
Weather ball is a nice tech on cinder paired with Glowking to make the grounds easier to deal with, especially garchomp.
4 SpA Cinderace Weather Ball (100 BP Ice) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Snow: 352-420 (83.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Cinderace Weather Ball (100 BP Ice) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp in Snow: 348-412 (97.4 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Cinderace Weather Ball (100 BP Ice) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian in Snow: 372-436 (97.3 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Cinderace Weather Ball (100 BP Ice) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk in Snow: 254-300 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Cinderace Weather Ball (100 BP Ice) vs. 244 HP / 228+ SpD Gliscor in Snow: 268-324 (76.1 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Pyro ball+Weather Ball smokes all these guys, and the cool thing is that your defense is now boosted when you're an ice type. This makes the court change interactions with things like tusk easier since you can Weather Ball and always live headlong.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Salt Cure
- Recover
- Protect
P standard, the first time ive seen this used in a tournament was here https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-836215 I think this thing is really fucking annoying into pex/steel/gliscor with rocks up. Cant status it either and unless you have something with magic guard not alot of things can mess around too much in the 1v1 without getting severely chipped.
Ogerpon-Wellspring (F) @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance/U turn
- Synthesis
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip/Play Rough
I see most people use sd 3 atks but recovery on this is really underrated. First of all with Synthesis, oger is one of the better great tusk pivots(lacking CC) since you're able to take headlong and ice spinner p well unless hazards are up. Second synth imporves your balance match up ALOT, since teams try to check it with toxic pex>switching around or chipping it slowly till it dies. Play rough over power whip if you wanna fuck up dnite balances although whip is better for pex.
Roaring moon is definitely one of the best breakers in the tier, and a mon you definitely have to immediately interact with once it hits the field. The value in pads for me is spreading knock/u turning out of checks like clef to bring other breakers in. Moon also outspeeds mega diancie, and having something that can always OHKO one of the best megas in the tiers always nice. Should be paired with Ogerpon or something else that benefits from ferro/clef/zap being knocked earlier.
Gholdengo @ Steelium Z
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 80 Spe Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Recover
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 378-445 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Moltres: 395-465 (102.8 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega: 305-359 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 432-508 (84 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Gholdengo Corkscrew Crash (190 BP) vs. 220 HP / 180 SpD Melmetal: 387-456 (83 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You get the point. Top 2 Z move users in the tier (idk if roaring moon in sun is better) and nukes almost everything with max invested modest. I see some people use alot of bulk or max speed Timid, which is OK too but I really like the power this set provides.
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
Metagame has turned into pex gliscor bs so fire types are slightly disrespected because pex/gliscor deals with most. Well pex cant toxic Heatran so unless you're knock/scald you get trapped. Gliscor runs near max spD and auto drops to magma+hp ice which breaks that entire core unless you got another sturdy fire resist.(not likely) Small side note about heatran is that its the best rocker into terapagos since they run flame>earth power 90% of the time, which means you should always keep them up if Heatran stays healthy.
This 1s a little OD lol but goes back to gliscor again. I was creeping someone elses gliscors but you can go higher. Shuts down tect+toxic if you get it in the 1v1. Tpulse is so that you dont drain your special attack making you forced out eventually. Best used on sun teams.
Ting-Lu @ Red Card
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 124 SpD / 128 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Ruination
Next couple of mons are gonna have taunt lol, the idea is that you can ruination vs clef and then if they rocks, taunt and if they attack you force it out. This makes way for other sweepers later, you can even creep corv if you're feeling saucy but some dont use -speed so not worth. Should mainly be used on HO but can be used on ither structures.
Like Heatran I think fire types are really disrespected and taunt shuts down mola/pex right away. If i were to ise this mon again id use a spread that lives diancies d storm but max speed modest is fine too.
Hydreigon @ Groundium Z
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Earth Power
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124 SpD Toxapex: 498-588 (164.3 - 194%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 687-809 (128.6 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you can get a sub up vs pex you're most likely getting at least 1 kill. One of the better breakers if utilized properly.
I think volcs good rn but not great, mainly cause of pex/dnite usage. HP ice eases the dnite/gliscor match ups and gives you a nice surprise factor into teams that think they can deal with it easily.
Pool of teams with sets, if you have any questions on how to use anything dm me on cord.
Thoughts on the tier atm:
Again whatever i say isnt law, but competitively I feel like the tier is 5/10 for me. I don't like the status quo that everything is ok and the tiers perfect, team building feels very restricted because of a few mons personally although at the same time I don't think anything is nessesarily very broken. Big 3 mons that make building annoying for me is roaring moon, Ogerpon, and ghold but I don't think any should be banned besides moon. Most people might feel differently although that's just my opinion.
Thoughts on team building:
Some people have asked me what helps me teambuild/come up with sets mainly for tours so just wanna list some things that I take into account:
1. Spectating
I only play 2 national dex tours a year, but I try to watch as many games as possible from later rounds of Individual tours/team tours. It helps to see what everyone else is using, especially the top players so that I know what's trendy atm. Doesn't have to be in great detail but just skimming through replays has helped me a fair bit.
2. Testing
If you're in the ND room on main alot, you have probably seen me come on and practically beg for sv games at least once or twice. Laddering helps me alot as well, but just playing people that are generally competent helps me plug any errors my team may have against the overall meta. Also gives me an idea on how to sequence certain scenarios against specific pokemon.
3. Run it by someone
Having someone to run your teams by is extremely underrated, because it gives you an opinion thats not your own and a perspective you maybe didnt think of when building. Reaching out to an approachable community members helps, even if they might not answer all the time. I usually run my teams over by one person whos takes on the meta I trust but he's retired. The ND discord is a great resource for that kind of thing and alot of respected community members talk there, so that would definitely help.
Wrote this on mobile so might have errors
Any questions on anything dm me @shalisza on discord
- Personally think this mon is borderline broken. Offensive Ghold sets have the most potential to be broken with the correct matchup (some of the bulkier sample teams don't have a z ghost ghold switch in). All three Z moves are viable and can be teched with modest to dismantle any fat, particularly Z steel. Despite bulky ghold being more consistent vs the entire meta, It's a nightmare in the builder when trying to build a defensive core vs offensive Ghold let alone the entire meta and its top 2 best mons in the tier if not top 1. Since no one, apart from a select few are running modest, it has popularised AV mola which can live +2 Z ghost and flip turn out or mirror coat. Wouldn't consider broken however since this set is not oppressive against offensive builds and worn down by hazards. Even against offense, due to its premier defensive typing, can probably still get off a nuke with z regardless. Paired with bulky ghold sets, this mon is incredibly versatile offensively and defensively, which is why I believe it is borderline broken.
- Intially voted unban due to roaring moon having many defensive answers ranging from, ting lu, gliscor, mola, defensive fairies, molt, ferro zamazenta, lando and great tusk to an extent (off the top of my head probably more). That being said I was quite new to the tier around moon suspect so did not really grasp the meta and how the meta is really restricting so even though moon might not be necessarily broken imo, it did not benefit the tier. What I did notice from using roaring moon, contrast to ghold, it completely blows up opposing offense with a singular DD, even against bulkier comps, you have to really manage your mons HP well to not allow this pult regen to sweep your team, similarly to KGB. Personally believe out of the big 3, it is the least restricting in the builder, there are enough defensive splashable options. Can see things get out of hand with taunt or sub but feel like this mon needs all the coverage it can get. Z sets are the biggest issue with brute forcing past defensive answers so would also consider it borderline broken under ghold.
- Similar to Ghold but more consistent against a variety of achetypes, very restricting in the builder but falls victim to hazards. Has a handful of switchins within the builder, usually have to pair a couple spashable mons together to deal with it decently well (mtios and ferro for example). Despite, the results based analysis from NDWC, I still believe it is the most unhealthy out of the 3, with it having consistently good matchups into both offensive and bulky builds.
Closing thoughts:
While nothing is personally outright busted imo, in combination with some other mons like lele,kgb,volc,zama building has become super restrictive and meta to be quite uncompetitive with it being mu fish galore.
Something has to be the scapegoat for the tier to improve competitively.
ORRR let's get to the root of the issue which is Z moves.
Open to my mind being changed as discussion develops.
This may seem like an unorthodox solution, but much like how Hidden Power is only available for mons playable in the first seven generations, which NatDex respected and was a very common sense decision, I believe Z-Moves should only be playable on mons from the first seven generations as it's unavailable in generations after that. Limiting which mons can use Z-Moves would curb the power of some pretty centralizing mons currently in NatDex, such as Roaring Moon and Gholdengo, which really should never have been able to use them in the first place, and make the tier less matchup-fishy by reducing the overall power level of the tier, leading to there being more room to check other important threats by freeing up teambuilding pressure. This would be a good second step to reducing the powerlevel of the tier (the first being banning Tera, which NatDex has already done), and then if Roaring Moon is still broken, you can ban that too.
This may seem like an unorthodox solution, but much like how Hidden Power is only available for mons playable in the first seven generations, which NatDex respected and was a very common sense decision, I believe Z-Moves should only be playable on mons from the first seven generations as it's unavailable in generations after that. Limiting which mons can use Z-Moves would curb the power of some pretty centralizing mons currently in NatDex, such as Roaring Moon and Gholdengo, which really should never have been able to use them in the first place, and make the tier less matchup-fishy by reducing the overall power level of the tier, leading to there being more room to check other important threats by freeing up teambuilding pressure. This would be a good second step to reducing the powerlevel of the tier (the first being banning Tera, which NatDex has already done), and then if Roaring Moon is still broken, you can ban that too.
This may seem like an unorthodox solution, but much like how Hidden Power is only available for mons playable in the first seven generations, which NatDex respected and was a very common sense decision, I believe Z-Moves should only be playable on mons from the first seven generations as it's unavailable in generations after that. Limiting which mons can use Z-Moves would curb the power of some pretty centralizing mons currently in NatDex, such as Roaring Moon and Gholdengo, which really should never have been able to use them in the first place, and make the tier less matchup-fishy by reducing the overall power level of the tier, leading to there being more room to check other important threats by freeing up teambuilding pressure. This would be a good second step to reducing the powerlevel of the tier (the first being banning Tera, which NatDex has already done), and then if Roaring Moon is still broken, you can ban that too.
sorry… what? Natdex didn’t “respect” anything by not allowing post gen7 mons to have HP. It’s literally a TM. Mons have to learn it to use it, and since it’s not available after gen7, nothing after can learn it. Comparing that to Z moves which are tied to held items, which by the rules of Natdex do exist and aren’t based on having to learn moves to use, anything can learn it. This is just a strange argument and I don’t understand the point behind it. Especially the “never should have been able to use them” bit. Says who?
Also to be clear, Z moves are not making the tier match up fishy. A small handful of abusers have been too powerful (Darkrai, Gouging, Pult, probably Roaring Moon) and had a negative effect on the tier, but the mechanic itself is not the issue overall.
game freak / nintendo said so when they designed and balanced and released the new pokemon knowing it would be literally impossible for them to use z moves. i enjoy playing this tier but to me, letting curent gen mons use z moves (especially with new moves) feels not so far off from making up our own mega evolutions and adding them to the tier, or for a less inflammatory example, giving hidden power to new mons. I recognize that it's hard to figure out where to draw the lines for natdex as it's all made up anyways but to me, that specific decision feels like it missed the intent of z moves being a removed generational mechanic.
Mons have to learn it to use it, and since it’s not available after gen7, nothing after can learn it. Comparing that to Z moves which are tied to held items, which by the rules of Natdex do exist and aren’t based on having to learn moves to use, anything can learn it
Don't you see how this is contradictory? New mons can't learn hidden power in the actual factual pokemon game, so they can't have it in natdex. Similarly, new mons cannot ever use a z move in game, because the item that gives them access to those moves was removed. But we let them in Natdex because they're tied to an item...which they can't use in-game? Saying "oh, by the rules of natdex it's ok, so end of discussion" is not a real argument, those rules are made up! they can change!
game freak / nintendo said so when they designed and balanced and released the new pokemon knowing it would be literally impossible for them to use z moves.
Z Moves are an item, therefore they are allowed as National Dex applies to items too(from my understanding). While yes they never could use a z move, they can hold an item and Z Moves are an allowed item. Banning Z Moves for all mons not in the Gen 7 National Dex wouldn’t unban many mons too. Only obvious one is Pult. Even something like Gouging Fire would probably be too much for the tier. Mean while you’re nerfing perfectly fine mons like Ghold, and Raging Bolt.
It most definitely is. By that logic we could make literally any change. Why not ban all gen 9 mons? The majority of them are incredibly good, better on average than Gens 8 and 9 mons are with Z Moves.
My personal attitude towards the matter is not really a power level concern, but rather a conflict with what I understand the goal of National Dex to be and how the (generally great!) rules the tier leaders came up to make this playable lead to a result that feels counterintuitive (to me at least!) and could maybe be improved in this case. The idea that an item tied to a generational mechanic could be tiered differently than a "standard" held item does not seem outrageous to me in principle.
But let's take a step back and ignore whether the suggestion about not letting post gen 7 mons use z-moves has merit
Someone suggested a change to the rules of a tier. The response they got was, "no, that's not what the rules of the tier are". I feel like this is not a helpful response! They know what the rule is, that's why they're suggesting something be changed...
My personal attitude towards the matter is not really a power level concern, but rather a conflict with what I understand the goal of National Dex to be and how the (generally great!) rules the tier leaders came up to make this playable lead to a result that feels counterintuitive (to me at least!) and could maybe be improved in this case. The idea that an item tied to a generational mechanic could be tiered differently than a "standard" held item does not seem outrageous to me in principle.
But let's take a step back and ignore whether the suggestion about not letting post gen 7 mons use z-moves has merit
Someone suggested a change to the rules of a tier. The response they got was, "no, that's not what the rules of the tier are". I feel like this is not a helpful response! They know what the rule is, that's why they're suggesting something be changed...
These rules were defined over multiple Policy Review threads in a saga that lasted well over a year. It was a whole can of worms in of itself and the tier leadership will not seriously consider rocking the boat like this after a definition was reached that Smogon Staff and tier leadership is happy with. Complex bans like certain Pokemon not being able to hold items also goes against general Smogon practices, so this request would not only change the rules of the tier but go against precedent that Smogon has held to for many years. As a result, such a suggestion will not and never will be seriously considered, especially since most of the playerbase is fine with how Z moves are currently implemented and the effect they have on the meta.
These rules were defined over multiple Policy Review threads in a saga that lasted well over a year. It was a whole can of worms in of itself and the tier leadership will not seriously consider rocking the boat like this after a definition was reached that Smogon Staff and tier leadership is happy with. Complex bans like certain Pokemon not being able to hold items also goes against general Smogon practices, so this request would not only change the rules of the tier but go against precedent that Smogon has held to for many years. As a result, such a suggestion will not and never will be seriously considered, especially since most of the playerbase is fine with how Z moves are currently implemented and the effect they have on the meta.
I wouldnt say many people are fine with z move. Many mons have been banned because they get a nuke as a move. Look at deo s pult gouging. All of these are mon good but z move sent them to broken. Not to mention, alot of mon use z move to be on the bounderline broken like ghold
I wouldnt say many people are fine with z move. Many mons have been banned because they get a nuke as a move. Look at deo s pult gouging. All of these are mon good but z move sent them to broken. Not to mention, alot of mon use z move to be on the bounderline broken like ghold
While it is true that certain Pokemon become too much to handle primarily because of Z moves (although we really do need to retest Deo-S at some point), I don't think it would be correct to argue that Z moves are a metagame warping mechanic anywhere close to the point of Tera or Dynamax. Tiering action against certain broken Z users has led to a balanced meta that Z moves comfortably exist in, as showcased by Gen 8 Natdex, which I would argue doesn't really have any broken Z move abusers at this point in time. Even in Generation 9, we currently only have two legal Pokemon that are arguably too much due to their abuse of Z moves, those being Roaring Moon and Gholdengo. No other Z move user is anywhere close to the level that those two are at. There are Pokemon that become broken when Z moves are in the meta, to be sure, but you can say the same with many other generational mechanics. I don't think certain Pokemon being banned because of a certain mechanic being legal in a metagame is necessarily a bad thing, especially since it has been proven that balanced and competitive metagames can exist with said mechanic legal once these problematic Pokemon are taken care of. It would be different if there were like 10 currently broken Z move abusers, but there aren't, and it's a very reasonable task for the council to take action versus the currently questionable Z move users and then leave us with a balanced meta that still has Z moves as a core mechanic.
Here is the invite link to the discord server https://discord.gg/d22CfXtm
You can go in the RMT channel and share the paste there to get propper feedback
to my teams, but its a difficult mon to fit on most teams. My solution to Gholdengo is praying my opponent does not have the coverage they need in order to take my check down 
(Paired with 
or 
)
