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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Nashrock
- Start date
Hmm... well, lets see if what you say its true or not. I remember that I once made a "counter checks list" for the mons that returned after the tera ban with 
here being one of them. The list is the follwing on this paste: https://pokepast.es/ee0266772f7c2a11 .
Note that
wasn't a thing back then, in fact it's only started to catch on recently. Now I will admit that some of these arent as good as what they seemed as amswers to Gholdengo (looking at you, AV Ttar) but I do agree that some of these are still good into it.
is arguably the best spinner in the tier, in large part cause it 1v1s Gholdengo like nobody's business. Between Tera Shell, speed and coverage, it can either force the Gholdengo out, allowing the pagos a free spin, or Gholdengo likely loses the 1v1, of which pagos can then spin later.
while nowhere near as good as pagos at sponging its hits, it can take at least one with proper invesment, and then proceed to kill it afterwards or defog its hazards away.
while definetly needs to be careful of Focus Blast, it can easily put Gholdengo into a 50/50 that can end badly for the Gholdengo user, tho there is also the 50/50 that it gets Focus Blasted into the moon (assuming Gholdengo has good aim).
And while most of these are rather flawed, with the right plays they can get the job done. In general, Gholdengo while good, it simply isn't as oppressive as you make it out to be. Its lower speed is something that can be prayed upon, and while potentially dangerous to switch into, it isnt any different from other special attackers in the tier. Hell, I have more problems with
and you don't see claiming for a ban. If you play a good team and make good plays, Gholdengo shouldn't be THAT big of an issue. In other words i'm not british ...
here being one of them. The list is the follwing on this paste: https://pokepast.es/ee0266772f7c2a11 .Note that
wasn't a thing back then, in fact it's only started to catch on recently. Now I will admit that some of these arent as good as what they seemed as amswers to Gholdengo (looking at you, AV Ttar) but I do agree that some of these are still good into it. is arguably the best spinner in the tier, in large part cause it 1v1s Gholdengo like nobody's business. Between Tera Shell, speed and coverage, it can either force the Gholdengo out, allowing the pagos a free spin, or Gholdengo likely loses the 1v1, of which pagos can then spin later. while nowhere near as good as pagos at sponging its hits, it can take at least one with proper invesment, and then proceed to kill it afterwards or defog its hazards away. while definetly needs to be careful of Focus Blast, it can easily put Gholdengo into a 50/50 that can end badly for the Gholdengo user, tho there is also the 50/50 that it gets Focus Blasted into the moon (assuming Gholdengo has good aim).And while most of these are rather flawed, with the right plays they can get the job done. In general, Gholdengo while good, it simply isn't as oppressive as you make it out to be. Its lower speed is something that can be prayed upon, and while potentially dangerous to switch into, it isnt any different from other special attackers in the tier. Hell, I have more problems with
and you don't see claiming for a ban. If you play a good team and make good plays, Gholdengo shouldn't be THAT big of an issue. In other words i'm not british ...
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note that the
player can switch out of these into probably 
and it can kill each of them with at least 2 button clicksand
can be beaten by other partners and knock users + hazards (which are common on gholdengo hazard stack teams where the problematic sets originatekeep in mind the 50/50 can also very well end badly for the
user, and if it does then there goes your gholdengo checkand also saying someone has a skill issue just because you can't quite see that a mon is problematic for the tier is incredibly disrespectful and rude
Ok, I will apologize for the "skill issue" part, I was simply joking on that last part. Plus, inb knows me, so it should be fine, I hope. I'm not saying that Gholdengo isn't problematic, In fact, I have struggled a few times against it. But I just don't think it is quite banworthy, at least not yet. Could it prove to be problematic in the future? Maybe, but for now, I do think it's fine, as it does have decent counterplay, even if it can admittingly be somewhat hard to switch into. Are we cool i'm not british ?
Hmm... well, lets see if what you say its true or not. I remember that I once made a "counter checks list" for the mons that returned after the tera ban with
Note that
And while most of these are rather flawed, with the right plays they can get the job done. In general, Gholdengo while good, it simply isn't as oppressive as you make it out to be. Its lower speed is something that can be prayed upon, and while potentially dangerous to switch into, it isnt any different from other special attackers in the tier. Hell, I have more problems with
View attachment 739809
Ofc we cool, unlike some players i actualy am close w u
As Chilli Dewd already said Ghold has many more checks then just AV Mola. Another point I feel needs to be added is Ghold’s weakness to hazards. Ghold is most frequently run on hazard stack meaning it more often then not wants to keep hazards up, however Ghold does not deal with hazards well once spikes are thrown into the mix. This means often times the Ghold player is forced to recover which allows the opponent to gain momentum by switching into a check, or something that offensively pressures Ghold. Ghold is very good but most definitely not ban worthy.
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https://pokepast.es/ee0266772f7c2a11Hmm... well, lets see if what you say its true or not. I remember that I once made a "counter checks list" for the mons that returned after the tera ban with
Note that
And while most of these are rather flawed, with the right plays they can get the job done. In general, Gholdengo while good, it simply isn't as oppressive as you make it out to be. Its lower speed is something that can be prayed upon, and while potentially dangerous to switch into, it isnt any different from other special attackers in the tier. Hell, I have more problems with
View attachment 739809
Kgb dies to +2 steel z
Ting dies to fightz / steelz
Clod dies to knock + hazzards or if dengo gets a snipe mir
Molt dies to ghost z
Bliss dies to pshock / steel z. (R u fr running fireblast bliss ._.)
Mandibuzz dies to steel z
Av ttar and mtar dies to steel z
While this is indeed true, not every team can afford to run hazzards (hstack, mb for the miss info). And a good ghold player should be able to position themselfs so dengo gets a free turn. This can be done so by using momentum or just doing a double
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Also main reason i'm doing this is cuz every team i build is forced to run av alo for ghold. Cuz of that ppl starting to cteam me.
Yes this is just cope lmaooo
Yes this is just cope lmaooo
Ok gonna drop some thoughts on this Ghold debate.
Mr Cheese String
So obviously ghold has limited mons that answer all 3 z moves sure, thats to be expected. However, different mons switch in on different sets, so its checks aren't going to be black and white on preview. Also Gholdengo obviously cant slot all of its coverage at once, often wanting to run recover over a 3rd attack on non hyper offense structures. Fight Z Ghold wont have make it rain, and Ghost Z will also drop Make it Rain and Steel Z will drop Focus Blast. As already mentioned, Ghold struggles with hazards as most often it wont be running boots, as that would involve dropping its Z move, which is basically its whole ban argument. This allows Ghold to struggle to switch in more, making it harder to find set-up opportunities and get into its threatening state, AKA +2 in on something passive / something it can just nuke. Relatively low speed also makes it pretty easy to revenge kill, especially after hazards, as it is threatened by some of the tiers best mons.
There is some merit to a Ghold suspect though, largely being that, in theory it can practically invalidate and autowin into fatter structures. Often this does not come into fruition, but it can still be very constricting on the building of certain archetypes. It also CAN lead to some difficult guessing games on what set its going to run, and while you can most likely tell based on the structure, if it does get into a position where its +2 it can trade with 1 or 2 mons pretty easily.
Anyway, to conclude, I wouldn't mind a Gholdengo suspect, and I'd be interested to listen to more pro-ban arguments, but as of right now I feel that Gholdengo is largely manageable for the tier. Peace
Mr Cheese String
So obviously ghold has limited mons that answer all 3 z moves sure, thats to be expected. However, different mons switch in on different sets, so its checks aren't going to be black and white on preview. Also Gholdengo obviously cant slot all of its coverage at once, often wanting to run recover over a 3rd attack on non hyper offense structures. Fight Z Ghold wont have make it rain, and Ghost Z will also drop Make it Rain and Steel Z will drop Focus Blast. As already mentioned, Ghold struggles with hazards as most often it wont be running boots, as that would involve dropping its Z move, which is basically its whole ban argument. This allows Ghold to struggle to switch in more, making it harder to find set-up opportunities and get into its threatening state, AKA +2 in on something passive / something it can just nuke. Relatively low speed also makes it pretty easy to revenge kill, especially after hazards, as it is threatened by some of the tiers best mons.
There is some merit to a Ghold suspect though, largely being that, in theory it can practically invalidate and autowin into fatter structures. Often this does not come into fruition, but it can still be very constricting on the building of certain archetypes. It also CAN lead to some difficult guessing games on what set its going to run, and while you can most likely tell based on the structure, if it does get into a position where its +2 it can trade with 1 or 2 mons pretty easily.
This is all largely hypothetical, and saying that Ghold checks can be beaten by teammates isn't really that good of an argument, as that applies to nearly all good offensive Pokemon. For example, its along the lines of saying "Zamazenta is broken because Landorus-T can come kill Toxapex", in my opinion.note that the
and
keep in mind the 50/50 can also very well end badly for the
Anyway, to conclude, I wouldn't mind a Gholdengo suspect, and I'd be interested to listen to more pro-ban arguments, but as of right now I feel that Gholdengo is largely manageable for the tier. Peace
Yeah nah, it's not even the best mon (or even the most banworthy)
bro av mola is completely unviable, idk what you are on about. Just run pagos and stop ghold in its tracks right there.
Assault Vest Alomomola has been getting a fairly solid showing in NatDex WC, done well by Team Asia + Oceania's crew of players
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-840415
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2351849087-dsv3w6a9iuoh8akqxpgjeyweth4u8bspw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-836694
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-835426
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-833752?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-833177
Separate point but "Just run X to check Y" is not as simplistic as you are making it out to be. When one is forced to be put in reactive situations and is pigeonholed into specific mons, checks to that broken mon can and will get abused as they are sole way to stop that broken from running away with the game. That is not necessarily a healthy aspect. Whether that applies to Gholdengo I give no comment on.
On a similar note, is teambuilding frustrating to anyone? I know I'm a fairly vocal person regarding my feelings for tier's state but it seems like the camp of people who believe that "something is wrong with the meta" is growing overtime. My personal take is that Waterpon's removal eases a lot of headaches in the builder but not everyone agrees with that, clearly people are the same way with Ghold. Roaring Moon is something that got somewhat underhyped and now has turned out to be significantly threatening. I could go on here but in total there are a lot of annoying breakers to account for.
"not every team can afford to run hazards" should set off every scrub alarm known to man we are truly entertaining code red scrubtalks if we think hazards are too much of an ask. this logic could be used to make quite literally every pokemon known to man broken. "if a mon has no hazards up and uses momentum the free turns are really strong!" this is absolute fucking chungus thought process lets please wake up before we just spout anything
think building is extremely frustrating for the tier but not really as a result of waterpon/ghold. I think that gliscor and dengo are extremely annoying in terms of how well they make progress, and as such people tend to run teams (namely mdia rmoon giga slopfests) that can more efficiently beat those hstack type of squads, and those HO builds tend to either fish or get fished and its extremely frustrating to play against. the cheese factor has risen with the increase in screens and rmoon volc shit so the dichotomy between play the gliscor hstack game (kind of enjoyable to build vs and play against, at least in comparison) or try to avoid getting rmoon volc fished (extremely annoying and often very flippy feeling) leads to ND feeling like almost two seperate tiers. but those moon HOs arent necessarily hopeless vs the glisc builds- they in fact have some of the best matchups if the clefable ever manages to be neutralized. i've noticed a lot of games i've played in friendlies and watched in tours be very matchup dependent and its a bit maddening especially with how many otherwise cool or at least powerful mons tend to get bricked if they roll an unlucky matchup (tran, cm lele, rbolt fartana etc)
as I get more involved in actual higher level stuff the more i've realized that moon desperately needs to go this shit really just gets to do wayyy too fucking much on so many squads its a bit unbelievable. probable slopcat 8 paragraph larpfest soon but kinda wanted to get this out there especially since the scrubtalks have been a bit absurd as of late
Most any team should be running hazards. There are very few exceptions which aren’t.
Strange amount of claims here that just aren’t true. Like arguing that MIR is rare (it’s the 5th most common move used by Ghold at high ladder) that you shouldn’t prep for it, or that Steelium Z is unviable or that it aucks, when it’s the 3rd most common item at high ladder at least. It’s a set you must respect, even if it was on the rarer side, because it literally OHKOs almost any resist at +2. Now I don’t completely Ghold is broken (I have some feelings on the Mon) but you’re just not making substantiated claims.
Also AV Mola is very legitimate lol. It’s been brought in tournaments both here and in SVOU and it’s a solid set.
There’s definitely some issues that feel more glaring now as things become more optimized.
For me, I still strongly feel that Wellspring is the biggest negative element in the tier. Outside some fat grasses that are not easy to slot in, Zamazenta or Dragonite/Mega Latios, defensive counter play doesn’t feel there. Most teams have to rely on trying to revenge it or out offense it, but post Pult this feels a lot harder because the options are fewer on that regard too. I think it puts an unreasonable restriction on team building and its removal would do a lot of good (I know some people will say “but Mola becomes uber annoying without Wellspring to punish it”, but there are more ways to deal with Mola teams and removing Wellspring also allows for other anti Mola tech to be explored).
Gholdengo I said my bit on I don’t think it’s there (yet), but Roaring Moon has felt pretty insane lately. I think it’s less that it’s capable of sweeping teams because most times it wont, but rather that it feels a bit like Gouging did as a breaker in how it punches big holes for its team to exploit, and the added speed gives it value into offense. It’s hard to wall completely, and I find there are many times it gets 1-1.5 kills minimum and usually leaves big damage on important Pokémon which are needed to check a lot of stuff. It’s also very versatile and while the sets can be telegraphed and gleamed with player skill, its natural high damage still doesn’t make positioning around it easy.
for me reached that point the moment the bulky ghostium z shadow ball set skyrocketed in popularity, however i agree with this take on 
, i was only around to watch in SVOU during the 
era and i definitely can draw connections to that and moon originally my take on wellspring was that it wasn't that broken, mostly because i was fighting it using offensive teams, but seeing as how in my personal experience the best wall for it is
(which is a strong mon in and of itself but hard to fit on a team bar stall) i've definitely come to terms with it being really unhealthy with the tier leaning more towards either ho or ghold hazard stack it's becoming a lot harder to be creative in the builder rather than just do what everyone else is doing, and i personally struggle using hazard stack/semistall structures (though i am definitely trying to learn) and trying to account for both sides of the spectrum at the same time while also making sure your team doesn't get steamrolled is difficult, so yes i would say it's frustrating
that is all for now
Not too frustrating. Granted this is a meta that heavily favors my preferred playstyles of hazard stack and offense.
I do agree Wellspring needs to go. I’ve been pretty vocal on it. It absolutely tears through defensive teams and even Pex can’t guaranteed check it due to SD Power whip doing like 80%(from my memory). Only point against a ban is how it is crazy hazard weak in a meta with lots of hazards, but just run wish mola, or a defogger/spinner that can beat ghold. Or bring your wellspring in a bit more conservatively.
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E: message I replied to was deleted
I don't understand why lead sets are not mentioned. Deo-S will make the HO fishing issue considerably worse for what it's worth. As slopcat pointed out Moon + Volcarona is already incredibly frustrating to queue into on team preview and now you want to drop a mon that beats nearly every opposing setter and most of the removal, all while being capable of either layering hazards, wiping a mon off the map with life orb variants, or both.
I don't understand why lead sets are not mentioned. Deo-S will make the HO fishing issue considerably worse for what it's worth. As slopcat pointed out Moon + Volcarona is already incredibly frustrating to queue into on team preview and now you want to drop a mon that beats nearly every opposing setter and most of the removal, all while being capable of either layering hazards, wiping a mon off the map with life orb variants, or both.
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Competely forgot about lead sets. They do look unhealthy
the thing about- This mon is clearly broken. Dark Z and Fight Z sets are extremely dangerous due to its great offensive stats and coverage. Z Hypnosis is not broken but it's complete cheese that the tier is better without. Outside Z sets, specs is difficult to switch into. Keep this mon in ubers.
is that i would REALLY like if it was balanced for the tier, i love using 4a sets or 3a taunt setsunfortunately we can never have nice things because some 1100s timmy will load up z hypno and cheese his way to the 1800s
tldr i wanna use the cool mon gamefreak please consider adding about 25 stat points in spdef for
so i can use the cool mondude i cant even make a joke argument about rai being balanced because of how utterly unbalanced it is i just wanna use the cool nightmare creature 
Well..
+2 steel z ohkoes terap at full (and gambit). Also i've seen people mentioning pex as a wall but pex just gets shadow ball spammed until a spd drop. Or the dengo player np's on the recover.
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Oh absolutely. Building fatter structures such as balance leaning towards fat (which is my main playstyle) has been an absolute headache. It's impossible to both stop offensive threats and be able to run them yourselves. Particularly gholdengo, the only real way to deal w gholdengo is to out offense it (or run av alo). Besides that, the mons that are able to rkill dengo struggles to enter because they fear a snipe (alr stated in prev posts)
Also i'd like to add that (imo) rmoon, rona, ghold, rona should all be banned. The boosted dd moon set is hoorendusly difficult to wall. I've also been seeing some groundium rmoon's running arround, meaning that fini, clef won't be able to wall.
Rona should be banned because.. well hard asf to wall, the hdb quiver set is alr hard enough to deal with. Give it subswarm and basically nothing can wall it (yes even the blobs). Although hazzards r a massive problem, let's be honesy any team that can afford to run subswarm will have a good hazzard removal option
Wogerpon because... u all alr know
Ghold.. i alr explained ._. (Makes building defensive structures very difficult)
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