Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

So are we repeating the same test three months later?
The reason a retest is even on the table is because the original test was extremely close and actually received a majority pro-ban votes, just barely missing out on the necessary supermajority for tiering action. The latest player survey and the recently opened thread about terra are proof that the community's opinion on the matter has remained largely similar, if anything it has swayed even further in favor of pro-ban. It's completely unreasonable to expect there to be a complete 180 in the general perception of terra, which is the only way unbanning it would be a reasonable option.

Because it's a 40%-60% matter, some people may regret
Currently the matter is more akin to a 20-80 split in favor of banning. The only scenario where ban voters' regret would matter is if a significant majority of players' perception of terra shifts, thus warranting it to be suspected down.

Then, mons like Eleki, Melm, Shedinja or Roaring Moon should be unbanned without Tera
Nobody is arguing that Eleki, Melm or Shed are even remotely broken without terra, given that they existed and were perfectly healthy in a metagame without terra, and would in all likelihood be unbanned as soon as terra goes. Roaring Moon is a different case as it was only legal for a few days and has never been part of a meta without terra, so the argument that it's brokenness is directly tied to terra and saying that is should be unbanned just because terra is gone is nonsensical.

and banned again if we change our mind
yes if a mon is broken it gets banned
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
The reason a retest is even on the table is because the original test was extremely close and actually received a majority pro-ban votes, just barely missing out on the necessary supermajority for tiering action. The latest player survey and the recently opened thread about terra are proof that the community's opinion on the matter has remained largely similar, if anything it has swayed even further in favor of pro-ban. It's completely unreasonable to expect there to be a complete 180 in the general perception of terra, which is the only way unbanning it would be a reasonable option.


Currently the matter is more akin to a 20-80 split in favor of banning. The only scenario where ban voters' regret would matter is if a significant majority of players' perception of terra shifts, thus warranting it to be suspected down.


Nobody is arguing that Eleki, Melm or Shed are even remotely broken without terra, given that they existed and were perfectly healthy in a metagame without terra, and would in all likelihood be unbanned as soon as terra goes. Roaring Moon is a different case as it was only legal for a few days and has never been part of a meta without terra, so the argument that it's brokenness is directly tied to terra and saying that is should be unbanned just because terra is gone is nonsensical.


yes if a mon is broken it gets banned
Yeah but not all mons are broken with tera. When you think about it, it's just 5 or 6 mons who are maybe banworthy with tera. So if you banned them before the tera. It's possible that the number of proban dicrease.
Also there was a majority of pro-ban back when magearna,chien pao,espathra and melmetal were allowed.
 
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When you think about it, it's just 5 or 6 mons who are maybe banworthy with tera
Ok let's say this goes though, and the top 6 terra abusers get banned, there is no guarantee that the next 6 won't be similarly broken. Also it's not just 6 mons, you can make a very convincing case for Dragapult, Kingambit, Zamazenta, Annihilape, Iron Valiant, Tapu Lele, Dragonite, Garganacl, Urshifu, Weavile, Volcarona, Barraskewda, Kartana, Floatzel and Walking Wake being broken, with the main factor behind that being terra. Banning literally half of the tier instead of banning a single mechanic is frankly just stupid.

So if you banned them before the tera. It's possible that the number of proban dicrease
Again, this would be a ban wave of an unprecedented scale, and there is still a possibility that otherwise mediocre or downright bad pokemon like Kingdra, Greninja and Blacephalon would just largely replace the current mons, still necessitating a ban on terra, and then a retest for all of the pokemon that would have been banned, leaving the tier in a more unstable and uncertain position than it is now.
 

Sulo

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In regards to the current discussion:
banning all the tera abusers just completely ignores the root issue at hand. if you are banning multiple pokemon because of x mechanic/move/ability etc, you're just missing out on the big picture.
I've said this before and, to reiterate, banning the abusers of Terastallization does absolutely nothing for the metagame when you are clearly missing out on the root issue of why said abusers are being banned. This isn't how we preserve "fun" or "competitiveness"; it isn't just for the sake of keeping around a blatantly unfun generational mechanic, but to create a solid competitive environment where Terastallization sweepers and wallbreakers don't cheese past teams at every corner. As the above post states, it would take a LOT more than just five or six bans to balance the metagame, because people can just look at the next best thing down and we're suddenly at odds with our own awful tiering decisions. There's no need to keep the mechanic around if it is obviously the reason you would go through with such large hypothetical ban waves in the first place.
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
Ok let's say this goes though, and the top 6 terra abusers get banned, there is no guarantee that the next 6 won't be similarly broken. Also it's not just 6 mons, you can make a very convincing case for Dragapult, Kingambit, Zamazenta, Annihilape, Iron Valiant, Tapu Lele, Dragonite, Garganacl, Urshifu, Weavile, Volcarona, Barraskewda, Kartana, Floatzel and Walking Wake being broken, with the main factor behind that being terra. Banning literally half of the tier instead of banning a single mechanic is frankly just stupid.


Again, this would be a ban wave of an unprecedented scale, and there is still a possibility that otherwise mediocre or downright bad pokemon like Kingdra, Greninja and Blacephalon would just largely replace the current mons, still necessitating a ban on terra, and then a retest for all of the pokemon that would have been banned, leaving the tier in a more unstable and uncertain position than it is now.
ok let's say that all mons you gave are indeed broken (because i don't agree with all of them),i just thought of another solution that i post on the tera, let's do a tera restriction instead of banning all of them that is to say,you can't tera those mons and you let weaker mons shine in OU with tera
 
A few things I think are worth addressing here.

You have to prove that tera (let's say we ban all the mon that you don't like with tera despite their brokeness controversy in my opinion) makes the tier less fun than the tier without ban but without tera.
This isn't the case at all, but I've seen this argument (or others very similar to this) come up quite a bit in regards to Tera. Whether or not the tier is more fun or not with or without Tera is ultimately NOT a reason to go about banning or unbanning Tera. Fun is ultimately subjective, and it can vary drastically and somewhat arbitrarily from player to player. I feel this has been repeated numerous times now in Tera discussions but it should be brought up yet again I suppose. Proving that something is more or less "Fun" to argue ban or no ban is a waste of everyone's time and doesn't add anything productive to the discussion.


Tera is not like dyna which make every mon even nu tier like pokemon busted.
This one has come up less but I've still seen it a few times in Tera discussions and its worth addressing as well. Comparing Tera & Dyna is pretty pointless because those are two significantly different mechanics. I'm not entirely sure where the idea came from that a mechanic has to be on the level of Dyna in order to warrant a ban, but that is definitely absurd. Dyna is far beyond the threshold of what should be banned, it isn't at the threshold.

When you think about it, it's just 5 or 6 mons who are maybe banworthy with tera.
This is a naïve viewpoint. Each and every day new innovations are being made with Tera, sometimes on mons that were not even on the Viability Rankings. Adem mentioned a few previously such as Latios. If you haven't already I encourage you to try out these sets for yourself. Point being, there are more mons being discovered every day that push Tera to the limits of competitive Pokemon.

let's do a tera restriction instead of banning all of them that is to say, you can't tera those mons and you let weaker mons shine in OU with tera
Finally, to this last point, I think Sulo gave some very valid reasonings but I'd also like to add that approaches like this do not work because as I stated just above, more and more Tera abusers are discovered each and every day. With the World Cup coming up where very capable builders are notorious for coming up with new innovations to support there team, there will no doubt be even more Tera shenanigans that are not on anyones radar yet.


with that being said I'm sure anyone can plainly recognize my personal views on this issue, but I believe Tera is ultimately an uncompetitive mechanic that is holding what could be an excellent tier hostage. I sincerely hope that it will be suspected as soon as the opportunity presents itself so it can be banned.

this post was not spell-checked or grammar-checked so excuse any errors :)
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
"This one has come up less but I've still seen it a few times in Tera discussions and its worth addressing as well. Comparing Tera & Dyna is pretty pointless because those are two significantly different mechanics. I'm not entirely sure where the idea came from that a mechanic has to be on the level of Dyna in order to warrant a ban, but that is definitely absurd. Dyna is far beyond the threshold of what should be banned, it isn't at the threshold." What i meant by that is tera makes all pokemon absolutely broken whereas tera make not all pokemon very broken in my opinion.

"I'm not entirely sure how much time you've spent in the tier but it is absolutely worth noting that this is a naïve viewpoint. Each and every day new innovations are being made with Tera on mons that were not even on the Viability Rankings. Adem mentioned a few previously such as Latios. If you haven't already I encourage you to try out these sets for yourself. Point being, there are more mons being discovered every day that push Tera to the limits of competitive Pokemon." Honestly not, in general those are not that good because kingambit's sucker punch makes a lot of those more difficult to use, which was at the beginning the subject i wanted to talk about. However, i do think you have a point as there are some great potential completly underrated like stakataka who i used a lot and who is complete beast with tera steel gyroball despite being rarely seen.

I did roughly three hundred battle in this metagame so i thing my opinion is not totally baseless
Capture d'écran 2023-03-22 224830.png
 
ok let's say that all mons you gave are indeed broken (because i don't agree with all of them),i just thought of another solution that i post on the tera, let's do a tera restriction instead of banning all of them that is to say,you can't tera those mons and you let weaker mons shine in OU with tera
Thing is, at least in my oppinion there isn't a single restriction that could keep terra in the tier and create a healthier metagame, and I believe this to be the common perception, otherwise this hypothetical restriction would have already been proposed and have gained at least some traction
 
Currently the matter is more akin to a 20-80 split in favor of banning.
As I said before, people who like Tera are not expressing their opinion, so you can have a distorted perception. I myself didn't go for reqs in the previous test, but would vote unban if it's repeated in the near future. If we let the tier stabilize with the tiering actions needed, and then, with a totally functional tier, we repeat the suspect test, I may change my opinion.

Ok let's say this goes though, and the top 6 terra abusers get banned, there is no guarantee that the next 6 won't be similarly broken. Also it's not just 6 mons, you can make a very convincing case for Dragapult, Kingambit, Zamazenta, Annihilape, Iron Valiant, Tapu Lele, Dragonite, Garganacl, Urshifu, Weavile, Volcarona, Barraskewda, Kartana, Floatzel and Walking Wake being broken, with the main factor behind that being terra. Banning literally half of the tier instead of banning a single mechanic is frankly just stupid.
First of all, not all those mons are broken. Second, that argument works without Tera: there will always be a S rank mon, and if you ban it, another one will replace it. With the new defensive mons added, the next mons to reach the offensive top may have no power enough to break through defenses.

This isn't the case at all, but I've seen this argument (or others very similar to this) come up quite a bit in regards to Tera. Whether or not the tier is more fun or not with or without Tera is ultimately NOT a reason to go about banning or unbanning Tera. Fun is ultimately subjective, and it can vary drastically and somewhat arbitrarily from player to player. I feel this has been repeated numerous times now in Tera discussions but it should be brought up yet again I suppose. Proving that something is more or less "Fun" to argue ban or no ban is a waste of everyone's time and doesn't add anything productive to the discussion.
Your vision about what is "competitive" is also subjective, so...

This one has come up less but I've still seen it a few times in Tera discussions and its worth addressing as well. Comparing Tera & Dyna is pretty pointless because those are two significantly different mechanics. I'm not entirely sure where the idea came from that a mechanic has to be on the level of Dyna in order to warrant a ban, but that is definitely absurd. Dyna is far beyond the threshold of what should be banned, it isn't at the threshold.
Well, if we look at VR we will find S rank Dragapult (being Ghostium Z the most common set in all ranges, according to usage stats) and A+ rank Lopunny-Mega. Two of the most powerful mons right now can't even terastalize. I think that's self-explanatory of how "broken" the mechanic is by itself.


However, i do think you have a point as there are some great potential completly underrated like stakataka who i used a lot and who is complete beast with tera steel gyroball despite being rarely seen.
I agree with you. Stakataka is an absolute beast. I use it very often in Trick Room teams and it's a destroyer. I think that's the point: being able to success building creative teams should be something celebrated instead of punished.


To give a conclusion, trying to boycott the development of the tier to force the people to retest Tera seems ungentlemanly to me. That's not how democracy works. People voted and we have to respect that choice. If we are going to re-evaluate that decision in the future (which I am not opposed to), at least be fair and let the current tier develop to judge honestly.
 
Well, if we look at VR we will find S rank Dragapult (being Ghostium Z the most common set in all ranges, according to usage stats) and A+ rank Lopunny-Mega. Two of the most powerful mons right now can't even terastalize. I think that's self-explanatory of how "broken" the mechanic is by itself.
not only is this some particularly egregious cherry-picking (these are two out of the seven pokemon in A+ & S) but tera dragon specs pult is probably the best pult set right now, and an absolute monster at that. Out of the rest of the 7:

Tornadus only occasionally uses tera
gholdengo will every once in a while flip a matchup upside down with tera flying or fighting, or just do absurd things with STAB tera
heatran loves tera grass
kambit goes from "the mega mawile at home" to an absurd wallbreaker, or just taking free kills with tera flying
tera fighting band zama kills basically everything, while tera water/fairy/steel/whatever makes body press a headache to deal with
 

R8

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Your vision about what is "competitive" is also subjective, so...
You can argue that competitiveness has some aspects of subjectiveness as people can disagree on what is competitive and what isn't, but comparing it to fun is completely incorrect, as, unlike fun, the concept of competitiveness is pretty well defined and is the basis of Smogon's tiering policy. See: Smogon's tiering policy framework

I believe the following points taken from the TPF are relevant to mention here:

VI.) Even though some of these assumptions limit us, we will, within those limitations, work to maximize the concept of "player skill" determining the result of a match the majority of the time.

  • The majority of our potential suspect discussion will center around the defined versions of uncompetitive, broken, and unhealthy and how a particular suspect element lowers some component of player skill within those three constructs.
  • Any of the subsections in skill can be emphasized for a potential suspect.
    • If Shadow Tag reduces the battling skill component too much via removing smart switching and reducing the ability to assess risk, these should be mentioned when stating Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy.
    • If Toxapex is uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy, point out how it reduces player skill from being the major determining factor in a match and which component of skill it drastically takes away from.
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

  • This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
  • This can be external factors; think Endless Battle Clause, where the determining factor became internet connection over playing skill.
  • This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

  • These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.
  • These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
  • Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but they aren't necessarily entirely so.
    • Baton Pass was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to matchup, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
    • While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team matchup restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few obscure counters or checks for it.

IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.
  • These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
  • This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
  • This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
  • When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.
Something being fun or not depends on the way people like to play the game, and in the end says more about the people playing than the game itself. Competitiveness, however, is not a matter of perception: even though it can sometimes be a controversial topic, the definition is still the same for any Smogon metagame, while fun is defined by people's individual experience of the game.
 
As I said before, people who like Tera are not expressing their opinion, so you can have a distorted perception
So you're saying that there's enough of a non-vocal majority that is capable of getting reqs to create a distorted perception of the anti-ban faction being a supermajority?

If we let the tier stabilize with the tiering actions needed
As has been previously stated by myself and others:
1. You would need to ban/suspect literally half of the meta
2. This ignores the core issue, as most of these pokemon are perfectly fine outside of terra
This is also a very narrow minded take. While it is true that bans force metagame development to a certain degree, a tier with an active enough player base such as this one sees natural innovation and thus development. The tier is already stable enough to single out terra as by far the most unhealthy element currently present, and most well-informed posts reflect this stance.

First of all, not all those mons are broken
Sure they may not be broken right now, but if for example Dragapult gets banned then something like Iron Valiant for example will replace it as the next broken abuser, and get banned. You can't reasonably argue that this pattern will stop before most of the tier is banned.

there will always be a S rank mon, and if you ban it, another one will replace it.
The best mon in any given tier is not necessarily broken/banworthy. TornT currently sits at the very top of the meta, yet not a single person is arguing it's broken.

Your vision about what is "competitive" is also subjective, so...
look at the post above

Well, if we look at VR we will find S rank Dragapult (being Ghostium Z the most common set in all ranges, according to usage stats) and A+ rank Lopunny-Mega. Two of the most powerful mons right now can't even terastalize. I think that's self-explanatory of how "broken" the mechanic is by itself.
Ladder usage has proven to be a very bad metric of viability, at least in ND. Last gen, Latias was UUBL, but widely agreed to be one of the best pokemon, some even seriously discussing a suspect test. This gen we see Hoopa-U, Rillaboom and Greninja in OU, all three of which are very bad pokemon, while Zamazenta and Garganacl are UUBL, both suspect worthy pokemon. Also this isn't an issue of individual pokemon being broken, so the VR isn't the best metric.

To give a conclusion, trying to boycott the development of the tier to force the people to retest Tera seems ungentlemanly to me.
If the same DNB consensus is reached once more it is near impossible for there to be a third retest, and if what you said about most of the community being pro-DNB is true then this will happen and the evolution of the tier won't be "boycotted" at any point.

People voted and we have to respect that choice. If we are going to re-evaluate that decision in the future (which I am not opposed to), at least be fair and let the current tier develop to judge honestly.
The reason we're most likely getting a retest is because a majority was in fact reached, although a supermajority was required, and the recently opened thread on the topic proves that if anything even more people are against terra now than before. About your complaint on fairness, it's not like terra is getting quickbanned, we're just getting a retest. If a significant enough number of pro-DNB players get reqs and vote then terra stays
 
Okay, I think it's time to talk about it...

Zamazenta_1495360475_748832_1024x576.png



Alright, I have been seeing a ton of critiques on these 4 mons in particular...


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But First, a brief explaing on each mon...

:dragapult: Has 3 viables sets that are hard to scout; Dragon Dance, Choice Specs, and Hex.
Answers: Pursuit from bulky mons like Tyranitar or Kingambit can hard check it. Garcanacl, Gliscor, and Tapu Fini handle the Hex set well.


:kingambit:Excellent check to Dragapult. 2 amazing abilities in Defiant and Supreme Overlord, with the ladder making him a great comeback mon. Strong both as a Sd sweeper and a Pursuiter.
Answers: Sucker Punch is a 50/50, try and play around it. Bulky mons that resist Dark moves like Great Tusk, opposing Kingambit, Zamazenta, and some Tera Fairy mons like Garganacal and Skeledirge.

:annihilape:Rage Fist, plus Bulk Up and Drain Punch to further boost it. Destroys many Bulky Teams with the standard set.
Answers: Fast Taunt/Status mons tend to ruin it. Try to avoid chipping him with attacks, when u attack him, MAKE IT COUNT!(In other words, try to Ohko or 2hko it) Magic Bouncers like M-Diancie and Water Tera Hatterene do good. Strong fast wallbreakers Like Mega Charizard Y and Tornadus-Therian also do well offensively. And also Hisui-Zoroark sits on it.

:zamazenta:High Base Stats, great speed, power and bulk. Banded Close Combats really hurt, and either the Id Body Press or Z-Howl sets can be hard to handle if unattended.
Answers: Ghost types do well agaisnt Banded Close Combat, as well as Tapu Lele and Hatterene, however they fear Crunch, so try and scout it. Offensively, Speed boosted Iron Valiant, Choice Scarf Lele, Speed Specs Walking Wake under sun, or Dragapult do well to revenge kill it.


With that being, I would like to ask to you, if you think they deserve to be banned, and why?
 

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about15gals

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Okay, I think it's time to talk about it...

View attachment 502169


Alright, I have been seeing a ton of critiques on these 4 mons in particular...


View attachment 502071View attachment 502073View attachment 502079View attachment 502080
But First, some opinions of mine...

:dragapult: Has 3 viables sets that are hard to scout; Dragon Dance, Choice Specs, and Hex.
Answers: Pursuit from bulky mons like Tyranitar or Kingambit can hard check it. Garcanacl, Gliscor, and Tapu Fini handle the Hex set well.


:kingambit:Excellent check to Dragapult. 2 amazing abilities in Defiant and Supreme Overlord, with the ladder making him a great comeback mon. Strong both as a Sd sweeper and a Pursuiter.
Answers: Sucker Punch is a 50/50, try and play around it. Bulky mons that resist Dark moves like Great Tusk, opposing Kingambit, Zamazenta, and some Tera Fairy mons like Garganacal and Skeledirge.

:annihilape:Rage Fist, plus Bulk Up and Drain Punch to further boost it. Destroys many Bulky Teams with the standard set.
Answers: Fast Taunt/Status mons tend to ruin it. Try to avoid chipping him with attacks, when u attack him, MAKE IT COUNT!(In other words, try to Ohko or 2hko it) Magic Bouncers like M-Diancie and Water Tera Hatterene do good. Strong fast wallbreakers Like Mega Charizard Y and Tornadus-Therian also do well offensively. And also Hisui-Zoroark sits on it.

:zamazenta:High Base Stats, great speed, power and bulk. Banded Close Combats really hurt, and the Body Press set can be hard to handle if unatended.
Answers: Ghost types do well agaisnt Banded Close Combat, as well as Tapu Lele and Hatterene, however they fear Crunch, so try and scout it. Offensively, Speed boosted Iron Valiant, Choice Scarf Lele, Speed Specs Walking Wake under sun, or Dragapult do well to revenge kill it.


With that being, I would like to ask to you, if you think they deserve to be banned, and why?
imo ape and zama should definitely get the hammer, pult probably should and gambit should absolutely not get sent to ubers

first, :annihilape:
ape's 2 main sets- bulk up and rest- have drastically different answers, and often require slotting some uncommon mons/moves to beat, such as tera fairy garg and the like, the main issue I have with ape is that once it gets going, it's incredibly hard to stop, and it's an unnecessarily harsh check to pivot moves or more passive mons. Ape's ability to take a mon like clodsire and proceed to set up on it make it incredibly hard to stop once it gets going, as every single point of chip damage it takes only makes it harder to wall, it absolutely shreds slower bulkier teams with little to no effort as long as it gets the smallest amount of support, and has very few actual walls

second, current suspect test target, :zamazenta:
zamazenta's got 3 sets, all of which have very different counters (where have I heard this before) the fact of the matter is, if you misread any switchin when zama comes out if it's cb, you WILL lose a mon, or maybe even the game, it's insanely fast, has coverage for literally every single relevant mon in the metagame and packing an adaptability close combat boosted by choice band makes it a phenomenal breaker for teams that can afford to slot it. unfortunately, that's only set 1, idpress zama is a very potent setup sweeper, that often only needs 1-2 turns before obliterating a team, it's an excellent use of defensive tera, allowing it to beat mons that would normally beat it, like tapu lele, while it's more uncommon, its main strength is that it thrives on forcing what CB zama does best, switches, switching in on an idpress zama gives it a free turn to setup, making it that much harder to deal with. finally, the z-howl set, which uses a normallium z and howl as a one-time swords dance, this packs all the power of CB with none of the locking, making it incredible hard to switch into. while I feel like any one of these sets being on a single mon is generally fine (idpress garg isn't exactly a top-tier metagame threat) the fact that one mon can run any one of these 3 drastically different sets, each of which has their own checks and answers, of which you won't be able to tell if you predicted right until the zamazenta actually does the thing its set is doing pushes it over the edge imo, it's basically a 1/3 chance to just not lose a mon the first time it comes in each game

third, ssnd problem child, :dragapult:
this one's a bit shorter, but while I feel like pult is definitely a problematic mon and deserves to be banned, I just feel like right now S/V natdex ou has bigger fish to fry and more important mons that should get dealt with first

fourth, :kingambit:
this is by no means a weak mon, its one of the best revenge killers in this format and is fairly convincingly argued for being one of the best pursuit users in the tier, the main reason I don't hve issues with kingambit is while it has some pretty decent set variety (black glasses, lefties, odd CB variants) 95% of the time, its gameplan is always very similar and predictable, which is it'll either set up, click knock off or try and read a switch w/ pursuit. your mons that can check one set of kingambit's can probably check every other one too, so while it's strong, its not overbearing. in fact, I feel like kingambit being in this tier is basically the sole reason why dragapult is less of a problem than it should be, and I've seen that most people complaining about this mon aren't complaining about the mon itself, but rather how well it abuses tera, which is its own can of worms, but while boosting its sucker punches and the like to extreme damage values is a valid complaint, I feel like the issue lies within tera itself, not kingambit.

and now, for a mon I feel like not nearly enough people are talking about right now, :cyclizar:
in my opinion, I think cyclizar is a contender for the most problematic pokemon in ou right now, this thing was banned from S/V ou and for a damn good reason. free subsitutes are insanely valuable, and cyclizar is a phenomenal enabler for potent setup sweepers like dragapult, dragonite or ddance mgyara. this issue is only further exacerbated by the existence of koko/grimm screens, often giving sweepers 2-3 free turns, which gives them ample time to then sweep through teams not immediately prepared, and on top of all that, cyclizar has great utility outside of shed tail, being able to rapid spin on hazards, access to a fast taunt or threaten revenge kills on mons like mscizor and heatran, currently the single reason that screens HO is one of, if not the best archetype right now

but hey, I'm just kinda a shitter so take some of what I say with a grain of salt as I feel there are people much more qualified than me to have an opinion on the current metagame state in S/V ndou, these are just my opinions, and I'd be glad to hear yours as well on the matter
:cheem-pao:
 
imo ape and zama should definitely get the hammer, pult probably should and gambit should absolutely not get sent to ubers

first, :annihilape:
ape's 2 main sets- bulk up and rest- have drastically different answers, and often require slotting some uncommon mons/moves to beat, such as tera fairy garg and the like, the main issue I have with ape is that once it gets going, it's incredibly hard to stop, and it's an unnecessarily harsh check to pivot moves or more passive mons. Ape's ability to take a mon like clodsire and proceed to set up on it make it incredibly hard to stop once it gets going, as every single point of chip damage it takes only makes it harder to wall, it absolutely shreds slower bulkier teams with little to no effort as long as it gets the smallest amount of support, and has very few actual walls

second, current suspect test target, :zamazenta:
zamazenta's got 3 sets, all of which have very different counters (where have I heard this before) the fact of the matter is, if you misread any switchin when zama comes out if it's cb, you WILL lose a mon, or maybe even the game, it's insanely fast, has coverage for literally every single relevant mon in the metagame and packing an adaptability close combat boosted by choice band makes it a phenomenal breaker for teams that can afford to slot it. unfortunately, that's only set 1, idpress zama is a very potent setup sweeper, that often only needs 1-2 turns before obliterating a team, it's an excellent use of defensive tera, allowing it to beat mons that would normally beat it, like tapu lele, while it's more uncommon, its main strength is that it thrives on forcing what CB zama does best, switches, switching in on an idpress zama gives it a free turn to setup, making it that much harder to deal with. finally, the z-howl set, which uses a normallium z and howl as a one-time swords dance, this packs all the power of CB with none of the locking, making it incredible hard to switch into. while I feel like any one of these sets being on a single mon is generally fine (idpress garg isn't exactly a top-tier metagame threat) the fact that one mon can run any one of these 3 drastically different sets, each of which has their own checks and answers, of which you won't be able to tell if you predicted right until the zamazenta actually does the thing its set is doing pushes it over the edge imo, it's basically a 1/3 chance to just not lose a mon the first time it comes in each game

third, ssnd problem child, :dragapult:
this one's a bit shorter, but while I feel like pult is definitely a problematic mon and deserves to be banned, I just feel like right now S/V natdex ou has bigger fish to fry and more important mons that should get dealt with first

fourth, :kingambit:
this is by no means a weak mon, its one of the best revenge killers in this format and is fairly convincingly argued for being one of the best pursuit users in the tier, the main reason I don't hve issues with kingambit is while it has some pretty decent set variety (black glasses, lefties, odd CB variants) 95% of the time, its gameplan is always very similar and predictable, which is it'll either set up, click knock off or try and read a switch w/ pursuit. your mons that can check one set of kingambit's can probably check every other one too, so while it's strong, its not overbearing. in fact, I feel like kingambit being in this tier is basically the sole reason why dragapult is less of a problem than it should be, and I've seen that most people complaining about this mon aren't complaining about the mon itself, but rather how well it abuses tera, which is its own can of worms, but while boosting its sucker punches and the like to extreme damage values is a valid complaint, I feel like the issue lies within tera itself, not kingambit.

and now, for a mon I feel like not nearly enough people are talking about right now, :cyclizar:
in my opinion, I think cyclizar is a contender for the most problematic pokemon in ou right now, this thing was banned from S/V ou and for a damn good reason. free subsitutes are insanely valuable, and cyclizar is a phenomenal enabler for potent setup sweepers like dragapult, dragonite or ddance mgyara. this issue is only further exacerbated by the existence of koko/grimm screens, often giving sweepers 2-3 free turns, which gives them ample time to then sweep through teams not immediately prepared, and on top of all that, cyclizar has great utility outside of shed tail, being able to rapid spin on hazards, access to a fast taunt or threaten revenge kills on mons like mscizor and heatran, currently the single reason that screens HO is one of, if not the best archetype right now

but hey, I'm just kinda a shitter so take some of what I say with a grain of salt as I feel there are people much more qualified than me to have an opinion on the current metagame state in S/V ndou, these are just my opinions, and I'd be glad to hear yours as well on the matter
:cheem-pao:
Yeah I forgot about the Z-Howl set, thanks for reminding me.
 
Yeah, so I just started playing this tier the other day and am trying to get a feel for some of the various Pokemon. Gotta say, a lot of games feel like I'm walking on eggshells, mainly because random Z-Moves will OHKO some otherwise moderately bulky Pokemon like Tornadus-T. It feels like this happens a lot where the opponent has some random Z-Move and just OHKOes me or deals 70% to a resist, putting me in a bad spot lol. Maybe this is a skill issue, idk. Some playstyles like Rain have some pretty strong abusers, which can also be difficult to specifically prepare for, though I do kinda like Tera as a way to somewhat patch up weakness, but it also can make it harder to deal w/ some abusers like Urshifu. In general, the Speed and Power of this meta feel WAY higher than in OU, probably due to the Megas like Mega Loppunny. Also feels like Tera is generally more situational than in OU here, I think this is due to Z-Moves and Megas limiting the number of potential Tera Candidates. I guess this does have the side-effect of making dedicated Tera Pokemon easier to slot in, wheras in OU, you can be more flexible w/ Tera, which can be a good or bad thing depending on your point of view.

I do like Rocky Helmet Tornadus-T. Feels very nice vs Pokemon like Lopunny and is pretty much guaranteed to deal some good chip to it rather than dealing with Hurricane's shitty accuracy and missing lol. In general, it does a pretty good job at using Knock Off, dealing good chip w/ Rocky Helmet / U-Turn, and Defogging, though its health not being in pristine shape because of Helmet can be an issue at times.

It feels so good using Mega Scizor again. The weakness to hazards is annoying, but its bulk, priority, powerful slow U-Turn, and great defensive profile make it feel particularly amazing in this metagame to "blanket check" some key threats like Diancie, Kartana, etc.

Kingambit is pretty damn good, even better than in OU, mainly because STAB Pursuit and Knock are OP & its got the bulk and typing to put it to good use. Find it interesting that its main set is really similar to Absol in earlier gen's lower tiers, but better in almost every way because it can actually afford to make mistakes.

Iron Valiant strangely feels like a UU Pokemon in terms of offenses compared to mons like Mega Lopunny. Feels like it has to deal w/ more resist to its STAB Moonblast and faster Pokemon that can revenge kill it, making it harder to get consistent mileage out of it. On the flipside, its speed is still great, and Electric Terrain support is easier to come by w/ support from mons like Tapu Koko.

Mega Lopunny feels broken af, extremely fast and strong, has virtually no switch-ins, can't be revenged killed, Fake Out to stall out turns for Rain / Terrain, etc. It does struggle w/ some Rocky Helmet mons though, which I have been taking advantage of w/ Rocky Helmet Torn, but that's only because most Mega Lop like going for Fake Out instead of Return / Frustration first.
 

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Gotta say, a lot of games feel like I'm walking on eggshells, mainly because random Z-Moves will OHKO some otherwise moderately bulky Pokemon like Tornadus-T. It feels like this happens a lot where the opponent has some random Z-Move and just OHKOes me or deals 70% to a resist, putting me in a bad spot lol.
im ngl when i read this i thought this was a parody of some sorts to all the tera ban arguments, but seeing that it isnt based on the rest of your posts, im genuinely curious which “random z moves” have caused issues to you? personally I havent seen or had this issue myself, and i havent really heard this concern from others as well, so i would love to hear your experiences with this. IMO z moves itself are very obvious on preview / just based on how the mon is played early on, not even counting the fact that they are not that common currently with tera taking away from a ton of abusers, which leads me onto my next point.

Also feels like Tera is generally more situational than in OU here, I think this is due to Z-Moves and Megas limiting the number of potential Tera Candidates. I guess this does have the side-effect of making dedicated Tera Pokemon easier to slot in, wheras in OU, you can be more flexible w/ Tera, which can be a good or bad thing depending on your point of view.
Im ngl i was VERY confused when i read this, I had to do a double take and reread this to see if i understood it properly lol. I wholeheartedly disagree with this, with natdex you have 20 million more abusers that break tera which ou currently lacks, and that definitely makes up for the 1 or 2 mons which zs or megas would take over. to make sure i covered all my bases, i talked with the discord about this, trying my best to find some genuine examples on which mons who currently run z’s or megas would in practice be a consistent tera user without those in mind. the best we could come up with was garchomp, which even then, mega, sdz, and tank all play completely differently, ive seen both sd scale on mega and on tera, but both only once, and with that i dont really think its a mon thats that explored where you can consistently say megas / zs take the tera opportunity from it. i havent even seen sd z at all, 99% of them have been tank which run tera, with 1 special mega, 2 tera sd scale and 1 sd scale mega (from my own experiences). so i am extremely curious to hear which pokemon your referring to which would be a consistent tera user realistically without megas or zs. Honestly i think its the other way around lol, so much mons which last time could run z as a cool tech option now just for tera since its so much better and more overall useful. i genuinely have not had / seen anyone have the issue of tera not being flexible enough, in fact, its more the contrary, with it being far too flexible.

Iron Valiant strangely feels like a UU Pokemon in terms of offenses compared to mons like Mega Lopunny. Feels like it has to deal w/ more resist to its STAB Moonblast and faster Pokemon that can revenge kill it, making it harder to get consistent mileage out of it. On the flipside, its speed is still great, and Electric Terrain support is easier to come by w/ support from mons like Tapu Koko.
this is quite honestly quite an insane take from my perspective, and was quite baffling to contemplate. with already similiar offensive stats to mlop, alongside the ability to hold items (specs lol), as well as the fact that it can tera + having a much more spammable stab when it hits so hard, means it hits much much harder than mlop, ie having specs tera fairy moon 3hkoing /2hkoing after chip common resists like ferro ghold and pex, it is an insane breaker which mlop cant compare to in that department. there are also barely any mons faster than it and slower than mlop, off the top off my head the really notable ones are like torn t, weavile, and opposing mlop. i exclude koko since that literally boosts its speed even further, to levels which mlop cant imagine, ie mpert in rain, scarf kart, sun wake, scarf lele, +1 base 100s, +1 gyara tusk kommo o, pult, and zama. those 3 mons are important, alongside mlops fo + qa + turn tool kit letting it function as one of the best rkillers / cleaners, but its power level cant even come to close to valiants level as a breaker, i really wouldnt compare it, but even then, if your saying it feels like a uu pokemon i dont think your using valiant properly lol.

Mega Lopunny feels broken af, extremely fast and strong, has virtually no switch-ins, can't be revenged killed, Fake Out to stall out turns for Rain / Terrain, etc. It does struggle w/ some Rocky Helmet mons though, which I have been taking advantage of w/ Rocky Helmet Torn, but that's only because most Mega Lop like going for Fake Out instead of Return / Frustration first.
this is also quite a bonkers take 2 me, and honestly seems more like a tier understanding / building issue, its super fast sure, its power is veey good but not like that notable in that department, but the virtually no switch ins irks me. reading the next few lines i seem to understand why you feel this lol. if your using rocky helmet torn as both your defogger and your lop check unfortunately you will lose to lop, rocks in this meta are stupid easy to get up, and non boots non z torn is not able to consistently defog while functioning as a check to something like lop. here are some actual lop checks: physdef lando, slowbro, pex, zapdos, skarm, tankchomp, dirge, buzzwole, clefable, are the hard checks i can think off of the top of my head, some of the softer / less common / more specific ones include boots torn + some rkiller / other soft check, zama, hands, mew, tork and pelliper respectively, washer, scarf fini and lele etc, and of course the plenty of rkillers we have in this tier, from pult to zama to our scarfers, to the booster mons like valiant and wake, etc. hopefully these help you building wise, because im quite concerned how you build without these mons :sob:
 
im ngl when i read this i thought this was a parody of some sorts to all the tera ban arguments, but seeing that it isnt based on the rest of your posts, im genuinely curious which “random z moves” have caused issues to you? personally I havent seen or had this issue myself, and i havent really heard this concern from others as well, so i would love to hear your experiences with this. IMO z moves itself are very obvious on preview / just based on how the mon is played early on, not even counting the fact that they are not that common currently with tera taking away from a ton of abusers, which leads me onto my next point.
Its likely more of a match-up experience issue. I don't know what sets are popular on ND, but I would encounter a variety of "surprise" Z-Moves as I was laddering on say vs Zoroark or Heatran, which became a bit more obvious while I was battling but wasn't obvious on Preview, but still surprised me in the moment & usually something I didn't have an answer too. I'm not a good teambuilder though + have mostly been playing the tier w/ teams I stole, making slight variations here and there, so I'm not exactly sure what the best way to deal with Z-Moves apart from maybe running protect or just gitting good and seeing what the common Z-Move users are. So far, its been a free KO for the opponent every time I've encountered it, or Heatran dealing 70+ to Rotom-W w/ Inferno Overdrive.
Im ngl i was VERY confused when i read this, I had to do a double take and reread this to see if i understood it properly lol. I wholeheartedly disagree with this, with natdex you have 20 million more abusers that break tera which ou currently lacks, and that definitely makes up for the 1 or 2 mons which zs or megas would take over. to make sure i covered all my bases, i talked with the discord about this, trying my best to find some genuine examples on which mons who currently run z’s or megas would in practice be a consistent tera user without those in mind. the best we could come up with was garchomp, which even then, mega, sdz, and tank all play completely differently, ive seen both sd scale on mega and on tera, but both only once, and with that i dont really think its a mon thats that explored where you can consistently say megas / zs take the tera opportunity from it. i havent even seen sd z at all, 99% of them have been tank which run tera, with 1 special mega, 2 tera sd scale and 1 sd scale mega (from my own experiences). so i am extremely curious to hear which pokemon your referring to which would be a consistent tera user realistically without megas or zs. Honestly i think its the other way around lol, so much mons which last time could run z as a cool tech option now just for tera since its so much better and more overall useful. i genuinely have not had / seen anyone have the issue of tera not being flexible enough, in fact, its more the contrary, with it being far too flexible.
In OU, all 6 Pokemon on your Team can Tera. In National Dex, any team running a Mega or Z- will only have 5 Pokemon that can Tera and 4 if you elect to run Z-Moves as well. This objectively makes Tera less flexible since less Pokemon will be able to Tera at a given point. Granted, it still is flexible too, particularly as not all teams opt to run Z-moves, but compared to OU, I've seldomly have to defensively Tera certain threats barring in bad MUs like vs Rain and even then, it is largely a liability due to these teams having stronger countermeasures vs something like a Water-Tera with Pokemon like Zapdos and Ferrothorn. I've mostly just used it for offensive purposes (i.e Spamming Moonblast w/ Iron Valiant which still can be a risky proposition from my experience given its frailty + increasing chip damage it takes from SR, Dark- and Bug-moves, etc, so I don't go for it unless its end-game).

Not sure what the point about consistent Tera users w/o Z-moves / Megas is trying to get at? My point was that dedicated Tera users are more feasible in natdex compared to OU due to Megas and Z-Moves limiting slots for Tera mons. I'm sure there are scenarios and MUs that Mega Garchomp would like the ability to go Tera Fire to resist Fairy moves and hit its Targets w/ Fire Blast or avoid a Will-O-Wisp & the fact it can't is a disadvantage. I don't think it would be a dedicated slot per say, but its an option it would appreciate in various MUs.

That said I most likely was incorrect about the point on "dedicated" Tera in general and don't think its true looking back on it, so I'll concede there.

this is quite honestly quite an insane take from my perspective, and was quite baffling to contemplate. with already similiar offensive stats to mlop, alongside the ability to hold items (specs lol), as well as the fact that it can tera + having a much more spammable stab when it hits so hard, means it hits much much harder than mlop, ie having specs tera fairy moon 3hkoing /2hkoing after chip common resists like ferro ghold and pex, it is an insane breaker which mlop cant compare to in that department. there are also barely any mons faster than it and slower than mlop, off the top off my head the really notable ones are like torn t, weavile, and opposing mlop. i exclude koko since that literally boosts its speed even further, to levels which mlop cant imagine, ie mpert in rain, scarf kart, sun wake, scarf lele, +1 base 100s, +1 gyara tusk kommo o, pult, and zama. those 3 mons are important, alongside mlops fo + qa + turn tool kit letting it function as one of the best rkillers / cleaners, but its power level cant even come to close to valiants level as a breaker, i really wouldnt compare it, but even then, if your saying it feels like a uu pokemon i dont think your using valiant properly lol.
For the record, I think Valiant is a good Pokemon and its solo'd many end-games for me even w/o Tera or E-Terrain support. Calling it a UU Pokemon in terms of power was a bit of an exaggeration, admittingly. However, if you play OU, you'll see where I'm coming from when I say the env for Valiant is a lot harsher here than in OU. Way more Pokemon outspeed it in this meta, including top tier threats Mega Lop, Torn-T, Zamazenta, Tapu Koko, etc. and it has to deal with more dangerous Moonblast resist than in OU, like Ferrothorn, Zard-Y kinda (dies after rocks), Mega Scizor, etc. In OU, you can kinda be a bit more brainless w/ Valiant, mainly just spamming Moonblast and going for the occasional Psyshock on the obv Clod or Iron Moth switch-in. In Natdex, it'll be dealing w/ way more 50/50s against staple cores like Pelipper + Ferrothorn, Walking Wake + Zard-Y, etc. and higher overall speed tier can make it harder for it to steamroll end-games like in OU, though its still very much possible.
this is also quite a bonkers take 2 me, and honestly seems more like a tier understanding / building issue, its super fast sure, its power is veey good but not like that notable in that department, but the virtually no switch ins irks me. reading the next few lines i seem to understand why you feel this lol. if your using rocky helmet torn as both your defogger and your lop check unfortunately you will lose to lop, rocks in this meta are stupid easy to get up, and non boots non z torn is not able to consistently defog while functioning as a check to something like lop. here are some actual lop checks: physdef lando, slowbro, pex, zapdos, skarm, tankchomp, dirge, buzzwole, clefable, are the hard checks i can think off of the top of my head, some of the softer / less common / more specific ones include boots torn + some rkiller / other soft check, zama, hands, mew, tork and pelliper respectively, washer, scarf fini and lele etc, and of course the plenty of rkillers we have in this tier, from pult to zama to our scarfers, to the booster mons like valiant and wake, etc. hopefully these help you building wise, because im quite concerned how you build without these mons :sob:
Yeah, I overexaggerated this point, haven't experimented w/ too many of my own teams + the team I'm laddering w/ is kinda weak to it., so it is more of an MU / builder issue.
 
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adem

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Its likely more of a match-up experience issue. I don't know what sets are popular on ND, but I would encounter a variety of "surprise" Z-Moves as I was laddering on say vs Zoroark or Heatran, which became a bit more obvious while I was battling but wasn't obvious on Preview, but still surprised me in the moment & usually something I didn't have an answer too. I'm not a good teambuilder though + have mostly been playing the tier w/ teams I stole, making slight variations here and there, so I'm not exactly sure what the best way to deal with Z-Moves apart from maybe running protect or just gitting good and seeing what the common Z-Move users are. So far, its been a free KO for the opponent every time I've encountered it, or Heatran dealing 70+ to Rotom-W w/ Inferno Overdrive.
yeah this makes sense, just play the tier mon and this wont be the case really, itll get more obvious as you play more

In OU, all 6 Pokemon on your Team can Tera. In National Dex, any team running a Mega or Z- will only have 5 Pokemon that can Tera and 4 if you elect to run Z-Moves as well. This objectively makes Tera less flexible since less Pokemon will be able to Tera at a given point. Granted, it still is flexible too, particularly as not all teams opt to run Z-moves, but compared to OU, I've seldomly have to defensively Tera certain threats barring in bad MUs like vs Rain and even then, it is largely a liability due to these teams having stronger countermeasures vs something like a Water-Tera with Pokemon like Zapdos and Ferrothorn. I've mostly just used it for offensive purposes (i.e Spamming Moonblast w/ Iron Valiant which still can be a risky proposition from my experience given its frailty + increasing chip damage it takes from SR, Dark- and Bug-moves, etc, so I don't go for it unless its end-game).
thats the thing, yes, objectively, you will have 1/2 less pokemon that can tera, sure, but most of the time these mons arent going to tera anyways / you wouldnt be using this specific set / mon if you could tera, hence why i specified on paper, like, why does it matter if you cant tera your dd z pult, if you could the set wouldnt be good, and it needs z to function. other stuff that do run z run tera offensively anyways, and can alternate between the two, and both work in the same way (lets it break through x check), so atp z moves are really just another way to break through your answers, dont see why you would need to use tera there if z moves do the same. and with megas, i really wouldnt see them as a seperate mechanic and rather as a whole seperate pokemon, and again i dont see why you would need to tera that slot, why do you need to have all 6 mons be able to tera if 5 of them are the only ones that will actually utilise tera. and again, you dont need to use either your mega or z move slot if you need to have something use tera there instead for whatever specific matchup, z moves are more than droppable and there arent that many amazing megas anyways. Irt defensively tera idk what mons your water-teraing that want to stay in vs zapdos or ferro even outside of tera, my best guess is something like lando but thats not touching either one of them, or maybe with dirge in the case of ferro but like even then pretty sure you should just wisp it and beat it anyways, and it doesnt do much back. irt the offensive tera, yeah most cases you get the most bang out of your buck from offensively tera-ing stuff, but i feel like the ‘risks’ you mention are greatly overstated, if you‘re dedicated to teraing valiant i am pretty sure uturn and knock of hitting slightly harder arent really big risks your taking.

For the record, I think Valiant is a good Pokemon and its solo'd many end-games for me even w/o Tera or E-Terrain support. Calling it a UU Pokemon in terms of power was a bit of an exaggeration, admittingly. However, if you play OU, you'll see where I'm coming from when I say the env for Valiant is a lot harsher here than in OU. Way more Pokemon outspeed it in this meta, including top tier threats Mega Lop, Torn-T, Zamazenta, Tapu Koko, etc. and it has to deal with more dangerous Moonblast resist than in OU, like Ferrothorn, Zard-Y kinda (dies after rocks), Mega Scizor, etc. In OU, you can kinda be a bit more brainless w/ Valiant, mainly just spamming Moonblast and going for the occasional Psyshock on the obv Clod or Iron Moth switch-in. In Natdex, it'll be dealing w/ way more 50/50s against staple cores like Pelipper + Ferrothorn, Walking Wake + Zard-Y, etc. and higher overall speed tier can make it harder for it to steamroll end-games like in OU, though its still very much possible.
Well yeah its worse here than in OU, not denying that at all, but it is definitely still a top tier mon here, most resists like ferro all falter to 2 moonblasts after some chip anyways once you click the funny button, im pretty sure even yard is a slight roll to be 2hkoed, and obviously cm sets smash all guessing games, but yeah, glad that you addressed that it was an exagerration, i was quite confused how you got there.

ah, I overexaggerated this point, haven't experimented w/ too many of my own teams + the team I'm laddering w/ is kinda weak to it., so it is more of an MU / builder issue.
:thumbsup: let me know if you need any teams, im happy to provide in the nd cord ^^
 

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National Dex Leader
Ladder usage stats are up! (from here)
Code:
Combined usage for National Dex (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          | 29.579% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   | 19.491% |
| 3    | Great Tusk         | 19.361% |
| 4    | Walking Wake       | 18.880% |
| 5    | Dragapult          | 15.223% |
| 6    | Charizard-Mega-Y   | 14.422% |
| 7    | Gholdengo          | 13.709% |
| 8    | Tapu Lele          | 12.660% |
| 9    | Heatran            | 12.304% |
| 10   | Zapdos             | 12.297% |
| 11   | Clodsire           | 11.741% |
| 12   | Tapu Koko          | 11.712% |
| 13   | Ferrothorn         | 11.550% |
| 14   | Lopunny-Mega       | 10.950% |
| 15   | Rillaboom          |  9.971% |
| 16   | Tornadus-Therian   |  9.138% |
| 17   | Rotom-Wash         |  8.780% |
| 18   | Diancie-Mega       |  8.602% |
| 19   | Scizor-Mega        |  8.599% |
| 20   | Garchomp           |  8.290% |
| 21   | Iron Valiant       |  8.277% |
| 22   | Hatterene          |  7.986% |
| 23   | Glimmora           |  7.819% |
| 24   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  7.755% |
| 25   | Kartana            |  7.714% |
| 26   | Dragonite          |  7.637% |
| 27   | Corviknight        |  7.457% |
| 28   | Volcarona          |  7.234% |
| 29   | Cyclizar           |  7.048% |
| 30   | Annihilape         |  6.422% |
| 31   | Torkoal            |  6.374% |
| 32   | Toxapex            |  6.244% |
| 33   | Pelipper           |  6.210% |
| 34   | Zamazenta          |  5.855% |
| 35   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  5.628% |
| 36   | Garganacl          |  5.598% |
| 37   | Swampert-Mega      |  5.221% |
| 38   | Zoroark-Hisui      |  4.866% |
| 39   | Skeledirge         |  4.452% |
| 40   | Grimmsnarl         |  4.179% |
| 41   | Tapu Fini          |  4.052% |
| 42   | Ting-Lu            |  3.815% |
| 43   | Gliscor            |  3.723% |
| 44   | Gyarados-Mega      |  3.677% |
| 45   | Greninja-Ash       |  3.617% |
| 46   | Tyranitar          |  3.523% |
| 47   | Kommo-o            |  3.467% |
| 48   | Serperior          |  3.340% |
| 49   | Victini            |  3.336% |
| 50   | Excadrill          |  3.325% |
| 51   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  2.989% |
| 52   | Iron Hands         |  2.966% |
| 53   | Chansey            |  2.960% |
| 54   | Mawile-Mega        |  2.890% |
| 55   | Medicham-Mega      |  2.881% |
| 56   | Weavile            |  2.801% |
| 57   | Baxcalibur         |  2.537% |
| 58   | Slowking-Galar     |  2.503% |
| 59   | Blissey            |  2.484% |
| 60   | Iron Moth          |  2.453% |
| 61   | Venusaur           |  2.440% |
| 62   | Kyurem             |  2.428% |
| 63   | Buzzwole           |  2.393% |
| 64   | Clefable           |  2.289% |
| 65   | Cinderace          |  2.243% |
| 66   | Hawlucha           |  2.201% |
| 67   | Blaziken           |  2.200% |
| 68   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.117% |
| 69   | Orthworm           |  2.071% |
| 70   | Slowbro            |  2.052% |
| 71   | Greninja           |  2.045% |
| 72   | Iron Leaves        |  1.997% |
| 73   | Dondozo            |  1.967% |
| 74   | Ceruledge          |  1.945% |
| 75   | Magnezone          |  1.711% |
| 76   | Venusaur-Mega      |  1.698% |
| 77   | Xurkitree          |  1.655% |
| 78   | Aegislash          |  1.576% |
| 79   | Sableye-Mega       |  1.576% |
| 80   | Iron Treads        |  1.553% |
| 81   | Skarmory           |  1.473% |
| 82   | Beedrill-Mega      |  1.457% |
| 83   | Hydreigon          |  1.413% |
| 84   | Slowking           |  1.412% |
| 85   | Meowscarada        |  1.377% |
| 86   | Mew                |  1.328% |
| 87   | Ribombee           |  1.289% |
| 88   | Ninetales-Alola    |  1.288% |
| 89   | Garchomp-Mega      |  1.235% |
| 90   | Ditto              |  1.228% |
| 91   | Kingdra            |  1.226% |
| 92   | Manaphy            |  1.224% |
| 93   | Celesteela         |  1.223% |
| 94   | Cresselia          |  1.150% |
| 95   | Pinsir-Mega        |  1.119% |
| 96   | Gastrodon          |  1.115% |
| 97   | Barraskewda        |  1.081% |
| 98   | Blacephalon        |  1.074% |
| 99   | Hippowdon          |  1.024% |
| 100  | Manectric-Mega     |  1.005% |
| 101  | Gardevoir-Mega     |  1.003% |
I'm curious to read y'all thoughts about this. What are the overrated/underrated threats on the ladder? Are there trends you are noticing? Of course the natdex ladder is known to sometimes not be the best (I doubt rilla really deserve 10% usage lol), but I think it still is interesting to look at the usages and try to figure out what people are trying to pull off at the moment.


There are a couple things I'd like to comment about:

:kingambit:
Kingambit being the most used mon in the tier is probably a surprise to no one, as it is worth considering on pretty much any playstyle ranging from fat to hyper offense, not only due to the sheer threat it poses but also its ability to trap dumb mon dragapult and to revenge a significant portion of the tier thanks to its strong sucker punches, which is something extremely valuable in a metagame overrun by a billion different threats that are often difficult to account for. Great Tusk being third is probably just the ladder coping with Kingambit tbh, especially considering how badly the mon matchups against most of the other top tiers.

:charizard-mega-y:
The natdex ladder always was known to be a bit obsessed by zardy, but I do not recall it ever taking the 6th spot on ladder stats, even during gen8. I assume that this is a consequence of the introduction of Walking Wake to the tier, and people attempting to abuse Protosynthesis. This would also explain how Torkoal went from February's 4.4% to the current 6.3%. Generally, it looks like ladder players decided to not sleep on walking wake, including it on a fifth of their teams. Even though I do think the mon deserves its OU (maybe top tier) status, I believe the new toy syndrome has a lot to do with this usage stat.

:clodsire:
Yada yada, the mon is not great, this is something that lot of pple said already, and this is not something I'm going to disagree with. That being said, I do think it being so high in the usages can be easily explained: it probably is a reaction to some mons that can be genuinely difficult to take account of in the builder, such as Walking Wake, Gholdengo or Iron Valiant. I think that also might mean that pple didn't realize yet that Kingambit can pursuit trap clodsire quite easily.
 
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Ladder usage stats are up!
Code:
Combined usage for National Dex (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          | 29.579% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   | 19.491% |
| 3    | Great Tusk         | 19.361% |
| 4    | Walking Wake       | 18.880% |
| 5    | Dragapult          | 15.223% |
| 6    | Charizard-Mega-Y   | 14.422% |
| 7    | Gholdengo          | 13.709% |
| 8    | Tapu Lele          | 12.660% |
| 9    | Heatran            | 12.304% |
| 10   | Zapdos             | 12.297% |
| 11   | Clodsire           | 11.741% |
| 12   | Tapu Koko          | 11.712% |
| 13   | Ferrothorn         | 11.550% |
| 14   | Lopunny-Mega       | 10.950% |
| 15   | Rillaboom          |  9.971% |
| 16   | Tornadus-Therian   |  9.138% |
| 17   | Rotom-Wash         |  8.780% |
| 18   | Diancie-Mega       |  8.602% |
| 19   | Scizor-Mega        |  8.599% |
| 20   | Garchomp           |  8.290% |
| 21   | Iron Valiant       |  8.277% |
| 22   | Hatterene          |  7.986% |
| 23   | Glimmora           |  7.819% |
| 24   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  7.755% |
| 25   | Kartana            |  7.714% |
| 26   | Dragonite          |  7.637% |
| 27   | Corviknight        |  7.457% |
| 28   | Volcarona          |  7.234% |
| 29   | Cyclizar           |  7.048% |
| 30   | Annihilape         |  6.422% |
| 31   | Torkoal            |  6.374% |
| 32   | Toxapex            |  6.244% |
| 33   | Pelipper           |  6.210% |
| 34   | Zamazenta          |  5.855% |
| 35   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  5.628% |
| 36   | Garganacl          |  5.598% |
| 37   | Swampert-Mega      |  5.221% |
| 38   | Zoroark-Hisui      |  4.866% |
| 39   | Skeledirge         |  4.452% |
| 40   | Grimmsnarl         |  4.179% |
| 41   | Tapu Fini          |  4.052% |
| 42   | Ting-Lu            |  3.815% |
| 43   | Gliscor            |  3.723% |
| 44   | Gyarados-Mega      |  3.677% |
| 45   | Greninja-Ash       |  3.617% |
| 46   | Tyranitar          |  3.523% |
| 47   | Kommo-o            |  3.467% |
| 48   | Serperior          |  3.340% |
| 49   | Victini            |  3.336% |
| 50   | Excadrill          |  3.325% |
| 51   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  2.989% |
| 52   | Iron Hands         |  2.966% |
| 53   | Chansey            |  2.960% |
| 54   | Mawile-Mega        |  2.890% |
| 55   | Medicham-Mega      |  2.881% |
| 56   | Weavile            |  2.801% |
| 57   | Baxcalibur         |  2.537% |
| 58   | Slowking-Galar     |  2.503% |
| 59   | Blissey            |  2.484% |
| 60   | Iron Moth          |  2.453% |
| 61   | Venusaur           |  2.440% |
| 62   | Kyurem             |  2.428% |
| 63   | Buzzwole           |  2.393% |
| 64   | Clefable           |  2.289% |
| 65   | Cinderace          |  2.243% |
| 66   | Hawlucha           |  2.201% |
| 67   | Blaziken           |  2.200% |
| 68   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.117% |
| 69   | Orthworm           |  2.071% |
| 70   | Slowbro            |  2.052% |
| 71   | Greninja           |  2.045% |
| 72   | Iron Leaves        |  1.997% |
| 73   | Dondozo            |  1.967% |
| 74   | Ceruledge          |  1.945% |
| 75   | Magnezone          |  1.711% |
| 76   | Venusaur-Mega      |  1.698% |
| 77   | Xurkitree          |  1.655% |
| 78   | Aegislash          |  1.576% |
| 79   | Sableye-Mega       |  1.576% |
| 80   | Iron Treads        |  1.553% |
| 81   | Skarmory           |  1.473% |
| 82   | Beedrill-Mega      |  1.457% |
| 83   | Hydreigon          |  1.413% |
| 84   | Slowking           |  1.412% |
| 85   | Meowscarada        |  1.377% |
| 86   | Mew                |  1.328% |
| 87   | Ribombee           |  1.289% |
| 88   | Ninetales-Alola    |  1.288% |
| 89   | Garchomp-Mega      |  1.235% |
| 90   | Ditto              |  1.228% |
| 91   | Kingdra            |  1.226% |
| 92   | Manaphy            |  1.224% |
| 93   | Celesteela         |  1.223% |
| 94   | Cresselia          |  1.150% |
| 95   | Pinsir-Mega        |  1.119% |
| 96   | Gastrodon          |  1.115% |
| 97   | Barraskewda        |  1.081% |
| 98   | Blacephalon        |  1.074% |
| 99   | Hippowdon          |  1.024% |
| 100  | Manectric-Mega     |  1.005% |
| 101  | Gardevoir-Mega     |  1.003% |
I'm curious to read y'all thoughts about this. What are the overrated/underrated threats on the ladder? Are there trends you are noticing? Of course the natdex ladder is known to sometimes not be the best (I doubt rilla really deserve 10% usage lol), but I think it still is interesting to look at the usages and try to figure out what people are trying to pull off at the moment.


There are a couple things I'd like to comment about:

:kingambit:
Kingambit being the most used mon in the tier is probably a surprise to no one, as it is worth considering on pretty much any playstyle ranging from fat to hyper offense, not only due to the sheer threat it poses but also its ability to trap dumb mon dragapult and to revenge a significant portion of the tier thanks to its strong sucker punches, which is something extremely valuable in a metagame overrun by a billion different threats that are often difficult to account for. Great Tusk being third is probably just the ladder coping with Kingambit tbh, especially considering how badly the mon matchups against most of the other top tiers.

:charizard-mega-y:
The natdex ladder always was known to be a bit obsessed by zardy, but I do not recall it ever taking the 6th spot on ladder stats, even during gen8. I assume that this is a consequence of the introduction of Walking Wake to the tier, and people attempting to abuse Protosynthesis. This would also explain how Torkoal went from February's 4.4% to the current 6.3%. Generally, it looks like ladder players decided to not sleep on walking wake, including it on a fifth of their teams. Even though I do think the mon deserves its OU (maybe top tier) status, I believe the new toy syndrome has a lot to do with this usage stat.

:clodsire:
Yada yada, the mon is not great, this is something that lot of pple said already, and this is not something I'm going to disagree with. That being said, I do think it being so high in the usages can be easily explained: it probably is a reaction to some mons that can be genuinely difficult to take account of in the builder, such as Walking Wake, Gholdengo or Iron Valiant. I think that also might mean that pple didn't realize yet that Kingambit can pursuit trap clodsire quite easily.
Well one thing I will like to point out is that this list is CLEARLY fake cuz 1. :scovillain: doesn't appear in the list(sure, not a lot of people use, but yeah) and 2(and this is more serious this time) :greninja-ash: is 45ft on the list, and as we ALL know, ash gren is illegal in THIS version of natdex. Now outside of that somehing that DOES get me off a lil bit is :cyclizar:'s position. You would think that with how popular HO is, :cyclizar: would be higher. I also agree with :clodsire: being too high somewhat innacurate. Like, sure, it's a good stopgap bewteen Unaware and Water Absorb, but just like a platapus, it doesn't do much. :charizard-mega-y: is believable being super high, and :kingambit: in particular being 1st also doesn't suprise me either, but I also think it's a overall oppressive mon. Overall, I don't like it.(Mainly cuz :scovillain: ain't up there, but that is just bias.)
 
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