Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[R8]

then there is basically no reason to ban it. "it breaks game mechanics" is dumb in natdex cause you LITERALLY have Icium Z great tusk. Arbitrary is true, but so is the ban of koraidon. Impossible to reproduce ingame, See Trailblaze Heracross mega or Close combat mcham.

National Dex still attempts to work with known game mechanics as much as it can. Icium Z works on great tusk like it worked with any Pokemon before, using a base power table. Megas Pokemon obviously share the same movepool as their base forme, as they basically only are Pokemon holding an item allowing them to change formes. The existence of sleep clause does not find any justification in national dex's identity in any kind of capacity.

Bans are very different from the sleep clause because they literally only are an agreement between players, while sleep clause directly is modifying the mechanics of the game. If there was a National Dex game you could play on on cart, you still couldn't replicate sleep clause through an agreement unless you directly hack the game.

No, and banning sleep thus is irrelevant. why not ban pachirisu by the way? it's niche nuzzle user and voltswitch spammer from lowladd, totally irrelevant at high level, and it being able to use tera blast and a dexit move wrecks the game mechanics. what about raticate? tera normal facade is impossible in game and it should be banned. extend it to other tiers, why should rayquaza mega be able to use U-turn?why do revivecats and teradinja exist? because. natdex. is. fundamentally. not. respecting. ingame. MECHANICS.

Sleep is irrelevant, but the way we are handling sleep is very relevant, and def should be challenged.
-if Pachirisu is not in the main games, it does not learn Tera Blast - this is how movepools works. You can't assume everything learn it either you cannot assume the move would be universal. (And it is not universal anyway - Ditto, Terapagos and Magikarp do not learn it).
-Raticate uses Tera the same ways every pokemon not called Terapagos or Ogerpon does. Of course it involves two elements that never coexisted in an actual Pokemon game - which has to be expected from any kind of legacy format -, however in games mechanics are still used to determine how Raticate is going to use Tera.
-Refer to my previous paragraph @ why M-Ray can use U-Turn.
-Shedinja - same thing than with Raticate.
-Revivecat existed because Revival Blessing literally has the "callable by assist" flag in the game.

Again, unlike the stuff above, Sleep Clause finds no justification in natdex's identity whatsoever. It is not because NatDex isn't replicable on cart that any mod is fair game. Mega-Rayquaza getting U-Turn is absolutely not a reason to keep Sleep Clause.

yes. and it is totally unjustified. No argument is valuable from allof what ive read till now. Darkrai is barely relevant or even viable with hypnosis/Zh sets and imo you can know better than use Z on darkrai except maybe black hole eclipse/ alloutpummeling. sleep clause may be a mod, but if you want to reproduce what in game lets you do, there is regular Anything goes that does it almost perfectly! Tiering policy have no reason to randomly nerf-to-NU stuff like Amoonguss just because John from Nowheretown randomly put an umpteenth "darkrai is broken" post when I doubt it will beat the UU allegations even tho it has been announced as legal dozens of times in important announcements. No team is weak to sleep; all teams are bad payed against sleep. sleep in the form of sing passes substitute, yet just because it skips a check doesnt mean it's broken. sleep clauses is pore of a lwladder regulation, and no high-ground player worries about sleep more than they worry about flinch.

No one in this thread argued that Sleep in its current state is broken. Tiering policy sure has no reason to keep something that goes against its entire philosophy. Amoonguss should not be a reason to mod the game.

ok nice? the code is there, and I see no reason to just delete it so... this discussion should've been brought up during the coding hase of the mod.

This mod was first implemented more than a decade ago lol. It's not because the clause is now implemented that it should stay as is.

I'd argue that modding the game being a horrible way to balance anything ever is a pretty good reason to remove sleep clause, unless you literally have no other options - but fortunately we have one: banning sleep inducing moves.

I know your argument. "sleeep mod is not giving anything to the tier" well, false. the purpose of natdex is to give players more options in the teambuilder. it's not the case of OU. Sleep has done nothing to be banned in natdex. you'd just be preventing the use of amoonguss, even if it is irrelevant.

This is your interpretation of what National Dex is for. NatDex is meant to emulate what the current gen formats could have been if the dexit never happened. This does imply you will have more things to play with, however decisions absolutely do not have to be made with a "keeping as much things as possible" mindset - this is not the point of the tier at all. It is not an "OU with more options" either, as we banned Kingambit and Dragapult while SVOU did not. Also as someone who used Amoonguss both in gen8 and gen9 natdex ou, I can guarantee u that u don't even have to run Spore for it to be effective - I didn't even run it. You don't lose that much by doing so since in gen8 in particular it is used to check Tapu Fini and Tapu Koko, which make their teammates immune to sleep anyway. In my opinion you can get more mileage by running other moves such as Foul Play, Protect (helps to scout choiced stuff, notably Tapu Lele), stomping tantrum (can be considered on certain stall teams that do not want to give Heatran free leftovers turns), or whatever other tech move you could think of. The main selling point with Amoonguss always was the combination of its typing, mixed bulk and regenerator imo, Spore always only was a bonus u could afford to not run.

I believe that if we ban sleep due to it being uncompetitive, we have to ban it entirely including psycho shift + rest and any other niche cases of it. The same way that when we banned trapping, we didnt just ban the most blatant abusers like dugtrio and gothitelle but also diglett, trapinch and gothita, we banned trapping as a whole, including the unused shitmons in LC that cause almost no problems (same as psycho shift rest currently or nature power sleep): I would only support removing sleep clause and banning sleep moves if it includes all of them such as nature power, relic song and rest, along with effect spore for the same reason. If sleep is broken ban it entirely, no move ability or item should be able to inflict the sleep status on any pokemon in the field if sleep is banned imo.

The trapping ban only involved the ban of the two problematics abilities, Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, instead of the list of Pokemon that get these abilities - it was the minimum amount of non complex bans that solves the individual problems.. The immediate problems you will face if you unrestrict sleep entirely are status sleep inducing moves, and are the reason why sleep clause was implemented in the first place: to target these moves in particular. The other sleep inducing mechanics were only collaterals.

You have:
-Direct sleep inducing status moves (Hypnosis, Spore, etc) (Edit: u can make an argument for Yawn to be treated separately too)
-Sleep inducing non-status moves (secret power, relic song, etc)
-Sleep inducing abilities (Only effect spore?)
-Rest + Psycho Shift

I do not believe that, with sleep unrestricted, every way to induce sleep would be a problem - I think it would only be about the direct sleep inducing status moves. You don't have to ban the other ways unless they prove to be a problem down the line - because why would you do that? If you can come up with concrete proof that the other ways are a problem, I'd be more than glad to defend your cause if I am convinced by your arguments, but as it stands right now I am of the opinion it is not a necessary ban, until proven otherwise - which can happen.

TLDR: I personally don't care if sleep in its current state is not broken, and I am not saying that it is. I just disagree with the way sleep is handled, as I think implementing a mod to do that is silly, and is not how any kind of tiering should be done.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

National Dex still attempts to work with known game mechanics as much as it can. Icium Z works on great tusk like it worked with any Pokemon before, using a base power table. Megas Pokemon obviously share the same movepool as their base forme, as they basically only are Pokemon holding an item allowing them to change formes. The existence of sleep clause does not find any justification in national dex's identity in any kind of capacity.

Bans are very different from the sleep clause because they literally only are an agreement between players, while sleep clause directly is modifying the mechanics of the game. If there was a National Dex game you could play on on cart, you still couldn't replicate sleep clause through an agreement unless you directly hack the game.


Sleep is irrelevant, but the way we are handling sleep is very relevant, and def should be challenged.
-if Pachirisu is not in the main games, it does not learn Tera Blast - this is how movepools works. You can't assume everything learn it either you cannot assume the move would be universal. (And it is not universal anyway - Ditto, Terapagos and Magikarp do not learn it).
-Raticate uses Tera the same ways every pokemon not called Terapagos or Ogerpon does. Of course it involves two elements that never coexisted in an actual Pokemon game - which has to be expected from any kind of legacy format -, however in games mechanics are still used to determine how Raticate is going to use Tera.
-Refer to my previous paragraph @ why M-Ray can use U-Turn.
-Shedinja - same thing than with Raticate.
-Revivecat existed because Revival Blessing literally has the "callable by assist" flag in the game.

Again, unlike the stuff above, Sleep Clause finds no justification in natdex's identity whatsoever. It is not because NatDex isn't replicable on cart that any mod is fair game. Mega-Rayquaza getting U-Turn is absolutely not a reason to keep Sleep Clause.


No one in this thread argued that Sleep in its current state is broken. Tiering policy sure has no reason to keep something that goes against its entire philosophy. Amoonguss should not be a reason to mod the game.


This mod was first implemented more than a decade ago lol. It's not because the clause is now implemented that it should stay as is.

I'd argue that modding the game being a horrible way to balance anything ever is a pretty good reason to remove sleep clause, unless you literally have no other options - but fortunately we have one: banning sleep inducing moves.


This is your interpretation of what National Dex is for. NatDex is meant to emulate what the current gen formats could have been if the dexit never happened. This does imply you will have more things to play with, however decisions absolutely do not have to be made with a "keeping as much things as possible" mindset - this is not the point of the tier at all. It is not an "OU with more options" either, as we banned Kingambit and Dragapult while SVOU did not. Also as someone who used Amoonguss both in gen8 and gen9 natdex ou, I can guarantee u that u don't even have to run Spore for it to be effective - I didn't even run it. You don't lose that much by doing so since in gen8 in particular it is used to check Tapu Fini and Tapu Koko, which make their teammates immune to sleep anyway. In my opinion you can get more mileage by running other moves such as Foul Play, Protect (helps to scout choiced stuff, notably Tapu Lele), stomping tantrum (can be considered on certain stall teams that do not want to give Heatran free leftovers turns), or whatever other tech move you could think of. The main selling point with Amoonguss always was the combination of its typing, mixed bulk and regenerator imo, Spore always only was a bonus u could afford to not run.



The trapping ban only involved the ban of the two problematics abilities, Shadow Tag and Arena Trap, instead of the list of Pokemon that get these abilities - it was the minimum amount of non complex bans that solves the individual problems.. The immediate problems you will face if you unrestrict sleep entirely are status sleep inducing moves, and are the reason why sleep clause was implemented in the first place: to target these moves in particular. The other sleep inducing mechanics were only collaterals.

You have:
-Direct sleep inducing status moves (Hypnosis, Spore, etc)
-Sleep inducing non-status moves (secret power, relic song, etc)
-Sleep inducing abilities (Only effect spore?)
-Rest + Psycho Shift

I do not believe that, with sleep unrestricted, every way to induce sleep would be a problem - I think it would only be about the direct sleep inducing status moves. You don't have to ban the other ways unless they prove to be a problem down the line - because why would you do that? If you can come up with concrete proof that the other ways are a problem, I'd be more than glad to defend your cause if I am convinced by your arguments, but as it stands right now I am of the opinion it is not a necessary ban, until proven otherwise - which can happen.

TLDR: I personally don't care if sleep in its current state is not broken, and I am not saying that it is. I just disagree with the way sleep is handled, as I think implementing a mod to do that is silly, and is not how any kind of tiering should be done.

I can totally live without sleep clause, but bot with sleep banned. That is, in fact, the main reason. I know That people Will complain abt sleep and That it'll be annoying and All i just dont want it to go because you guys complaining about mode in a pet mod. How do you handle sleep otherwise Uh?

 

[G-Luke]

I can totally live without sleep clause, but bot with sleep banned. That is, in fact, the main reason. I know That people Will complain abt sleep and That it'll be annoying and All i just dont want it to go because you guys complaining about mode in a pet mod. How do you handle sleep otherwise Uh?

So what's the idea here? You would rather remove sleep mod and play with unrestricted Sleep inducing moves than just blanket ban them? Lol how can I take anything you say seriously in regards to competitive merit, because clearly your not arguing for neither competitiveness nor cartridge accuracy

 

[Patar136]

I'm gonna join this discussion because I think I have some cool perspectives to share.

For one, while I only recently made a Smogon account, and made a showdown account around 2013, I have played Showdown during the late days of DPP onwards through guest accounts (because I didn't want to make actual accounts for some reason.) All of this to say, I have seen my share of metagames and sleep is no exception.

The thing we need to recognize first and foremost is that sleep has had a history of being, well, good to great. Whenever I play RBY, sleep is an essential status condition that is integral to the game. GSC is the same way. In ADV and DPP, sleep can be both very good and just okay. But one thing that is common across these tiers is a general consistency of the setters. RBY has Jynx, Gengar, Exeggutor and even niche stuff like Victreebell, Chansey (when it runs sing), Lapras and Hypno among others. GSC keeps Gengar and eggy while also adding Nidoking and Snorlax to the list of sleepers. ADV gave us Breloom (the first good Spore user) and some other mons, with DPP giving us Roserade and a couple more. Then BW was the generation where sleep was buffed to be effectively a KO due to great users like Breloom and the new Amoonguss. I could go on but hopefully you get the gist. Sleep has been one of the most dominant and useful status conditions to inflict in early generations. And furthermore, sleep clause was enacted when these early generations were among the only ones players had, making sleep more essential to tier around to the point where a mod was enacted when the game itself didn't create a balanced mechanic for sleep.

It would be a very untruthful thing to say that sleep is just this gimmick that we have tried to work around for years like say, Baton Pass, or Arena Trap Dugtrio, where it is more broken than it is worth (with the exception of ADV and even there it sparks controversy on both counts.) Sleep meanwhile has been around for much the same time and many people didn't seem to mind it because sleep clause existed. Had that not existed people would have pretty clearly demanded that it be banned, as is relatively obvious given the common agreement we have on this front.

So what has changed? Why are we suddenly now looking at it more critically? Well, I would argue an essential reason is that sleep is no longer this essential component to the game. It's not like it was back in the glory days because a lot of the sleep inducers have either been nerfed by say Electric Terrain being common (at least historically, with the awareness that this doesn't exist viably in SV OU, but then again we don't have Gholdengo or Kingambit anymore) or by being powder moves and unable to impact grass types, the couple magic bouncers we have in tiers nowadays (especially Nat Dex retaining Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye) or just not being the most viable, with stuff like Hypnosis on Darkrai, Iron Valiant or even Blascephalon (yes this thing learns Hypnosis too.) Furthermore, because of sleep not being an essential status condition people are more aware of its RNG qualities since the sleep inducers are taking control out of either player's hands in most scenarios. Unlike in the older days where there was some skill involved with both using and preventing sleep, here we have this element that comes across as uncompetitive and therefore not something people want to keep, an understandable position.

Which brings another component. This being quite frankly the result of a mod implemented on showdown that doesn't exist in the game. A lot of discussion seems to be on how this is a weird thing to have to mod in since it technically breaks the game and because it is outdated we should drop it. And some arguments also include "Well, who cares if we have had this around for a long time. If it's fundamentally dumb and not something we should have we should alter it." This seems reasonable but again, we need to remember, that sleep users used to be much much stronger and sleep was a much more dramatic element to the game. Can you really imagine RBY or GSC without sleep? It's honestly something that if removed would fundamentally change the way the game is played and you cannot tell me otherwise. Much the same goes for ADV or DPP. BW has some actual precedent because we have seen that BW is actively better for not having sleep around (and we didn't need the evil of Darkrai as proof let me tell you.) This is a better example of how sleep is this broken tool that ruins the gameplay and the competitive experience to the point that even Game Freak, who we can't rely on at all, agreed as being too much and thus something that needed to change. And ever since, sleep has gotten progressively worse bit by bit (assuming we can't just have Amoonguss spore everything in sight.) What does this mean? Well, I would say this. It is entirely reasonable to say that we should get rid of this mechanic because it's a fake mod, but that mod had very real precedent for existing back in the day and people were willing to use it on most cases (Gen V being the exception.) So instead of saying that sleep as a whole is dumb, let's center our discussion on how as of now sleep can be considered dumb.

In conclusion, sleep is a mechanic that has been around for a while and has been seen as an essential component of the game that was allowed to exist as it has thanks to sleep clause. People were willing to play with it back in the day because it was seen as a status condition that was seen as strong but not broken because of sleep clause. And because there is less skill in wielding it now, it's uncompetitiveness is starting to show a bit more than it did in the past. So as such, any decision made needs to take into account the context for sleep itself.

Also side note, banning rest is definitely something that should be happening if we ban sleep. No reason to get cheeky on that front. However, say good bye stall players. Dondozo is effectively killed by this decision and Zamazenta no longer gets to rest either. So enjoy that.

 

[The N@me User]

Also side note, banning rest is definitely something that should be happening if we ban sleep. No reason to get cheeky on that front. However, say good bye stall players. Dondozo is effectively killed by this decision and Zamazenta no longer gets to rest either. So enjoy that.

You and I both know they're going to talk their way out of banning Rest if Sleep does go out the window.

So instead of saying that sleep as a whole is dumb, let's center our discussion on how as of now sleep can be considered dumb.

The problem here is, no one is focused on whether the Sleep Clause is necessary to keep Sleep in check, they just want the Clause gone in general and have already rendered the argument of whether Sleep is unbalanced without it irrelevant.

The argument is being refocused to "Why do we keep the Mod", when the obvious answer is that without it, Sleep would have to be Banned.

Despite what's being said, we're only having this discussion because Darkrai is a good Sleep abuser, and people obviously (justifiably) don't like it. This discussion is being held to, quite obviously, get rid of Sleep. It's not that the "This Mod doesn't make sense" argument isn't valid, it's that people want to stop the good Sleep abusers we have from using the Condition, thus, it is about Banning Sleep, despite the arguments otherwise.¹ If Darkrai keeps using Hypnosis, then the discussion is pointless, this is about Banning Sleep, it's just being suggested via getting rid of Sleep's nerf.¹

I wouldn't be opposed to it gone, discussed fairly, I just think we should be honest about our goal here instead of trying to make it sound like we're "just" undoing the Clause and leaving Sleep alone, because obviously no one wants Sleep without the Sleep Clause intact.

We need to simply:

- Hold a poll for if a Suspect Test should be put in place.

- Hold that Suspect Test, rather than having the decision be made by Council votes.

¹And yes, some legitimately wanted the Clause gone in general and don't care about the Status condition, but given the conversation is only being discussed due to our good abuser/s, that tells us we wouldn't be about to Ban it if it weren't for the underlying motivation of the larger player base wanting Sleep gone.

¹Those that want the Clause removed are two different groups that find an overlap.

 

[R8]

If I may ask a clarification, why should rest be banned? The reason why unrestricted sleep is broken in the first place is because sleeping multiple opposing Pokemon is broken, why should rest be targeted as well?

edit: I meant rest

 

[Patar136]

Banning sleep has some precedent now that doesn't really compare well to other generations.

Take the example of Generation V again. Part of the reason that sleep was so infamous and broken down there were two fold. One, the mechanics of sleep were incredibly punishing. Being put to sleep was effectively a KO and you couldn't just afford to burn turns when there were such offensive threats just roaming around ready to wallbreak at a moment's notice, or set up ungodly amounts of hazards or start stacking boosts. The other reason why sleep was oppressive was because the sleep inducers themselves were really good and were not punished for having a sleep inducing move on their moveset the way say, an Iron Valiant is punished for slotting in Hypnosis. You had both Amoongus and Breloom running around with Spore, you had Yawn on Gastrodon as an option to force switches (and technically Hippowdon), you technically had Venusaur with Sleep Powder before the Chlorophyll ban and niche stuff like Hypnosis on Ninetales, Politoed and Gengar. Sleep was a common status to inflict and the abusers were relatively good to great Pokemon on average so you weren't punished for it. But one of the reasons that sleep was banned wasn't because there was RNG involved but because the strategy itself was hard to prevent, let alone punish. Counterplay was very limited and made you worse against the rest of the metagame.

But Gen V isn't a good example that compares to Gen IX for several reasons. For one, Spore Amoongus isn't that great of a Pokemon even though it has some nice characteristics. And that is a Pokemon that would actually have reason to abuse sleep. Nor are Breloom or Toedscruel even though they also pack spore, with Toedscruel having a host of issues due to not being able to use Spore reliably. The exception seems to be Darkrai who only abuses sleep well because it has an ability that goes with it, not because the move it uses to inflict sleep is reliable, be honest it really isn't. The other abusers of immediate sleep include Iron Valiant and again Blascephalon (both of which need hypnosis and are relatively punished for having to slot that move in when there are better options to slot in on both pokes.) Sure yawn has some good spreaders but Yawn can be played around more easily than direct sleep.

The problem with sleep seems to be this generation having a mechanic that thrives on RNG, being out of control of the player's hands for the most part, since whether you succeed or not is not up to you but because of random luck. Not skill. In previous generations, sleep was used skillfully as a strong but not busted mechanic, until Generation V where it actually became busted, since a team that was good had reasonable means by which to deal with sleep. If that team lost to sleep, it was probably not a good team. Now, a team can be very solid against sleep just by good teambuilding but still lose entirely because of RNG or win because of RNG.

If I may ask a clarification, why should rest be banned? The reason why unrestricted sleep is broken in the first place is because sleeping multiple opposing Pokemon is broken, why should rest be targeted as well?

Really cause of consistency's sake. No Psycho Shift Rest transfer nonsense. But this isn't really a serious point. Stall already is kind of underwhelming at times and cutting out the move that allows Dondozo to function at all would hurt it even more. Like The N@me User the Stall players would rather kiss this tier good bye than allow for this to happen. And it's probably not actually broken. Although Mega Latias or Deoxys defense running this BS strategy is funny to think about.

 

[red fintans]

just gonna mention that sleep clause appeared in an official pokemon spinoff which is probably where the idea to implement it here came from in the first place (pkmn stadium)

 

[Patar136]

TLDR: I personally don't care if sleep in its current state is not broken, and I am not saying that it is. I just disagree with the way sleep is handled, as I think implementing a mod to do that is silly, and is not how any kind of tiering should be done.

The mechanic being somehow bad because it's a mod doesn't really work for me. It doesn't across as a very good argument. Because sleep was something that we wanted to keep around because it actually contributes to the game at times when used this way. Much like say, paralysis, sleep is a good way to slow something down or force it to halt its offensive momentum. Something like an Amnesia Snorlax in Gen I doesn't just get to boost up and win on the spot because sleep is one of the methods by which you can halt it in its tracks. Same goes for something like, I dunno, a Curse Machamp or a Growth Vaporeon in GSC? A Dragon Dance Tyranitar getting punished by Yawn Snorlax? These are tactics that can help various Pokemon keep up with threats.

What people should be saying is that sleep is this uncompetitive RNG element that doesn't contribute to a metagame's stability. And that it should just be banned for those reasons. Not because we have a sleep clause implemented into the game. And as pointed out, Pokemon Stadium, a spin off game, did include this clause and people seem to react just fine. Think also of the idea that what happens here can bleed over into other discussions.

Banning sleep here is one thing. Banning sleep in older generations or lower tiers, where these strategies are more common, is another.

 

[Wriothesley<3]

just gonna mention that sleep clause appeared in an official pokemon spinoff which is probably where the idea to implement it here came from in the first place (pkmn stadium)

(Bold = Highlight)
Hi. Random person joining convo here, I would just like to say that, that is probably one of the reasons why some people want sleep clause removed, since it is from a spin-off game and has no appearance in any mainline games. But then again, pokemon stadium can be used for competitive but I dun'no I'm just a person.

Edit: I forgot to bold the highlightl lol

 

[Patar136]

The arguments for axing sleep don't seem good at all. I'm not even against axing sleep, but people are saying dumb things like "sleep clause is old" and therefore it's bad. Like, no. that is a terrible argument.

It's old because it worked. Because it did it's job. If you were to say that sleep isn't needed anymore, and that it adds extra RNG, than sure lets get rid of it. But people are saying stupid things like "sleep clause is this archaic mechanic that didn't even work" completely ignoring the positive qualities it brought, but no longer brings.

Ban sleep for actual good reasons. The people who want sleep gone are not doing a good job presenting their case.

 

[The N@me User]

And as pointed out, Pokemon Stadium, a spin off game, did include this clause and people seem to react just fine. Think also of the idea that what happens here can bleed over into other discussions.

just gonna mention that sleep clause appeared in an official pokemon spinoff which is probably where the idea to implement it here came from in the first place (pkmn stadium)

Just going to point out, that in addition to this, altering the Sleep Mod to only allowing clicking a Sleep move when all opposing Pokémon are awake on the field is also a "replicatable in the game" alternative to Pokémon Stadium's Clause that's been used, since just as players can share each other's HP with each other, players can also agree to not click a Sleeping move if a Pokémon is already asleep.

Now, this would alter it in that you can't predict a Pokémon to wake up and Sleep them on the same turn, but it solves the "This Mod isn't possible in the game" issue, despite making Sleep slightly weaker.

I think the Clause is fine as it is if we do keep it, but I bring this up to point out that even that argument isn't the strongest to remove the Mod if we're allowing HP to be shown in percentages and such.

Banning sleep here is one thing. Banning sleep in older generations or lower tiers, where these strategies are more common, is another.

I originally assumed this would be the case, but this should be what happens if we do end up removing the Mod, imo. Those that play past Gens should be able to argue their case, as BW players did with Gen V's Sleep Clause removal.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

So what's the idea here? You would rather remove sleep mod and play with unrestricted Sleep inducing moves than just blanket ban them? Lol how can I take anything you say seriously in regards to competitive merit, because clearly your not arguing for neither competitiveness nor cartridge accuracy

sleep, even unrestricted, is unviable. sleep mechanics are not the same since it got banned and imo :

IF The sleep inducer is slower. 97% Of The time sleeo inducers are passive and arent setup sweepers, breloom being The exception but being a generally bad pokemon, Very much handleable If you have any form of speed control. Then If The oppo wants to abuse of sleep, it'll have to switch and you are likely to wake up by The time The oppo has The Idea of setup-ing.
IF The sleep inducer is faster. The turn you fall asleep counts as a full turn cause The mechanics are double-centered (in doubles an Other action can happen before The end of The said turn; a turn is spent) because of The sleep nerf, you can, For example, switch out and wake up If you soient The turns. another situation is not to switch out. that's why sleep is unviable. If you Don't switch out. You could use a speed-increasing move and then outspeed The inducer and kill it. sleep clause deletion won't make sleep banned.

IMO before arguing on banning sleep, lET a week ir tWO of pseudo-chaos before deciding of a SUSPECT TEST.

Ban sleep inducing moves and ban rest cause anyways isn't rest a sleep inducing move? If You ban a broken pokemon, You ban All sets, not just The common broken one(you can't play koraidon even with tera blast flamethrower draco meteor and focus blast and holding leppa berry cause it's koraidon).

And yes, some legitimately wanted the Clause gone in general and don't care about the Status condition, but given the conversation is only being discussed due to our good abuser/s

Who? Name any Good sleep abuser. thinking about it made me realize the clause is giving Nothing to The tier cause sleep is lame anyways. sleep multiple of The opponents pokemon is neat, you'd 100% prefer a full paralysis: not only is it more accurate, less restricting, more viable, definitive, more decisive, but it Also gives speed control, psychological advantage, and btw IF The sleep kept The LPA mechanics, THEN it would be banworthy: paralysis but DEFENSES are halved. Bru What? If it was gen V sleep ok, but sleep in its actual state? Nope. Let me show you smthing neat. Couples both move-restricting and free turns:
In Gen 9, Jirachi can learn Encore from:
anywhere (move is level-up/tutor/TM/HM/egg in Gen 9) now you can Encore something setup-ing, and flinch attacking, and when Encored, YOU CAN SWITCH and have 2 free turns 100% or even better,
In Gen 9, Iron Valiant can learn Encore from:
anywhere (move is level-up/tutor/TM/HM/egg in Gen 9) Now you outspeed on kokoterrain, have 3 free turns and Most of All, SETUP YOURSELF on the encored pokémon. Wait? It already exists? SO WHY AM READING HYPNOSIS VALIANT?
sleep clause is alright, unneeded, even tho it's sure a way to make sleep more handleabe, not that It isn't otherwise. We CAN reproduce It ingame like the hp percentage mod, as patar136 said, via an accord between players to click sleep moves only If All opponents are awake. It would just kinda nerf It a bit, but anyways why play sleep in a meta where you can play Swords dance/Calm mind +encore Iron val. anyways I didn't read all messages as I was writing this one between classes but Im sure it's accurate

 

[R8]

Will probably go over some other points when I get more time later but there are two things I wanted to address right quick:

Really cause of consistency's sake. No Psycho Shift Rest transfer nonsense. But this isn't really a serious point. Stall already is kind of underwhelming at times and cutting out the move that allows Dondozo to function at all would hurt it even more. Like The N@me User the Stall players would rather kiss this tier good bye than allow for this to happen. And it's probably not actually broken. Although Mega Latias or Deoxys defense running this BS strategy is funny to think about.

Honestly I think it should be free at first, if a sleep moves ban goes through, as psycho shift + rest inherently requires more conditions to be pulled off, on top of requiring much more moveslots, than sleep inducing status moves. Consistency is not an argument here imo as we are talking about two very clearly different things. If Psycho Shift nonsense proves to be a problem, then sure action should be taken (either on psycho shift or rest), but not beforehand - BWOU kept psychoshift+rest legal after the sleep ban and never was an issue, so there is solid precedent (from an official tier!) to at least think it should not be nuked based off theorymoning.

I also do not think it is fair to make a trial of intent on people before they even had the chance to argue against your point lol, people can have actual, genuine reasons to disagree with you. Arguing that people would want to keep Sleep Clause because there is some Amoonguss fans clique wanting to preserve their favorite pokemon would be equally disingenuous. Argue with people against the arguments they are actually using, not the scarecrow you portray them to be.

sleep, even unrestricted, is unviable.

This is just completely wrong, it is literally one of the most broken mechanics available in the game. Fucking Vivillion, a quad weak rocks Pokemon that never was higher than NU in every gen it existed, had niches in Anything Goes just with its quiver dance + sleep powder sets. If you want to argue that unrestricted sleep is fair game (or even unviable) then you basically are asking for the removal of the sleep clause, which at least removes the mod from the game lol

 

[Kyo]

The arguments for axing sleep don't seem good at all. I'm not even against axing sleep, but people are saying dumb things like "sleep clause is old" and therefore it's bad. Like, no. that is a terrible argument.

It's old because it worked. Because it did it's job. If you were to say that sleep isn't needed anymore, and that it adds extra RNG, than sure lets get rid of it. But people are saying stupid things like "sleep clause is this archaic mechanic that didn't even work" completely ignoring the positive qualities it brought, but no longer brings.

Ban sleep for actual good reasons. The people who want sleep gone are not doing a good job presenting their case.

What is the argument here? You either typed this on your phone in 2 minutes tops or you're being intentionally disingenuous about the point of removing sleep clause and I certainly hope it's the former. Sleep clause isn't bad because it's "old" and nobody is claiming that whatsoever. Sleep clause is bad because it's just blatantly incorrect application of tiering policy and stands at odds with pretty much any modern tiering decision. Whether or not that stems from sleep clause being introduced so long ago when tiering rules were a bit more flexible (read: sleep clause is old) is up to you to decide for yourself and holds no relevancy to this discussion other than providing context for how a straight up game-modifying clause was allowed to make its way into the standard/official ruleset in the first place. Sleep clause would be equally bad tiering if it was introduced today or 15 years ago, so please don't minimize arguments to a 4-word quote that doesn't actually quote the arguments of anyone in this thread.

Also, since I saw paralysis discussion for some reason, I have the great opportunity to draw a comparison here. Imagine if paralysis was truly broken, and the way we decided to deal with it was by limiting it to only two pokemon allowed to be paralyzed per game or by only allowing 10 full paras per game or whatever other completely arbitrary restriction. That would feel... kind of absurd wouldn't it? Surely we would just ban paralysis rather than taking a hacksaw to the game's mechanics. This is what sleep clause does. The interactions that occur with sleep clause cannot be replicated on cartridge in any capacity and exist in every tier with sleep clause; it's not just some weird NatDex-specific case. If we have the opportunity to rectify this on a broader scale (as in Smogon tiers as a whole are going to correct sleep clause) then I absolutely think we should take that opportunity.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Niche in ag for qd and sleep pow. Well do you mean it'll be A tier in natdex for that? Sure it is the best form of abusing sleep, but just Look At vivillon. And then Look At, idk, gouging fire. I hope that, as the tier leader, you see even a bit of difference. vivillon is slow comparer to AG stuff (mostly 90 speed lads) where itd be outclassed by vd liligant h, itself worn off by valiant If you know How to play against it. Ok by unviable ivmeant spore, but just do you know
That
In the tier
There is
Such thing as
Taunt Koko? Taunt offensive pokemon, Other than being Really worth It, kinda invalidates the setup sleep stuff. vivillon is a good example, sure, you got a point, but have you thought about the lack of coverage, physical bulk, reliability of vivillon? VIVILLON? ok taunt doesnt fit in every archetype. Sowhat? Change team. it'll be a new meta.

What is the argument here? You either typed this on your phone in 2 minutes tops or you're being intentionally disingenuous about the point of removing sleep clause and I certainly hope it's the former. Sleep clause isn't bad because it's "old" and nobody is claiming that whatsoever. Sleep clause is bad because it's just blatantly incorrect application of tiering policy and stands at odds with pretty much any modern tiering decision. Whether or not that stems from sleep clause being introduced so long ago when tiering rules were a bit more flexible (read: sleep clause is old) is up to you to decide for yourself and holds no relevancy to this discussion other than providing context for how a straight up game-modifying clause was allowed to make its way into the standard/official ruleset in the first place. Sleep clause would be equally bad tiering if it was introduced today or 15 years ago, so please don't minimize arguments to a 4-word quote that doesn't actually quote the arguments of anyone in this thread.

Also, since I saw paralysis discussion for some reason, I have the great opportunity to draw a comparison here. Imagine if paralysis was truly broken, and the way we decided to deal with it was by limiting it to only two pokemon allowed to be paralyzed per game or by only allowing 10 full paras per game or whatever other completely arbitrary restriction. That would feel... kind of absurd wouldn't it? Surely we would just ban paralysis rather than taking a hacksaw to the game's mechanics. This is what sleep clause does. The interactions that occur with sleep clause cannot be replicated on cartridge in any capacity and exist in every tier with sleep clause; it's not just some weird NatDex-specific case. If we have the opportunity to rectify this on a broader scale (as in Smogon tiers as a whole are going to correct sleep clause) then I absolutely think we should take that opportunity.

So what's the idea here? You would rather remove sleep mod and play with unrestricted Sleep inducing moves than just blanket ban them? Lol how can I take anything you say seriously in regards to competitive merit, because clearly your not arguing for neither competitiveness nor cartridge accuracy

Sooo all agree that sleep clause does its Job just fine. All know that sleep right now is alright, but some people that didn't even bouche the game just want to fight anyways, All know that sleep isn't broken, All know that the reason of this discussion is totally arbitrary. Altho the meta Will have to adapt, leave ONE WEEK And you'll see that sleep is not that relevant. The lack of acvuracy of The moves, The power of grass And terrain, The lack of accuracy So, the only argument of banning sleep is:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

sleep clause isn't reproduceable on cartridge.

HOW. MEANINGLESS. IS THAT.
I could Give a lonnng list of what's wrong with this argument. Bru natdex autorizes trailblaze heracross mega but obviously Because of the obviousness of the fact there can't be such thing as wish+teleport blissey.
(ノ｀⊿´)ノnonsense.
Define reproduceable on cartridge, cause my switch can play pokemon stadium, IN WHICH THERE IS A SLEEP CLAUSE.


The solution to this would be to change sleep clause So it's reproduceable on cartridge. Done. And nO, you just dont bRING arguments against that.

 

[Sami]

Super off-topic to whatever is being argued here but has Temper Flare on seen any success? I know and aren't very common, and is banned, but is it worth running over other moves like Knock Off or Ice Spinner?

 

[seth]

In the ever-evolving landscape of competitive Pokémon battles, it's crucial to reevaluate established rules to ensure a dynamic and engaging experience for players. One such hotly contested rule, the Sleep Clause, has been a staple for maintaining balance, but with all the debate surrounding it recently, I believe it's time we reconsider its place in Gen9 NatDex which is why I'm making this post today.


Game Dynamics: To begin with, the removal of the Sleep Clause can lead to more unpredictable and exciting battles. Sleep is a strategic element that adds an extra layer of complexity, forcing players to make critical decisions regarding when and how to use sleep-inducing moves. Without the Sleep Clause, battles could become more dynamic and less predictable.


Adaptability: Our competitive scene thrives on adaptability, and removing the Sleep Clause allows players to explore diverse strategies. Sleep-based moves become high-risk, high-reward choices, encouraging creative team building and fostering a richer metagame. The absence of the Sleep Clause promotes adaptability, encouraging trainers to think on their feet and strategize effectively.


Skill Expression: By removing the Sleep Clause, battles may become a more accurate reflection of a player's skill. Success in dealing with sleep-inducing moves would be contingent on effective prediction, switch-ins, and counter-play. This shift places a greater emphasis on the trainer's skill, encouraging a more skillful and less restrictive metagame.


Diversity in Pokémon Choices: Sleep-inducing moves can be a valuable tool for certain Pokémon, and removing the Sleep Clause opens up opportunities for previously overlooked Pokémon to shine, such as the aforementioned Vivillion. This, in turn, increases diversity in team composition and can rejuvenate the metagame, making it more exciting for both players and spectators.


In conclusion, while the Sleep Clause has served as a stabilizing force in competitive Pokémon battles, its removal could bring about a positive transformation in the Generation 9 National Dex metagame on Pokémon Showdown. Embracing change and reevaluating established rules is essential for the growth and evolution of the competitive Pokémon community. Thank you all for your time.

 

[adem]

Super off-topic to whatever is being argued here but has Temper Flare on seen any success? I know and aren't very common, and is banned, but is it worth running over other moves like Knock Off or Ice Spinner?

knock is also quite bad, but cc hits those mons significantly harder than flare anyways, and dropping spinner is possibly the worst thing you can do if your using tusk

 

[Patar136]

You know you're not gonna convince people to drop sleep clause because it's something that isn't reproducible on cartridge (besides the example of Stadium which some people don't wanna give credit to that nostalgic classic). It provided a very valuable function, enabling sleep without sleep being broken. Sleep was one the mechanics that helped the meta game stay balanced and fair a lot of the time. You slow things down like say, Paralysis, except unlike paralysis being an RNG fest where sometimes you get to attack and sometimes you don't, sleep is a mechanic that deliberately slows down the pace of the game.

The problem that seems to be apparent now is that this balancing feature is no longer necessary and that sleep is unfortunately a disruptive element of the game that isn't being used skillfully because whether the best abuser of sleep in question, mostly Darkrai, is able to land the move depends on a roll of 60%. Not that great of a measure.

Remove sleep for the sake of it being uncompetitive. Not because of being "ashamed" of past tiering policy, as if we are enlightened gods while the past was full of idiotic morons.

 

[themonkeydidit]

In Gen 9, Jirachi can learn Encore from:
anywhere (move is level-up/tutor/TM/HM/egg in Gen 9) now you can Encore something setup-ing, and flinch attacking, and when Encored, YOU CAN SWITCH and have 2 free turns 100% or even better,
In Gen 9, Iron Valiant can learn Encore from:
anywhere (move is level-up/tutor/TM/HM/egg in Gen 9) Now you outspeed on kokoterrain, have 3 free turns and Most of All, SETUP YOURSELF on the encored pokémon. Wait? It already exists? SO WHY AM READING HYPNOSIS VALIANT?

Comparing encore to sleep is so disingenuous lol...encore requires the opponent to not have clicked a move that hits you hard & be slower. They can switch out and switch back in without the encore staying, and if they're setup + z they can just z move you.

do you know
That
In the tier
There is
Such thing as
Taunt Koko? Taunt offensive pokemon, Other than being Really worth It, kinda invalidates the setup sleep stuff. vivillon is a good example, sure, you got a point, but have you thought about the lack of coverage, physical bulk, reliability of vivillon? VIVILLON? ok taunt doesnt fit in every archetype. Sowhat? Change team. it'll be a new meta.

Ah yes, koko, which gets OHKO'd by the main sleep user in the tier, meaning you can never actually switch into it. (you didn't mention Darkrai a single time which leads me to believe you don't actually play the tier)
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 333-393 (118.5 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm not for or against removing sleep clause (other than obviously being against unrestricted sleep), but maybe make sure your arguments actually hold water before posting.

I will say though, that I think the 'sleep clause can't be replicated on cartridge' argument is also disingenuous. A lot of things in nat dex can't be done on cartridge, that's the whole point. There's no game where you can have a mon with HP and tera blast, or use Hydrapple with a Z move. If people think sleep is uncompetitive that's fine, I don't necessarily disagree, but saying something shouldn't exist because it can't be done on cartridge, in Nat Dex, seems silly.

Edit: re-read Kyo's post and I get the reasoning, ignore that last bit

 

[R8]

Niche in ag for qd and sleep pow. Well do you mean it'll be A tier in natdex for that? Sure it is the best form of abusing sleep, but just Look At vivillon. And then Look At, idk, gouging fire. I hope that, as the tier leader, you see even a bit of difference. vivillon is slow comparer to AG stuff (mostly 90 speed lads) where itd be outclassed by vd liligant h, itself worn off by valiant If you know How to play against it. Ok by unviable ivmeant spore, but just do you know
That
In the tier
There is
Such thing as
Taunt Koko? Taunt offensive pokemon, Other than being Really worth It, kinda invalidates the setup sleep stuff. vivillon is a good example, sure, you got a point, but have you thought about the lack of coverage, physical bulk, reliability of vivillon? VIVILLON? ok taunt doesnt fit in every archetype. Sowhat? Change team. it'll be a new meta.

It is still such a specific thing to run vivillion, and as it stands right now the set is really only used on screens, where it usually doesn't even run tbolt or roost lol. If you have to run taunt koko or fini in every team only to deal with vivillion it is actually a proof that the mechanic is dumb ; you did mention that vd lilligant would be probable competition and if anything that just reminds us that sleep powder vd lilligant would be ridiculous to deal with sleep powder+vd sets, especially since the mon already just sends koko and fini to hell after a victory dance. Amoonguss itself just straight up wall most sleep immunities, and Tapu Fini/Tapu Koko cannot try to set terrain against it in fear of taking a sludge bomb. In theory unrestricted sleep abusers would have answers but they are all either too specific if not straight up inconsistent at actually dealing with sleep, or just horrible things to run in general.

It will definitively not be ok to allow Iron Valiant or whatever other offensive sleeper to have a chance to win on the spot because they are lucky enough to hit multiple Hypnosis. This entire paragraph is just a "just adapt" argument that just straight up ignores what teambuilding actually entails.

Sooo all agree that sleep clause does its Job just fine. All know that sleep right now is alright, but some people that didn't even bouche the game just want to fight anyways, All know that sleep isn't broken, All know that the reason of this discussion is totally arbitrary. Altho the meta Will have to adapt, leave ONE WEEK And you'll see that sleep is not that relevant. The lack of acvuracy of The moves, The power of grass And terrain, The lack of accuracy So, the only argument of banning sleep is:

I'm ngl u should have some respect to the pple that make the effort to respond to your posts instead of going to that kind of tangents lol. I'll be honest if you come to the point you just randomly call out people for not playing the game on the basis of literally nothing it just is going to discredit your own post as you just are throwing a baseless ad hominem conjecture. Rejecting a legitimate discussion on the basis it is "arbitrary", whatever that means, is equally ridiculous. If you are dead set on not wanting to wanting to have any kind of constructive conversation on the topic I just suggest you to stop posting because this will not go anywhere.

Sleep moves being inaccurate certainly do not help make them less dumb if unrestricted. If you have to rely on them missing to beat their strategy, it is very much a sign it induces a very dumb dynamic to the game. OHKO moves have terrible accuracy and at least 1 type is immune to each of them, on top of sturdy Pokemon. It does not make them balanced in any sort of capacity.

HOW. MEANINGLESS. IS THAT.
I could Give a lonnng list of what's wrong with this argument. Bru natdex autorizes trailblaze heracross mega but obviously Because of the obviousness of the fact there can't be such thing as wish+teleport blissey.
(ノ｀⊿´)ノnonsense.

I already went over that but let's try again: everything that exists in National Dex format is a consequence of at least a combination of things that actually existed ; Trailblaze Mega-Heracross is literally just a Heracross you give an heracronite to. Z-moves whatever just follow the same base power table that was applied to every move. And so on. The fundamental difference is that Sleep Clause existing is not a consequence of National Dex's identity, and thus is not a consequence of any cartridge mechanic relevant to National dex.

Define reproduceable on cartridge, cause my switch can play pokemon stadium, IN WHICH THERE IS A SLEEP CLAUSE.

Stadium battle mechanics is not relevant to National Dex in any sort of capacity. Read this post.

The solution to this would be to change sleep clause So it's reproduceable on cartridge. Done. And nO, you just dont bRING arguments against that.

I'll be honest I wouldn't be opposed to a grey button clause is that's what people want, but imo at this point just ban sleep moves lol, that's how tiering should be done in the first place.

You know you're not gonna convince people to drop sleep clause because it's something that isn't reproducible on cartridge (besides the example of Stadium which some people don't wanna give credit to that nostalgic classic). It provided a very valuable function, enabling sleep without sleep being broken. Sleep was one the mechanics that helped the meta game stay balanced and fair a lot of the time. You slow things down like say, Paralysis, except unlike paralysis being an RNG fest where sometimes you get to attack and sometimes you don't, sleep is a mechanic that deliberately slows down the pace of the game.

The problem that seems to be apparent now is that this balancing feature is no longer necessary and that sleep is unfortunately a disruptive element of the game that isn't being used skillfully because whether the best abuser of sleep in question, mostly Darkrai, is able to land the move depends on a roll of 60%. Not that great of a measure.

Remove sleep for the sake of it being uncompetitive. Not because of being "ashamed" of past tiering policy, as if we are enlightened gods while the past was full of idiotic morons.

Regardless if we agree on doing the same thing, even if we don't agree on the reasons, I don't think there is much point arguing further - let's just do it. To me the fact this thing is a mod is enough reason for me to want to nuke it ; I understand you disagree with this, but if you still agree to remove the clause to have a sleep ban instead, then I'm not really sure why we are still arguing?

Also to make it clear it was definitively not my intent to shit on the past. I understand why the mod was implemented in the first place ; but I think keeping it in the current gen formats is still a bad choice. I think there could have been better ways to preserve sleep as well but this is not really something relevant to this thread.

I will say though, that I think the 'sleep clause can't be replicated on cartridge' argument is also disingenuous. A lot of things in nat dex can't be done on cartridge, that's the whole point. There's no game where you can have a mon with HP and tera blast, or use Hydrapple with a Z move. If people think sleep is uncompetitive that's fine, I don't necessarily disagree, but saying something shouldn't exist because it can't be done on cartridge, in Nat Dex, seems silly.

Again, NatDex still attempts to follow cartridge mechanics to define its own mechanics: Z-moves for example are still using the same base power table that existed in gen7. Of course there are elements in this format that never interacted in an actual game, but, when possible, natdex mechanics are taken from actual cartridge mechanics. The thing is that Sleep Clause is not a consequence of National Dex's identity, nor any kind of mechanic coming from a game relevant to National Dex.

 

[Patar136]

Regardless if we agree on doing the same thing, even if we don't agree on the reasons, I don't think there is much point arguing further - let's just do it. To me the fact this thing is a mod is enough reason for me to want to nuke it ; I understand you disagree with this, but if you still agree to remove the clause to have a sleep ban instead, then I'm not really sure why we are still arguing?

We do agree at the end of the day. We both think sleep can be removed from the tier without severe loss. For you, it's because it's a mod first and foremost that you don't like because it's technically not real, the game (besides the awesome Pokemon Stadium) doesn't implement a sleep clause. For me, it's because it's pretty much entirely RNG as to whether or not it works since the abusers involved are just hoping it works without skillfully aiming to make it work. The reason I am getting involved with this discussion is to give you an additional, arguably more important, reason to ban sleep in Nat Dex, at least as far as Gen IX is concerned. Gen X, XI and so on we can deal with as the issue arises.

People will lambast this decision if the reasoning is not solid. Uncompetitiveness is a a documented reason to ban things, as are elements where counterplay does not exist and when control is taken out of the player's hands. The latter reason especially should be what is highlighted.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

So ... Sleep clause
The only real reason I would be apposed to a sleep ban is because of rest, however if we make an exception for rest I definitely agree with a sleep ban.
Sleep has become increasingly problematic with things like Darkrai and really doesn't contribute too much... Besides annoying the shit out of me.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Post

Super off-topic to whatever is being argued here but has Temper Flare on seen any success? I know and aren't very common, and is banned, but is it worth running over other moves like Knock Off or Ice Spinner?

just to get post 1000 no lol knock doodoo and tusk need spinner knock doesn't hit much of anything helpful