Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[FayaWizard]

Whenever I think SV OU metagame discussion is bad I look at ND metagame discussion and then feel a little better. The amount of bait y'all falling for would make fishermen jealous.

Anyways, we should look into suspecting Dragapult next. Solid variety of sets between Status, Specs, and Dragon Dance, giving Dragapult the ability to cripple all of checks (mainly Kingambit), and Clear Body allows it to shit all over Landorus-T. Beyond being a Wellspring check, I don't really see how it's helping the tier in any way.

 

[SBMalus]

Whenever I think SV OU metagame discussion is bad I look at ND metagame discussion and then feel a little better. The amount of bait y'all falling for would make fishermen jealous.

Anyways, we should look into suspecting Dragapult next. Solid variety of sets between Status, Specs, and Dragon Dance, giving Dragapult the ability to cripple all of checks (mainly Kingambit), and Clear Body allows it to shit all over Landorus-T. Beyond being a Wellspring check, I don't really see how it's helping the tier in any way.

I think it deserves a look, but I would definitely miss Inflitrator + Wisp to make Zama users cry :(

 

[Toxic Ariados]

Whenever I think SV OU metagame discussion is bad I look at ND metagame discussion and then feel a little better. The amount of bait y'all falling for would make fishermen jealous.

Anyways, we should look into suspecting Dragapult next. Solid variety of sets between Status, Specs, and Dragon Dance, giving Dragapult the ability to cripple all of checks (mainly Kingambit), and Clear Body allows it to shit all over Landorus-T. Beyond being a Wellspring check, I don't really see how it's helping the tier in any way.

Don't worry, the National Dex discussion thread is very sane, I swear! There's just a very... vocal minority to say the least. We aren't insane, yet. Just wait until someone asks for a Zacian Crowned suspect test.

Anyways, Dragapult is definitely an interesting case for me. I don't know what I would vote on it once the suspect test comes. The Ghost Z set is pretty difficult to deal with, and it'll always wisp your counters to get the last laugh. I don't want to run a Pursuit Kingambit or Tapu Fini on every team just to consistently check it. Dragapult wasn't designed to interact with Z Moves, and mixing them together created this pretty brutal set. Of course there's also the Hex-o-Wisp set and stuff like Specs. Dragapult has excellent versatility, it can very easily not be a physical set and throw you off when you send in your Alomomola or something. Dragapult is fairly restrictive but it also provides a lot of utility as a spin blocker and pivot. I can't figure out what I would vote if I got requirements for a Dragapult test.

 

[Comett7778]

I personally feel pretty mixed on Pult. Its DD sets are incredibly annoying and very threatening, but do suffer against mons like Gambit or T-Tar. Hell even Iron Valiant can lives +1 phantom force so if you waste the Z you can ko with that. Honestly if you waist the Z set up pult is usually done for. Its set variety is a bit nuts as it just has so many options and tools. Pult feels amazing to use without being too bad to play against(thank you pursuit). Its role compression helps with team building helps a lot. I wouldn’t be upset to see a Pult suspect, but would need to think about if I believe it should be banned or unbanned.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

feigning not even having the cursory background knowledge to know who he is NOR the tehcnical aptitude to look up "ben shapiro" on google.com is actually a new low

yk what you got it brotha he's just a figure eternally shrouded in mystery lost to the annals of time there is no conceivable way you could discover this groundbreaking knowledge

That Might, Might have to do with the fact that I'm not american. Like yea tell me who tf is Bruno Retailleau. Besides, tf did I do to you? Hate on the internet is so free nah.


Ban Pult, Overqwil is Goated

 

[Heatranator]

Whenever I think SV OU metagame discussion is bad I look at ND metagame discussion and then feel a little better. The amount of bait y'all falling for would make fishermen jealous.

Anyways, we should look into suspecting Dragapult next. Solid variety of sets between Status, Specs, and Dragon Dance, giving Dragapult the ability to cripple all of checks (mainly Kingambit), and Clear Body allows it to shit all over Landorus-T. Beyond being a Wellspring check, I don't really see how it's helping the tier in any way.

Yeah, ngl, pult needs to go. If you don't use m-ttar or kingambit (both of which hate being burned), then you are probably are going to get fucked by it. It forces defensive teams to play a little song and dance whenever it hits the field, as not only do you have to guess which set it is, but if you get it wrong you probably are losing one pokemon minimum. If we ban dragapult, it also means we can maybe look at gambit, which is enabling the horrendous yard+gambit core which stifles bulkier teams. In general, I've found bulkier teams to be hella inconsistent as they can't account for everything in the tier, and banning pult is the first step to making them better.

 

[Moisture99]

Kingambit is both way too heavily targeted by the meta and has weaknesses too exploitable to be broken. Zard y is overrated ngl the teams crumble to too many things on the defensive side. Pex (insane mon, way better than mola) and moltres should never get pursuit trapped unless ur reckless while gambit doesn't even truly pursuit trap the latis or really win the 1v1 lol.

Dragapult suspect is inevitable but i will vote dnb because it is more of an on paper and skill check mon than anything banworthy, while wisp sets are annoying and very good but simply not broken in any sense. People r also underselling how bad being pursuited is lol, idc if my gambit or tar gets burned ur literally losing a mon + i can still knock off your items. It also keeps a lot of stuff like waterpon and zama in check while being by far the most splashable speed control so saying it adds no value is nonsense

glad roaring moon got unbanned, most ban arguments weren't strong and it credibly improves the metagame

 

[Karmazz]

Could a clause limiting Z-moves only to mons that can use them in game be considered? It’s similar to how mons after gen 7 can’t use hidden power in natdex despite it being a universal tm. New pokemon are designed around not having access to these removed things. I guarantee you regieleki and spectrier/caly-s would not be so minmaxxed if they could solve their nonexistent coverage with hidden power. Likewise, pult was clearly designed around not having access to a strong physical ghost move considering gamefreak didn’t give their strong new physical ghost move to their shiny new ghost pseudo.

Yes, this is mostly about pult. While I wouldn’t mind a ban, Z-ghost is the main thing pushing it over the edge for me. A move that strong, of that type, coming off that attack and speed stat, on a mon with so many other good buttons and sets, is ridiculous. Why does ridiculous have an i in the first vowel.

Although I personally don’t like them, I don’t think Z moves should be completely banned because they’re pretty objectively not broken and are rarely the thing that causes other mons to be broken. Pult is the exception.

Also it just makes sense. Z moves are moves the pokemon can never use, and items the pokemon can never hold. A cool potential side affect could be giving old outclassed mons use cases if their replacement is from post gen 7.

Sorry if this has really been discussed before, I only started following this thread relatively recently.

 

[ant4456]

I'm not a fan of Dragapult but honestly don't really find it to be overbearing.

I would support a Kingambit suspect, I dislike Pursuit + Knock + Sucker set in terms of how unreliable it can be to check at times. I also dislike Pursuit generally, which I know is something most don't agree with and that's fine, but I find Mega Tyranitar's pursuit to be less of a problem than Gambit. I don't like how uninteractive it is. In this tier, there are so many easy ways to set hazards and you can sack Gholdengo to keep them up at worst, I don't like a Pokemon that can click Knock Off so easily and not really have Pokemon that can consistently do the job. Even if you switch Moltres in to burn it, now you've lost your HDB and Moltres is kinda ass for the rest of the game, since it's one of those Pokemon that find a way to take 30% damage from basically everything. I don't like how Kingambit supports Sun archetypes, checking several Pokemon that can be very helpful to checking the archetype otherwise; they *can* do their job with it around, but it's severely limited and I don't like it.

I'm not gonna be upset if Kingambit doesn't go, but I think people just say "Kingambit is such a good glue I love it" while IMO it is a problematic Pokemon in its own right. People are so focused on how it Pursuit traps Dragapult and how that's based, and I really don't care for it. Then, going a step forward and being like "wow it wisped my Gambit" is a "lost the plot" moment in my opinion, like yeah no shit Pursuit trapping forces this Pokemon to basically either U-Turn bot or Wisp to not instantly die to 80% of teams.

 

[SHOSPLE COLUPIS]

I don't think Dragapult is banworthy in the slightest.
DDance gets shit on by literally everything once it uses up that Z move (which is easy to predict)
Wisphex is the best set but also it doesn't do anything overpowered and cant sweep teams
Specs is a meme.

None of these seem to be OP to the point of being banworthy, and even if you have to find out which it is, usually you can tell based on other mons around it.

 

[Patar136]

I am actually gonna support a disdain for Z moves. I think that it wouldn't hurt as much as people claim if we banned them. Heck, failing that, just saying new Pokemon can't get them. That doesn't bother me at all. But I bet it probably bother's somebody so don't lose your shit for this opinion I have.

 

[Ch0ppas]

I think the meta is in a solid place rn nothing seems overbearing.

I will say pult is very good maybe a bit over that line of too much. Hexpult is the best set rn and can be annoying to play against. Yes you can pursuit it but at the cost of the pursuiter being burned and practically useless after. Tran is probably the best switch in for the hex set but gets dented with Ghost-Z. I feel like a mix of its sets (dd, hex, specs) makes it annoying to face and constricts team building a little. On the fence about pult

I think gambit is honestly fine rn I think the meta has evolved and found options to face it (fblast dengo, aura sphere lati, low kick ttar). Sucker mind games can be annoying but there are a lot of faster mons that resist that can ko (lop, zama, valiant, tusk) or lele who straight up denies sucker. In all gambit is fine and doesnt need suspect.

 

[Forever1507]

Could we just sus dengo,personally I think this thing is making NatDex another g9ou(with tons of stealth rocks and spikes) and forcing everyone taking heavy-duty boots.People play NatDex mostly because of Mega and Z-moves(or why not just play g9ou?),and boots take the place of mega stones and Z-stones.
Although there are a lot of things as dengo counter,but most of them(such as Kinga) can also be kill by dengo with come certain sets(Focus Blast).
What's more,those dengo counter(Yard & pult) outspeed it always do not have Pursuit.Pursuit users are always slow and can be kill by some strange dengo sets.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

French class is boring so I'll yap abt Dragapult. Draga is the DOMINANT speed control in Ndex, being the fastest mon in a lot of games, often speed tying itself cause it's so everywhere. is it a healthy presence?

I
Don't think so.

Pult is able too incredibly easily dish out sweep 130BP STABs, in Dmeteor and hex, and pult got Infiltrator wisp like cmon how tf u get this evil, it has crazy bs coverage, like "Today I wanted to beat the fuck out of Heatran, I will run Specs Hpump", "I dslik Msciz, Fire blast I will run" and in Both Cases, Work is put in. never saw or played a game where it didn't get work done, ans whule it'd js be the sign of an "effctive Pokémon" in another Case, Like Lele, Pult's putting in work is Burning and hexing mons while totally ignoring Burn counterplay #1: Substitute. Like using substitutee in Pult Meta is actively making you MORE vulnerable to that mon, Something I cannot see as healthy. Draga rreally doesn't bring anything but speed control in a tier where Zama, Mlop, and koko Exist, so we don't really need it, and it's just a fucking menace.

unless you run Spdef Mandibuzz (Based af), the Counterplay to Draga has got no recovery. That means it can U-turn Chain them with incredible EASE esp in a Boots Meta. I also think that the fact it has so many sets is unheéalthy, as only a few can be guessed at team preview. DD can go Wow or Sub or even sucker Punch to win vs other DD Draga speed ties, Specs can run Hex on Status spam teams, Sball, Flamethrower, hydro pump, heck, you can even tech Scald! and the DMeteor from Specs Pult is No joke, don't even think "lmao 100 spa it hits less hard than solosis" bc it hits hard asf. then there is wisphex pult, unhealthy at will, Spreading Burn and Damage on its path, while having 142 speed U-turn if the opp tries anything sketchy.
What would the Draga ban give us? Less powercrept Dragons, less Toxic spinblocking options, (eat my headlong rush gholdengo LMAO), and much less of a need of a fairy type in a team, tho Satan unban kinda boosted the usage (Poor Mhera, as soon as bruh joins the VR he gets clapped by Clef Molt and Skarm Usage Skyrocketting and a DDancer that uses Acro on 60% of its sets)

I ain't saying we can't deal with Draga or that it causes me physical pain to run it, I js sy that CTRL+catapult is unhealthy

 

[Spookcooke]

Could we just sus dengo,personally I think this thing is making NatDex another g9ou(with tons of stealth rocks and spikes) and forcing everyone taking heavy-duty boots

most hazard removers have a good mu into dengo, (tusk, terap, treads, etc) and most players arent willing to sacrifice their dengo just for a single rock to be kept on the field. you gotta position ur hazard remover well to clear hazards.

What's more,those dengo counter(Yard & pult) outspeed it always do not have Pursuit.Pursuit users are always slow and can be kill by some strange dengo sets.

you can try banded weavile to trap offensive ghold or chipped defensive ones, weavile outspeeds it very well.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Have y'all tried Double Status Mega Altaria?
Toxic+Will-o-wisp Mega Altaria is one infuriating mon to face, as most counters to DD MAlt like molt or Corv hate being Status'd, but this MAlt can also run 20 Spe to outspeed And Will-o-wisp KGB, And Mega Altaria is also one very solid Yard Counter. Base alt can run cloud nine And turn weather ball to ridicule the Yard, and Mega alt's Hyper Voice is a nice powerful STAB that has no immunities except the very mid Soundproof Kommo-o (Walling ghold is better than this) it takes on all the broken dragons in the tier thans to reliable roost.

 

[Patar136]

Have y'all tried Double Status Mega Altaria?
Toxic+Will-o-wisp Mega Altaria is one infuriating mon to face, as most counters to DD MAlt like molt or Corv hate being Status'd, but this MAlt can also run 20 Spe to outspeed And Will-o-wisp KGB, And Mega Altaria is also one very solid Yard Counter. Base alt can run cloud nine And turn weather ball to ridicule the Yard, and Mega alt's Hyper Voice is a nice powerful STAB that has no immunities except the very mid Soundproof Kommo-o (Walling ghold is better than this) it takes on all the broken dragons in the tier thans to reliable roost.

Oh boy. Here we go again folks. At least this take isn’t as bad as the last one. Mega Altaria is pretty funny right now.

But it’s still Mega Altaria. In a tier where better megas exist.

Gotta give respect for an actual good STAB combination.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Oh boy. Here we go again folks. At least this take isn’t as bad as the last one. Mega Altaria is pretty funny right now.

But it’s still Mega Altaria. In a tier where better megas exist.

Gotta give respect for an actual good STAB combination.

The last one was "draga is unhealthy" boi it wasnt Kan-yu.


Wanna see a TERRIBLE terrible take?


I enjoy using spdef quaquaval as a spinner bc it has roost koff And pivot

 

[Forever1507]

(I am not from an English-speaking country,so if my expression have sth incorrect plz forgive me and point them out.)

Terastallize has already gone for about 3 months.After testing the new environment for a long time I have a simple question:does the DEATH of Tera make National Dex better?

I have doubt about it and here are my opinions.

1. Why Do We Ban Tera Before?
   1. Tera Type is hard to predict.Match-ups will change because of it.
      • The main problem is,you can never know what type will your oppo pokemon change into and it make decisions much more complex.
      • But that's the reason to ban Tera.There's obviously a BETTER solution:Just Show ALL Tera Type before battles,just like VGC games.
      • (and in fact information gap is one of the most interesting parts of a Pokemon battle.Just like different even strange move sets and items.)
      • So,then we have better ways to restrict Terastallize we should not consider banning it in the first place.Or it will violate the original intention of NatDex:the coexistence of different generational mechanics
   2. Some Pokemons suits Tera MORE
      • You cant ban Mega because Araidos didnt get its Mega.That's always unfair not only now.You say Ogerpon-W suits Tera more,so we can suspect it and we do have suspected it,the result is:DO NOT BAN.
      • Comparing with Mega and Z,Tera is at least fair on surface.Everyone can Tera into EVERY types.
      • Let's those Pokemon unbanned after Tera dies.
        1. Gholdengo.It's not only because of Tera that we ban it,dengo is still usable in SVOU.Not only Tera but also Z-moves make it broken.So why do you ban Tera but not Z-moves?
        2. Kingambit.The same as dengo.Not banned in SVOU
        3. Dragapult.Ghostium Z.Same as the two above.
        4. Melmemtal.OK this thing is banned just because Tera.
        5. Terapagos.This thing is banned because it change into quite another different Pokemon after Tera it.If we keep this form after Tera its will not be broken of course.
        6. Shedjinja.This thing should not appear together with Tera.
        7. Regilieki.Banned just because Tera.
        8. Zamazenta.It's banned because of the lack of dengo and pult.If we ban pult and dengo this thing should be banned now.
      • So you see,only few Pokemons got banned just because of Tera(Regieliki and Melm)(I do not count shed and terap because they are quite special).The others we mentioned like Ogerpon-W is not broken even with Tera like we've sused before.
2. What is Nation Dex like without Terastallize?
   1. much more SVOU-like
      • I always think two quite different tiers should have quite different styles to play.
      • The death of Tera make dengo down,and with dengo,there are more and more hazard offense and Heavy-Duty Boots in NatDex now.(that because rapid spin/mortal spin/defog are all immune to dengo and we can not move hazards.)
      • Of course NatDex should be different from SVOU,or why not just go and play SVOU?
      • You may think NatDex is and should be the DLC of OU.However,most player come and play NatDex because of Mega and Z.But Mega stones and Z-Crystals are items,if we are forced to take Boots,we will have fewer chances to use Mega and Z.
   2. unleashed some disgusting things.
      • This part include some of my personal thinkings.If you do not think then you are right.
      • Shedjinja,Terapagos and Relieliki.This 3 have a thing in common:They are not broken and even not good,but they are DISGUSTING.
      • Shedjinja,no need to explain;Terapagos,always hold your first attack with Tera Shell;Relieliki,too fast.With Tera this things are definitely broken and we have a chance to ban them.
      • I mean,you can easily check them,but you HAVE to check them or they will sweep your whole team.
   3. Much More Balance Teams AND Few HO & Stalls.
      • I just check NatDex Top10 players on ladder:7 Balances,2 Stalls,1 HO.One of the stall players(aabbbee) is my friend and he told me stall teams not CANT deal with great Balance teams at all(he used dr dreco's as sample).And during my own NatDex history(Peak #2),it's true that Balance teams is getting more and more.
      • Why is that?Why not many people reach high elo using HO?Without Terastallize most Pokemons can be defended by other certain Pokemons so that's hard to build a great HO team.
      • And why so many Balance?In the past we can use Tera as checker(such as classic Tera Dragon Donzo),but now we need certain mons or types to defend some certain mons(for example,fairy type mons for Roaring Moon) so we do not have many free choices.Whichs means,fewer places we have to use mons we want to use because of the lack of Tera.
      • I do not take part in tours a lot,so I ask my friends for help.They told me in tours people can change their Tera Types for certain players.THEN WHY DO NOT USE TERA TYPE PREVIEM but BAN it?

So my conclusion is: Banning Tera can not make NatDex better.We should consider it more carefully HOW SHOULD WE TREAT TERA.

 

[Spookcooke]

• Shedjinja,no need to explain;Terapagos,always hold your first attack with Tera Shell;Relieliki,too fast.With Tera this things are definitely broken and we have a chance to ban them.
• I mean,you can easily check them,but you HAVE to check them or they will sweep your whole team.

if you have an even semi-decent team AT ALL, shedinja and eleki should be no issue. you act like these 3 mons are game-ending threats but you dont even HAVE to keep them in mind cause any decent team already has multiple checks in hand, just by default. i really dont get why u want terapagos banned and tera unleashed, terapagos is arguably the healthiest thing we've unbanned.

1. Much More Balance Teams AND Few HO & Stalls.

yea... stall and ho's are both mu fishy playstyles, always had been.

1. Gholdengo.It's not only because of Tera that we ban it,dengo is still usable in SVOU.Not only Tera but also Z-moves make it broken.So why do you ban Tera but not Z-moves?
2. Kingambit.The same as dengo.Not banned in SVOU

svou is unlike nd, svou has much higher powercreep that can handle pokemon like gholdengo and kgb. even then, these two pokemon are STILL some of the best mons in the tier with tera. nd simply cannot take these kinds of mons, ghold and kgb with tera simply run the tier down. please do not compare nd and svou for the sake of discussing tera, as these two metagames are extremely different.

 

[Forever1507]

if you have an even semi-decent team AT ALL, shedinja and eleki should be no issue. you act like these 3 mons are game-ending threats but you dont even HAVE to keep them in mind cause any decent team already has multiple checks in hand, just by default. i really dont get why u want terapagos banned and tera unleashed, terapagos is arguably the healthiest thing we've unbanned.


yea... stall and ho's are both mu fishy playstyles, always had been.


svou is unlike nd, svou has much higher powercreep that can handle pokemon like gholdengo and kgb. even then, these two pokemon are STILL some of the best mons in the tier with tera. nd simply cannot take these kinds of mons, ghold and kgb with tera simply run the tier down. please do not compare nd and svou for the sake of discussing tera, as these two metagames are extremely different.

first i've already said that my personal thinkings,if u think differently then u r right.

second,ho and stall were quite dependable before tera's banned.

third,i am talking about the death of Tera make NatDex more like SVOU but not is already like SVOU.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Ill always defend Tera.

Yes, Now Is a bad time for Tera talk, as the urgence rn Is Draga sus Then another Tiering suspect.

However,

Why was Tera Banned? Unhealthy. Why was it unhealthy? It forced a LOT of bans. Is that unhealthy by definition? No. Like genuinely, Nasty plot breaks Chi-Yu, Mega Zam, And spectrier (spectrier Is a hot take, I know), but Is IS fine on MOST Pokemon that get It. So Is Tera. It forced KGB, Shed And Leki ban, contributed to Zama, Bax, Gouging, Ursa-B, And indirectly (KGB) led to pult And Dengo ban too. And Terapagos-Stellar Is a whole notha mon.
Z-moves are a mechanic that Breaks mons (Krai, Naganadel, Gouging, UrsaB, Chiyu, Arguably Pult Rbolt And dengo), cannot be seen at preview, And GREATLY helps mons get past their Counters. Kartana wannsa get past the Kanto birds? Good thing It can run Z norm Giga impact And Burst past 'em! Dengo wannsa KO KGB? Fight Z And NOT ONLY do you guarantee a hit, you also take minimal damage from Knock!
Besides, a lot of people enjoyed Tera, and, honestly, the current state of the tier Is deplorable. It looks much more like Other fairy gens OUs, and While one might argue that it means it's healthy, I think it js shows how it's Modeled to look like what people like.
What should Happen with Tera unban?
-Roaring moon, zama, Kgb, ghold, pult, rmoon, shedinja, eleki, rmoon Go back to Uber
-smt is done about Terapagos
-Yard becomes a Normal Mega again (goodbye Toxapex, Tera Dragon Ferro is back)
-look into the OBSCENITY that specs Lele already is
-look into the OBSCENITY that Volcarona is
-enjoy the tier because we've been through hell

if you have an even semi-decent team AT ALL, shedinja and eleki should be no issue. you act like these 3 mons are game-ending threats but you dont even HAVE to keep them in mind cause any decent team already has multiple checks in hand, just by default. i really dont get why u want terapagos banned and tera unleashed, terapagos is arguably the healthiest thing we've unbanned.


yea... stall and ho's are both mu fishy playstyles, always had been.


svou is unlike nd, svou has much higher powercreep that can handle pokemon like gholdengo and kgb. even then, these two pokemon are STILL some of the best mons in the tier with tera. nd simply cannot take these kinds of mons, ghold and kgb with tera simply run the tier down. please do not compare nd and svou for the sake of discussing tera, as these two metagames are extremely different.

I think that Eleki Is in fact a game ender, like legit just kill 1 ground and this mf out there dealing 60% to Spdef Ferrothorn
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Ferrothorn in Electric Terrain: 195-231 (55.5 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Terapagos Is indeed a healthy af mon and I legit think A Terapagos-Stellar clause is justified bc that mon does So much for the tier.

Stall and HO are MU fishy...
Brother HO is borderline unplayable. Roaring moon, Zama, KGB were unbanned, that's what happened.

"the meta with a limited pool of mons, withtout Z and megas is MUCH more prepared for threats than We are"
??????? Boy they just don't ban them for no reason, CG OU is sloppy as hell

I support taking action on Z-moves, By Banning them on Gen 7+ Mons, By banning them outright, Idfc, Let Mlade Koff Kill Dengo ffs

And




With Tera Banned, in the 99.99999% possibility We Don't look at Tera seriously again, what breaks palafin?
Most SV OU justifications Went as follow: "mf teratypes, mf BulkupTaunt sets, mf annoying"
In a tier with 172823 Dragons, where Pala canNot change its type, or Even get that much free turns, Why would that mf ever be broken? Rain is MID, So are cb sets. Would it bring anything?
that's not Even a question bro look at Rmoon lmao
If anything, it can click another Prio move resisted by Satan.



And




Gholdengo is a Crazy presence in the tier. It makes It So that Hazards are much harder to deal with, makes Corv abysmal, makes Mmedi abysmal, slows down offense a LOT, Has UNRESISTED STAB+cvg, and a Powerful asf Signature STAB at It, Nasty plot, Recover, like GameFreak pls do LESS freaky next time wtf.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

Why was Tera Banned? Unhealthy. Why was it unhealthy? It forced a LOT of bans. Is that unhealthy by definition? No.

I'm sorry but this just kinda bugs me (for so many reasons). First up, you say that Tera isn't unhealthy because it forced lots of bans. In that sense, wouldn't Dynamax also be considered "healthy" to you? We could just ban Volcarona, Kartana, Gyarados, and all that just to keep Dynamax afloat in Gen 8, but that wouldn't have led to a healthier metagame because it would just be based on whoever finds the most opportune time to Dynamax and sweep the enemy team, if you want to beat a good Dynamax you might just have to Dynamax back. Tera is much like Dynamax, if you find the most opportune time to Tera, you can leave your opponent in shambles while their only option is to Terastallize back. And unlike Z Moves and Megas (which both came at the opportunity cost of holding an item), Tera could be used on any Pokemon not using any of the aforementioned gimmicks, and allowed your Pokemon to get coverage that it really shouldn't have access to. That and you can get a damage boost on the fly with next to no repercussions. Sometimes you just had to accept that the Tera Normal Ursaluna would punch your entire team in the face for simply clicking the big button on Turn 1 and turning that 3HKO on Corviknight into a 2HKO. The very fact that we started banning stuff like Regieleki and Shedinja says enough about how "healthy" this mechanic truly is. You even proved it yourself by mentioning this stuff:

-Yard becomes a Normal Mega again (goodbye Toxapex, Tera Dragon Ferro is back)

You can't convince me that this isn't a problem. Why should the Ferrothorn get rewarded for staying in on the Fire type. This is a genuinely ridiculous argument, you're seriously making my life easier by harming the side you're on with these ludicrous points. The Charizard player shouldn't get punished for playing the game the way it has been intended to be played for years. Fire beats Grass so why not use the Fire move on the Grass type that is so recklessly staying in against you. If fundamentals are being warped to a point where Ferrothorn can somehow beat Charizard, then clearly there is an issue.

-Roaring moon, zama, Kgb, ghold, pult, rmoon, shedinja, eleki, rmoon Go back to Uber

Gee, we are banning like 6 perfectly fine Pokemon because of some "healthy" mechanic? I wonder what the problem is, the Pokemon that is quad weak to Fighting and the Pokemon that literally has 1 HP and can only be defeated by its many many weaknesses, or the mechanic that lets that Pokemon change its type and alleviate whatever crippling weakness it may have?

Z-moves are a mechanic that Breaks mons (Krai, Naganadel, Gouging, UrsaB, Chiyu, Arguably Pult Rbolt And dengo)

These are poor examples. The first few are honestly incredibly cracked on their own, Naganadel has crazy speed and Beast Boost to further the limit, Koraidon is Koraidon, and don't think I don't see you trying to weasel Chi-Yu in there. You know full well that it isn't broken entirely by Z Moves. We literally just went through this. Also, comparing Tera to Z-Moves is actually ludicrous. I mentioned this before in the Tera Suspect, but Z-Moves are like a one time giant bomb that you can give your Pokemon, if you miss your target, well then that sucks. You basically have no item on that Pokemon for the rest of the match and may or may not be stuck with a subpar move like Giga Impact, or something that opens you up to revenge KOs like Outrage. Tera is like giving your pokemon a gatling gun for the rest of the match, if you miss your target it doesn't really matter, because you still have the damage boost and potential typing change that Tera gives.

cannot be seen at preview

This couldn't be more wrong. Unlike Tera, you can quickly deduce if an enemy might have a Z-Move by checking these few things.

- Did it heal from Leftovers?
- Does it not take Hazard damage?
- Is it Choiced?

If the answer to any of these is yes, then obviously it can't be a Z-Move. Tera however, is pretty difficult to sleuth on team preview. The Kyurem could be Tera Fire, Electric, Ground, or anything else, and you'll only realize that after it Dragon Dances on your face then somehow defeats your counter because it suddenly turned its typing into something completely different and hit you with a move that it shouldn't have access to. At least with Z Moves you can reasonably expect the opponent to use a STAB move (perhaps one with a drawback like Draco Meteor or Outrage) or some unreliable coverage move like Focus Blast or Giga Impact. Z Moves are limited to the opponent's move pool, and come with the opportunity cost of basically losing an item. I'd much rather have my Ferrothorn get nailed by a Z Earthquake from Excadrill than a Tera Fire Tera Blast that gives it a move and typing it shouldn't have access to.

Besides, a lot of people enjoyed Tera, and, honestly, the current state of the tier Is deplorable. It looks much more like Other fairy gens OUs, and While one might argue that it means it's healthy, I think it js shows how it's Modeled to look like what people like.

This has to be a joke.

Terastallization
Ban: 101
Do Not Ban: 45
Ban % = 69.18%

We held a democratic vote where everyone with a reasonable level of skill could participate and cast their vote if they so pleased and the results ended up showing that Tera was a largely disliked mechanic. So we listened to the significant majority and banned Terastallization. It was a fair vote to determine what people thought of Tera. That's literally how democracy works, and yet here you are arguing that National Dex is unhealthy for being modelled to follow "what people like".

Arceus forbid that we listen to what the people want.
​

I honestly don't even know what to say about this. Survey results and otherwise prove that banning Tera actually improved the state of the format, like, did you even do any research? What are you even getting at here, seriously. We followed what the majority of the community wanted, and it seemed to have an effect for the better. If you want to play something "new" just go to the OM of the Month or something, (they actually are pretty fun).


Finally, before you start creating some wild response for this post:

​

 

[Forever1507]

Gee, we are banning like 6 perfectly fine Pokemon because of some "healthy" mechanic? I wonder what the problem is, the Pokemon that is quad weak to Fighting and the Pokemon that literally has 1 HP and can only be defeated by its many many weaknesses, or the mechanic that lets that Pokemon change its type and alleviate whatever crippling weakness it may have?

If Tera is back these 4 of these Pokemons should be banned(KGB,dengo,pult,Rmoon)not only because Tera but also Z-Moves because they can be used in SVOU.
Shedjinja,this guy should not turn up together with Terastallize...
So in fact Tera only destroy lieki(even if you add shed),that's quite acceptable.

This couldn't be more wrong. Unlike Tera, you can quickly deduce if an enemy might have a Z-Move by checking these few things.

- Did it heal from Leftovers?
- Does it not take Hazard damage?
- Is it Choiced?

If the answer to any of these is yes, then obviously it can't be a Z-Move. Tera however, is pretty difficult to sleuth on team preview. The Kyurem could be Tera Fire, Electric, Ground, or anything else, and you'll only realize that after it Dragon Dances on your face then somehow defeats your counter because it suddenly turned its typing into something completely different and hit you with a move that it shouldn't have access to. At least with Z Moves you can reasonably expect the opponent to use a STAB move (perhaps one with a drawback like Draco Meteor or Outrage) or some unreliable coverage move like Focus Blast or Giga Impact. Z Moves are limited to the opponent's move pool, and come with the opportunity cost of basically losing an item. I'd much rather have my Ferrothorn get nailed by a Z Earthquake from Excadrill than a Tera Fire Tera Blast that gives it a move and typing it shouldn't have access to.

A better choice is Tera Type Preview,instead of BAN it.

And lastly,Dynmax got banned even in SSOU,what about Tera?It's usable in SVOU and even in SVNU.

And only NatDex set THREE suspect tests against Terastallize.Why is that?Is that proper?If your answer is yes,then it's ok even great to start the 4th,5th and more

 

[Forever1507]

Talking about things like Ursaluna does not matter,this thing is even not banned before tera banned.Only valuable mons to talk about are things that unbanned after the death of Tera.

If possible,plz view my post above,thx.