Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

Dahness · Mar 14, 2025

FloopThePig said:
Now that the suspect is over, I think it's time to unban Shed Tail. When Terastallization was banned and some Pokémon were being reintroduced and discussed, it was glossed over since it is not a Pokémon. But with a major mechanic that contributed to Shed Tail's brokenness leaving, it deserves to be looked at like the others.

Shed Tail is only broken in a Tera metagame. For those that don't know the interaction, a slow/free Shed Tail grants the receiver a free turn behind sub, but with Tera it always turns into 2 or 3 turns by
1. flipping weaknesses which prevents the substitute from breaking, and
2. having to switch out your supposed counter due to Tera flipping type matchups.
The combination of status and chip damage protection from Shed Tail and the flipping of weaknesses from Tera means that there is very limited counterplay to this strategy. It is not uncommon to only need one free, slow Shed Tail turn to win the game with the right Tera type. The few counterplay this playstyle include Encore (usually a priority/fast one), Unaware users, phazing, or winning the mind game when you defensively Terastallize.

With Terastallization out of the way, the most relevant pro-Shed Tail argument has even more weight: its users suck. Orthworm and Sceptile are very committal to the strategy since they can realistically Shed Tail once on average. Only Cyclizar can reliably use it multple times, but I doubt it would be good enough to break Shed Tail with its mediocre bulk limiting its ability to switch in and its Shed Tail being fast. And if it is proven to be broken on Cyclizar, the Pokémon can be banned instead.

I was supposed to link some previous tournament replays when Shed Tail was legal to show how often Shed Tail receivers Terastallize, but unfortunately many of the tournament replays have been deleted

Air balloon dengo to your tusk/lando, name an attack you can hit it with it before it gets to set up at least 2 Nasty Plots.
do u really wanna see some terrific breakers come in and have a sub already set up for them as they switch?Think of a Volcarona coming in, having a free sub and being guaranteed the fact that no matter what, it gets a free qd up.Maybe even the second one if it's against something that can't immediately kill it immediately. Or a Roaring Moon. I can list many more set up breakers but you should get the idea. I would have somewhat understood this claim if we still had infiltrator Pult running around.

It could also be used to aid defensive mons but we all know people would use it to make absolutely horrendous ho cores. Just no.

Comett7778 · Mar 14, 2025

FloopThePig said:
Now that the suspect is over, I think it's time to unban Shed Tail.

A huge part of the Tera ban was how it favored offense too much, and shed tail is that to an even higher degree. Especially when you have a fast regenerator mon able to do it.

FloopThePig said:
With Terastallization out of the way, the most relevant pro-Shed Tail argument has even more weight: its users suck. Orthworm and Sceptile are very committal to the strategy since they can realistically Shed Tail once on average. Only Cyclizar can reliably use it multple times, but I doubt it would be good enough to break Shed Tail with its mediocre bulk limiting its ability to switch in and its Shed Tail being fast. And if it is proven to be broken on Cyclizar, the Pokémon can be banned instead.

Its users only suck without shed tail. It’s like saying we should unban shadow tag cause Gothitelle is bad. Sure it is right now without shadow tag, but you won’t think it’s bad when you’re trapped and it’s setting up with cosmic power.

FloopThePig said:
a slow/free Shed Tail grants the receiver a free turn behind sub, but with Tera it always turns into 2 or 3 turns by
1. flipping weaknesses which prevents the substitute from breaking, and
2. having to switch out your supposed counter due to Tera flipping type matchups.

You don’t always need multiple turns, you more often then not need one turn, and then you can usually take a hit well for a second turn of set up. Or you’re powerful enough from the first to start steam rolling.

slopcat · Mar 14, 2025

FloopThePig said:
Now that the suspect is over, I think it's time to unban Shed Tail. When Terastallization was banned and some Pokémon were being reintroduced and discussed, it was glossed over since it is not a Pokémon. But with a major mechanic that contributed to Shed Tail's brokenness leaving, it deserves to be looked at like the others.

Shed Tail is only broken in a Tera metagame. For those that don't know the interaction, a slow/free Shed Tail grants the receiver a free turn behind sub, but with Tera it always turns into 2 or 3 turns by
1. flipping weaknesses which prevents the substitute from breaking, and
2. having to switch out your supposed counter due to Tera flipping type matchups.
The combination of status and chip damage protection from Shed Tail and the flipping of weaknesses from Tera means that there is very limited counterplay to this strategy. It is not uncommon to only need one free, slow Shed Tail turn to win the game with the right Tera type. The few counterplay this playstyle include Encore (usually a priority/fast one), Unaware users, phazing, or winning the mind game when you defensively Terastallize.

With Terastallization out of the way, the most relevant pro-Shed Tail argument has even more weight: its users suck. Orthworm and Sceptile are very committal to the strategy since they can realistically Shed Tail once on average. Only Cyclizar can reliably use it multple times, but I doubt it would be good enough to break Shed Tail with its mediocre bulk limiting its ability to switch in and its Shed Tail being fast. And if it is proven to be broken on Cyclizar, the Pokémon can be banned instead.

I was supposed to link some previous tournament replays when Shed Tail was legal to show how often Shed Tail receivers Terastallize, but unfortunately many of the tournament replays have been deleted.

shed tail turns the game into matchup fish of doom and death. there are zero ways to punish shed tail other than like specs crown or urshifu surging, both of which are punishable in shifu's case with immunities or in crowns case by.... not clicking shed tail on the specs iron crown, and instead uturning out. even then there's actually heatran who can tank the tachyon and now magma or set rocks or get toxic, meaning shedtail is just a free turn. heatran + orthworm is also a bit vile considering that once you break the shed tail sub with tran behind it with say an average tusk set that drops fighting stab or lando-t, you now have to guess on whether or not you'll be allowed to kill the heatran or if you're just going to guarantee more shed tails in the future. i've seen some fucking cheese too, like a lagging tail cyclizar to farm slow subs and absorb knock (horrible but infuriating). personal anecdote aside, as you mention IMMEDIATELY the counterplay is almost none. have one of three real pokemon with unaware or run ting-lu.

im good brah roaring moon is already doing vietnam-level psychological warfare on the tier

FirstlyMe · Mar 14, 2025

metagame has changed a lot huh

R moon I being unbanned is fine, it’s underperforming a lot on my teams and isn’t particularly difficult to deal with and I wanted pult out of the tier.
Some people majorly disagree with the pult ban but I feel like pult was more controversial than broken and it’s ban was simply there for peace building efforts, I hated running 2 checks every team and still ending up losing the game to it.
Pult also gave me a new found love for Melm.
Pult having such immense set variety made games depend on the surprise factor for me:
Pult switches in-
Did it take hazard damage?
no=boots
Yes=z, specs, sash or band
Did it use substitute?
Yes=z
No=sash, band, specs
Did use a special move?
No=band
Yes=sash, specs
You can calc the damage whether it’s specs or not from here.
Pults speed tier while it also being near unwallable made it a huge problem. Only like Melm and gambit were able to consistently answer it.
Also I should mention, at times Z also runs status inflicting moves which makes it harder to tell between it and boots.
I should also mention that figuring out the pult set quickly isn’t as much of a flowchart method I just showed, scenarios can go extremely differently like lead pult for example.
I said that Melm and gambit were able to consistently answer while not being shitmons, pult has answers and checks outside of these 2 but those guys don’t have as high of a success rate.

ant4456 · Mar 14, 2025

I agree with the premise that Shed Tail isn't nearly as broken, if broken in a vacuum, without Tera.

Tera can allow you to choose if your Shed Tail'd Pokemon is in a good position and exponentially better its turns. ie.

Let's say on an average threat it takes two turns in a BO vs BO to get it out, mons that chip each other but still:

Turn 1: Threat forces you out.
Turn 2: You attack the Threat and force it out.

With Tera (Tera turns it into Bad MU example):

Turn 1: Threat forces you out.
Turn 2: You attack the Threat, and it Teras and lives.
Turn 3: Threat forces you out.
Turn 4: You attack the Threat and force it out.

With Tera + Shed Tail:

Turn 1: Threat forces you out.
Turn 2: You attack the Threat, and it Teras and lives.
Turn 3: Threat forces you out.
Turn 4: You attack the Threat and kill the sub.
Turn 5: You attack the Threat and force it out.

Shed Tail only?:

Turn 1: Threat forces you out.
Turn 2: You attack the Threat and kill the sub.
Turn 3: You attack the Threat and force it out.

Of course, two major factors.

1. Sometimes, that one extra turn is enough to just setup and beat down the check.

2. The Shed Tail User. This is the main one to me, The Dragon is Insane.

Because of Regenerator, there isn't much, if any, long-term progress gained from killing the sub. Unlike a Pokemon like Orthworm, where it has maybe two opportunities + you're running a shitmon, you basically get A-Bad, But Still A-Tornadus-T, with Shed Tail, that basically can do it like 4 times pretty realistically.

If Shed Tail were to be unbanned, it'd necessitate a ban of Cyclizar, and then we're back at the classic problem with unbans like this. "If it's not broken, it's just shit and unviable. If it's not bad, it's most likely broken."

Which IMO makes the idea entirely a dud.

FirstlyMe · Mar 14, 2025

ant4456 said:
I agree with the premise that Shed Tail isn't nearly as broken, if broken in a vacuum, without Tera.

Tera can allow you to choose if your Shed Tail'd Pokemon is in a good position and exponentially better its turns. ie.

Let's say on an average threat it takes two turns in a BO vs BO to get it out, mons that chip each other but still:

Turn 1: Threat forces you out.
Turn 2: You attack the Threat and force it out.

With Tera (Tera turns it into Bad MU example):

Turn 1: Threat forces you out.
Turn 2: You attack the Threat, and it Teras and lives.
Turn 3: Threat forces you out.
Turn 4: You attack the Threat and force it out.

With Tera + Shed Tail:

Turn 1: Threat forces you out.
Turn 2: You attack the Threat, and it Teras and lives.
Turn 3: Threat forces you out.
Turn 4: You attack the Threat and kill the sub.
Turn 5: You attack the Threat and force it out.

Shed Tail only?:

Turn 1: Threat forces you out.
Turn 2: You attack the Threat and kill the sub.
Turn 3: You attack the Threat and force it out.

Of course, two major factors.

1. Sometimes, that one extra turn is enough to just setup and beat down the check.

2. The Shed Tail User. This is the main one to me, The Dragon is Insane.

Because of Regenerator, there isn't much, if any, long-term progress gained from killing the sub. Unlike a Pokemon like Orthworm, where it has maybe two opportunities + you're running a shitmon, you basically get A-Bad, But Still A-Tornadus-T, with Shed Tail, that basically can do it like 4 times pretty realistically.

If Shed Tail were to be unbanned, it'd necessitate a ban of Cyclizar, and then we're back at the classic problem with unbans like this. "If it's not broken, it's just shit and unviable. If it's not bad, it's most likely broken."

Which IMO makes the idea entirely a dud.

I don’t think shed tail unban is ethical, like at all.
It’s going to make HO and BO stupidly hard to deal with, it’s a massive nuisance and well, bike dragon gets a ton of opportunities to use it every game cuz of regen.
One thing I think will happen is sceptile gaining a SubPasser niche, it’s a shitmon but it’s faster than cyclizar so it’ll have something going on.
And I’m talking about normal plain old sceptile, not the mega, the mega will never want to run a support move when it’s the one which is in need of support.

AM · Mar 14, 2025

tier doesnt need any unbans, especially Shed Tail. There is already some pretty contentious stuff in the format right now largely stemming from the current stuff that was unbanned originally. While I only really play this format in tour at this point, I would be interested to let the meta settle for a month or so and perhaps look into stuff currently in the format. While I dont have strong opinions on any of them W-Ogerpon, Ghold, Gambit seem like the ones I see complaints about and all of them basically got better with Pult's departure for a number of reasons.

ant4456 · Mar 14, 2025

FirstlyMe said:
I don’t think shed tail unban is ethical, like at all.
It’s going to make HO and BO stupidly hard to deal with, it’s a massive nuisance and well, bike dragon gets a ton of opportunities to use it every game cuz of regen.
One thing I think will happen is sceptile gaining a SubPasser niche, it’s a shitmon but it’s faster than cyclizar so it’ll have something going on.
And I’m talking about normal plain old sceptile, not the mega, the mega will never want to run a support move when it’s the one which is in need of support.

The conclusion of the post is that we shouldn't try to unban it so I think we agree

slopcat · Mar 14, 2025

FirstlyMe said:
metagame has changed a lot huh

R moon I being unbanned is fine, it’s underperforming a lot on my teams and isn’t particularly difficult to deal with and I wanted pult out of the tier.
Some people majorly disagree with the pult ban but I feel like pult was more controversial than broken and it’s ban was simply there for peace building efforts, I hated running 2 checks every team and still ending up losing the game to it.
Pult also gave me a new found love for Melm.
Pult having such immense set variety made games depend on the surprise factor for me:
Pult switches in-
Did it take hazard damage?
no=boots
Yes=z, specs, sash or band
Did it use substitute?
Yes=z
No=sash, band, specs
Did use a special move?
No=band
Yes=sash, specs
You can calc the damage whether it’s specs or not from here.
Pults speed tier while it also being near unwallable made it a huge problem. Only like Melm and gambit were able to consistently answer it.
Also I should mention, at times Z also runs status inflicting moves which makes it harder to tell between it and boots.
I should also mention that figuring out the pult set quickly isn’t as much of a flowchart method I just showed, scenarios can go extremely differently like lead pult for example.
I said that Melm and gambit were able to consistently answer while not being shitmons, pult has answers and checks outside of these 2 but those guys don’t have as high of a success rate.

this whole post is kinda fundamentally flawed although i do agree melm is fun af and i recognize that you fundamentally agree with the point that pult deserved the ban. this is just to avoid the "flowchart" idea (which you address, to be clear, but this post is more to highlight that even breaking it down into a 7-point flowchart, which is already insane mind you, is not going to aid you in gameplay or in discussion)

boots can mean any combination of moves, whether that's wisphex or shadowball or twavehex ddarts or draco so just knowing its boots doesn't exactly narrow it down that much. z sets can often forgo sub especially on wisphex z. ddarts is commonly run on wisphex. hex and draco were run outside of sash/specs. sash also sucked booty ass but thats besides the point tbf.

the biggest point here is that if you guess minorly wrong, even as much as the first time it clicks a move besides u-turn, you can lose. the gameplan for specs pult is radically different than the one for dd z which in itself requires entirely different gameplans than wisphex. ones like melm get wisped and u-turnd onto something that can punish contact. pult was remarkably asinine in the way it made games revolve around it. thank god the fucker got the boot

hidin · Mar 16, 2025

With NDBD concluding, I've gathered all of the usage stats from National Dex OU in the tournament; how do you guys feel about the usage that some Pokemon had? Did any of them dissapoint you? Surprise you? For me, the success of the core of Gliscor / Toxapex / Ferrothorn was pretty unsurprising since it's a very standard defensive core yet one of the most effective cores of consistently being aggravating to face with the amount of chip damage they put on the field or onto foes directly. What do you guys think?

National Dex OU

Replay Links / Moves and Teammates / Moves by Pokemon / Combos / Leads

Code:

+ ---- + -------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon              | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + -------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian     |  111 |  37.25% |  54.05% |
| 2    | Gholdengo            |   82 |  27.52% |  46.34% |
| 3    | Dragapult            |   77 |  25.84% |  49.35% |
| 4    | Ferrothorn           |   75 |  25.17% |  65.33% |
| 5    | Kingambit            |   70 |  23.49% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Zamazenta            |   59 |  19.80% |  52.54% |
| 7    | Tapu Lele            |   55 |  18.46% |  50.91% |
| 8    | Terapagos            |   54 |  18.12% |  59.26% |
| 9    | Toxapex              |   53 |  17.79% |  54.72% |
| 10   | Ogerpon-Wellspring   |   52 |  17.45% |  55.77% |
| 11   | Great Tusk           |   50 |  16.78% |  56.00% |
| 12   | Ting-Lu              |   50 |  16.78% |  54.00% |
| 13   | Gliscor              |   45 |  15.10% |  44.44% |
| 14   | Moltres              |   44 |  14.77% |  52.27% |
| 15   | Zapdos               |   43 |  14.43% |  53.49% |
| 16   | Diancie              |   43 |  14.43% |  62.79% |
| 17   | Urshifu              |   42 |  14.09% |  61.90% |
| 18   | Samurott-Hisui       |   41 |  13.76% |  39.02% |
| 19   | Garchomp             |   38 |  12.75% |  44.74% |
| 20   | Raging Bolt          |   37 |  12.42% |  45.95% |
| 21   | Melmetal             |   32 |  10.74% |  62.50% |
| 22   | Tapu Koko            |   31 |  10.40% |  54.84% |
| 23   | Charizard            |   30 |  10.07% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Alomomola            |   29 |   9.73% |  55.17% |
| 25   | Heatran              |   28 |   9.40% |  35.71% |
| 26   | Dragonite            |   23 |   7.72% |  47.83% |
| 27   | Volcarona            |   23 |   7.72% |  34.78% |
| 28   | Iron Valiant         |   22 |   7.38% |  54.55% |
| 29   | Tornadus-Therian     |   21 |   7.05% |  42.86% |
| 30   | Clefable             |   20 |   6.71% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Tyranitar            |   19 |   6.38% |  47.37% |
| 32   | Slowbro              |   19 |   6.38% |  68.42% |
| 33   | Latios               |   19 |   6.38% |  63.16% |
| 34   | Lopunny              |   16 |   5.37% |  43.75% |
| 35   | Kyurem               |   15 |   5.03% |  46.67% |
| 36   | Corviknight          |   15 |   5.03% |  46.67% |
| 37   | Slowking-Galar       |   12 |   4.03% |  58.33% |
| 38   | Scizor               |   11 |   3.69% |  54.55% |
| 39   | Medicham             |   11 |   3.69% |  45.45% |
| 40   | Magnezone            |   10 |   3.36% |  60.00% |
| 41   | Iron Treads          |   10 |   3.36% |  60.00% |
| 42   | Kartana              |    9 |   3.02% |  22.22% |
| 43   | Weavile              |    9 |   3.02% |  33.33% |
| 44   | Tapu Fini            |    8 |   2.68% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Victini              |    8 |   2.68% |  50.00% |
| 46   | Rotom-Wash           |    8 |   2.68% |  37.50% |
| 47   | Pelipper             |    8 |   2.68% |  50.00% |
| 48   | Swampert             |    8 |   2.68% |  50.00% |
| 49   | Pecharunt            |    7 |   2.35% |  28.57% |
| 50   | Araquanid            |    7 |   2.35% |  57.14% |
| 51   | Iron Crown           |    7 |   2.35% |  14.29% |
| 52   | Mawile               |    7 |   2.35% |  71.43% |
| 53   | Kommo-o              |    6 |   2.01% |  33.33% |
| 54   | Venusaur             |    6 |   2.01% |  33.33% |
| 55   | Hydrapple            |    6 |   2.01% |  33.33% |
| 56   | Archaludon           |    6 |   2.01% |  66.67% |
| 57   | Cinderace            |    6 |   2.01% |  33.33% |
| 58   | Roaring Moon         |    5 |   1.68% |  60.00% |
| 59   | Primarina            |    5 |   1.68% |  20.00% |
| 60   | Latias               |    5 |   1.68% |   0.00% |
| 61   | Manaphy              |    5 |   1.68% |  80.00% |
| 62   | Serperior            |    4 |   1.34% |  50.00% |
| 63   | Ninetales-Alola      |    4 |   1.34% |  75.00% |
| 64   | Clodsire             |    4 |   1.34% |  50.00% |
| 65   | Sableye              |    4 |   1.34% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Hatterene            |    4 |   1.34% |  25.00% |
| 67   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |    4 |   1.34% |  50.00% |
| 68   | Porygon-Z            |    3 |   1.01% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Meowscarada          |    3 |   1.01% |  33.33% |
| 70   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone  |    3 |   1.01% |  33.33% |
| 71   | Chansey              |    3 |   1.01% |  66.67% |
| 72   | Dondozo              |    3 |   1.01% |  33.33% |
| 73   | Sinistcha            |    3 |   1.01% |  33.33% |
| 74   | Ursaluna             |    3 |   1.01% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Tinkaton             |    3 |   1.01% |  66.67% |
| 76   | Rillaboom            |    3 |   1.01% |  33.33% |
| 77   | Skarmory             |    3 |   1.01% |  33.33% |
| 78   | Iron Moth            |    3 |   1.01% |  33.33% |
| 79   | Ceruledge            |    2 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 80   | Gyarados             |    2 |   0.67% |  50.00% |
| 81   | Barraskewda          |    2 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Iron Boulder         |    2 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Tapu Bulu            |    2 |   0.67% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Volcanion            |    2 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Hawlucha             |    2 |   0.67% |  50.00% |
| 86   | Heracross            |    2 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Blissey              |    2 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Okidogi              |    2 |   0.67% |  50.00% |
| 89   | Ribombee             |    2 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 90   | Xurkitree            |    2 |   0.67% |  50.00% |
| 91   | Munkidori            |    2 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 92   | Overqwil             |    2 |   0.67% |  50.00% |
| 93   | Blacephalon          |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Excadrill            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 95   | Iron Hands           |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 96   | Regieleki            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 97   | Aegislash            |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 98   | Chesnaught           |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 99   | Cresselia            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Ditto                |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Zeraora              |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 102  | Fezandipiti          |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Goodra-Hisui         |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Keldeo-Resolute      |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Amoonguss            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 106  | Slowking             |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 107  | Arctozolt            |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 108  | Grimmsnarl           |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Weezing-Galar        |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 110  | Celesteela           |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 111  | Gardevoir            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 112  | Glimmora             |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 113  | Steelix              |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 114  | Pinsir               |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 115  | Enamorus             |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 116  | Hoopa-Unbound        |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 117  | Shuckle              |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 118  | Greninja             |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 119  | Celebi               |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 120  | Garganacl            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 121  | Mew                  |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 122  | Thundurus-Therian    |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Jellicent            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 124  | Empoleon             |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 125  | Hippowdon            |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 126  | Salamence            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |

If you guys want to observe anything like the specific amount of items a Pokemon used, or a graph of the usage of a Pokemon, check this website: https://fulllifegames.com/Tools/ReplayScouter/#/; I'd love to include them in this post but I am very tired.

Moyashi · Mar 16, 2025

It is interesting to see how a little while ago there was a sentiment that LandoT was slightly worse before and might not be top dog (and I’m guilty of this too), yet it remained the most used Pokémon there with good success, and I think fundamentally it’ll always be what it is because of the flexibility it offers both by itself and for team building.

Other stuff… I’m not too surprised by Terapagos seeing good usage as it’s proving its worth in this meta and being one of the most consistently reliable sources of spin, even if only once in a game (which can be enough if its user capitalizes on it well). I’m a bit surprised about the relatively down low ZardY usage, considering the sentiment some people have towards it but I think it’s a sign that ZardY teams aren’t as easy to build as others and that the meta is naturally developing in a way that’s able to handle it plenty fine.

Cool to see stuff like Latios (assuming that’s Mega) getting used. Long held the belief it’s an underrated pick and while it’s not a ton of usage, it’s worth acknowledging.

about15gals · Mar 16, 2025

agreeing with moyashi here on a lot of stuff, seeing melm and ferro put up lebron numbers is pretty awesome too, glad to see them hit their stride in this metagame since i think they've got a lot of really good traits. mmaw being so high up on WR is pretty bonkers too, but that might be because of how it's more in line as a fish, so it's catching people out in good matchups if their prep is lacking (same thing with pz because that guy is ass lmao). I'm pretty shocked by gholdengo and kingambit going negative by a pretty decisive margin though, probably because people were accounting for them in builder a lot since they're common threats

SHOSPLE COLUPIS · Mar 16, 2025

Mega Dian over yard.

A pleasant surprise.

ant4456 · Mar 16, 2025

Moyashi said:
It is interesting to see how a little while ago there was a sentiment that LandoT was slightly worse before and might not be top dog (and I’m guilty of this too), yet it remained the most used Pokémon there with good success, and I think fundamentally it’ll always be what it is because of the flexibility it offers both by itself and for team building.

Other stuff… I’m not too surprised by Terapagos seeing good usage as it’s proving its worth in this meta and being one of the most consistently reliable sources of spin, even if only once in a game (which can be enough if its user capitalizes on it well). I’m a bit surprised about the relatively down low ZardY usage, considering the sentiment some people have towards it but I think it’s a sign that ZardY teams aren’t as easy to build as others and that the meta is naturally developing in a way that’s able to handle it plenty fine.

Cool to see stuff like Latios (assuming that’s Mega) getting used. Long held the belief it’s an underrated pick and while it’s not a ton of usage, it’s worth acknowledging.

Lando T is both the easiest mon to throw in the builder first and the easiest to throw on as a 6th an almost made team

It is the perfect thing to start a team with and end a team with. Perfect teambuilding mon

Runo · Mar 16, 2025

hidin said:
| 40 | Magnezone | 10 | 3.36% | 60.00% |

slopcat · Mar 16, 2025

hidin said:
| 40 | Magnezone | 10 | 3.36% | 60.00% |
| 58 | Roaring Moon | 5 | 1.68% | 60.00% |

their degenerate, matchup fishing low usage 60% winrate cheesepick versus our godlike, niche hidden potential 60% winrate warrior of god

FirstlyMe · Mar 19, 2025

slopcat said:
their degenerate, matchup fishing low usage 60% winrate cheesepick versus our godlike, niche hidden potential 60% winrate warrior of god
View attachment 722480

Moon dropping to UU?
That honestly just sounds hilarious

Sputnik · Mar 19, 2025

I just wanna talk about a couple of meta trends that somehow haven't really been addressed in this thread yet.

:sv/gliscor:

You have certainly had many dealings with these four if you've been playing in or watching tournaments recently. Gliscor balance has become the unquestionable defining playstyle of the metagame, mostly on the back of the Spikes+Protect+Toxic set. Arguably the single best progress maker in the entire tier, this thing sticks around forever unless you have a way to severely damage or outright KO it while also preventing it from Spiking or statusing whatever your current Pokemon is. This is, shockingly, incredibly challenging for a lot of teams to confidently do, especially when paired with the above teammates. GliscPex has become one of the defining cores of the tier. We all know what these two can do defensively at this point, and breaking them is extremely challenging even if you have a theoretically ok matchup because Gliscor is littering the field with Spikes and both of them can spread status to wear down your breaker extremely quickly. Great Tusk should be threatening to these two on paper, except it can't confidently switch in at all and has to choose between the correct coverage move to hit Gliscor or Toxapex as well as the potential to Rapid Spin to clear the Spikes (or Stealth Rock but Spikes Gliscor is usually run these days) that are chipping down its team. That is, of course, not to mention the fact that these teams often have additional insurance to strong physical breakers. You have to do a happy little dance that involves perfect prediction with your wallbreaker as well as not taking any status condition or hazard damage because GliscPex will outlast you. Ferrothorn and Gholdengo complement this core well by helping sponge dangerous Psychic- and Fairy-types while also having notable utility themselves. Ferrothorn can add up the residual damage even further and create a deadly hazard stacking core with Gliscor. This thing had an insane run in Blind Draft, just check out the usage stats alongside the winrate. I don't think a single other Pokemon came close to that success in OU. Ghold is pretty self explanatory at this point. It can help maintain hazards and exerts significant pressure itself, not to mention how its the single best and most splashable Tapu Lele check in the entire tier. If your team cannot break these balances it is simply not a good team in the current environment. It's a big reason why things like Kyurem, Volcanion, Nidoking, and other fringier balance breakers are worth considering in serious games. However, there are other ways to break these teams open, for example...

:sv/slowbro:

One of the best ways to pressure the balance teams above is through FuturePort offense. I talked at length about these two, and why I think they should rise, in a VR post I made recently, so check that out if you want specifics. The extremely slow pivoting is also crucial to their function, however, as switching into the above balance core is very challenging for many offensive Pokemon, and these two take a ton of pressure off. Slowbro in particular can sponge a Toxic from Gliscor or Toxapex if it absolutely has to, and its oftentimes worth the effort if you use that opportunity to position yourself to take down a piece of the above core. I particularly like pairing these two with Urshifu-RS and Mega Lopunny. Urshifu doesn't care about Gliscor's Protect shenanigans at all and loves being able to freely click its STAB moves without Toxapex getting in the way. Meanwhile, Mega Lopunny offers a ton of additional utility in terms of shoring up the offense matchup, and it restricts your opponents ability to try and pivot around the incoming STAB move with Gholdengo. Boots Zamazenta is also a nice choice for this role, as it also adds speed control alongside excellent coverage and Stone Edge to deal with birds that may come to play in other matchups. This can really work with a bunch of different breakers though, so pick what works best for your team and go wild. I firmly believe that FuturePort is one of the best offensive playstyles available right now, as it can slice through these balances with proper play and can generally exert a ton of pressure in most matchups.

:sv/ogerpon-wellspring:

I'm not advocating for any imminent tiering action, but Waterpon is by far the most broken offensive threat in the tier in my opinion, and I'm a bit baffled as to why I don't see more of it. You would be hardpressed to find a better offensive progress maker in the current metagame, and our defensive options are simply terrified of the simple Swords Dance set. Water/Grass has amazing neutral coverage right now, and the choice between Superpower and Play Rough can be made depending on what your team most needs cleared out of the way. Depending on the coverage move, your best options are either Ferrothorn and a couple other extremely bulky Steel-types, or Dragons like Mega Latios and Dragonite. The list of surefire defensive answers are mostly restricted to very fat Grass-types, none of which are particularly easy or satisfying to fit on teams, with the possible exception of Mega Venusaur, as well as Multiscale Dragonite, but with good prediction and a bit of support you can find ways past all of these. You have to play extremely carefully around a well supported Ogerpon, as it can cleave through teams at a moments notice with just a little bit of hazard support, or chip on your Dragon or Melmetal, or just an opportune Ivy Cudgel Crit. A lot of teams simply tried to revenge kill it as recently as early in Blind Draft, but this is a very iffy strategy, especially since the meta is trending fat, again, and a lot of Waterpon revenge killers do not match up particularly well into the bulkier metagame, not to mention that actually OHKOing the thing isn't easy either thanks to its good typing and not-insignificant bulk. This is further compounded by Dragapult leaving, which I generally supported but it was one of the best offensive checks to Waterpon, as it could both burn it and maintain momentum for its team. Again, I want to see how the metagame continues to develop post Pult, but I do believe that this will end up needing tiering attention.

The pivot set is bad stop running it.

FirstlyMe · Mar 21, 2025

Sputnik said:
I just wanna talk about a couple of meta trends that somehow haven't really been addressed in this thread yet.

You have certainly had many dealings with these four if you've been playing in or watching tournaments recently. Gliscor balance has become the unquestionable defining playstyle of the metagame, mostly on the back of the Spikes+Protect+Toxic set. Arguably the single best progress maker in the entire tier, this thing sticks around forever unless you have a way to severely damage or outright KO it while also preventing it from Spiking or statusing whatever your current Pokemon is. This is, shockingly, incredibly challenging for a lot of teams to confidently do, especially when paired with the above teammates. GliscPex has become one of the defining cores of the tier. We all know what these two can do defensively at this point, and breaking them is extremely challenging even if you have a theoretically ok matchup because Gliscor is littering the field with Spikes and both of them can spread status to wear down your breaker extremely quickly. Great Tusk should be threatening to these two on paper, except it can't confidently switch in at all and has to choose between the correct coverage move to hit Gliscor or Toxapex as well as the potential to Rapid Spin to clear the Spikes (or Stealth Rock but Spikes Gliscor is usually run these days) that are chipping down its team. That is, of course, not to mention the fact that these teams often have additional insurance to strong physical breakers. You have to do a happy little dance that involves perfect prediction with your wallbreaker as well as not taking any status condition or hazard damage because GliscPex will outlast you. Ferrothorn and Gholdengo complement this core well by helping sponge dangerous Psychic- and Fairy-types while also having notable utility themselves. Ferrothorn can add up the residual damage even further and create a deadly hazard stacking core with Gliscor. This thing had an insane run in Blind Draft, just check out the usage stats alongside the winrate. I don't think a single other Pokemon came close to that success in OU. Ghold is pretty self explanatory at this point. It can help maintain hazards and exerts significant pressure itself, not to mention how its the single best and most splashable Tapu Lele check in the entire tier. If your team cannot break these balances it is simply not a good team in the current environment. It's a big reason why things like Kyurem, Volcanion, Nidoking, and other fringier balance breakers are worth considering in serious games. However, there are other ways to break these teams open, for example...

One of the best ways to pressure the balance teams above is through FuturePort offense. I talked at length about these two, and why I think they should rise, in a VR post I made recently, so check that out if you want specifics. The extremely slow pivoting is also crucial to their function, however, as switching into the above balance core is very challenging for many offensive Pokemon, and these two take a ton of pressure off. Slowbro in particular can sponge a Toxic from Gliscor or Toxapex if it absolutely has to, and its oftentimes worth the effort if you use that opportunity to position yourself to take down a piece of the above core. I particularly like pairing these two with Urshifu-RS and Mega Lopunny. Urshifu doesn't care about Gliscor's Protect shenanigans at all and loves being able to freely click its STAB moves without Toxapex getting in the way. Meanwhile, Mega Lopunny offers a ton of additional utility in terms of shoring up the offense matchup, and it restricts your opponents ability to try and pivot around the incoming STAB move with Gholdengo. Boots Zamazenta is also a nice choice for this role, as it also adds speed control alongside excellent coverage and Stone Edge to deal with birds that may come to play in other matchups. This can really work with a bunch of different breakers though, so pick what works best for your team and go wild. I firmly believe that FuturePort is one of the best offensive playstyles available right now, as it can slice through these balances with proper play and can generally exert a ton of pressure in most matchups.

I'm not advocating for any imminent tiering action, but Waterpon is by far the most broken offensive threat in the tier in my opinion, and I'm a bit baffled as to why I don't see more of it. You would be hardpressed to find a better offensive progress maker in the current metagame, and our defensive options are simply terrified of the simple Swords Dance set. Water/Grass has amazing neutral coverage right now, and the choice between Superpower and Play Rough can be made depending on what your team most needs cleared out of the way. Depending on the coverage move, your best options are either Ferrothorn and a couple other extremely bulky Steel-types, or Dragons like Mega Latios and Dragonite. The list of surefire defensive answers are mostly restricted to very fat Grass-types, none of which are particularly easy or satisfying to fit on teams, with the possible exception of Mega Venusaur, as well as Multiscale Dragonite, but with good prediction and a bit of support you can find ways past all of these. You have to play extremely carefully around a well supported Ogerpon, as it can cleave through teams at a moments notice with just a little bit of hazard support, or chip on your Dragon or Melmetal, or just an opportune Ivy Cudgel Crit. A lot of teams simply tried to revenge kill it as recently as early in Blind Draft, but this is a very iffy strategy, especially since the meta is trending fat, again, and a lot of Waterpon revenge killers do not match up particularly well into the bulkier metagame, not to mention that actually OHKOing the thing isn't easy either thanks to its good typing and not-insignificant bulk. This is further compounded by Dragapult leaving, which I generally supported but it was one of the best offensive checks to Waterpon, as it could both burn it and maintain momentum for its team. Again, I want to see how the metagame continues to develop post Pult, but I do believe that this will end up needing tiering attention.

The pivot set is bad stop running it.

Agreeing or disagreeing with each of your claims
First claim- I mostly agree but I don’t think gliscor balance is the best style in the current meta, yeah maybe it’s because I keep using RU and UU mons on my teams (THEY ARE WAY MORE FUN TO USE) but I use gliscor a lot and it isn’t extremely significant. I can’t speak too much though because i’ve never paired gliscor with pex and from what your wording suggests, that’s the best core from the “super common 4” (pex isn’t even that common rn). I’ll say the best Playstyle goes to normal BO, now this is an OPINION. I’ll love to see a healthy discussion on why you think BO isn’t the best rn, just don’t hatefully bash me for it.

Second claim- FuturePort offense is good rn, not much to say, I just agree

Third claim- I agree but I’m biased asf towards Waterpon sooooooo… Jokes aside I say that the 50/50 MU between play rough and superpower is enough for it to be well, not balanced or healthy, but tolerable in the tier. Yes it has teammates to deal with the bad MUs like ferro on a play rough set but then, the ferro team also has teammates. Is it still absolutely fucking unwallable? Yes, am I coping based on my bias? Also yes.
It’s surprising that Waterpon isn’t receiving ANY attention lately in both normal SV OU and NatDex even though both communities hate it.
It’s definitely going to get a suspect soon, and it’s likely o7’s for pon but I will die on the hill of low ladder noob not knowing any other good way to deal with walls.
:sv/ogerpon:

(Ik zard y and specs/cm lele exist btw)

Ineros · Mar 21, 2025

FirstlyMe said:
Agreeing or disagreeing with each of your claims
First claim- I mostly agree but I don’t think gliscor balance is the best style in the current meta, yeah maybe it’s because I keep using RU and UU mons on my teams (THEY ARE WAY MORE FUN TO USE) but I use gliscor a lot and it isn’t extremely significant. I can’t speak too much though because i’ve never paired gliscor with pex and from what your wording suggests, that’s the best core from the “super common 4” (pex isn’t even that common rn). I’ll say the best Playstyle goes to normal BO, now this is an OPINION. I’ll love to see a healthy discussion on why you think BO isn’t the best rn, just don’t hatefully bash me for it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-820646
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2301999821-1v0x70mfwthcfm3r6we25k9kubg6yjmpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-820395
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2301464155-vidl7xgm45rvc6gysuugb31s3v2lb4opw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-820054?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2298868007-nwwdpjkm11x7nslw4nyi5o2gwnp3t7dpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-819236

These are only just a fraction of replays from ndbd where gliscor and balance in general has performed well, win or loss. It’s an extremely consistent playstyle that has seen a huge uptick in usage in tournament play, and gliscor’s effectiveness and success in gaining momentum and forcing progress for a team is what makes balance really consistent against a ton of offense / Bo playstyles. It isn’t S- for no reason; if you use the standard spikes toxic eq tect with max spdef then you will gain insane mileage against more than half of the meta already. There is not much that exploits gliscor because heavy offense / ho is rarer nowadays in favor of balance / Bo structures that gliscor loves to play against. There has also been a ton of usage of gliscpex ferro Ghold on balance cores mainly due to the mono aids team made by sealoo which has seen excellent tour success. The comments about pex sound weird to me; it’s seen top 10 usage in tour play, and gliscpex (along with a ton of other balance cores) have seen good usage with a high winrate. There are also multiple replays in ndbd of not just balance being used but also as a playstyle that’s able to consistently perform against pivot around a ton of threats in the tier rn. BO is obviously still excellent, but balance’s usage in recent tour play makes me believe it is undoubtedly the best playstyle.

FirstlyMe · Mar 22, 2025

Ineros said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-820646
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2301999821-1v0x70mfwthcfm3r6we25k9kubg6yjmpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-820395
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2301464155-vidl7xgm45rvc6gysuugb31s3v2lb4opw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-820054?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2298868007-nwwdpjkm11x7nslw4nyi5o2gwnp3t7dpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-819236

These are only just a fraction of replays from ndbd where gliscor and balance in general has performed well, win or loss. It’s an extremely consistent playstyle that has seen a huge uptick in usage in tournament play, and gliscor’s effectiveness and success in gaining momentum and forcing progress for a team is what makes balance really consistent against a ton of offense / Bo playstyles. It isn’t S- for no reason; if you use the standard spikes toxic eq tect with max spdef then you will gain insane mileage against more than half of the meta already. There is not much that exploits gliscor because heavy offense / ho is rarer nowadays in favor of balance / Bo structures that gliscor loves to play against. There has also been a ton of usage of gliscpex ferro Ghold on balance cores mainly due to the mono aids team made by sealoo which has seen excellent tour success. The comments about pex sound weird to me; it’s seen top 10 usage in tour play, and gliscpex (along with a ton of other balance cores) have seen good usage with a high winrate. There are also multiple replays in ndbd of not just balance being used but also as a playstyle that’s able to consistently perform against pivot around a ton of threats in the tier rn. BO is obviously still excellent, but balance’s usage in recent tour play makes me believe it is undoubtedly the best playstyle.

I really appreciate you taking your time to kindly explain it to me.
I said pex isn’t that common based on ladder usage, I haven’t been seeing it too frequently there.
Your points further backed up by replays are highly convincing, I’ll try to use gliscor balance a bit more myself to get the verdict.
The last time I used I paired it with z-lando, MLatios and band Hamu sooo, maybe using normal stuff can change my view.
Ik M Latios isn’t particularly niche btw.

FirstlyMe · Mar 22, 2025

Forum has been pretty dead lately so I decided to add another post to it :)
I can’t like, revive it out of the blue so yeah..

Offensive Landorus
:sv/landorus-therian:

I’m practically an expert at offensive Lando sets (that’s a fucking lie, I have like a 60% overall win rate with offensive lando teams I have, probably less). There are 2 particular sets I want to talk about, Rockium Z AOA and SD flyinium Z.
Now out of the 2 I believe SD flyinium Z to be the better set without debate, rockium Z AOA just isn’t good in general. It’s just scuffed scarf without the scarf and a one time nuke you don’t even get to use half the time, or at least can’t use to it’s full effectiveness. Unboosted rockium Z can miss out on a lot of otherwise easy KO’s like zapdos for example (252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 362-428 (94.5 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO). Rockium Z AOA really struggles against fat structures from what I’ve seen, it doesn’t even do a guaranteed 40% to mons like skarmory (252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 129-152 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) and Chansey (252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 282-332 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). Why not try SD Rockium Z? Well, outside of Z I’ll need to rely on stone miss, and I personally would love to use a stab 2 turn move which is far more consistent than a useful coverage which is a bit inconsistent on Z sets. A 2 turn move is bad, yes, but with SD it does solid damage against mons like ferro even as well unlike the infamous phantom force or outrage, no type is immune to flying, it can only be resisted, and let’s not talk about Z (+2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 418-493 (118.7 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Even SD lando struggles a bit with fat structures but it can more confidently take on blissey/Chansey and as always, it loses to skarm. The set I’m using is Sd/fly/eq/knock but it’s fine to replace knock with stone edge, I just really want consistency as I’ve already lost games due to perfectly timed bleakwind misses. In my opinion having a 1/5 chance to miss is more important to patch up than a 2 turn move with a 1/20 chance to miss. I’ve swept slower BO teams with this lando set and I love it and will continue advocating for it. If you want a team, here it is:
:landorus-therian:

https://pokepast.es/12af5ba9c121501a

Note that the above sample struggles a bit with sun but the matchup is still very much beatable. Also I should mention I’m not the best team builder.. at all.

uncommon abbreviations:

AOA- All out attacker

Vlarcheops · Mar 25, 2025

Given a NEW survey came to light, after we welcomed Roaring Moon with open hands and kicked Dragapult out of National Dex OU, I wanted to share my ideas for the recent state of the metagame:

- Enjoyment[8]
➥ I really like how the NDOU metagame actually is right now. It is mostyl (very) fun, and while there are some annoying Pókemon along with their superb sets to deal with, they are not impossible to break through nor countering it, people just have to keep these Pókemon in mind in the teambuilding. Moreover, I think teambuilding is quite free as long as the team itself is viable.

- Competitveness[8]
➥ After the ban of Dragapult, while "unfortunate" for some people, freeing the teambuildind capabilities of players more. while some Pókemon feel polarizing in the NDOU metagame, there's still no proof they are beyond broken (or having no counters or challenges), having counters and their own problems all around.

◆ Now let's look at the Pókemon! I'll keep it short with my thoughts about them, why they are balanced/broken in my opinion.

:Gholdengo:

[2]
➥ Do I find Gholdengo annoying sometimes? Yes. Is it broken? No. Sure, while NOBODY enjoys getting paralyzed by Thunder Wave from this thing and its typing combination doesn't make it easier for the opponent to wear it down. Also its offensive capabilites are further bootsed with Nasty Plot and Z-Moves (Fightium/Steelium/Ghostium-Z). However we have couners such as Landorus-T, Kingambit and Ting-Lu, who are excellent in their own right.

:Kingambit:

[2]
➥ I already talked about Kingambit in my post of the ban of Dragapult, but I´ll try to get to the chase. Kingambit, being left without Terastalization, is weak to the Fighting types in the NDOU metagame like Great Tusl, Urshifu, Iron Valiant and Zamazenta. Plus there's Molters, having a 30% chance to causing burns to Kingambit, which it loethes. Plus it has STAB Flamethrower. Fighting coverage is practically everywhere: Focus Blast, Fightium-Z, Body Press and even Vacuum Wave.
• Link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/post-10477997

:Zamazenta:

[2]
➥ Like Kingambit, I talked about Zamy in my post about the ban of Dragapult. But to keep it short, IronPress is the set that pushes Zay over the edge for some players. while that can be the true, it has its counters. Excluding the 4MMS sydrome (it can't carry all the coverage it wants), but we have Zapdos and Moltres if Zamy doesn't have Stone edge (and even then, it can either miss or does't even kill), Clefable and Iron Valiant if no Heavy Slam and Gholdengo if no Crunch (even then, it can take some Crunch)
• Link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/post-10477997

:Tapu Lele:

[2]
➥ Tapu Lele, while incredibly strong and versatile, has its challenges. If you use Choice Scarf, you are faster, but you are locked into a move, while also lacking strong power. If you use a Z-crystal, it'll happen that you won't have any move for a Pókemon tha COMPLETELY walls you (Gholdengo, Aegishlash and Shedinja). Gholdengo serves as the ultimate counter for Lele, and even if it has Hidden Power Fire (or Shadow Ball, but it almost never seen), it has no problem to shrug it off.

:Ogerpon-wellspring:

[1]
➥ I don't have any problems with this thing, neither it is broken or out of hand... You have ferrothorn, Corviknight (and Skarmory), Iron Valiant; Roaring Moon and Zamazenta that can take care of it. Even decent Pókemon like Venusaur-Mega and Pecharunt could couner it VERY well.

:Gliscor:

[2]
➥ While VERY tedious and annoying to deal with, I never see Gliscor as broken or uncompetitive (EXCEPT Poison Heal) in this metagame, let alone in a metagame without Terastalization. Sadly, its designed to make the opponents rip their hair apart and it does its job prerfectly. Ice coverage (Hidden Power Ice, Ice Beam, Ice Fang/Punch/spinner) and Water coverage (Ivy Cudgel, Surf, Hydro Pump) are in every team excessable, so you have to play around it carefully, it's not like you DON'T have something to threaten it.

:Roaring Moon:

[2]
➥ Since you have either a Z-Crystal, a Choice Band or a Choice Scarf, you will be weak to hazards, being VERY popular this generation. The presence of Zamazenta with STAB Body Press, Ferrothorn, Landorus-Therian with Intimidate deosn't make some moments for Roaring Moon any easier. Don't forget about Moltres with Flame Body and Will'O Wisp, Zapdos with Static and Rocky Helmet users. Fairy and Fighting Pókemon roaming aroun in this metagame is also a con of many for our ancient dinosaur.

Here are my taouts! Do you agree/disagree with some of my opinions? I won't mind!

:Zamazenta:

See ya! Stay safe! :Zamazenta:

Do NOT ban Zamazenta!

He is the GOODEST boy!

Moyashi · Mar 25, 2025

New survey what dis

Enjoyment and Balance: 7 (no option for in between scores but I'd put it at a high 7 if I could, skewing towards 8)
The tier overall has felt much improved post Tera as we've now had many months without it, and I've felt more confident in how I voted at that time. There is not really much that stands out as a potential issue overall, and it's been nice to see the metagame shift from the early hype (and fear) over ZardY structures into more varied structures. That being said

:Ogerpon-Wellspring:

4
Sputnik covered this pokemon in a post not that long ago, but I'm just gonna hop into that convo and pretty much agree. It's the only pokemon to me that still stands out as unbalanced, and it's arguably gotten better post Tera as now teams can't load up emergency Tera grass or dragon types to try and slow it down. With just SD, STABS and a coverage move like Superpower or Play Rough, there's not much that can comfortably take it on after it's boosted up. Ferrothorn answers Play Rough variants while Mega Latios and Dragonite can answer Superpower variants but the threat of both options means you cannot rely on just one check. Zama is a soft check to Wellspring and the newly unbanned Roaring Moon is a decent offensive check, but the former is only a very short term check and faces the same conundrum as it did during the Tera era: if Zama eats a crit on that first switch into Wellspring, It ceases to be a check after that first in. Roaring Moon meanwhile is overwhelmed by hazards from Wellspring's team and also is one Superpower/Play Rough predict on the switch from dropping it. It's possible to revenge kill but so is just about anything, and the pressure this puts on building in reality is just unpleasant as slotting a fat grass is awkward and sucks, and being pressured to run Mega Venu on bulkier teams just to avoid being rolled by this just gives me nasty flashbacks to the Walking Wake meta. It's something I think is still broken and I'd support tiering action on it in the future.

:Gliscor:

3
Had to think about this for a bit but I ended up settling on 3 for both (being real it's a low 3 though, like 3.1 or 3.2 if you could give it that). Zama is a premier fighting type in the tier and was even pre Dragapult ban, but only got better afterwards. Iron Press is one of the most "must respect" wincons in the tier and while counterplay exists (Moltres, Hurricane Zapdos, Galarian Slowking, Haze Toxapex, EP Landorus-T, Tornadus-T, bulky Gholdengo) it's a very potent force. I don't think it's broken at all at this time, but it's something I think to pay attention to for now.

As for Gliscor, this mainly just stems from the potency of the Gliscor teams that have dominated for a while now. It's difficult to punish it for Spiking since our common defoggers are all vulnerable to Toxic and the one pokemon that isn't, Corv, isn't very good (cough Ghold). Breaking through Gliscor defensive cores is difficult when they're so easily littering the field with hazards, and it can sometimes feel frustrating to find an answer in the builder that can pressure these teams well. I don't know that I'd say this mon is broken or necessarily problematic, but its success and effectiveness is something that should be watched to see how the metagame adapts to it.

:Gholdengo:

2
The rest of the mons on the survey I only threw a 2 at the most. I don't find any of these to be issues or close to one at the moment. Gholdengo is terrific and brings a lot of potent tools to teams, but the main issue last time it was around was its power over balance teams thanks to Tera+Bulky NP and now that it cannot Tera, balance and general bulky teams have more reliable ways of pressuring it and limiting it in battle. Roaring Moon freshly unbanned from Ubers is a really good pokemon, but I don't find it overbearing in battle or the builder. There's enough checks and soft answers to it, and while it's a very efficient pokemon at breaking open holes, I don't think it does so at a level that's unbalanced or unreasonably so.

Kingambit I know has gotten some complaints and I respect the opinions of others, I just personally don't see it as an issue. If you dislike its ability to knock so well and break for itself to sweep later, I can understand that being annoying, but we've got no shortage of good fighting types and bulky pokemon to check it so I don't think it's overwhelming. And Tapu Lele, I'd probably say is the highest "2" of these, maybe closer to a 3 in hindsight, but right now I think the meta is adequately prepared for it and its possible to handle fairly.

Heatranator · Mar 26, 2025

Did the survey, time to do the scores.

Enjoyment/Competitiveness: 6
Definetely better then Tera meta, but there is a lot of work to do. Defensive structures feel MU fishy, primarily Balance teams, as it feels that you can't account for all the threats in the tier reliably.

:kingambit:

4
Now, I'm not talking about SD, that's mostly fine. What I am talking about, is pursuit. Pursuit gambit is incredibly cancerous, as unlike other pursuiters who have some restriction (m-ttar takes the mega slot, weavile is frail as balls, scizor and m-scizor struggle to fit it), gambit has none of these. If you have a pursuit weak mon, you are probably going to have to forfeit it. It also forms disgusting cores with special walbreakers such as m-yard and tapu lele. I've had to start to run fightinium z glowking and the such to help beat gambit, which may be a cool tech, but it heavily constrains slots.

:gholdengo:

2
Annoying ass mon, but mostly fine. Can be annoying against certain teams, but you can usually manage via offensive pressure.

:gliscor:

1
Never felt like I've struggled against this ngl, any ice coverage move it doesn't expect just rips it apart. Does better against slower teams, but honestly this is one of the more dealable pokemon for those teams. Terapagos also being an amazing spinner helps to combat its spiking prowess by threatening it with ice beam. Smart pivoting is the main way to combat this mon by not just immediately switching the defoggers in.

:ogerpon wellspring:

4
If you don't have something like full defense ferrothorn or tangrowth, prepare to get fucked by this mon. Others have talked about this mon above, so I'm not going to repeat what they said. Dumb mon, ban it.

:zamazenta:

1
I've found this mon to be completely fine. Stuff like zapdos and moltres check it, garchomp can trade with it via toxic+rough skin, glowking can take its hits and future sight. Just in general, it feels easy to have natural checks to this mon. AOA honestly I get scared more by since stone edge or ice fang chunks a lot of targets (I even saw psychic fangs once to beat pex), but it was still dealable with.

:roaring moon:

2
Can be annoying to deal with late game, but there is usually enough checks and counters to this that the moon player does have to do a lot to get moon to sweep.

:tapu lele:

3
Honestly, fuck this mon. Having to deal between specs and CM (scarf is mostly fine) is incredibly annoying. If I switch to something like glowking to take a hit and then pivot to something else thinking its specs, but it clicks CM, then I'm kinda screwed. Just an overall dumb pokemon to deal with, but that has always been the case with lele.

Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

Dahness

this poison dream

Comett7778

slopcat

there is yet more to come

FirstlyMe

ant4456

FirstlyMe

AM

ant4456

slopcat

there is yet more to come

hidin

Moyashi

about15gals

I'd like to be able to do the work I'm paid to

SHOSPLE COLUPIS

ant4456

Runo

deserved taste

slopcat

there is yet more to come

FirstlyMe

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased

FirstlyMe

Ineros

Witch girl with moonlight in her veins

FirstlyMe

FirstlyMe

uncommon abbreviations:

AOA- All out attacker

Vlarcheops

Moyashi

Heatranator

The Magma before the Storm

Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

this poison dream

there is yet more to come

there is yet more to come

I'd like to be able to do the work I'm paid to

deserved taste

there is yet more to come

Bono My Tires are Deceased

Witch girl with moonlight in her veins

uncommon abbreviations:​

AOA- All out attacker​

The Magma before the Storm

uncommon abbreviations:

AOA- All out attacker