Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[sealoo]

^ i dont think that team had a bad kyurem mu necessarily, at least vs the more standard set (SubRoost). My primary line for it was teleporting with slowking (takes about 40ish) into scale chomp with dice + also had zama to come in a few times in the back, but that plan got blown up by a modest ebelt set which has many shortcomings vs other things which is why it isnt the standard -- thats just tournament innovation cant be too mad about it.

I dont really like kyurem, i think it demands quite specific prep from bulkier teams because it is very difficult to limit its entry on balance staples that kinda just need to be used in order to deal with the rest of the meta (glisc / pex / alo / whip knock ferro) while requiring very little skill to use (this is immaterial but just more of a qualm of mine; it is really difficult compared to other balance breakers ala sd oger / dd z nite to "outplay" a kyurem with balance vs an opponent of roughly equal skill)

However, I think kyurem is a fine presence all things considered despite my personal distaste from a more objective lens, and this is coming from someone who has definitely played vs more kyurems in tournament than anyone else, as keeping these balance teams honest feels like a healthy trade overall for an otherwise incredibly strong archetype

--

Kyurem discussion aside, I think the meta is still in a pretty balanced state currently and have enjoyed playing / building in PL & FL

 

[Genjaja]

As the pioneer of the metagame discussion who revives this thread. I believe everything 1yr has said is true Volc sets are completely broken dnite and pex being the only mons who can beat it and even then volc can 1v1 them. The negatives impact of what ghold does far outways the good. Kyurem isn’t broken however it is a very punishing Mon.

Sorry to my peers who actually know me. I had a horrid couple of days so I’ve been on vacation chilling.

Polaro will win last chance and we will win Circuit.

 

[Comett7778]

Volc is most definitely ban worthy. Sub swarm is just stupid and negates most typical volc counters. Hell I’ve broken a Heatran with sub swarm before. And its other sets are cheesy matchup fishes, they’re not broken but they add nothing valuable to the tier in my eyes.

Also if volc is banned then maybe deo-s could be resuspected which is what I really want

 

[FirstlyMe]

Volc is most definitely ban worthy. Sub swarm is just stupid and negates most typical volc counters. Hell I’ve broken a Heatran with sub swarm before. And its other sets are cheesy matchup fishes, they’re not broken but they add nothing valuable to the tier in my eyes.

Also if volc is banned then maybe deo-s could be resuspected which is what I really want

Volc’s been in some hot water for a while now

Ngl I can see subswarm’s lack of coverage making it more widely accepted as not broken in the future.
Am I saying it’s fine in the tier?
No but also kinda yes. I feel pretty neutrally about Volc. I just spam power gem Tran and scarf shifu tho so maybe that’s why…..

But for subswarm in particular, power gem Tran, roost dnite and scarf shifu as long as the Volc hasn’t set up too much are fine checks.

But then, look at this calc:
+2 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 678-798 (94.9 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

I am slightly leaning towards thinking It’s Ban worthy.

To me Volc has always felt like a “team checker” on ladder alongside the likes of weather and the late dragapult, like it makes sure your team can deal with it, if your team get’s 6-0’d by Volc 9 times out of 10 then it is a bad team (against volcarona in particular at least).
Pult’s set guessing game and similar substitute shenanigans was annoying as fuck and I wanted it gone from the tier but I think volc’s kinda fine.
Especially since volc’s sets are pretty similar other than coverage. It’s not a Woger situation where it’s like cudgel then whatever 3 moves you want or a pult situation where you can be specs, wisp/twave + hex, dd, band, etc.
Few may run psychic, few may run subswarem, few may run standard qd/fire stab/Giga drain/hp ground.
But 2 moves are always locked in and that gives more than enough of a rough idea on what to do there (psychic is kinda underwhelming and is barely real).


Off topic here but fun fact: Volc get’s u turn. So I got the bright idea of making an Offesnive pivot set. Am I cooking with this?

 

[Toxic Ariados]

I really don't think Volcarona is banworthy in the slightest. People seem to exaggerate the effectiveness of Z sets. Now, I am personally a huge Boots Volcarona enjoyer so feel free to take this with a grain of salt. They are certainly strong, don't get me wrong on that, but those Z sets that are apparently all the rage have such a huge weakness to hazards. You have to dedicate a good amount of your team to hazard removal to hopefully keep Stealth Rocks off for long enough so that Volcarona can come in without taking that agonizing 50+%. And with Gholdengo in the format, hazards are harder to keep off than ever before. Even Terapagos, the best spinner in the format, will end up having to trade with Gholdengo and lose it's Tera Shell which allows it to get revenge killed much more easily. Other spinners like Tusk and Treads are at risk of being mindgamed by Gholdengo, creating scenarios which won't always ensure that hazards come off of their side.

I feel like people also forget that Swarm Volcarona drains its HP to get into range. Sure you'll probably take an opponent down with you, but now you are extremely open to priority moves, being at like 25% of your original health. Even with it's sheer firepower, a Volcarona running only 2 STAB attacks can get messed up by so many popular things right now. to name a few. Odds are you won't break past a full HP Heatran or a Sp.Def Moltres mashing Hurricane on you. It feels like this set relies on pristine conditions to actually achieve the amount of destruction people are saying it can. You have to assume hazards are not on your side, found an enemy you can Substitute and Quiver Dance on (sometimes more than once), and that the opponent doesn't have anything that can take both of Volcarona's moves. Even after you take an opponent out with your Swarm boosted Z-Move, you are left extremely open to any form of priority due to being in Swarm range. Z Volcarona will probably take down one enemy Pokemon before being threatened by some form of priority or Scarf user due to it's low health.

Sub Swarm Volcarona is really more deadly in a vacuum than it is in practice. It's still strong but you would need perfect conditions to realistically achieve the destruction that some people are describing. You are basically saying that the Volcarona will have hazards off 90% of the time, find an enemy where it can safely Substitute and set up on, and furthermore, drain it's HP down to less than 33% and not be revenge killed by the next Pokemon coming in. There's just too many variables to consider in a real match, which is why I don't think it's a broken Pokemon (and why I usually stick to classic Heavy Duty Boots sets).