Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Untrue_reality]

PS: Retest <-- this guy. It was one vote away from being unbanned and in my opinion, wasn't really broken at all. I think it's a low priority task, but it's worth another chance after everything else has been dealt with.

heavy agree w this and a bit of a hot take but i wouldn't totally mind seeing genesect (maybe burn or whatever) test either personally

 

[ecxdee]

Oh look, a new survey just popped up! Here are my answers.
​

Enjoyment: 9

I personally like the state the format is in right now. I'd say it's close to being perfect. Nothing feels too overwhelming at all. There's some annoying stuff out there like Gliscor and Kyurem but they are beatable with a good strategy. I don't think I've ever had this much fun playing National Dex before, banning Tera was the best thing to ever happen to this format.

Competitiveness: 8

I put competitiveness at an 8 because it's Pokemon. It won't be a perfectly competitive game and there will always be techniques to try and cheese a win. Sleep moves are the first thing that comes to mind when I think of cheesy mechanics. I don't know if a suspect test on Sleep as a whole is possible, but I think it would be nice. Sleep Clause is okay, but sometimes you can get robbed by some gimmicky Z-Hypnosis set or whatever. Maybe this is just my ladder player bias coming out, but I hate running into stuff using Z-Hypnosis, it's just gimmicky cheese that forces you to keep something in the back as Sleep fodder, and it's even worse when the Hypnosis misses on your Sleep sack and they capitalize on that and set up on you anyways. Luckily cheesy Sleep gimmicks are extremely uncommon, and stuff like Spore and Yawn have limited distribution and aren't too hard to play around, though Sleep in general is quite uncompetitive and I wouldn't mind seeing it go. Everything other than that is perfect to me, which is why I put competitiveness at 8.

Kyurem: 1

Kyurem is annoying but not unreasonable to play around. I quite like its presence (mostly because it absolutely trolls Alomomola) and how it can punish overly passive plays. Kyurem can force the opponent to act more aggressively, which I think is nice as it allows progress to be made more easily. It has very exploitable flaws such as its Stealth Rocks weakness as well as struggling to slot all the moves it wants. Sub + Roost is annoying but it can be worn down and punished due to its lackluster Speed and constant need to find openings to heal. Dragon Dance sets are also very cool and something I really want to use more.

Gholdengo: 1

Gholdengo is incredibly strong and incredibly annoying, but it's weighed down by the incredibly exploitable Speed stat that it has. It's slower than many offensive Pokemon in the format, and even some defensive Pokemon. Nasty Plot sets struggle to deal with more aggressive teams, but tend to excel against slower teams. Even then, many defensive teams can probably afford to slot Alomomola, Kyurem, or Tusk to handle it. Gholdengo is great, but definitely not overwhelming.

Alomomola: 1

I hate this fish with every fiber of my being, that being said I gave it a 1. I seriously despise this thing and how easily it can shrug off pretty much any attack in existence, but I have to appreciate its defensive qualities. AV Alomomola helps quell a lot of the strong Special Attackers we have in the format like Charizard Y, Gholdengo, and Volcarona, all while pivoting out to something that can deal with them. But it can be worn down by hazards and constant chip. Wish Pass sets are equally irritating, but are much weaker on the Sp. Def side. Alomomola is also incredibly prone to Knock Off, and that move is incredibly prevalent in National Dex. The presence of Ogerpon Wellspring also means that clicking Flip Turn isn't so free as one might think. As much as I hate going up against this Pokemon, I think it's a healthy presence overall and shouldn't ever be considered for tiering action.

Volcarona: 2

I could never really get behind the Volcarona hate, if you scroll up you can see my opinions on Volcarona. Nevertheless, I gave it a 2 because I can understand why people hate this thing and I understand its strengths. I personally think it's totally fine though, and that the arguments against Volcarona are a bit exaggerated. To use the funny Z set you need like two slots dedicated to removal, and if that fails then Volcarona takes an agonizing 50% from Stealth Rocks. HDB sets are nothing new either, they're strong but beatable unless the Volcarona has the perfect answer to your team's core. We've dealt with Volcarona for generations now, I don't really think it's any crazier than it was before.


PS: Retest <-- this guy. It was one vote away from being unbanned and in my opinion, wasn't really broken at all. I think it's a low priority task, but it's worth another chance after everything else has been dealt with.

This is almost exactly what I put. I agree, this meta finally seems to be settling down post tera and moon, and almost nothing feels broken. I did, however, place volc a little higher because I think it is worth a suspect, even if I'm not entirely sure it's broken. I don't agree with the deoxys part though, it doesn't provide anything to the metagame and just adds yet another broken setup+z move to the list of mons to prepare for. Not something the meta needs.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

This is almost exactly what I put. I agree, this meta finally seems to be settling down post tera and moon, and almost nothing feels broken. I did, however, place volc a little higher because I think it is worth a suspect, even if I'm not entirely sure it's broken. I don't agree with the deoxys part though, it doesn't provide anything to the metagame and just adds yet another broken setup+z move to the list of mons to prepare for. Not something the meta needs.

The way I see it, if a Pokemon doesn't really hurt teambuilding or playstyles in any significant way, then there's no good reason for it to be kept locked up in Ubers. I thought Deoxys was totally fine when it was introduced, if you see otherwise than feel free to vote against it. People (including myself) were rightfully angry when Deoxys got shelved after such a close vote. So I think a Deoxys retest would be nice after we knock down everything that people mentioned on the survey. If it turns out to be broken after Dragapult and Moon were removed then so be it, I think it wouldn't hurt to try it out once more, though.

 

[Runo]

People (including myself) were rightfully angry when Deoxys got shelved after such a close vote. So I think a Deoxys retest would be nice after we knock down everything that people mentioned on the survey. If it turns out to be broken after Dragapult and Moon were removed then so be it, I think it wouldn't hurt to try it out once more, though.

The metagame is not the same as it was when Deo-S was originally suspected, which means new justification should be required for it to be let into the tier again. You don't get to skip this part of the debate because a vote from nearly a year ago was close. Nothing is owed to you at this point, especially if the sole reason for doing so is essentially just saying "let's see what happens" and people more or less admitting it provides little positives to the metagame. If we are going by this logic, this is just tiering for fun to pass the time at best and borderline terrible precedence at worst (hey Mega Blastoise, Zygarde, and Zacian didn't get a fair shake either, let's test them and see what happens!!). It is not council's job to alleviate people's boredom with the tier.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

The metagame is not the same as it was when Deo-S was originally suspected, which means new justification should be required for it to be let into the tier again. You don't get to skip this part of the debate because a vote from nearly a year ago was close. Nothing is owed to you at this point, especially if the sole reason for doing so is essentially just saying "let's see what happens" and people more or less admitting it provides little positives to the metagame. If we are going by this logic, this is just tiering for fun to pass the time at best and borderline terrible precedence at worst (hey Mega Blastoise, Zygarde, and Zacian didn't get a fair shake either, let's test them and see what happens!!). It is not council's job to alleviate people's boredom with the tier.

This is fair as the vote was a little under year ago. The meta has changed quite a bit since then and I'm more than happy to accept the meta we have now. It's probably just personal bias but I am a little frustrated that a Pokemon that should've been unbanned based on tiering policy got shelved and hasn't been looked at again. This isn't something that I want to happen "for fun", it's something that I think should happen based on the awkward events of the first Deoxys test.

Anyways, to shift the topic to something more current... how do we feel about Gholdengo? I personally gave it a 1 on the survey but I've seen quite a lot of people gripe about it. So, all you Gholdengo haters (or lovers), what makes you loathe (or love) this Pokemon? I personally like how easy it is to slot on your team and how it can be a good offensive and defensive piece at the same time. I've also been experimenting with Electrium Z sets to annihilate AV Alomomola who gets way too comfortable switching into Gholdengo.

 

[kidd0s]

This is fair as the vote was a little under year ago. The meta has changed quite a bit since then and I'm more than happy to accept the meta we have now. It's probably just personal bias but I am a little frustrated that a Pokemon that should've been unbanned based on tiering policy got shelved and hasn't been looked at again. This isn't something that I want to happen "for fun", it's something that I think should happen based on the awkward events of the first Deoxys test.

Anyways, to shift the topic to something more current... how do we feel about Gholdengo? I personally gave it a 1 on the survey but I've seen quite a lot of people gripe about it. So, all you Gholdengo haters (or lovers), what makes you loathe (or love) this Pokemon? I personally like how easy it is to slot on your team and how it can be a good offensive and defensive piece at the same time. I've also been experimenting with Electrium Z sets to annihilate AV Alomomola who gets way too comfortable switching into Gholdengo.

Jack of all trades Mon that has no walls (except from clod who is bad rn except on stall). ghost/fighting coverage / modest steel z pops everything. A lot of faster mons either can’t switch in repeatedly or just don’t wanna trade with it if they switch into a plot so you gotta pivot in your ghold killer but literally nothing consistently pivots on Gholdengo except av mola.

 

[sh0shin]

The metagame is not the same as it was when Deo-S was originally suspected, which means new justification should be required for it to be let into the tier again. You don't get to skip this part of the debate because a vote from nearly a year ago was close. Nothing is owed to you at this point, especially if the sole reason for doing so is essentially just saying "let's see what happens" and people more or less admitting it provides little positives to the metagame. If we are going by this logic, this is just tiering for fun to pass the time at best and borderline terrible precedence at worst (hey Mega Blastoise, Zygarde, and Zacian didn't get a fair shake either, let's test them and see what happens!!). It is not council's job to alleviate people's boredom with the tier.

tbf ariados wasn't saying outright that this should be done out of boredom, but that it's worth a look once the current slate of controversial mons is addressed. to my knowledge, NDOU roster has not changed all that much since the end of 2024, though obviously the meta has somewhat warped around a handful of mons.
the particulars of the "why" would not even be relevant right now til we see if there is an upcoming suspect on one of the survey mons, which could reshape the tier in its entirety, should anything change. the statement on deo-s reads more to me as a passing comment than an entitled whine, is all.

personally, i put something like 8 enjoyment 6 competitive and 3's across the board on mons but honestly i think i did this in haste. i'd bump up competitiveness and bump down the suspicious mon scoring. i like the tier overall though i understand the frustrations for sure.