Announcement National Dex Suspect Test 5: Frogman

[Jordy]

Hallo everyone! Ash-Greninja is one of five Pokemon that were banned a little over a month ago. You can find more about that and the post detailing why Ash-Greninja was banned here. After giving National Dex some time to settle and following some discussion in this thread and a vote afterwards, the council has unanimously decided to suspect test Ash-Greninja down from National Dex AG.

Suspect Test Reasoning

Since Ash-Greninja was banned, the National Dex metagame has undergone many changes. Many potential checks such as Toxapex, Assault Vest Tangrowth, and Tapu Fini are much less constricted now than when Ash-Greninja was in the metagame. Beyond that, natural checks such as Hydreigon and Blissey have risen to prominence over the past month and a half. Ultimately, with checks to Ash-Greninja being less constricted by the state of the metagame and other checks rising in prominence, Ash-Greninja should be easier to deal with. With this suspect test, we will reassess whether Ash-Greninja is too much for the metagame following these developments.

Suspect Test Information

• You must reach an 79% GXE with 35 games minimum on the National Dex ladder on Pokemon Showdown! in order to attain voting requisites.
• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NXGREN. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NXGREN Jordy.
• You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
• If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. This can range from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
• The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Ash-Greninja, will be allowed on the National Dex ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks. This suspect test will last until August the 30th at 11:59 PM GMT+1.

 

[Jordy]

Suspect Test Rules

• You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
• No uninformed one liners or posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
• No discussion on the suspect test process.
• Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
• If you fail to follow these rules, you may be infracted without any prior warning.

If there are any questions, feel free to PM myself or Jho. If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team.

 

[Jordy]

This thread will be locked for 24 hours. Reqs can be posted here.

Tagging Kris and The Immortal for this to be implemented!

 

[Jho]

This thread is now unlocked! Please be sure to read the rules carefully before posting.

 

[JasonOfTheBest21]

Personally as for me(and probably tons of other people) ashgren isnt problematic by itself. It only becomes a huge problem when its paired with mons such as Urshifu and Gdarm. With those mons ash gren becomes much more deadly as the checks to ash gren have to strain to be able to cover both mons. Compound that with the fact that gren can spike up for further chip & therefore making progress. But with Urshifu and gdarm gone, ash gren becomes much more manageable, expecially since the meta is changing to favor it a lot less. The recent popularity of hydreigon and blissey doesnt irreleventize ash gren, but it hinders it a lot. Blissey can avoid the spikes from gren, where as hydreigon and tank anything and just roost off the damage. So personally,I think gren doesnt need to be banned. Although with the rise to blissey and hydreigon, maybe zprotean sets will be more used.

 

[Seucra Lockhart]

Im sorry but how is hydreigon a check too ash greninja,does it not carry ice beam?Also what has caused hydreigon to rise,last time i check it was in nat dex UUBL

 

[Fc]

Since I got reqs for this test already I feel a bit more confident talking about this, although I will probably have to play a bit more to fully decide since I'm very new to nat dex ou as a meta. I used ash gren in every game to get the reqs, specifically on rain for almost every game and an ho for like 2 games. Never did I really feel like ash gren was overwhelming to the point of being broken, even with good support. It became the biggest threat naturally when its teammates were able to break it's checks and wear them down to the point of getting battle bond. Before it transforms. gren is fairly underwhelming in terms of power when trying to pressure it's checks and counters. The power level is very high in this tier though, so its teamates can easily pressure and overwhelm defensive teams to get it to clean late game, and that is the situation that it thrives in. I do see it as similar to gen 7, where it is a very good pokemon with insane power when it can transform and get going with exerting pressure from itself and it's teammates, it just has relevant checks that probably will just have to see a bit more use, but doesn't feel as restricting on building as say something like g-darm.

Mons such as av tang, sp.def tapu fini, sp.def ferro, toxapex, av magearna, and boots blissey are all able to defensively check it very easily, and most can easily heal off the damage quickly. Offensively, there's rillaboom, venusaur in sun, mega lopunny, dragapult, and scarfers like kartana, serperior, and hydreigon who all pressure it after becoming ash gren, and before that there's things like tapu koko who threaten it. Greninja has no shortage of ways to be dealt with, but offensively it leaves a huge mark on opposing offense due to their lack of direct switch ins to every hit gren wants to throw out. There's also the threat of dark pulse flinches on most of those mons which does make it much harder to check 100% reliably, but a small hax chance doesn't make it broken. It obviously is one of the strongest breakers in the tier, but like most breakers that aren't too overwhelming for the meta, it has it's checks and counters. With all these things said, I think currently I lean towards the side of do not ban on ash greninja. It is one of the best offensive mons in the tier, but is not overwhelming enough to warrant a ban at this time imo.

 

[theotherguytm]

Im sorry but how is hydreigon a check too ash greninja,does it not carry ice beam?

No it does not, Ash-Gren runs Surf or Hydro Pump/Water Shuriken/Dark Pulse/Spikes. The coverage lets it beat less than stacking Spikes or having access to a second STAB.

Also what has caused hydreigon to rise,last time i check it was in nat dex UUBL

It's only been a top 5 mon in the meta for the last 6 months or something, but Nat Dex ladder be wack.

Ash-Greninja is inherently a difficult Pokemon to evaluate because it is essentially two Pokemon at once. Regular Greninja without an Ability, which is not a particularly effective or powerful Pokemon, and full Ash-Greninja once Battle Bond has triggered, which is like having a second Mega Evolution on your team that can also hold an item. How Ash-Greninja tends to perform in practice is therefore somewhere between these two extremes. Exactly where is difficult to say, which is why how broken it is or isn't is an issue.

I have two main gripes with this mon. Firstly, it has basically no bad matchups. It's an excellent Spikes setter thanks to how many switches it forces, which is a trait that is never not going to be useful. Against defensive teams it is a terrifying wallbreaker once transformed, with the capability to break through its own checks by setting Spikes for them. Against offensive teams, transformed Water Shuriken is a 60 BP STAB priority move that dumps on any would-be sweeper and its natural speed lets it revenge kill many threats.

But that's the thing. Notice how many times I said "once transformed". If you can keep Ash-Greninja from transforming, it automatically is a much more bearable threat. Its absurd speed becomes merely "ok". It lacks the power to KO a lot of walls. However, often if Ash-Gren is going to win a game, it's a matter of "when" it is going to transform, as opposed to "if". Many of its checks lack or rarely use recovery (Hydreigon, Tapu Fini, and the currently unpopular AV Magearna). Others are prone to it stacking Spikes for its own later gain (Fini and Magearna again, AV Tang). Plus its high speed makes it a perfect revenge killer. Each time you get a kill with a mon that loses to Gren, your check has to be able to take at least two Dark Pulses or Hydro Pumps, and will probably be taking at least one. And saccing a mon to an untransformed Ash-Gren is simply not an option most of the time, something that becomes especially painful for offensive teams, because that's how they'd ideally deal with it. Eventually, unless the rest of Ash-Gren's team is folding so fast that it has to be sacced first, something will die to it. It's just a matter of when.

So, against offensive teams something will eventually get sacced to it whereupon it will abuse its speed and priority access to clean up. Against defensive teams, it lays down Spikes that it can force its checks to switch into, then finishes them off once they are weakened, dismantling the remaining team in seconds. I would not be happy fighting this without two checks on my team, either one defensive pivot and one offensive Water-resistant check, or two defensive mons.

My second gripe comes from this last point. I am happy to say that it just about is not broken. It's impossible to wall indefinitely, but it can be walled for long enough to break down its team. However, I'm not convinced that it returning will not be unhealthy for the metagame. The threat of it transforming often warps games around itself, to the point where other breakers have a chance to slip through the cracks. A second mon putting pressure on an Ash-Gren check can be deadly.

But thinking on an even bigger scale than this, Ash-Gren, as any top metagame contender will, changes the course of games it is not even part of. I'm not referring to the Protean VS Battle Bond mindgames here, since after one move is used it is obvious which one you're dealing with (though this still can be an issue). I'm talking about the constraints it imposes on teams in the builder, which then restricts preparation for other top threats. Of course, any top mon will do this as a matter of fact. But Ash-Gren does it on another level entirely, and brutally punishes you for underprepping for it.

If Ash-Greninja returns, it WILL be a top threat. There is no denying that. So thus it must, as a matter of course, change the way the tier is played. I don't think the decision to be made here is "Is Ash-Greninja broken?" because I think the answer is (just about) no. Sure it locks in a certain set of trends that would otherwise be fluid, but it's far from unmanageable.

I think the real question here is "Does the inclusion of Ash-Greninja change the tier for the better?" And I have honestly no idea what the answer is.

 

[Zneon]

Got the reqs godbless.

So Ash-Greninja. I feel the OP covers why I want it to be unbanned. The metagame has developed to a point where special walls such as Specially Defensive Toxapex, Tapu Fini and AV Tangrowth are significantly easier to fit onto a team, with Mega Metagross and Urshifu-S gone, two Pokemon that paired amazingly with one another, especially the former, I feel Ash-Greninja is a Pokemon that is significantly easier to deal with on its own, as its dominance and overwhelming presence was a product of the meta if anything, rather than a problem with Ash-Greninja as a Pokemon in the metagame. What does this mean?

Ash-Greninja is a Pokemon that is neither broken or unhealthy. Ash-Greninja isn't overwhelmingly good at its role by any means, and this role isn't unique, it's simply a powerful special wallbreaker that can do a lot against certain teams when used right, but that doesn't make a Pokemon broken, and Ash Gren simply doesn't fit into that category whatsoever, in my eyes I don't even think it did the last time it was still allowed. As for it being potentially unhealthy, that could happen but I doubt it, on it's own I don't find it to be a Pokemon that constrains teambuilding or put you at a disadvantage, without a good check or counter to it it's going to be a pain to deal with yes, but that's the same with every top tier Pokemon, and Ash-Greninja has many checks available in the current metagame and they are easier to fit onto a team than ever before. Hydreigon is one of the best Pokemon available, and Heavy-duty Boots Blissey is surging in usage right now, both not only tank its hits incredibly hard but are immune to Spikes and they are both prominent Pokemon in the current meta, while it doesn't add anything positive, it doesn't add anything negative in my eyes and in a balanced metagame such as this, I can't see Ash-Greninja being an issue anytime soon.

So yeah I feel Ash-Greninja is balanced in the metagame and I will be voting for it to be unbanned unless someone can convince me otherwise. Thanks for reading!

 

[sanguine]

I wanted to post some quick thoughts on Ash Greninja:

I believe Ash-Greninja should not be unbanned, and here’s why:

I. Advantage States:

Ash Greninja due to its access to Spikes and insane ability to force switches, and the lack of good removal that can also switch into it, can easily put its team in advantage states by clicking Spikes. This not only raises Ash-Greninja’s threat level by a major amount, but the entire rest of its team merely by existing and being played well. Moreover, it puts opposing players in a bind where they either waste a turn removing hazards and potentially letting it or another dangerous teammate in, or have to play aggressively around the hazards and risk having their core chipped down too much to actually check Greninja or its teammates. I don’t believe something that can place such a large advantage in game for one side or the other is healthy for the metagame

II: Defensive Counterplay

Defensive counterplay to Ash Greninja exists, but they all have major flaws that can be exploited by it or its teammates. Blissey is arguably the hardest counter in the game, but is Spikes bait (which isn’t too bad considering Teleport and HDB admittedly but is still a problem due to things like Ash Greninja + Physically Attacking Teammate), only goes on specific balance builds, and is eventually forced to use Soft Boiled after two switch-ins, which can leave the door open to a teammate, which can be especially problematic with Spikes on the field. Non Baneful Bunker Toxapex / Mega Venusaur / Hydreigon are more splashable but are all susceptible to a singular Dark Pulse flinch with Stealth Rock on the field, have to be near full to switch-in well, and similar to Blissey, their turns wasted recovering are open windows for an advantage state with a teammate. Toxapex can get away with this more easily than the other two because it can simply pivot into a dark resist, but baits in Spikes harder than almost anything else in the tier and is forced to waste a turn recovering or clicking Baneful Bunker if hazards are up. Tapu Fini is a special mention, as it can deter Spikes reliably, but it struggles in the long term, loses the tempo using Defog, and I’m not entirely convinced it’s good in non Ash Greninja scenarioes. Other options like Amoonguss, AV Tang, Ferrothorn, and Gastrodon exist, but all combine two or more flaws of each of the above mentioned, such as susceptibility to one Dark Pulse flinch or Spikes and in the case of the first two specifically, not exactly being super good compared to other options in non Ash Greninja scenarioes.

III: Offensive Counterplay
Offensive Counterplay to Ash Greninja is almost non-existent. Ash Greninja’s high Speed and Special Attack in addition to strong priority in Water Shuriken leave reliable offensive counterplay in a short list of Lopunny, Medicham (but only after Greninja has taken a lot of chip), Dragapult, and Scarf Hydreigon / Kartana (if healthy). With the exception of the two dragons, these are all themselves susceptible to being revenge killed by a Water Shuriken after some chip damage or while in rain, and they all struggle with Greninja in the long term and can only come in off risky doubles / sacks (which gives transformation and makes everything infinitely harder)

IV: What does this all mean?:
The inherent flaws in most means of counterplay mean that teams will be forced to run multiple checks and soft counters to Greninja or risk just losing with the slightest amount of offensive pressure. This will lead to Greninja players always having the advantage in teambuilder and on preview because they can always select partners to take advantage of whatever checks / counters are popular at any given moment to form dangerous offensive cores that take advantage of those checks / counters with little drawback. With this in mind, I don’t think an unban will have a healthy effect on the metagame.

Thanks for reading, have a wonderful day, and remember to social distance / wear masks / vote left of center in your nearest election.

- faded

 

[Joefrostbite5322]

So, ash greninja. Honesty, its not that bad. Yes it was s tier and yes it is good but the problem with ash greninja is that it becomes dead weight when you don't kill something. But even if you do kill something there are checks and counters to ash greninja, First off it doesn't run ice beam anymore so hydreigon can switch into it easily since spikes are useless against hydreigon, blissey and chansey completely wall it and magearna is still here. If anything ash greninja out of the 5 that got the boot is honestly pretty balanced and not broken. Also thanks to the teleport buff blissey can easily pivot out of greninja and send in a pokemon that can easily revenge kill it. If anything ash gren only uses like one set which is easy to counter whereas normal protean gren is one you need to think about. Also scarf hydreigon outspeeds ash greninja as well.
I think it should be unbanned because two of its greatest partners mega metagross and urshifu are gone. Torn is also gone so hazards can be a problem and darm is gone at the moment too. That's not to say greninja doesn't have any other partners but the ones that make it busted are gone from the tier.

 

[Padstar34]

If you asked me about 2 weeks ago if Ash-Gren should be allowed back, I would respond with a resounding no. However, after using it for a while I came to realize its faults. The first is that it is a fairly momentous task to switch in Gren without a slow pivot. Greninja is massively frail, which means it struggles to switch in on quite literally anything. Another issue is that the meta has become a lot more unkind to it since its ban. This doesn't mean its bad, per se, but rather it finds checks and counters more often than before. Hydreigon is one of the best mons in the tier, Blissey is quite a common face on many balance teams, AV Tang, Kommo-o, AV Amoongus, AV Magearna, Tapu Fini and Spdef Pex+Ferro are also good counters, and this doesn't begin to mention its checks. Due to its massive frailty It is fairly easy to check. For example, Lopunny, Kyurem, Serperior, Rillaboom, Mega Venusaur, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Not to mention some potent scarfers such as Kartana, Hydreigon yet again, the occasional Lando T and Dracovish. Along with its frailty coupled with a struggle to switch in, if Gren does not get a kill and therefore doesn't go requiem, you are left with something that is a relatively dead weight and is much easier to handle. Now I think that Gren will be fine and I will be voting for Gren to be unbanned.

 

[Ryuji]

About Ash-Gren :
For me, he should remain in AG. Because the main reason for a ban is that the questionned mon is restricting the teambuild. And he is.
Beside, all the check that he have, he can easily wear done them, since stuff like Ferro/Kommo-O/AV-Mag doesn't have a great recovery. There's also the issue of Stack Hazard with Spikes. For example, he can get a 2HKO on Growth with 3 Spikes, for example.
The question is what good and what bad he will bring on the meta. Since when you played against him the question isn't IF but WHEN he'll get a Kill, for me he'll bring nothing good. And the fact that he need a kill to do the job doesn't mean that the Base Form is easy to handle. Base Form Gren still have an excellent speed tier, and with specs, he's capable of hitting hard.
There's also the fact that the next DLC is coming. And Gren will get Nasty Plot. With that in consideration, I'm not sure that he need to be retest, especially since the next DLC come in 2 month.
For me, this mon should stay were he is, and I will be voting for Gren to be Banned

 

[NuttyRabbit]

About Ash-Gren :
For me, he should remain in AG. Because the main reason for a ban is that the questionned mon is restricting the teambuild. And he is.
Beside, all the check that he have, he can easily wear done them, since stuff like Ferro/Kommo-O/AV-Mag doesn't have a great recovery. There's also the issue of Stack Hazard with Spikes. For example, he can get a 2HKO on Growth with 3 Spikes, for example.
The question is what good and what bad he will bring on the meta. Since when you played against him the question isn't IF but WHEN he'll get a Kill, for me he'll bring nothing good. And the fact that he need a kill to do the job doesn't mean that the Base Form is easy to handle. Base Form Gren still have an excellent speed tier, and with specs, he's capable of hitting hard.
There's also the fact that the next DLC is coming. And Gren will get Nasty Plot. With that in consideration, I'm not sure that he need to be retest, especially since the next DLC come in 2 month.
For me, this mon should stay were he is, and I will be voting for Gren to be Banned

Just a quick correction here: nothing we've seen from leaks or otherwise indicates that Greninja will get Nasty Plot, and even if it did, tiering is not done based off of what may or may not happen, but rather what is happening now.

Also so this isn't a one-liner, I'll just give my quick take on things since I also got reqs recently. I think Ash-Greninja is still a fantastic Pokemon in this metagame thanks to its excellent speed tier, great STAB combo, raw power, and ability to generate momentum incredibly easily in most given scenarios. If it were to come back, it would no doubt still be a top 10 Pokemon.

However, that being said I think that there's quite a few factors that would allow Ash-Greninja to return to the meta and be far healthier than it was a few months ago. To start, it lacks the incredibly effective partners it had just a few months ago that allowed it to easily wear down its defensive checks (I.e Darm-Galar, Mega Meta, Torn-T, Urshifu-S), making it so that Pokemon like Toxapex, Hydreigon, Spdef Clefable, and Tapu Fini are more reliable long term checks to it than they were in the meta in which it was banned. Second, not only have the aforementioned checks gotten better due to a variety of factors, but new checks in the form of HDB Blissey and Grassy Glide Rillaboom have also skyrocketed in usage, making it easier than ever for teams to both defensively and offensively check Ash-Greninja.

Finally, while the decrease in hazard control has benefitted Ash-Gren insofar as making it easier to exert pressure with Spikes, it also has resulted in making it far easier to get chip on Ash-Gren/making it harder for it to come in consistently which, when combined with the rise in checks to it, makes it harder to make consistent progress.

For these reasons, I believe Ash-Greninja could fit comfortably back into the current metagame and thusly, why I will vote for it to be Unbanned

 

[Jordy]

After spending some time taking various perspectives into consideration, I ultimately believe that Ash-Greninja is fine in the National Dex metagame and should be unbanned.

Ash-Greninja is ofcourse an amazing Pokemon, but the National Dex metagame has plenty Pokemon that can deal with it defensively and even some offensive checks. Pokemon such as Blissey, Hydreigon, Tapu Fini, and cores like Toxapex + Clefable are naturally really good and tend to fit into teams pretty well already, and they also happen to be some of the strongest checks to Ash-Greninja. I think the current prominence of Blissey is especially worth highlighting because Ash-Greninja tends to generate turns for Blissey and that can be very punishing when it's paired with Pokemon such as Mega Medicham, Dragapult, and Kartana.

Beyond defensive checks, there's definitely a variety of solid offensive checks available too. Mega Lopunny, Dragapult, Rillaboom, and some Choice Scarf users like Kartana are very effective at keeping Ash-Greninja in check offensively. Because of these Pokemon and the fact that they are fairly easy to fit for more offensively oriented teams, I don't think Ash-Greninja makes using those kinds of teams too difficult. This counts for bulkier teams too; it's not like you have to rely purely on defensive Pokemon to keep Ash-Greninja in check. Even if they do end up getting overwhelmed, there's enough other Pokemon available that can keep it in check.

I realize that most of this is fairly obvious and that listing checks and counters to Ash-Greninja won't convince anyone as to why it should be unbanned, but the point I'm trying to make here is that there are plenty of Pokemon readily available to keep it in check, and it's not like they're specifically forced onto teams because of Ash-Greninja; most are already great Pokemon. Ofcourse Ash-Greninja will make it so that these Pokemon and cores must be fit more often, but this is true for mostly any Pokemon and I don't think Ash-Greninja warps teambuilding to a larger extent than other Pokemon such as Cinderace, Dragapult, or Mega Lopunny do, to name a couple examples, which I also consider to be fine right now.

Lastly, I would like to address how Ash-Greninja puts the user into an advantageous position. This is true; it forces a lot of switches because of the fear of letting it transform and it can easily capitalize off that with Spikes and double switches, but I would also like to argue that this does not put the user so far ahead at any point that it's overwhelmingly hard to come back from. Ash-Greninja's progress through setting Spikes can be reset fairly reliably with our current entry hazard removers. Tapu Fini can obviously switch into Ash-Greninja directly and Defog away Spikes, but other Defoggers like Corviknight and Zapdos cannot; they are not sturdy enough to take Ash-Greninja on. However, they will often find opportunities to switch into play. The opponent can attempt to outplay this, but as can you; it goes both ways. This is pretty hard to put into words, so I'm sorry if I'm not entirely clear. The point im trying to make is that Ash-Greninja does indeed often put the user into an advantageous position, but it still leaves room for the opponent to outplay and I ultimately believe that that's fine.

tldr; Ash-Greninja has enough convenient defensive and offensive counterplay available, and while it does tend to put the user ahead, it doesn't put the user ahead too far to the point where the opponent cant outplay it. I do not believe Ash-Greninja is too much for the metagame and will be voting to unban it.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Honestly the fact that Ash-Greninja forces walls like Toxapex and Ferrothorn to run more Specially Defensive spreads is the reason why pokemon like Dracovish and Cinderace feel so powerful right now. To put it bluntly, yes Ash-Greninja is not broken. Is it healthy? Fuck no. Its sad seeing pokemon like Dracovish and Cinderace brought up for discussion despite them clearly not being the issue in the slightiest. Dracovish was never consider to be actually broken before the Ash-Greninja suspect but now it is. Can you guys stop pretending that this is a issue with them. Just because something isn't broken doesn't mean that its healthy.

If you haven't already guested I'm pro BAN. This thing has made hazards even more difficult to deal with consistently. I personally liked the post ban metagame. Besides the hazards setters being a little OP it had a lot of options that made it quite free team building wise. Ash-Greninja only worsens the worst part of the post ban metagame. I should note that every single pokemon that has been brought up that can deal with Ash-Greninja have flaws.

- Vulnerable to lures like Z-Heatran and Z-Hydreigon and is basically useless if it gets Knock Offed.
- Does it wall Ash-Greninja? Yes. Does it stop it from laying down hazards? No.
- Exploited heavily by passive abusers like Clefable, Gliscor and Toxapex.
- Worn down considerably by the Hazards Greninja can just lay down when it comes in. Dark Pulse flinches are another issue with it.
- Max Specially Defensive Clefable takes 44% to 52%. As it Soft-Boileds you can exploit this turn by going into a Clefable abuser. Oh and in the rain it takes 67% to 78% and when it goes to Pex you can switch in Swampert and now Pex is in a shaky positioning (Or if the water is Fini go into Manaphy and basically kill something) and Clefable is now at half health and can't switch into anything.
- Can they revenge kill Ash-Greninja? Yes. Can they switch in at all? No.

Overall I just can't see what benefit Ash-Greninja brings to the metagame except centralizing it around its Choice Specs set and making Hazards even harder to deal with.

 

[NXGREN Slippery]

I believe Ash-Greninja should not be unbanned.

Firstly, his strong priority means he is already a good cleaner. At least Rillaboom's priority is resisted by 7 types, but greninja's priority is only resisted by 3. It also can stack spikes on pokemon it is walled by, and it's not practical to constantly bring in a defogger to lose momentum. You might say that he has to go through his weak base form first, and that is a fair balancing point. However, chances are you will have at least one weak pokemon on your team after maybe 10 or 20 turns, unless you're running stall. With this, greninja forces too many switches to fit in this metagame, and easily racks up spikes on pokemon that switch out. Not to mention that its power with specs, even before transforming is decent, allowing it to threaten prominent pokemon like Heatran, Gliscor and Landorus-T.

Secondly, you have the chance of being hit with an ice beam or gunk shot that you have to play unfair mindgames with your opponent, simply because you can't see it coming. It's also difficult to scout for, given Ash-gren's infamous power and neutral coverage with hydropump.

Thirdly, its ridiculous speed means its only practical revenge killers are scarfers (which aren't too much of a problem because you can usually switch into something that resist their attack), Mega-Lopunny and Dragapult. But these guys cannot switch in safely, especially with Gren's great STAB combination.

Fourthly defensive counters are no surefire play either. One flinch from dark pulse on toxapex, and it has to switch out with regenerator to let it try and wall ash-gren again, allowing it to KO another pokemon. Blissey stops your pokemon from being KOed by it, but it doesn't stop spikes at all. Fini might seem good, until it gets worn down from its lack of reliable recovery outside of leftovers, knock offed, or lured into a powerful Z-move. Kartana can also very easily switch into fini and spam leafblade for free boosts and damage.

Furthermore, if ash-gren remains banned, it would be in line with the 5 bans earlier this year, that were made to make the metagame healthier, because of too many centralising threats. Ash-gren will ALWAYS be a centralising threat, if it is allowed back into the metagame, forcing less diverse team compositions, and forcing certain mons to be specially defensive, making them weaker to physical attacks like Lando, Garchomp, Mega-Medicham, Dracovish, Kartana, and Cinderace. Having pokemon that are better than one another is one thing, but having pokemon that force you to run multiple checks, and make your checks significantly weaker to other threats on the physical side, like Dracovish, Kartna and Medicham is unreasonable.

To conclude:

Ash-gren is too centralising for the metagame. It forces many switches, racks spikes up on those switches, and can usually capitalise on one weak pokemon or another. With its ridiculous speed, it can KO half a team, especially since even if dragapult and lop come in, they can get walled by clefable and toxapex respectively, allowing ash-gren to switch out freely. Dark pulse's flinch chance may seem small, but it is extremely useful when facing defensive counters, like toxapex. Ash-gren has always been S-tier in OU, and it will be S-tier, and very overbearing in natdex OU, if it's unbanned, forcing people to have multiple checks, just for this one pokemon.

Thank you for reading, if you made it all the way through.

 

[Jordy]

Ash-Greninja has been unbanned from National Dex! Voting can be found here.