Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion

[Anchor9]

besides taunt
my team does not get taunt

For any Lugia, all you really need to do is bring out something like Arceus-Water or Fairy and pull a fast Toxic on it before it can Sub and it’s pretty easy to kill from then on out. Toxic versions are a useless team slot against Eternatus and Arceus formes with Refresh. Thunder Wave versions can be annoying especially if the opponent is loaded with bulky sweepers like Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, CM Arceus formes, and Zygarde. It’s very passive though since Aeroblast or Air Slash does -100 damage each turn. It’s pretty much Primal Groudon set up food too. If you have a priority user like Arceus, slap Recover (or better yet Taunt. Just use Taunt) and let that get Thunder Waved and swap it in every time Lugia tries to paralyze another teammate. Para is actually very beneficial because here being paralyzed will preserve PP. Aeroblast PP will go down very quickly and Air Slash does -200 damage. Chip can easily be healed up using Recover. And you can set up, forcing Lugia to guess between Whirlwind or Thunder Wave as you waste its PP. Lugia will waste the majority of its PP doing nothing, meaning it will eventually be forced out.

But the best counterplay is Taunt. If you put an Arceus- Fairy or Water on your lineup with Calm Mind, Taunt, and Recover, Lugia practically becomes your win condition since it cannot do anything if it’s Taunted, Aeroblast does no damage especially with Calm Mind boosts, and you just heal off the damage with Recover.

 

[Cancel cult]

For any Lugia, all you really need to do is bring out something like Arceus-Water or Fairy and pull a fast Toxic on it before it can Sub and it’s pretty easy to kill from then on out. Toxic versions are a useless team slot against Eternatus and Arceus formes with Refresh. Thunder Wave versions can be annoying especially if the opponent is loaded with bulky sweepers like Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, CM Arceus formes, and Zygarde. It’s very passive though since Aeroblast or Air Slash does -100 damage each turn. It’s pretty much Primal Groudon set up food too. If you have a priority user like Arceus, slap Recover (or better yet Taunt. Just use Taunt) and let that get Thunder Waved and swap it in every time Lugia tries to paralyze another teammate. Para is actually very beneficial because here being paralyzed will preserve PP. Aeroblast PP will go down very quickly and Air Slash does -200 damage. Chip can easily be healed up using Recover. And you can set up, forcing Lugia to guess between Whirlwind or Thunder Wave as you waste its PP. Lugia will waste the majority of its PP doing nothing, meaning it will eventually be forced out.

But the best counterplay is Taunt. If you put an Arceus- Fairy or Water on your lineup with Calm Mind, Taunt, and Recover, Lugia practically becomes your win condition since it cannot do anything if it’s Taunted, Aeroblast does no damage especially with Calm Mind boosts, and you just heal off the damage with Recover.

I didn't even know Lugia ran aeroblast and substitute. this changes everything. thx.

 

[Pigbeeef]

besides taunt
my team does not get taunt
the team in question:
https://pokepast.es/483a0cdbfb286ec3
the only one who can get taunt is my arceus. it needs swords dance and extreme speed for obvious reasons, earthquake to kill zacian, and shadow claw to kill marshadow and giratina

try Sunsteel strike over stone edge or earthquake, or maybe just use an offensive Solgalium-Z set I guess. sunsteel strike bypasses multiscale

 

[Cancel cult]

try Sunsteel strike over stone edge or earthquake, or maybe just use an offensive Solgalium-Z set I guess. sunsteel strike bypasses multiscale

I really appreciate this advice, but unfortunately I need stone Edge. I can't give up such an important tool for such a niche matchup.

 

[WooperParatrooper]

some comments i want to make are
-one guy on ladder ran poison jab ferrothorn as a floober copium and it entirely goobs gothitelle (boowomp)
-gothitelle in the current environment from my experience cant effectively trap both special and physical attackers as it kinda needs both cosmic power and confide to effectively wall special attackers

Gothitelle is terrible even with shadow tag and nobody can change my mind

 

[Moyashi]

Not sure how this will go over was im the first newer player to post however, I think Lugia could be really strong. It loves heavy-duty boots and Groudon getting spikes decreases its passivity with its ability to click whirlwind. And now that calls gone and Yveltal is not as relevant I think it could eb strong.

Yveeltal is still insanely relevant, with or without Caly around. It's super flexible and very splashable, and if anything is better now that Xerneas is banned. Lugia's complete lack of damage output and dependance on multiscale is what makes it passive and very exploitable. The presence of NDM is also a major issue for Lugia.

 

[WooperParatrooper]

Yeah I agree Yveltal is very much still relevant. Also, Lugia is overrated casually, although it's not completely without use (like maybe i could see it on a hazardstack kind of team?) but if you take a look at other common "defensive" mons like Ho-Oh and NDM they all also have decent attacking stats. For example, I think Lunala is comparable to Lugia in terms of having the same ability, a recovery move, and similar bulk/typing but has a base 137 Spa (compared to Lugia's base 90).

 

[adem]

some comments i want to make are
-one guy on ladder ran poison jab ferrothorn as a floober copium and it entirely goobs gothitelle (boowomp)
-gothitelle in the current environment from my experience cant effectively trap both special and physical attackers as it kinda needs both cosmic power and confide to effectively wall special attackers

how does pjab ferro even beat goth, it does no damage and when it does eventually poison goth can just rest, and it doesnt do much damage regardless since its a normal poison and not a badly poison
it can trap special attackers without confide, just not all of them (and even then a good bit of them run taunt). but thats why goth isnt broken, but you are still extremely underrating its utility lol, as non taunt special attackers still have it down to a crit effectively, and with taunt those attempts are usually extremely limited.

Gothitelle is terrible even with shadow tag and nobody can change my mind

ok

Yeah I agree Yveltal is very much still relevant. Also, Lugia is overrated casually, although it's not completely without use (like maybe i could see it on a hazardstack kind of team?) but if you take a look at other common "defensive" mons like Ho-Oh and NDM they all also have decent attacking stats. For example, I think Lunala is comparable to Lugia in terms of having the same ability, a recovery move, and similar bulk/typing but has a base 137 Spa (compared to Lugia's base 90).

i dont think you understand how big a difference 47 special attack is with a good high bp stab. lunala is horrid in a tier that is plagued by taunt, status, and entry hazards, and does nothing of worth that other mons dont do better

 

[Dahness]

I have followed the teachings of Adem and have come to a great conclusion...Chien Pao is a beast.

Not only does it have a very nice stab combo-being able to hit the likes of NDM,Unecro,Etern,Groundceus,Giratina and many more, it also has a nice speed tier, being able to outspeed even offensive eternatus and deal heavy damage to even the more defensive mons, while threatening nasty icicle crash flinches.In the spoiler below i will leave some really nice calcs.

pao calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Kyogre: 195-229 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Eternatus: 500-590 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 283-334 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I find this mon to be the most effective on spike and stealth rock stacking teams, as just the mere fact it comes in can force some really desperate switches out of your opponent, helping chip their team even more, making it easier for pao to clean the team later on.

 

[Anchor9]

I have followed the teachings of Adem and have come to a great conclusion...Chien Pao is a beast.View attachment 625844
Not only does it have a very nice stab combo-being able to hit the likes of NDM,Unecro,Etern,Groundceus,Giratina and many more, it also has a nice speed tier, being able to outspeed even offensive eternatus and deal heavy damage to even the more defensive mons, while threatening nasty icicle crash flinches.In the spoiler below i will leave some really nice calcs.

pao calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 166-196 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Kyogre: 195-229 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Eternatus: 500-590 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 283-334 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I find this mon to be the most effective on spike and stealth rock stacking teams, as just the mere fact it comes in can force some really desperate switches out of your opponent, helping chip their team even more, making it easier for pao to clean the team later on.

Pao gives me a lot of Marshadow vibes. They’re both hard-hitting glass cannons that have an absurd amount of coverage. While it might take some exploration, I think Pao has some niches that could put it on a similar level to Marshadow. In fact, depending on your team you would rather have Pao over Marshadow. First off, doing better into Yveltal is a huge one with a resistance to Sucker Punch and STAB Icicle Crash. Outspeeding Eternatus is also huge, because this means you can’t be forced out like Marshadow can. Chien-Pao also hits way harder thanks to Sword of Ruin. There are a couple downsides too. You do pretty badly into Arceus, which Marshadow usually always forces out. Chien Pao also does a bit worse as a revenge-killer, as being locked into Sucker Punch as a Band set is dangerous and Ice Shard does less than Shadow Sneak from Marshadow. While it doesn’t matter as much, Marshadow is a bit bulkier than Pao. Really interested in further developments with Pao though.

 

[Dahness]

Pao gives me a lot of Marshadow vibes. They’re both hard-hitting glass cannons that have an absurd amount of coverage. While it might take some exploration, I think Pao has some niches that could put it on a similar level to Marshadow. In fact, depending on your team you would rather have Pao over Marshadow. First off, doing better into Yveltal is a huge one with a resistance to Sucker Punch and STAB Icicle Crash. Outspeeding Eternatus is also huge, because this means you can’t be forced out like Marshadow can. Chien-Pao also hits way harder thanks to Sword of Ruin. There are a couple downsides too. You do pretty badly into Arceus, which Marshadow usually always forces out. Chien Pao also does a bit worse as a revenge-killer, as being locked into Sucker Punch as a Band set is dangerous and Ice Shard does less than Shadow Sneak from Marshadow. While it doesn’t matter as much, Marshadow is a bit bulkier than Pao. Really interested in further developments with Pao though.

Funnily enough, i have a team i really like that uses them both and it's exactly what u said.Marsh comes into the various arceus forms and threathens big damage, while pao helps out with the other mons.One thing the ice cat does that i find pretty nice is the fact that it straight up deletes zyg or at worst it forces it to tera

 

[bumboclaat]

Building Balance in the Post Era
​

I had initially planned to make this post a month ago about building balance during the Xerneas era in NDUbers, but IRL commitments and the vote concluding quicker than I expected did not leave me with enough time to make the post I wanted. I decided to wait to see how the meta changed with Xerneas' absence. In the time since Xerneas was banned the meta has been substantially more enjoyable in regard to both building and playing. I've built with some of the things I wanted to and still have a lot left on the list. From a building perspective, not having to handle Xerneas and friends has been the most pleasant change. I had a lot of teams over the last year because they either were too Xerneas weak or handled Xerneas well but crumpled to some other big meta threat. The freedom in the builder currently is significantly higher relative to the same period of time after we banned Koraidon.

The Slot​

When I start building a new team it is frequently because of a specific set or mon that sounds interesting at the time or one that I stumbled across on the ladder that felt fun to build around. Regardless of what mon the team is based around Primal Groudon is a constant so my muscle memory at this point is to type in Primal Groudon after clicking the new team button. It is the best mon in the meta and will be on the team anyways so may as well slap it on there. Though Primal Groudon has a billion sets, most balance teams are only going to be interested in 2: defensive and utility SD. Anyone possessing the slightest familiarity with me or my teams is going to know defensive with Overheat is my preference. While I had had a couple of balance teams with utility SD Pdon those that have remained balance teams have tended to switch over to the defensive set after being annoyed at not being able to switch into Primal Kyogre with rocks up.

On the defensive set I am a firm believer that Overheat should be the default option over Rock Tomb. Yes you lose the ability to really deal with Ho-Oh most of the time, but balance teams generally don't struggle with switching into or dealing with Ho-Oh in the first place. Overheat OHKOes with minimal chip if you force it to Tera Grass anyways. Though you sometimes miss the speed dropping benefits of Rock Tomb, Overheat brings a lot to the table in both major and minor ways.

Overheat provides a secondary source of major burst damage which comes in key v quite a lot of Pokemon, but I'll highlight three: LO Yveltal, Marshadow, and Dondozo. Overheat functionally OHKOs LO Yveltal 75% of the time. For comparison Rock Tomb doesn't 2HKO and Yveltal still outspeeds after Rock Tomb unless you invest 8 EVs. Given how dangerous it can be to many balance teams this is often a trade worth making. Marshadow is in a similar situation where Overheat always OHKOs and Precipice Blades never does from full (very small chance after rocks) and is less accurate. Marshadow is another mon thatis a major threat to most balance teams lacking Zygarde so that is also a trade worth making. Dondozo is 2HKOd by Overheat after rocks (or toxic) and while being able to deal with Dozo is amazing it also eases the rest of the teambuilding process as you have a tool to help with stall from the get go and that matchup requires less active attention.

Overheat also roasts TR, NDM, Ferro and is generally good into a lot of what can only be described as tomfoolery on ladder. The remaining two slots are most often a hazard and toxic but they are quite flexible and can be easily tailored to what the team requires. I've been having a lot of fun recently with Dragon Tail. It is Pdon as long as you're reasonable it will probably do Pdon things.

Directional Descisions​

At this point in the process I've decided on a mon and the process of figuring out how to best support it begins. The exact process is always going to be unique to a particular team, but there is a general process I follow. I'll usually start with figuring out the best way to support it defensively since the mon in question tends to be offensively inclined.

Hazard Control​

Any balance is going to need hazard control. Obviously, there are options beyond Ho-Oh and Yveltal, but for most of them I either have not used them, have been unimpressed when I've run into then, or am skepitcal that they are actually decent hazard removal so I'll focus on these two. Ho-Oh is the glue that holds a lot of my teams, and frankly the tier, together. Anyone who has played the tier for more than a day is obviously going to be familiar with how it plays. With Ho-Oh you get the consistent defogging some mons need over the course of a game coupled with great longetivty and the ability to seeming at least soft check most of the tier. Though Ho-Oh felt mandatory in the Xerneas meta on balance it doesn't today and I hope offensive sets continue to see experimentation. Ho-Oh isn't worse today than it was a couple of months ago imo, it still does all the same things that it did a couple of months ago and has had some defensive pressure lifted from it.

Yveltal though worse as a fogger is still a good fogger and has positive matchups into mons Ho-Oh does poorly against such as Ultra Necrozma and situationally Primal Groudon and Marshadow. It also enables different defensive backbones than Ho-Oh which I hope will get explored in the near future. I mean actual defensive Yveltal, not just LO/Leftovers with Defog replacing Taunt.

Creating the Defensive Backbone​

Balance teams currently have the luxury of a wide range of options to help defensively support the team and the mon being built around. There are bountiful options to choose from that will support whatever is being built around and provide additional value elsewhere. However at this point there only 3 slots left on the team and it is impossible to cover the entire meta and some teams may want an additional slot for a more offensive presence. In the spoiler below I've listed some more generalized defensive options though there are, of course, many options beyond what I've listed.

​

Some Common Defensive Options

Pokemon​	Benefits​	Things that can be a real pain in the ass without this mon​
(coil)​	Zygarde does Zygarde things. It is the best blanket physical wall in the game and is flexible in every way. Both physically and specially defensive spreads are excellent. It can do the normal Zygarde things of glaring the whole team and be a wincon but there are a lot of options in that last slot. Dragon Tail and Toxic are quite good as well. Though often useless v stall it is still a good pivot and toxic absorber that can clean if Dondozo is removed.​	-Since zygarde is such a great blanket physical check its presence is missed against stronger physical breakers. Switching into a bandshadow without Zygarde is rough and almost always a guessing game. SD Primal Groudon can be quite deadly in the midgame without Zygarde to phase or glare it. It'll likely get a kill and Arceus-Dark can 1v1 but likely won't be able to check other stuff afterwards if it is doing it alone.​
(defensive mostly)​	Toxic Spikes are great against offence and HO especially. Etern does Etern things. I'm not the biggest fan of defensive sets on a lot of balances though they are amazing on the right team. Thankfully the mon is minmaxed and customizable in both speed and tera so it is easy to slot on a team. I like t spikes on offensive sets as well. It can check Marshadow depending on the set but I perfer Zygarde.​	Toxic Spikes are great v offence, but frankly I'm not the biggest fan of defensive Etern on balance. Offensive Eternatus is a great breaker and good offensive check to things which can give a lot of balances trouble such as Marshadow and Palkia-Horse. I value it more in that role generally and a lot of sets have room for defensive utility.​
(defensive)​	Its here because its decent. Defensive Arceus-Ground is solid at everything but doesn't check a lot that other defensive mons do. It also has 4MSS as it'd like all of Taunt, Refresh, Toxic, Ice Beam, and Power Gem in those last two slots. It'll give you good value, but if you're looking for purely defensive Arceus Fairy and Dark are often better.​	Really some variants of Pdon I guess. Arceus-Ground defensively is a poor check at best to some of the biggest threats that balance teams in Palkia-Horse, CB Marshadow, offensive Pogre, and potentially Ultra Necrozma given that Arceus-Dark cannot be used. It​
(defensive)​	It is a near irreplacable physicall wall. It is the best check to Ultra Necrozma and I'd rather use this than put sucker punch or tera w/ Yveltal most of the time. It checks a lot of the physical meta but can be overloaded and is a dark resist that looses to LO Yveltal which sucks. The status move of choice is also difficult since wisp and toxic each have distinct benefits.​	-A lot of balances fold to Ultra Necrozma without Arceus-Dark, Yveltal, or Marshadow. Arceus-Dark is far and away the best defensive option. It also hardchecks a lot of ladder tomfoolery which is nice. In conjunction with something else it can contain most Zygarde sets as well which is quite nice.​
(defensive)​	Primal Kyogre absolutely goobs most stall with very little support and is opressive to most of the defensive meta. It'll also trade 1v1 in HO matches against some stuff that can otherwise be nuisance to switch into such as Zacian-C, LO Yveltal, and Mega Salamence. It is rarely negative value and feasts on support Arceus formes with one CM and is Ditto Proof. It is a godsend v Arceus-Ground.​	- There are some Arceus-Ground sets that will cleave through a lot of balance teams after some chip or are hard to answer. Primal Kyogre gives a proper answer a lot of these sets and the general bulk generally means it is going to trade at worst in most games. The bulkier the team on the other side the better Primal Kyogre gets.​
(defensive and specially defensive)​	LO Yveltal is a mon that breaks through a lot of balance cores and this is the only good defensive switchin which a lot of teams can appreciate. It is also the only Arceus forme I've liked using as a rocker as it can keep them up v non-HO teams pretty well. Sometimes having a defensive fairy is nice. 96 Timid is my default atm because your Yveltal answer should be able to outspeed it and it isn't worth being kept low in case the yv user goes for taunt. Both phys and special defence are great. SpD also soft checks Palkia-Horse which can be a headache and it is a secondary switchin to specs Etern.​	- Having an proper LO Yveltal switchin is absolutely massive and there is a high chance that Arceus-Fairy is being used because I want to build around something weak to LO Yveltal. Having an actual defensive fairy is quite nice at times. Taunt Rocks is my go to but there is a lot of flexibility there. One of the things that blow about not being Arceus-Dark is Ultra Necrozma. It can tera dark and KO with Judgement anyways as a makeshift check which enables it to remain a Yveltal counter. It does let in Zacian-C very freely so it requires decent counterplay to that.​
More	Niche	Options
(defensive or specially defensive. Idk ask R8)​	The credit goes to R8. Mola has developed into its own style of balance which is pretty good. Being able to pivot, scout, and potentially wishpass to teammates is great. I've only tried physically defensive atm and apparently specially defensive is good as well. Mola doesn't check all the much in particular but provides great support on fatter builds.​	There arn't any huge threats that Mola hard checks. It is great for positioning your actual checks and can sponge some surprising hits depending on how it is invested. I.e. Physdef lives a +3 Zacian-C Wild Charge. It can pivot on a lot of defensive mons and is just a good general sponge. I'm interested to see how the meta adapts to the Mola balance teams that have been popular for a little while now. Credit again to R8.​
( specially defensive)​	It is great on Hstack balances and the best check to offensive Pogre that we have. I've been liking knock over Protect recently but there sure are a lot of games I'd have perferred Protect though. It is a good mon but limited to its own archetype and one you have to build around rather than slapping on. Ferro teams should rarely have issues with Zygarde or stall though which is quite nice.​	offensive can be an absolute menace to a lot of balance teams. Having an actual switchin is really nice. The couple of switches that Pogre has into it is usually enough to put it in range of Ferro itself. With Knock Ferro can beat Ho-Oh long term and it is great into stall. Knock + Seed also means Ferro teams are quite secure against Zygarde as long as Ferro isn't the only measure. It does have the issue of compounding a weakness to Palkia-Horse. Way too many people have been using that recently smh.​
(defensive i guess? I don't use it)​	Should be banned but it isn't. Goth teams are unique and while Gothitelle itself is fishy there are 5 slots to beat what Goth cannot. The ability of Gothitelle to support mons that many balance teams rely on mons such as Pdon or Ho-Oh to deal with enables them clean. Goth is a slight fish, but it is a consistent enough enabler that its presence in the meta is unhealthy. It is good though.​	Nothing really to add.​

​

Offensive Synergy​

Even the bulkiest of balances still require the means to exert offensive pressure. Balance teams have the defensive backbone to support a wider variety of offensive mons than other styles. This is what makes it my favourite playstyle as it is quite fun building a new team to support a breaker. The spoiler below covers most generally good offensive mons.

​

Offensive Mons

Pokemon	General Role	Important Matchups
(SD + SR)	This set does fit on balance teams and is great in the balance mirror. Getting an SD off isn't hard and it is fairly consistent at getting rocks up and threatening a lot of defensive pokemon on opposing balance and bo teams.	SD + SR Pdon is great against balance and decent against bo. However it is not good into stall for the most part and that is something that needs to be accounted for elsewhere.
( or )	I quite perfer offensive Eternatus sets on balance squads. The speed tier combined with that coverage is great and can really blow a whole through the defensive backbone of opposing balance teams. I've been liking replacing sludge bomb with a utility move recently, usually recover or toxic spikes. Specs sets are also super dangerous into many balance teams due to the sheer power you have to rely on immunities or defensive Necrozma-DM as even Ho-Oh doesn't exactly tank it well.	Eternatus is a great midgame breaker in the balance mirror. Outspeeding Marshadow is nice and Etern can switch in for free if it is locked into poltergeist. The Xern ban has made tera dragon a lot more free to use though Zacian-C still exists and Play Rough is the perferred STAB atm. It'll clean a lot of games and occassionally make you want to quit after missing meteor beam. Specs is an absolute menace to a lot of fatter balance squads and is still a headache for balance. Etern it is not fantastic into HO or stall though shoutout to 09-10a for their meteor beam recover set that will put in some decent work v stall.
(whatever its Groundceus)	As long as it has taunt offensive Arceus-Ground can harass a lot of defensive pokemon. Its role is going to depend on what set it uses.	Really depends on what it runs. Between all its possible sets there is at least one with a good matchup into any team style.
( / )	Tera Blast Ground is listed here because +3 CC still doesn't OHKO defensive Pdon unless you greed with Adamant. TB Ground hits Pdon, Eternatus, and NDM among others. You give up the Ho-Oh matchup but can still force a tera which is exploitable. Tera Electric exists as well, but I do not like it. It has some merits but is far too fishy and commital for my tastes. TB Ground is already commital on balance but isn't hard to fit. Tera fight CC is less commital but does have a lower ceiling.	Zacian-C is going to need to be revenged via priority or tanking a hit on most teams so it is decent 'speed control' (using that term very loosely). Great cleaner and sweeper but it is also a great midgame wallbreaker v balance or bo. It'll probably force a tera or grab a couple of KOs. It is a good cleaner v HO and useless v stall unless it runs tera electric at which point it becomes usable but not great. The ease balance teams with fitting mons that are good into stall makes tera electric mediocre at best. The rising prominence of Yveltal and Arceus-Fairy give Zac-C a lot more entry points than it has ever had.
()	If you are not running Arceus-Fairy this is impossible to switch into defensively. Zacian-C is really the only offensive switchin as heat wave is fairly uncommon at the moment. This mon is the main reason why I perfer 96+ speed on a lot of utility Arceus. The more the defensive the team the more LO Yveltal thrives (I usually run knock off). Its biggest weakness is rocks followed by ho. Yveltal is alright v ho but there are going to be a lot of mons that can kill or set up on it.	LO Yveltal is good into anything that isn't HO. I perfer knock but sucker is nice for HO. It just comes in and goes to town consistently on a lot of teams that don't have Arceus-Fairy as mons that would revenge kill such as Etern are not always keen to switch in. It also has a bit of room for bulk investment as it can live a few hits while still outspeeding Rayquaza.
(all)	All Pogre sets have an offensive presence. Defensive sets overwhelm fat and stall quite easily and offensive sets still can, but have to tread more cautiously. However offensive Pogre is a more potent wallbreaker of more offensive balances and bo teams.	Not really much to add here. It was nice that we found a SM spread that handles Yveltal slightly better while living nearly all the same physical hits which is quite nice.
( sometimes BU )	If there isn't a Zygarde on the other side everything is going to be 2HKOed after rocks or without if you tera Ghost when banded. It is the best revenge killer in the tier and a fantastic breaker and cleaner. It is decent v stall though a bit prediction reliant to be a proper stallbreaker for me. BU LO is generally a bit worse at all of the above but is a good cleaner. I'm not the biggest of it on most teams since the LO chip renders it unable to live some attacks such as defensive blades or neutral offensive dynamax cannon after firing off an attack.	Marshadow is the best anti HO mon in the meta. Most mons on HO are put into Shadow Sneak range fairly easily. LO obviously doesn't do as well. Band Marshadow is also a fantastic breaker against BO and balance teams. I've been thinking for a while that Adamant really isn't all that greedy so long as fast CM Arceus are not an issue. It really doesn't lose much in terms of speed tier with 372 Arceus and Ultra Necrozma being the big ones since Mence is nearly always Adamant. If others have thoughts on this I'd be interested to hear them.
()	Banded Rayquaza is pure dopeamine and and at worst a top 3 wallbreaker imo. It is a more exaggerated LO Yveltal. Fantastic speed tier for dealing with the defensive meta but also has significantly less defensive utility. A huge difference between Ray and other breakers is the ability to pivot with zero opportunity cost. Our other main option for a pivot, Yveltal, only fits it on scarf sets as other sets usually perfer another move. Ray is a great lead and mid-game presence while also completely goobing most stall. The Mtar structures that can give LO YV builds a bit of a headache fold to Ray. The most frustrating thing is that Ray cannot safely blow past Zygarde in most situations. When I get around to building with it again in the near future I'll likely experiment with dropping Espeed as that move sucks so much to click. It is useful but I never want to click it and unless it is the last mon I always feel like Ray just gets set up on. Also definitely run some calcs to check if the utility Arceus is Bold or Timid because that makes a huge difference.	Ray is generally decent to great v anything that isn't HO. Espeed is nice v HO but leaves Ray extremely exploitable. Banded Dragon Ascent just doesn't really have switchins. Sure defensive NDM well.. it exists and can be U-Turned on or blown up with V-Create. V stall just keep an eye on Ascent PP. It comes as close to 6-0ing stall as anything does. It just requires minimal support.
More	Niche	Mons
	I'd love to know why ladder has for the first time now is a great time to start using Palkia-Horse just as I've started experimenting with fatter balances that get absolutely goobed by it. It is in the more niche options because of how matchup fishy it is. It is near deadweight v HO and Banded Marsh while being complete deadweight v stall. It still has the capability to completely blow a whole through most BO and Balance teams though. It still blows up the defensive backbone of teams if it hits the right move and is taking an extra mon if it gets a free sub. It fortunate that the matchups it fishes for are fairly common and among the better teams and playstyles in the tier.	Nothing really to add. Needing tera to OHKO Ho-Oh is sad though.
()	To get it out of the way, OTR sets are mid at best and most of the time they could be replaced with WP TR NDM and the team would be better. Caly-I is in the more niche section because it does need to be built around to some degree and though a good breaker is often going to be somewhat limited in terms of what it is able to do in any game. However, it is very consistent in that role and is going to provide some form of value in any given game. The games where it can't do anything are few and far between as v offensive teams it can usually claim 1-2 mons and it goes ballistic v fatter balances and stall, especially with Tera Steel. The cleric support it provides changes the way teams can be played. I've found this benefits defensive Pogre the most as it is able to use rest v offence. It pretty much requires Ho-Oh as a partner as it becomes a huge tera hog with other foggers due to LO Yveltal.	V HO: Great v TR. Against other HO it can trade v something but it is often better to let it sit in the back as its bulk + tera lets it frequently finish games v boosted threats. V BO / Balance: Often it lead in matchups that it appears useless in and will claim a KO against common leads. It is particularly nice v Arceus-Ground and Zygarde, the latter due to trick as you can assume a Zygarde staying in is going to tera. V Fat Balance / Stall: Caly-I really comes into its own v these teams as there is seldomly more than one or two mons that hassle it significantly. Tricking v stall cripples dozo and the slower pace of these teams lets it tera steel to make it incredibly resiliant to passive damage while keeping the rest of the team healthy with Aroma.
()	Lunala is a very good and consistent wallbreaker that finds itself on the niche side due to the support it requires in the builder. Using Lunala mandates proper swithins to Marshadow, LO Yveltal, and Arceus-Dark. This isn't a hard thing to do (Zygarde and Arceus-Fairy are great mons), but does limit the builds Lunala can fit on. However you are rewarded with a breaker that 2HKOes nearly the entire meta. The exception, Ho-Oh requires minor chip, is 2HKOed with Tera Ghost, and is scared of Trick anyways. The speed is fantastic as it outpaces most of the defensive meta though being outsped by Yveltal does suck even if max speed is less common that it has been previously. Though Shadow Shield is obviously amazing, Specs Lunala does not require it to be active to do its job so defogging isn't as high a priority as say Caly-I. It still does appreciate hazards being removed.	Lunala is a great breaker v balance, fat balance, and stall. It has all the coverage it needs + Trick cripples defensive mons if needed. It can struggle a bit more v BO teams as they often have more mons which can deal with Lunala offensively. The same is true v HO, but if Shadow Shield is intact Lunala can trade with most things in a pinch.

​

Dealing with Stall ​

Though stall is a middling and fishy playstyle at best, it still should not be ignored in the builder. Against stall, unlike other playstyles, you either have the tools to break it or you don't. Balance has a naturally good matchup against stall as many mons that are excellent stallbreakers are already run for other reasons. Whether running a more self sufficient stallbreaker or spreading the breaking across the team, there are a lot of options to chose from.

​

Self Sufficient Stallbreakers

None of these mons 6-0 stall by themselves but they require very little support to do so.

Mon	Role in the Stall MU
( w/ knock off)	Some time ago I would have said that this is hands down the best stallbreaker in the tier. Today it is still arguably the best, but has more competition. It was so oppressive to the archetype that Mtar became viable largely as a counter to most LO Yveltal on stall. The gameplan is simple, don't let Yveltal get Toxiced, try to keep rocks off, and don't let Yveltal fall below a threshold that Oblivion Wing has difficulty covering.
(all)	I'm not a fan of offensive sets though I'll acknowledge that they are a big threat to stall, albeit if played incredibly carefully. However, defensive Pogre requires minimal support to crack stall open. Really all it needs is something to absorb a few Confides and Seismic Tosses from Chansey and it is positioned to sweep. It does appreciate help dealing with Dondozo to help conserve PP, but does beat it.
()	If Dragon Ascent had 16 PP instead of 8 Tera Fly Choice Band Ray would hands down be the best stallbreaker. Disregarding tera, the only mon able to avoid the 2HKO is Tyranitar which is also U-Turn fodder. The only thing Rayquaza needs to be aware of is managing DA PP as 8 goes quite quickly, especially if Giratina or Etern are sacked to use up an extra one.
(Knock Off)	If running Knock Off Ferro teams have little issue with winning the war of attrition so long as it doesn't try and take a Sacred Fire. It is a simple mon. Stall has a rough time wearing it down due to Knock + Leech + Spikes and it doesn't invite Dozo in due to Power Whip. Ferro isn't taking down stall singlehandedly but very easily creates gamestates that its teammates can take advantage of.
	Gothitelle is here as sort of an honourable mention. It requires far more support than the mons above to break stall, but at the same time it makes breaking stall significantly easier and less prediction reliant than the mons above. Just remove whatever one mon is in the way of one of Goth's teammates cleaning up and you're golden. Just hope you don't get an untimely crit.

​

Helps v Stall

These mons arn't going to beat stall on their own, but make it far easier for teammates, such as those listed above, to do so. Honourable mentioned to and . Though Marshadow doesn't beat stall it does force sequences which can be taken advantage of or grab some KOs with the right prediction. MMY does have the ability to match up well stall, but doing so makes it so much worse v the rest of the meta. Sets with Focus Blast do annoy stall a fair amount though it does run into longevity issues and will require additional support.

Mon	Role in the Stall MU
(Hazard, Toxic, PB, Overheat)	Overheat 2HKOes Dozo after Stealth Rock or if you've toxiced it. Though handling Dozo is quite big it is more of a nuisance than than a massive threat otherwise and is used for force sequences or double in. It appreciates most Arceus-Dark running FP/Recover/ Refresh/ Rocks nowawdays.
()	It does same thing Ditto does v Stall in every tier since gen 5.
(taunt)	This is a general Arceus thing rather than any specific one as Ground, Dark, Water and Fairy all operate similarly v stall. Taunt essentialy preserves whatever progress you've made while preventing the stall team from making progress as Giratina and Ho-Oh cant meaningfully harm utility Arceus Formes while taunted. CM Taunt/Refresh sets can be good wincons as well.
(Def or SpD)	Doesn't really do anything super special other than being able to pivot into basically anything and keep your other mons healthy with unblockable flip turns. My assumption is that most Alo teams are going to be fine without some dedicated breaker as Alo can keep the mons that do directly deal with stall healthy enough.
(choice band)	Trick, Aromatherapy, Tera Steel. Trick the Dozo or less commonly, Ho-Oh, giving Caly-I a useful item for the rest of the game while crippling them. Tera steel means that only Ho-Oh properly threatens you and Caly-I has a very easy time weaving in and out to keep its teammates healthy. It doesn't break by itself, but enables conditions which make it quite easy to in the long run.
(offensive and defensive)	It doesn't really do anything special v stall but can pivot in v essentially anything and can nearly always fog if needed. It isn't going to win v stall but it does make doing so easier than if using Yveltal.

Dealing With HO ​

Hyper offence in general is the teamstyle balance struggles with the most in my experience though I'd hesitate to call it overwhelmingly negative. Oftentimes the outcome will be decided by who plays better, but there are certainly close to 100-0 matchups depending on the two teams in question. Positioning is everything in these games. Additionally, due to most of the moves in this tier not being 100% accurate, games are somewhat frequently decided by hax.

​

Anti Offence

Mon	Role Against HO
(/)	CB Marshadow is the best revenge killer in the game and is superb into most HO structures. There isn't really much of anything that can safely setup while remaining out of CB Marsh range. The 'big' issue that Marshadow has w/ HO is v Ekiller that can tera. The same applies to a lesser degree to LO sets. I'm not a big fan of most LO sets but they are valid and deserve aknowledgement.
( / )	It is great v non Webs-HO where getting the opporunity to efficiently defog can be difficult against good players. The speed tier is fantastic obviously and it greatly appreciates that is main check on these teams, Pdon, rarely runs defensive investment. Zac-C also loves HO teams that utilize LO Yveltal as a 6th mon to help against fat as removing it alleviates a lot of pressure on the defensive core.
(most offensive sets)	Similar to above thanks to the speed tier. It isn't as good as the above two options due to guessing games with Ultra Necrozma and potentially Zacian-C. However it does outspeed everything else and can easily end games if it gets in and meteor beams. Obviously the recent popularity of Psypsam has not been great for it.
	Similar to stall it does the same shit its done since gen 5. Etern and Zacian-C are great to copy and reverse sweep. Nothing really more to say than that.
	DD sets especially are great v HO. Find one turn to DD midgame and there is a good chance it will be able to sweep. CM is also decent.
( or sucker punch)	Pretty self explanitory. Scarf outspeeds the entire meta and revenges a lot of things on HO. Sucker on LO sets is an option though I'm not a big fan due to having to play sucker mindgames and giving up utility v defensive mons, but it works.

​

​

With the exception of Ferro you're already going to find these mons on most balance teams already. Decided to keep this one a little briefer as I'm a bit tired and a lot of the other things I could mention are either a bit situational or matchup fishy when dealing with HO specifically. Shoutout to Taunt utility Arceus formes, Alomomola, and MMY.

​

Dealing with HO Defensively

Mon	Role V HO
	The sole mon I'd consider a counter to Ultra Necroma. Yeah Yveltal, especially if defensive does a good job, but between Stone Edge and having to use tera Arceus-Dark is much better. It is also significantly better v double dance Pdon and is just quite nice into general ladder tomfoolery. Though Toxic is overall better, I'm a fan of wisp when you can afford it due to the targets it hits.
(defensive)	Generally is going to check something while also being the best Zacian-C answer which is a staple on most HOs. Most importantly it handles tera Ground which beats other Zac-C checks.
(defensive)	Though it isn't amazing v HO it generally is going to get up hazards and die dealing with some big threat.
(defensive)	With good positioning it can and will easily sweep a lot of HOs if it has the right tera and some checks have been weakened or dealt with. Though shaky, it is a decent Arceus and checks Ultra Necrozma / Zacian-C if it isn't switching in. It also deals with Mence which can be a terror otherwise. Overall it is good into HO but will be overwhelmed if dealing with multiple mons.
	It is here because annoys Glimmora and Smeargle leads. Spore immunity + breaking sashes is quite nice though it is rarely going to do much more than be sac fodder later on.

​

Why does that mon have to be on the other side?
​

Every team is going to have specific mons or sets that it has significant trouble dealing with. In the spoiler below I'll go into some of the ones which harass balance teams generally. There are of course mons I've not talked about which are threats to balance teams but this post is long enough already and I hope I've covered most of the big ones.

They're Cteaming me smh

Mon	What makes it so scary
(SD)	There is a pretty gap in speed tiers above 217 that isn't worth speedcreeping for most mons. This makes SD Pdon with a little bit of speed a massive threat in the midgame to wallbreak as by then your opponent will have either knowledge or can make educated guesses about the speed tiers of your own mons. Though every balance team should be able to handle a +2 Pdon whatever mon is tasked with doing so will likely be left at very low health which the Pdon team should be built to take advantage of.
(offensive)	Desolate Land overwrites Primordial Sea so defensive Pdon must be a great Pogre answer right? Yeah uhh...that Ice Beam just did 35% and you've reset the weather but Pdon can only switch in one more time and you've still got a healthy Pogre to deal with so PB isn't doing it and it outspeeds you. You arn't running a Ferrothorn otherwise you'd have switched that in rather than Pdon. So what is the next move? Sac Pdon? Sac something else? Offensive Pogre specifically is pretty oppresive v a lot of balance teams and is likely going to wreck some shit before going down unless you're running Ferrothorn or ig Palkia-Horse? Defensive can be annoying but doesn't hit hard enough to be an immediate threat with a healthy Pdon.
(offensive w/ taunt)	Arceus-Ground in general can be annoying without specific mons but offensive Arceus Ground sets, especially with taunt can be incredibly threatening to a lot of balances before you know if it is physical or special. Switch your Ho-Oh into it and get stone edged. Defensive Pogre gets nuked by +1 Tectonic Rage if Rocks are up. Or you switched that in and it happened to be Taunt CM Tera Water. The mon is a nuisance and scouting it is dangerous.
()	It is a huge threat midgame and lategame to clean. Rock / Dragon / Fire coverage on top of Arceus knows what tera typing means it isn't hard for it to find opportunities to clean or break mid and lategame. If you can bait the Meteor beam it can usually be fairly easily phased with Ho-Oh. The problem is that often involves sacking a mon in the process and may not even work. I've been a big fan of 09-10a's Recover / Cannon / Beam / Fire Blast set recently. Faster support sets can also be quite annoying.
()	You run Arceus-Fairy or you don't have a real defensive switchin. There are mons that can switch in and 1v1 but they'd really rather not such as defensive Pogre, Ferrothorn, and Ho-Oh. The best non Arceus-Fairy switchins I've found has been Offensive CM Arceus Water since it can get a CM and isn't too bothered by taunt as it either will beat the Yveltal or force it out after. Zacian-C can switchin as it only fears the rare heat wave, but you really have to weigh if it is worth giving up the +1, esepcially early game where LO Yveltal is at its most threatening.
( or )	Life Orb sets arn't as scary without a boost but still hit hard and you can't switch around them easily. Banded though...If the Marshadow user clicks the correct move something is dying if you don't have a Zygarde. Even defensive Arceus-Dark can't exactly switch if it is chipped and hazards are up as it'll probably be in range of Tera Ghost Poltergeist. Alo is a good pivot though to scout though Zygarde is the only counter.
	In my experience no matter what you do you're going to guess the set incorrectly and make a horrible blunder. Everytime you Sacred Fire it'll be Refresh or Facade. Everytime you think you're fine because you can live a Frustration and revenge it pulls out Double Edge and KOs you. If you don't have a Zygarde or full health defensive Pogre dealing with this mon sucks.
( and )	Meteor Beam really changed things for answering Deo-A defensively. It has Rock Slide to deal with Ho-Oh but Meteor Beam does the same thing and makes the followup incredibly dicey considering +1 Focus Blast OHKOes Arceus-Dark. If you run Marshadow you're generally fine, but when unscouted Deo-A is incredibly scary to plan for. The issue tends to be dealing with Deo-A's teammates after you've dealt with Deo-A or dealing with the teammates makes it hard to deal with Deo-A. Also game freak please just make Psycho Boost 100% accurate. I've had too many games baiting the Psycho Boost only for it to miss and lose because now it can KO something else w/o the SpA drop.
	Palkia-Horse is likely going to outspeed at least 4 mons on your team and have the ability to 2HKO everything. Fortunately it is Palkia-Horse so none of its moves are accurate and it has to actually pick the right move. Switching around this thing is near impossible and also risks letting it get a sub which makes it even more of a nightmare as you probably don't want to use tera grass on Ho-Oh to deal with this.
( and )	Both sets are incredibly dangerous to balance teams though differ slightly. Banded Ray has no switchins though NDM is generally ok (until V-create comes out). The slight decrease in power from band to LO makes LO Ray a bit more managable to switch into but also much harder to deal with at +1 without Marshadow or Ditto as it is going to outspeed everything.
	If you're running a balance team something on it is going to be Gothitelle food and chances are is that is something you'd quite like to have to deal with Goth's teammates. The mon is uncompetitive and shouuld be banned but it isn't so best of luck getting every 50/50 right when you need to use a mon defensively.

Conclusion
​

If you've made it this far thanks for reading! I'm hoping that others will chime in with their opinions on the state of balance and perhaps even aown post discussing their favourite playstyle. There is still a lot of exploration and development to come and I'm excited to see what direction the tier takes moving forward. There isn't really much to be said here that wasn't said above so I'll end things there.

tl;dr

1. Quickban Gothitelle​
2. Suspect test Gothitelle since we arn't allowed to quickban it​
3. Continue suspect testing Gothitelle until it is banned.​
4. Palkia-Horse should not have 25% usage v me when I filter out the tomfoolery.​

 

[Bobsican]

Hey everybody, we're doing a tiering survey once again, every reply here will matter to potentially define the future of the metagame, this time it's hosted on the forum itself! All you have to do is log into Smogon dot com and answer everything below.

Click here!

This survey will end at around April 30th.​

 

[Dahness]

Gonna post my responses here with some reasoning as to why i chose that particular answer.

I voted 9 on the first question, i think the metagame is leagues better than what it was before the xerneas ban.I feel like u are not obligated to run spdef on every defensive mon and can actually use some more gimmicky sets(band ho-oh my beloved).In general, i am attracted to metas that let you try out different strategies, so the meta is very good in that regard.

I voted 8 on the second question, because again, the meta is in a way better place with xerneas gone.There are stil some things that can be annoying, like zacian/zyg/unecro, but they aren't broken imo, u just gotta be careful how u play around them.

I voted 7 on the third question, while tera isn't the healthiest mechanic to have in a tier, the power level here is much greater than in NDOU, so it doesn't have the same effect here.There are still situations that wouldn't happen if it was banned, like Zacian can now somehow kill a pdon??? or zygarde being able to take on other dragon types/ice types/fairy types by changing its type.Overall, i don't think its a good thing,neither a bad one, so i gave it a neutral 7.

I voted 7 on the Zygarde question, i think that mon is not as easy to set up as most think.The key is to kill it before it becomes big.The problem is once it gets to complete form, its gonna feel unkillable, but even then, it can still be whirlwinded away.Whenever i faced Zygarde, i was mostly able to kill it before it got to complete form and even then, it wasn't that big of a deal to kill.Although i am gonna say, it's very sad to see ur most powerful attack to like 20% to it after a coil.

Voted 5 on Zacian, i feel like this mon has to have the perfect set of moves to be scary, but it never can.You want wild charge for zapdos,behemoth bash for damage in general, you want CC for big damage,you also have to have sd, but you also kinda like having play rough, but you also need tera blast ground for pdon.This mon can never do what it wants to do fully.You also can't bring it in if your opp has a Ditto, because that Ditto is gonna end the game.

Voted 3 on Shadow Tag, i feel like its not that big of a deal.Experienced players know what is coming to them when they see a goth in the preview, and will know how to play around it.I only had this mon do the stuff it wants to do on ladder.But in general, this mon is not a problem, as its tied to a gimmick that only works on a few mons, but it's hella funny to see a goth take 2% from a zacian or unecro.

 

[bumboclaat]

Might was well post what I voted:

How fun is the metagame: 9 - The meta is a is really fun and probably the most fun it has been in a while.

How competitive is the metagame: 7 or 8 - Can't remember exactly what I put. The meta is fairly competitive and often the better player wins. It is never going to be a 10 since we have way too many non 100% accurate moves and a non insignifcant portion of games are always going to be decided by hax. There are a couple changes I'd like to see, but the meta is in a better place than it has been in a while.

Tera: 3 - I don't have an issue with tera and if it were the next suspect test I doubt I'd vote to ban it but that certainly could change. I've always said I'd be fine with a tera ban if too many pokemon were banned as a result. Personally, I don't think we are anywhere close to that and for the most part the mechanic doesn't come particularly close to whatever the threshold for a ban is. My current threshold is that if Zygarde were to be suspected / banned I would want tera to go before then.

- 1. My thoughts have not changed on this. The mon can be annoying but most often that is an issue stemming from poor building than Zygarde being AG worthy. Counterplay exists for every style and Zygarde along with Ho-Oh are a huge part of what makes the tier playable.

- 6. If the survey was a few weeks ago my response would have probably been a 2-3. I'm still not sure I'd vote to ban it at the moment, but it has been getting significantly more frustrating to deal with in the last month as the meta has developed.

- 10. Scroll slightly up and you'll be able to see my thoughts. Viable trapping is unhealthy and uncompetitive. Goth traps enough of the defensive metagame that a consistent goth +5 isn't hard to build. Yeah its a bit of a matchup fish, but that feels a bit wrong given the toxic effect Goth has when someone actually brings it. The Goth user just needs to get one 50/50 right and you need to get every single one right. I'd definitely like it banned, but I'm highly skeptical that it actually would be in a suspect.

Edit: I said viable trapping because no one that I'm aware of that has called for a Goth / Shadow Tag ban has ever brought up the posibility of an Arena Trap unless it was the only viable route to get a Goth / Shadow Tag ban.

My Ideal path for tiering action

1. Shadow Tag suspect (make it as fast as we are allowed to do it since I doubt an extra couple of days is changing anyones mind
2. Zacian-C or Tera Suspect (not really fussed about which would be first but I'd perfer Zacian-C)
3. Zygarde Suspect only and only if tera has already been banned and it is still viewed as problematic

Edit 2: Just recieved this preprint of BSM and hope it convinces some soldiers of big stall on Shadow Tag

 

[unfuuny]

I don't remember exactly what I voted, but iirc most was just 3-5 with a 7 for tera. I think tera is fine-ish but the meta would be better off without it imo. I think the meta is in a good spot right now and we can do funny teambuilding and there is room for outplaying.

Zacian is still either a tera hog or walled by pdon/ndm/whatever physdef mon there are.
Zygarde is definitely easy to take advantage of, either by baiting tera, during rest turns, or by random coverage like hpice marsh.
Floober is not this holy grail some people deem it to be tbh, it still has gaping flaws and can get cteamed hard.

So for the people in the back: suspect tera, keep the rest alive

 

[R8]

Still thinking about what to vote, but just wanted to voice that zyg-c might feel more threatening than it actually is imo, since once it is forced to rest it suddenly becomes much more passive and easy to take advantage of. Mixed feeling about zacian, it feels sometimes dumb but i also believe that it mostly just punishes bad building / passive play. It sometimes take significant effort to take down, but i don't think it's anything too unreasonable from an Uber mon.

Not sure what to feel about tera tbh... I always disliked the mechanic, but i don't know if it's really that much of a big deal. Zacian-C, Zygarde and even E-Killer kinda feel a bit overwhelming to prep for at times with tera.

I don't have much opinions about gothitelle yet. Can't deny it is like one of the most threatening things in the game given the right matchup, but like idk i still feel the mon still remains generally under-explored, and we definitively didn't reach a "omg we gotta run shed shell on random mons" state of the metagame either; i personally would prefer to see more development, discussions and experimentation around the mon and see how the meta react to it before moving to any sort of tiering action about it. I really don't think banning it on the principle that trapping is inherently broken is good reasoning - i think it could even be argued that its ability to trap zygarde is something good for the format. Of course if it's broken we should ban it regardless of that, but the point is that despite Shadow Tag's unfamous tiering history i don't think it would be correct to assume it is automatically broken/unhealthy in this metagame.

 

[BrakeSeer]

Meta enjoyment: 8~
personal opinion, can't really argue any side of this
Meta stability/balance : 6-7 i feel like there is a black sheep still hiding amongst the many threats of the tier as something in particular feels super overwhelming to fight, but i need to think on it more. overall i think it is in a ok place balance wise and would be good if left as is with the exception of a few things outlined in the following polled mons
tera: 10
i hate this mechanic more and more as im forced to use it. this is probably because my intro to comp pokemon was around early dlc SWSH era and by then dynamax was gone if my memory serves me so i learned the game without any MU flipping options other than things like random niche coverage moves, but regardless i hate the fact that it enables offense to an absurd degree, as defensive teams cannot fully utilize the mechanic as the longer the game goes on, the less impact that 1 surprise turn will matter in the outcome of the game, as the immediate reprocussions a stall team has to punish most offensive mons targeting an immunity beyond tera dark donbozo on unec z. whereas with the short fast paced games that offense teams often lead to have each turn having much more impact on the battle by the very nature that often few turns pass without a mon getting KOed and having the surprise factor to flip an ordinarily bad mu on it's head, turning your strong check into a fine red mist because the
yveltal was tera poison tera blast and with rocks up your arc fairy cannot touch it and is put in range of rocks for the next time it comes in 37% of the time, and if it has had any prior chip from the odd u turn from aforementioned yveltal on the switch then it is as good as dead. this is an uncompetitive mechanic that should have never been introduced to the tier where even offensive mons can take a hit let alone survive a suspect test where the primals could do it. but the poll wasn't primarily about tera so i shall save that for later

zac c: idk what i put for this in the slightest but atm prob ~5 because while it's speed tier is great, being locked out of an item and suffering major 4mss it does have a decent amount of checks, with most of them requiring tera to beat cough wow its almost like tera only makes great broken and not mid to good :shocked_pikachu: cough means that a well built team can either have a mon like scarf foul play yveltal, deo a, or a secondary check thats coverage move is often foregone for tera blast, leaving counterplay available for a veriety of teamstyles, althought it is difficult to pull off consistantly, so its a bit blurry of a line for me, hence the 5 leaning 4

zygarde: 3 this pokemon is honestly not the makes banworthy mon in the tier IMO ever since xern got banned a lot less effort needs to be put in to deal with spatking mons leaving much more room for other forms of counterplay for teams, which has lead to a lot of other options becoming viable to beat zygarde such as hooh whirlwind hazard stack, fairyceus, orthworm special unec foul play yveltal or lorb yveltal etc. while also relying on rest being very difficult to position with leading to it feeling like a solid piece of defensive integrity for the meta with different ways to capitalize off it while still having overlapping counterplay available making it much less restrictive. that being said it is still a mon that can take over games rather quickly and saying it is not problematic whatsoever would be playing this mon down more than i think is warrented

Gothitelle: 10 blumbocat has already made it abundently clear why this mechanic is broken and i would reccomend yall check his post history if you need it explained to you that taking away the key to all defensive counterplay if your opponent gets a u turn off is not healthy for any metagame it is allowed in where the options for defensive counterplay leans towards "if i remove this one mon i win" rather than "even with my best answer gone, i still have enough resources to where i can last a little longer" yeah you can dance around it but with the extremely high power meta we have alongside tera expanding the available trapping victim pool to include things your opponent cannot know if they fall into before it is too late

 

[cfdu1202]

Building Balance in the Post Era

Goated post bumboclaat

The metagame is great right now I feel like, there's still a lot to discover. I don't think there is any outlier in terms of power. Nothing remotely close too being uncompetitive, maybe with the sole exception of Gothitelle. Somehow I feel like the better builder, not necessarily the better player per say, wins the majority of the time. I still don't like Tera, it can be quite oppressive (e.g. Yveltal, Zacian-C or dare I say Giratina-O who can absorb any hit with Tera and cripple your Arceus-Fairy or outright KO your Marshadow while still doing its usual job). I understand that it's this generation's gimmick but it feels bad that some Pokemon can just turn their counters into preys. However, I'll admit that it doesn't significally break some Pokemon, at least in NatDex Ubers.

Re: Zygarde-C

Voted 3. It's not a problem but I will disagree with those saying it is more a threat on paper than in practice. Its passiveness is only a problem if it allows an opposing Pokemon to set-up. The archetypes Zygarde finds itself on typically just deals with those threats just fine, and considering a transformed Zygarde just blanket checks every single physical threat with tera, supporting it is fairly easy. The biggest threats to such a Zygarde team are set-up sweepers carrying Taunt, preventing Rest, Coil and Glare, allowing them to prevail. I hate dealing with this passively (e.g. Ho-Oh) since its staying power is second to none in the tier. Last Pokemon Zygarde wins against those.

Re: Zacian-C

Not a problem at the moment. The Tera Blast Ground set can feel op as without this PDon becomes a hard check, as does some Necrozma-DM variants, Eternatus can afford to take a hit and hit back hard with Fire Blast. Still, Tera Zygarde, Tera Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Extremekiller, and the suprisingly useful Landorus-T are good checks to it, not to mention Zacian-C is completely worthless against stall. I cannot think of a worse Pokemon among the top ones against stall.

Re: Gothitelle

Maybe banworthy against stall, otherwise most teams have decent enough counterplay I think. Still, I wouldn't mind this being gone.

 

[entrocefalo]

adem is now officially part of of the Tiering Council! Congratulation!

 

[Cancel cult]

After 22 days and thousands of lost brain cells, I have escaped the hell of my own creation. Ladies, Gentlemen, and everyone in between, I proudly present to you:
Project Perfect
First, a reminder that these pokemon are not necessarily viable. Rather, if you do not see a pokemon on this list, it is almost certainly unviable. If you don't see a pokemon on this list that you do think has three potential to be viable, message me about it, and I will probably add it. This list does not include pokemon that are already on the viability rankings, or pokemon that are currently being submitted to the viability rankings. The pokemon are put into tiers, based on how much potential I see in each of them. Pokemon in the Definitely tier are, in my opinion, definitely viable, while pokemon in the No tier are only there because they can technically do a thing. This is done, because there are exactly 400 pokemon on this list, so if they were all together, this would be like finding a needle in a haystack. If you end up labbing any of these pokemon, let me know the results. I will also make a document for this list explaining the reason for them being here.

Definitely

Kyogre, Linoone, Regieleki

Probably

Banette-Mega, Corsola-Galar, Dialga-Origin, Lugia, Porygon2, Swampert-Mega

Maybe

Arceus-Electric, Arceus-Psychic, Avalugg-Hisui, Blacephelon, Carbink, Cursola, Dragapult, Genesect, Klefki, Kyurem-White, Maushold, Mewtwo, Rabsca, Ribombee, Sinistcha, Vikavolt, Ursaluna, Zamazenta, Zamazenta-Crowned

Possibly

Absol-Mega, Arceus-Bug, Arceus-Fighting, Arceus-Fire, Arceus-Ice, Blastoise-Mega, Camerupt-Mega, Cinderace, Clodsire, Corvknight, Cyclizar, Darmanitan-Galar, Decidueye, Deoxys-Defense, Donphan, Dracovish, Dragonite, Drifblim, Dugtrio, Forretress, Garchomp, Garchomp-Mega, Gliscor, Grafaiai, Heracross-Mega, Hydreigon, Illumise, Iron Bundle, Lycanroc, Lycanroc-Dusk, Metagross-Mega, Mew, Necrozma-Dawn-Wings, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, Orthworm, Rillaboom, Rotom-Wash, Sceptile, Sceptile-Mega, Scolipede, Slowbro-Mega, Sneasler, Spectrier, Tapu Koko, Terapagos, Thundurus, Ting-Lu, Toxapex, Xurkitree

Probably Not

Abomasnow, Abomasnow-Mega, Aegislash, Aggron, Aggron-Mega, Alakazam-Mega, Altaria-Mega, Amoonguss, Ampharos-Mega, Archaludon, Arctovish, Arctozolt, Aurorus, Azumarill, Beedrill-Mega, Blaziken-Mega, Celesteela, Charizard-Mega-Y, Claydol, Clefable, Cloyster, Cofagrigus, Crobat, Darkrai, Diancie, Dracozolt, Duraladon, Enamorus-Therian, Espartha, Espeon, Gallade-Mega, Golem-Alola, Gouging Fire, Great Tusk, Greninja, Groudon, Gyarados, Gyarados-Mega, Haunter, Hawlucha, Heatran, Hydrapple, Iron Hands, Jellicent, Jirachi, Kangaskhan-Mega, Kartana, Keldeo, Kleavor, Lapras, Latias-Mega, Liepard, Lopunny-Mega, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Medicham-Mega, Meowscarada, Meowstic, Mimikyu, Naganadel, Nihilego, Ninetails-Alola, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Ogrepon-Wellspring, Palafin, Pawmot, Peliper, Pinsir-Mega, Politoed, Porygon-Z, Primarina, Quagsire, Quaquaval, Raging Bolt, Rampardos, Reshiram, Reuniclus, Rhyperior, Roaring Moon, Runerigus, Sandy Shocks, Scizor-Mega, Scream Tail, Shaymin-Sky, Shiinotic, Skeledirge, Slowking-Galar, Solgaleo, Stakataka, Sudowoodo, Talonflame, Thievul, Thundurus-Therian, Togedemaru, Togekiss, Togetic, Tornadus, Tornadus-Therian, Torterra, Trapinch, Tsareena, Turtonator, Umbreon, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Uxie, Vanilluxe, Vespiquen, Victini, Volbeat, Volcanion, Weezing-Galar, Whimsicott, Wobbuffet, Xatu, Zacian, Zapdos, Zoruark-Hisui

No

Accelgor, Altaria, Annihilape, Araquanid, Arboliva, Archeops, Armarouge, Aromatisse, Aron, Articuno, Audino, Barbaracle, Beartic, Bellossom, Bibarel, Blastoise, Bombirdier, Brambleghast, Breloom, Bronzong, Bruxish, Cacturne, Camerupt, Carracosta, Celebi, Ceruledge, Cetitan, Chimecho, Cinccino, Coalossal, Cobalion, Comfey, Conkeldurr, Cosmoem, Crawdaunt, Crocalor, Cryogonal, Dachsbund, Darmanitan, Delibird, Diggersby, Dottler, Drampa, Dreadnaw, Drowzee, Dudunsparce, Dunsparce, Durant, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Eelektross, Eelektrik, Eiscue, Eldegoss, Electrode, Emboar, Empoleon, Exploud, Flareon, Froslass, Frosmoth, Gardevoir, Gloom, Golduck, Golisopod, Gumshoos, Hippowdon, Hitmonlee, Houndoom, Houndoom-Mega, Houndstone, Hypno, Indeedee, Indeedee-F, Inteleon, Iron Boulder, Iron Thorns, Jolteon, Jumpluff, Jynx, Kabutops, Kilowattrel, Komala, Kricketune, Krookodile, Leavanny, Lickilicky, Lilligant-Hisui, Lopunny, Mabosstif, Magcargo, Magneton, Mantine, Marowak, Marowak-Alola, Masquerain, Mawile-Mega, Meloetta, Mightyena, Milotic, MInior, Minum, MIsmagius, Morpeko, Mr. Mime, Mr. Mime-Galar, Mr. Rime, Mudsdale, Muk, Muk-Alola, Munkidori, Musharna, Nidoking, Ninetails, Ninjask, Noivern, Ogrepon, Oinkalogne-F, Omastar, Oranguru, Orbeetle, Overqwil, Palossand, Pangoro, Parasect, Pecharunt, Persian-Alola, Pincurchin, Plusle, Polteageist, Probopass, Pyukumuku, Qwilfish, Qwilfish-Hisui, Raichu, Raichu-Alola, Rapidash, Relicanth, Rhydon, Rotom-Frost, Salamence, Salazzle, Sandaconda, Sandslash, Sandslash-Alola, Scrafty, Serperior, Sharpedo, Sharpedo-Mega, Shiftry, Sigilyph, Silvally(all forms), Skuntank, Slowbro-Galar, Slowking, Spidops, Spinda, Spiritomb, Squakability, Starmie, Sunflora, Swalot, Swampert, Swellow, Tapu Fini, Terrakion, Toedscruel, Torkoal, Urshifu, Vaporeon, Victreebel, Vivillon, Volcarona, Walrein, Weepinbell, Wigglytuff, Wishiwashi, Wo-Chien, Zangoose Zeraora, Zoruark

The link to the explanation sheet:https://docs.google.com/document/d/..._Yc_d5JDKbQ7HrSwKtJbk8aCBd4yGOEyw2xBll7gD/pub

Changes

May 1st 2024:Mimikyu was moved to Probably not, Carbink was moved to Maybe
May 2nd 2024:Ursaluna was added to Maybe
May 8th 2024:Porygon-Z was moved to Probably Not
May 31st 2024:Zangoose was added to No, Linoone was moved to Definitely

 

[Cancel cult]

Alright, let's discuss the Pandora's box I just opened.
Out of all of these, I feel like the one that has the potential to shake up the meta the most is Rabsca.
Rabsca @ Focus Sash
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Revival Blessing
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Recover/Light Screen/Reflect/This move slot doesn't really matter
So, the thing holding the revival blessing pokemon back was the fact that neither of them could really do anything, so it turned a 6/6 to a 5.5/6. Trick Room teams already run like 4/6, because half of their team is dedicated to setting up Trick Room. This is, in fact, something Rabsca can do. So now Trick Room teams have an extra Mon. You might be saying "But Focus Sash", but unfortunately, Trick Room teams are rather good at denying hazards. Someone please point out a flaw in my logic, I don't want Trick Room to be better.

 

[bumboclaat]

Alright, let's discuss the Pandora's box I just opened.
Out of all of these, I feel like the one that has the potential to shake up the meta the most is Rabsca.
Rabsca @ Focus Sash
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Revival Blessing
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Recover/Light Screen/Reflect/This move slot doesn't really matter
So, the thing holding the revival blessing pokemon back was the fact that neither of them could really do anything, so it turned a 6/6 to a 5.5/6. Trick Room teams already run like 4/6, because half of their team is dedicated to setting up Trick Room. This is, in fact, something Rabsca can do. So now Trick Room teams have an extra Mon. You might be saying "But Focus Sash", but unfortunately, Trick Room teams are rather good at denying hazards. Someone please point out a flaw in my logic, I don't want Trick Room to be better.

This is operating under the assumption that Trick Room is a strong playstyle to begin with which it just isn't. It is a mediocre matchup fish which only beats some flavours of HO while getting destroyed by everything else. It isn't particularly hard to get hazards up v TR as Hatterene has to make a choice between using Healing Wish T2 to get something in or staying in to deny hazards at the cost of momentum and TR turns.

I'm not particularly sure exactly what Rabsca offers over other TR setters. It can't guarentee that TR goes up like Arceus as it is holding a sash rather than a mental herb and can't outspeed Taunt users to deny them with its own Taunt. Cresselia can also guarentee that TR gets up one more time due to Mental Herb and Lunar Blessing is a significant upgrade to Revival Blessing as the TR abusers can generally stomach a hit from full HP, but not half and the PP restoration is particularly important for Melmetal as it is not particularly difficult to stall it out of DIB PP. Even then both Melmetal and Cress are on the fringe side when it comes to TR viability. I guess you could run it over Lunala but I still don't see a use case.

Short TR VR

Never Drop:

Setters (ordered by viability):

Abusers (ordered by viability): (I'm probably forgetting something that is better than mel)

TR is normally . Where am I fitting when I didn't even list as a setter even though it deals with which completely shreds the whole style more or less by itself. The structure is incredibly rigid both in the builder and in battle. The latter makes it particularly easy to beat for most teams due to the ease in doubling to whatever you have that deals with the setters.

 

[entrocefalo]

Survey results here.

 

[unfuuny]

floober dodged the hammer lets go, my analysis is still lore accurate

Tera I feel kind of mixed about, its not broken in NDubers as compared to other metagames, and it is fun to use definitely, but occasionally it is also frustrating to keep in mind as an option. It doesn't swing games like dynamax does, but is able to flip matchups on its head in a manner no other mechanic is able to, like zyggy being able to fix its ice beam shaped hole with a stylish water type hat or zacian being able to ground blast past usual checks pdon and ndm. Though I do feel like it is positive in some cases, especially for defensive pokémon such as ho-oh and defensive arceus turning the meta from a sweepfest that ubers sometimes feels like to a slower metagame that rewards intelligent play (ignore the fact that i use gothitelle press charm button 17 times). Even though I feel mixed about it, I think that with Xern gone now I would vote DNB, sacrificing the zeomancy floober for the greater good of the metagame.