Serious Never Again

Chou Toshio

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I’m sure that there is a gun control thread somewhere but what’s going on is so incredible I thought that this merits its own thread.

These kids are just so incredible. It’s terrible what’s happened to them but these kids are exactly the voices the American people needed right now. This is the best of Feel the Bern and Mother’s against Drunk Driving, activism at its finest.

·Stick to the issue, speak to the policy substance.
·Be truly inclusive, speak to the people and not down to the opposition. Avoid regressive identity politics like the scourge.
·Concrete demands— the gun reform demands are powerful, unarguable. Their eye on campaign finance reform keeps them locked on the most important deeper issue.


These kids are demonstrating how powerful true progressivism is. This is the liberalism that everyone actually wants.

Honestly, between the corrupt corporate DNC, the regressive leftists and Antifa, I thought the left was going to squash its 2018 chances but these kids might be the silver bullet— both in solidifying the left to truly fight for the substantive progressive issues, but also in destroying the chances for republicans.

And you can see it in how the right is absolutely bellyflopping and panicking. Ben Shapiro is the most triggered snowflake in the country now. That moment when Cameron asked Marco Rubio, “Will you turn down all donations from the NRA?” Or when David Hogg gave his speech this last weekend— man I probably woke the neighbors with how stoked I was.
The rational conservatives are pissing themselves silly— they are terrified of people like Bernie or these kids because they know that the American people are liberal on the issues, so they have nothing to beat a rational liberal.

These kids have got the whole country Cheeing and crying—

Damn. This might really be the turning point— it starts with guns, but it might end with money out of politics, and finally a new new deal for the American people. God... God bless ‘em!
 
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Robert Alfons

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nah, the parkland kids suck, sorry.


while the conservative smears against them are absolutely ridiculous and frankly insulting, these kids aren't fit to be leading any sort of public debate on anything. i'm sure they intend no harm, but gun control is a way more complicated topic than they - or most people, for that matter- realize. the twitter thread i linked does a pretty good job of pointing out some big flaws in their manifesto. if you're gonna be serious about gun reform, the consequences must be thought through, because as nice as gun control might sound in theory, in practice it can very easily lead to further marginalization of the mentally ill, people of color, and other minorities.

side note: you'd do well not to use "triggered" as an insult, i know it might seem like a funny idea to appropriate a term mostly used by right wingers and use it against them, but keep in mind that this word is used for people who genuinely suffer from trauma, marginalizing their experiences by turning this word into an epic meme is not advisable
 
These kids have got the whole country Cheeing and crying—

Damn. This might really be the turning point— it starts with guns, but it might end with money out of politics, and finally a new new deal for the American people. God... God bless ‘em!
Cheering or Crying, for one reason or another.

I'm sure tons of women and households are afraid they're about to lose their self defense weapons if these "Ban All Guns" People get a platform.
 

Chou Toshio

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nah, the parkland kids suck, sorry.


while the conservative smears against them are absolutely ridiculous and frankly insulting, these kids aren't fit to be leading any sort of public debate on anything. i'm sure they intend no harm, but gun control is a way more complicated topic than they - or most people, for that matter- realize. the twitter thread i linked does a pretty good job of pointing out some big flaws in their manifesto. if you're gonna be serious about gun reform, the consequences must be thought through, because as nice as gun control might sound in theory, in practice it can very easily lead to further marginalization of the mentally ill, people of color, and other minorities.

side note: you'd do well not to use "triggered" as an insult, i know it might seem like a funny idea to appropriate a term mostly used by right wingers and use it against them, but keep in mind that this word is used for people who genuinely suffer from trauma, marginalizing their experiences by turning this word into an epic meme is not advisable
It’s a fair point that I will admit to not investing much thought into— gun accessibility and its influence in vulnerable groups.

Like the Parkland kids I come from a privileged background (in Hawaii, one of the most regulated states), and now living in Japan married to a Japanese person and physically 100% passing for a normal, fit, Japanese person in a racially homogenous country— I only see the benefits of gun restriction.

Live here in a country with no gun rights at all, seeing zero gun violence— from my perspective it feels like the international data on this is 100% compelling. When Bill Maher or SAM Harris says we should even get rid of the second amendment, I see zero downside.

But that’s a product of lived experience and limited knowledge.

Frankly when it comes to all issues— security, immigration, economics, etc. I am more compelled/have greater affinity for the objective, quantitative, macro arguments; not nearly as much by the relational/group-based ones, so I am open to people more in tune there presenting those perspectives to me. Not promising to agree but open to hearing new arguments.

I am still most like to vote on, and fight for economic progressivism, but trying to keep an open ear.
 
While I don't think banning all guns is a good idea (far too many of them) I think tighter restrictions are necessary. No civilian needs an assault rifle. Self defence? Take self defence classes - you'll get some exercise, and maybe make some new friends. If that's not an option, a pistol will do just fine. Vermin control? A shotgun is much better. Big game hunting? A rifle is much better. Will this stop shootings entirely? Probably not. But it will make them less frequent, and less deadly when they do break happen.
 
>gun control is a complicated issue

Americans are hilarious, literally every developed country has solved the problem already. All these arguments and pros and cons are so fucking stupid. If it has worked in 30 countries it'll work in 31. Yeah you'll still have guns in circulation for a while, yeah in the immediate aftermath there will probably be a rise in crime and yeah maybe the fine details of what the exact laws would be are complicated but in the long term it will work.

If you support gun control face outwards and look abroad for a change.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
I’m sure that there is a gun control thread somewhere but what’s going on is so incredible I thought that this merits its own thread.

These kids are just so incredible. It’s terrible what’s happened to them but these kids are exactly the voices the American people needed right now. This is the best of Feel the Bern and Mother’s against Drunk Driving, activism at its finest.
btw I'm assuming you're referring to the Parkland kids, specifically (because we all know the pro-2nd amendment kids at that school get no voice) Hogg and Gonzalez.

The way the left has been using these kids goes above and beyond the usual tactics of standing on the graves of children. They handpicked the most anti-gun kids they could and then presented them in a way where they can spout off whatever they want (including blatant extremism) but also being free from any criticism bar policy. They let Hogg claim that Marco Rubio personally took money for each Parkland victim, that Dana Loesch is the "propagandist" of the NRA and that she doesn't care about children... and then when someone tries to criticize his motivations, they hide behind the "you're just attacking a kid" narrative.

Of course what happened to these kids was a tragedy and we should all give them our prayers for strength, but using emotionally-charged shooting survivors as a way to push a political narrative is pretty sad.

·Stick to the issue, speak to the policy substance.
Uh what? The only place this applies is to the actual March For Our Lives thing, the students themselves (again mainly Hogg) have mostly just stuck to weirdly-rooted attacks on the NRA and claims that Republicans and the government are cowards evil etc.[/quote]

·Be truly inclusive, speak to the people and not down to the opposition. Avoid regressive identity politics like the scourge.
The gun control sphere in the US is absolutely not "inclusive" and you're delusional if you believe it is. Going to have to side with the radical lefties on this one but they're right when they say it's a white privilege/class thing. Gun control legislation is exclusively discussed after mass shootings of upper-middle class suburban white kids with big scary assault rifles. The vast majority of gun deaths in the US are from handguns and take place in poor inner city communities, generally over drugs. If the media and politicians truly cared about "gun violence" they would make these kinds of shootings the focus of the argument, not abnormalities that only affect white kids.

·Concrete demands— the gun reform demands are powerful, unarguable. Their eye on campaign finance reform keeps them locked on the most important deeper issue.
Deeper issue? You realize that everything said by these kids about the NRA and Republicans can be said about Planned Parenthood and Democrats? This argument makes no sense, of course an organization that deals in a service that's under political scrutiny would support the party that wants to keep that issue legal?

These kids are demonstrating how powerful true progressivism is. This is the liberalism that everyone actually wants.
Liberalism promotes individual freedom and smaller government, which is the exact opposite of gun control. You're thinking of leftism

Honestly, between the corrupt corporate DNC, the regressive leftists and Antifa, I thought the left was going to squash its 2018 chances but these kids might be the silver bullet— both in solidifying the left to truly fight for the substantive progressive issues, but also in destroying the chances for republicans.
Without the mythical economic collapse under Trump I don't see people opting out to go back tbh

And you can see it in how the right is absolutely bellyflopping and panicking.
Well people tend to get worried when their human rights are being threatened? I don't see why you're excited about this

Ben Shapiro is the most triggered snowflake in the country now.
Mind explaining?

That moment when Cameron asked Marco Rubio, “Will you turn down all donations from the NRA?” Or when David Hogg gave his speech this last weekend— man I probably woke the neighbors with how stoked I was.
Again if you want to attack the NRA for "controlling" Republicans than you have to admit the same for Planned Parenthood.

The rational conservatives are pissing themselves silly— they are terrified of people like Bernie or these kids because they know that the American people are liberal on the issues, so they have nothing to beat a rational liberal.
Mind explaining? Bernie had zero support outside of far-left advocates and one of the huge reasons the DNC set him up was because they knew he had no chance of persuading any moderates. No one I know is "terrified" of Hogg or anyone else, because rational people understand that emotion and outrage have no place in policy?

These kids have got the whole country Cheeing and crying—
The fact that you're celebrating people "crying" over losing their rights worries me

Damn. This might really be the turning point— it starts with guns, but it might end with money out of politics,
I feel like you don't understand the ramifications of removing the political power from unions and others will mean. The left lives on globalist funds pouring into their pockets and without it they'll crash and burn after the average American tunes out of the mainstream media and starts looking at the world realistically.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
>gun control is a complicated issue

Americans are hilarious, literally every developed country has solved the problem already. All these arguments and pros and cons are so fucking stupid. If it has worked in 30 countries it'll work in 31. Yeah you'll still have guns in circulation for a while, yeah in the immediate aftermath there will probably be a rise in crime and yeah maybe the fine details of what the exact laws would be are complicated but in the long term it will work.

If you support gun control face outwards and look abroad for a change.
What do you mean by "worked"? I mean, looking at the data we know:
-Britain saw a massive increase in both firearm and regular murder rates after instituting a nationwide gun ban (which only went down after a massive increase of police officers)
-Britain has more rapes, burglaries, and robberies, (all crimes heavily deterred by guns) than the US
-Other developed countries with strict gun control, such as Norway and France, still outrank the US in mass shooting deaths
-Australia saw relatively little change in its gun murder rate after their buyback
-There continues to be no link between gun control and fewer murder rates
I'm interested as to what you mean. "Worked" as in what?

 

Asek

Genious to some... retard to most
tfw someone makes an argument but you're smug so you win like take that drumbleft *dab* *gets executed by state*

edit do you people have every political thread on your notification list
who are you even trying to mock when you post like this? nobody makes posts like this except for you, its embarassing.
 

Robert Alfons

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kilometerman using sexual violence statistics to make your point is a little shoddy. Sexual violence statistics tend to be far off from the real number due to the fact that most rapes go unreported, there's also differences between countries' definitions of sexual assault and how it's counted. Furthermore, guns aren't going to stop a whole lot of rapes considering that most sexual violence is committed by someone known to the victim and many rape victims are too young to get a gun (or don't have the financial stability to afford one - gotta pay rent first). Unless you somehow keep a gun on you at all times and aren't afraid to threaten to shoot your uncle when he gets a little too touchy feely at your grandmother's dinner party, a gun won't save you.

Now, of course, people should be able to defend themselves, but a can of mace goes a long way - less dangerous, more handy, and a whole lot more affordable, too. I have my reasons to be more critical of gun control than many others on the left, but "guns prevent crime" isn't one of them.
 

Deck Knight

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David Hogg and Emma Gonzalez are examples of why you don't let 17 year olds be the public face of your movement. Gonzalez's comment at the CNN town hall that she cared more about Dana Loesch's kids than their own mother because she supports gun control is and was obnoxious and snotty. Hogg's recent comment comparing "our democracy" to his parents using iMessage ("we need to take it away from them because they don't know how to use it") is and was ridiculous.

How about that Time Magazine cover? Gonzalez is wearing those ghetto intentionally super-shredded jeans, and the girl behind her doesn't even have shoes on. If these kids are the future, the future is asking us if we'd like fries with that. What adult is going to take the images of these kids seriously when they don't seem to take themselves seriously? No, they didn't have to show up in professional dress, but nothing says mass appeal like high schoolers making fashion choices parents barely tolerate in middle schoolers. Time Magazine itself should have known better as the publisher, but, well, Time is quickly running out of its namesake.

The worst part for these kids is that on Wednesday, November 7th 2018 these kids are going to be dropped harder than Cindy Sheehan was when opposing the Iraq War no longer became a focal point of leftist politics. They'll have wasted their last year of high school being truants to get on CNN and have their college prospects drastically reduced (except Gonzalez because she's the only one who qualifies for Affirmative Action quotas.)

Meanwhile, the NRA is facing a booming upsurge in new memberships because everyone from these kids to former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens is saying they want to abolish the 2nd Amendment. This is like a saving throw roll for the usual mid-term crushing the incumbent President's party usually gets.
 
David Hogg and Emma Gonzalez are examples of why you don't let 17 year olds be the public face of your movement. Gonzalez's comment at the CNN town hall that she cared more about Dana Loesch's kids than their own mother because she supports gun control is and was obnoxious and snotty. Hogg's recent comment comparing "our democracy" to his parents using iMessage ("we need to take it away from them because they don't know how to use it") is and was ridiculous.

How about that Time Magazine cover? Gonzalez is wearing those ghetto intentionally super-shredded jeans, and the girl behind her doesn't even have shoes on. If these kids are the future, the future is asking us if we'd like fries with that. What adult is going to take the images of these kids seriously when they don't seem to take themselves seriously? No, they didn't have to show up in professional dress, but nothing says mass appeal like high schoolers making fashion choices parents barely tolerate in middle schoolers. Time Magazine itself should have known better as the publisher, but, well, Time is quickly running out of its namesake.

The worst part for these kids is that on Wednesday, November 7th 2018 these kids are going to be dropped harder than Cindy Sheehan was when opposing the Iraq War no longer became a focal point of leftist politics. They'll have wasted their last year of high school being truants to get on CNN and have their college prospects drastically reduced (except Gonzalez because she's the only one who qualifies for Affirmative Action quotas.)

Meanwhile, the NRA is facing a booming upsurge in new memberships because everyone from these kids to former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens is saying they want to abolish the 2nd Amendment. This is like a saving throw roll for the usual mid-term crushing the incumbent President's party usually gets.
Criticizing them for their age, attire, and racial background is exactly the rhetoric one would expect from you. Did adults also laugh at you for being a hunchback when you said you wanted to run for local office as a teenager? This post reeks of nothing but angst.
 
They'll have wasted their last year of high school being truants to get on CNN and have their college prospects drastically reduced (except Gonzalez because she's the only one who qualifies for Affirmative Action quotas.)
Omg dude the DISDAIN for these kids is fucking real.
 
*Breaking News*

Choking back a panic-stricken gag reflex, resident anti-anti-bigot DK lashed out against survivors of a high school shooting massacre. When asked to provide his reasoning behind the latest diatribe, DK could only foam at the mouth while he cocked the bulging bump-stock in his pocket.

Later, a hunch-backed man was filmed throwing rocks at brown children protesting gun violence. He fled into the angry mob of counter-protesters toting semi-automatic racist slurs before the police could hold him for questioning.

More news at eleven.
 

DTC

I'll be your 1-Up girl
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I'm not very pro gun control (although we clearly need more restrictions to increase safety), but my lord "conservatives" just make themselves look like morons when they start attacking the kids based on how they look.

DK's attacks on the girl wearing shredded jeans are just cringy AF.

Also kilometerman is right that part of the reason these parkland kids have gotten so much attention is upper middle class and white (even though the school itself is actually 20% black - but you probably didn't know this from media coverage). There are plenty of genuine criticisms about how the media handles issues - I think all of the national cable news are complete scum for example (CNN, MSNBC, Fox... all horrible). Washington post is actually not bad, NPR/Local news is pretty good (although a lot of local news is being taken over by Sinclair). However, I doubt given kilometerman's posting history that he actually cares about helping miniorities out besides using them as political points.
 
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Exeggutor

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David Hogg and Emma Gonzalez are examples of why you don't let 17 year olds be the public face of your movement. Gonzalez's comment at the CNN town hall that she cared more about Dana Loesch's kids than their own mother because she supports gun control is and was obnoxious and snotty. Hogg's recent comment comparing "our democracy" to his parents using iMessage ("we need to take it away from them because they don't know how to use it") is and was ridiculous.

How about that Time Magazine cover? Gonzalez is wearing those ghetto intentionally super-shredded jeans, and the girl behind her doesn't even have shoes on. If these kids are the future, the future is asking us if we'd like fries with that. What adult is going to take the images of these kids seriously when they don't seem to take themselves seriously? No, they didn't have to show up in professional dress, but nothing says mass appeal like high schoolers making fashion choices parents barely tolerate in middle schoolers. Time Magazine itself should have known better as the publisher, but, well, Time is quickly running out of its namesake.

The worst part for these kids is that on Wednesday, November 7th 2018 these kids are going to be dropped harder than Cindy Sheehan was when opposing the Iraq War no longer became a focal point of leftist politics. They'll have wasted their last year of high school being truants to get on CNN and have their college prospects drastically reduced (except Gonzalez because she's the only one who qualifies for Affirmative Action quotas.)

Meanwhile, the NRA is facing a booming upsurge in new memberships because everyone from these kids to former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens is saying they want to abolish the 2nd Amendment. This is like a saving throw roll for the usual mid-term crushing the incumbent President's party usually gets.
Nothing reeks of washed-up, out of touch old man more than judging children taking charge of their future for their fashion sense - especially for something as tame as ripped jeans. Do you feel better having mocked them for that rather than debating the basis of their arguments? I'd hope not - a man of your age acting like a schoolyard bully is downright pathetic.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Deck Knight talking shit about 17 year olds for their appearance but he got demodded on a Pokémon website for being a racist homophobe that made a post defending the sexual harassment of a minor on said site. Really makes you think. No wait, it doesn’t.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
kilometerman using sexual violence statistics to make your point is a little shoddy. Sexual violence statistics tend to be far off from the real number due to the fact that most rapes go unreported, there's also differences between countries' definitions of sexual assault and how it's counted. Furthermore, guns aren't going to stop a whole lot of rapes considering that most sexual violence is committed by someone known to the victim and many rape victims are too young to get a gun (or don't have the financial stability to afford one - gotta pay rent first). Unless you somehow keep a gun on you at all times and aren't afraid to threaten to shoot your uncle when he gets a little too touchy feely at your grandmother's dinner party, a gun won't save you.

Now, of course, people should be able to defend themselves, but a can of mace goes a long way - less dangerous, more handy, and a whole lot more affordable, too. I have my reasons to be more critical of gun control than many others on the left, but "guns prevent crime" isn't one of them.
My fault for not explaining. According to Kleck and Gertz, guns are used around 200,000 times a year to protect women from sexual assault. Compare that with the 10,000-15,000 firearm homicides per year.

And can we appreciate how I said "The way the left has been using these kids goes above and beyond the usual tactics of standing on the graves of children. They handpicked the most anti-gun kids they could and then presented them in a way where they can spout off whatever they want (including blatant extremism) but also being free from any criticism bar policy." And then the next day that's exactly what happened?

Like clockwork
 

chaos

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kilometerman by blatant extremism, do you mean prohibiting gun manufacturers from being sued, banning the CDC from researching gun violence, subjecting children to "active shooter drills", and allowing police officers to shoot citizens without reprisal? Maybe you were referring to how virtually every American politician takes money (and is therefore accountable to) weapons manufacturers, or how our Secretary of Education is the sister of a billionaire mercenary? Unclear what you mean.

I agree that the kids haven't been subjected to any criticism. They should be forced to engage with this argument, at least:
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
kilometerman by blatant extremism, do you mean prohibiting gun manufacturers from being sued, banning the CDC from researching gun violence, subjecting children to "active shooter drills", and allowing police officers to shoot citizens without reprisal? Maybe you were referring to how virtually every American politician takes money (and is therefore accountable to) weapons manufacturers, or how our Secretary of Education is the sister of a billionaire mercenary? Unclear what you mean.

I agree that the kids haven't been subjected to any criticism. They should be forced to engage with this argument, at least:
Prohibiting gun manufacturers from being sued for their products being used in the wrong way is common sense? Should car manufacturers be able to get sued by drunk driving victims? The ban on CDC gun research was over 20 years ago, is now being brought back by the Trump administration, and was created for the purpose of protecting the CDC from politicization via gun control proponents. Dickey publically stated he regretted the decision as his intent wasn't to block all research. I don't understand why you would think there's something wrong with active shooter drills? I'm assuming you're trying to imply that the US needs them because of how many shootings there are, but he US isn't even in the top 10 first world countries when it comes to mass shooting deaths. Elaborate on "police officers being able to shoot citizens without reprisal" (this is a pro-gun argument also, sweetie). Should cops not do their duty and fire on suspected criminals who are armed? Should they just let the guy keep shooting innocents? As said previously, American politicians take money from all kinds of sectors. Are Democrats who take money from Planned Parenthood directly responsible for every baby killed by them? What does Betsy have anything to do with this?

The cartoon is very obviously an attack on CNN and the anti-2nd amendment lobby, not necessarily Hogg. And even if it was, why would that matter? He chose to be a public figure on this topic, and that means that he doesn't get to hide behind the "merely just a kid" excuse whenever he faces criticism.
 

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