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Never Never (Used) Land: Where Dreams are Made

I am really excited for all these new possibilities we will have in NU. So many new toys to play with, but it is really hard to tell which ones will be usable (and effective) and which ones will end up being bad gimmicks. Pokemon players have an incredible ability to hype things up and theorymon them to be the best thing since sliced bread, even if they in practice turn out to be mediocre at beast. See: Electivire last gen. Anyway, on to NU.

The whole Alomomola / Audino / Amoonguss core seems absolutely incredible, but hey hey mixed Emboar beats all 3! And even a bulky Servine can hold its own against the core, with Substitute to block status from everything, it just has to be wary of Clear Smog Amoonguss (which will be amazing). And yeah, Serperior is definitely going OU.

Swoobat, on paper at least, seems to be excellent. The set I had in mind was something like CM / Sub / Stored Power / Roost or Hidden Power. Substitute allows it to get around the ever dangerous Skuntank, avoiding Sucker Punch and then killing with HP Ground. A Sub Roost set could also be effective, as long as it is paired with something like Gurdurr to get rid of Dark-types.

Once the initial hype of Serperior and the regen pokes (and them probably moving to higher tiers), I think the metagame will really twist itself around Moxie Pinsir. With that attack stat and a very usable Speed stat, it becomes such an incredible late game cleaner that every team will have a way to deal with it, much in the same way as most teams now carries a specific check to Gorebyss, and Steel- or Rock-types are essential due to Swellow, Braviary and friends.

Finally: Pinch Berries. This is probably what I am looking forward to most, as it allows so many more strategies that have previously been forgotton. Outside the obvious Gluttony Pokemon in the Simi-trio and Linoone, I can see Sawk getting a great boon with a Substitute-Salac-Reversal set. Its a shame the Scarf speed to aim for will still be 86 (due to Pinsir and Gorebyss), but it will still be an effective cleaner. On the same strategy, I cannot wait to use Reversal Raticate, that will be amazing.

Weeeeee imagination land. Yes I am still mad about this thread.
 
Without count the lot of pokes that can be dropped down from upper tiers with the rises of new DW pokes, i'm pretty curious on this thing too.

Anyway, the poke that i really want to use is Simple Swoobat, that sounds really cool and can be a huge threat once the obv OU mons will go in their appropriate tier(s).

just a personal suggestion, but...can the admins considers the idea to reduces the tier change to one month for the first 2-3 months from the release of B2/W2 ? I think that can be a good idea to get rid of huge threats that obviusly don't belong to the tier where they are, like Serperior that is obvously OU. Just a suggestion that seems legit to me.

Personally i don't really like the idea to wait three months to see a prototype of a new balanced NU tier, but maybe is just me :P
 
Ewil said:
just a personal suggestion, but...can the admins considers the idea to reduces the tier change to one month for the first 2-3 months from the release of B2/W2 ? I think that can be a good idea to get rid of huge threats that obviusly don't belong to the tier where they are, like Serperior that is obvously OU. Just a suggestion that seems legit to me.

Personally i don't really like the idea to wait three months to see a prototype of a new balanced NU tier, but maybe is just me :P
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Well, any Pokemon that is obviously broken (as I suspect will be the case with a few select Pokemon) will be banned after an appropriate amount of time. It will not take us 2-3 months to get rid of anything which is obviously ruining the tier, but everything will be given a chance, however short, to be in NU. Changing the tier shifts to every month will lead to chaos; no where near enough time for a metagame to a) be balanced and b) produce reliable usage statistics. Pokemon will be much more liable to rise and fall (when they shouldn't be doing so) due to sharp spikes in usage for a single month. It takes time to balance a tier properly, and attempting to change the tiers every month would be very counter productive.

This is just my opinion, I obviously don't speak for the rest of the council (or zeb) but yeah.
 
Django Reinhart said:
Well, any Pokemon that is obviously broken (as I suspect will be the case with a few select Pokemon) will be banned after an appropriate amount of time. It will not take us 2-3 months to get rid of anything which is obviously ruining the tier, but everything will be given a chance, however short, to be in NU. Changing the tier shifts to every month will lead to chaos; no where near enough time for a metagame to a) be balanced and b) produce reliable usage statistics. Pokemon will be much more liable to rise and fall (when they shouldn't be doing so) due to sharp spikes in usage for a single month. It takes time to balance a tier properly, and attempting to change the tiers every month would be very counter productive.

This is just my opinion, I obviously don't speak for the rest of the council (or zeb) but yeah.
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Yeah i didn't consider the idea for suspect and that sounds the most appropriate.

I'm also curious of wich pokemons of upper tiers (i think we must discuss principally of the RU mons) you think are droppen down and become a pretty sure/solid part of the NU tier. (if this question is not appropriate for this thread, don't consider that :P). Obv talking always of the new DW abilities in question.


edit: yay 300 :DD
 
Ewil said:
I'm also curious of wich pokemons of upper tiers (i think we must discuss principally of the RU mons) you think are droppen down and become a pretty sure/solid part of the NU tier.
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I'd say the usage-based tier shifts will happen once per 3 months, like it usually happens. The suspect bans and stuff can happen depending on what mons are released and should probably be handled in a case-by-case analysis, especially as not all DW mons are necessarily going to be released alongside B2W2.

I can't wait to use Skill Link Cinccino. The troll inside of me tells me to use King's Rock with it, which is possibly one of the most evil ideas I've had a hold on recently. Swift Swim Carracosta sounds pretty cool, but it's not quite swift enough with +2 and probably still needs the trusty Aqua Jet (well, it's not like Rain boosted STAB priority is something to complain about). Swanna is a pretty cool mon and Hydration would only help its usage as a rain mon. (hope the Core Crisis made people realize how hard it is to switch on Swanna!) Just don't be a DTC and Rest on the turn Rain expires.

Analytic Beheeyem sounds pretty interesting too: it's got enough competition from pure Psychic-types in Mushy and Duosion, but it sounds like an option to be both bulky + hit hard. Stuff like Water Absorb Seismitoad sounds good until you realize nobody uses Water Absorb Quagsire, which is essentially the same thing but with a reliable recovery move.
 
So when I came to check for Neverused threads I had to see that this thread is now at 29 posts! Thanks a lot for showing so much interest guys (and actually discussing stuff such as whether to include Klang).

Anyway, I'm probably most excited about offensive drops; surprisingly, I care less about Emboar and more about Cinccino after seeing how powerful it was when we had a DW NU showdown like 3 weeks ago.

Sawk will also be cool, seeing how Sawk is pretty good to begin with and how Sturdy is probably the ability I hate the most in NU. Musharna would also be so much easier to kill with the hypothetical Lampent and Gothitelle, making life a lot better for poor Sawk.

I'll add the ones which I think deserve a mention, which is mostly Carracosta for now (sorry Full2Half, but Exploud just doesn't cut it for me ): ).

Also, I decided not to add Klang because of the points Zeb took right out of my mouth: It gets a worse ability in general, has a lot less usage and is a lot more niche than Braviary.

Keep posting, and feel free to discuss Ewil's idea about possible drop-downs from higher tiers.
 
Theres definitely gonna be a very strong offensive pressence in the tier. Sawk, Cinno, Emboar, Pinsir, Zangoose and Gurdurr are all very strong pokes. I really hope the up and coming regenerator core can handle it.

Very happy for Exploud. Although most people won't use it and his exposure is little he really isn't too bad. Amazing coverage (GF must love giving normal types tons of moves), decent bulk and taking pretty much everything neutrally except for two types is decent enough for me.

Piloswine is going to be great IMO, definitely top 10 or 20 material. Thanks to the recent challenge he's gotten more main stream.

My beloved Beartic needs more than just SS to be a threat .-.

I used to use Swoobat in DW UU on the PO server to some success. Just needs decent timing.
 
No one has mentioned Sturdy Regirock yet? The ability seems redundant on such a bulky pokemon, but it allows him to take any hit bar hazards and fire back. Not sure if this new toy will be useful, but it sure beats Clear Body.
 
@Dragonite, Sturdy Regirock will be better than Clear Body Regirock, but not by much. It's extremely hard to OHKO Regirock so Sturdy won't affect Regirock's performance much.

Out of the honorable mentions list, I'm most excited for Aftermath Garbodor and pinch berry Gluttony/Torrent Simipour.

Aftermath will be the optimal ability on most Garbodor, giving it even more utility. Stall teams will appreciate Aftermath when a threatening Pokemon that they can't wall such as Braviary, Emboar, and Ursaring show up to take away more heal from them. Most suicide Garbodor will probably use Aftermath too. Weak Armor can be useful sometimes, but annoying other times, especially when you're fighting a Pokemon with multi-hit moves.

Petaya / Salac Gluttony / Torrent Simipour will likely be very effective. Simipour is already very fast, so Petaya can be very useful to get past walls easier. However, Salac goes better with Nasty Plot. Gluttony is good so you don't have to Substitute down to 25% health but you don't get the useful water boost from Torrent. Sub NP Simipour will be a lot more viable with the pinch berries and Torrent. The best part about Simipour over the other simi's is that it only really needs 2 moves. Not hitting Water-types is a shame, but there are few in NU, and a lot of them are hit hard anyways.

NU will be really interesting once the changes in b2w2 are implemented. I'm excited.
 
Stop that Dragonite said:
No one has mentioned Sturdy Regirock yet? The ability seems redundant on such a bulky pokemon, but it allows him to take any hit bar hazards and fire back. Not sure if this new toy will be useful, but it sure beats Clear Body.
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Sturdy is rather useless on Regirock unfortunately. It almost always survives a hit, even from neutral special attackers (occasionally the odd unSTAB super effective attack as well). The common anti-leads only have a small chance to OHKO Regirock, and can bypass Sturdy regardless (Pinsir, Rampardos, Marowak basically). Even worse, you lose some important moves, most notable Stealth Rocks. Sturdy is just not gonna be worth it, imo.
 
Raseri said:
I guess my personal favourite of the group is Cinccino. Sure Technician is nice, but technician and hitting two tail slaps is useless. I think with Skill Link it will be top tier NU, if it gets to stay. It finally won't be outclassed by other normal types because of consistency. And it's just so cute :)
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Probably won't be taken very seriously, but Skill Link Cincinno is an extremely effective lead. Tail Slap hits anything that doesn't resist it (or is extremely bulky) for incredible damage, and his Bullet Seed revokes the manhood of both Golem AND Quaggy.

Detailed Result:
255 Atk Cinccino Bullet Seed vs 0 HP/255 Def Golem
Possible HP Damage: 476, 480, 484, 492, 496, 504, 508, 512, 520, 524, 532, 536, 540, 548, 552, 560
100% chance to OHKO
Detailed Result:
255 Atk Cinccino Bullet Seed vs 255 HP/255 Def Quagsire
Possible HP Damage: 632, 640, 648, 656, 664, 672, 680, 688, 692, 700, 708, 716, 724, 732, 740, 748
100% chance to OHKO

Not even a well-predicted Sucker Punch can OHKO Cinccino, which is great because it p. much means you don't have to deal with Stealf Wocks from any Pokemon weak to Grass.

Detailed Result:
255 Atk Golem Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Cinccino: 44.33% - 52.23%
Possible HP Damage: 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 148, 150, 152
2-3 hits to KO

He's a staple for any of my DW UU teams, and he's quite good at what he does.
 
Am I the only one excited for Hydration swanna?

I use Swanna a decent amount as basically a Ludicolo-alternative self-sufficient rain sweeper (Trading speed for 2 stabs that abuse rain instead of 1 and the ability to break through a good chunk of special walls with brave bird, as seen in this weeks crisis core, [As well as being its own cleric once DW comes out]) and I can't begin to count the amount of times I eat a status while I'm setting up rain.

I don't expect it to be the best new DW ability, Swanna is simply a usable pokemon getting a nice ability, but what I do think is it will not only be a useful ability, but actually relevant still. I say relevant still because, lets be honest, we all know a good chunk of the pokemon listed in the OP are going to be banned/go to higher tiers quickly(Contrary Serp, Possibly regen core, probably cincinno, etc)

Personally I think it deserves at least an honorable mention.
 
I think cincinno will be nice to play around with (if it stays, which i doubt). It breaks through subs and is pretty fast too. sucks that wake-up slap loses power with skill link though.
 
cuckoos said:
255 Atk Cinccino Bullet Seed vs 255 HP/255 Def Quagsire
Possible HP Damage: 632, 640, 648, 656, 664, 672, 680, 688, 692, 700, 708, 716, 724, 732, 740, 748
100% chance to OHKO
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure without skill link bullet seed destroys Quagsire anyways.

@Tribute: I really don't think Hydration will be that useful on Swanna. Swanna isn't particularly bulky so your opponents wont be wasting their time trying to poison/para/burn you, they will just use a move that will likely KO Swanna (which isn't that hard due to her horrid 75/63/63 defenses, and large amount of common weaknesses). I do believe it will be more useful than keen eye or big pecks, but it only has a niche use, and is nothing to get exited about.
 
Well I promised my thoughts so here we go:

Serperior: well this is going OU of course. But as the DW NU tourney showed the person who sends out Serp first loses. It is huge ditto bait and walled by things like Lampent and Amoonguss. Don't get me wrong, it will be incredibly broken and over-centralizing. But it won't be "unstoppable". The council will ban it. Unless another tier bans it first.


Amoonguss: Another Pokemon that will be leaving us. He isn't getting as much of a boost as Serperior but will still be way better than he is now. The problem iI have withAmoonguss now is that he struggles to find time to recover. Regenerator obviously fixes this, and will give balanced teams a nice pivot. I already use Amoonguss as an offensive pivot, regenerator will only make it a lot better. I'm looking forward to him while he lasts.

Alomomola: See Amoonguss, except not guaranteed to leave. Not as good at supporting. But way bulkier physically. Huge wishes are nice too. Still specially frail and huge setup fodder.

Cinccino: I'm really looking forward to this. Since it's already confirmed to be out(I think) you'll be seeing me abusing it as soon as its on the server :). GG Golem, and everything else in the tier. He is amazingly difficult to wall, can deal with most offensive threats and doesn't even have to worry about effect spore anymore because of Regenerator Amoonguss! He will be a key Pokemon on offensive teams, and will finally be used more than those silly other normal types. No more consistency issues :)

Lampent: Shadow Tag works on anything. Everything will run shed shell. It will remove Tangela from the metagame completely. It can remove any threats it wants to. But also won't last in NU. Its just to good for the tier, and will be moving on up very quickly a long with Serp and Ditto.

Sawk: No more silly CB Rampardos :). It will allow me to keep hazards off a lot easier, I never used Sturdy for much anyways. OHKOing Golem is much better. It won't have a huge impact but it will be the ability of choice.

Swoobat: I actually want to run unaware to beat Serp :). But once Serp gets the boot I can see the CM set getting a lot of use, its fast, strong after a boost and has pretty good coverage. I doubt it will be a huge threat right away since it cant beat many of the big threats, and is Ditto bait. But once They leave Swoobat will take off and may become the speedy psychic of choice, and will compete with Musharna for slots on a team. Musharna will still be a threat of course, but Swoobat can give it tough competition :)

Emboar: Take Emboar now, make it a little better. Im not sure what extra kos Reckless gets but hey, the more power the better. Emboar usage won't rise, but it will remain a toptier NU mon.

Zangoose: Tough to evaluate this one. A better Ursaring? I prefer Cinccino :)

Linoone: I prefer the set now, I'd rather set up more often then get some speed. It will struggle setting up in the new meta though, with all the OP stuff running around.

Ditto: GG Offense. Make sure you are walled by something common or else Ditto will beat you. Ditto is bork, ban pls.


Gothitelle: Maybe this can stay NU? It still seems broken since it can turn lots of the tier into fodder, but it doesnt have the typing or moveset of Lampent. So it will be a lesser Lampent at first IMO.

Pinsir: Scarf Moxie in NU? Moxie without using Mightyena? I want this one so bad. It will be great and shouldn't even move up!
 
Yeah sorry for stealing the second page of this thread, but the release of loads of new stuff required its own thread. Please continue to use this thread to discuss the potential future releases.
 
In my opinion Sawk will go from a top 10 mon to the bottom of the barrel in NU. It's best set, the Choice set will be completely unusuable once Shadow Tag Lampent starts terrorizing the metagame. Lampent with an Air Balloon gets to +6 ,+6 and behind a sub with ease on a Choice locked Sawk.

If anything, people will be relegated to the widely inferior Fist Plate set.
 
TLCJR4LIFE said:
In my opinion Sawk will go from a top 10 mon to the bottom of the barrel in NU. It's best set, the Choice set will be completely unusuable once Shadow Tag Lampent starts terrorizing the metagame. Lampent with an Air Balloon gets to +6 ,+6 and behind a sub with ease on a Choice locked Sawk.

If anything, people will be relegated to the widely inferior Fist Plate set.
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Ill have to disagree with you on that tbh :/ Sawk will still be a pretty good pokemon, and will still have its uses especially when Mold Breaker is released. its not like all sawk are choiced either! ive seen fist plate and even subsplit sawk so far, the fact that it got Ice Punch only boosts it even more. Also take into account that its pretty easy to predict when lamp will come in, so you can just use EQ on the switch in kill it, plus shadow tag lamp isnt even released from what ive heard (if it IS released i would like to see a screenshot)
 
If it's holding an Air Balloon you are still screwed. And that doesn't even speak to the fact that Lampent can still come in after a KO, effectively making your Choice Sawk a pacified Stone Edger.

Fist Plate will probably be the norm once Lampent is released.

Subsplit doesnt sound that great in practice but on paper Sawk has decent stats and bulk to maybe pull it off.
 
TLCJR4LIFE said:
If it's holding an Air Balloon you are still screwed. And that doesn't even speak to the fact that Lampent can still come in after a KO, effectively making your Choice Sawk a pacified Stone Edger.

Fist Plate will probably be the norm once Lampent is released.

Subsplit doesnt sound that great in practice but on paper Sawk has decent stats and bulk to maybe pull it off.
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if lampent attempts to switch in and it has air baloon, you can just OHKO it with stone edge, and it isnt like lampent is hard to revenge kill by something like cincinno even after it sets up, its slow, you also cant hold baloon and eviolite at the same time, so you have to choose between evading EQ and having actual bulk.

i dont really see why one pokemon would make a pokemon instabad, people use shit like ferrothorn in DW ou when chandelure exists .-.
 
I really don't think a boosting set will be Lampents claim to fame. Rather a choiced set based on revenge killing. Be able to come in on a move that won't harm Lampent, proceed to lock in and beat it with a strong specs boosted move. Similar to how Dugtrio would trap a fire/steel/rock type as most of their moves are largely ineffective.
 
Molk said:
if lampent attempts to switch in and it has air baloon, you can just OHKO it with stone edge, and it isnt like lampent is hard to revenge kill by something like cincinno even after it sets up, its slow, you also cant hold baloon and eviolite at the same time, so you have to choose between evading EQ and having actual bulk.

i dont really see why one pokemon would make a pokemon instabad, people use shit like ferrothorn in DW ou when chandelure exists .-.
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If you are using something like

Lampent

Air Balloon

1 IV Attack

252 SpA , 252 Spd


Flame Charge
Substitute
Calm Mind
Flamethrower



You can sweep pretty confidently as long as your opponent isn't carrying an absorber. Simply because Ciccino will be WAY too popular and Flame Charge will probably be a lot more necessary than extra coverage. And Sub is needed to beat Ditto.

Also you can't just OHKO with Stone Edge when you are Choice locked. Duh.
 
To be fair, if you see that they have Lampent and still insist on using Close Combat with a choice-locked Sawk (despite the fact that it would give said Lampent free setup) then you probably deserve to lose.

This could possibly be an issue without team preview, but as it stands it really shouldn't be one at all.
 
Quick Attack is an option on Toxic Boost Zangoose. With STAB and Toxic Boost it's a 90 BP priority attack off 361 attack (Adamant). Not too far from Sucker Punch on Toxicroak or Extremespeed on Arcanine/Lucario (though those usually carry Life Orb as well). Nonetheless, Quick Attack gives it a definite niche over Ursaring or Cinccino. If it manages to get to +2 it will horribly maim most faster things with Quick Attack and absolutely crush almost everything else with Facade. I'd calced it for another tier where +2 Quick Attack was very near to KO-ing stuff like Raikou and Azelf (basically provide SR or a little prior damage). In NU, it should make quick work of Absol or Cinccino trying to revenge. The only problem is 4MSS since Facade is a given and you'd have to pick between Close Combat and Night Slash on SD sets.
 
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