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New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread "Mark 2"
- Thread starter gengod
- Start date
- Status
Uh, I'm pretty sure this thread exists to keep "wannabe set makers" out of C&C. This is where your gimmick goes when you think for some reason you should try to look for new sets or try to be creative, both of which are things that C&C is not for. C&C is for sets that are tested, true, and _good_. This thread is for people that mindlessly try to be creative, bitch about who "created" the set, and other stuff.
Basically, don't direct people to C&C unless they happened to "propose" a really awesome set by chance. If someone is not smart enough to figure out where to post a revamp then they are definitely not the kind of people that should be making sets in the first place.
To make it short, this thread makes C&C better by keeping people out of it. I do agree with Katherine's sentiments on the thread to an extent: this isn't where you'll find the smartest or most quality discussion. However, the thread serves a very important purpose.
It's also good for curious people who think that they found something and want feedback, but no one uses it for that anymore.
Basically, don't direct people to C&C unless they happened to "propose" a really awesome set by chance. If someone is not smart enough to figure out where to post a revamp then they are definitely not the kind of people that should be making sets in the first place.
To make it short, this thread makes C&C better by keeping people out of it. I do agree with Katherine's sentiments on the thread to an extent: this isn't where you'll find the smartest or most quality discussion. However, the thread serves a very important purpose.
It's also good for curious people who think that they found something and want feedback, but no one uses it for that anymore.
Attempt at a Sunny Day team opener:
Medishamble
Medicham @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- Sunny Day
- Vacuum Wave / Psycho Cutter
- Brick Break
Obviously lead with the fake out. Medicham's excellent attack right off the bat can make this a reasonably decent attack. The main thing is to get Sunny Day up (for that type of team). Life Orb makes the Fake Out that bit more annoying, but Focus Sash means you can get Sunny Day out if you're faced with an Azelf or something that would not hesitate to take you down. It's probably a bit too case-specific to be of any use to most people, but I just liked the idea of Medicham opening. Vacuum Wave is there for more early damage if I wish. With Focus Sash I'm pretty much ensured of:
Fake Out -> Vacuum Wave -> Sunny Day.
Faster priority move users should obviously be dealt with accordingly. Perhaps the speed EVs should be moved to defense given the priority moves?
Medishamble
Medicham @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- Sunny Day
- Vacuum Wave / Psycho Cutter
- Brick Break
Obviously lead with the fake out. Medicham's excellent attack right off the bat can make this a reasonably decent attack. The main thing is to get Sunny Day up (for that type of team). Life Orb makes the Fake Out that bit more annoying, but Focus Sash means you can get Sunny Day out if you're faced with an Azelf or something that would not hesitate to take you down. It's probably a bit too case-specific to be of any use to most people, but I just liked the idea of Medicham opening. Vacuum Wave is there for more early damage if I wish. With Focus Sash I'm pretty much ensured of:
Fake Out -> Vacuum Wave -> Sunny Day.
Faster priority move users should obviously be dealt with accordingly. Perhaps the speed EVs should be moved to defense given the priority moves?
Anyone can write a C&C. I think... But its much easier posting here a Pokemon 4 Moves and a brief explanation instead of writing a book about the Pokemon. While this thread hasn't been top notch as of late it still doesn't mean Pokemon being posted here are ineffective. Ugh..
A book? More like a good paragraph, something I know some cannot do.
I made this set to use with SubPetaya Empoleon:
Celebi@Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 92 Def / 36 Spe
- Light Screen
- Seed Bomb
- Recover
- Thunder-Wave / Leech Seed / Sword Dance
Celebi
- Resists Fighting, Grass, Water, Ground, Psychic, Electric
- Is weak to Bug, Dark, Posion, Fire, Ghost, Ice, Flying
Empoleon
- Resists/Immune Posion, Bug, Dark, Psychic, Flying, Water, Ice, Ghost, Dragon, Normal, Rock, Steel
- Is weak to Electric, Ground, Fighting
Key
Celebi resists, Empoleon is weak to.
Empoleon resists, Celebi is weak to.
Both of them resist, a bonus.
A weakness not covered.
Description:
Point is, Celebi and Empoleon cover each other's weaknesses almost perfectly. Not only that, they resist every type except Fire. Using them together can only help Empoleon sweep.
The magic of the set is the EVs. You 2HKO bold 232/252 Vaporeon on average with SR and Leftovers factored in. You also 3HKO bold 252/252 Suicune. Neither of them have instant recovery, but both of them are very likely to prevent Empoleon from sweeping (especially if they have Roar or HP Electric).
Why Seed Bomb? Grass knot does pathetic damage to Vaporeon, and Suicune will likely have a CM under its belt once you switch in which means it has more Special Defense. Then you can set up a Light Screen and +1 Suicune can't 3HKO you. The last slot is filler mostly. T-Wave can let Empoleon set up a sub faster, Leech Seed for more support, or Sword Dance to easily kill the 2 bulky-Waters. After a Sword Dance, expect to 2HKO Blissey and possibly 1HKO Tyraniar which is what the 36 in speed are for. Rest of the EVs are in defense, to better take Earthquakes and Fighting attacks for Empoleon.
Oh, yeah. I realize I don't have a name for it. Screen Support?
I made this set to use with SubPetaya Empoleon:
Celebi@Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 92 Def / 36 Spe
- Light Screen
- Seed Bomb
- Recover
- Thunder-Wave / Leech Seed / Sword Dance
Celebi
- Resists Fighting, Grass, Water, Ground, Psychic, Electric
- Is weak to Bug, Dark, Posion, Fire, Ghost, Ice, Flying
Empoleon
- Resists/Immune Posion, Bug, Dark, Psychic, Flying, Water, Ice, Ghost, Dragon, Normal, Rock, Steel
- Is weak to Electric, Ground, Fighting
Key
Celebi resists, Empoleon is weak to.
Empoleon resists, Celebi is weak to.
Both of them resist, a bonus.
A weakness not covered.
Description:
Point is, Celebi and Empoleon cover each other's weaknesses almost perfectly. Not only that, they resist every type except Fire. Using them together can only help Empoleon sweep.
The magic of the set is the EVs. You 2HKO bold 232/252 Vaporeon on average with SR and Leftovers factored in. You also 3HKO bold 252/252 Suicune. Neither of them have instant recovery, but both of them are very likely to prevent Empoleon from sweeping (especially if they have Roar or HP Electric).
Why Seed Bomb? Grass knot does pathetic damage to Vaporeon, and Suicune will likely have a CM under its belt once you switch in which means it has more Special Defense. Then you can set up a Light Screen and +1 Suicune can't 3HKO you. The last slot is filler mostly. T-Wave can let Empoleon set up a sub faster, Leech Seed for more support, or Sword Dance to easily kill the 2 bulky-Waters. After a Sword Dance, expect to 2HKO Blissey and possibly 1HKO Tyraniar which is what the 36 in speed are for. Rest of the EVs are in defense, to better take Earthquakes and Fighting attacks for Empoleon.
Oh, yeah. I realize I don't have a name for it. Screen Support?
A book? More like a good paragraph, something I know some cannot do.
I made this set to use with SubPetaya Empoleon:
Celebi@Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 92 Def / 36 Spe
- Light Screen
- Seed Bomb
- Recover
- Thunder-Wave / Leech Seed / Sword Dance
Celebi
- Resists Fighting, Grass, Water, Ground, Psychic, Electric
- Is weak to Bug, Dark, Posion, Fire, Ghost, Ice, Flying
Empoleon
- Resists/Immune Posion, Bug, Dark, Psychic, Flying, Water, Ice, Ghost, Dragon, Normal, Rock, Steel
- Is weak to Electric, Ground, Fighting
Key
Celebi resists, Empoleon is weak to.
Empoleon resists, Celebi is weak to.
Both of them resist, a bonus.
A weakness not covered.
Description:
Point is, Celebi and Empoleon cover each other's weaknesses almost perfectly. Not only that, they resist every type except Fire. Using them together can only help Empoleon sweep.
The magic of the set is the EVs. You 2HKO bold 232/252 Vaporeon on average with SR and Leftovers factored in. You also 3HKO bold 252/252 Suicune. Neither of them have instant recovery, but both of them are very likely to prevent Empoleon from sweeping (especially if they have Roar or HP Electric).
Why Seed Bomb? Grass knot does pathetic damage to Vaporeon, and Suicune will likely have a CM under its belt once you switch in which means it has more Special Defense. Then you can set up a Light Screen and +1 Suicune can't 3HKO you. The last slot is filler mostly. T-Wave can let Empoleon set up a sub faster, Leech Seed for more support, or Sword Dance to easily kill the 2 bulky-Waters. After a Sword Dance, expect to 2HKO Blissey and possibly 1HKO Tyraniar which is what the 36 in speed are for. Rest of the EVs are in defense, to better take Earthquakes and Fighting attacks for Empoleon.
Oh, yeah. I realize I don't have a name for it. Screen Support?
Why not Reflect over Light Screen?
Because Empoleon already has a great special defence, and is weak to the very common earthquakes and fighting attacks, both are phsical. So a Reflect can help it survive against them, even the Earthquakes with STAB (Flygon) or a STAB CC (luke,gallade). That would help it set up easily with only electric as the only thing to worry about.
There's Earth Power, Aura Sphere... not to mention Magnezone and Heatran.
How could you be banned, 1234gjy?
How could you be banned, 1234gjy?
I'm trying to distribute the EVs for some Kecleon and I just wanted to get some of Smogon's opinions on how to go about it. Now I understand that Kecleon isn't the greatest pokemon and any other pokemon can probably accomplish these sets better, but I'm just trying to get the most out of this cool pokemon. Also I'm not trying to propose a new standard set or anything, it's really more of a personal thing.
The first Kecleon:
Kecleon @ Choiceband
Careful (+spD. -spA)
~Trick
~Substitute
~Focus Punch
~Sucker Punch
-Pit against special attackers or anyone else who doesn't want to get stuck with one move and trick them a choice band to screw them over. Since most special types are resistant to themselves they will most likely switch giving Kecleon a free turn to either set up a sub to start focus punching or run away. Kecleon can also use the choiceband himself to cause some surprise damage.
EVs: 252HP/252Atk/6spD
This brings Kecleon to 324 HP, 279(418) Atk and 304 spD. Now I know little about the actual numerical values of stats that one should aim for, so I'm wondering what kind of EV spread will give me the most mileage out of the little guy.
The second one is for support and mini tanking:
Kecleon @ Leftovers
Careful (+spD,-spA)
~Magic Coat/Stealth Rock
~Thunderwave/Stealth Rock
~Substitute
~Seismic Toss
-More indirect. Annoyer and slow steady damager. MAX HP is a given, but should I even attempt to split the defenses?
The first Kecleon:
Kecleon @ Choiceband
Careful (+spD. -spA)
~Trick
~Substitute
~Focus Punch
~Sucker Punch
-Pit against special attackers or anyone else who doesn't want to get stuck with one move and trick them a choice band to screw them over. Since most special types are resistant to themselves they will most likely switch giving Kecleon a free turn to either set up a sub to start focus punching or run away. Kecleon can also use the choiceband himself to cause some surprise damage.
EVs: 252HP/252Atk/6spD
This brings Kecleon to 324 HP, 279(418) Atk and 304 spD. Now I know little about the actual numerical values of stats that one should aim for, so I'm wondering what kind of EV spread will give me the most mileage out of the little guy.
The second one is for support and mini tanking:
Kecleon @ Leftovers
Careful (+spD,-spA)
~Magic Coat/Stealth Rock
~Thunderwave/Stealth Rock
~Substitute
~Seismic Toss
-More indirect. Annoyer and slow steady damager. MAX HP is a given, but should I even attempt to split the defenses?
Keckleon's defense is only decent & its HP is worse... tricking a Choice Band on something like Technitop (or even Gallade with the UU experiment) will be your downfall.I'm trying to distribute the EVs for some Kecleon and I just wanted to get some of Smogon's opinions on how to go about it. Now I understand that Kecleon isn't the greatest pokemon and any other pokemon can probably accomplish these sets better, but I'm just trying to get the most out of this cool pokemon. Also I'm not trying to propose a new standard set or anything, it's really more of a personal thing.
The first Kecleon:
Kecleon @ Choiceband
Adamant
~Trick
~Return
~Focus Punch
~Sucker Punch
-Pit against special attackers or anyone else who doesn't want to get stuck with one move and trick them a choice band to screw them over. Since most special types are resistant to themselves they will most likely switch giving Kecleon a free turn to either set up a sub to start focus punching or run away. Kecleon can also use the choiceband himself to cause some surprise damage.
EVs: 252HP/252Atk/6spD that slow? you'll get pwned b4 u can say crap
This brings Kecleon to 324 HP, 279(418) Atk and 304 spD. Now I know little about the actual numerical values of stats that one should aim for, so I'm wondering what kind of EV spread will give me the most mileage out of the little guy.
The second one is for support and mini tanking:
Kecleon @ Leftovers
Careful (+spD,-spA)
~Magic Coat/Stealth Rock
~Thunderwave/Stealth Rock
~Substitute
~Seismic Toss
-More indirect. Annoyer and slow steady damager. MAX HP is a given, but should I even attempt to split the defenses? depends... what do u want to wall?
I saw your thread about this... don't worry, I did something like that too.
Hooray 4 Metallica! <random>
Normally I'l let Ryouu defend his own set but
You realise both Focus and Sucker Punch have a priotity modifier, right? Speed doesn't matter.
He's not trying to make a Tricking CB user; there's one of those in the analysis already. He's looking at disabling and setting up on special attackers, hence the Sub and Careful.
If they were better off with a CB they'd already have the item. A CB takes away TechniTop's ability to get free Fake Out damage, and Gallade can no longer Swords Dance or use support moves. With a CB you get the luxury of playing the prediction game a lot more safely.
You realise both Focus and Sucker Punch have a priotity modifier, right? Speed doesn't matter.
He's not trying to make a Tricking CB user; there's one of those in the analysis already. He's looking at disabling and setting up on special attackers, hence the Sub and Careful.
If they were better off with a CB they'd already have the item. A CB takes away TechniTop's ability to get free Fake Out damage, and Gallade can no longer Swords Dance or use support moves. With a CB you get the luxury of playing the prediction game a lot more safely.
Anti-Lead Abomasnow
@ Focus Sash
Ability : Snow Warning
Naive Nature
252 Speed / 190 Atk / 72 Sp Atk
Superpower
Earthquake/HP Fire
Blizzard
Seed Bomb/Shadow Ball
Anti-lead Abomasnow. I don't like it's typing so I decided to slap a focus sash to it. This thing gets priority over Tyranitar sandstorm and the point of this is to negate ALL common suicide-leads. Most will have a hard time taunting first or sr'ing first. I based on the attacks on common leads I am seeing today.
Blizzard + hailstorm will ohko aerodactly
Brick Break + hailstorm will ohko Tyranitar (depending on EV Spread)
Shadow Ball has always ohko'd Gengar and Azelf for me with hailstorm in effect.
I havn't tested Seed bomb yet but it was to take care of bulky-water switch ins. As for Earthquake/HP Fire, I hit harder on Jirachi with earthquake but loose coverage to a forgotten lead like Bronzong.
Ability : Snow Warning
Naive Nature
252 Speed / 190 Atk / 72 Sp Atk
Superpower
Earthquake/HP Fire
Blizzard
Seed Bomb/Shadow Ball
Anti-lead Abomasnow. I don't like it's typing so I decided to slap a focus sash to it. This thing gets priority over Tyranitar sandstorm and the point of this is to negate ALL common suicide-leads. Most will have a hard time taunting first or sr'ing first. I based on the attacks on common leads I am seeing today.
Blizzard + hailstorm will ohko aerodactly
Brick Break + hailstorm will ohko Tyranitar (depending on EV Spread)
Shadow Ball has always ohko'd Gengar and Azelf for me with hailstorm in effect.
I havn't tested Seed bomb yet but it was to take care of bulky-water switch ins. As for Earthquake/HP Fire, I hit harder on Jirachi with earthquake but loose coverage to a forgotten lead like Bronzong.
Believe me, I checked. So unless the Competitive Discussion thread had an error, Abomasnow doesn't learn SuperPower.
Check here for a viable Anti-lead: Abomasnow Full Revamp
Check here for a viable Anti-lead: Abomasnow Full Revamp
Okay I would like to do a C&C update and add my set for Clefable but I want to make sure I'm legit enough here before I go claiming a thread.
So without further ado
I have been using Protect+Encore+Orb Clefable for over a year now with many variations and I have found it to be versatile and useful to the various teams I have run. Clefable got some more useful moves with the Platinum move tutors that now make it have just the right stuff. This particular lead set is well tested and is not gimmicky though some of it's earlier variations may have been.
No lead can handle everything but Clefable can be whatever you want it
to be while still messing up lot of lead threats. Note that preventing stealth rock from going up on the leads is not a goal of this set.
I'm going to share with you the one I feel is most effective at the moment.
Clefable @ Flame Orb
Impish(+Def -SpAtt)
252HP/ 212 Def/ 40 SpDef/ 4 Speed
Protect/Stealth Rock/Light Screen
Encore
Counter
Knock off/Trick
-Flame orb vs toxic orb
Flame orb at the moment is better and is better on all non-attacking lead sets as it effects all pokemon including steels if tricked. Toxic orb provides the same effect without cutting your attack so if you are going to use an offensive variation use toxic orb. Flame orb works well if Jirachi/Metagross/Bronzong leads(usually physical) get trick happy cutting their attack and shaving off their HP. Just be careful not to get it postmarked "Return to sender" for one of your team mates later on
The main advantage with orb'd leads is that you can switch into status later in battle.
Encore is probably the most important part of this set. It is an amazing move for a lead to have. Encore works great excellently in supporting your team throughout the match. Blissey for example thunderwaves, you switch in encore it and knock off the incoming pokes item.
Protect served especially well in the past with sleep leads but they aren't as common nowdays. It's still worthy of mention as it helps with unpredictable leads and serves well against those that like to explode. Those that are comfortable with their prediction skills and don't mind the nowdays rare hypnosis leads cannot go wrong with Stealth Rock as there are many pokes that you can't do a whole lot to on turn one. Light screen supports your team and makes them more likely to use physical attacks which can be countered.
Trick- Do I need to explain why trick is good with flame orb? If Clefable survives the lead which more often than likely it will, it makes a great switch in to any Trick later in the game. However, for many reasons trick is inferior to...
Knock Off was it's second godsend from Arceus for platinum for two reasons in particular. Leads often carry this nasty move called Taunt which totally cripples support leads. Knock off counts as an attack so at the minimum you will be able get to at least get rid of their item. The second reason is that encoring usually causes many blind switches. You can knock off the incoming pokes item which usually will reveal its set and/or neuter it for the match. You can then make an appropriate switch in yourself.
Counter is the great surprise on this set. Clefable has pretty good special defense and a lot of leads are physical attackers and I go on at great length later on it's uses. The defense EV's very specifically go well counter here. With it's defense spread here it can take hits very well and can bounce back physical hits for surprise KO's.
So here is how this particular clefable deals with the top leads in no particular order. After tons of playtesting this is what usually happens for these particular leads.
Well that is about it if you have any more questions about what Clefable would do agaisnt certain leads post away. I would love to hear comments.
So without further ado
OU Support Lead Clefable
Most lead sets work best with Protect, Encore and an Flame or Toxic Orb as well as some simple prediction.
I have been using Protect+Encore+Orb Clefable for over a year now with many variations and I have found it to be versatile and useful to the various teams I have run. Clefable got some more useful moves with the Platinum move tutors that now make it have just the right stuff. This particular lead set is well tested and is not gimmicky though some of it's earlier variations may have been.
No lead can handle everything but Clefable can be whatever you want it
to be while still messing up lot of lead threats. Note that preventing stealth rock from going up on the leads is not a goal of this set.
I'm going to share with you the one I feel is most effective at the moment.
Clefable @ Flame Orb
Impish(+Def -SpAtt)
252HP/ 212 Def/ 40 SpDef/ 4 Speed
Protect/Stealth Rock/Light Screen
Encore
Counter
Knock off/Trick
-Flame orb vs toxic orb
Flame orb at the moment is better and is better on all non-attacking lead sets as it effects all pokemon including steels if tricked. Toxic orb provides the same effect without cutting your attack so if you are going to use an offensive variation use toxic orb. Flame orb works well if Jirachi/Metagross/Bronzong leads(usually physical) get trick happy cutting their attack and shaving off their HP. Just be careful not to get it postmarked "Return to sender" for one of your team mates later on
The main advantage with orb'd leads is that you can switch into status later in battle.
Encore is probably the most important part of this set. It is an amazing move for a lead to have. Encore works great excellently in supporting your team throughout the match. Blissey for example thunderwaves, you switch in encore it and knock off the incoming pokes item.
Protect served especially well in the past with sleep leads but they aren't as common nowdays. It's still worthy of mention as it helps with unpredictable leads and serves well against those that like to explode. Those that are comfortable with their prediction skills and don't mind the nowdays rare hypnosis leads cannot go wrong with Stealth Rock as there are many pokes that you can't do a whole lot to on turn one. Light screen supports your team and makes them more likely to use physical attacks which can be countered.
Trick- Do I need to explain why trick is good with flame orb? If Clefable survives the lead which more often than likely it will, it makes a great switch in to any Trick later in the game. However, for many reasons trick is inferior to...
Knock Off was it's second godsend from Arceus for platinum for two reasons in particular. Leads often carry this nasty move called Taunt which totally cripples support leads. Knock off counts as an attack so at the minimum you will be able get to at least get rid of their item. The second reason is that encoring usually causes many blind switches. You can knock off the incoming pokes item which usually will reveal its set and/or neuter it for the match. You can then make an appropriate switch in yourself.
Counter is the great surprise on this set. Clefable has pretty good special defense and a lot of leads are physical attackers and I go on at great length later on it's uses. The defense EV's very specifically go well counter here. With it's defense spread here it can take hits very well and can bounce back physical hits for surprise KO's.
So here is how this particular clefable deals with the top leads in no particular order. After tons of playtesting this is what usually happens for these particular leads.
Code:
[B]Machamp[/B]
You always counter turn one as No guard hit's through protect.
It's ev'd to always survive a Max attack non banded Dynamipunch and counter for the KO barring confusion. If they substitute on turn one, you outspeed it and encore it into substitute. Knock off the switch or make your own
[B]Tyranitar[/B]
Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower is sadly going to be a KO.
Clefable takes Damage: 203 - 239
Damage: 51.52% - 60.66% from CB crunch Meaning it will always CounterKO Tyranitar from crunch or 2 pursuits
Stone edge Damage: 253 - 298
Damage: 64.21% - 75.63% KO with counter
Protect and counter is the best option.It can survive all non bancded or LO superpower and can counter the attack back for the ko. If it's one of the scarf special attackers make the appropriate switch.
Lead Tar in the analysis is slower and will get it's first move usually substitute, encored.
[B]Infernape[/B]
Protect on fake out encore on their stealth rock. Most will stealth rock after fake out before attacking as they don't feel a threat from weather.
However
Close combat
Damage: 279 - 328
Damage: 70.81% - 83.25% Focus sash saves if you counter :(.
You can encore stelth rock if they don't encore your protect themselves but encore is a rare sight on leadape
[B]Aerodactyl [/B]
The great thing here is that even if you are taunted you can still deal with the standard lead. Always encore turn 1. If they SR you have done your job and you knock off the switch in. If you are taunted, counter it's attacks
Aero does 36.29% - 42.89% with stone edge so you can counter 2 of them and KO barring a CH.
EQ Damage: 96 - 112
Damage: 24.37% - 28.43%
Rock Slide
Damage: 108 - 127
Damage: 27.41% - 32.23% Meaning you can take on most flinch hax
Knock off if you suspect a switch after 1 counter
[B]Metagross [/B]
are tricky to predict which is why protect still helps. If you predict a non Choice band lead you can encore their stealth rock on turn one. Most nowdays will stealth rock or trick not expecting you to do anything significant in return so encore works pretty good here
If you protect on turn 1 you can survive 100% (except critical hits), counter the meteor mash that comes from whatever set and KO most of the time. 228 Def ev's ensures that you will always survive 2 non banded meteor mashes but the very small% chance of it being max damage both times isn't worth the EV points. If you suspect a choice band lead you can counter Meteor Mash for the KO on Metagross
Flame orb tricking cripples metagross so unless he tricks on the same turn he will end up with a burn the rest of the match. Take THAT Clear Body!
Protect gets special note against explosion.
[B]Jirachi[/B]
ScarfRachi is handled pretty well.
Jiracahi can do no more than 33% max with Iron Head or Zen Headbutt meaning you have 3 turns in which to do something in return. You can trick your flame or knock off it's item and let somebody else handle the less threating jirachi. Counter is not really recommended due to the low damage output and flinch hax
Other leads can get encored as jirachi will not be able to do much to Clefable
[B]Azelf[/B]
Encore turn 1 most of the time.
Most are eager to Stealth rock and not taunt you for some reason. I guess if this Clefable becomes popular that could be a problem but out of the hundreds of Azelf leads I encountered on the ladder only 1 ever taunted me.
A notable variation on the primary options is light screening in place of counter while they stealth rock and then protecting while they explode. Still susceptible to taunt but is very effective and very funny :)
[B]Gengar[/B]
Protect scout and switch most of the time. Life orb and specs Focus blast sadly destroys this physically defensive clefable but all other item sets FB's do not OHKO so you can encore and switch or knock off if you feel like it.
Most gengar are scarfed so they will switch after being locked into hypnosis if they still use it. Depending on what move they first used you can send in an appropriate counter. If they trick you they get an orb. Agian, here it shows why flame orb is better as toxic orb doesn't poisin Gengar. Also cuts in half the attack of focus punchers.
Speaking of which if they substitute on turn one and you encore their focus punch they are locked into substitute. ScarfRotom makes and excellent team mate here as no gengar would shadow ball clefable meaning that after you have scouted it's attack you can switch it in with very little risk at all
[B]
Swampert[/B]
The reason for 4 Speed EV's to break the speed ties that can sometimes happen here to allow better use of encore on turn 2.
Knock off/Stealth rock turn 1 and then encore their stealth rock. Some will switch after they get stealth rock set up so knock off makes a great option to use on turn 2
[B]Bronzong[/B]
Protect from hypnosis and encore it or their stealth rock if they didn't use hypnosis. Knock off the incoming switch. Note again that on rain dance and certain leads you can protect and waste it's explosion if your prediction skills are correct.
[B]Yanmega [/B]
Protect from hypnosis+ knock off/encore , then switch. Stealth rock prevents it being effective later in the match so that is also a good option on turn one as many will protect on turn 1 nowdays with the accuracy drop on hypnosis
[B]Crobat[/B]
Protect encore switch. If encoring an attack, knock off if they try and hypnosis for some reason( which happens a lot. A suprinsingly high amount on the ladder never read that clefable is statused after turn one)
[B]Zapdos [/B]
Zapdos leads? Really? Can't say I've ever seen one. Protect. Knock off or encore, switch
[B]Jolteon[/B] It's best to encore in case it subs. If Jolteon thunderwaves you you will lose your speed but with magic guard you will never be paralyzed.
[B]Ninjask[/B]
Raaaaaaaaped. Encore turn 1.
[B]Smeargle[/B]
LOL spore leads.Protect and then Encore it's setup move
[B]Abomasnow[/B]
An interesting match up. You cant safely protect on turn one as blizzard hits through protect sometimes. Blizzard does pretty good damage so usually switch to an appropriate resistor. If you choose to use light screen on your set, you will out speed and take minor damage from it's blizzards
If they brick break you can almost always survive another 2 and KO it with counter
Special note here for being immune to hail and leech seed.
[B]Hippowdon[/B]
Depends on your set. For turn 1 If SR over protect than SR. Knock off is always a solid choice but tricking your orb shuts down Hippowdons walling capibilities.
Turn 2 encore stealth rock.
Trick works very well at screwing over Hippowdon Leads who you don't want to encore after they stealth rock. Tricking the flame orb robs its leftovers, gives it a burn which cuts it's attack and takes Hp off every turn. Toxic orb does all sorts of nasty as well to lots of pokes but tricking a flame orb is almost always better.
[B]Weavile[/B] protect and counter
A sword danced brick break will not OHKO should lead weavile be crazy enough to try with scizor everywhere. Unboosted brick breaks do pitiful damage. Knock off it's sash or band and then counter for the KO.
Wow did you read anything in my post? Anything at how this set works?
Really that one is garbage I tried it for a while. You do crap damage even with facade and meteor mash and you are very easily walled especially that early in the match. With those attack ev' and no defense ev's most things KO you before doing any significant amount of damage.
Please explain to me how the set listed on the analysis takes on leads better than they ways I listed in the code box
also
Please tell me what Facade/Meteor Mash/Fire Blast can do offensively against heatran.
Gyarados
Suicune
Salamence
Rhyperior
Zapdos
Rotom...
I can probably find more pokes as well but my point is made. That "lead set" is horrible set up bait and easy switch ins for OU and is at best gimmicky, if not outright suck
My set plays significantly differently as a SUPPORT lead Clefable not an attack lead.
Just a note, Burn still halves your Attack unless you have Guts, so even with a Facade set you are better off without it. (Facade will be boosted to double power, but your attack will be halved, nullifying the boost.)
Also, you may want to fix your grammar (especially all the it's that should be its) before you post it to C&C.
Also, you may want to fix your grammar (especially all the it's that should be its) before you post it to C&C.
"Flame orb at the moment is better and is better on all non-attacking lead sets" I'm aware
And I'm not sure but I think for Facade it doesn't count your physical attack as being cut half.
Yeah I will fix the grammar and stuff. What I wrote here wasn't meant to be C&C worthy. I'm getting my wisdom teeth removed tomorrow so I will have plenty of down time to write a short, grammatically correct analysis.
It does. Burn doesn't cut base power on moves, but the actual Attack stat, which only set damage moves ignore. So he's right in that aspect that it cancels out (although it'll do even less damage than normal damage).
This means the power will be reduced, so leave Toxic Orb as an option for Facade users.
Veedrock, you misread.
"Toxic orb provides the same effect without cutting your attack so if you are going to use an offensive variation that has anything else but Facade use toxic orb."
So he was implying that if you DID have facade as your only option, Flame Orb was a good idea, which is not the case.
As for halving your attack, a burned Pokemon using double-bp (140) Facade does the same amount of damage as that same Pokemon using a regular, 70 bp facade. So yes, halving attack is effectively the same as all your physical attacks being at half bp, and yes, the effect does cancel out.
"Toxic orb provides the same effect without cutting your attack so if you are going to use an offensive variation that has anything else but Facade use toxic orb."
So he was implying that if you DID have facade as your only option, Flame Orb was a good idea, which is not the case.
As for halving your attack, a burned Pokemon using double-bp (140) Facade does the same amount of damage as that same Pokemon using a regular, 70 bp facade. So yes, halving attack is effectively the same as all your physical attacks being at half bp, and yes, the effect does cancel out.
I guess I was thinking of Swellow who I forgot does have guts... I don't really care about that as the set I listed doesn't use facade anyway.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Thanks for clearing that up.
- Status