Tournament and Stats
The first GSC NU tournament using the new tier list has come to a conclusion and I have posted all the replays that were saved from the tournament
here.
For convenience, I am going to copy and paste the stats from the tour here:
GSC NU Tournament Usage Stats
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Raichu | 145 | 76.32% | 46.21% |
| 2 | Feraligatr | 140 | 73.68% | 52.14% |
| 3 | Weezing | 102 | 53.68% | 45.10% |
| 4 | Pineco | 91 | 47.89% | 49.45% |
| 5 | Xatu | 68 | 35.79% | 64.71% |
| 6 | Dugtrio | 66 | 34.74% | 53.03% |
| 7 | Sudowoodo | 42 | 22.11% | 47.62% |
| 8 | Primeape | 41 | 21.58% | 48.78% |
| 9 | Graveler | 35 | 18.42% | 54.29% |
| 10 | Lickitung | 27 | 14.21% | 51.85% |
| 11 | Fearow | 26 | 13.68% | 61.54% |
| 12 | Gastly | 23 | 12.11% | 43.48% |
| 13 | Wigglytuff | 21 | 11.05% | 47.62% |
| 14 | Poliwrath | 20 | 10.53% | 35.00% |
| 15 | Flareon | 18 | 9.47% | 44.44% |
| 16 | Rapidash | 17 | 8.95% | 52.94% |
| 17 | Parasect | 16 | 8.42% | 37.50% |
| 18 | Tangela | 15 | 7.89% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Arbok | 14 | 7.37% | 57.14% |
| 20 | Magmar | 13 | 6.84% | 30.77% |
| 21 | Delibird | 12 | 6.32% | 58.33% |
| 22 | Ninetales | 11 | 5.79% | 54.55% |
| 23 | Golduck | 10 | 5.26% | 40.00% |
| 23 | Hitmontop | 10 | 5.26% | 40.00% |
| 23 | Kingler | 10 | 5.26% | 30.00% |
| 26 | Persian | 8 | 4.21% | 75.00% |
| 27 | Stantler | 7 | 3.68% | 85.71% |
| 27 | Venomoth | 7 | 3.68% | 57.14% |
| 27 | Bayleef | 7 | 3.68% | 14.29% |
| 27 | Sunflora | 7 | 3.68% | 0.00% |
| 31 | Dragonair | 6 | 3.16% | 83.33% |
| 31 | Pidgeot | 6 | 3.16% | 66.67% |
| 31 | Octillery | 6 | 3.16% | 33.33% |
| 31 | Exeggcute | 6 | 3.16% | 33.33% |
| 31 | Hitmonchan | 6 | 3.16% | 33.33% |
| 36 | Cubone | 5 | 2.63% | 40.00% |
| 36 | Porygon | 5 | 2.63% | 20.00% |
| 36 | Hitmonlee | 5 | 2.63% | 20.00% |
| 39 | Ivysaur | 4 | 2.11% | 50.00% |
| 40 | Murkrow | 3 | 1.58% | 33.33% |
| 40 | Aipom | 3 | 1.58% | 33.33% |
| 40 | Ariados | 3 | 1.58% | 33.33% |
| 40 | Machoke | 3 | 1.58% | 33.33% |
| 40 | Noctowl | 3 | 1.58% | 33.33% |
| 45 | Gloom | 2 | 1.05% | 100.00% |
| 45 | Raticate | 2 | 1.05% | 50.00% |
| 45 | Shuckle | 2 | 1.05% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Ledian | 1 | 0.53% | 100.00% |
| 48 | Azumarill | 1 | 0.53% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Dunsparce | 1 | 0.53% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Mantine | 1 | 0.53% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Charmeleon | 1 | 0.53% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Houndour | 1 | 0.53% | 0.00% |
| 48 | Abra | 1 | 0.53% | 0.00% |
As expected, Raichu tops the list with a 76% usage rate, closely followed by Feraligatr at 73.6% usage. There is then a sharp drop to Weezing at 53.6% and a 47.9% usage rate for Pineco.
Stats that were surprising to me:
Xatu at 64% win rate - it's obviously good but Raichu beats it pretty badly, and Feraligatr isn't bad against it, so I am kind of surprised that its win rate is this high.
Fearow at 61.5% win rate - similar with the above, but also loses hard to Rock-types, which appear to be pretty common.
Wigglytuff at 47.6% win rate - I was considering Wigglytuff to be a Pokemon that would probably catch on as a top tier threat, since it has a big and useful movepool and pretty decent stats. I was probably expecting a win rate in the high 50s.
Tangela at 60% win rate - I was pleasantly surprised with how strong Tangela was in
this replay. It is nice to see some success for Grass-types.
Poliwrath at 35% win rate - I knew that Poliwrath was not so great, but 35% is really bad. I am going to partially attribute this to people not figuring out how to use him yet.
Kingler at 30% win rate - Kingler was another pick I expected to be very effective, but apparently Feraligatr's stats are just high enough that Kingler loses a lot of the time.
Persian at 75% win rate - Sub Swagger Psych Up is clearly a very strong strategy in this meta...
Stantler at 85% win rate - Stantler is definitely hugely underrated right now, Normal STAB + EQ is extremely good to have in this meta.
Sunflora at 0% win rate - Just kidding everyone saw this coming.
Dragonair at 83% win rate - I have absolutely no idea how this won any games, let alone 5 out of 6. Who even used this?
We also have stats from the November RoA Community Choice ladder, but there are no win rates so they are not that interesting to me. If anyone wants to make any observations:
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-11/gen2nu-0.txt
Looking at the possibility of a NUBL
Following the conclusion of the tournament, I sent a survey to players who had reasonable levels of success in the tournament (eliminated in R3 or later)) or on the ladder (although I am still trying to find Socks & Crocs who I am pretty sure played the most games on the ladder out of anyone at 128 games). The survey asked their opinion of the current NU metagame with a focus on what they thought about Raichu and/or Feraligatr and the state of the tier.
The responses are below:
(from 1 - not at all enjoyable to 5 - very enjoyable)
Raichu Specific Responses
For this question I included a set of checkboxes with some ideas that people might have or not have about Raichu in the tier. For most of the options I gave, I tried to include possible contrary options as well. There were 11 respondents in total.
Raichu-specific additional comments:
GSC LOWER TIER KING HSA said:
thunder surf resttalk only
Bomber. said:
for sure you have to scout his moveset first but then there are plenty of answers and it cant simply covers all of it with just one moveset.
Bedschibaer said:
When x is the most reliable way to deal with x you tend to not promote healthy metagames. I will admit that the mirrors aren't full luck like rby zam mirrors for example, but conserving pp just in case isn't exactly highly skillful play either.
Century Express said:
I think it's important to focus on team sinergy, rather than falling in the trap of "finding" a specific counter. Over-relying on ST Raichu dittos is a bad idea, ofc. Even though some of its checks (Graveler, Dug, Grass-types) might find trouble with a specific variant, maybe it's a good idea to adapt your own Raichu set / team concept to play around it (e: Seismic Toss Raichu gains a slight advantage against the Surf / Rest-less Raichu, forcing it to Rest can force the RNG game against Kingler or Lickitung). I've been using some slighty agressive teams with moderate success (some Offenses with Pineco / Graveler or Sudowoodo / Weezing or ML + Boom / DBond Gastly, or Paralyze- or Toxic-based strats featuring threats like Wigglytuff or SubSD Kingler for example), and I think there's a decent amount of counterplay against it, even if it might force you to take a more offensive approach sometimes.
Feraligatr Specific Responses
Feraligatr-specific additional comments:
GSC LOWER TIER KING HSA said:
disgusting pocket monster
Bedschibaer said:
It's way too easy to create gamestates where g8r can't be broken. You almost need stuff like boom or setup to even touch it, the latter gets reset by roar g8r.
Century Express said:
Honestly, I don't see Gatr as a broken threat. Sometimes you just need to play patiently around it, and try to find a good opportunity to outplay it. IMO Raichu + any bulky-water is good enough to play around it. Stuff like Kingler and Azumarill are hella anti-meta (especially when people stick to Thunder Raichu instead of TBolt, and ST Gatr instead of Roar), and people should use them more IMO. BP strats are probably a good backup against it, although I need to test it more.
Comments on the GSC NU metagame in general:
Finchinator said:
Fun metagame, but definitely room for improvement. Hope to play it more moving forward!
GSC LOWER TIER KING HSA said:
good games with the best teams end up revolving around the mirror matches (and the movesets that raichu / gatr are running)
pinktidal said:
needs more grass types damnit. overall a solid tier, just feels matchup based and the only viable playstyle is bulky offense. despite that its still fun, just hard to be completely aware of what you’re facing at times
FriendOfMrGolem120 said:
I am not confident to say that I understand the metagame very well at this point.
Bomber. said:
first it was fun then i dont feel as comfortable with build and play and i lost interest, there are certain pokemon def better than others atm and the lack of variety in strategy you can apply sucks.
Ismail said:
Could improve if we thought about having a suspect test for Feraligatr although I might be leaning for Rakchu to stay at the moment
Bedschibaer said:
I feel like it's stupid centralized but that is just a gsc feature. I'd say give it time and more than a single tour, but look into potentially removing those two.
Century Express said:
Overall I think the tier is fine as it is. I think there is a moderate amount of room for creativity (although it's always important to consider Raichu / Gatr / Weezing answers), and they're slighty centralizing (at least teambuilding-wise), although I don't see it as a negative point. On the flipside, too bad NU doesn't have any good Grass-types...
To add my own opinion (since I didn't include it when I filled out the form myself), I think we should probably look at getting rid of one or both of Feraligatr and Raichu. I think Feraligatr is indeed too powerful, and Feraligatr being powerful is one of the main reasons Raichu is so oppressive, since Feraligatr is often what provides Raichu the easy opportunity to switch in. Removing the super tank from the metagame will most likely result in more variety in the Water-types used and make physical attackers stronger. It will probably also result in a small buff to Fire-types. Raichu will also still be excellent, but should not be the same oppressive force without the constant pattern of physical attackers being stopped by Feraligatr.
What I actually disliked the most about the metagame in my most competitive games so far has been my reliance on my SToss Raichu beating the opponent's SToss Raichu. Choosing to Rest or SToss when you and your opponent are both 2 or 1(!) STosses from fainting is horrible, especially since it felt like risk avoidance could simply dig me into a deeper hole, and the teams I used did not seem to have any better move to make in those situations. My Raichu getting paralysed by Finchinator's in the tournament
very much killed my chances that game. However, even if that didn't happen, I have little doubt that the outcome of the Raichu vs Raichu duel would have had a huge impact on the game's outcome. Another example where I felt the outcome depended heavily on the outcome of the Raichu vs Raichu duel is
this one from the OML. In this game, it looks like I have a big advantage, but in reality (partly due to running HPump on Gatr instead of Surf) I am not far from realistically losing if my Raichu faints. This issue can be remedied in the team builder somewhat by having durable backup counters like Grass-types, which also function as solid status spreaders or screen-setters, but I have found overall that even some of the "counters" will eventually lose to Raichu if they keep having to switch into it.
It is clear from the stats that the majority of the players surveyed are in favour of changing something, and most players want to ban at least Feraligatr. One could argue that people haven't taken the time to figure out the strategies that beat Feraligatr Raichu, but I honestly feel like they simply beat so much of the meta themselves that it is almost trivial to cover most other threats in the remaining four slots. It could also be argued that we should wait until a highly competitive tournament such as NUPL (which will hopefully include the tier) before making the decision.
I am not going to put any dates on a decision for the time being but I would like to hear any further opinions on the matter. (Is it too soon? Is Feraligatr clearly busted? Is Raichu the actual culprit that is decreasing the enjoyability of the meta? etc) Comments on the stats are also welcome.