Gen 2 GSC NU Tier List

#1
Recently, there has been a bit of activity in GSC's lower tiers, with GSC NU being the rotational ladder spotlight and having some of its first analyses written, GSC UU being included in the UUPL, and GSC PU being created. Although GSC is a very old generation, it is only fairly recently in comparison that GSC NU came into existence (~2012/13). It was created by a bunch of GSC specialists over at Mount Silver, primarily Crystal_ and Jorgen. It was then subsequently adopted by PO and Smogon.

Now that GSC UU has gained exposure from UUPL, a more official viability ranking thread has been created, and the creation of GSC PU based on the (antiquated) Viability Rankings in the GSC NU forum as well as tiering debates about what should be included in PU have now also brought attention to the fact that GSC NU was created fairly arbitrarily. At the point that GSC NU was created, I would say that the GSC UU metagame was much less developed than it is now, and I think there are some Pokemon that should have made the cutoff for NU that remained UU. Ellicrum has helpfully provided a list of Pokemon that are listed as UU but not included on the viability ranking list, despite numerous NU Pokemon being included (a couple even being in A- and B).

Disjunction who seems to lead GSC NU in the NU forums has not logged in for a while, and our friendly RoA moderator Jellicent has no objections to discussion of potential tiering changes, so below are the candidates and how I perceive them to fare in the relevant metagames. I will be converting my personal NU viability rankings into the S/A/B/C/D system and comparing those against the UU viability rankings, rather than using the rankings in the NU forum.

Pokemon ranked B or above in both tiers


Pikachu
UU: B, NU: A
Pikachu is obviously very powerful, hitting about as hard as Zapdos. In UU, which is a relatively slow tier with lots of bulky hard-hitters, several of which are Water-types, Pikachu's strengths can shine, which enables it to achieve as high as B rank in GSC UU. In NU, where a lot of Pokemon are faster than Pikachu and two of the best Pokemon in the tier outmatch it, it comes in at A. The NU metagame has evolved around Pikachu, which has led to the rise of Dugtrio and other Pokemon that are faster, which has in turn caused Pikachu to sometimes turn into more of a liability than a useful Pokemon - one would often rather have a Pokemon they can actually switch into attacks, and stall teams tend to have it well covered. That said, its effect on the metagame should not be understated, and teams that are underprepared for it can easily be put into very dicey situations against it.


Mr. Mime
UU: A-, NU: A+
Mr. Mime is a Pokemon that brings a lot of utility to the table, with a multitude of possible sets available to it. It has a solid 100 base SpA, and the Pokemon that can wall its attacks in UU can do little about it spreading status or Baton Passing boosts to another Pokemon. In NU, Mr. Mime is clearly one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier, with very few viable Pokemon able to reliably handle it outside of itself. Psychic resists other than Mr. Mime are few and far between, and those that do resist it are mostly demolished by Thunderbolt. However, it does have a very low Defense stat, which can make it difficult to find an opportunity to come in without taking a lot of damage, except against itself. Additionally, it runs the risk of facing Thunder Wave or Shadow Ball Mr. Mime, both of which will make it even more susceptible to other threats. That said, a Pokemon whose best counter is itself does not tend to make for a healthy addition to a tier, so it was arguably a mistake to include Mr. Mime in the first place.


Haunter
UU: A-, NU: A-
I am not sure Haunter deserves such a high rank in the UU viability rankings. I'm presuming it is because of how powerful Granbull is as well as its access to Hypnosis and Explosion and coverage moves that are super effective against the tier's strongest Pokemon. Looking at the UUPL cumulative stats, it had a 37.5% win rate and was used 8 times. In GSC NU, it is quite useful because of its Shadow Ball hitting Mr. Mime hard while also being faster, and the normal and poison immunities are handy against Normal-types and Shuckle. However, Dugtrio switches into it relatively freely if it doesn't get caught by Hypnosis, and it is quite fragile. It can also have 4MS with Explosion/SBall/Tbolt/Psychic/Hypnosis, all of which are highly useful to pose a threat to relevant top tier Pokemon. The NU tier does not have any significant issues handling Haunter.

Unranked UU Pokemon that are currently banned from NU


Omastar
This Pokemon has very high SpA and is probably viable in UU. In theory, it should be able to come into a Granbull and dish out damage to anything that comes in, especially with Spikes up. However, unfortunately its typing and HP/SpD stats don't allow it to switch into much other than Normal-types.
Omastar Surf vs. Granbull: 156-184 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Omastar Surf vs. Nidoqueen: 251-296 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Omastar Hidden Power Electric vs. Slowbro: 131-154 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Omastar Surf vs. Ampharos: 122-144 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery


In NU, I am pretty sure it would smack pretty much everything around while also resisting the STAB attacks of the many powerful Normal types (unlike Octillery/Dewgong). There is no way this thing fits in the current tier.
Omastar Hidden Power Grass vs. Octillery: 134-158 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Omastar Surf vs. Mr. Mime: 100-118 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Omastar Surf vs. Lickitung: 136-160 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Omastar Hidden Power Grass vs. Dewgong: 115-136 (30 - 35.5%) -- 31.4% chance to 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery



Hitmonlee
Hitmonlee is basically like Hitmonchan, which is a solid and balanced NU Pokemon, but with a much better stat distribution (Hitmonchan has 26 higher base Def, from which 15 went into Attack and the other 11 went into Speed for Hitmonlee). Importantly, Hitmonlee is no less bulky on the Special side. Hitmonlee also has access to Meditate which allows it to boost its own attack without sacrificing its Speed. Fighting is not a particular good type in UU, with a lot of the strongest Pokemon resisting it, and Hitmonlee does not learn Earthquake for Nidoqueen, nor does its Reversal set particularly scare Slowbro. In NU, even with its higher speed, it would still be slower than many common Pokemon in the metagame. However, while Mr. Mime is not too scared of switching into Hitmonchan once (even if it ends up tanking HP Ghost), Hitmonlee's attacks are more punishing:
Hitmonchan Hidden Power Ghost vs. Mr. Mime: 137-162 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hitmonchan High Jump Kick vs. Octillery: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hitmonlee Hidden Power Ghost vs. Mr. Mime: 149-176 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. Octillery: 125-147 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


It could be argued that this is a good thing, since it will encourage more people to use Xatu instead of Mr. Mime. I think it is hard to tell if Hitmonlee would be too strong for GSC NU at this point.
Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Hitmonlee: 136-160 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 86.5% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery


Raichu
Raichu is fast and has a pretty solid SpA stat, plus access to Surf. This should in theory allow it to do decent damage to Nidoqueen while dominating Slowking, which is a highly desirable trait in GSC UU. However, its defenses are lacking and it only manages 41.9 - 49.3% against Nidoqueen with Surf, while Nidoqueen almost OHKOs in return with Earthquake. Teams with Ampharos or Hypno essentially wall it permanently, and there are not many Pokemon it can switch into safely. It is not hard to imagine why it does not see a lot of use and has not been listed on the viability rankings.

Raichu obviously does significantly less damage than Pikachu does, so should not be as threatening in GSC NU. However, it is also significantly harder to take down than Pikachu, living an Earthquake from Dugtrio while 2HKOing it with Surf, and being 3HKOed instead of 2HKOed by Mr. Mime, albeit having to rely on Thunder for a chance at 3HKOing in return. It would have plenty of defensive counter options, and would not be able to touch Grass-types if it chooses to use a Restalk set with Surf. It would also potentially make a good Pikachu counter. I would say it would be quite strong in the tier, but it is not clear if it would be overpowered.
Octillery Surf vs. Raichu: 125-147 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Raichu Thunder vs. Octillery: 291-342 (82.4 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Raichu: 267-314 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Raichu Surf vs. Dugtrio: 161-190 (58.9 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mr. Mime Psychic vs. Raichu: 113-133 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 68.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Raichu Thunder vs. Mr. Mime: 107-126 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Light Ball Pikachu Surf vs. Raichu: 106-125 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 4.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Raichu Surf vs. Pikachu: 108-127 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Raichu Surf vs. Raichu: 74-88 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery



Poliwrath
Poliwrath has access to the combination of Lovely Kiss + Belly Drum while also having solid defenses. Its Speed is a bit lacking, but those traits should in theory still be strong in any tier. In UU, Slowbro is a big problem for Poliwrath since it lives anything Poliwrath can throw at it, even at +6, and KOs in return with Psychic. There are also a lot of Pokemon that outspeed and threaten to hit it hard, such as Electabuzz, Dodrio, Haunter, Kadabra, Mr. Mime, Pikachu, Nidoqueen, etc. Thanks to its defenses, a couple of those Pokemon fail to KO with their most powerful attacks even after Belly Drum. However, considering the number of Sleep Talk users, the possibility of Haze users such as Qwilfish and Crobat, and other issues, Poliwrath has failed to gain a foothold in the tier. It also does not help that Quagsire makes a better Speed boost recipient despite Poliwrath's access to Lovely Kiss.

If it were available to use in NU, I think it would be unlikely to pose a significant threat without receiving a Speed boost, but the current metagame from what I have seen does not make a significant effort to stop Speed passing. It is of note that Poliwhirl is also allowed in GSC NU, and barely sees any use despite being faster and having similar LK+BDrum options available to it. It would probably not make an effective Curse user, since Hitmonchan/Hitmontop have better stats, but it would have the niche of being resistant to Water and Ice attacks from Octillery and Dewgong, in exchange for the Electric and Grass weaknesses. So I am uncertain about whether it would be too strong, leaning towards not.
Mr. Mime Psychic vs. Poliwrath: 211-248 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Poliwrath Hidden Power Ghost vs. Mr. Mime: 120-142 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Light Ball Pikachu Thunderbolt vs. Poliwrath: 296-348 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Light Ball Pikachu Thunder vs. Poliwrath: 372-438 (97.1 - 114.3%) -- 84.6% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Dugtrio Earthquake vs. Poliwrath: 97-114 (25.3 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery



Golduck
Golduck has fairly well-rounded stats and a somewhat interesting movepool, learning Cross Chop and Hypnosis. Its speed enables it to outspeed and threaten Nidoqueen in GSC UU, but it is not likely to be able to threaten any of the Pokemon that would switch into it, which often are Restalkers. Similarly, there are many strong Sleep Talk users in GSC NU, meaning it will likely struggle to do anything better than running its own Restalk set in GSC NU. Also, it's likely to be less effective at Restalking than Dewgong or Octillery due to neither its SpA stat nor its defenses standing out as being particularly high in comparison. Its higher speed is also not likely to help it too much, since it is still slower than Pokemon like Mr. Mime, Pikachu, Haunter, Pidgeot, Fearow, etc. It does have the (somewhat) interesting option of using Counter, but this would be far from a reliable option. I have no doubt that Golduck would fit into NU perfectly fine.


Ninetales
Lastly, we come to Ninetales. In GSC UU, it is almost completely useless due to the ubiquity of Slowbro/Slowking. There is almost no reason to consider using it. In GSC NU, the Pokemon that immediately comes to mind to compare it to is Rapidash. Rapidash is not such a great Pokemon in GSC NU, since its defenses are on the low side and it struggles to break water types, even when it activates Sunny Day, because it doesn't learn SolarBeam. Ninetales does not learn SolarBeam either, but it has higher defenses, and trades Rapidash's mostly useless Attack stat for higher SpD, HP, and Def stats. In terms of movepool, both have Hypnosis and the same offensive options, but Ninetales learns a few extra support moves in Roar (which also synergises well with potentially using Toxic), Confuse Ray, and Disable. Roar is definitely interesting, and more viable Roar users would certainly be welcome in the tier. Its high SpA and SpD allow it to potentially go toe-to-toe with Mr. Mime (at a possible cost of having to use Restalk to compete with Restalk Mr. Mime), but it would still fear tier staples like Dugtrio and Octillery. I think there is no reason that Ninetales should not be allowed in GSC NU.


I am hoping the RoA community can assist in determining which Pokemon should stay in their current tiers and which should swap their status. Note that I am not looking to change the GSC UU metagame at all.

My personal opinion about how this should be handled is, the Pokemon currently in the tier should be kept, and the Pokemon that would not be overwhelming for the tier should be dropped into NU. I have some attachment to the current metagame, having built probably more than 20 teams in it and won the GSC NU tournament, and I think that Mr. Mime, Pikachu etc are representative of the tier. However, I'm pretty sure there are others with different opinions about how it should be handled. Another possibility I thought of is, hold a poll for each Pokemon listed above where any Smogon user can vote, then host a bo3 single elimination GSC NU tournament with the changes as a result of that poll enacted, then finally allow all participants who played their games in the tournament to vote on the final tiering.

If anyone has any suggestions, please post them, as well as obviously any opinions on the Pokemon themselves and how strong they are/would be in NU.
 

Oglemi

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#2
Imo there's close to zero harm to dropping something that isn't used in the higher tier and won't have much of an effect if anything in the lower tier. I did this when I started ADV NU by dropping arbok, torkoal, dunsparce, sableye, shedinja, octillery, shuckle and yanma into NU from UU, and none of them apart from sableye have really scratched the surface of having an effect on the meta. I've been further considering dropping more from UU that don't see usage there but that's another topic.

So, I say do what feels right. I personally wouldn't raise something unless it's broken or clearly more representative of the higher tier, which from the sounds of things pikachu and Mr mime are not. And I would drop everything you listed but omastar due to your admitted hesitation. For reference, I personally did not drop girafarig into nu for the same reason.
 

Akir

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#3
So PU fairly recently has started tiering older gens, entirely because we got very bored waiting the almost-full year for SM PU to be established. Regardless of the opinion of the results, the process gave me plenty of insight to older gen tiering, so I have an outsider's perspective that I feel is rather valuable.

Personally I feel as though the process for working out tiers in gens 1-3 was rightfully replaced, as the final result for Gen3 PU in particular seems to be rather inconsistent based on Gen3 NU VRs. I'm definitely not excluding the idea that these old VRs are simply not updated regularly enough to properly reflect the metagame, but this does pose the unique problem of "feeling it out" being inconsistent. According to this VR (which I am again open to the idea of it being woefully outdated) Grovyle sitting in Top of C rank is more representative of the metagame than Sunflora, who sits a full rank higher. This trend continues with mons such as Charmeleon being kept NU when other higher-ranked mons like Dragonair are booted into PU. Combined with my personal philosophy of believing that no 1 single person can properly decide the fate of a tier, I would like to suggest something potentially drastic:

I think that tiers in gens 1-3 should be decided by a hard line in the VR. If a mon is in this VR rank or lower, it falls to the lower tier.

This does mean that the VRs will have to be occasionally updated to reflect the current tournament atmosphere, and it does also potentially open the door for "drops" to occur in old gens. However, I do think that having an objective point to draw the line would solve a lot of the problems highlighted in this thread.

tl;dr = I suggest slightly overhauling the system for deciding tiers in gens 1-3 to make them slightly more objective and consistent
 
#4
I am happy for Akir's suggestion to happen for new tiers, but I think it would not be ideal for tiers with existing metagames and players to have to start from scratch unless there is something clearly wrong with the existing tier, and the majority of the player base agrees with it.

Also, I think that before any new tier is created using that method, the VR it is created from should be looked over by the most experienced players of that tier so that they can ensure it is accurate in their view, and any debate that needs to happen before a tier is created can happen.

With regard to GSC NU in particular, I think it is borderline whether it is too late to make such a drastic change, or if simply making changes based on the thoughts of the community is more appropriate. For GSC PU, I am open to your suggestions as to how you want to do it. Barely anyone plays it so it is not too late if you want to redo it based on a more accurate VR (or just keep what you have decided on to date). For RSE PU, I have no interest in the tier, nor do I know its history, so I will leave that for someone else to decide.
 

Isa

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#5
it's been some time since i played gsc nu but:

Isa - Today at 11:00
how much it has been played
and to my knowledge
that comes down to
one NU tour on smogon
one NU/UU/Ubers tour and maybe one pure NU tour on mount silver in 2012-2013
and one rotational ladder
lotuspirate - Today at 11:00
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-nu.3570888/
this is the thread
some people have played it a bit
Isa - Today at 11:02
right
it's two years ago though
so i dont think
most of these players feel any current commitment to the tier
i think you're the player with the strongest relationship to the current version
of gsc nu
im open to more changes
than the ones you proposed
i.e.
bump up mr mime
and haunter too if it's truly A- level
these are my thoughts pretty much. gsc nu shouldnt be considered to be in such a stable phaze that we should disqualify ourselves from making things rise. if mr. mime and haunter are truly A- level threats in GSC UU (and pikachu is B) then they should be tiered as such and leave the gsc nu pool. undoubtedly, mr. mime and pikachu are cornerpieces of the current nu metagame, but this metagame is still functionally very new and underexplored, so we should allow ourselves to make changes that make sense.
im in favour of an active exploration process that aims to tier all the relevant mons correctly if theyre deemed to not be UU level worthy. that being said i think poliwrath without mr mime around could easily destroy the competition, or even with mr mime around (twave support is a thing). ninetales should be fine, golduck should be fine, raichu should be fine, hitmonlee should probably be fine. omastar might be problematic but idk.


edit: regarding rby: retier everything
 
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Bughouse

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#6
I don't think it's too late to retier GSC lower tiers by any means. GSC UU and NU are both very much in their early stages as actually played metas by people trying to balance them. If Pokemon currently legal in NU are used and good in UU, then they should not be in NU.

The goal of Smogon tiers should be that an OU game "looks" different from a UU game, which "looks" different from an NU game. While you obviously /can/ use Pokemon in the higher tiers, it should only be at a usage rate of <~3% (or if I'm being generous and assuming ladder is bad and tour players are good - maybe as much as 5-8% in top level competition).

From UUPL we can pretty conclusively say that Mr Mime gets used in UU substantially more than that. It was used in 7 of 52 possible teams, for a usage % of 13.5% and it went 5-2.

Haunter should also be UU, and by extension not available in NU. I think you've sold Haunter a bit short. It's not great... but a large part of the reason it it UU viable is that it is literally the only Ghost available in the tier (aside from the strictly outclassed Gastly). This is relevant in a metagame where 1) Spikes and Rapid Spin are the only form of entry hazards/control, and 2) Explosion is pretty much the only guaranteed way to try to nuke something with heavy offense. And as you've mentioned, too, Granbull is good. Haunter was used even one more time than Mr Mime, although it had a worse record.

IMO, it's pretty clear Mr Mime and Haunter should be UU based on GSC UU's introduction into UUPL. They have UU level usage, period.

The trickier case is Pikachu, which is clearly viable in GSC UU but is very inflexible. It was only used one time in UUPL (and it won). It just offers no defensive synergy so you have to want to bring a very offensive team, sorta like Scizor or Smeargle in OU. But one use just isn't enough to say that it should move up for sure, given that it's not also breaking GSC NU too horribly.



I think the best course of action is the following:
1) Move Mr. Mime and Haunter up to GSC UU
2) Drop all the GSC UU mons that don't actually seem to be viable in GSC UU into GSC NU
3) Re-evalute GSC NU
4) See if Pikachu, any of these new drops, or something else still needs to go - if so put into NUBL
 
#7
It's pretty clear that we're never going to have enough of a significant sample size in these tiers for those percentages to matter. However, usage should correlate with viability, and viability is probably a superior method of determining a cut off in these cases anyway, so using the viability rankings makes sense.

I'd like to hear more opinions from people who have played GSC NU, particularly whether they agree that it has not been played enough to warrant an attempt at maintaining the current metagame.

jira choolio FriendOfMrGolem120 Maya Chansey HSA Teddeh Fireburn Heysup badabing Megazard AM yohoE

Also notifying M Dragon, Lavos and Jorgen even though I can't remember if they have played the tier.

If nobody else cares or they would prefer that we redo the tier, then I think the next step will be to try to encourage more UU play so that more people can weigh in on the state of the UU Viability Rankings, and then perhaps recreate NU as a tier from C rank and below, or something similar.
 

Sage

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#8
Hiya, gonna quickly comment on a couple things because I've played a fair share of GSC UU lately.

I 100% think Haunter deserves the A- ranking or drop to at most B+, merely for being a viable Ghost in a meta where Granbull is very scary (and Chansey / Wigglytuff to a lesser extent), it can anti lead Qwilfish well, it has Explosion, and good coverage in Thunderbolt and Psychic.

Pikachu is mostly a theoretical thing that didn't really get much practical usage. It's done well for me in test games (Sub Sing TBolt Surf), but it it can struggle to beat teams with Chansey or Hypno and even Ampharos, while forcing you to build aggressive offense to support it. I don't think it would be something that has to rise like Haunter and Mr Mime do, many tiers (even in old gens) have had Pokemon from lower tiers be viable (Mienshao in BW is one I remember, being A rank despite ending up in UU.)

I haven't played NU yet but I've enjoyed my time in GSC and would support the idea of a tournament used to test the new tiering changes.

As for all the pokemon disussed above, none of them will make waves in UU for the time being except maybe Omastar as an interesting normal resist, which coincidentally works out to being the most potentially broken in NU :blobcheer:

If anyone who plays GSC NU wants to find me on Showdown, I'd love to get a chance to play this tier so I actually know how the potential drops would affect the meta. Cheers to Earthworm, I'm glad GSC lower tiers are starting to gain a little relevance.
 

Akir

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#9
I am happy for Akir's suggestion to happen for new tiers, but I think it would not be ideal for tiers with existing metagames and players to have to start from scratch unless there is something clearly wrong with the existing tier, and the majority of the player base agrees with it.
Yeah definitely, no need to upend perfectly fine tiers for the sake of others. That's up to them, but I do feel like having a solid line to draw will be the best course of action moving forward for these lower tiers. I can really only speak for PU so I won't touch the others, but I still think that this is definitely something to consider moving forward. After all, having a solid and consistent tier list that is easy to cite should be the basis of every tier. GSC in particular has been getting a lot of love recently, and OU even has a new VR, so at the very least I'd take this as an opportunity to update and fine-tune VRs and resources.
 
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Jorgen

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#10
Yeah GSC NU is a bizarre tier where we just decided one day to vote on pokes & see what got banned. Because like 5 folks quickly voted on every UU poke, though, we ended up with some weird things like mr. mime being legal (and almost magmar too but m dragon iirc had a bit of a hard-on for its performance on his uu teams so we took his word for it & left it out).

All of this is to say that, yeah, mr mime was a huge mistake and if y’all wanted that guy banned (or at least suspected in particular) I’d support it. It’s sort of like kingdra in gsc uu circa 2011 or so (albeit not quite as egregious in practice). One guy with clout (borat) said it should be so on the po forums (after explicitly being asked to come up with a “new” uu tier list on the spot iirc), nobody with enough sway existed who knew uu well enough to poke at his op to help iterate & improve on it, and so it was made ladder- and tourney-legal and it turned out to be an obvious mis-tiering in retrospect (and kingdra was eventually banned after mt silver had a uu tourney and concluded after a bunch of high-level matches that, yeah, kingdra was the pits).

As for the “opening of the floodgates” Earthworm has mused over in the op, it’s certainly a less straightforward set of changes and kind of tests people’s appetite to mess around with a volatile metagame vs. just getting down to playing the game. The latter is my preference so the fewer changes the better, even if the initial logic in gsc nu’s conception was a lil wonky.
 
#11
Noticed I got tagged here skimming through the forums but my alerts are off for everything except VMs so wasn't aware. When I played GSC NU nothing I felt was too volatile and I thought most stuff was manageable, Mime and Pikachu included. This is the first time I'm reading about people playing it again though in a loooong time give or take at least a year and I wasn't aware people still play it. The suggested drops seem fine, I share the same sentiments that Bughouse has which seems more practical anyways. I don't play mons anymore though so don't expect anything more from me other than this opinion.
 
#12
I haven't played many NU games so far and was not around when the tier was established. My whole experience with it consists of some ladder/roomtour games during May when it was playable as Spotlight ladder. Therefore I will leave it to others to decide whether the tier might get changed in general.
I haven't theorized the proposed changes myself but I would trust Earthworms assessments as his viabilty ranking and descriptions of the various pokemon in the tier from this post were the main sources I used when building my own teams and they were very helpful and his explanations in the OP seem logical.
I liked Haunter so far in UU. It seems fine in both metagames to me.
 
#13
I support banning Mr. Mime from NU. Its SpAtk and Speed combined make it very difficult to check, and that's before considering its immense movepool. It has a great STAB move in Psychic which is only resisted by its own type, meaning it doesn't need to run coverage attacks like in UU. Therefore it can take advantage of many different moves and combos like dry pass, BP + Barrier/Meditate, Encore, Swagger, Light Screen, or in my opinion the most devastating RestTalk + T-Wave, which renders it unkillable from the special side and allows it to spread status freely while deterring Dugtrio and other Ground-types on the 1/3 chance of a Psychic roll from sleep. The best counter to Mr. Mime is Mr. Mime, enough said.

Pikachu is the hardest Pokemon in this list to appropriately tier. It's very frail and can't take two hits from anything, but then again, nothing safely switches into it. The one saving grace is that Dugtrio will always live a non-crit Surf from full HP, but this still forces you to use Dugtrio on every team, which is not necessarily a condemnation of Pikachu, but definitely a contributing factor. The fact that it speed ties with Mr. Mime is a good reason to get rid of both. Look down the tier list, almost every single Pokemon is 2HKOd, the few that aren't such as Sunflora are comfortably 3HKOd and can't do anything in return. Sure, Fearow or Dugtrio can come in and get a revenge kill, but that just creates an extremely fast-paced meta where every turn is a 50/50 or attempt to trade KOs, which removes all the nuance and reasons to play NU in the first place. Pikachu is Zapdos without wings...it should be banned from the tier.

This may go without saying, but Raichu should stay UU. Bulk is usually more valuable than power in GSC, and Raichu trades power for bulk plus enough Speed to tie Fearow.

With the removal of Mr. Mime from the tier, Haunter suddenly doesn't look so great. While it has a decent movepool, it doesn't hit very hard, and almost everything runs RestTalk, so Hypnosis becomes far less valuable. A fast Explosion/Destiny Bond is always nice, but the ubiquitous Dugtrio outpaces it, not to mention Fearow and even Rapidash. I don't think Haunter has the power, bulk, or coverage to pose a significant threat to the stability of NU. Seems perfectly fine where it is.

As Earthworm said, Omastar is basically a way stronger Octillery, and Octillery is top tier in NU, so there's no way Omastar should drop.

Hitmonlee isn't broken by its stats alone, even though Fighting is a really good type in NU, but I think access to Meditate makes it way too strong. At +1 it can comfortably 2HKO the entire tier, and its only drawback is being reliant on Hi Jump Kick for STAB. I would leave it in UU even though it's extremely bad there.

In a metagame with Mr. Mime and Pikachu, the threat of Poliwrath seems pretty low, but if my suggestions are taken and the aforementioned two are banned, then I could see the Belly Drum + Lovely Kiss set being rather scary. Will hold the rest of my opinions on Poliwrath for future review.

Golduck is perfectly fine in NU, it's not doing anything better than Octillery. Hypnosis is bad when every team has at minimum 3 RestTalkers. This Pokemon could be really dangerous if you built a team around removing Octillery, because then nothing walls Water/Ice/Fighting coverage, but this is difficult to do.

Ninetales should be NU. It has the unfortunate side effect of removing any reason to use Rapidash, but it is a far more interesting Pokemon in exchange, and can bring some new strategies to the table with its access to a fast Confuse Ray (Swagger?) and great bulk.

Summary:
Mr. Mime --> UU
Pikachu --> UU
Raichu = UU
Haunter = NU
Omastar = UU
Hitmonlee = UU
Poliwrath --> NU (re-assess after Mime/Pika bans)
Golduck --> NU
Ninetales --> NU
 
#14
hey, i took over the nu old gens thread & as a result the gen2nu vr, so i felt i should comment here. i think i agree with the mindset that it isnt too late to change up the tierlist as there isnt a huge playerbase atm and making a big change would only be for the better if it gets more people to play a more balanced tier list that can actually be justified more than the current one.

now how we go about creating that tierlist is another question. i dont think saying things like "banning x from nu" or "dropping for uu" is a good way to around this bc we are basically just remaking gsc nu with regards to the uu viability ranking, creating a new tier that we should treat like one. based on the current gsc uu vr im honestly not sure where we can draw the line. since there is no separation for the b ranks and the subranks arent ranked on mons it becomes hard to judge where we can separate this out. heres the current #s based on ranks: s - 2 / a - 16 / b - 10 / c - 16 (+ apparently 6 mons that are not ranked raichu, ninetales, golduck, poliwrath, hitmonlee and omastar). i think it would be best if there got a bit more discussion between Sage and a few others (Lavos Earthworm?) to maybe separate b into a b+ / b / b- or even b+ / b in order to find a good place for us to separate the tiers, maybe even just ranking mons among the subranks is the way to go. currently gsc ou has 23 solely ou mons and uubl has 26 mons, so i think a number somewhere around there would probably be optimal?

anyway once we do that i can start reupdating the gsc nu resources and trying to get a bit of a playerbase going on w/ the roa & nu communities to get the vr started + tours going in order to make the tierlist for pu sometime after that. can even start moving things to nubl if we have anything that may be a bit much.

anyway let me know what you guys think about this proposal or if you have any other questions, just reply here and ill do my best to respond as quickly as possible.
 
#15
I really don't think this is a good idea. Separating UU and NU based on an extremely subjective VR that was created by two people is a shaky premise. Additionally if you want us to create subranks it's going to be a lot of me/Sage/Earthworm throwing haphazard +/- at Pokemon based on how we "feel" about them on a given day. It's hard enough to differentiate between power levels in the UU VR as it stands, due in part to how little this tier actually gets played. Not to mention there are Pokemon like Omastar that throw a wrench in this plan altogether, which are barely viable in UU but would absolutely dominate NU, and thus should probably stay where they are. I don't see what's wrong with the way we've been doing things so far, I am completely fine with going down the list of all currently UU/NU Pokemon and deciding what should drop/rise, we could have a couple other people who know their shit and are invested in the creation of this tier do the same thing and compare rankings/argue until we reach a conclusion. It may seem archaic against whatever methods current LT tiering processes are used nowadays, but this is a virtually untouched metagame that very few people understand or care about, and I'd like to treat it with some caution.

That said, I'll offer my subranks for the UU VR later today. If everyone else thinks this is the best way to do things. I'm not going to put up a fight.

Question: what are UUBL, NUBL, etc.? I thought it went Ubers > OU > BL > UU > NU...
 
#16
I'm going to host a GSC UU tournament (signups in about 48hrs, please join and post replays everyone!!!), then probably try to debate a bit in the UU thread. One major issue is though, I feel like it's unlikely that even after playing in the tournament and brainstorming a lot about the tier, that I will be in a position to accurately assess what should be split between separated B and C ranks, from where we will have to decide a cutoff point. Especially since the top tier Pokemon in GSC UU are so good that they are close to must-use status, in my (current) opinion. Lavos also pointed this out in his post above.

So after the tournament, I will see what insights I can provide based on my own experiences and watching (hopefully everyone else's) replays (and I hope everyone else does this also). From there, if I think that we are in a position to accurately split up the lower ranks of UU viability, then I can support doing this in the arguably slightly less arbitrary way that some people are supporting in this thread. Regardless, I am happy to take my time with this project and just keep the status quo until that time comes. Hopefully the old gen NU/PU communities don't mind either.
 
#17
Yeah GSC NU is a bizarre tier where we just decided one day to vote on pokes & see what got banned. Because like 5 folks quickly voted on every UU poke, though, we ended up with some weird things like mr. mime being legal (and almost magmar too but m dragon iirc had a bit of a hard-on for its performance on his uu teams so we took his word for it & left it out).

All of this is to say that, yeah, mr mime was a huge mistake and if y’all wanted that guy banned (or at least suspected in particular) I’d support it. It’s sort of like kingdra in gsc uu circa 2011 or so (albeit not quite as egregious in practice). One guy with clout (borat) said it should be so on the po forums (after explicitly being asked to come up with a “new” uu tier list on the spot iirc), nobody with enough sway existed who knew uu well enough to poke at his op to help iterate & improve on it, and so it was made ladder- and tourney-legal and it turned out to be an obvious mis-tiering in retrospect (and kingdra was eventually banned after mt silver had a uu tourney and concluded after a bunch of high-level matches that, yeah, kingdra was the pits).

As for the “opening of the floodgates” Earthworm has mused over in the op, it’s certainly a less straightforward set of changes and kind of tests people’s appetite to mess around with a volatile metagame vs. just getting down to playing the game. The latter is my preference so the fewer changes the better, even if the initial logic in gsc nu’s conception was a lil wonky.
Jorgen i think the three pokemon that were in discussion *7 years ago* were kingdra, slowbro, and nidoqueen. i backpedaled on kingdra (and maybe slowbro as well) fairly quickly.
 

Bughouse

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#18
So... GSC UU has some good stats to go off of, thanks to EW (naturally).

I realised today that I had enough replays to generate quite detailed stats from the GSC UU Tournament, so here they are:

GSC UU Tournament

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |  113 |  83.09% |  46.90% |
| 2    | Qwilfish           |   74 |  54.41% |  55.41% |
| 3    | Granbull           |   59 |  43.38% |  42.37% |
| 4    | Scyther            |   58 |  42.65% |  46.55% |
| 5    | Slowbro            |   49 |  36.03% |  51.02% |
| 6    | Ampharos           |   32 |  23.53% |  56.25% |
| 7    | Magneton           |   25 |  18.38% |  32.00% |
| 8    | Dodrio             |   24 |  17.65% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Hypno              |   23 |  16.91% |  43.48% |
| 10   | Mr. Mime           |   20 |  14.71% |  55.00% |
| 10   | Quagsire           |   20 |  14.71% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Electabuzz         |   20 |  14.71% |  40.00% |
| 13   | Bellossom          |   19 |  13.97% |  63.16% |
| 14   | Kadabra            |   17 |  12.50% |  52.94% |
| 14   | Politoed           |   17 |  12.50% |  47.06% |
| 14   | Kabutops           |   17 |  12.50% |  29.41% |
| 17   | Jumpluff           |   16 |  11.76% |  56.25% |
| 18   | Piloswine          |   15 |  11.03% |  40.00% |
| 19   | Electrode          |   14 |  10.29% |  64.29% |
| 19   | Girafarig          |   14 |  10.29% |  64.29% |
| 19   | Slowking           |   14 |  10.29% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Haunter            |   14 |  10.29% |  42.86% |
| 23   | Crobat             |   11 |   8.09% |  27.27% |
| 24   | Chansey            |   10 |   7.35% |  40.00% |
| 25   | Omastar            |    9 |   6.62% |  88.89% |
| 26   | Victreebel         |    8 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 26   | Arcanine           |    8 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Gligar             |    7 |   5.15% |  42.86% |
| 28   | Pinsir             |    7 |   5.15% |  14.29% |
| 30   | Pikachu            |    6 |   4.41% |  66.67% |
| 30   | Gyarados           |    6 |   4.41% |  16.67% |
| 32   | Poliwrath          |    4 |   2.94% |  25.00% |
| 33   | Vileplume          |    3 |   2.21% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Blastoise          |    3 |   2.21% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Shuckle            |    3 |   2.21% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Sudowoodo          |    3 |   2.21% |  33.33% |
| 33   | Lanturn            |    3 |   2.21% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Sandslash          |    2 |   1.47% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Flareon            |    1 |   0.74% | 100.00% |
| 39   | Feraligatr         |    1 |   0.74% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Pineco             |    1 |   0.74% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Xatu               |    1 |   0.74% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Houndour           |    1 |   0.74% |   0.00% |
Also, for comparison's sake here are the stats from UUPL:

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Nidoqueen          |   42 |  80.77% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Qwilfish           |   27 |  51.92% |  40.74% |
| 3    | Granbull           |   18 |  34.62% |  55.56% |
| 4    | Slowbro            |   16 |  30.77% |  68.75% |
| 5    | Scyther            |   15 |  28.85% |  53.33% |
| 6    | Magneton           |   13 |  25.00% |  46.15% |
| 7    | Dodrio             |   12 |  23.08% |  25.00% |
| 8    | Hypno              |   11 |  21.15% |  36.36% |
| 8    | Electabuzz         |   11 |  21.15% |  27.27% |
| 10   | Ampharos           |   10 |  19.23% |  70.00% |
| 10   | Piloswine          |   10 |  19.23% |  40.00% |
| 12   | Blastoise          |    9 |  17.31% |  44.44% |
| 13   | Haunter            |    8 |  15.38% |  37.50% |
| 14   | Mr. Mime           |    7 |  13.46% |  71.43% |
| 14   | Bellossom          |    7 |  13.46% |  57.14% |
| 14   | Gyarados           |    7 |  13.46% |  57.14% |
| 14   | Pinsir             |    7 |  13.46% |  42.86% |
| 18   | Quagsire           |    6 |  11.54% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Girafarig          |    6 |  11.54% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Slowking           |    6 |  11.54% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Sandslash          |    5 |   9.62% |  80.00% |
| 21   | Kabutops           |    5 |   9.62% |  80.00% |
| 21   | Kadabra            |    5 |   9.62% |  60.00% |
| 21   | Chansey            |    5 |   9.62% |  60.00% |
| 25   | Gligar             |    4 |   7.69% |  75.00% |
| 26   | Electrode          |    3 |   5.77% |  33.33% |
| 26   | Politoed           |    3 |   5.77% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Feraligatr         |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Wigglytuff         |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Jumpluff           |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Lanturn            |    2 |   3.85% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Omastar            |    2 |   3.85% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Mantine            |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Pikachu            |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Lickitung          |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Parasect           |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Crobat             |    1 |   1.92% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Vileplume          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Ariados            |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Flareon            |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Shuckle            |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Dragonair          |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Magmar             |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Graveler           |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Primeape           |    1 |   1.92% |   0.00% |
So, it seems clear that, after over a hundred more games, Mr Mime and Haunter merit being in UU. Pikachu is less clear cut than the first two, but it has seen use and done fine in UU and should probably rise as well. Shuckle also would rise based on EW's viability rankings, and it has seen a little bit of UU use, since it's a hard stop to Nidoqueen (though this one hardly impacts NU). Lickitung is even more niche than Shuckle, but it could rise as well. Aside from Shuckle, the other rises make a huge impact, as all 4 are in the top 10 or so in current GSC NU.

On the other hand, a few "UU" Pokemon maybe should drop into NU, since they have next to no use in UU. Here are some possibilities (roughly from least useful in UU to more borderline drops) - Hitmonlee, Golduck, Primeape, Ninetales, Raichu, Weezing, and Flareon. The line I drew was C+ and above = UU, below = NU. Some may disagree about Raichu, Flareon, and Weezing, which are all in C rather than C+ and it's all rather subjective down there anyway.

How do people want to go about changing the NU tier list? We should certainly rise Haunter and Mr. Mime. I'd also like to rise Pikachu, Shuckle, and Lickitung. We should certainly drop Hitmonlee, Golduck, Primeape, and Ninetales.

The other potential drops are a bit more speculative, and I'd rather consider their potential drops once we have a better idea what new-NU would look like since this would be a very big shakeup, even just from the rises alone! The metagame may become Fighting-mon central with Primeape and Hitmonlee and no more Haunter or Mr Mime around to annoy them. Maybe NU has enough to keep them in check though, including these physically bulky/faster Pokemon: Fearow, Tangela, Rapidash, Ninetales, Pidgeot, Kingler, and Arbok. But maybe also dropping some edge cases like Weezing or Raichu could help. I'd want to test new NU with these 5 rises and 4 drops.
 
#19
So... GSC UU has some good stats to go off of, thanks to EW (naturally).


So, it seems clear that, after over a hundred more games, Mr Mime and Haunter merit being in UU. Pikachu is less clear cut than the first two, but it has seen use and done fine in UU and should probably rise as well. Shuckle also would rise based on EW's viability rankings, and it has seen a little bit of UU use, since it's a hard stop to Nidoqueen (though this one hardly impacts NU). Lickitung is even more niche than Shuckle, but it could rise as well. Aside from Shuckle, the other rises make a huge impact, as all 4 are in the top 10 or so in current GSC NU.
I don't think it was quite a hundred games (it was 68), but I agree with most of what you say here. Lickitung (and possibly Wigglytuff) I am not sure about at this stage, I might have overrated it at C+. There is almost no reason to use it over Granbull or Chansey, since I don't think Belly Drum is viable in UU.

On the other hand, a few "UU" Pokemon maybe should drop into NU, since they have next to no use in UU. Here are some possibilities (roughly from least useful in UU to more borderline drops) - Hitmonlee, Golduck, Primeape, Ninetales, Raichu, Weezing, and Flareon. The line I drew was C+ and above = UU, below = NU. Some may disagree about Raichu, Flareon, and Weezing, which are all in C rather than C+ and it's all rather subjective down there anyway.
Of those you listed, I think only Weezing could possibly rise to C+. I'm currently experimenting with it and it's not that bad, as long as they don't have a Haunter. It typically just trades for something, which is not so bad.

I will most likely also suggest Graveler and Poliwhirl rise to C+ or B- having now tested them. I think I am also going to suggest dropping Poliwrath into C, because its niche of having slightly higher Defence than Politoed is almost irrelevant.

How do people want to go about changing the NU tier list? We should certainly rise Haunter and Mr. Mime. I'd also like to rise Pikachu, Shuckle, and Lickitung. We should certainly drop Hitmonlee, Golduck, Primeape, and Ninetales.
I think we should just completely redefine the tier based on the updated UU VR once it settles a bit, as others have suggested. I am hoping to wait for more people to leave opinions on the UU VR though, and perhaps until after Diophantine's tournament which will also feature GSC UU.

The other potential drops are a bit more speculative, and I'd rather consider their potential drops once we have a better idea what new-NU would look like since this would be a very big shakeup, even just from the rises alone! The metagame may become Fighting-mon central with Primeape and Hitmonlee and no more Haunter or Mr Mime around to annoy them. Maybe NU has enough to keep them in check though, including these physically bulky/faster Pokemon: Fearow, Tangela, Rapidash, Ninetales, Pidgeot, Kingler, and Arbok. But maybe also dropping some edge cases like Weezing or Raichu could help. I'd want to test new NU with these 5 rises and 4 drops.
I also think that the fighting types will be quite strong in this meta at a glance, but poison types will probably handle them decently well, and Xatu is also going to be around still. There will also still be Spikers. So I think the meta could turn out decently balanced and interesting.
 
#20
hey going to make a post here since ill have the gsc nu threads probably. i think the tiers settling down, and with the new vr that was put together its a good time to decide on a cutoff for where gsc uu ends and gsc nu starts. now this list will be static from the point we decide on, as i dont think it makes a lot of sense to change the tier after this point, even if some mon does pick up a lot of use in gsc uu tournaments we can consider it like we do other past gens from here on out where the tier is just locked.

i talked to earthworm a bit and i think i am in favor of using c+ and lower as the cutoff for nu. this would mean magmar down from this list here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-uu-viability-ranking-thread.3636234/. this leaves us with 34 mons in gsc uu, which is quite a lot but that is the option that makes the most logical sense if you look at where other usage based tiers technically have their "cutoffs" on the vr. Earthworm is free to go into this more if he wants to touch on this past here.

curious to see what you guys have to say, and i think earthworm is planning something after this, and once its all decided we can start working on the new nu n_n
 
#21
I have also been talking with various people in the GSC community about the cutoff and agree that C+ will make a better cutoff than C or B-. It seems a lot cleaner than B-, and there is precedent in using the start of C+ as the cutoff, but there is also precedent for using C. What has ended up drawing me towards using C+ is that there are more interesting Pokemon in C+ like Magmar, Shuckle, Weezing, Victreebel etc, as well as a fear that Poliwrath might be too dominant otherwise. It seems as though in either case a boosting Pokemon with a Sleep move will be a key presence.

I want to stress that if anyone thinks the current UU VR is off, particularly in terms of the Pokemon in C+, please post your opinion in the VR thread as soon as possible so it can be taken into consideration. Once we have made the cutoff final, we are not going to do it again, meaning the only further changes will come from potential bans (which I don't forsee as likely to happen).

I envisage waiting at least until the first weekend of October before finalising the cutoff, to give people time to post any objections to the cutoff or regarding the rank of any Pokemon.

I will post a list of bans and differences between the old NU so that people are able to visualise the differences, as well as post the banlist of old NU for preservation, when I'm at a computer.
 
#22
As I mentioned in the above post, below is the old NU ban list, as well as the change lists for the tier list if we use the C+ cutoff or the C cutoff, assuming that there are no further changes to the VR.

Old NU Ban List
Code:
Celebi
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Mew
Mewtwo
Blissey
Cloyster
Exeggutor
Forretress
Gengar
Heracross
Jolteon
Machamp
Marowak
Miltank
Misdreavus
Nidoking
Porygon2
Raikou
Rhydon
Skarmory
Snorlax
Starmie
Steelix
Suicune
Tyranitar
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Zapdos
Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Articuno
Charizard
Clefable
Donphan
Dragonite
Entei
Espeon
Golem
Houndoom
Jynx
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Lapras
Meganium
Moltres
Muk
Scizor
Smeargle
Tauros
Tentacruel
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Venusaur
Ampharos
Arcanine
Bellossom
Blastoise
Chansey
Crobat
Dodrio
Electabuzz
Electrode
Feraligatr
Flareon
Girafarig
Gligar
Golduck
Granbull
Gyarados
Hitmonlee
Hypno
Jumpluff
Kabutops
Kadabra
Lanturn
Magmar
Magneton
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Omastar
Piloswine
Pinsir
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Sandslash
Scyther
Slowbro
Slowking
Victreebel
Vileplume
Weezing
Wigglytuff
If C+ is used as cutoff for new NU
Now banned


Now unbanned




If C is used as cutoff for new NU
Now banned


Now unbanned
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
#23
So i know that I'm not a part of those conversations, but i still wanted to voice an opinion. Specifically, i think that the cutoff should be C. I think it would be much simpler to go with the least amount of big changes and then ban poliwrath.

I have never bought into the philosophy of "broke mon evens out broke mon" because from my experience this only leads to having 2 broke mons and a more centralized meta. My main concern with going with C+ is that a lot of the newer mons seem to be in a completely different league than the rest of the mons in the tier. C+ would add more mons, but my concern is that it would also make the tier more centralized towards the drops as well.

Simply put, i would rather take the conservative route and not rock the boat too much for fears of making a more unstable and centralized metagame than what we originally had
 
#24
So i know that I'm not a part of those conversations, but i still wanted to voice an opinion. Specifically, i think that the cutoff should be C. I think it would be much simpler to go with the least amount of big changes and then ban poliwrath.

I have never bought into the philosophy of "broke mon evens out broke mon" because from my experience this only leads to having 2 broke mons and a more centralized meta. My main concern with going with C+ is that a lot of the newer mons seem to be in a completely different league than the rest of the mons in the tier. C+ would add more mons, but my concern is that it would also make the tier more centralized towards the drops as well.

Simply put, i would rather take the conservative route and not rock the boat too much for fears of making a more unstable and centralized metagame than what we originally had
I don't think we can reasonably assume either of these metagames will be centralised, unstable, decentralised, or stable. If typical rby/gsc metagame trends hold, we will probably be looking at a centralised metagame. Also, I think no matter what we do, we will be experiencing a massively different and virtually completely new and unexplored meta, so considering that, I favour allowing more of the lesser used, interesting UU Pokemon whose flaws are mostly meta/typing based rather than BST/movepool based.

The only potentially destabilising threat that is apparent to me with a C+ cutoff is Victreebel, which I have been testing more in UU over the past couple of days, and I think it is probably a B- threat rather than a C+ one. If that rank changes, I think we will probably be looking at a pretty well balanced and varied NU metagame, but who knows at this stage.

For what it's worth, I'm theoretically in the same camp as you with regard to wanting to avoid metagames defined by a couple of broken Pokemon (even though OU and UU are arguably just that).
 
#25
After almost 3 months of discussion and a lot of UU games, the new GSC NU tier list has finally been decided. The following Pokemon are banned from the new NU tier:
Code:
--Uber--
Celebi
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Mew
Mewtwo
--OU--
Blissey
Cloyster
Exeggutor
Forretress
Gengar
Heracross
Jolteon
Machamp
Marowak
Miltank
Misdreavus
Nidoking
Porygon2
Raikou
Rhydon
Skarmory
Snorlax
Starmie
Steelix
Suicune
Tyranitar
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Zapdos
--UUBL--
Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Articuno
Charizard
Clefable
Donphan
Dragonite
Entei
Espeon
Golem
Houndoom
Jynx
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Lapras
Meganium
Moltres
Muk
Scizor
Smeargle
Tauros
Tentacruel
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Venusaur
--UU--
Ampharos
Arcanine
Bellossom
Blastoise
Chansey
Crobat
Dodrio
Electabuzz
Electrode
Girafarig
Gligar
Granbull
Gyarados
Haunter
Hypno
Jumpluff
Kabutops
Kadabra
Lanturn
Magneton
Mr. Mime
Nidoqueen
Omastar
Pikachu
Piloswine
Pinsir
Politoed
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Sandslash
Scyther
Slowbro
Slowking
Victreebel
Vileplume
Comparing with the previous GSC NU tier, that means the following changes have occurred:
Now banned:


Now unbanned:


The Pokemon that stand out as the biggest threats and strongest Pokemon in general in this new tier are probably Raichu, Feraligatr, and Poliwrath. Raichu has a bunch of moveset illegalities though, notably:
Code:
Encore + Sing
Present + Sing
Reversal + Sing
Encore + Surf
Present + Surf
Reversal + Surf
Charm + Surf
Encore + Submission
Encore + Seismic Toss
Encore + Reflect
Encore + Substitute
Present + Seismic Toss
Present + Reflect
Present + Substitute
Reversal + Substitute
Charm + Submission
Charm + Seismic Toss
Charm + Reflect
Charm + Substitute
I am also expecting quite a few of the old GSC NU mainstays like Octillery, Shuckle, Tangela, Graveler, Fearow, Pidgeot, Hitmontop, Lickitung, Sudowoodo, Pineco etc to be viable in this tier. It will be interesting to see what kinds of strategies develop.

There will be a GSC NU room tour (hopefully using the new tier list) in the RoA room tonight hosted by Ransei as part of the RoA Room Tour Nights series, hopefully at least a few people turn up for that.

Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread and also to everyone who helped to shape the GSC UU VR, which helped to ensure that the new GSC NU tier was created through a proper process.

New GSC NU Pokemon List by BST
 
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