NFE NFE Metagame Discussion

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Approved by The Immortal

NFE

NFE, or Not Fully Evolved is a metagame around the premise of only allowing pokemon that can still evolve. Unlike LC, this includes any Pokemon that can use Eviolite, rather than just Stage 1 Evolutions.

Basic Strategy: NFE is a very diverse metagame. Being a metagame with no fully evolved Pokémon, Eviolite is a godsend to the tier. With its redistribution since Pokemon Home's release, Knock Off continues to be staple move because of how centralizing and common Eviolite is. Bulky Offense is the most consistent style of play in NFE with Pokemon such as Tangela, Hattrem and Piloswine all being at the forefront of the metagame. However, most playstyles, with the exception of Stall, are viable. Hyper Offense in NFE has to reckon with Corsola-Galar cores and Mareanie cores, but has some strong wall breakers to do so in Pikachu and Thwackey. Other offensive styles of play include Sticky Webs offense, with Charjabug being the premier web setter, SpikeStack offense, with the best Spikers being Ferroseed and Mareanie, and VoltTurn teams revolving around Pokemon such as Electabuzz and Raboot. All these playstyles exploit the limited number of viable Defog and Rapid Spin users in the tier. More balanced teams, include tanks such as Machoke, Piloswine and Gurdurr, which are capable of taking hits whilst also returning significant damage to the frailer offensive threats. The re-addition of some old faces such as Electabuzz and Gabite has also shaken up the metagame. All in all, NFE is a wide-ranging metagame whose low power creep offers an enjoyable experience for both beginners and competitive players alike.

The metagame will only change and evolve from here! Please use this thread to discuss meta trends and new features that impact the Gen 8 NFE meta!

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To take a look at our resources click here!

Rules: NFE allows any pokemon that is both unbanned from the tier, and can hold eviolite.
Clauses: Gen 8 OU Clauses
Banlist:

Banlist

Any fully evolved Pokemon
Chansey
Doublade
Haunter
Golbat
Kadabra
Magmar
Magneton
Pawniard
Pikachu
Porygon2
Rhydon
Scyther
Sneasel
Type: Null
Vulpix

SS NFE Council:
Ho3nConfirm3d (leader)
lepton
The Strap
beauts

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Sample Teams

CB Piloswine + Bulky Electabuzz by xavgb


Ferroseed Spikes by xavgb


Lairon Balance by S1nn0hC0nfirm3d


Rabootey + Wincon Clef by S1nn0hC0nfirm3d


Koffing + Piloswine by Rav3


CB Raboot by 85percent

 

[SBPC]

first lol
Gen 8 has by far been a very interesting generation so far, with dynamax overpowering shit left and right, I'd like to take a break from the big boys and discuss a handful of mons that are good regardless of their size.

Doublade Set

Fat And Broken (Doublade) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head

By far one of the most discussed mons to date, Doublade possesses an incredible statpool and astounding coverage, with the option to boost its already incredible base 110 attack with Swords Dance, making it an excellent wallbreaker. It doesn't particularly mind it's low speed, due to access to shadow sneak for popping frailer threats and its incredible bulk for others. This is by far the most centralizing of any pokemon currently looked at in the meta, with most of its checks being able to be pushed through after a little chip with very few inbetween.

Gurdurr Sets

Big Gains (Gurdurr) @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch / Poison Jab

Another incredible centralizing threat, Gurdurr, has found itself to be a current terror in the metagame, with its setup allowing it to piledrive down most of the metagame, options like Poison Jab to hit would-be checks like Clefairy and Togetic, and Guts to make burn not an option to help stop it. Like Doublade, this mon stands at the front of the metagame, and hits like a tank.

Mr. Mime-G Sets

The Number 9 (Mr. Mime-Galar) @ Life Orb
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam / Blizzard
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast

Good At Maths (Mr. Mime-Galar) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard / Ice Beam
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast

"Just bring in a physwall lol"
Our new introduction, Galarian Mr. Mime, has something to say to you. This new threat is REALLY good. And by far one of the best Dynamax abusers. Nasty Plot makes into a disgusting setup option, and Choice Specs is an alternative for great immediate power. Although, GMime currently struggles to stay in for long due to the priority of our other threats, it otherwise starts becoming a very terrifying pokemon to be near, with it's dual STABs covering a large part of the metagame, and it's great base 100 speed leaves it able to outspeed threats like Haunter.

G-Linoone (Best Rat) Sets

Rodent (Linoone-Galar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off
- Stomping Tantrum
- Parting Shot

Rat (Linoone-Galar) @ Figy Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot
- Switcheroo

By far the tier's best scarfer, with it sharing a speed tier with g-mime, having access to a decent defensive typing (2 immunities) that has good offensive coverage for the tier, access to an amazing pivoting tool in parting shot, as well as a nifty way to cripple threats with switcheroo to steal eviolite off its opponents.

G-Corsola Sets

Just Won't Stay Dead (Corsola-Galar) @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock

Being the victim of a roaming Toxapex on a shoreline does some things to you, like completely remove your typing and ability, and exchange it out for pure ghost typing, access to strength sap, and giving you an evolution, allowing this once forever lower tier locked mon to be a defensive staple in modern NFE. Galarian Corsola is by far the pinnacle defensive mon in NFE, with incredible stats, access to tools like Will-O-Wisp and Strength Sap, and decent SpAtk allowing it to have a lethal hex on burned opponents, it's a murder victim gone mass killer, checking an incredibly large portion of the centralizing threats currently spammed in the tier.

Anyways, those are just some cool sets for the new and old threats of the metagame, with a few stature points on how they play. Metagame wise, we're still very very early in development, and i see many bans coming in soon, as well as the discovery of much better ways to handle dynamaxing if it isnt outright banned itself. Currently Doublade and Gurdurr run the entire meta, and i honestly wouldn't mind seeing them leave. But some pokemon like Type: Null, Piloswine, Drakloak, and Machoke are sitting in the background, waiting their turn to take complete charge of the metagame with their own toolkits. Looking forward to see how NFE develops.

E: apparently knock off wasnt nerfed lol knock busted again

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Immediate Gen8 NFE Observations:

After playing and watching a ton games this gen, I figured I'd get this thread started with everything worth mentioning imo. Considering the banlist at the time of writing has no NFE mons and copies current OU clauses, this post will have these considerations in mind. I also won't discuss anything that has speculative bans / unavailable content like the starters with their HAs.

Dynamaxing

Dynamaxing makes any sweeper have high powered STABs, extra HP bulk, new coverage in once useless attacks like Rock Smash / Dig / Fly, and of course the secondary effects that the Max Moves provide. A ton of powerhouses benefit from the snowballing potential of these attacks, and games largely center around sweeping with users dynamax while anticipating the opponents.
The Dynamax meta largely favors mons with Fighting and Flying coverage / stabs, as they raise Attack and Speed respectively. There's also a ton of abusers with this coverage, which I'll cover below.
Fire / Water / Psychic / Electric / Grass / Poison coverage is also abusable, but has less users overall.
Ground / Steel coverage has the benefit of raising Sp.Def / Def, which bulkier evio sweepers enjoy a ton, and are huge abusers of this coverage.
Speed boosting moves like Rock Polish / Shift Gear / ect can make up for the lack of Flying coverage on Dyna sweepers, and have been both centralizing and effective.
Choice mons can avoid the lock with Max moves, meaning there can easily be cases where its worth it to pop Dyna on them to enjoy the choice effects and all moveslots.
If a sweeper does get some combination of a power and speed buff, not many walls can stomach or do anything about the following three turns of Max Moves. Even switching around with resistances can be very tough, and the lasting stat/ weather / terrain buffs don't make it easy either. Phazing or activating your own Dynamax for the HP buff sometimes can work.

I'll go into specific threats that make this mechanic so busted later on in this post.

Shadow Tag / Arena Trap

Trapping has always been busted, and continues to be in NFE. Gotorita and Diglett are the premier trappers, but it is Goth that pushes the boundaries so much. As a scarf user, you can guarantee Trick defensive mons to get rid of their evio and lock them into their next move. This is highly abusable, as even if they attack you can then sack Goth and come into a set up sweeper that resists / doesn't mind what they're locked into. In a meta with Dynamax, this is absurdly powerful.
You can also combo this with Charm, Thunder Wave, and then Sub Hone Claws Diglett for double trapping sweeping potential. Totally gimmicky, but can sweep teams if they make one wrong missplay. Helps that Max Sucker can be abused as a strong spamable Dark attack as well.
Theres a ton of potential to trap not only as revenge, but for set up to Dyna sweepers.

Goth tricking Pilo, Dig setting up:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011282172

No Sleep Clause

Without sleep clause, mons like Rose and Gloom are free to Sleep Powder as much as they'd like. The problem with these two in particular is that Sleep Powder is the most accurate sleep inducer out of NFE's viability pool, and most of the mons that are immune to it, Grass types, are then weak to a stab Sludge Bomb. It makes finding a good sleep switch in that isn't a Rose or Gloom limited to mons like Ferro, as even Vital Spirit G-Mime has to be worried about a stab Sludge Bomb / Leaf Storm.
Rose is dangerous for being a good special wall that can threaten spikes/tspikes, while Gloom is dangerous on sun for a very fast sleep powder or even as a Growth mono attacking SB sets.
Overall having a good sleep check should be considered as long as no sleep clause is present, otherwise these two or even niche examples like G-Mime's Hypnosis could be very annoying.

Semi Sun

Drought unbanned means that Vukpix can take the stage with Gloom as the two can fit to be a formidable offensive core. It's probably hard to pull off a full sun team, as not many other Chlorophyll users exists, and Chameleon seems just okay, but as a 2 mon core they can function as an easy, effective way to get a lot of momentum up.
Gloom has a fas Sleep Powder with Growth, and two stabs with phenomenal max move effects: setting up Grassy Terrian and raising Special Attack. Coupled with really good Evio bulk and Dyna health, and Gloom can be almost unstoppable in those turns of Sun / Dyna.

Vulpix is sacked for a free switch in to Gloom for a sweep:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011342564

Dyna Gloom lives a Raboot's Flare Blitz in Sun, wtf:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011338375

Dyna Sweepers:

Rhydon

Rhydon as a Dyna sweeper is incredible, as it can Rock Polish to pretty good speeds and not worry about most faster scarves thanks to its bulk which just improves in use. Max EQ / Stone Edge are powerful stabs that most of the meta cannot resist, with the first raising special def in a stat form and the second also raising special def with Sand Storm. The last coverage move could be SD, but I would recommend Super Power as Max Super Power raises attack, giving Rhydon an option to both deal damage and set up. In a very offensive and turn-sensative meta, I would argue this is very valuable. Rhydon barely has any defensive checks, and most have to guess if they're Super Power or SD in hopes to check it.

Dyna Rhydon breaking past everything in Dyna form, only going down to a Ferro that barely lived post Dyna:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011319717

Quag utterly swept my HO turn 1 as I lacked prep:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011318963

Rufflet

This mon with Hustle also makes a super threatening Dyna user, as you get perfectly accurate stabs that raise Attack and Speed, and even Shadow Claw coverage for breaking past Doublade. The last move can either be Roost or Hone Claws, either way its a monster.

Sets up on Machoke, KO'ing it, shrugging off the scarf Haunter while being at +2 f
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011319853

Spikes HO support makes switching around Ruff's Max moves very punishing:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011423363

Klang

Klang can Shift Gear and then have all the coverage it needs with Gear Grind, Wild Charge, and believe it or not Rock Smash. Max Rock Smash makes it be at a usable bp while raising attack, Max Gear Grind raises Def, and Max Wild makes Electric Terrain so it can be even stronger when spammed.

On a rain team, Klang sweeps late game and beats Dyna Rhydon:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8oubeta-1011287077

Doublade

Doublade makes a very interesting Dyna user as it can enjoy the extra bulk and power for WB, and then use Max Guard to stall out its Dyna turns so it may have Shadow Sneak back against faster threats. Obvi a great mon regardless of Dyna, but it puts it to good use.

Theres a lot more woth mentioning but I'll leave the list at this. This meta is filled to the brim with threats because of Dyna.

 

[RoyalReloaded]

I'm relatively new to NFE, but I believe that Corsola is going to be broken, and might even need to be quickbanned. From what I've seen it has become a staple of a new no fun allowed core in ou, along with ferrothorn and toxapex. I personally think it might just be too strong for NFE, but we'll see what happens I suppose

 

[Thunder~BALLZ]

I have played only a few matches in the SWSH meta so my thoughts will be brief but expect a better post regarding what I think once the meta develops further.

Right from the start I expected Dynamaxing to be broken and I stand by this opinion based on what I've seen. It makes the whole battling system unhealthy and too swingy due to stat boosts / drops along with terrains and weather, and the HP Boost is just outright crazy on some mons. Obviously NFE isn't the place for Dynamax discussion but I thought I'd mention it due to it being relevant to what I want to talk about in a bit.

Currently I am having fun with a lot of the new toys that we have received in this generation. Galar Linoone is especially fun being able to Parting Shot / Knock Off as a utility mon while also boasting a great speed tier and even has potential to setup itself up with Max Knuckle. Galar Mr. Mime utilizes 2 strong stabs in Psychic and Ice along with Nasty Plot while also having the same great speed tier of 100 shared with Galar Linoone and even having amazing Special bulk as well. The existence of many viable Knockers / Priority users and special tanks such as Piloswine, Doublade and Galar Linoone make this mon not feel too broken while also being fun to use. Drakloak can also outspeed Galar Mime and hit it hard with its stabs. Thwackey and Raboot both show much promise having great offensive stats and movepools as well as even more future promise once their hidden abilities are released. While Drizzile has some nice offensive stats, I honestly don't feel it has a movepool to back it up so it will probably not be as great as the aforementioned starters. I've also seen some cool usage of Morgrem, Galar Corsola and Carkol, and as a Corvisquire stan myself I am excited to keep testing things out in this fresh meta.

In a meta where Dynamaxing is currently free, there are some notable mons which thrive and feel especially strong. One of the key offenders is Rhydon. As a mon who already sports an impressive 105/120 defense stat distribution and easily shrugs off physical attacks with an Eviolite it is clear that this mon would be strong, but the effects of Dynamax moves on both of its stabs give it incredible synergy; Max Rockfall grants Sandstorm for 5 turns which not only chips opponents health but also grants Rhydon a 1.5x Special Defense boost, and Max Quake gives Rhydon +1 Special Defense as well. Given that it already has a massive defense stat and receives a 100% HP increase upon Dynamaxing, this mon's bulk is near unbreakable. Clicking Swords Dance and then using these Dynamax moves along with Max Knuckle for another +1 Attack Boost make this mon insane and it quite honestly doesn't feel balanced. Other notable mons who can abuse this mechanic include Doublade and Type: Null. Doublade, in a similar vain to Rhydon, sports a massive Defensive stat and can also utilize Max Steelspike to further increase it's crazy defense. Both Doublade and Type: Null can run Swords Dance + Dynamax for insane utility and increased bulk while also being able to sweep games.

In my opinion these 3 mons hold the most water for being banworthy in a Dynamax NFE meta, though more testing should be done to see if its truly the case. I am excited to play NFE more in SWSH as the meta is not only very new but also seems very promising already. Here's to a new generation of fun!

 

[TheJ3estPenguin]

I've played only like 3 or 4 nfe games so far but so far i've seen nothing new in gen 8 that can stop mons banned in gen 7.

display #1:
doublade is absolutely busted when it's dynamaxed. doublade doesn't give two fucks about galarian linnone or unboosted rhydon and just instantly revenge kills both with max knuckle and max steelspike respectively. which leads me into my next display,

display #2:
rhydon is equally as busted, if not more, than doublade because rhydon boasts an hp stat that that is ALMOST DOUBLE doublade's. i'll try to add some calcs later but for now you get nothing. personally one of my favorite rhydon sets is double dance and with dynamax that set is gonna absolutely shit on almost everything. it's too fat to kill and i don't believe a scald kills dynamax rhydon so there really isnt a lot that will stop it LOL. this mon is goes batshit in dynamax and WILL 6-0 anything thats not prepared.

ill add more later but im lazy so thats it for now

 

[Spiderz]

So basically heres my thoughts, i don't think we should be too hasty on the descions on any of the bans, besides for Dynamax, if we are to ban Rhydon and Doublade, i think we should at least talk about Dynamax ban first before banning any mon, i think the general problem is dynamax, Dynamax just lets too many pokemon overpower their checks, wish i could show calcs but, in general the problem with dyna is that it allows pokemon to just overpower their checks/counters, for example haunter not being able to kill rhydon with energy ball, while i do agree with some of these bans, i feel as if that they should be tested in a meta without dynamaxing first before saying ban rhydon or ban type null

 

[Jett]

The NFE Council has decided to quickban Shadow Tag, Doublade, Rhydon, and Type: Null. The reasoning for each can be found in the tabs below.

Shadow Tag

Shadow Tag, which is notoriously known to be one of the most uncompetitive abilities Pokemon has ever had, has been banned from NFE. Its main abuser, Gothorita, has varying sets that allow it to trap in enemies creating easy win conditions in a manner that is too effective for the metagame to handle. An example of this is its Choice Scarf + Trick set that traps many common Pokemon such as Gurdurr / Ferroseed and proceeds to set up on them with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot and win. Other than this, it can trap away important checks to very strong powerhouses, such as Farfetch'd to stop Drakloak, Mareanie to stop Raboot, etc. With this in mind, the council has determined this ability to be too powerful for the NFE metagame, and banned it.

Doublade

Doublade is heavily known for it's incredible bulk, and it continues to luster as one of the best pokemon metagame due to this and it's incredible offensive toolkit, and defensive set options. Shadow Sneak lets it bypass it's pitiful speed, while it's incredible bulk allows it to safely use Iron Head and Sacred Sword to handle other threats. It's few checks are easily tarnished and blasted through after minor chip due to its incredible base 110 attack. While it's defensive sets in Iron Defense allow it to be a disgustingly fat wall, letting it slowly chip down teams. With this in mind, Doublade was unanimously voted to Quickban.

Rhydon

Rhydon is a terrifying beast of a wallbreaker, known for smashing everything and then some with its powerful double dance set, capable of ripping the tier in two. With it's incredible STAB coverage in edgequake, and disgustingly powerful stats, alongside its massive physical bulk giving it more than ample setup opportunity, especially with the introduction of Dynamax, this monster is far too much for the NFE metagame. Rhydon may be retested in the future if Dynamax is banned.

Type: Null

Despite having lost Return and Pursuit, Type: Null more or less functions the same way it functioned in early SM NFE, as bulky blanket check to most of the metagames threats, including Haunter and Galarian Mr. Mime. 95 for every stat (except for speed) put Type: Null on a whole other level compared other NFE pokemon. Even Fighting-Types like Gurdurr and Machoke are unable to beat Type: Null thanks to Iron Defense and Type: Null’s ability Battle Armor preventing it from being critted. Additionally, Type: Null is able to PP stall ghost types such as Corsola thanks to Rest. All of these perks make Type: Null too much of a defensive threat for the NFE Metagame, and it has been banned.

 

[Eris]

hello,
everyone has been talking about the big boys dominating the metagame at the moment but I thought I'd quickly mention some of our new additions that have been slowly settling in.

Morgrem
By far my favorite addition of generation 8. Morgrem probably won't be our next S rank and most likely won't reach above A- in any Viability Rankings because of its passivity and lack of role. Its stats are so weird and average, nothing is really outstanding even its movepool is pretty narrow. However it does have a solid typing in Fairy/Dark and good abilities notably Prankster which is the one I will be focusing on. Since the metagame is pretty fat at the moment having a user that can priority taunt and substitute is pre solid, being able to check Corsola and Mareanie is also a very solid attribute. I've provided a few sets that I have used or seen used which may be its best ones. I consider the screen set to be its best at the moment, basically you just throw Morgrem on the field, set up screens and then switch to Rufflet or Mr.Mime and the game is done. The spread I gave should allow you to stay in on Rufflet and Mr.Mime as well to set up your screens, draining kiss will do about the same amount that these mons can do after screens are up which in most cases is pretty advantageous whilst taunt prevents them from setting up.

Drakloak
Also one of my favorite additions, being the fastest mon in the metagame is one of the best quality a Pokemon can have. Drakloak has very solid offensive stats with 80 atk and 60 spatk however it finds itself very limited as a physical threat, the lack of coverage and reliable stab makes it a bit underwhelming. However its special moveset is really good having coverage moves like fire blast, thunderbolt and scald is really solid and allows it to differentiate itself with other dragons in the metagame like fraxure or haka. I've seen it being ran physical with a choice scarf but I personally don't like being locked into phantom force or outrage so i've only provided special sets. Choice Specs is really solid, Drakloak hits a lot of the metagame especially walls like Corsola, Mareanie and Ferroseed which is amazing offensive pressure. We have a good number of 3 fire types at the moment which is very limiting and having fire coverage is really good. The choice scarf sets allows you to outspeed boosted mons such as Rufflet, Farfetch'd and Mr.Mime. Rufflet and Farfetch'd are still slower than you at +2 which is a great advantage to have while you only outspeed Mr.Mime when it is at +1.

Hattrem
I once got bamboozled by this Pokemon (shoutout to mez) and since then I've kinda been in love, this mon is really solid and not many are paying attention to it. It has a really solid offensive stat with 86 spatk making it the new Kadabra. Hattrem also posseses good coverage in dark pulse, dazzling gleam and mystical fire allowing it to hit a large portion of the metatgame. It isn't the fastest threat but I will say that outspeeding Machoke and Gurdurr is all it really needs, especially when you can OHKO them. Being locked into one move is a bit annoying however you always have the dynamax button when feeling stuck. You could also use it on a webs team and run it with life orb which could improve its flexibility and make it a much more scarier threat especially if combined with calm mind and stored power.

 

[Jett]

Hey everyone, just a quick update. Currently, the NFE council is discussing and thinking about what to do with Dynamax. However, I think it’s also important that as many of the NFE community is able to voice their opinions on this mechanic. I urge everyone interested in NFE to share their thoughts on Dynamax, as this will shape the future of the tier.

 

[Darth]

In my opinion, dynamax should not be banned.
Not now, not soon, maybe later.

Core arguments:

-Dynamaxing is way too new for us to have adapted to it to a point where we can decide it's irredeemably broken. When it comes to a core mechanic of the games, it's ludicrous to think we should just outright ban the mechanic and leave it at that. It's a dumpster fire that you throw a towel on.
The mons that currently dominate the meta consist of 5 mons (roughly speaking) that are on a lot of teams and preform reasonably above average, those being (in my personal opinion):
* Corsola
* Mr. Mime-Galar
* Rufflet
* Fraxure
* Farfetch'd

So why do these mons preform well?

Corsola:
Exceptional bulk, eviolite, good typing bar knock off weakness. Can tank hits like crazy, heal with Strength Sap, Burn opponents, Night shade for solid damage (33% on most things) on anything common not named Linoone-Galar or Rufflet, and Haze/Strength Sap/Mirror Coat/Stealth Rock/Whirlpool for tech options aplenty. Corsola, notably, only reactively dynamaxes to counter an opposing dynamax, and does that to good effect. It can, among others, KO haunter, Mr. mime, and duosion without much effort if they should dynamax, although calm mind variants of the former and latter prevent this.

Mr. Mime-Galar:
Good SPA, SPE, and Nasty plot make it a glass cannon that doesnt need eviolite and runs LO or other items instead. While dynamaxing permits Mime to set P. Terrain and break things, it prefers using nasty plot and sweep that way. With or without dynamaxing, Mime would preform the same roles and only face less counters as less mons would be capable of tanking its hits - since it benefits less (50 HP, bad bulk) from dynamax than a lot of mons. when it comes to living hits.

Rufflet:
The most notable example of Dynamaxing making a mon busted, Rufflet abuses its substitute set, max airstream and max knuckle to become a menace that gains ATK and SPE by using its most notable moves in Close Combat and Brave Bird. Hustle + Dynamaxing only adds to why Rufflet is an absolute monster. There is no question that Rufflet is broken, and it's all because of its ability's interaction with Dynamax + The types it likes to fight with having the right boosts in their max moves. Broken.

Fraxure:
A monsterous ATK with Dragon Dance access and very niche moves like First Impression to aid it.
Fraxure is a monster, and annihilates a lot of teams if it gets a DD off. A lot of scarfers can revenge it however, even at +1 (Haunter, Mr. Mime). Fraxure is therefore in the optimal position to DD once, then dynamax and sweep, but turns out it just doesn't do a great job of this, in part because Rufflet is a better more broken dynamax user. It's hard to discuss Fraxure's dynamaxing in that sense.
Fraxure, however, is beyond strong and the fact nobody is talking about it more baffles me.

Farfetch'd-Galar:
The newest addition to mons you would think are shit but really aren't, Farfetch'd finds itself in a unique position where its moveset allows it to boost speed, gain ATK, or lower SPD when it dynamaxes. Last one aside, this is clearly an issue, but Farfetch'd can easily pull off its swords dance set and break defensive teams easily just by Close Combat, Brave bird, and Knock off's combined coverage.
just like with Fraxure, it's impossible to determine whether or not Dynamax breaks Farfetch'd, as there's not been enough time to decide things like this. A lot of people have found Fetch'd to be very strong, but I personally have not seen it being used as someone's main dynamax in most of my battles, despite them not having Rufflet in their team. Fetch'd is a good example of an amazing wallbreaker that would do the exact same jobs with or without dynamaxing, because anything it would do offensively with dynamaxing, an opponent could counter by bulking it out and reverse killing Farfetch'd with their own max move. This is a rudimentary view on Farfetch'd, I am not claiming it's whole, accurate, or final.


Looking at these mons, the only thing I can conclude from my time in NFE is that only 1 Pokemon is thoroughly broken because of Dynamaxing. I do not see how this makes Dynamaxing broken at all, I see Rufflet being broken.
Other people can have different views on this, of course, but the logic that 'dynamax breaks mons' simply has not shone through and I have yet to see someone display a convincing case, as in NFE's current Meta (which is the only thing we should be looking at for a decision like this), only Rufflet is broken as a result of Dynamax, everything else is either substantially vague, broken either way, or too soon too tell.

/endblocktext

 

[TheSealGoesMeow]

I am disappointed by a few mons so lemme explain

Sobble's Evo might look strong HOWEVER sobbles emo phase is a special attacker with 0 special coverage. It's best coverage is surf and round.

G-linoone is something I see everywhere but it's best attributes are quick feet and parting shot. People call it fast yes but it's weak.

But there are 2 sides to the same coin a lot of great mons come from lc?

Cuffant is a coverage King with sheer force it has a great ability if it did not have the great moves to help like iron head and play rough it's surprising

G-Farfetch'd is a surprise but get a sd off and it can be a great dynamax. It can counter so many top tiers, knock off for corsola, first impression for mime it has one counter. Rufflet.

Leave your feedback here

 

[Felucia]

I'm supposed to be having a rest day so I'm not going to write a long sophisticated post and I'm gonna dip after this, but I do have a few things I want to point out here concering my views on Dynamax bans.

First off, I think banning Dynamax should not be our primary option. Given that Dynamax is an intrinsic game mechanic, if we can get off with just banning Pokémon then we should do that
However, It's so hard to judge how many mons we need to ban to balance Dynamax, and equally hard to determine how many mon bans is "too many". This leaves me confused about the course of action to take.
Also, like Seraphus pointed out, not all Pokémon that dominate the metagame are problematic because of Dynamax.
Lastly, I would argue that if you lose to a game to your opponent's Roselia randomly dynamaxing, that's on you for not having anything to check Roselia.

Edit: In case it wasn't clear, I'm open to banning Dynamax but also think people need to take a step back and think about the opssible option of getting away without doing so
Shoutouts Seraphus for putting Whirlpool in the list of Corsola's optional moves

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Dynamaxing in NFE:

The current NFE meta is dominated by the potential to Dyna, which make games largely centralized around when each player pops their Dyna. That distinction of when or where Dyna is used is almost everything, as teams and playstyles are fully supported or fall apart depending on how the Dyna is used. Anyone else with similar experience with games this gen will likely agree that this is the overall effect of Dyna on the game. It is not comparable to any mechanic we've had before, as the entire generation has a new aspect with battling. Sure, other gens introduced the item or ability slot, but Dyna is universally more powerful than anything before.

However, Dyna does favor some mons over others. Specifically in NFE right now, Mime and Rufflet are absurd abusers of Dyna. Mime gets the extra bulk and power to survive SE hits easily and gains a stab buff and priority immunity with Max Psyshock. Rufflet gets perfect accuracy to combo with Hustle, and strong Flying / Fighting attacks to raise speed and attack to basically function as a sweeper and a wallbreaker, that also attacks to set up. Crazy.

As the gen 8 NFE meta is barely a week old, I would rather see the banning of these two mons first before suspecting Dyna. This is largely in accordance to the traditional tiering process of banning mons instead of banning mechanics. Now surely there are exceptions, of which I believe Dyna could easily fit the bill. But it's way too early to do something so drastic for a ban that would affect every single mon in the meta, given anything can Dyna in the right circumstances.

By banning Ruff and Mime, the meta should be on tight observation if the replacements for these sweepers end up just as broken. As it stands now, other NFE sweepers like Klang, Gurdurr, and Fetch can enjoy the benefits of Dyna for the extra bulk and similar max move potential, but can still be stopped by viable walls and offensive checks. Surely, sometimes this relies on the counter Dyna, but not always. Furthermore, the meta is super centralized around Mime, so we can't say for certain what the replacements will be.

Gen 8 is still very early and having a QB for Dyna would leave a lingering "what if" for the rest of the generation that would not age well. Even if Dyna is worth banning, it is absolutely better to try the alternative and tradition of banning the absusers first.

However, It's so hard to judge how many mons we need to ban to balance Dynamax, and equally hard to determine how many mon bans is "too many". This leaves me confused about the course of action to take.

I don't see this as a huge dilemma as with every ban from Dynamax, there is a growing precedent of how unhealthy Dyna potentially is. Again, even though it is very early, we already know what trends make Dyna abusers the most broken in NFE. If the second to third and so on replacements are still are as unhealthy as Dyna Dualdance Rhydon, NP Mime, and Hustle Rufflet were, then it continues to get more obvious that Dyna needs to go. Of course there's no perfect number for how many Dyna bans are enough, but as they come, the evidence will grow.

And as much as I would love to have a similar meta as the past few generations, I cannot safely justify that Dyna is absolutely broken. The evidence isn't there yet, as all signs point to banning the best abusers first.

Mr. Mime-Galar:
Good SPA, SPE, and Nasty plot make it a glass cannon that doesnt need eviolite and runs LO or other items instead. While dynamaxing permits Mime to set P. Terrain and break things, it prefers using nasty plot and sweep that way. With or without dynamaxing, Mime would preform the same roles and only face less counters as less mons would be capable of tanking its hits - since it benefits less (50 HP, bad bulk) from dynamax than a lot of mons. when it comes to living hits.

I wanted to point out this part of your post specifically as I believe Mime to be phenomenal with the Evio bulk + x2 Dyna hp. LO makes Mime just so much more vulnerable easy to get KO'd by chip, and the extra 30% isn't doing the same as actually surviving hits and setting up. You're already so strong with max moves and Psy Terrain, its much more viable to have the bulk to set up spins for speed or NPs for power; or both tbh.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nfe-1014584613
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nfe-1014591027

These are good example where Evio let me live multiple hits while cleaning late game. Mime is totally a broken mon with Dyna in the tier, and even without it its still incredibly centralizing for the speed, power, and spin in a meta with barely any hazard removal. Its hands down the best remover and there is no reason not to run it on your team with the utility and offensive presence it brings. That of course is mostly because of the flexibility that Evio sets give, allowing you to Dyna sweep / break when needed.

 

[Felucia]

I don't see this as a huge dilemma as with every ban from Dynamax, there is a growing precedent of how unhealthy Dyna potentially is. Again, even though it is very early, we already know what trends make Dyna abusers the most broken in NFE. If the second to third and so on replacements are still are as unhealthy as Dyna Dualdance Rhydon, NP Mime, and Hustle Rufflet were, then it continues to get more obvious that Dyna needs to go. Of course there's no perfect number for how many Dyna bans are enough, but as they come, the evidence will grow.

at risk of getting into a long conversation about intentions of specific lines in specific posts, I want to clarify that I aimed at banning Dynamax before anything else. I agree just banning things and waiting to see when/if we realize "hey, we just keep banning mons maybe Dyna was the problem" would be much more intuitive than pondering how many mon bans are enough to justify banning Dynamax, however many people I've talked to are unwilling to take the step towards banning pokemon because of this risk of banning more pokemon, and as I cannot predict how many will be banned in the future after first bans, that's leaving me unable to decide if it's worth banning Dynamax before anything else.

 

[Darth]

Spoiler

Dynamaxing in NFE:

The current NFE meta is dominated by the potential to Dyna, which make games largely centralized around when each player pops their Dyna. That distinction of when or where Dyna is used is almost everything, as teams and playstyles are fully supported or fall apart depending on how the Dyna is used. Anyone else with similar experience with games this gen will likely agree that this is the overall effect of Dyna on the game. It is not comparable to any mechanic we've had before, as the entire generation has a new aspect with battling. Sure, other gens introduced the item or ability slot, but Dyna is universally more powerful than anything before.

However, Dyna does favor some mons over others. Specifically in NFE right now, Mime and Rufflet are absurd abusers of Dyna. Mime gets the extra bulk and power to survive SE hits easily and gains a stab buff and priority immunity with Max Psyshock. Rufflet gets perfect accuracy to combo with Hustle, and strong Flying / Fighting attacks to raise speed and attack to basically function as a sweeper and a wallbreaker, that also attacks to set up. Crazy.

As the gen 8 NFE meta is barely a week old, I would rather see the banning of these two mons first before suspecting Dyna. This is largely in accordance to the traditional tiering process of banning mons instead of banning mechanics. Now surely there are exceptions, of which I believe Dyna could easily fit the bill. But it's way too early to do something so drastic for a ban that would affect every single mon in the meta, given anything can Dyna in the right circumstances.

By banning Ruff and Mime, the meta should be on tight observation if the replacements for these sweepers end up just as broken. As it stands now, other NFE sweepers like Klang, Gurdurr, and Fetch can enjoy the benefits of Dyna for the extra bulk and similar max move potential, but can still be stopped by viable walls and offensive checks. Surely, sometimes this relies on the counter Dyna, but not always. Furthermore, the meta is super centralized around Mime, so we can't say for certain what the replacements will be.

Gen 8 is still very early and having a QB for Dyna would leave a lingering "what if" for the rest of the generation that would not age well. Even if Dyna is worth banning, it is absolutely better to try the alternative and tradition of banning the absusers first.



I don't see this as a huge dilemma as with every ban from Dynamax, there is a growing precedent of how unhealthy Dyna potentially is. Again, even though it is very early, we already know what trends make Dyna abusers the most broken in NFE. If the second to third and so on replacements are still are as unhealthy as Dyna Dualdance Rhydon, NP Mime, and Hustle Rufflet were, then it continues to get more obvious that Dyna needs to go. Of course there's no perfect number for how many Dyna bans are enough, but as they come, the evidence will grow.

And as much as I would love to have a similar meta as the past few generations, I cannot safely justify that Dyna is absolutely broken. The evidence isn't there yet, as all signs point to banning the best abusers first.



I wanted to point out this part of your post specifically as I believe Mime to be phenomenal with the Evio bulk + x2 Dyna hp. LO makes Mime just so much more vulnerable easy to get KO'd by chip, and the extra 30% isn't doing the same as actually surviving hits and setting up. You're already so strong with max moves and Psy Terrain, its much more viable to have the bulk to set up spins for speed or NPs for power; or both tbh.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nfe-1014584613
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nfe-1014591027

These are good example where Evio let me live multiple hits while cleaning late game. Mime is totally a broken mon with Dyna in the tier, and even without it its still incredibly centralizing for the speed, power, and spin in a meta with barely any hazard removal. Its hands down the best remover and there is no reason not to run it on your team with the utility and offensive presence it brings. That of course is mostly because of the flexibility that Evio sets give, allowing you to Dyna sweep / break when needed.

I'll comment quickly by posting 2 calcs (with their proper stat changes etc):

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Misdreavus (Corsola-G) in Psychic Terrain: 308-364 (50.8 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-> Galarian Mime LO Dynamaxed vs Corsola-Galar max SPD Eviolite (using 200 HP (total 606, which is less than corsola had but it's enough to prove the point here) = 2HKO if you use max mind twice.

+2 252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Misdreavus (Corsola-G) in Psychic Terrain: 237-280 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Same deal, but misses out on the 2HKO.
So while yes, eviolite provides bulk, it's worth noting that it does miss out on the kill in this (admittedly very niche situation)

Ho3nConfirm3d the spoiler is just for you
I agree with Felucia, on the idea of banning dynamax could come later retroactively.

 

[Grace Featherstone]

Interesting things to look at:
Removal of Knock Off/no Knock Off TR:
First up, the most important change for Gen 8 imo. The removal of Knock Off as both a tutor and learnable move (for the most part): it is quite good in all tiers and formals, 1.5x in power if able to remove the opponent's item. This unfortunately removes viability of some mons in NFE, or at least, have lower viability.

Knock Off Variety:
With the previous change, of course, changes how many Pokemon now get Knock Off. That being 22 'mons compared to last gen's 72 and with that, we have no idea how Home works just yet. This means that if a Gurdurr with Knock Off was transferred to SWSH, we don't know if it can transfer Knock Off. Mind that I am saying this because of the huge changes from Gen 7 to Gen 8 and that brings us to the next topic...

Dexit/Movexit/Old bans in the bew Gen:
With the removal of certain moves such as Pursuit, learnsets like Knock Off and removed Pokemon altogether from transfer/no Nat. Dex means different bans must been in place and some Pokemon banned in Gen 7 and earlier do not need to be banned in this current gen.

Two such examples are Gurdurr and Sneasel. As quick examples: For Gurdurr, Knock Off is now illegal for it which means it cannot hit Psychics super effectively. For Sneasel, as Pursuit is removed and Knock Off cannot be on its moveset in the current gen, it loses great momentum and power compared to the old days.

New 'mons/Forms:
With the addition of Galarian Evolution means that some previously evolutionless Pokemon now have a form with an evolution. Honestly, Galarian Corsola is the biggest deal from this as it has great defense -- although it is not strong with 55/65 offenses. As well as this, Dynamax can (sometimes) deal with it but will never be able to OHKO it without boosts, and here we start the next section.

Dynamax:
With Dynamax comes powered up moves that give an additional effect. This can be quite problematic with the right Pokemon and moves, such as Max Knuckle on Machoke. Honestly, if you were to ask me, I would review certain Pokemon before banning it and after see how problematic it is.

Summary:
All in all, I think this generation of NFE has quite a lot of potential and should be looked at with care. With moves removed and Home still unreleased, there is a lot of ways this meta could change.

 

[85percent]

There are definitely some issues with the current NFE „meta“, and some of them have nothing to do with dmax in my opinion – namely that the best Pokemon (Mr. Mime-G, Corsola-G, Rufflet, Piloswine, Haunter and Machoke / Gurdurr) are generally so much better than some of the others, that using them is more important than a solid team structure, rendering building somewhat obsolete. Out of this list, only Rufflet really benefits disproportionately from dmax.

Nonetheless I think it is worth it to take a general look at dmax outside of the current meta situation. Because even if we manage to create a very diverse meta, with a variety of usable Pokemon and strategies – maybe through banning certain problematic Pokemon – there is one inherent issue I have with dmax:


My main issue is how much every single game revolves around dmax, effectively splitting the game in pre-dmax, dmax and post-dmax. Pre-dmax mostly consisting of hazard setting, removal of Eviolite and positioning to avoid giving your opponent an opening for their dmax (this positioning can lead to weird lose-lose situations where you have to preserve something for a potential dmax, even though it would be your main check in the current situation). During the dmax you are mostly trying to limit damage (maybe through use of your own dmax) and discourage them from using certain max moves (flying mostly), which would otherwise make revenge killing impossible. The Post-dmax phase is very strange, because the consequences of dmax are hard to predict (the unpredictable nature of dmax in general is a big problem). Oftentimes you are left with an incomplete team that is missing certain tools to play a clean end-game.

This isn't really about the power of dmax, it is moreso about the question of whether or not this new „thing“ has much to do with the game we love to play. There was always a difference between the early-, mid-, and end stages of a battle, but dmax just takes this to an extreme.

 

[Darth]

There are definitely some issues with the current NFE „meta“, and some of them have nothing to do with dmax in my opinion – namely that the best Pokemon (Mr. Mime-G, Corsola-G, Rufflet, Piloswine, Haunter and Machoke / Gurdurr) are generally so much better than some of the others, that using them is more important than a solid team structure, rendering building somewhat obsolete. Out of this list, only Rufflet really benefits disproportionately from dmax.

Nonetheless I think it is worth it to take a general look at dmax outside of the current meta situation. Because even if we manage to create a very diverse meta, with a variety of usable Pokemon and strategies – maybe through banning certain problematic Pokemon – there is one inherent issue I have with dmax:


My main issue is how much every single game revolves around dmax, effectively splitting the game in pre-dmax, dmax and post-dmax. Pre-dmax mostly consisting of hazard setting, removal of Eviolite and positioning to avoid giving your opponent an opening for their dmax (this positioning can lead to weird lose-lose situations where you have to preserve something for a potential dmax, even though it would be your main check in the current situation). During the dmax you are mostly trying to limit damage (maybe through use of your own dmax) and discourage them from using certain max moves (flying mostly), which would otherwise make revenge killing impossible. The Post-dmax phase is very strange, because the consequences of dmax are hard to predict (the unpredictable nature of dmax in general is a big problem). Oftentimes you are left with an incomplete team that is missing certain tools to play a clean end-game.

This isn't really about the power of dmax, it is moreso about the question of whether or not this new „thing“ has much to do with the game we love to play. There was always a difference between the early-, mid-, and end stages of a battle, but dmax just takes this to an extreme.

The issue I take with this generalization is that it's never been taken this way before.
Z-moves were the same general principle where your general check might be in danger because of the mechanic, and that went over fine.
One could argue Stealth Rock itself is the same - something that completely defines the game you're playing - and yet that's totally fine too.

If Dynamax is meta-defining and Central to the games.... then maybe that;s because that's what Gamefreak wanted it to be. Provided it's not broken aka it's not creating a situation where the less skillful play is more likely to win, that's no reason to ban a mechanic.

 

[SBPC]

Alright, time for me to put down a quick post on dynamax because I need to run through and do this.

Banworthy?:
My huge issue with dynamax right now is the utter atrocity that is trying to build counterplay for absolutely insane abusers such as Galar Mime, Rufflet, Haunter, Pawniard, and Machoke. Read through that list more than once and you'll notice a common theme amongst these mons is that they either become damn near untouchable from the doubling of their HP, or just become disgusting sweepers after pressing two to three buttons. Now after thinking on this for a few hours, I personally think that we need to go through and hold votes on Rufflet and Galarian-Mr. Mime as soon as possible, because a lot of games recently have boiled down to one of those two mons pressing the big shiny button and start taking out threats for absolutely free while setting themselves up to become quickly unstoppable. And you'd think it'd be said and done there...

Domino Effect: A Miniature Essay
I need to address something before we just off and ban these two, and live onwards with the result of it. Both of the pokemon I just listed are some of the few surviving checks to Fighting types that can be fitted onto teams easily. My huge fear with banning this and not dynamax is the potenial domino effect of watching as a set of missing checks suddenly makes a decent group of mons overly centralizing without any hard stop to it. Galar Mime, for example, may be extremely powerful due to its dynamax features of giving it psychic terrain as well as disgustingly powerful STABs, but say that and Rufflet go missing, whats to stop Gurdurr, Machoke, and Galarian-Farfetch'd from suddenly having this same caliber of oppressive play on the tier?

Lastly, I would argue that if you lose to a game to your opponent's Roselia randomly dynamaxing, that's on you for not having anything to check Roselia.

I get what you were going for when saying this, but a massive issue with this statement is that often, stacking members that are checked by the same pokemon can be advantageous now due to this mechanic, suddenly making your pokemon bulkier and thus harder to offensively check while it repeatedly stacks boosts (in this example, max ooze spatk raises) that your team isn't going to be built to handle. Dynamax simply makes some parts of building in theory impossible, and substitute setup sweepers like Pawniard and Rufflet are prime examples of this "My check suddenly cannot function because x took growth steroids" scenario that games often find happening.


The ending to this all is, as much as I'd love to just adapt and keep building ways to beat dynamax, the severe lack of type checks (thanks dexit) and overwhelming range of great offense mons that slowly topple on eachother make it in theory just a trainwreck. (ban mime and ruff tho lol they busted anyways)

 

[85percent]

The issue I take with this generalization is that it's never been taken this way before.
Z-moves were the same general principle where your general check might be in danger because of the mechanic, and that went over fine.
One could argue Stealth Rock itself is the same - something that completely defines the game you're playing - and yet that's totally fine too.

If Dynamax is meta-defining and Central to the games.... then maybe that;s because that's what Gamefreak wanted it to be. Provided it's not broken aka it's not creating a situation where the less skillful play is more likely to win, that's no reason to ban a mechanic.

Yes, I partly agree. I would, however, argue that both z-moves and Stealth Rock are different. Z-moves are limited to one 'mon on your team (yea, you can run two, but you don't really do that). Narrowing possible z users down to around 2 of your opponent's 'mons is not that hard in most cases, so you know what to prepare for and can start making a plan instead of just playing along. Also z-moves don't come with the increase in bulk, so your Rufflet for example a) has to outspeed and b) can easily be killed afterward. Lastly z-moves (with very few exceptions) aren't high powered moves with boosting effects. So you either take a lot of damage or they boost, not both. The boosting makes max moves much harder to play around. As such I would disagree with z-moves having the same centralizing effect in battle as max moves.
Stealth Rocks shape basically every battle and team building to a good amount, I fully agree with that. But the difference to max moves is that Stealth Rocks spread it over your entire team / the entire duration of the battle in an absolutely predictable way, instead of randomly eliminating team members and dismantling / disrupting your team structure over the course of just 3 out of ~30 turns.

Also as slight addition to my initial post, since Felucia mentioned a lack of clarity in regard to whether my post suggests a reduction or an increase in the importance of skill that comes with dmax: That wasn't really the focus of the post. What I mentioned does, however, suggest that there is a certain skill involved in handling dmax and every play that leads up to those 3 turns - I don't think anyone would argue the opposite. Clicking the right moves with a dmax Pokemon is hardly difficult, but timing the dmax correctly is tricky and rewards positioning. Keeping your opponent from getting into a position where they can get the most out of their dmax requires skill aswell. But it also leads to a lot of guessing and situations where the outcome of my play is either bad or very bad - prediction my opponent's dmax is inherently random to an extend, and as such leads to variance that's not fully caused by skill. This unpredictability even creeps into teambuilding and may force more redundancy.

I hope this was somewhat clear.

 

[PH]

hi, nfe's favourite clown here (probably least after this god awful post).

so i'm just gonna go straight into the discussion i want to get into which is dynamax and whether it is banworthy atm. personally, as soon as i built a team and played a game this gen i couldnt help but think dmax was completely stupid, uncompetitive and broken and that was a fair assumption since there was minimal counterplay, if any. however, i do think there have been fairly big changes as to how people deal with dmax in the past few days. for example, morgrem is a pokemon that would most likely be unviable or have a tiny niche in nfe if it werent for dmax but in this current meta it has found its niche as a successful answer to dmax. prankster+sub/twave allows it to cripple and/or stall out dmax turns due to prankster-affected sub not being blocked by dark types. this is precisely the reason i think dmax really shouldnt be banned atm. the meta is still brand new and i dont think people are giving any time to let the meta adapt. another point i would like throw into the discussion is about using dmax defensively rather than offensively. several mons such as corsola, piloswine and even machoke to a certain extent can abuse the hp boost given to them by dynamaxing and lives hits that they normally wouldnt and can deal damage themselves. i believe banning the main abusers of dmax such as rufflet, maybe pilo and haunter (?) rather than banning the whole mechanic immediately would be a much easier and better solution in general as it goes by the tiering policy on smogon. in all honesty there arent even that many abusers that seem broken, maybe im just wrong on that but broken abusers seem fairly limited from what ive seen. using dmax defensively can be seen here in a game i played vs ho3n. woobat was about to completely clean but pilo was able to dmax itself, gain the hp boost and eat the hit afterward, allowing it to deal with the woobat and only took like 27% back. this makes it more balanced and raises the skill cap as it keeps you and your opponent thinking whether you should pop ur dmax or keep it in the back, which i dont think is inherently a bad thing.

however, this doesnt mean i dont think dmax is a stupid mechanic. having 3 turns worth of 1.5x/2x hp and free zmoves with secondary effects at your disposal with no drawback whatsoever basically lets anything become a cleaner without having to sacrifice anything in return. mons such as rufflet are able to become extremely scary cleaners with dmax being free. all rufflet need to do is get behind a sub and click bulk up then dmax airstrike/knuckle a few times to raise your speed and/or attack, giving you a monster with hustle, +2 attack, +1 defense and +2 speed. not to mention max moves cant miss so hustle doesnt affect rufflet's ability to clean whilst dmaxed. max moves, namely airstrike and knuckle seem extremely unhealthy and can push many, many mons over the edge as seen with rufflet and a pick i feel that ppl dont really consider as much, farfetch'd. both suffer from middling speed but can simply max airstrike and gain a ton of speed whilst doing big damage to the opposing pokemon, making them extremely difficult to revenge kill. the fact that protect, dbond and phazing dont work on dmax also just shows how frustrating and at times, impossible to deal with.

personally, i think dmax is really annoying and makes for unfun gameplay but i do still think its too early to make a decision as to whether its "broken" or not as there hasnt been any time for the meta to adapt. ty for reading ;3 (sorry if this is badly worded or i said some stuff wrong im bad at this type of stuff lol)

tl;dr: i hate dmax and it sux but i think its too early to make a choice

 

[Darth]

Yes, I partly agree. I would, however, argue that both z-moves and Stealth Rock are different. Z-moves are limited to one 'mon on your team (yea, you can run two, but you don't really do that). Narrowing possible z users down to around 2 of your opponent's 'mons is not that hard in most cases, so you know what to prepare for and can start making a plan instead of just playing along. Also z-moves don't come with the increase in bulk, so your Rufflet for example a) has to outspeed and b) can easily be killed afterward. Lastly z-moves (with very few exceptions) aren't high powered moves with boosting effects. So you either take a lot of damage or they boost, not both. The boosting makes max moves much harder to play around. As such I would disagree with z-moves having the same centralizing effect in battle as max moves.
Stealth Rocks shape basically every battle and team building to a good amount, I fully agree with that. But the difference to max moves is that Stealth Rocks spread it over your entire team / the entire duration of the battle in an absolutely predictable way, instead of randomly eliminating team members and dismantling / disrupting your team structure over the course of just 3 out of ~30 turns.

Also as slight addition to my initial post, since Felucia mentioned a lack of clarity in regard to whether my post suggests a reduction or an increase in the importance of skill that comes with dmax: That wasn't really the focus of the post. What I mentioned does, however, suggest that there is a certain skill involved in handling dmax and every play that leads up to those 3 turns - I don't think anyone would argue the opposite. Clicking the right moves with a dmax Pokemon is hardly difficult, but timing the dmax correctly is tricky and rewards positioning. Keeping your opponent from getting into a position where they can get the most out of their dmax requires skill aswell. But it also leads to a lot of guessing and situations where the outcome of my play is either bad or very bad - prediction my opponent's dmax is inherently random to an extend, and as such leads to variance that's not fully caused by skill. This unpredictability even creeps into teambuilding and may force more redundancy.

I hope this was somewhat clear.

I disagree with the second half, fully agree with the first half.
Predicting Dynamax can cost you games, but so can mispredicting anything else. Pokemon is an extremely prediction-heavy game, that's just how it is. This is another, extreme, layer to that.
If you predict correctly, you eliminate their dynamax entirely and gain an upper hand big time. If you mispredict, they get the chance to.

Situations:

1. Predict Dynamax so you dynamax yourself. Opponent dynamaxes too. Game proceeds normally.
2. Predict Dynamax so you can dynamax yourself. Opponent does not dynamax. You made a mistake, but you do have 3 turns to use your dynamax.
3. Predict Dynamax so you can go to your dedicated counter for the mon you're predicting for. Play continues normally regardless, because if they don't Dynamax, then it's a switch like any other.
4. Predict no dynamax. Opponent dynamaxes. Either it was a good surprise on their end, or you made a mistake.

Randomness isn't really a thing, and the variety is more a factor of how good you are at reading the situation than "luck" or "not skill".


tldr predict like any other, it's as skillful as any other predict.

 

[Jett]

Hey, I wanted to drop a couple of my thoughts on Dynamax, and why I ultimately believe it should go soon.

Dynamax and Choice Items
There are two opportunity costs of using a Choice Item in NFE, you’re giving up Eviolite which is a powerful defensive tool and you’re giving up your ability to switch moves. Dynamax allows Choiced Pokemon to do are switch moves, use moves which have extremely powerful secondary effects and increase the health of the Pokemon.

Dynamax gives the flexibility to sets such as Banded Sneasel, Specs Galarian Mr Mime (G-Mime) and Scarf Haunter to not just be effective Revenge Killers or Wallbreakers, but gives them the additional agency to become effective sweepers as they are all able to increase the power of their moves due to Max Attacks. Not only that but Dynamax also gives added bulk essentially filling the the two main drawbacks of using an Choiced Item.

Dynamax’s interaction with Choice Items is something which I think limits skill expression and partially removes the risk of using Choice Items in the first place. Probability management is part of the game and I think Dynamax takes some of that away as more often than not Dynamax favours the more proactive player of the two. I think this point is often overlooked as most people like to tunnel in on the combination of Eviolite and Dynamax on bulky sweepers being very powerful, but Dynamax is extremely flexible and its synergy with most items in the game make it unhealthily centralising in the NFE tier.

Dynamax and Teambuilding
Teambuilding has become significantly more restrictive with the introduction of Dynamax for two main reasons, Dynamax is an extremely powerful offensive tool and therefore nearly all Pokemon are unable to check a Dynamax Pokemon without also using Dynamax. This forces the metagame to revolve around Dynamax, the best Dynamax abusers and the best Dynamax “checks”. Whilst on paper this would almost always result in a Dynamax one for one trade, Dynamax has shown to be very favoured towards Pokemon with setup moves and benefit proactive play more than reactive play. The nature of Dynamax is that it is very unpredictable and which limits the amount of viable Pokemon.

What this means is that Dynamax has caused teambuilding to be extremely linear and the meta has become a few Pokemon with setup and then support Pokemon. This can be seen with Rufflet and Galarian Farfetch’d, which would both be decent threats without Dynamax but have there issues of speed control, and accuracy specifically for Rufflet being fixed with Dynamax. Other Pokemon such as Diglett, Galarian Linoone and Roselia are common support Pokemon which set up hazards and let setup sweepers have an easier time setting up. Almost all teams on the ladder have followed this similar style of teambuilding.

I firmly believe that Dynamax restricts the flexibility of what Pokemon can be used effectively and limits the impact that teambuilding has on the game. It is extremely difficult to prepare for the offensive threats because even the 7th or 8th best Dynamax abuser need to be prepared for as Dynamax makes any decent Pokemon extremely potent as long as it has setup. I think that banning the best Dynamax abusers (Rufflet and Galarian Mr Mime) will not particularly target the issue of teambuilding as the next best alternatives will be used instead and most notably Fighting-types and Haunter will significantly benefit from the removal of their offensive checks.

Dynamax and In-Battle
Whilst I’ve already touched on it briefly before in the teambuilding section, there are really only two ways of dealing with an offensive Dynamax which is defensively dynamaxing and using stuff like Substitute to stall turns of Dynamax. The latter is pretty much never done on defensive Pokemon whilst the former is problematic as Dynamax has proved that its benefits are favoured far more towards offensive play than defensive play. Dynamaxing defensively is much harder to capitalise on also tends to mean you lose far more tempo than the person who dynamaxes offensively.

I also believe that Dynamax significantly limits the different ways you can win the game and instead forces every match to be centred around how Dynamax are used. I think this is extremely unhealthy and somewhat uncompetitive as Dynamax has significantly limited the impact the rest of the game has and forces too much of a spotlight on one decision in the game.

Overall, Dynamax is mean and I prefer we proactively look into it more so we can ban it if it continues to be broken.