NFE NFE Metagame Discussion

hi this is going to be my post explaining why Corsola-Galar should not be left alone and stay legal till home (haunter and machoke shouldn't be the only ones to be suspected).
Corsola is overcentralizing. By definition of the word "counter", there are none to gorsola.
0 SpA Corsola-Galar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haunter: 198-234 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 151-179 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
As shown above, Haunter who is the best breaker in the tier does about half to corsola and cannot switch in if it carries Shadow Ball. Another common answer to Corsola-Galar is Machoke, who can knock it off and get 1v1'd by strength sap. Although choke is definitely a wisp switch in, it again cannot beat corsola 1v1 and often has to rely on knocking it off and denying recovery with either mons with extremely low attack (lampent roselia) or magic bounce (basically just Hattrem). As a result, it is undeniably clear the amount of resources a player has to expend of breaking a single pokemon is larger than any mon in the tier.

I haven't covered abt Haunter yet but yeah that shit is pretty broken too.
Verdict: Dual Suspect both Haunter and Corsola-Galar.
in my opinion this is the clear way to ensure that the tier isn't fucked balance-wise. Without Haunter, one of Corsola's checks even though it cannot switch in, Corsola-Galar becomes even more obnoxious than before with the primary answer that hits it for the most damage being gone. On the other hand, without Corsola-Galar, Haunter is not affected as much but is still extremely strong due to the reasons explained in the posts before mine (practically no switch-ins, good speed tier, extremely strong ghost moves). I'm extremely sick right now and I couldn't make this longer so I hope I got my point across.
also machoke is not broken u guys are capping, if necessary it should be looked at after haunter and gorsola, not before.
 

SBPC

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Beating vooper to the punch on this one

Welcome to Pokemon Home! With the release of the new way to transfer up old gen pokemon to the current generation, lots of new toys have found their way into our metagame, and with a large portion of them being very very usable at that. I'm posting this reference guide to help give thinking room what you guys think on the meta post-home will look like!

Stage 2:
Cosmoem
Ivysaur
Wartortle
Torracat
Brionne
Dartrix

LC:
Gen 1 and 7 starters
Cosmog
Meltan
Ponyta
Diglett-Alola
Meowth-Alola
Vulpix-Alola
Slowpoke
Zigzagoon
Darumaka

Using the VR in order to keep relevance, all new gen pokemon have been cut and moves are somewhat cherry picked to the more usable additions. (Even if the move is unviable on standard sets, i included any additional coverage moves gained)

S-Rank

S

A-Rank

A+


:Haunter: Knock Off, Explosion
:Machoke: Toxic, Focus Punch
:Piloswine: Toxic, Roar

A
:Ferroseed: nothing relevant
:Sneasel: Knock Off, Toxic, Focus Punch

A-

:Fraxure: Aqua Tail, Toxic
:Gloom: nothing relevant
:Klang: Toxic
:Mareanie: Covet
:Rufflet: Roost

B-Rank

B+


:Charjabug: Toxic
:Gurdurr: Knock Off, Toxic
:Pawniard: Knock Off, Toxic

B

:Clefairy: Soft-Boiled, Toxic, Knock Off
:Duosion: Toxic
:Lampent: Toxic
:Palpitoad: nothing relevant
:Roselia: nothing relevant
:Togetic: Roost, Soft Boiled, Toxic
:Trapinch: nothing relevant

B-

:Hakamo-o: Toxic
:Munchlax: Chip Away
:Natu: Toxic
:Pikachu: Knock Off, Toxic
:Vullaby: Toxic
:Vulpix: nothing relevant

C-Rank

C+


:Honedge: Toxic
:Mudbray: nothing relevant
:Remoraid: nothing relevant
:Shelmet: Toxic, Infestation
:Zweilous: nothing relevant

C

:Diglett: Toxic
:Drilbur: Toxic
:Sliggoo: nothing relevant

C-

:Boldore: Toxic
:Dewpider: nothing relevant
:Dusclops: Toxic
:Shellos: Toxic

:wartortle: This Thing Got Shell Smash Lol

:torracat: this thing being back means we have a cool scarfer with intimidate

:meltan: could potenially be fun but its movepool kinda blows

Some quick discussion topics to throw out there
1: What pokemon do you find to be "winners" of going into the future meta, and what impact will they have on the metagame?
2: Inverse to question 1: what threats are the "losers" of these changes and have to face stiff competition or struggle to be as prominent because of new additions?
3: What are your thoughts on the newly introduced threats? What relevant roles could they supply in the meta?
4: How does the reintroduction of the Knock Off TM shift the meta, if at all?
5: While this only lists the VR pokemon, are there any pokemon that could see a surge in viability from an addition they recieve?
 
Hi all! I'm somewhat new to NFE, but I do ladder on a regular basis and have a grip on what mons are good and bad in the meta. So that Home is out, I want to share my thoughts on which mons strictly improved or gotten completely nerfed from this as Home being out is going to effect the meta quite a bit.

Winners & Losers


These 2 are the biggest winners of Home coming out. Both got Knock back, but these 2 moves will make them so much better. Sneasel doesn't have to rely on Throat chop for Dark STAB anymore as the utility knock provides with getting rid of an item is invaluable for a meta like this. Gurdurr is arguably even more buffed from this as it gets somewhat walled by most all ghosts without Payback, now it can hit them hard and threaten them out while still having as much utility if not more post-home, oh and speaking of Gorsola.



Fortunately, this is the absolute biggest loser of this entire thing. Gorsola has been dominant but one of the reasons for that was because of the lack of Knock off and Toxic distribution. Now with at least one of the 2 being on above 50% of all of the viable mons, Gorsola is going to be significantly worse and not as absurdly overwhelming as before as it has much more counterplay than pre-home.

As for the new Pokemon



Ngl I feel like these 2 are the only ones that will potentially have an impact on the meta, especially Ivy with the 3 deadly sins, Growth + Solarbeam + Weather Ball. So Ivysaur on sun will probably be broke but hopefully Ivysaur doesn't make sun as a whole too overbearing. As for Wartortle, Shell Smash is a nice new tech, as stuff like Ferro that would probably wall it to bits get hit hard by an Aura Sphere, let's see how much its Shell Smash set will hit the meta.

So in conclusion, Gurdurr and Sneasel got strictly better; Gorsola (thank god) was completely nerfed, and as for Ivysaur and Wartortle, time will tell. Anyway I can't wait to see how this meta evolves, this meta is so fun and I will continue to keep in track of the trends and shifts of the meta. As always, have a nice day! :psyglad:
 
A Tale of Two Foxes

Home’s been out for a day now, and both Vulpix forms have been vital for the success of two of the strongest archetypes at the moment. Regular Vulpix is the only Pokemon in the tier with access to Drought which is a must-have on Sun teams, whilst Alolan Vulpix is the only Hail setter which also has access to Aurora Veil, defining Screens setup spam.

Sun
:Vulpix: :Ivysaur: :Charmeleon: :Gloom:

Before Home was released, Sun was already a solid archetype, which revolved around Charmeleon and Gloom as the Sun abusers/sweepers. However, both of these Pokemon had very easy to fit counterplay. Charmeleon has very poor coverage and is forced to run Choice Scarf or else it is very easily revenge killed. Bulky Fire resists like Palpitoad, Mareanie and, Carkol can generally switch into Charmeleon’s attacks with relative ease. Gloom, on the other hand, is completely walled by Steel-types. Both of these Pokemon are also easily revenge killed by faster Pokemon such as Choice Haunter and Toxic Orb Linoone.

Home gave Sun teams a significant buff, in the form of Ivysaur, which has become the best Sun sweeper in the metagame. Unlike Gloom, Ivysaur has the coverage to hit Steel-types with Weather Ball under Sun, making it much harder to switch into. After a Growth, Ivysaur is able to nuke everything except for a few special walls (Carkol, Munchlax and, Sliggoo) and Lampent. Ivysaur also has the option to run Sleep Powder to cripple opposing Pokemon which Sun struggles against.

Not only is Ivysaur an extremely potent wallbreaker but it synergises very well with other core Sun members. Charmeleon greatly appreciates having another Grass-type to check opposing Water-types. In return, Charmeleon can fire off Solar Power boosted Ancient Power to deal with Fire-types which threaten Ivysaur. Ivysaur also pairs well with Gloom, since Ivysaur is able to deal with Steel-types which wall Gloom, whilst Gloom is able to easily deal with Mareanie, as it’s able to fit Sleep Powder more easily. Vulpix can cripple opposing Pokemon with Encore, Will-O-Wisp, Hypnosis or Memento, giving Ivysaur ample setup opportunities.

Overall, I believe the addition of Ivysaur has made Sun teams far too effective at breaking teams. I’d like either Vulpix or Drought to be looked at. Normally it’s preferred to ban a Pokemon over banning an ability, since smogon doesn’t agree with the premise of nerfing Pokemon in order to make them fit in a tier. However, I think that arguments can be made that Drought could be breaking multiple Pokemon or at least the combination of them is slightly uncompetitive for NFE to keep. I’d love to hear others’ opinions on this matter.

Aurora Veil
:Vulpix-Alola: :Rufflet: :Sneasel: :Klang: :Gurdurr: :Fraxure: :Wartortle:

Home also gave us back Alolan Vulpix, along with returning some important moves to several setup sweepers. Alolan Vulpix is not only the premier Aurora Veil user at the moment but it’s also lowkey one of the better answers to broken Sun teams. Aurora Veil synergises amazing with setup sweepers, most notably Rufflet. Double Dance Rufflet is incredibly broken behind veil, because it can easily setup on a tier predominantly revolving around physical attackers. Rufflet also got Roost to further help its reliability in setting up. Whilst I do think Rufflet is something which should be looked at as it is absurdly strong on its own and the biggest benefactor of Aurora Veil, many other Pokemon are also easily able to abuse it.

Sneasel and Gurdurr received an amazing buff with Knock Off back in their arsenal, the Swords Dance and Bulk Up sets, respectively, are very difficult to deal with behind screens. It makes revenge killing far more difficult and in Gurdurr’s case lets it beat other Gurdurrs as Bulk Up wars aren’t too infrequent. However, Aurora Veil’s power should be carefully examined when looking at these two.I personally think both Gurdurr and Sneasel are broken, as they can now easily break for themselves and don’t require Aurora Veil support to be used effectively.

Other setup sweepers such as Klang, Wartortle, and Fraxure do benefit greatly from Aurora Veil support. It’s very easy to overwhelm the opponent with multiple setup sweepers with Veil support as the majority of teams are simply not adept to deal with it. It’s very difficult to keep up offensive pressure and Pokemon faster than Alolan Vulpix in, in order to not give it the opportunity to setup screens. NFE doesn’t have a particularly large pool of Defog users and the majority of viable Defog users don't enjoy taking a STAB Blizzard from Alolan Vulpix making this archetype even harder to deal with.

In conclusion, I’m leaning towards looking at Alolan Vulpix/Aurora Veil as the main problem in the tier, with its incredible ability to reliably support every Pokemon. Realistically Aurora Veil can only be effectively used Vulpix as the alternative would be using Snover to setup Hail or manually setting it up and then have Vanillish as the Veil user, so this would suggest that Alolan Vulpix is what we should target first. I’m still not certain though, since it might just be certain setup sweepers are making this archetype far too dominating. In that case Rufflet would be the first Pokemon to look at. I’d also love to hear others’ thoughts on this.

Thanks for reading and I’m looking forward to seeing what other people think of the post-Home meta so far.
 
Hey everyone, the NFE Council will be voting on Ivysaur and Vulpix. Sun has been at the forefront of the metagame since Home dropped, and this is mainly thanks to the release of Ivysaur. Ivysaur has become the best sun sweeper, thanks to amazing coverage in Solarbeam, Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball. That being said, Ivysaur does have a few checks such as Lampent, Carkol, Munchlax, and Sliggoo. Ivysaur is also reliant on Sun being up in order to hit Steel-types. Vulpix is the other mainstay on Sun teams, being the only Pokemon in the tier with access to Drought. Vulpix also provides valuable support in Encore, Hypnosis, Memento, and Will-O-Wisp, providing Sun sweepers with easier switchins and ample setup opportunities. However, the effectiveness of Sun teams can be largely attributed to Ivysaur, as other Sun sweepers lack the same speed tier and coverage that Ivysaur has access to.

The council will discuss Vulpix and Ivysaur and vote this weekend. Votes must be submitted by February Sunday 16th, at 8 PM GMT. Please provide any thoughts you have on Ivysaur and Vulpix in the meantime, so that we can get an idea of where the community stands on Sun.

We’re also looking into Alolan Vulpix, so feel free to provide your thoughts on it as well.
 
Hey everyone, the NFE Council will be voting on Ivysaur and Vulpix. Sun has been at the forefront of the metagame since Home dropped, and this is mainly thanks to the release of Ivysaur. Ivysaur has become the best sun sweeper, thanks to amazing coverage in Solarbeam, Sludge Bomb and Weather Ball. That being said, Ivysaur does have a few checks such as Lampent, Carkol, Munchlax, and Sliggoo. Ivysaur is also reliant on Sun being up in order to hit Steel-types. Vulpix is the other mainstay on Sun teams, being the only Pokemon in the tier with access to Drought. Vulpix also provides valuable support in Encore, Hypnosis, Memento, and Will-O-Wisp, providing Sun sweepers with easier switchins and ample setup opportunities. However, the effectiveness of Sun teams can be largely attributed to Ivysaur, as other Sun sweepers lack the same speed tier and coverage that Ivysaur has access to.

The council will discuss Vulpix and Ivysaur and vote this weekend. Votes must be submitted by February Sunday 16th, at 8 PM GMT. Please provide any thoughts you have on Ivysaur and Vulpix in the meantime, so that we can get an idea of where the community stands on Sun.

We’re also looking into Alolan Vulpix, so feel free to provide your thoughts on it as well.
u mean Drought right?? gen7uu banned drought separately i dont see why we cant.
 
u mean Drought right?? gen7uu banned drought separately i dont see why we cant.
Banning a Pokemon is preferred over banning an ability. Despite them very likely having the same impact on the metagame, the precedent set by Smogon is to avoid "nerfing" Pokemon to keep them balanced in a tier. Only when an ability is uncompetitive (e.g Shadow Tag) or breaks multiple Pokemon should the ability be targetted over the Pokemon.
 
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I'm all for the drought ban but i do worry slightly about removing gloom as it is one of the few things that can possibly guard against certain sets on the very powerful fighting types. However if banning the pokemon is the only way forward with regards to rules and regulations on bans then i still believe it should be done. I don't have any experience with veils in nfe but when i look back at how powerful it was in other tiers especially lc who share the added bulk on pokemon with evio i feel like it may provide problems in time, once optimum teambuilding around it occurs.
 
I'm all for the drought ban but i do worry slightly about removing gloom as it is one of the few things that can possibly guard against certain sets on the very powerful fighting types. However if banning the pokemon is the only way forward with regards to rules and regulations on bans then i still believe it should be done. I don't have any experience with veils in nfe but when i look back at how powerful it was in other tiers especially lc who share the added bulk on pokemon with evio i feel like it may provide problems in time, once optimum teambuilding around it occurs.
Gloom is not being targeted, Ivysaur is the sun sweeper which is being looked at because of its superior coverage and speed stat, making it much harder to switch into and revenge kill, so Gloom will still be around to check said Fighting-types
 
Hey frens, the vote on both Vulpix and Ivysaur has ended, as mentioned by vooper 's post here.

With 7 Ban votes and 1 Abstain vote, :Ivysaur: Ivysaur has been banned from SS NFE.
With 8 Do Not Ban votes, :Vulpix: Vulpix will remain in the NFE tier.

Sun votes.png

Thanks to those who voted, especially those who provided their own reasoning. You can find that in the tab below.
simbo sun reasoning.png

San's sun reasoning.png

crystal sun reasoning.png

SBPC sun reasoning.png

Vooper's sun reasoning.png

Kindly tagging The Immortal to remove Ivysaur from the NFE ladder.
 

PhantomHurious

milk is a juice, spread the word
hi everyone, im sure youre all very disappointed to see that i posted and not someone with actual metagame knowledge but here i am :blobthumbsup:

so after the home drop, the meta has been in a very weird state to say the least. the meta essentially went from fat cors ferro choker type teams to straight ho (veil and sun before the ban) and im glad sun was banned bc it was very clearly broken but i definitely want to shift the attention onto aurora veil now because i feel its by far the most banworthy thing in the meta rn. veil teams for the most part consist of a suicide rocker, alolapix and a bunch of sweepers eg rufflet, tortle, maybe even sd sneasel. the current sweepers and offensive threats we have are super problematic especially in an environment like the one we have rn that essentially reward you for using braindead screens since the mons are stupidly strong. the main culprit of this imo is definitely rufflet. with screens up, rufflet is able to consistently set up bulk up and even agility/sub (to stop twave/burns/knock) to the point where nothing is able to stop it. the fact that pokemon such as piloswine and carkol which should in theory always beat it lose the 1v1 most of the time is just absurd (i'll post calcs at the end of the post). it basically forces you to carry a mare/cors with haze just so u dont get completely 6-0ed. dyna did the exact same thing, gave rufflet an opportunity to set up super easily, and made it super threatening which made defensive haze mons significantly better and much more needed. im not saying veil is the same as dyna or as broken as dyna for that matter, im just trying to show that veil gives rufflet oppotunities to set up that have been deemed banworthy in the past. rufflet is only 1 mon which can terrorize the tier behind screens, theres a plethora of other super threatening mons that can also just go crazy behind screens. wartortle also is super scary after a shell smash and screens basically gives it a free opportunity to do so. after a shell smash, the only thing tortle has to worry about is a. a toxiced linoone which can only kill u after chip and without screens up or b. a haze mare. again in this scenario, you are basically forced to run a haze mare or lose practically ur entire team. with water spout, mare isnt even that big of a problem because +2 spout into regular spout just kills mare anyway so the fact that this mon has barely any answers and can still still break past them is just insane. the only semi reliable switchins to this mon i can think of would be roselia but that mon really isnt very good in this meta and sliggoo which also sucks, both of which lose to ice beam if tortle decides to run that over spout.

scenario: screens set up t1, rufflet comes in t2, pilo/carkol come in t3 trying to counter rufflet
rufflet clicks bulk up t3 on the pilo/carkol switchin then clicks it again t4, giving it +2 in atk and defense
252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rufflet through Reflect: 75-88 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
at this rate rufflet can continue setting up bulk up and roosting up until it reaches stupid heights.

same scenario but with carkol this time
252 Atk Carkol Stone Edge vs. +2 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rufflet through Reflect: 58-70 (20.6 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
even if carkol is running max atk fsr, rufflet wins here unless carkol miraculously gets a burn via flare blitz/flamethrower and mare comes in.
other than veil i would really like to see some discussion on the possible qb or suspect for
,
and
 
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I want to open up to discussion about Sneasel and Gurdurr so this post will most be about that. I know I’ve already made a post on Aurora Veil, but I’d like to quickly say that I mostly agree with Phantom’s post on Veil. To add, the relatively low speed tier of the limited dex means Alola Pix is able to get off Veil with relative ease. Contrary to what I’ve heard from some people, Alola Pix whilst frail isn’t the easiest Pokemon to remove. Moves like Hypnosis and Encore means that Alola Pix can often switch out again and be preserved to setup Veil again in the late game. Aurora Veil forces you to play in a one dimensional way and I find Aurora Veil as an archetype to be pretty uncompetitive as it boosts the power level of multiple setup sweepers making those difficult to evaluate.

:Sneasel: I promise I won’t bore you guys too much with this first point but just quickly for Viper’s (vooper ) sake, I believe that Sneasel falls under the Broken category of tiering policy (defined as: “Elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.”).

Home gave back Sneasel Knock Off, which is a super spammable Dark-type STAB move and returned its ability to break for itself. Choice Band is an extremely potent set right now, as Sneasel is able to spam Knock Off during the early game to cripple common switchins like Gurdurr, Machoke, Piloswine and Mareanie. With the exception of Mareanie which has recovery and Regenerator, the aforementioned checks realistically are unable to switch into more than one attack safely, as the former two do not take kindly to Banded Icicle Crash and Piloswine dislikes Brick Break. Far too often you’re forced to make sacks during the mid to late game, to bring in Gurdurr (easiest example to show the point), which is then forced to Mach Punch or risk being KOed itself. During this turn, Sneasel can easily switch out into something to take a 40 Base Power move.

Offensive counterplay is extremely limited as well due to Sneasel being the fastest unboosted mon in the tier. Whilst it can be revenged by Choice Scarf users and Toxic Orb Linoone fairly easily due to its relatively poor defences, all of these need a free turn to safely switch in and they all take a significant amount of damage from Ice Shard. Furthermore, this is only considering a 1v1 situation; Sneasel currently performs a “hit and run” playstyle extremely effectively using Knock Off to cripple things, switching out and then using either Icicle Crash or Knock Off to clean late game. Whilst its weakness to Stealth Rock limits how often it can do this, it’s still extremely easy to keep around until the late game and very difficult to deal with and punish once itson the field.

:Gurdurr: Again for Viper’s sake, I believe that Gurdurr is very Unhealthy (defined as “Elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.”) for the NFE metagame.

Similar to Sneasel, the re-addition of Knock off to its movepool has bolstered its ability to break past walls for itself or its teammates. Whilst the standard Bulk Up Gurdurr set is unable to beat every one of its supposed “checks and counters”, it can very easily tech for them since it can be very flexible with its last move. Whilst Mach Punch is most common as a means to deal with the ever present Sneasel and occasional Pawniard, other options do exist. Poison Jab can be run to break past Fairy-types such as Clefairy and Togetic, Thunder Punch hits both Flying-types and Mareanie and Taunt stops Strength Sap users such as Galarian Corsola and Gloom from recovering and means they can’t reliable check Gurdurr. I think this versatility makes Gurdurr very difficult to deal with both from a teambuilding aspect and also having to make particular effort to scout out moves within battle (significantly more so with Gurd than with other mons).

Not only is Gurdurr a very potent offensive threat, it has very solid defensive stats overall. The metagame is currently dominated by physical attackers which perfectly suits Gurd’s 85/85 physical bulk and allows for its Bulk Up set to flourish. Its special bulk is decent too, and I’ve had a ton of success with SpDef Gurdurr which is able to take a hit from Specs Haunter and Hattrem and OHKO them. I don’t think that Gurdurr is particularly the best at one thing but there isn’t much reason not to use it. It’s the best Defog because of its typing, the most splashable Sneasel check by far and one of the best setup sweepers in the tier with incredible offensive and defensive pressure. I understand the argument that banning Sneasel will mean there is less of a need to run Gurdurr on every team, and walls like Togetic and Gloom have one less offensive threat to worry about but I think that if we were to ban Sneasel alone, Gurdurr would instead become better. The need to run Mach Punch would decrease meaning it can tech for defensive switch-ins without giving up as much.

TL;DR:
Knock Off has significantly reduced the defensive counterplay for both Sneasel and Gurdurr. I personally think Sneasel should definitely be quickbanned and Gurdurr is at least suspect worthy, and still quickbanworthy in my eyes. Also Aurora Veil’s dumb as well and should go.
 
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