NFE NFE Metagame Discussion

Honestly, I hate that this discussion is even taking place. Not the banning/suspect part since that is needed, but more so deciding which way we wanna die horribly. This trio of dominating mons are viewed by everyone as without a doubt some form of broken/unhealthy and or centralizing. Getting rid of just one makes the other 2 that much worse, until we can get rid of another, and that will also result in that singular mon taking over. So sure we can get rid of pawn but then choke and haunter screw us up even more. Honestly I wholeheartedly believe that all three need to go and leaving any of them left creates a painful meta that is already pretty hard to get into. I dont know much about precedent or tiering rules or whatever but if there was ever a time to invoke something new and ban three mons without 3 separate suspect tests, now should be that time in my opinion.

That being said, the main question is on who should be first to get suspected/banned. So to answer the question, Haunter and Pawn should both go first. The main reason is that Simbo is right in everything that he says. I believe that Haunter needs to go before pawn but the reality is that if Haunter goes, then Pawn has that much of an easier time in the meta, and if Pawn goes first then Haunter has a field day. I was gonna write about how Haunter is much better but the more I heard the arguments for banning Pawn first the more it dawned on me that you really cant ban one without the other. The main reason to even run a sub+willo set was mainly Pawn, and without it in the meta, Haunter is much more inclined to run its specs sets since one of its most prominent checks will be gone. Machoke on the other hand while a pain, can wait for a suspect further down the line since it is by far the most manageable of the three.

tldr: Please ban all three since leaving anyone of these monsters creates a meta centered around whatever is left over. Otherwise Pawniard+Haunter is a great first step.
 

Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
After a having a few discussions with the community and reviewing the current state of the metagame, the council has decided to hold a quickban vote (6/8 votes required for a ban) on both Pawniard and Haunter.

:Pawniard: Pawniard has been a complete menace since the last ban wave, with its Swords Dance set having no issues tearing up many teams. The combination of Knock Off and Sucker Punch let it threaten both defensive walls and faster Pokemon. Defiant also allows Pawniard to easily bypass physical walls such as Gloom and Galarian Corsola which heavily rely on Strength Sap for their recovery. Pawniard isn’t without its checks and counters though, with common Pokemon such as Machoke, Palpitoad, and Trapinch all having ways to deal with it. However, nearly all of Pawniard’s checks and counters have no reliable recovery meaning once they are slightly weakened, Pawniard can easily clean games.

:Haunter: Haunter has consistently been a top tier threat throughout SS NFE with its near unrivaled Speed and Special Attack. This is backed up with an excellent movepool which allows Haunter to dent any team. However, what sets Haunter apart from most Pokemon is its flexibility in its held item. Choice Specs turns Haunter into a devastating Wallbreaker, Choice Scarf makes Haunter a reliable revenge killer and cleaner, and Life Orb functions similarly to its Specs set but has the freedom to swap moves which is deadly. On the other hand, Haunter does have difficulty switching in due to its poor defenses, and common threats such as Galarian Linoone, Klang, and Carkol can either revenge kill it or switch in to take a hit relatively comfortably. However, Haunter’s utility in Will-O-Wisp and Trick allow it to get around some of its counterplay.

The Council will have until Tuesday the 7th of April to make their vote. Your patience has been much appreciated so far.
 

Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
And onto the results:

:Pawniard: Pawniard has been quickbanned. :Haunter: Haunter remains missing the ban by a single vote (6/8 required).

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Massive thanks to the council members who submitted their reasoning and they have my undying respect. They are also cooler than the ones who didn't.
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This ban will NOT affect the current week of OMGS.

Kindly tagging The Immortal to implement this change.
 
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Heyo friends! It has been a while since I was playing continuously. Although I do not have as much time as before I would like to just give some of my thoughs on VR right now after Pawn banning.

I think in a metagame in which KOff is so good (due to Eviolite), constantly spamming KOff is an easy-go and no double-thoughts action. Despite the fact of my deep love for Pawniard with Defiant, I am glad to see a metagame without it. However, this ban also implied an increase of usage of Haunter. Although Pawniard was not a direct counter of Haunter, indirectly you have right now more ease to make Haunter jump in the battle.

In this post my late motiv is to bring some defensively backbone of how counteract Haunter (some counters and checks). With this I am going to say that maybe some rise on these Pokémon could be considered due to the impact that they have/will have in the metagame during the next weeks. Moreover, I would like to tell you that I will edit this post according to your answers or suggestions so please, try to bring your ideas.

First of all the Haunter's set. I think LO and Choice Specs are the ones I will be taking into account due to the offensive pressure they do. However, Choice Scarf is, of course, one to keep in mind but all these counter/checks will work for it too (due to lower power).


1587386092515.png


Haunter @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic / Trick / Substitute​


:Piloswine: Piloswine can take one hit and play roll for the 2HKO. However, it can just bring the KO with Icicle Crash or claim some great damage to the switch-in. However, with stealth rocks is not a check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 237-280 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Machoke: Machoke can survive one Psychic or Dazzling Gleam from Haunter and claim the KO with KOff. Not a counter, not a great check but at full HP it can make Haunter switch out.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 272-322 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 260-308 (112.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Corsola-Galar: Corsola-Galar is just 2HKOed by Shadow Ball and it can do a 3HKO. Moreover, Trick just can make it practically useless. I would say it is a soft check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 240-284 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Corsola-Galar Night Shade vs. 0 HP Haunter: 100-100 (43.2 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:Klang: Klang is a counter to Haunter with its special defensive set. Moreover it can just do a 2HKO to Haunter with Gear Grind. However, it needs Rest to avoid a 3-4HKO and it is easy to play around switching out Haunter. Machoke can jump in and claim with KOff some Eviolite out or just click Close Combat to deal great damage to another Pokémon. Trick also makes it useless. I would say it is a soft counter.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Klang: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Klang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 168-200 (72.7 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Linoone-Galar: Linoone-Galar scares Haunter off with KOff and it can survive 1 Dazzling Gleam. It also outspeeds Haunter but switching-in is only a good decision if you know Haunter's set and if it is Choice Scarf/Specs in which move it is locked on. We coud consider it as a soft check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Linoone-Galar: 238-282 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Linoone-Galar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 396-468 (171.4 - 202.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Wartortle: Wartortle can barely survive one hit from Haunter and it can claim a 2-3HKO to Haunter. I do not think overall that is a check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 156-184 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Wartortle Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 97-115 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:Carkol: Special defensive Carkol can take 3 hits from Haunter but depending on the set it just can do some damage (Rock Blast).

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Carkol: 109-129 (30 - 35.5%) -- 24.4% chance to 3HKO
8 Atk Carkol Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 102-126 (44.1 - 54.5%) -- approx. 30.9% chance to 2HKO

:Ferroseed: Ferroseed would seem a good check/counter to Haunter when special defensive invested. However, it is practically a 3HKO and it needs Leech Seed to do some HP recovery. Furthermore, Ferro is useless with Evio tricked out. THus, I will consider it as a check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 96-114 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 177-208 (76.6 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Palpitoad: Palpitoad if it has a good special defense investment can be 3HKO by Haunter. However, if it is the physical defensive set it is a 2HKO easily. On the other hand, Palpi will need 2-3 Scalds to claim the KO.

:Roselia: Special defensive Roselia can take some Shadow Ball and Dazzling Gleam but Trick is annoying and Sludge Wave is a 3HKO. If Haunter is running Psychic then it is a 2HKO. Roselia with Giga Drain or Sludge Bomb cannot do anything practically.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 150-178 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
8 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 66-78 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

:Brionne: Brione is 3HKOed by Haunter's Sludge Wave and it can claim a 2HKO with Scald. Some special defensive sets with some Trapping strategy do not work at all due to the 3HKO.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Brionne: 118-139 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Brionne Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 127-151 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Munchlax: Special defensive Munchlax's set cannot do any attack to Haunter (due to Body Slam). Athough with Fire Punch could claim a 3HKO. Haunter can trick its Eviolite making the 4HKO to a 3HKO with Sludge Wave. Thus, we could conclude that Munchlax is a counter.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 115-136 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Munchlax Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 89-105 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:Vullaby: Vullaby with special defense investment and Eviolite can be hurt due to Stealth Rock and then it is a 2HKO-3HKO with Dazzling Gleam and Sludge Wave.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 152-180 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
8 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 246-290 (106.4 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Shellos: Shellos can keep its Eviolite with Sticky Hold ability and it is a 3HKO with Sludge Wave. However, hazards and poison can provoke a 2HKO on it. Scald can cause a 3HKO on Haunter. Furthermore, Shellos could be considered a soft counter.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Shellos: 138-163 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Shellos Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 90-106 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:Sliggoo: Sliggoo with special defensive investment and Curse's set with Outrage can take 2-3 hits from Haunter (check). However, Outrage could provoke a KO on Haunter with 2 hits.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 52+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 126-150 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Sliggoo Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 190-225 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With that I extract from these calcs that there are three counters: Klang, Munchlax and Shellos. As checks we have basically Linoone-Galar (although softish), Sliggoo and Ferroseed. But if you add Machoke to the Haunter's specs set, you can play around all these checks and counters pretty easily. In my opinoin, both Haunter and Machoke are a good core that help each other overcoming the defensive backbones and they have high utility with both Trick and KOff.

Just watching VRs right now the only two Pokémon that could deserve a raise in these conditions would be Munchlax from B- to B and Shellos from C to C+.

Hope you find it useful and moving to start a discussion. In my opinion Haunter would deserve a suspect (not only a Council voting) due to the fact that has poor counterpart in the tier currently (with Pawniard having been banned).
 

Kaif

Banned deucer.
Heyo friends! It has been a while since I was playing continuously. Although I do not have as much time as before I would like to just give some of my thoughs on VR right now after Pawn banning.

I think in a metagame in which KOff is so good (due to Eviolite), constantly spamming KOff is an easy-go and no double-thoughts action. Despite the fact of my deep love for Pawniard with Defiant, I am glad to see a metagame without it. However, this ban also implied an increase of usage of Haunter. Although Pawniard was not a direct counter of Haunter, indirectly you have right now more ease to make Haunter jump in the battle.

In this post my late motiv is to bring some defensively backbone of how counteract Haunter (some counters and checks). With this I am going to say that maybe some rise on these Pokémon could be considered due to the impact that they have/will have in the metagame during the next weeks. Moreover, I would like to tell you that I will edit this post according to your answers or suggestions so please, try to bring your ideas.

First of all the Haunter's set. I think LO and Choice Specs are the ones I will be taking into account due to the offensive pressure they do. However, Choice Scarf is, of course, one to keep in mind but all these counter/checks will work for it too (due to lower power).


View attachment 238578

Haunter @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic / Trick / Substitute​


:Piloswine: Piloswine can take one hit and play roll for the 2HKO. However, it can just bring the KO with Icicle Crash or claim some great damage to the switch-in. However, with stealth rocks is not a check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 237-280 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Machoke: Machoke can survive one Psychic or Dazzling Gleam from Haunter and claim the KO with KOff. Not a counter, not a great check but at full HP it can make Haunter switch out.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 272-322 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 260-308 (112.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Corsola-Galar: Corsola-Galar is just 2HKOed by Shadow Ball and it can do a 3HKO. Moreover, Trick just can make it practically useless. I would say it is a soft check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Corsola-Galar: 240-284 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Corsola-Galar Night Shade vs. 0 HP Haunter: 100-100 (43.2 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:Klang: Klang is a counter to Haunter with its special defensive set. Moreover it can just do a 2HKO to Haunter with Gear Grind. However, it needs Rest to avoid a 3-4HKO and it is easy to play around switching out Haunter. Machoke can jump in and claim with KOff some Eviolite out or just click Close Combat to deal great damage to another Pokémon. Trick also makes it useless. I would say it is a soft counter.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Klang: 96-114 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Klang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 168-200 (72.7 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Linoone-Galar: Linoone-Galar scares Haunter off with KOff and it can survive 1 Dazzling Gleam. It also outspeeds Haunter but switching-in is only a good decision if you know Haunter's set and if it is Choice Scarf/Specs in which move it is locked on. We coud consider it as a soft check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Linoone-Galar: 238-282 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Linoone-Galar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 396-468 (171.4 - 202.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Wartortle: Wartortle can barely survive one hit from Haunter and it can claim a 2-3HKO to Haunter. I do not think overall that is a check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 156-184 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Wartortle Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 97-115 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:Carkol: Special defensive Carkol can take 3 hits from Haunter but depending on the set it just can do some damage (Rock Blast).

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Carkol: 109-129 (30 - 35.5%) -- 24.4% chance to 3HKO
8 Atk Carkol Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 102-126 (44.1 - 54.5%) -- approx. 30.9% chance to 2HKO

:Ferroseed: Ferroseed would seem a good check/counter to Haunter when special defensive invested. However, it is practically a 3HKO and it needs Leech Seed to do some HP recovery. Furthermore, Ferro is useless with Evio tricked out. THus, I will consider it as a check.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 96-114 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 177-208 (76.6 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Palpitoad: Palpitoad if it has a good special defense investment can be 3HKO by Haunter. However, if it is the physical defensive set it is a 2HKO easily. On the other hand, Palpi will need 2-3 Scalds to claim the KO.

:Roselia: Special defensive Roselia can take some Shadow Ball and Dazzling Gleam but Trick is annoying and Sludge Wave is a 3HKO. If Haunter is running Psychic then it is a 2HKO. Roselia with Giga Drain or Sludge Bomb cannot do anything practically.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 150-178 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
8 SpA Roselia Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 66-78 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

:Brionne: Brione is 3HKOed by Haunter's Sludge Wave and it can claim a 2HKO with Scald. Some special defensive sets with some Trapping strategy do not work at all due to the 3HKO.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Brionne: 118-139 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Brionne Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 127-151 (54.9 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Munchlax: Special defensive Munchlax's set cannot do any attack to Haunter (due to Body Slam). Athough with Fire Punch could claim a 3HKO. Haunter can trick its Eviolite making the 4HKO to a 3HKO with Sludge Wave. Thus, we could conclude that Munchlax is a counter.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 115-136 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Munchlax Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 89-105 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:Vullaby: Vullaby with special defense investment and Eviolite can be hurt due to Stealth Rock and then it is a 2HKO-3HKO with Dazzling Gleam and Sludge Wave.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 152-180 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
8 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 246-290 (106.4 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Shellos: Shellos can keep its Eviolite with Sticky Hold ability and it is a 3HKO with Sludge Wave. However, hazards and poison can provoke a 2HKO on it. Scald can cause a 3HKO on Haunter. Furthermore, Shellos could be considered a soft counter.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Shellos: 138-163 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Shellos Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Haunter: 90-106 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:Sliggoo: Sliggoo with special defensive investment and Curse's set with Outrage can take 2-3 hits from Haunter (check). However, Outrage could provoke a KO on Haunter with 2 hits.

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 52+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 126-150 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Sliggoo Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 190-225 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With that I extract from these calcs that there are three counters: Klang, Munchlax and Shellos. As checks we have basically Linoone-Galar (although softish), Sliggoo and Ferroseed. But if you add Machoke to the Haunter's specs set, you can play around all these checks and counters pretty easily. In my opinoin, both Haunter and Machoke are a good core that help each other overcoming the defensive backbones and they have high utility with both Trick and KOff.

Just watching VRs right now the only two Pokémon that could deserve a raise in these conditions would be Munchlax from B- to B and Shellos from C to C+.

Hope you find it useful and moving to start a discussion. In my opinion Haunter would deserve a suspect (not only a Council voting) due to the fact that has poor counterpart in the tier currently (with Pawniard having been banned).
you do miss wisphex haunter in the post but nonetheless shellos (and klang if ur lucky with sleep talk) is the only "true" counter to haunter since it can't be tricked, while munchlax gets tricked and becomes useless. Alongside wisp and hex doing unreal amounts of damage to other checks it is obvious that you have to play near perfectly for haunter to not kill multiple mons or weaken the entire team with ease for something like wartortle to clean up.
 
hi its the ceo of not playing the meta for months then randomly dropping a post with no meta knowledge! :psyglad:



this mon is so unhealthy and just terrible for the tier honestly. 80%+ usage is absolutely ridiculous and shouldnt be ok in any metagame. the fact it has quite literally no counters and no real drawback in spamming facade/cc/knock with forb is just dumb. if im remembering correctly, mime had very similar usage during its short stay here which just further shows how stupid that figure really is. the main problem i have with machoke is the fact that it pairs well with quite literally everything in the metagame like i genuinely cant see many mons in a tier that pairs badly with choker at all. you can put it with anything in the tier and it will literally tear shit up with no mercy. the fact that you can use this mon with spikes and wishpass and with forb is genuinely filthy, 0 counters whatsoever and gets longevity, nothing in the tier is stopping that at all and thats not even like this is me saying "yeah this is what you CAN do with choker" this is exactly what happens with this mon all the time and its just dumb. its the only mon in the metagame that is insanely good regardless of whether youre using it offensively or defensively bar maybe pilo. evio choker isnt a set ive mentioned here much but holy shit is it stupid. the bulk you get from evio is just insane and u still keep that dumb atk and coverage but now u can pair it with like a wish clef and just not die at all. there is absolutely 110% no reason to not have this beast on your team. i really just want this stupid busted pos mon suspected AT LEAST. i dont see any reason whatsoever for having this mon in the tier still, its wayyy too centralizing and is not good for the tier in any way. it takes out the skill element of the game and its just lol i have a choker and u have no counters so watch me tear ur team to shreads with facade gg

A+

:Hattrem: Hattrem - abso-fucking-lutely, i dont even need to explain this one hattchoke is a stupid core
:Klang: Klang - also links well w machoke, renders its main counter in gloom completely useless
:Linoone-Galar: Linoone-Galar - abso-fucking-lutely
:Piloswine: Piloswine - links very nicely with machoke, provides rocks and can finish off opposing haunters w ice shard


A

:Corsola-Galar: Corsola-Galar - links pretty nicely, cors as a whole isnt anything spectacular rn as far as ive seen but it gives rocks and really nice chip to the whole tier, burn is also rlly appreciated for choker longevity
:Gloom: Gloom - gloom is the only mon in these tiers that i think doesnt pair very well with machoke.


A-

:Carkol: Carkol - super nice with choker, gives hazard support and boom provides much needed momentum so forb choker can come in easily and tear shit up w hazards up
:Clefairy: Clefairy - wishpasses into forb choker and w teleport its a clean pass with no chip, so sexy.
:Roselia: Roselia - forb choker on spikes LOOOOOOOOOOL
:Wartortle: Wartortle - choker legit just clicks facade until this mon wins w smash ez pz.

other than choker, i really really really wanna see ppls opinion on mons like haunt since it seems like the 2nd most unhealthy mon in the tier, thanks for reading kek
 
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After the ban of Pawniard, Haunter is more of a threat than ever, and pretty bonkers in an unhealthy way. Being able to outspeed most pokemon in the meta while having the ability to 3hko everyone in the meta, immunity to hazards beside Stealth Rock, and having various sets to beat its check is a big problem in itself. Haunter’s unpredictable and no real counters makes me believe he should be suspected when it’s possible. But now I want to discuss a bit about Haunter’s set and how people dealt with it.

Haunter’s most common set Specs makes it able to 3HKO everyone and put it in a 50/50 mindgame situation for so many players. It’s really a frustrating situation if you make one mistake, you could potentially lose the entire game.
How people adapted to this is having a Dark/Normal covering Ghost STAB, with another Ground/Ghost/Steel to cover Poison STAB. Core examples such as Linoone-Galar with Klang/Piloswine/Corsola. Having mild checks such as Brionne, Carkol and Roselia that can kill it back helps too. All this has been an effective way to stop Haunter from causing rampage. However he has the option of crippling the checks or outright 2hko'ing them as Haunter can freely run various different moves in its 3rd and 4th slots. The main point is Specs Haunter forces bulky/balance teams to run cores I mentioned above in order to stop it from abusing its STAB moves.


Scarf Haunter is less used in favour for Specs but it’s still a solid option in the meta. Being able to outspeed Sun teams, +2 Wartortle and Klang, Linoone and Haunter itself makes it a solid revenge killer. Scarf is less used for a reason through. The meta has been prepared against Specs, so in the process it hurts scarf because of the similarity of the checks. But it’s still a threat and adds the unpredictability of Haunter.


Will-o-Wisp Hex Haunter just adds the icing on the cake for me. Being able to cripple your physical mons checks and beat them makes me believe Haunter has no real counters. It’s also very underused in the meta, so I can’t speak from my experience how to deal against it. It makes me believe Haunter has no real counter.


As much I think Haunter is a big issue right now, I don’t think it’s the best nfe pokemon. I think there is one more pokemon that bothers me. You know it, it’s the man that holds your team together Machoke!


Machoke is the #1 most centralizing pokemon in the current meta. His wide movepool lets him have a near unresisted moveset and I believe he is the best utility pokemon in the current meta. It is mandatory to have on your team. It’s unhealthy and I think Machoke is more broken in a sense of flexibility right now. But first I want to go through my claim over Machoke having the best utility in the current meta.

Bulky Attacker Machoke
  • Its bulk and offensive power let him tank a hit from everyone, while being able to get rid of your eviolite, or even KO you before you can do anything against him.. This makes him the best Early-game lead.
  • A good offensive pivot due to his bulk and hard switching moveset, meaning he can also fulfill the role of a wallbreaker. A good Momentum Changer in Mid-game.
  • Bullet Punch lets him act as a decent cleaner in End-game.
  • Guts let him be a status absorber and supports his wallbreaking role.

Physical Defense Machoke
  • A strong tank/nearly a wall towards the relevant physical attackers.
  • Great Early-game lead due to its bulk and knock off/dynamic punch confusion.
  • Defense pivot with some offense presence. Makes him good in Mid-Game.

Flame Orb Machoke
  • A sweeping wallbreaker that is able to 2hko almost everyone in the meta. Beating its checks like Gloom, Mareanie, Fairies and Dartrix.
  • Able to destroy defensive teams, arguably a stallbreaker.
  • Being able to outspeed a lot of nfe mons and having priority makes him scary in Mid/Late-Game cleaner.

Looking from the analysis, this allows Machoke to have offensive/defensive roles in early, mid and late game. You can argue his defensive roles are rather unreliable and not having any type of hazards is a legit argument against a role of being the best utility mon in nfe.
But in a meta when the offensive and bulky playstyle are dominating, the flexibility in offensive roles, and the fact he has some defensive presence let him have so many types of roles that he has the best utility in the game.
Other things I didn’t mention is that he can act as a sweeper thanks to bulk up, and have very niche moves like screens/toxic as support for your team.


One thing I don’t see people mention a lot is that Machoke holds the tier together. The physical mons such as Piloswine, Klang, and Linoone tremendously limits the teambuilding and they have a huge usage in the meta.
Pilo’s a rocker that forces every defog pokemon out, Klang can sweep with both offensive and defensive sets, Linoone is the most used Haunter check etc. There are some pokemon like Corsola, Palpitoad and Shellos that can tank them, but they lack consistency and the current meta isn’t so nice toward the first two (Looking at you Shittrem).
On the other hand Machoke hard-checks all of them with its physical defensive and bulky attacker sets more consistently. But it comes to a point every team needs a Machoke in their team. Add the utility part and how Machoke holds this tier makes you feel like he is mandatory for your team. And the current meta shows that every good team has a machoke in it. Hell, Physdef Machoke is used to beat the other Machoke sets.


It’s borderline centralizing in the meta and in teambuilding. Machoke should definitely be suspected, or even quickbanned. I’m really tired of seeing it in every team, and I’m tired of dealing with the Dynamic Punch set. However we should also look out for other threats like Piloswine once Machoke will get banned. But I hope Machoke is looked more into because I think he deserves to get banned for how over-centralizing he is in the current meta. Maybe more than Haunter.

I’d love to discuss other pokemons, but it would drag this post as it is already. So I’ll write a new post for another day.

Thanks Crystalites for the grammar check :)
 
Last edited:

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
Gonna give my thoughts on Haunter vs Machoke and do some DLC speculation. Gonna preface this by saying that I won't really discuss what these mons do much, what they 2HKO, OHKO etc because people have already done so and I think everyone knows what Haunter and Machoke do at this point.

I think Haunter is the better pre-DLC suspect, if any, than Machoke. Haunter is far more difficult to check both offensively and defensively, and set versatility always makes checks shaky at best, and means you have to stack multiple on a team to adequately cover for all potential Haunter sets. Even though Machoke has set versatility too, it's always going to be limited by its Speed, which will become more significant post-DLC.

Both are objectively suspectworthy in the current meta, no doubt about that. Shing also made a really solid point about Machoke's centralisation being due to both its offensive and defensive presence; it's one of the only Pokemon capable of soft or hard checking the likes of Piloswine, Klang, Gloon etc depending on spread, while still applying offensive pressure without being a big momentum sink. However, with DLC a month away, there are a decent number of Pokemon (Seadra, Slowpoke, Fletch, Marill etc) coming back, which can be used to check Machoke, offensively pressure it, or check Pokemon that Machoke's defensive utility is needed for rn. You could argue that future updates shouldn't be used as arguments for current decisions, and normally I'd agree, but when there's two valid suspect choices here, it makes sense imo to pick the one which is suspectworthy rn and has the lower chance of becoming 'balanced' or less oppressive by close future changes, especially when opportunities for retests are so limited by shit.

There's an almost 100% chance that Chansey and Magneton will be QBed. From what is confirmed so far, nothing offensively pressures Haunter except Aqua Jet Marill and full health Fletch, and there are no Mons so far that offer anything defensively over what we currently have. There are decent odds that DLC will give us something that can be good defensively or offensively vs Haunter, but I can't think of any Pokemon that could turn Haunter from objectively suspectworthy into a good but healthy threat. Machoke has a higher chance of becoming less oppressive post-DLC; we will get Mons which somewhat fill the 200-300 Speed void rn and can offensively pressure it and Mons which check Pokemon you need Machoke for.

Another argument that can be made against Machoke is the fact that Haunter is seen as the bigger threat building-wise. As Shing already stated, people are running cores designed to be immune to atleast one if not both of Haunter's STABs and are running secondary or even tertiary Spdef walls in case one gets Tricked early game or broken through. These mons have checking utility and usefulness outside of Haunter too, but Haunter is a fairly big reason for stacking special checks. This opens up the gates for strong physical attackers to plough through teams. If Haunter was to be suspected and banned, people would in theory be able to dedicate more slots to Machoke. That could still be super centralising, but I'd rather wait and see if that is the case instead of assuming so.

Overall, I'd say Haunter is the better suspect because DLC has a better chance of making Machoke less centralising. Not much is lost by waiting to see if DLC makes Machoke less broken/centralising, although I suppose you could make the same argument for Haunter too. The Dynamic Punch uncompetitive argument stays valid regardless of what meta Choke is in though.

DLC Speculation

We haven't seen many NFE's and LC's confirmed yet, just what was seen in the trailer, but I think the mons showed so far look very interesting for NFE. Gonna rank them VR style in relation to each other, not to the current VR.

QB worthy

:chansey: Chansey
:magneton: Magneton

I doubt either are surviving. They both look far too insane.

S rank

:magnemite: Magnemite - Baby Mag might get overlooked for a bit cause of its Evo, but I think, once Ton goes, it has massive potential. Specs Analytic hits hard as fuck, even being able to chunk probably its best walls in Mons like Spdef Rose pretty well. No current Ground Type can/wants to tank Flash Cannon. Its bad Speed tier isn't that bad in SWSH, although needing Timid to outspeed Ada Choke sucks. Add on the fact that a decent number of current special walls are either Water/Flying types or unable to block Volt and free momentum. I think Magnemite has the most potential out of all the so-far revealed mons, a good hard hitting Volt Switch user is such a nice addition to the tier. It might even make Trap come back again.

A rank

:seadra: Seadra - Seadra has a really nice Speed tier and a good defensive stat. As a non-Specs special attacker, I think it will be outclassed by Wartortle excpet for niche CritDra sets, but I think Seadra has pretty solid potential to be a 'fast' physical wall which hits reasonably hard even when uninvested. It can check current top threats like Machoke, Piloswine, Klang and threaten back. Specs will probably be decent too, good Speed tier, 95 SpA, decent coverage. Looks interesting.

252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Seadra: 90-106 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (90, 91, 91, 93, 94, 94, 96, 97, 99, 99, 100, 102, 102, 103, 105, 106)
252+ Atk Choice Band Piloswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Seadra: 112-133 (35.6 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (112, 114, 115, 117, 118, 120, 120, 121, 123, 124, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133)

:gastly: Gastly - Not a DLC mon but still an interesting one. If Haunter does get axed, I'm very interested to see how far Gastly will rise. It will definitely be shitter post-DLC than pre, due to the likes of Seadra and Fletch coming back. It also suffers from being slower than Pikachu, Torracat, Raboot etc and not being able to pull off the WilloHex set nearly as well as Haunter, if at all, due to shitter bulk, but defensively Modest Specs Gastly will apply virtually the same amount of pressure on teams as Timid Specs Haunter. If Haunter goes, Gastly will definitely become a notable threat.

B rank

:fletchinder: Fletchinder - Fletch could be cool. Good speed tier, decent typing, it can be a reasonable Choke check if invested and Rocks aren't up. Hattrem existing as a good MBounce user makes Fletch based teams something that could be interesting to explore, we will see.

:marill: Marill - It's unfortunate that powercreep and speed is so poor in NFE rn that even Marill looks decent, but it seems fairly interesting for the meta. NFE currently has zero physically offensive Fairy-types and only one physical water in the niche physical SS tort. Marill unfortunately has to go Jolly to outspeed Ada Pilo and Choke, but Band hits pretty hard and it has prio and decent coverage. The Perish Song Whirlpool set also looks interesting, not sure what it could trap rn but it could be decent.

:slowpoke: Slowpoke - Being the best Pilo check in the game is enough for B, but it can also check the likes of Klang and Wartortle, which is nice. NFE has a pretty big abundance of Water types, but Regen is enough of a niche over the others defensively to be worthwhile.

C rank

:larvesta: Larvesta - Sorry UOP but this looks p ass.

:zorua: Zorua - Illusion NP with decent spa and speed could be ok, but I doubt it.

D rank

:psyduck: Psyduck
:rockruff: Rockruff
:happiny: Happiny

????? rank

Kubfu - Kubfu will probably be almost completely outclassed by Machoke while Choke's around, but if/when Choke goes, it'll be interesting to see what Kubs like. Could be a cool addition.
 
Unpopular opinion incoming

I believe that banning Haunter and/or Machoke would not be good for the meta. It is relatively healthy in my opinion compared to some of the others, and I predict that banning Haunter and/or Machoke will bring it out of its relative balance. I will provide detailed reasoning below for the following statements. First of all, while not in large numbers, both Haunter and Machoke have checks. A lot of these checks can easily be fit onto a team for multiple reasons and can fulfill other roles than just checking them. There has also been a snowball effect where we ban the top threats, only to cause new top threats to emerge. I can easily see the banning of Machoke and/or Haunter in turn making a lot of mons susceptible to bans. On top of that, as Simbo mentioned, the DLC will bring new threats as well as new answers to threats and it's definitely a possibility that they balance out the current meta while not being broken themselves.

:Roselia: spdef Roselia is a popular check to Haunter as well as other special attackers and can provide valuable hazard support while ohko'ing Haunter with Extrasensory. It takes less than half from Shadow Ball and can safely Synthesize (only 80% of the time though: it can still live a second Shadow Ball, even after a spdef drop, but this can leave Roselia in a precarious position. The Haunter also has to pick Shadow Ball, which isn't guaranteed)

:Carkol: Similar to Roselia, it has hazard support and its spdef set can easily live two Shadow Balls and ohko with Heat Crash, which Carkol usally carries anyway for Hattrem.

:Klang: imo Klang is the most reliable check on this list. Only Shadow Ball does decent damage and there is no possibilty of a spdef drop. Its Resttalk set can then turn Haunter into setup fodder, which is pretty impressive. Its moveset is also great for subhex Haunter.

:Sliggoo: Sliggoo is kinda slept on as a special wall, likely because of its limited offensive presence and lack of good recovery. It can still definitely pull off a resttalk set against Haunter as even a high-roll D-Gleam does 37%.

:Hakamo-o:/:Applin: While not usally Haunter checks, they can force choiced Haunter to switch out if it locked itself into Shadow Ball (or Sludge Bomb, since some people carry that). It also helps that Shadow Ball is usally the best option against most of its checks. (Fun fact: banded Sucker Punch from an Applin ohko's Haunter, although that doesn't mean I recommend Applin.)

:Ferroseed: A good defensive mon in general and can hit back with Knock Off. Higher spdef than Rose, but worse recovery. Also helps that it's a steel type, which means that only Shadow Ball is going to do significant damage.

:Brionne: Another Resttalker with good spdef. Nothing amazing, but having options helps.

:Hattrem: Hattrem can be used as a surprise check because spdef Hattrem takes almost 80% from a high roll Shadow Ball. If Hattrem has enough health left, it can come in on a sweeping Haunter, which will never expect you living a Shadow Ball and will likely not switch out. Can only switch in on Sludge Wave which usally isn't a good idea anyway.

:Linoone-Galar: Normal types are strong in general, because of the obvious immunity to Haunter's most reliable move. Unfortunately, right now Linoone is the only relevant normal type (although Tranquill and Bunnelby are a bit unexplored). Having a Normal and Steel-type on your team is hell for Haunter, not that it's required. Its also one of the few things that outspeeds Haunter and just really good in general thanks to STAB Knock Off and pivoting possibilities.

I would also like to mention that Pawniard was a great check, but was obviously banned (not saying for no reason btw) being the only mon to resist both STAB's. It just goes to show that banning top threats almost always opens the door to new ones.

If you know of any Haunter checks that you think work or that I missed, be sure to let me know. Also, I am aware I kinda neglected Scarf and subhex Haunter, but they're less of a problem. I'm sure some people are going to mention that Trick can ruin your walls, and while this is correct, at the same time, the wall becomes less necessary since Haunter has now lost its choice item. It's also not living any meaningful hits because of its bad bulk despite its newly acquired eviolite.

:Koffing: A good Machoke check because of its ability. Both Resttalk and Guts Machoke heavily rely on their ability. Forb Machoke does, however, usally carry Facade to be able to hit it. This is still only a 3-hit ko and not an automatic loss for Koffing, but Machoke does have the upper hand in that case. Koffing can also be useful for other things such as T-spikes.

:Clefairy:/:Togetic: These two do a decent job if the Machoke in question doesn't carry Heavy Slam, although it usally does. Koffing and the fairies together do severly limit Machoke's moveslot options. Without both Heavy Slam and Facade, it could very well get walled. (cc and knock are mandatory, so that only leaves two moves) They also completely wall Resttalk Machoke, because it doesn't and shouldn't carry steel-type moves.

:Corsola-Galar: While it's risky for Corsola to come in on Knock Off if not on full health, it can easily beat Machoke 1v1 thanks to Strength Sap. It will, however, usally switch out, but you can definitely wear it down using Galarsola.

:Dartrix: I've seen this thing live hits I was sure it would go down to. Just give this thing enough speed to outspeed Jolly Machoke and click Brave Bird after switching it in to a Knock Off. Roost will allow you to survive against non-Forb variants. it should be noted that I have seen the occasional Ice Punch Machoke, so be careful nonetheless. Defog and Swords Dance will also allow you to turn Machoke into setup or support fodder.

:Vullaby: Vullaby is similar to Dartrix, but it can also use Weak Armor to get a boon from getting knocked. Doing this in the lategame can lead to a (reverse) sweep. If you use defensive Vullaby though, be careful when you roost to avoid taking a SE cc.

:Gloom: It can barely live a Knock Off and a Facade coming from a Forb Machoke and Sap it in return. With rocks up, it comes down to a roll. This means that if Gloom takes any sort of damage, it will have trouble checking Machoke, not to mention it usally switches out after seeing Gloom at full health. It does reliably wall non-Forb chokes with ease. Something that can live two hits from Forb choke (only with eviolite intact the first turn) is still pretty valuable.

As with the Haunter checks, we also banned a potential Machoke check in Rufflet. (again, not for no reason) Unlike Pawn, I don't think this would have had a big impact on Machoke though.

Other things I didn’t mention is that he can act as a sweeper thanks to bulk up, and have very niche moves like screens/toxic as support for your team.
btw don't worry about the niche Machokes mentioned here, practically no one but me and Shing himself use those :) also spdef Choke best Choke

As I mentioned in the beginning, there has been a snowball effect going on for a while now. As far as I can tell, this is a very concise overview of what transpired so far:

Home released => a lot of mons got buffed (mostly by getting Knock Off or Toxic) => Gurdurr got stronger (also rip Ivysaur)
Gurdurr got banned => no more Mach Punch => Pawniard got stronger
Pawniard got banned => no one resists both Haunter stabs and less Sucker Punch => Haunter got stronger
now people want Haunter banned (and also Machoke which was somehow used more after the Pawniard ban, even though Machoke was used as a Pawn check)

There are currently a lot of mons being kept in check by Haunter and Machoke, and banning either or both of them will cause a lot of mons to get significantly better in the meta, up to the point where they may be considered banworthy in turn. These are some of the ones I think will have a field day. I will have definitely missed something since there are obviously a lot of mons that will be influenced by this. I will limit myself to what I think are the most relevant profiters from these potential bans:

:Linoone-Galar: Usally had to P-shot in fear when the inevitable Machoke was on the field, while with it gone, it can more easily use offensive sets and can often stay in and attack. Haunter leaving would remove its main boon, but I believe that it would get better overall. We might even see a return of Soundproof Hakamo-o.

:Piloswine: This is the one that most people are scared of, but doesn't benefit nearly as much as Klang imo. While being a lot more careless, there are still a lot of mons that easily wall it: Bronzor, Wartortle, Shellos, Dottler, Shelmet (those last three all have recover along with favorable typing). It could start running Toxic to deal with this (except for Bronzor ofc), but then it'd have to give up either Stealth Rock or Ice Shard, not to mention that you could easily run rest on something. Pilo would be difficult to break, but easy to wall. This also means it would remain to be an excellent rocker.

:Klang: Okay, so Klang is already quite powerful, being both an amazing wall and a terrifying setup sweeper. (when it hits, at least) Usually
it has to wait for Machoke to die or be weakened enough to start sweeping, since the opponent doesn't usally have much answers to ShiftGrind and even less to offensive sets. This could lead to a drastic increase in Palpitoad (and maybe even Wooper) usage. Since Klang is usally viewed as a check more so than an offensive threat (even though it's both), it could become very dangerous.

:Pikachu:Being a glass cannon, its biggest problem is getting outsped, since it can easily kill things with Volt Tackle or pivot out with Volt Switch. Haunter leaving would mean only Drakloak, Linoone, Raboot and Diglett outspeed it, with only Linoone and Raboot being relevant.

:Duosion: When setting up with Duosion, you have to guess if your opponent will go into Haunter or a knocker. Removing Haunter would make this guessing game a lot easier since Acid Armor would the best option in most cases.

:Clefairy:/:Togetic: Having the best poison-type attacker removed helps them immensely. The fact that Roselia and Gloom usally run defensive ev's is also a great boon, but with Haunter and Machoke removed, they could easily start running offensive sets. They had a favorable mu against Machoke in theory, but Forb could just outspeed and kill them with Heavy Slam.

:Corsola-Galar: Okay, people are sleeping on the best wall in the tier. This thing handles physical attackers with ease thanks to Strength Sap, can spread status, and can break setup mons with Haze and Night Shade. One of its biggest problems, however, is that it has a bad matchup against a lot of the top threats, most notably Haunter, which is of course a special attacker. Removing Haunter would leave precious little good Ghost and Dark-type special attackers. Simply put, this amazing wall would get even better, with almost no physical attackers posing a threat.

:Dusclops: Also a bulky ghost, but not as good as Corsola. Would still definitely get better in a meta without Haunter.

:Scraggy: While not a top threat yet, Scraggy would get a lot out of these potential bans. From my experience, the top 3 ways to fail a Scraggy sweep are 1: Machoke (both Forb and Resttalk are dangerous for different reasons), 2: D-Gleam Haunter and 3: Super Luck Togetic. The top two causes disappearing would make setup sets more viable.

Stall in general would also be better, which should come as no surprise upon two of the best wallbreakers leaving the tier. I personally don't mind this, but a lot of other people hate stall. (fsr, it's fun)

In his post, Simbo mentioned Chansey and Magneton and how they would likely be quickbanned. Imo, there is a decent chance they would fit in the meta, as well as bring some balance to it. I will give my brief opinion on how I think the two current threats and two future threats would influence the meta, as well some other influential mons:

:Haunter: Haunter would definitely not like the inclusion of the new threats. Being a normal and steel-type, there are more opportunities for teams to have at least one of each on a team, which isn't great for Haunter , as I already mentioned. I don't think I have to explain why Chansey existing is bad for Haunter in general. It still isn't completely helpless as tricking it will likely severely cripple it.

:Machoke: It would most likely become even better, keeping both of the new threats in check. Close Combat from Forb Machoke will ohko Chansey while bulky Machoke can invest enough spdef to live Magneton's Thunderbolt and hit back with CC or Dyna Punch. It should also be noted that there will be a lot of new mons that outspeed Machoke in the DLC, limiting its sweeping potential even more.

:Chansey:Chansey is a bipolar mon in theory, being practically imune to special hits but very weak to physical ones. However, because of this immense spdef stat, it can easily invest everything into HP and defense, making it still tough to kill for physical attackers in practice. It can also spread status, set up rocks and heal its own status by switching out, giving it notoriety as a very frustrating mon. Despite this, it can still definitely be dealt with. Apart from physical fighting types like Machoke, Hakamo-o and Scraggy, some mons can easily run coverage that deals with it, like Superpower Zweilous,Piloswine and Trapinch (Arena Trap is also great for it) or Brick Break Pikachu. On top of that, some special attackers can definitely take it down too, like Mareanie or Duosion.

:Magneton: While it can run other sets, most people seem to be scared of Specs Analytic, which hits really hard. However, it got nerfed by Hidden Power getting removed. HP Grass was perfect for most of its checks, making Magneton really good, but now it gets walled by spdef Palp, spdef Charjabug and Chinchou, with Goldeen, Electrike, Pikachu and even Wooper also being able to check it. Not to mention the big egg mentioned above. Revenge-killing it shouldn't prove too difficult either, not just with fast ground types like Drilbur or Vibrava, but also things like Machoke or Fraxure. If they move first, they ko. If Mag moves first, no Analytic boost, so outbulking it is possible, albeit hard. Its Specs set also gets punished severely by Trapinch because of the potential T-bolt lock.

:Magnemite: I don't think this thing has the speed or bulk to imitate Magneton's set. It wouldn't be bad-bad, but definitely not A or S-tier imo.

:Zorua: Mindgames are fun :)

:Marill:/:Fletchinder: These could be pretty interesting Machoke checks. Marill being a Fairy with no Steel weakness is huge, even Forb Machoke can't 2hko it while Fletchinder would be a great offensive check, especially with HDB.

None of these 4 threats seem to be completely broken, but this could lead to a metagame where most of these are standard on every team to check each other. (like NFE Ubers)

While there are legitimate concerns towards Haunter and Machoke, I think we should hold off on banning stuff until the first DLC is here. They each have checks and the DLC will significantly change the meta, maybe even causing retests and likely causing some new bans as well. Haunter has actually been dropping in usage and might not even be the second most used mon, so if people really want to ban something, I think Machoke is the 'better' option. This took me a while to make, so if you agree, disagree or noticed that I missed something (and I likely will have), feel free to let me know. (I can feel the Belsprout tags already)
 

Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
Crystal’s post OMPL MemeTeamdump

Hey frens, my first major team tournament has come to an end and with the DLC fast approaching us, I thought it’d be a good idea to dump my teams (big s/os to Thimo for helping me with like half of these) for everyone to see and use before the metagame drastically changes again. Full sprites lead to the pokepaste link and I've hidden my take on the games in spoilers since people might want to watch them first if they haven't. Enjoy!! (s/os at the end as well!!)

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Week 1
5 fing machokes.png
(ftr it was actually only 4 times)
Opponent: DurzaOffTopic

:ss/clefairy: :ss/machoke: :ss/linoone-galar: :ss/klang: :ss/gloom: :ss/carkol:

I knew that Durza liked to bring fat teams and stall in general so I wanted to bring Flame Orb Machoke (which was at the time a pretty unexplored wallbreaker). I paired it with WishPort Clefairy as it would allow me to bring in Machoke safely as well as healing it up with the constant chip it would be receiving. I added Galarian Linoone since it's the best offensive Haunter check, added Klang as a second win condition and solid Haunter switch-in and added Gloom which was my main Machoke check. The last slot was originally Palpitoad but I struggled with hazards and Haunter too much so ended up switching it to Carkol. Be warned, this team’s Pilo matchup can be a bit rough at times because of this change.

Replay

I predicted correctly and Durza brought some disgustingly fat team which was a relatively good matchup for me. I bluffed Clefairy not having teleport early on to put myself into a solid position to get Machoke in for free a couple turns later. This let me take out Koffing which was the main Machoke answer and the expense of most of Machoke's health. Fortunately, broken Clef meant I could heal Machoke back to full and bring it back in multiple times as Machoke proceeded to claim every single KO in the game. Honestly this picture summarises the game pretty well:


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Week 2

Opponent: Tony

:ss/machoke: :ss/linoone-galar: :ss/duosion: :ss/roselia: :ss/vullaby: :ss/mudbray:

I wanted to build around Future Sight Duosion in order to exploit Sans’ overuse of Gloom as her answer to Machoke (but the team she gave to Tony didn’t have a Gloom lmao). In addition to Future Sight, I gave Duosion Toxic because it could punish Dark-type switch-ins who expect it to be Double Dance instead. Machoke and Linoone were added as just generally solid mons that could provide a lot of offensive pressure, with Linoone significantly benefitting from Future Sight dissuading Fighting-types from switching in. Roselia was added as a reliable Haunter check and Vullaby was an additional special wall with access to hazard control. Lastly I added RestTalk PhysDef Mudbray since the team at this point was very weak to Klang and really needed a physical wall outside of Duosion.

Replay

This was a weird game. Early game was pretty boring imo as we were just scouting each other's sets and trying to get our wincons in safely. Tony sacked his Machoke pretty early on (probably not expecting my SpDef Roselia to be crept to outpace it), making the rest of the game much easier. Most of this game was pretty standard from that point onwards although there was this part where two Roselias set Spikes up, fired off attacks and healed it back up (SM NFE flashbacks). Eventually with the advantage in mons, I managed to trade mons back and forth until I eventually won.

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Week 3

Opponent: Ho3nConfirm3d

:ss/vulpix: :ss/charmeleon: :ss/wartortle: :ss/gloom: :ss/clefairy: :ss/carkol:

I wanted to bring something a bit less standard this week. Originally I was going to bring some really weird Webs team. This was the first week I built with Thimo and he suggested I should use Sun which had been very slept on since Ivysaur’s ban. Sun had always struggled with Carkol as well as having nothing to lure in Steel-types for Gloom. Thimo suggested we should use Wartortle as it could fit both of these roles pretty well and Weather Ball in Sun is able to destroy many of Wartortle’s checks, as well as the combination of Fire-and Water-type attacks being pretty difficult to switch into. Vulpix’s spread lets it live Specs Haunter Sludge Wave and KO it back with Overheat. Charmeleon and Gloom are also standard additions. Clefairy allowed me to get in my sun sweepers much easier as well as being able to heal Charmeleon, Wartortle and Gloom so they have opportunities to heal up. Lastly Carkol was added for both hazards, hazard control and as a meme mon cause offensive Carkol hits surprisingly in the sun. This team also has the best nickname in this whole dump; Carjane.

Replay

I’m too lazy to write about this game so here is the game in 3 pictures:

Team Preview:


Crystalites has won the battle:

========
Week 4

Opponent: TJ

:ss/diglett: :ss/shellos: :ss/hattrem: :ss/vullaby: :ss/corsola-galar::ss/haunter: (For this one, just don't click on Haunter)

Initially, I was paired up against 85percent, who hates playing vs stall (I mean to be honest who doesn’t). Well TJay subbed in but since 85 was gonna be his main building support, I decided I’d use a fatter team anyways. Anyways this was Thimo and my attempt on “stall” team but i guess it turned out more semi-stallish. Diglett was there just to remove Taunt Linoone since that specific set was really annoying to deal with. Shellos was meant to be the star of the team and could single-handedly win games against unprepared teams (I mean who even preps for a Shellos) and also the main Special wall. RestTalk Hattrem was added to reliably beat pretty much any hazard setter. Fast Vullaby could Roost on Piloswine and sometimes beat it as well as being a decent physical wall in general. Corsola was added as a more reliable check to Piloswine and Machoke. Nicknames are based on this image made my Thimo:


(Other tabs may also have cool artwork hidden in them)

Replay

Very early on, Diglett successfully trapped Linoone with its Bulldoze+Reversal combo, and a few turns after I managed to remove Haunter by landing a Mirror Coat with Shellos. I then decided to choke to game, letting my Shellos get poisoned and being extremely greedy with Haunter, as well as being outplayed TJ throughout the midgame for the most part. An untimely crit on Hattrem sealed the deal towards the end of the game but the loss was mostly because of my poor performance. I was happy that the techs worked and didn't do this team justice.

========
Week 5


Opponent: Frisoeva

:ss/duosion: :ss/hakamo-o: :ss/linoone-galar: :ss/klang: :ss/corsola-galar: :ss/hattrem:

I wanted to build around Duosion’s Double Dance set as it is a very scary setup sweeper, but Linoone is super common so I’d have to find ways to remove or cripple it. I paired Duosion with Toxic Soundproof Hakamo-o to block Parting Shot and Toxic Orb Switcharoo Linoone. Both of these could bait in other Dark-types like Vullaby and Morgrem and cripple them with ease. Klang was added as a second win condition as well as a much needed Haunter check. Galarian Corsola was my main physical wall and Hattrem was once again on hazard control duty.

Replay

The early game consisted of a lot of switching and preventing hazards from going up. I managed to catch the Flame Orb Machoke pretty early on, removing a pretty big threat to my team. Despite having the mon-advantage, this game was still extremely even for a very long time. The Wish Teleport Clefairy and its frens (especially palpitoad) proved a very troublesome core for me to break past and my team was getting slowly worn down. As a last ditch attempt, I decided to try and setup Duosion, and Friso choked as he decided to sack every single mon to my Duosion except for Linoone. Unfortunately 0.002848307% happened, and I ended up losing the game so rip. At least I got some attention with all the memes that were made, LOL.

========
Week 6

Opponent: uhuhuhu7 (name change when :o)

:ss/charjabug: :ss/lampent: :ss/linoone-galar: :ss/machoke: :ss/palpitoad: :ss/hattrem:

It’s a tradition that I bring webs at least once in every team tour I participate in. Seeing uhu’s overreliance on Hattrem as his main hazard control, I decided this was the week to bring a team with everyone’s favourite boxbug. I immediately paired it with Lampent, which has really hard coverage to switch into, and the lack of water-types on uhu’s previous teams was why I wanted to bring it over Haunter. I added Linoone as my way to revenge kill Haunter, and added Machoke since this thing is broken, should be on every team pretty much as well as fitting very nicely on webs. I added RestTalk SpDef Palpitoad as my Wartortle and Haunter switch-in and check. Lastly I added the objective cutest Pokemon in our metagame to cover annoying Ground-type Stealth Rock users.

Replay

I spend the first 15 turns or so just wearing down uhu’s team with a lot of switching and some decent predictions. Eventually this leads to me using Healing Wish with Hattrem to to heal up something to full later on. By turn 20, all of uhu’s team is basically below half health, although he still has Hattrem with Healing Wish and potential healing on Clefairy. I manage to take out his Palpitoad and made a slight misplay by giving his Hattrem the opportunity to heal his Machoke to full as I was using this opportunity to get the Healing Wish off on my own Linoone. I managed to get up webs safely since Hattrem was finally gone. The game then became very messy and frustrating to play as Dynamic Punch meant I hit myself like 10 times lmao. He ends up tricking a Choice Band to my Palpitoad and we end up trading kills back and forth but the combination of webs giving me speed advantage allowed me to keep my one mon advantage for the remainder of the game.

========
Week 7

Opponent: King Leo V

:ss/koffing: :ss/piloswine: :ss/corsola-galar: :ss/hattrem: :ss/pikachu: :ss/linoone-galar:

I actually wanted to use a Toxic Spikes team with Neutralising Gas Koffing because so many teams were reliant on Hattrem as their only form of hazard control (me included in these later weeks lol). Anyways I was originally going to use it in week 4, but I couldn’t make a coherent enough team to feel comfortable bringing for that week. Thimo suggested I pair Koffing with max HP Substitute PIloswine, since it could set subs up on numerous Pokemon, including Galarian Corsola and Mareanie. All the grounded Poison-types in NFE don’t like to switch into Piloswine meaning that the Toxic Spikes Poison are spread to other members of the opposing team. Next two pretty standard Pokemon joined the team; Corsola was added as a general physical wall with Stealth Rock and Hattrem was my form as hazard control. Pikachu was the next addition because Fake Speed is extremely broken and synergises extremely well with the residual damage from T Spikes. Honestly, it’s a really underrated wallbreaker and cleaner at the moment and is really scary for most teams to deal with right now. Lastly, this team was very weak to Haunter at this point, so Linoone was added as it can outspeed non-Choice Scarf variant and revenge kill it with easy whilst also providing me with another Knock Off user to help Pilo and Pikachu break past teams. This is by far my favourite team of the bunch I used.

Replay

At team preview, I noticed my opponent’s only potential hazard removal was Wartortle, which doesn’t want to take chip since it wants to be able to setup so I decided I wanted to lead Koffing and get up a T spike as early as possible and start wearing down my opponent’s team. I correctly predicted that Leo wouldn’t try to setup webs on the first turn since I had Hattrem on my team and a few turns later managed to get my Stealth Rock up as well as these were both integral to my game plan of chipping my opponent’s team. Specs Haunter managed to come in for free and I was hard punished; it was quite difficult to play around as I had to let me Pilo be brought down to about half health and after that I had to do a few doubles and predictions where my Koffing got low as well. Later on, Hattrem basically forced Linoone to come in and take T Spikes damage. I manage to take out his Linoone, but my own Linoone is left extremely low. At this point I sack my Koffing and this was fine with this because my Toxic Spike was still up. I managed to pick off the rest of his team slowly, thanks to the poison damage over time and got a few nice reads on Charjabug to pretty much seal the deal. I use Healing Wish with Hattrem to heal my Linoone to full and then it and Corsola manages to finish up the end game.

I'm super grateful that the Money Mags were confident enough to pick me as their only NFE mainer on the team. I was ranked pretty low on many people's power rankings and I hope I managed to prove them wrong :P. Despite not making playoffs, OMPL was really fun and it's the first time I've really felt involved with the OM community (whether that's for the better or worse I'll let you decide). I'm honestly not gonna farm likes unlike my fellow team members *cough* Volkner *cough* so I'll just include my shoutouts here instead:

Funbot28 First and foremost thanks for being an incredible manager and you'll probably still be up there when/if I join other team tournaments in the future. You supported multiple different metagames whilst also playing really well yourself. Thanks for drafting some really chill people as teammates and making this tournament a really enjoyable experience for me. We got unfortunate in some of our weeks, which probably takes away from how good of a manager you really were but I'm sure you'll lead a team to victory next OMPL.

GL Volkner I still don't exactly remember why I wanted to be on your team so badly, but I'm still glad we did end up on the same. You made the team environment really positive even when we lost. It was reassuring that every single week you'd ask every single player on the team like 24 hours ahead whether they were comfortable with the team and if there was anything you could do to help. You're super good at mons but sucks that like my good players, you dislike the game.

Dragonillis This tour didn't exactly go to plan for you, but you stayed extremely positive and I greatly appreciated the games you were willing to test with me whilst also telling me what I could fix on the teams. This was a difficult player pool and you weren't the most fortunate this tournament, but you'll 100% do better in the next team tournament you sign up for!! Maybe I'll try learn some french so :wigdeter: isn't our main form of communication LOL, but your genuinely a really nice person to talk to and chill with.

Matiss98 You were an awesome teammate to have and it was really cool to learn about camo in the few discussions we had together and actually one of the big reasons why i enjoy watching Camo games more than any other OM (except NFE ofc). You helped out in multiple different OMs and I think you did really well this tournament so you were honestly just a pleasure to have as a teammate.

dimrah We didn't talk all that much, but you're crazy good at BH and I think people have taken notice that you're not just a ladder god. It was pretty funny to see your reactions in chat after my games especially when half the time you either had no idea what was going on or didn't even know I was playing until halfway through. But hey I guess that's the same with me and BH lmao.

Gmansour20 Thanks for dropping a <3 every time I won a match in my pms unlike the rest of my teammates smfh. In all seriousness, you're actually too nice though lmao and a large part of the positive atmosphere in the team. I think sometimes you're too harsh on yourself after games but I do admire your modesty.

Fardin Also didn't talk too much, since we our tiers really don't overlap (but that's my fault since I only play NFE LOL) but i knew we were definitely gonna be on the same team after the first mock draft where we had our 2 minute bonding session in the OM discord. You and Gman honestly are a really cool duo that was integral to our team.

Thimo Honestly might just rename this to Thimo's post OMPL teamdump cause of how much you helped on the teams. Hope we get to build together in another tournament soon since it's super fun and your fucking nuts dude... in both ways.

Marjane For being cute and being supportive when I get tilted for losing in this bad game. :cow:

Quagg For being cute and basically being my test dummy for all the teams I made and even some that didn't make it into this post.

Tack :] For being a annoying sack of shit half the time, but you're always chill and fun to talk to regardless.

SBPC For being cute and being a great friend as always. Also for signing up for manager when I couldn't be bothered LOL.

and everyone else who played NFE in OMPL, thanks for making NFE look like the coolest "OM" in the tournament!!
 
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I'm going to skip over the... disappointing results of the suspect in favour of talking about the new mons we got, or at least the ones I think will be okay. If I didn't talk about your favourite new drop, it was probably intentional.

Regular Sandshrew sucks, but Alolan Sandshrew might see some sort of niche with snowpix and slush rush, although sun teams are probably just better. Its typing is okay, Ice STAB is pretty good in this meta, but part of the reason Piloswine's so good is because it has a second great STAB backing it up, and Snowshrew just doesn't. Might be cute to try.

While it appeared to have missed out on all the cool new toys Poliwrath got as a result of politoed existing, Poliwhirl will probably carve itself a niche as a secondary rain sweeper, or just BD sets in general. It is probably the second best rain abuser in the tier behind Lombre since it can break Roselia at +6, which is a feat Lombre can't match, but full rain is practically nonexistent and I'm not sure self-rain + BD is a good idea. Shame about those Poliwrath moves.

Be very, very grateful that this thing doesn't get NP. And that it shares checks with Haunter. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this thing gets at least suspected, as it's broadly a second haunter, except with more speed and power with a worse STAB backing it up. It notably outspeeds Linoone, meaning that "switch your Linoone in and hope they clicked the move you're immune to" isn't a particularly great strategy since if it's weak enough Kadabra can pick it off anyways. CounterSash being a potential option reduces the number of safe switchins as well, since it can choose to stay in and kill your scarf Krokorok if it wants to. Lastly, Pursuit being gone makes Kadabra even scarier, for obvious reasons. Should Kadabra go, I could see Abra being somewhat viable, with 105 SpA and 90 Speed actually putting it barely behind Haunter itself in terms of speed and power, in addition to CounterSash sets working here too.

Seems niche but cute as a tspiker or spinner, even if Hattrem probably makes its life hell. Don't have much to add here.

While Galarian and regular Slowpoke are largely the same, even having identical stats, regular Slowpoke getting Teleport and Galarian Slowpoke not probably makes the regular one the definitive one. Regen + Teleport sounds extremely cool on paper, but I have a feeling its stats might let it down here. It's also not really a Machoke check since it's weak to Knock Off and hates losing eviolite, but it can switch into non-FO sets well with regenerator, even if it loses to Flame Orb. Mareanie existing sucks for it, but Teleport might be enough to make up for it. Maybe.

I'm going to lump these two together because I don't expect Magneton to stick around very long. Losing HP Fire/Grass is admittedly bad for Magneton, but it can still trap Resttalk/Shift/Gear Grind Klang as timid Specs TBolt 3HKOs the standard set, and because Magneton's faster it kills it before it can use rest a second time (Klang rolling Shift Gear messes this up, obviously, so it's not perfect, but forcing Klang to rest is pretty easy to take advantage of even if you don't get the trap off. Just something to note). If you want to forgo being able to trap Klang for other broken or potentially broken pokemon like Haunter or Kadabra, specs Analytic will generally wreck everything not named Palpitoad, which takes about 70 minimum (PhysDef, SpDef is probably an option but then you lose to other things you want it to check, such as Raboot or Piloswine) from Analytic Steel Beam if you can get a good read, even if it's slightly impractical due to Magneton losing HP. Magneton with good prediction feels like it'll have little to no counterplay, crappy volt absorb mons like electrike don't count and also die to flash cannon, and even if you can revenge it that doesn't matter if you can't switch it in safely. Magnemite keeps the trapping abilities, matching the feat of 3HKOing Klang while also outspeeding it with Modest Specs (see above for shift gear), but lacks the breaking-the-tier-in-half qualities that Magneton gets, making it more niche. I suppose you could try some sort of weird Iron Defense + Body Press set to trap both Klang and Ferro at the cost of only doing that and losing most of your general ability to hit stuff hard, but I'm not sure how successful that would be in the long run, especially on Magnemite.

Massive moveset and good bulk, but feels lacking in other areas. I'm sure some madman who enjoys playing full stall can find some use for it.

I don't think I really need to elaborate on why this needs to be banned. Teleport just makes it worse, since now it doesn't even invite Machoke in for free that often. I'm also not covering Happiny for again, what I assume to be obvious reasons.

Probably the best check to Machoke we got here, although I need to point out that Knock into CC kills after rocks, and two CCs kills in general against Guts Machoke. Not the biggest deal in the world thanks to Regen, but it does take some effort to be able to beat Flame Orb by itself. I'm not too versed in this mon, but Knock + Regen seems cool. Its biggest problem is going to be trying to not be passive enough to let half the tier in for free, but Knock Off ultimately helps. Like Slowpoke, it probably hates losing its item, but it's not as big a deal due to overall better stats.

Unfortunately, not getting Hurricane like Kingdra probably kills its viability as a rain sweeper for as long as Roselia is a viable choice in the tier. Flip Turn would be cool with specs, but again, Roselia is in the tier, as while as other things like Mareanie, Brionne and even Palpitoad. Maybe Sniper sets could be worth it, but I have serious doubts it'll ever be good.

It gets Spin, Teleport, Recover, and no bulk to abuse any of that. Offensive spin with Analytic might be cool, since it can pressure Roselia and Mareanie with psychic moves, even if it doesn't get STAB on them. It might not hit hard enough for that, though, but I see at least some potential here.

Please refer to my first sentence on Chansey. It was already broken last gen, and now it gets access to Heavy-Duty Boots to mitigate its biggest weakness, as while as Dual Wingbeat to circumvent what we thought would be the opportunity cost of using boots on Scyther. It's almost certainly way too strong for the tier.

Let me just get this out of the way: Unless you're running some ungodly physically defensive Marill set, this thing loses to every Machoke set bar maybe resttalk. BD + AJet could be cute, but I get the feeling that its stats might let it down in the long run. Sap Sipper sets are effectively dead as well, considering that Rose, Dartrix, and Gloom all have secondary STABs, but I guess it comes in on Tangela if your team's really weak to it.

Z-Conversion is gone, but I can't help but feel that this might be too bulky for the tier to handle. It'll be a really good general check to anything not named Machoke if it does stay, given its huge bulk and self-sufficiency. I wasn't around when this got banned last gen, so I don't have much to add here.

Okay, it's probably bad, but it's a normal type that bypasses Corsola and can hit Klang for SE damage. I'm expecting nothing from it but I could see either Specs or Band at least being worth trying, since its coverage is genuinely crazy.

Cute spikes lead. Hattrem kind of messes with it, unfortunately, and Machoke and Haunter's influence (plus likely several of the new things in this post) have probably made the tier too bulky for a semi-suicide lead to thrive. Definitely good at what it does, it just depends on if what it does is good in the meta at any given time.

The first Pokemon we get that actually resists both of Specs Haunter's STABs, although Dazzling Gleam drops it. I could see it having several niches, mostly the same from last gen with rocks and scarf moxie, but its stats might let it down despite the amazing typing. If you're running scarf Krokorok to revenge Kadabra, you probably want Beat Up on it over Pursuit this gen to bypass sash.

It's a worse Tangela with Spore and a fighting resistance, as while as a poison neutrality that won't save it against Haunter. ultimately probably not worth it unless Spore is that good, and the fighting resistance doesn't save it from dying to Machoke (see a trend here?), but there could be something here.

It's sort of hurt by Machoke's existence, since it both has to compete with bulky versions for a teamslot and everything's out for Machoke's head, but Regenerator + U-Turn will probably make for a niche but usable offensive pivot. It also picked up CC this gen,which means switching in a Ghost on it isn't as big a deal. I see it being pretty alright, but it's definitely going to be uncommon when Machoke is right there.

Boots lets it use its kind of neat typing defensively, and it's got wisp, u-turn, and recovery. Having to pick between boots and eviolite on a defensive pokemon is miserable and is likely to ultimately hold it back, and despite the fighting resist, it doesn't check Machoke regardless of which item you pick. It'll probably have a niche, but it might be way too weak to Knock Off to really use, considering our hazard removal still isn't that great.

Boots! It actually gets a good STAB to use with them, too since it also picked up Dual Wingbeat, although the power drop from Acrobatics is noticeable (~35 base power difference). I don't see offensive sets really taking off given how bulky the meta is, especially since we got like seven new regenerator mons in this DLC, but I could see something like taunt/roost/defog/wingbeat with boots being nice, as priority defog is a godsend for certain teams. It also revenges Kadabra as long as it hasn't taken a hit, even through countersash, courtesy of dual wingbeat. Definitely improved from gen 7, but it might end up being metagame-dependant.

Maybe there's something here? It picked up Flip Turn, which gives it a STAB Adaptability-boosted U-Turn, but its stats are genuinely awful. Adaptability Specs with Hydro/Sludge Wave/Flipturn/Tbolt could be neat, or maybe dropping one of those moves for Toxic Spikes and going bulky while still retaining a reasonable amount of firepower thanks to adaptability.

It's a worse Hippopotas defensively but hits harder with Ground Scald. Theoretically it can do everything Hippopotas can while hitting harder, but the added weaknesses Ghost typing brings with no useful resistances probably dooms it.

Maybe I'll do a part 2 of this where I talk about some cool new moves older Pokemon got, but I'm lazy, so don't expect it.
 

Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
Post DLC Quickban Vote #1

:Chansey: :Scyther: :Porygon2: :Magneton:
bans.png


:Chansey: This is extremely self explanatory. It is able to wall every single special attacker in the metagame as well a some physical attackers. It's bulk is way beyond anything NFE Pokemon can deal with.

:Scyther: Scyther got even better this generation with Heavy Duty Boots and Dual Wingbeat added to its arsenal making it an extremely potent offensive threat capable of breaking past pretty much any wall. Both Swords Dance and Choice Band are far too strong for the metagame to handle.

:Porygon2: Its amazing stats in conjunction with an incredible movepool allows it to run a variety of sets which range from a defensive Tank to an offensive Download Agility set. It's far too effective at fulfilling both an offensive and defensive role as it would have far too many opportunities to setup and be incredibly difficult to break past.

:Magneton: Magneton hits incredibly hard with its Specs Analytic set, which has very few switch-ins. Whilst the removal of Hidden power was a nerf to Magneton, we don't believe this was enough to lower its power level to NFE acceptable levels. It can run Toxic as a 4th to cripple the few good switch-ins it has such as Palpitoad. Additionally it can trap and set up on Steel-types, like Klang, with Charge beam and break past teams with a couple boosts.

Chansey, Scyther, Porygon2, and Magneton have all been quickbanned from SS NFE. Tagging The Immortal to implement this.
 
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Hello! with the DLC drop NFE has gotten a bunch of new Pokemon as well as new moves who could quite possibly change the metagame up. I've listed below the new moves and the Pokemon that learn them as well as the generality of our new Pokemon. I've tried to keep this is metagame as related by only including viable Pokemon.

Returning Pokemon:
:abra: :carvanha: :clauncher: :fletchinder: :foongus: :herdier: :jigglypuff: :kadabra: :krokorok: :larvesta: :loudred: :lickitung: :luxio:
:marill: :magnemite::mienfoo: :poliwhirl: :porygon: :sandygast: :sandshrew: :staryu: :seadra: :slowpoke: :skrelp: :tangela: :tentacool: :whirlipede:

1592517423830.png

Fire
Burning Jealousy:
:morgrem: :lampent: :vulpix:

Water
Flip Turn:
:brionne: :carvanha: :clauncher: :wartortle: :seadra: :staryu:

Electric
Rising Voltage:
:charjabug: :luxio: :pikachu: :klang:

Grass
Grassy Glide:
:dartrix: :thwackey:

Poison
Corrosive Gas:
:koffing: :trubbish:

Ground
Scorching Sand:
:vibrava: :carkol:

Flying
Dual Wingbeat:
:vibrava: :corvisquire: :dartrix: :fletchinder: :tranquill:

Psychic
Expanding Force:
:hattrem: :duosion: :gothorita: :kadabra:

Bug
Skitter Smack:
:Charjabug: :larvesta: :krokorok: :whirlipede:

Ghost
Poltergeist:
:dusclops: :lampent: :sinistea:

Dragon
Scale Shot:
:fraxure:

Dark
Lash Out:
:krokorok: :linoone-galar: :morgrem:

Steel
Steel Roller:
:klang: :marill: :whirlipede: :cufant:

Fairy
Misty Explosion:
:clefairy: :jigglypuff: :marill:
 

SBPC

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Day 1 and I've already begun cracking this meta wide open, its great.

Seriously, we gotta talk about Kadabra. Utilizing its enormous kit that can be teched to all glory, with its natural ability to outspeed the entire unboosted meta, it's already a threat to behold. It's got two main sets, that being its Focus Sash + Mguard Set, which enables counter to freely grab one use against anyone foolish enough to attack it at 100 and take the risk, and its Life Orb Mguard set, which enables insanely powerful unboosted wallbreaking with use of STAB + Dazzling Gleam, and 2 move slots to throw in extra coverage or an obnoxious pool of techs. (Teleport, CM, Protect for Trap FI, Encore, etc) While these sets are always in their own right insanely dangerous and impossible to tell from preview, I've found a set that when misplayed against, can be an instantaneous game ender. PTerrain EForce Kadabra, which can run either of the aforementioned items and appear as a normal set, creates an incredibly overwhelming wallbreaking force, punishing players for not having a scarfer to immediately remove it. When paired with Evilote Trapinch, it can immediately remove its checks such as Klang and Scarf Krokorok, while weakening others like Ferroseed. This combination can be insanely overwhelming over the course of a game starting from turn 1, and in late game, a single slip up can cost you. While this isnt a call to ban, I made this post to point out that this threat can be incredibly overwhelming, and I'd like for others thoughts on it and its effect on the meta.

Other meta fun stuff I've found is the obvious power Tangela can have, and it's honestly really nice to have around with its great utility pool. Seadra, Wartortle, and Brionne are great users of the new Flip Turn, a water based U-Turn that can be really strong for gaining momentum, and switchins like Mareanie are made somewhat less effective by this new momentum tool.

uhuhuhu7 Had a discussion with me about sun's new potenial with all these fun tools, but I've yet to see it optimized and it's probably going to be something to watch out for now that Tangela can provide great offensive support to an already great playstyle.

Anyways, thats my mini rant for day 1, I hope the meta continues to develop from here out!
 
First Thoughts DLC 1 Post

:Kadabra:Kadabra:Kadabra:

I would like to start this off by saying, Haunter escaped the quick ban by 1 vote. Not only was it by 1 vote, but most of the council members regretted voting no ban soon after. Kadabra is like Haunter, but better. Not only is it better, but it can be paired with Haunter to make a deadly core. This core was also used back in SM, being very effective; even when mons like Pursuit Grimer-Alola were around to trap the aforementioned. I believe that in a weeks time maybe slightly less, the council should take a quickban vote on Kadabra. I assume you already have already read it, but if you haven't, SBPC also made a great post about it above.

:Machoke:Machoke:Machoke:
Machoke is just as broken as before, please quickban this.

Points I made in the suspect thread.
  • Flame Orb Machoke promotes unhealthy predictions. It is generally more of a guessing game than thinking long term. These predictions most of the time reward the Machoke user.
  • Flame Orb Machoke has no counters.
  • Flame Orb Machoke almost completely invalidates balances and fatter play styles (This also enables Haunter due to haunter preying on offensive teams).
The reason this mon was not banned was due to people being unsure about it with the DLC (it was only 1 vote away from being banned). Flame Orb Machoke still has little to no counters, with Flame Orb. Even without Flame Orb it is great at living hits and getting KOs. It can also consistently make progress by Knocking Off its Switchins. Machoke + Haunter (and now Kadabras) pressure on the metagame is too much. Also even if you remove Haunter and Kadabra, well then it loses its revenge killers. One of Flame Orbs biggest flaws is also needing to predict Haunter. So with or without Haunter/Kadabra Machoke is Banworthy.

Viability Of Newly Released Pokemon (This is really early into the metagame so take this with a grain of salt)

:Kadabra: Kadabra S, See my argument/sbpc's above. This should explain why I think it is S worthy.

:Tangela: Tangela S, Many people would say its A+ and not very meta defining, but it does so much so well and is such a good pivot. I know this is a really unpopular opinion, but I am going to stand by it. A+ at the least imo.

:Lickitung: Lickitung B+, Nice for Kadabra/Haunter and gets wish, knock off etc.

:Fletchinder: Fletchinder B+, It can check Machoke and with Gale Wings check Kadabra. Will-O-Wisp is nice for crippling mons. Reliable recovery and SD etc.

:Marill: Marill B, Just so all of you know when I mention Marill I am generally referring to [Adamant CB Play Rough, Knock Off, Ice Punch, Aqua Jet]. Aqua Jet is cool for Kadabra (it is a roll at full) and Haunter after some rocks. Other than that it can be used to pressure non max speed Machokes. Knock Off helps it make progress and Ice Punch is for Roselias and Tangelas. Without Monferno Marill is not at its peak, but it can function in the current metagame.

:Mienfoo: Mienfoo B, while Kadabra and Haunter threaten it both can not switch in. Knock Off + U-turn is so good especially in NFE and you can use Fake Out to threaten out Kadabra. Solid Pokemon, but it is not the best of the best.

:Krokorok: Krokorok B-, In my opinion this thing has always been overrated and without pursuit it has almost no purpose. This thing could maybe even be lower 2bh.


I am not going to comment on the other pokemon, however I believe that Hail has a ton of Potential and might make a post about it tomorrow, no promises.

Teams
:Haunter::Kadabra::Machoke::Tangela::Brionne::Vullaby:
:Haunter::Kadabra::Machoke::Tangela::Mareanie::Klang:
:Haunter::Kadabra::Machoke::Tangela::Raboot::Linoone-Galar:
:Haunter::Kadabra::Machoke::Lampent::Piloswine::Klang:
:Marill::Roselia::Kadabra::Lampent::Tangela::Klang:
:Duosion::Dusclops::Skrelp::Machoke::Zweilous::Kadabra: (No Eviolite mon btw)
 
I'd like to give my thoughts on some of the new moves and the mons that benefit most from them, in other words, just imitating Marjane


Fire
Burning Jealousy: A pretty situational move, but I could see it working in specific scenarios.
:Morgrem: Didn't have Fire coverage, now it does.

:Zorua: Had Incinerate, but this is better.


Dark
Lash Out: Also pretty situational, but could be used as anti-Parting Shot or Defog tech.


Ghost
Poltergeist: This move really isn't all that great in NFE, since it requires your opponent to hold an item. The small power boost isn't enough to justify being careful with Knock Off and eviolite will cancel out the extra damage anyway.
:Golett:/:Yamask-Galar:/:Pumpkaboo: They all had lackluster Ghost STAB, so this move is a nice buff.


Flying
Dual Wingbeat: Doesn't seem all that great but is a godsend for some mons. (also Clef learns it lol)
:Fletchinder: Fletchinder had to use either Aerial Ace or Acrobatics as Flying STAB, which meant either 60 bp or relying on your opponent removing your item, which would have been especially painful because of HDB' usefulness but now it can just run Dual Wingbeat and carry an item.

:Combee: Combee is bad, but objectively, this move is a huge buff. It had no physical Flying move, which obv. wasn't great for Hustle sets.

(:Scyther: Yeah this mon is dead but it helped it for a couple of hours lol as its best Flying STAB.)


Poison
Corrosive Gas: A nice alternative of eviolite removal for mons that don't get Knock Off
:Koffing:/:Trubbish:(/:Stunky:) Defensive mons that don't get Knock Off, this move gives them more utility.


Dragon
Scale Shot: A weird but interesting move that can work on some mons and gives a lot of new Dragon coverage.
:Fraxure: Can use it to set up with Swords Dance instead of Dragon Dance, thanks to the speed boost.

:Chewtle:/:Silicobra: These mons aren't great in general but now at least have a way of getting speed boosts.


Bug
Skitter Smack: Underrated move that really synergizes with some mons and also provides a lot of new coverage.
:Sliggoo:/:Dewpider:/:Snom: Allows these mons to perform their role as spdef walls even better (yes, Snom is a spdef wall)

:Whirlipede: Didn't have good Bug STAB, now it does. Already has great physical defense, so spatk drops are usally appreciated.

:Charjabug:/:Dewpider: Allows them to beat Hattrem with ease, which is their number one enemy.


Water
Flip Turn: Massive gamechanger. most mons that get it will have it.
:Carvanha: Has by far the highest attack out of all the water types and decent speed combined with Speed Boost.

:literally every water mon lol: Momentum is valuable, U-turn and Volt Switch have been staples of practically every metagame, and Flip Turn is no different.


Ground
Scorching Sands: I like this move, but that's just because I'm mean. I don't think it will have as great an impact as Scald, but that's a high bar to reach. Unfortunately, few NFE mons that can learn it have good spatk.
:Baltoy: Baltoy is good at the hazard game, but is too passive. Scorching Sands gives it a way of pressuring physical attackers.

:Sandygast: I find it strange that this was included in the viable mons list (which it is btw), but not under the move, especially since this mon and move are a perfect fit. It's defensive with recovery, and can now spread burns as well.

Also, while I think the 6 terrain moves have a lot of potential, I'm not going to discuss them yet until I've tinkered with them.

I'll also definitely be making noms for the returning mons and I agree with most of the ones that Arctic made.

PS: Kadabra isn't broken, and please leave Haunter and Machoke alone as well, they've been through enough banning procedures.
 
Back with some thoughts:


This thing is way too good. It honestly just feels like Haunter but better, since it really only needs two moves at any given time (Psychic + Gleam) and naturally outspeeds everything in the meta anyways, which dramatically limits the amount of potential options to revenge it or even switch into it, because most everything is taking two hits and if you're trying to switch in a scarfer it's probably going to die. Additionally, it shares most of its very limited pool of checks with Haunter, most notably Klang and Vullaby, which makes for a very threatening core given how easy Klang is to deal with and Vullaby's weakness to Dazzling gleam. However, the main thing that makes Kadabra even more dangerous than Haunter in my opinion is the sheer amount of customizability Kadabra has to circumvent most of its checks due to its absolutely insane movepool. Switching in Klang is fine, until it reveals Teleport into Trapinch. Vullaby and Ferrosseed are generally okay switchins, unless Kadabra knocks them off and switches out. SpDef Clefairy can switch in, but the Kadabra sets up psychic terrain. Obviously it can't run all of these at once, but it's impossible to know in advance and you have to play around any possibility until it actually reveals what it is. This is especially true now that CounterSash sets no longer need to fear pursuit, as it's now impossible to revenge it in one turn (the illustrious Scarf Beat Up Krokorok nonwithstanding) and demands either very careful playing around a possible sash, or just taking the risk, hitting it, and praying it's LO. But thanks to Magic Guard, you have no way of knowing if it's sash until you have to take the risk, at which point it may be too late. And it's not like it's weak, either. Neutral switchins not named SpDef Clef tend to die in 2-3 hits to even the sash sets, and a lot of offensive pokemon die in one after some chip. I really do think Kadabra is too much for the tier to handle right now, and should be banned.


This thing still has no switchins with its specs set, doubly so now that hazards are even harder to remove with Hattrem trending downwards, so Klang is forced into rest % even faster. Fortunately, it hasn't gotten lost in the Kadabra hype since it happens to be its best partner in the best core in the meta by far right now. It still kind of has to play immunity roulette since Steel + Dark teams are so common for both it and Kadabra, but that isn't really an issue, since even one good guess can just end games. Kadabra being around just makes this worse, since now Haunter isn't relied to sweep on its own and even if it dies, it's got backup. Additionally, since the DLC dropped I've seen more scarf and subwisp haunters, as scarf revenges Kadabra while still having very limited counterplay, and subwisp is great at messing with some of Haunter's checks that aren't Klang/Vull, most notably Piloswine, although it's largely inferior to specs imo. we got nothing that reliably switches into it in the DLC, as even something like Spdef Krokorok gets 2HKO'd by gleam. While it is more prediction-reliant than Kadabra, the reward is also much higher, and the new DLC didn't really change anything from last meta to make it any less broken.


So, we waited for DLC to see what checks we'd get... and look at how that turned out. The closest thing we got to a Machoke check from the DLC is Tangela, who loses if it ever switches into Knock Off, or a few things that can switch in exactly once and really hate losing their items, like Fletchinder. I'm pretty sure at least one DNB vote was for that reasoning, so now that we've seen that that isn't the case we can just go ahead and ban this for real this time.

Anyways, with the broken stuff out of the way, I'm going to talk about some new/old stuff I've been using:


This honestly feels like the only new Pokemon we got that manages to not be broken or mediocre and actually be good. It's a soft check to Machoke (keyword: soft), which is appreciated, and unlike Corsola or something it's not completely passive thanks to its solid 100 base spa stat. It even has Knock Off to cripple things like Klang that would otherwise be an issue. However, after the initial few days, its flaws have really started to show, the most major of which if 4MSS. Knock Off is mandatory, but then it wants Leaf Storm/Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb for other Tangelas, Sleep Powder, Toxic, and Leech Seed in the last three spots, and there honestly isn't really a great answer here. It also has to awkwardly split its evs into speed to really have a shot against Machoke, which hurts its bulk against other things. Great addition, but probably an A--ish pokemon instead of what was predicted.


This thing just feels like it's eternally disappointing. You'd think Spdef sets would work due to resisting all of Haunter and Kadabra's stabs but even with max investment Dazzling Gleam just murders, so you're really better off using Klang. Rocks seems okay but nothing special and even if it has STAB Knock Off it doesn't really feel like it makes use of the move in the way Machoke does since it doesn't hit all that hard and can't get past any grass type. Scarf sets are cute, but this mon doesn't make much of an impact in games from what I've seen of it.


This one's pretty okay. It's like a more offensive Mareanie that can still emergency switch into some moves if you need to, and it hits pretty hard with max investment even if you run eviolite. Flip Turn is pretty cool because it's so slow, so it's effectively Teleport sometimes. You can also run Tbolt on it to lure Mareanie, although if you're doing that you probably want max speed. I wish it could outspeed Tangela so it'd better be able to switch into that, but that's unfortunately not the case. It's niche, but it's definitely not bad.


It's crazy how one ability and one move made this go from a shitmon to one of the best Pokemon in the tier. It's a very good thing fat grasses are as good as they are right now, because not much else can really switch into band safely. Grassy Glide also helps tremendously for revenge killing things in a tier where most scarfers are suboptimal, although Haunter needs to be chipped and Kadabra may always be sashed, so your mileage may vary on this sometime. Sub + SD + Grassy Glide + Knock(?) also seems cool, but I've only used Band so that's the only set I can vouch for right now. It pairs really well with things like Haunter, Kadabra, or fire types, since it brings in grasses and physical walls for them to smash. Definitely worth using even if Tangela usage stays high.


Due to Haunter and Kadabra's presence in the tier, Klang (or Vullaby to a lesser extent) feels near-mandatory on teams right now as one of the more reliable checks to both of them. That being said, I don't think it's that much better than before. Shift Gear sets feel weak right now, so some combination of Resttalk + pick 2 of Volt Switch/Gear Grind/Toxic feels like the way to go. Additionally, while it can check Haunter and Kadabra, it's by no means a surefire answer to both as it's very easy to both overwhelm and bait out, especially now that Trapinch is rising in popularity specifically to remove it for Haunter/Kadabra. Expect to see it a lot, expect to use it a lot, but expect it to be dealt with a lot.


As I just mentioned, Trapinch is looking very appealing right now due to removing the most common answer to Haunter and Kadabra in Klang. This goes doubly so considering that Klang's often the only real check to them on a team given the lack of options to check them. Once it traps Klang, it's basically a sac, but first impression is nice for breaking sash on Kadabra later or revenging a weakend Thwackey. This or Machoke is the best addition to the HauntKad core if you really want to push it.

There's other things I could talk about, but these are just the ones I've used or seen the most.

tldr, ban Kadabra, Haunter, and Machoke please
 

Tack

Spin out of control~
is a Pre-Contributor
PS: Kadabra isn't broken, and please leave Haunter and Machoke alone as well, they've been through enough banning procedures.
you advocated for snom + combee in this post lol.

On to what i actually came to the thread for

So DLC came out recently-ish, lots of cool mons that showed up, got a bunch of new toys, but there’s a few mons that imo are by far the best pokemon in the metagame with no competition and I really want council to take a super stern look at all of them because they’re all incredibly constraining in builder, though I’m not sure whether 2 of them would be quickban eligible despite DLC meta essentially being a blank slate.

Apologies for decreasing quality as time went on I got tired halfway through writing

Enter Kadabra. https://pokepast.es/d59ae1de9a103d79

There are 3 main sets that’ve shown up lately, LO featuring 2 random filler moves to ruin checks of choice, Sash featuring counter and one filler move, and Psychic Terrain Expanding Force Kad. One of the main sets being sash and all Kadabras being Mguard means that Life orb sets get infinitely more deadly because if it comes in on any of your physical attackers it’s always threatening sash counter when it could just be LO trying to force a switch by doing exactly that.

It’s literally impossible to tell what Kadabra is running until it clicks a button because there’s genuinely no viable way to figure out the set on preview, and that still doesn’t reveal what 2 random moves Kad chose to bring, because every set should be psychic stab/dazzle then you can just pick between the plethora of good filler moves, be it tect/encore/counter/psyterrain/teleport/knock off/coverage of choice/sub/taunt/twave. Every single move I listed in some way allows it to undermine at least one way of answering Kadabra, and it gets to freely choose whatever it wants to undermine with no downside whatsoever.

So, you want to answer kadabra? I hope you like max Spdef Klang, because nothing else actually checks this annoying mon with genuine reliability, it’s the only mon that doesn’t get screwed over by counter that also happens to be fine vs all potential damaging options, with LO psychic doing ~25 after klang gets knocked, and kad runs knock so its safe to assume you’ll get knocked at some point. There’s also spdef vull which uh, can’t switch into LO kadabra after rocks lmfao. And as for just running a scarfer to beat it? It can just sash kill your scarfer and you’re down a mon, good job!



Ready Player Haunter. https://pokepast.es/ddaa90a7851bfdcf

Haunter is a mon that escaped a quickban prior to OMPL through the power of inactive council members and unnoticed policy changes, keep in mind this was by one vote after the QB threshold was arbitrarily increased ala lc despite nfe council being tiny comparatively. This mon should already be banned but it’s not so lets talk abt adding it to a potential QB slate since it’s still just as ridiculous.

Haunter has (imo) 2 good sets in current NFE, Specs and Subwisp. Specs is a dumb breaker that clicks funny buttons and subwisp forces switches and gets free turns to do whatever it wants. This mon is honestly nowhere near as ridiculous as Kadabra, but that’s an incredibly low bar when this mon still essentially forces you to use pokemon that aren’t quite reliable and it’s capable of crippling to check it. Some examples of this would be Klang and Vullaby which get tricked by specs and in the case of vull burned and beaten 1v1 by subwisp, you’ll note these are the same mons I mentioned as Kadabra checks which are getting incredibly overloaded now that they need to handle haunt+kad rather than just haunt, but there’s a bigger issue with haunt now, the best offensive check in galarian Linoone, which I’m on record as generally thinking is subpar prior to dlc, now needs to run the infinitely worse tox-orb set to be able to check haunt+kad leaving it super susceptible to completely losing over the long game, leaving it even better poised to take over the current meta.



Machoke got worse to deal with when the mon that crushes all of its checks and forces things it abuses onto teams got freed? Who could’ve guessed? This mon singlehandedly crushes any team capable of reliably dealing with haunt+kad, pushing a super hard weakness onto them, all the predlc arguments of this mon being broken still stand and the competition all remains worse, tangela exists now but that still gets 2hko’d by f-orb lmao. Mon hasn’t changed at all but the meta has warped in such a way where it’s even worse to deal with, the only reason this isn’t crushing teams atm is because new toy syndrome makes it so the mon is less common, it’s still capable of trading 1 for 1 with whatever you want it to. I doubt this happens as part of a qb slate since the suspect just ended but at least 1 NB voter is on record saying to put it on the QB slate if it’s still broken post dlc and that the only reason they voted no ban is bc it might not be broken post dlc. Predictably literally nothing changed cus this mon still bops anything it wants to.

Oh btw evio trapinch is absolutely nuts rn please use it.
 

Simbo

Own a doghouse?
I think Haunter should be QBed, everything else for now is fairly chill, although Kadabra should probably stay on the watchlist.

I think Haunter has gotten a lot more annoying to deal with than compared to pre-DLC. The abundance of new good special attackers, especially Kadabra, means that weakening checks becomes a lot easier, and unlike Kadabra, Haunter is much better at crippling or outright beating checks via viable set changes (Trick, WilloHex etc). Gloon getting worse (needing to run Toxic Orb again) after DLC helps Haunter a lot, and its dual STAB combo, being able to hit the likes of Tangela, Thwackey etc, harder than Kadabra is very nice. I think the current meta is too centralised around 3 big offensive threats in Haunter, Kadabra, and Machoke, with a multitude of lesser but still dangerous offensive mons like Thwackey, Raboot, Piloswine etc. The addition of Tangela is also a fairly big buff for Haunter, adding another defensive Knock user that can force some defensive Haunter checks to take the Knock. I think QBing Haunter, giving the meta and defensive Pokemon a bit of breathing room for other threats, then keeping an eye on Kadabra, and maybe Choke is the play. Probably a bit ironic that I'm advocating a Haunter ban after April or whenever that QB vote was, seems like some people still feel aggrieved by that, but I think it's worthy of a QB now.

I think Kadabra and Machoke, for now atleast, shouldn't be QBed. The main reason why they feel so oppressive is because defensive Pokemon in the tier can't keep up with all the offensive Pokemon we have rn. You have Haunter and Kadabra on the special side, with threats like Wartortle, Roselia etc still being notable, then a lot more physically offensive threats like Thwackey, Raboot, Piloswine, Machoke etc. No team really can keep up with this level of offensive pressure defensively, so any big offensive threat looks stronger than it is. Kad still does have insane set versatility, it might still be broken post-Haunt, but I think we should see if that's the case, instead of bopping him outright.

Machoke shouldn't be QBed, terrible optics and decision in general.

Tangela looks pretty interesting, being nigh on unkillable from the physical side except by like Forb Choke, who needs 2 cracks at her, but I think she can be adapted too once the tier has more room to breathe.

Tl.dr QB Haunter, keep an eye on Kad post-Haunt. It's only been three days of new meta, far too early to QB another 3 mons.
 

Greybaum

formerly uhuhuhu7
is a Tiering Contributor
Here's some of my personal thoughts on some mons being talked about, both pre-DLC and post-DLC.

:ss/machoke:
Contrary to most people, I actually do think Tangela is by far the best "counter" to Flame Orb Machoke. Granted, you do have to run a very specific set:

:ss/Tangela: @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 80 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature

This spread outspeeds Adamant, Speed-invested Machoke, and has enough bulk to take Close Combat into Bullet Punch without Eviolite, with the rest of the stats dumped into Special Attack investment.
This gives you a whopping... 80+ SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Machoke: 219-258 (72.7 - 85.7%)
Okay yeah mid-typing this that's actually still pretty insane, and you do outright lose to Jolly variants (note to anyone prepping builds for NFEPL: run that) but you're at worst denying it more than 1 kill and hopefully denying it even that!

Anyway, Flame Orb is still broken but Tangela is at least a reliable answer to Eviolite Machoke, with even offensive variants of Tangela being able to switch in and win... 66% of the time, actually, because Dynamic Punch is kinda goofy.

In all honesty though I do still think Machoke is broken. It puts such a massive strain on building and continues to break down its own counters fairly freely. I'd personally like to have some input from the guys who voted No Ban thinking DLC would improve things, and if they think, well, if DLC improved things. If their opinions are unchanged then I can't really see any justification for a quickban, but I've got my fingers crossed. Calling out you in particular right now Ho3nConfirm3d, no pressure :dusclops:

:ss/haunter: :ss/kadabra:
Haunter is still broken. DLC brought us an offensive check in Kadabra, but it also brought us more top-tier defensive Pokemon it can abuse in Tangela and Slowpoke I put Kadabra in this section too, because it's effectively the exact same thing. Factoring in Kadabra's access to Shadow Ball, the only reliable switchins appear to be incredibly passive mons like Sliggoo, Shellos, and the only two Steel-types we apparently have in Ferroseed and Klang. These happen to be the exact same Pokemon that people are relying on to check Haunter, and the lack of reliable recovery (the best coming from Wish support) means the Pokemon in question are often unable to answer both. This is made worse by two Pokemon in particular that I will refer to as "the enablers", Trapinch and Tangela.

:ss/trapinch:
Arena Trap has always been an inherently broken ability, but only really shines when it has the right abusers paired with it and gosh darn Kadabra is a fantastic abuser. It's easy enough to catch Pokemon on a double, but Pokemon like Clefairy and Slowpoke can lure in Klang/Ferroseed fairly easily even if you don't want to work your brain. I'll understand if council want to leave this mon alone and just ban Kadabra and/or Haunter but there will never be a metagame where Trapinch can be healthy, so I'd rather just see it gone at this point.

:ss/tangela: :vulpix:

Tangela is similar, but different. Similar because in general it just kinda enables Kadabra/Haunter but different in that it doesn't do it through all or nothing scenarios but instead through just whittling everything down very slowly. Knock Off is an extremely spammable move and a lot of the Tangela switchins are also notably Haunter switchins... but only "reliable" ones with Eviolite up. Klang, Roselia and Ferroseed are big examples here. Tangela is also a solid answer to offensive pressure that Kadabra & Haunter face, easily tanking attacks from Galarian Linoone, Piloswine and Scarf Thwackey. Tangela is also an "enabler" for Gloom. Here we have a secondary sun sweeper that can click Knock Off on every Grass-resist, set up fairly freely on the likes of Klang while it's forced to sit in to stall out Sun turns.
Here's a particularly nasty set I've been running on Sun:
Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
- Growth
- Substitute
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
Enough speed to outpace Timid Kadabra and the rest just goes bulk.
4 Atk Klang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 54-66 (16.8 - 20.5%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 72-86 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- 25% chance to break Substitute
This mon is honestly just nutty. Pretty much none of the standard Gloom counterplay applies here.
I feel Tangela's presence is unhealthy - I'm already seeing people run Overheat and Freeze Dry on Physically-based attackers like Raboot and Piloswine but these aren't even reliable lures considering the chip you need in advance. Tangela's presence alone also practically mandates Machoke if you want to run Pokemon like Piloswine or Carvanha because you really aren't getting through this thing without Knock Off even if you run mixed coverage like Freeze Dry or Ice Beam respectively. The Chlorophyll set may or may not also be broken independantly, requiring either Vulpix, Heat Rock, Tangela, or some combination to be banned, but it's probably best we wait on that to see if Sun becomes a major problem in the upcoming tours we've got going on. I also fully acknowledge that I'm the only one with this viewpoint on Tangela right now.

With the broken mons out of the way, here's a scattering collection of other thoughts:
:slowpoke: Incredibly good, A to A+ worthy edit: ok fine A- is more accurate I admit I overhyped this a bit . A slow teleport is a godsend, it's another mon that can answer Wartortle and it's a decent catch-all mon that can even handle mons like Kadabra barring Shadow Ball variants.
:thwackey: Grassy Glide makes Band much more viable than before, just an all around good mon with a lot of underexplored potential with Grassy Terrain
:klang: Speaking of, try this core out:
Thwackey @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Klang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Steel Roller
- Volt Switch

Steel Roller has 130BP under Grassy Terrain and is a fantastic nuke to take out mons like Machoke & Tangela after Knock Off & chip. They also pivot for each other and all around are just very very fun to use. Cannot recommend highly enough for those of you who are already bored of spamming Kadabra/Haunter.
:lickitung: Only fits on specific builds but it seems to do its job well enough.
:carvanha: Extremely underutilised at the moment. Looking forward to someone pulling this out in No Johns / NFEPL and just wiping the floor with it, because I don't think anyone's really found the best partners to pair it with just yet but they're definitely out there.
:dartrix: Puts a lot of pressure on a lot of common Tangela cores people are running at the moment. Sucker Punch is really nice for Haunter too. Should probably see more use.
:charjabug: It got Skitter Smack as an alternative to X-Scissor that drops the opponent's Special Attack one stage; extremely good vs Hattrem and I can see Webs being a real threat later on.
:roselia: Also under-used at the moment, I expect to see a lot of this (especially Offensive sets) if Kadabra and/or Haunter goes.
:krokorok: this mon sucks LOL

tom hanks for reading
 
Last edited:

Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
(Thanks SBPC for formatting most of this making my life 10 times easier)
The council decided to hold a Quickban Vote for Haunter. The vote count needed for a ban was 4/6.

:Haunter: Since the beginning of SS NFE, Haunter has always been an immensely powerful threat to the tier with its insane wallbreaking ability, and come DLC, it's enablers only grew in number as it danced to 2HKO the entire tier with relative ease, due to the insane power of its choice specs set, alongside its WispHex set, which saw less usage but was also a rather effective wallbreaker.

haunter votes.png

The reasoning from each individual council member can be found in the spoiler below:
ho3n haunt vote.png
crys haunt vote.png
marj haunt vote.png
quags haunt vote.png
SB haunt vote.png
85 haunt vote.png

85 haunt vote 2.png

Haunter has been banned from NFE after a unanimous vote (6/6). Tagging The Immortal to implement this.
 
out of no johns, thought i'd do a small and rushed team dump. basically a wrap of my first couple of teams since dlc, some of these may suck and most of them were just based around pokemons i thought were cute or gimmicks. they got me to semis so i'm sure some of them are at least decent. feel free to steal them and edit them as much as you like!

:charjabug: :loudred: :mareanie: :tangela: :piloswine: :vullaby:
first team made after dlc drop, based on loudred with web support and a regen core. basically you set webs, click toxic a bunch of times, click tspikes for the ones who get away, chip chip chip with tang mare pilo and vull, knock the gorsolas and all the walls, when everything is about at half you just use loudred and sweep. this is def one of the less good of the bunch but it's probably the only loudred team you'll ever see
:wartortle: :brionne: :raboot: :piloswine: :tangela: :vullaby:
water spam i thought could be cool, knock support tangela + vull works really well when paired w 4 wallbreakers, brionne + raboot pivot core is also pre solid since brionne lures in grass/steel types, flip turn is also a great addition for it i think just much more momentum than it used to have. once things are low enough then you use tortle like one does or you can even use it early game and then kill stuff w brionne and raboot
:thwackey: :kadabra: :charjabug: :piloswine: :staryu: :raboot:
thwackey go brr and staryu go star! team i wrapped up in 2minutes idt it's good but i wanted to try spin staryu since it actually is a bit more offensive than non shell smash spin tortle, that's really about it oh and also needed to try sd thwackey after hearing so much about it
:porygon: :charjabug: :wartortle: :piloswine: :raboot: :tangela:
these teams are actually pretty similar now that i see them this is basically a mix between team 1 and team 2 but with a support tortle and choice specs pory who btw hits 663spa w download boost, just thought i'd say this one more time
:porygon: :trapinch: :roselia: :corsola-galar: :raboot: :farfetch
forgot what was the goal of that team is but here you are using bulky pory (not as good as offensive pory) trapinch roselia, and corsola galar who is ev'd to 2hko tangela with ice beam (ye idk), cb raboot because this mon is fire and farfetch'd galar because charja + pilo is an awful core and farfetch'd seemed like a good idea, it really isn't good
:hakamo-o: :piloswine: :linoone-galar: :mareanie: :tangela: :seadra:
wanted to try hakamo-o, still don't really know how to use it but i guess it's good? also wanted to use a choice scarf pokemon because it's crazy how we don't use any of those in nfe, decided to roll with seadra because it has great stats and a better spa than brionne, you only really need hydro pump and ice beam as well. oh and also pin missle linoone because kadabra sucks, now quick tip adamant linoone actually ohkos kadabra without relying on hitting 3 times while jolly does so you can use adamant torb like this
:machoke: :vullaby: :roselia: :morgrem: :raboot: :piloswine:
wanted to use nasty plot morgrem because morgrem is cool and burning jealousy has yet to be used on it, also wanted to try out choice scarf raboot as revenge killer which like many found it a bit disappointing, also wanted to use toxic machoke, idk what to say about this team, i think it's ok could be better was just meant to do well vs set up sweepers i think
:tangela: :skrelp: :palpitoad: :porygon: :marill: :lampent:
last but not least!!!! my first try at rain trick room in nfe, shoutout to uhuhuhu7 for helping me with it, team is really fun to use and i encourage using it when tired of using the same mons or just feeling like using weird things, skrelp is actually pre broken when supported, marill isn't as good as i thought it would be and porygon is still cute
 
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Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
Post DLC Quickban Vote 3!!

This time Arena Trap and Kadabra were put on the chopping block. Here are the votes:

trap kad votes.png

Below you can find the reasoning from different council members. Reasoning from some of the members will be editted in later on.

85 kad trap vote.png
jett kad trap vote.png
marj kad trap vote.png
sb kad trap vote.png

Arena Trap has been banned from SS NFE. Tagging The Immortal to implement this.
Kadabra remains but the council will be monitoring it closely and we will likely review it in a couple of weeks time.
 

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