NFE NFE Metagame Discussion

As a follow-up to the post I did at the last DLC release, I'm going to cover the new pokemon I think have a shot at viability from this one.


:golbat:
Honestly, I have no clue what to think of this. It was banned last gen, but I don't really see it being overwhelming?. As a defogger, its type is pretty good, countering Thwackey and Machoke and just generally being fat even if Kadabra murders it. I guess it could also run offensive sets like Nasty Plot or Scarf and boots is just generally good for it if it can fit it over eviolite, but I really don't know what it does yet. It's just a huge question mark for me.

:electabuzz:
So going into this I thought Electabuzz was going to be really unhealthy in the same way as Raboot or Pika, just a really strong wallbreaker that also happens to be an incredible pivot. And while it is all those things, with the best speed tier NFE can offer and boots to make sure it can't get worn down by pivoting, it also has literally no way to intercept volt switch blockers thanks to the removal of hidden power. (I guess if you want to be that guy you can run Ice Punch for a Gabite lure, but it doesn't even 2HKO defensive Gabite so) It'll be good still, probably, but require more substantial team support than last gen since Focus Blast isn't going to break past the Gabites or Marshtomps or Palpitoads of the tier. At least it'll make Chinchou a fringe pick again!

:magmar:
Magmar's going to be a monster in this meta, specs goes Brrrrr and it even picked up Scorching Sands to hit Mareanie and Lampent on the switch. Its Speed tier is good but really unfortunate as it's one point slower than Raboot and thus can't force it to play sucker mindgames, but it's good enough to shred fat teams and it can take a Glide from Thwackey if it has to, meaning it can come in and attempt to force it out if you don't have a better option available. Fire/Fighting/Ground coverage just doesn't have a lot of switchins and it'll be able to abuse that really well, especially so on Webs.

:dragonair:
I really want this to be good but it's probably totally outclassed by Fraxure except as a special attacker, which it's not even that good at because of base 70 attack. Any sort of niche it has as an attacker would probably come from Espeed, which may or may not be worthwhile.

:grovyle:
This is now the best Unburden/Grassy Seed abuser in the tier, which is an unbelievably low bar to clear but it can probably see some usage as part of dedicated grassy terrain teams. It notably gets Acrobatics and Grassy Glide, so you could have two Acro Thwackeys! Base 65 attack is not good and without hidden power it gets no special coverage, so it'll probably be bad but fun to experiment with for a bit. I think a Sub/Seed unburden set with Acro and a STAB move could also work, since it's the fastest thing in the tier after unburden and can punish grasses/combusken with acro if you invest enough into attack. I'd love to see this be good even if it probably won't be all that great.

:combusken:
Mercifully, Combusken missed out on Close Combat and U-Turn that Blaziken got, otherwise we'd probably have to ban it. Monferno getting stopped at the Galarian Border was the best thing to ever happen to combusken, as it lost the biggest reason not to use it. It can go physical or special and since it resists grassy glide it'll be a huge headache to deal with after a few turns of Speed Boost. Its coverage will probably still let it down a bit, as it does have some hard walls, but those probably depend on what set it chooses to run and you opponent would have to scout that out first.

:marshtomp:
Does marshtomp things, it sets rocks and spreads status and invests into physical or special bulk. Nothing really changed for it, and it'll still be fine here. I could see Palpitoad actually being more legitimate competition for it this time around, as the water immunity is actually pretty crucial with SS Wartortle being a huge threat and Marshtomp getting owned by it, but it'll still be a good pokemon, doubly so if something like a Pikachu/Magneton unban happens.

:lairon:
It gets Body Press! It'll still be mediocre to bad but Body Press is at least kind of cute. Iron Defense + Body Press shenanigans could be fun if Gorsola didn't exist.

:metang:
I think this and Gabite were the good offensive rockers the tier was desperately missing. Losing Pursuit actually isn't all that terrible in a world where Haunter doesn't exist, although not trapping Kadabra is kind of lame. The meta is fairly hostile to it, as it doesn't like Raboot or Machoke and Thwackey with Knock or even Drain Punch can be a pain for it to deal with it, but it's a rocker with real offensive pressure attached to it and that's something the tier's completely lacked until now.

:gabite:
this might not be the most meta-warping drop, but it'll probably be the one with the most consistent impact on the tier. Rocks sets are a godsend for the tier since as previously mentioned we just haven't had a good offensive rocker at all (no, Krokorok doesn't count) and it can mildly annoy Raboot with Rough Skin on its u-turns. It even has some customization options like Roar, Taunt, and Toxic. Scarf sets will also probably be solid, especially with Dual Chop to revenge Kadabra, and I could even see a silly Hone Claws/Scale Shot/Dragon Rush/EQ set being run as a meme every once in a while. This is by far the drop I'm most excited for.

:omanyte:
It's probably a worse Wartortle, but it notably has Power Herb Meteor Beam to let it murder Mareanie and just generally nuke stuff that Wartortle might have issues getting over at +3 with Hydro and stuff. Wartortle will still probably be better in the long run since it's noticeably faster (Omanyte actually needs Timid to outspeed Kadabra at +2, which cuts into your power somewhat) and Thwackey owns them both anyways, but it seems like it could be a real option in the tier. For what it's worth, Tirtouga is worse in every way but can also do smash + meteor beam and has Sturdy to stop Thwackey from revenging it, but it's still bad so /shrug

:archen:
Lowkey, with Boots it actually seems like it might work as an offensive pokemon? It gets Dual Wingbeat and hits really hard with it, Edgequake is great, and it even gets Knock Off to pester switchins, so a set like this could show merit. Base 70 speed isn't fantastic but it qualifies as "good enough" in this tier, outspeeding up to Modest Gastly and it hits really hard with base 112 attack. Possibly a cool mon that probably slipped under the radar so far.

:amaura:
It can set hail and rocks in one slot and is therefore probably better than Snowpix on dedicated hail teams. It also gets Meteor Beam to nuke stuff now with Power Herb and maybe RP + Meteor Beam could be cute, but it probably won't see any use outside of enabling Snowshrew.

:poipole:
NP + Beast Boost seems cute but without hidden power or Z-Moves its coverage is depressingly awful (Poison/Dragon/Normal) and therefore it probably won't be viable at all. Maybe it can set Tspikes? I don't know.

This seems like a good DLC pack overall, with enough pokemon that'll have influence on the tier but nothing obviously broken that wasn't already here before (*cough* Machoke *cough*). I'm also curious to see if there'll be any unbans and if so, how they'll influence the tier.
 

SBPC

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Hey friends, with DLC 2 coming closer the NFE Council has decided to make a major decision regarding the tier. With the release of Crown Tundra, NFE will be unbanning a lot of pokemon from the metagame, in order to see how they fair in the new, stronger meta.

The NFE Council was given a slate comprised of every pokemon on the current NFE Banlist.
dlc_unbans_and_bans.png

The list of pokemon returning to the metagame is as follows: Gurdurr, Haunter, Ivysaur, Mr. Mime-Galar, Pawniard, Pikachu, Rufflet, Sneasel.
With this in mind, the NFE banlist is down to only these pokemon: Chansey, Doublade, Magneton, Porygon2, Rhydon, Scyther, Type: Null.
Council also briefly discussed Golbat, but unanimously agreed that a ban on it this early would be a bad idea.


We hope these changes will bring forth an incredibly fun metagame, and we encourage you to explore it to its depths, while posting any findings you have on this thread.
 

Ho3nConfirm3d

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
First impressions of "The Brokens!"These takes are hot and fresh out of the oven, but you guys gotta taste em and let me know if they're half baked or not.

:sneasel: - Broken - Sets: Choice Band, SD - Checks: :pawniard:, :gurdurr:, :machoke:, :combusken:, :piloswine: | :lairon:, :linoone-galar:, :raboot: (Choice Scarf?)
Sneasel is likely the most broken mon in the meta due to its Speed and STAB attack combo. The pressure between the immediate power from Choice Band or the threat of Swords Dance breaks too many cores and mons. STAB Knock Off is a treasure in NFE, and coming off a great Attack and Speed really limits switch-in opportunities. The checks I listed don't appreciate losing Eviolite obviously, and they then become more susceptible to Icicle Crash breaking them. Offensively pressuring it is the way to go with Mach Punch Gurdurr and maybe something like Choice Scarf Raboot if that catches on, but it's limited. Even some of the bulkiest mons in the meta like Piloswine and Lairion can't take its Fighting coverage, meaning with minimal support and chip damage, even tanks fall. This makes the frailty of Sneasel less of an issue as it just breaks through its checks. Although it should be noted that physically bulky mons can still take good trades with Sneasel while healthy, the Sneasel player is usually getting more from these tradeoffs with the teamsupport it as, or can avoid them till late-game and still be successful. Unfortunately, I don't see the meta adapting to Sneasel anytime soon, and it's worth it imo to put it back in BL.

:pawniard: - Wait it out - Sets: Swords Dance, Stealth Rock - Checks: :gurdurr:, :machoke:, :combusken:, :gabite:, :marshtomp:, :electabuzz: (Focus Blast) | :piloswine:, :lairon:, :linoone-galar: (Body Press), :raboot:, :carkol:, :magmar:, :hakamo-o:, :thwackey: (Eviolite + Drain Punch), :krokorok:
What changed with DLC2 that could make Pawniard less broken? In general, there's a handful of defensive checks and more faster attackers with super effective coverage that can stomach a Sucker Punch and 1HKO. Previously, the most common offensive attackers like Galarian Mr. Mime and Haunter couldn't check it, but now there are Eviolite attackers like Combusken, Electabuzz, Thwackey, and Magmar that can stomach a +2 Sucker Punch and revenge kill if need be. More defensive checks like Gabite, Marshtomp, and Larion (baring no Brick Break) work as well. It's totally a tough call on Pawniard, as it shares a lot of the same broken aspects as Sneasel, but to me it's too early to tell for sure. I think adaptions can work to pressure it better this time around, and the meta has a lot of room to be explored. So again, I'm not adamant in saying it's not broken, because it totally has everything it needs to be overwhelming, but it isn't as obvious after Day 1 as Sneasel is.

:gurdurr: - Wait it out - Sets: Bulk Up, Defog, Florb - Checks: :haunter:, :kadabra:, :rufflet:, :corsola-galar:, :ivysaur:, :golbat:, :tangela:, :charjabug:, :clefairy: | :gloom:, :koffing:, :togetic:
The offensive upgrade to Machoke, Gurdurr does a lot for the meta right now as a bulky offensive glue to counter Pawniard and check Sneasel. This time around, Gurdurr checks include more offensive mons like Kadabra and potential stallbreaker Ivysaur sets (ala ZU), as well as old favorites like Haunter and Rufflet. More over, defensive variants of Golabt, Tangela, Charjabug, and g-cors still work as decent Knock Off sponges that can take Gurdurr's boosted hits and deal with it in one way or the other. Nicher options in the meta like Koffing and Gloom could come out too as checks, but of course have their own downsides. All the potential of unhealthiness is there right now for Gurdurr, but it isn't immediate. If it chooses to have coverage for Faires or Flyings, then it'll be easier to check with other mons. All in all, the power level increased drastically with the unbans and DLC2 to the point that I think Gurdurr fits with the rest of the bunch rather than breaking the mold.

I like a lot of the meta rn and it's fun to see some of NFE's top threats and staples from last gen return. It's great to have more Defog options and Knock Off switch-ins, and I think the roles of the meta are the most fleshed out and variable as they've ever been. On that note, was there anything that I missed that should have been addressed with these three? Stallbreaker Golbat sets could be super dangerous, but are somewhat surprised with the popularity of Sneasel and Pawn in the meta, as well as the use of strong coverage against Poison- and Flying-types already existing in the meta. Rufflet is another unban worth looking at for sure, but also has issues with more Steel-types like Metang and Larion discouraging Brave Bird spam on CB sets, and a ton of fast pressure from Electabuzz and Galarian Mr. Mime for Sub Bulk Up sets. Regardless, anything can happen and I'm just trying to get the ball rollin for some discussion :)
 

Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
Hey frens, the SS NFE Council has unanimously agreed to quickban Sneasel. (Tagging The Immortal to implement) :sneasel:

Since its unbanning, Sneasel has proven itself far too strong of an offensive powerhouse for the rest of the metagame to handle. Its Choice Band set is extremely difficult to switch into due to combination of its insane Attack stat and excellent STAB moves in Triple Axel and Knock Off which are two absurdly strong attacks which hit the entire metagame. It can also trade off some immediate power by utilising a Swords Dance set with Heavy-Duty Boots, which has the added bonus of being able to switch moves which makes it nearly impossible for defensive cores to handle once it has a boost. Arguably, the best way to deal with Sneasel's non-Heavy-Duty Boots sets, are with entry hazards, but hazard removal is better than ever with Pokemon like Gurdurr and Golbat back in NFE. Despite its low defensive and poor defensive typing, Sneasel is extremely difficult to revenge kill due to being the fastest Pokemon in the metagame. It is only really pressured offensively by the few viable Scarf users or Pokemon with priority moves such as Mach Punch Gurdurr and Extreme Speed Pikachu, although Sneasel can still KO some of these Pokemon if they are weakened with its Ice Shard. Overall the council feels that there isn’t sufficient counterplay for Sneasel to be kept in NFE and have decided to send it back to NFE Ubers.

Going forward, for the next few weeks, you can expect the Council to have a quickban vote every Sunday with the Pokemon being voted on being announced in a post in this thread, in advance. Currently the planned Pokemon to be voted on will be Golbat and all the recent unbans (apart from Sneasel since it's being banned now). We hope this will allow the community some time to provide some feedback to help the council decide whether to quickban these Pokemon or not.

Also keep your eyes peeled for an upcoming NFE forum tour coming soon!!
 
First impressions on the unbans/Golbat:


Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 172 SpA / 84 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off
- Surf / Volt Switch

I think this is the optimal set for Pikachu right now, and I'm not even all that sure it needs a STAB move to function since FakeSpeed is its main issue and you want a way to cripple grounds and other switchins as opposed to just getting blocked. Speed's enough to outrun Lampent while still being able to 2HKO Evio Pilo with surf. Otherwise, just the rest into attack to hit really really hard.

We still don't have adequate defensive counterplay to this. New grounds are nice to make it think twice before Volt Switching but it's perfectly capable of knocking them and switching out, and because none of our good ground types have recovery, you can just chip them over time with knock/surf until they eventually get into KO range. FakeSpeed is still insane and forces out so much, as we know, and revenging it isn't as simple as "put something in that's faster or has priority" thanks to Espeed's +2 priority. If your RKer ever gets into espeed range, it just loses, and then you probably lose too. It also has a ton of opportunities to get in and cause havoc due to the general offensive pace of the meta, since it forces out a lot of the top threats by itself. This is the pokemon I'm most comfortable with banning right now, I think it is the most broken of the unbans.


Mr. Mime-Galar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin / Nasty Plot
- Freeze-Dry
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

This is probably the basic Mime set that you'll see most often, with the first move depending on team support largely. You could theoretically run NP Spin but giving up Focus Blast seems really inadvisable since then you're walled by every steel type ever. Shadow Ball's also an option but it's really hard to want to give up any of the moves here.

Mr. Mime-Galar @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Screen Cleaner
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Freeze-Dry
- Focus Blast
- Trick

This set probably isn't as good since a lot of the draw to Mime is its coverage, but Trick is broken in a meta with no absorbers where everything wants eviolite so /shrug. Scarf sounds funny if you want to become the fastest thing alive and get the drop on unsuspecting Electabuzzes. Specs Focus Blast does 2HKO both Ferro and SpD Klang, which is pretty nice.

It's easy to compare this to Kadabra, since they're both fast psychic types that hit hard and likely compete with eachother for a teamslot. Kadabra is noticeably faster, which doesn't really matter since only three pokemon outspeed it without a boost and it ties Linoone, Kadabra has a larger movepool and magic guard, which makes it noticeably more difficult to revenge kill without Pikachu since sash is the best Kadabra set right now. Mime, on the other hand, is more difficult to directly switch into thanks to having the perfect combination of STABs and Coverage to hit every usual Kadabra switchin for Super-effective damage. This doesn't mean it obliterates all the usual Kadabra checks, as Spd Ferro/Klang have enough bulk to avoid the 2HKO with Focus Blast if they haven't lost their eviolite, or avoid the OHKO from +2 Focus Blast. This isn't to say these are surefire answers, as with the proper team support (or running trick on mime, which is a one-shot deal but can work) it can break through them, but it does need that extra level of team support. I could see it being problematic but I think it's fine to leave it in the meta for a little longer, since I could also see the meta developing around it just fine. And another spinner is always nice, too.


Haunter @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam / Energy Ball
- Trick

This is still haunter's best set, since the draw to it is just hitting really really hard with its STAB moves. Energy Ball is a much more legit option now with the influx of grounds in the tier, letting you do stuff like this:

252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 272-320 (79.7 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Haunter Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Marshtomp: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Worth noting that Gleam's still a viable option to hit Pawniard on the switch, but most other ghost or poison resists hate Shadow Ball (Gabite), die to Energy Ball (most ground types not named Gabite), or are stuff Haunter has to settle for hitting neutrally and trying to wear down anyways (Ferro, Klang).

You could run something like LO Wisp/Hex/Sludge Wave/EBall or Gleam but that requires a lot more setup just for a slightly stronger hit on Klang/Ferro that doesn't even 2HKO anyways.

Same boat as Mime, it's extremely difficult to switch into and a lot of stuff you'd use to check it can only just barely do so and has to rely on clicking rest after a hit or two. The influx of ground types to dissuade sludge wave sort of helps, but they all hate taking moves that aren't sludge wave from it. I don't really feel the need to elaborate too much since it was banned a lot more recently than mime, but like Mime I feel like it could stay a little longer but still has a solid chance to be broken long-term.


Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance / Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch

The nature basically depends on if you want to get ahead of stuff like Lampent or not, as Adamant outspeeds up to Jolly Piloswine anyways. SD is probably better, but Stealth Rock can work if you want to compress a Rocker here.

It's a physical attacker that gives zero fucks about the standard Gorsola set, which is already huge. Sure, Gorsola can run wisp for it but the opportunity cost of not running whirlpool is pretty big. STAB Knock Off is a pain to switch into, but we have enough things that do it and there's enough pokemon running around that can force it into sucker mindgames or just tank a sucker and kill it back. Mostly just echoing Ho3n here that it doesn't feel that overwhelming yet even if it looks that way on paper.


Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- High Horsepower

While this isn't the only Gurdurr set, obviously, this is the one I've had the most success with currently. It's not a perfect Defogger, since it takes spikes damage, but if you really wanted you could run boots. I wouldn't recommend it though, since the main selling point of Gurdurr is its bulk. BU sets are decent but you're almost always going to have coverage issues and flame orb sets are done better by Machoke due to the higher speed. Maybe Taunt sets could be worthwhile?

I'm gonna be honest, Gurdurr feels fine and shouldn't be banned right now. Obviously, it's monstrously bulky and fairly strong, but it doesn't feel overly strong and the bulk is nice, to the point where it can 1v1 a lot of offensive pokemon from full health, it doesn't ever really feel overwhelming. It's nice as a stop-check that you can just throw in on something, but it gets worn down really quickly due to taking all forms of hazard damage and having no real recovery. There's a reason Machoke (the closest comparison to Gurdurr even if they play somewhat differently) started investing into speed instead of using its bulk to take hits. Bulk up sets have some merit, but Drain Punch is really weak as a STAB move and no matter what combination of moves you pick you're always walled by something. It's definitely not this huge threat to sweep or wallbreak that I was expecting, and stuff like GCors/Clef/Golbat/Mareanie/Tang nearly always feels like a safe switchin. It can't even DynamicPunch its way through its checks like Machoke can, so while it may just be placebo it feels easier to check since there's no danger of randomly dying to confusion. Maybe it'll be a problem in the future once the meta slows down but it just isn't one right now.


Ivysaur @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball

This isn't the only Ivysaur set but it's the only one that could even remotely be considered broken. Run on sun, click Growth, and attempt to profit.
So, Ivysaur might just be the unban I've seen the least of so far. While I kept hearing about its potential for the tier outside of sun, currently it seems like the only times people are really using Ivysaur is on sun teams, where it's obviously the star. However, I don't think currently you could make an argument for Ivysaur sun to be broken at all, and a lot of that is probably due to the meta right now being really offensive. Sun isn't special in that regard, and having to run a completely useless pokemon to enable it really isn't a good idea when every teamslot matters right now. Like Gurdurr, once the meta slows down I could see Ivysaur being an issue on sun, in which case the play is absolutely banning Ivysaur and not sun since it's pretty clear that the only remotely problematic thing about sun would be Ivysaur, but it sure isn't one now.



Rufflet (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 72 SpD / 84 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Brave Bird

Zero clue if the nature is right but I think I have the EVs right here. Aerial Ace could be an option here, I'm not too familiar with this particular Rufflet set.

Rufflet (M) @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Aerial Ace
- Close Combat
- U-turn

Rufflet could actually work as a scarfer if you can keep Rocks off the field, since it has a habit of dying quickly. Sub BU is still probably better but there's some merit to choice sets, too.

Probably the least broken of all the unbans we got right now. Sub BU sets up on Corsola, which is actually solid (I've experimented with Ice Beam Corsola for this, to mixed results) but it's pretty slow and thus is revenge killed really easily if it's not behind a sub. Choice sets I've barely seen but are still good in theory. The issue is mono-attack sets have to deal with stuff like Ebuzz or Lairon that just naturally resist Brave Bird even after a boost, and choice sets get worn down easily and have to make a read every time they come in, where the payoff isn't always as extreme as something like Haunter. Like all the others in this post below Haunter, it isn't really broken right now but could possibly be after a few ban waves.


Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- U-turn

Speed is for Pikachu aiming to creep Lampent. You could always go higher if you want.

Golbat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Heat Wave
- Giga Drain

You could conceivably put Eviolite on this, but I was running it on a screens team which sorta makes up the difference. Air Slash could be slotted in somewhere if you're really afraid of Choke/Gurdurr. Giga Drain 2HKOs Pilo, which is why I put it on there, but unless you have screens up you still have to be really careful around it. These definitely aren't the only Golbat sets, just the ones I've been using. Feel free to experiment!

Golbat isn't broken. I feel pretty confident that it's actually a really healthy addition to this tier, as it's the best Thwackey answer we have now while having enough bulk to handle the fighting types and can soft check Raboot in a pinch. It's also kept in check by the myriad of Electric and Psychic types running around, although I expect this to decrease over time given that Pikachu and Mr. Mime are probably meeting a banhammer. Offensive sets are fun, both of the offensive defog or nasty plot variety, but don't feel too broken. Maybe stallbreaker bat could be an issue but there isn't really any stall teams around to break. I'm not even that sure of a "later it'll be broken", it honestly just feels like a solid addition to the tier.

Overall, with Sneasel gone the metagame's a lot better, and still very offensive with a lot to have to cover, but hopefully a ban or two will help stabilize it.

tldr, I'm only really certain on a Pikachu ban with mixed-pro feelings on Mr. Mime and Haunter but would be willing a wait a week, nothing else really stands out to me at this time as being a problem.
 

Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
The council will be voting on :gurdurr: Gurdurr , :mr. mime-galar: Mr. Mime-Galar, :pikachu: Pikachu , and :rufflet: Rufflet. We would appreciate any feedback on these Pokemon and we are willing to add more Pokemon to the slate if there is enough push from the community. The results of this vote will be announced on Sunday.
 
Hey, so I'm a bit newer to the NFE tier but I think I've played enough in my life and in NFE since DLC to get a good idea for the tier (also btw thanks Miyami~~~ lmao I know we've played like, a ridiculous amount of times in the past week but the ladder be how it is).

Suspect mons
:gurdurr: Not really broken, I think it's definitely a good wall and obviously Knock Off is a very spammable move. I don't think there's really enough "data" to think this mon is broken yet. Worth keeping an eye on though.

:mr. mime-galar: Mime is so ridiculously good. It can outspeed and crush most offensive teams without good priority (and Pika/Thwackey can't really switch in on it so something has to die). Ice/Psychic/Fighting is amazing coverage and there aren't any good mons that can actually beat this defensively either. Ban-worthy for sure.

:pikachu: While Fakespeed is strong, Pikachu suffers from heavy 4MSS and is always missing some sort of necessary coverage to beat the opposing team. Go for Knock > Surf, get walled by Pilo. Go for Knock > GKnot, get walled by Marshtomp and Palpitoad. Go for Surf/GKnot/Volt Tackle > Knock, can't really spread the Knock around. If Volt is the only electric move, you get into tricky situations. Pikachu is definitely good, and it's existence can stress teambuilding, but it isn't really that great *yet*. Don't ban

:rufflet: This is literally fine. Do not ban

:thwackey: Dude this needs to go. Like yeah I'm probably overreacting but acro is ridiculously strong at +2. I wouldn't say quickban this but it's lookin kinda sus

Mons I really like right now
:togetic: I haven't played with this too much but NP is very heat with Mareanie usage down. Can check thwackey, raboot, etc. while fairy/fire coverage is v nice.

:magmar: Taunt evio Magmar is a pretty good "wallbreaker" that can bust defensive cores. Yeah yeah I get it like every bulky water switches in but this can stop clef/gorsola/ferro/golbat/vullaby so it's good in my book. Also specs is ridiculously strong

:lairon: Ok ok hear me out, CB lairon is busted. At max speed you are outspeeding wartortle and like every other wall and head smash is just a busted move. This isn't obviously gonna be S tier stuff but I'm a fan

:raboot: This goes on every team and every set is good. Not busted, but this has so much variety to where you can feign Scarf, HDB, and Band and really surprise some people if they guess your set wrong. CB is my favorite set just because you like 2hko everything but boots is hella good too.

:electabuzz: Big fan of evio buzz but you can run anything on this mon and it will put in work. Boots, scarf, specs, etc. (is there any other set? lol)

:dwebble: Pretty good suicide lead that can 1v1 hattrem. Probably the best suicide lead tbh
 
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The council will be voting on :gurdurr: Gurdurr , :mr. mime-galar: Mr. Mime-Galar, :pikachu: Pikachu , and :rufflet: Rufflet. We would appreciate any feedback on these Pokemon and we are willing to add more Pokemon to the slate if there is enough push from the community. The results of this vote will be announced on Sunday.
I have played a fair amount of nfe recently so I'm gonna give my thoughts on the mons that will be voted on.

Gurdurr
I don't believe this guy is broken at all, I find gurdurr to be just a better version of machoke and we have enough counterplay with the great amount of fight checks in the tier: Clef, Golbat, G-Cors, Mareanie, Koffing etc. Furthermore we have a lot of metagame defining threats like the psychics, rufflet and more that offensively check it. So for me Gurdurr is totally not broken, Do Not Ban.

Mr Mime Galar
Very broken in my eyes, has very limited counterplay, mons that are faster than it (unboosted) are literally just Kadabra, which would need Sball, and Ebuzz which can eat a hit or 2 with evio but is obviously not a great check since it doesnt kill back. Besides that its very hard to wear down if its boots and evio can very easily get a nasty plot off. you would oftenly need to rely on priority from the likes of fakespeed pikachu and sucker punch raboot. scarfers generally suck in this tier (but that's maybe a post for a different day) so revenging it with those isnt gonna be easy either. While there are checks to mime-g with things like: sdef sball g-cors, metang and slowpoke I dont believe this is gonna cut it. sball from g-cors isnt doing that much to evio variants, metang lacks reliable recovery and slowpoke loses to freeze dry variants. To conclude: too fast, coverage is phenomenal and can always find a winpath vs "counterplay". BAN!

Pikachu
Pikachu is still broken. we gained some counterplay to it with gabite and marshtomp which are obviously great additions but just like before pikachu will wear them down during the game with like fake out chip, knock on the switch or a surf. just because of this I feel the need to add multiple pikachu checks on 1 team. I dont think I need to write much about this really, pikachu still does what it did before and it will espeed all your worn down mons lategame. Its not as broken as Mr Mime Galar but still broken enough for a ban for me, BAN!

Rufflet
Honestly haven't used it and havent seen it much yet. but that should say enough to be honest, its not in the ideal place right now with this metagame where we have Mime-g and Pika running around. Its not having enough opportunities to set up in my eyes and things like choice band are of course very strong but its not fast enough to be broken. For me Do Not Ban for now, this could change in the future depending on how the meta will shape out.

Then there is one final thing Id like to address with this vote and that is Golbat.

Golbat is currently I think still a healthy mon in the tier BUT if the council may end up banning Mr Mime Galar and Pikachu we have lost 2 excellent offensive checks to the bat. Obviously we still have other great mons left in the tier but Im afraid that Golbat will end up unhealthy. I think Super Fang variants are one of the more dangerous sets in the meta since our flying resists, dont have reliable recovery so most mons that are knocked off will be taking a decent chunk from brave bird, coupled with its great speed it might be very overwhelming for a lot of teams since it will slowly super fang your brave bird switch-ins down. While that 80 base attack might not seem much at first glance it will bite you in the ass if you dont have enough fast checks to it like Kadabra and Electabuzz. I know this might be a bit of a controversial one but this bat has great defenses, great speed and decent attack to show you why its probably one of the most metagame defining threats and maybe even more than that.

thats it from me for now :blobthumbsup:
(people please play more nfe the tier is cool)
 
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Greybaum

formerly uhuhuhu7
is a Tiering Contributor
SS NFE Post DLC 2 Quickban Vote #2

Hey frens, the council have concluded voting on Gurdurr, Mr. Mime-Galar, Pikachu, and Rufflet. A majority of at least 60% (3/5) of the votes were required in order to ban each Pokemon.

DLC 2 Vote 2.png

Individual votes and reasoning can be found in this spreadsheet.

As a result, Gurdurr, Mr. Mime-Galar, Pikachu, and Rufflet all remain NFE.
With only one Ban vote being made out of a possible twenty, the NFE Council do not see merit in re-voting on the aforementioned Pokemon over the course of the next week. However, we do recognise that there has been some disagreement over the viability of :pikachu: Pikachu and :mr mime-galar: Mr. Mime-Galar specifically, and we'd really like to hear from more of the community on these two Pokemon in particular as we discuss the potential of a Suspect Test down the line.

Also, please join me in welcoming xavgb to the NFE Council!
xavgb.png
 
After playing a pretty decent amount this past month, here are some thoughts on the metagame. Overall, I do think everything is at least fairly balanced. Nothing has seemed crazy broken but there are some pretty big threats.

Mildly common mons I have thoughts on
:pikachu: Still a crazy mon, can threaten a ton of things. Not really ban-worthy or anything (yet) but really threatening to offense and stuff. Everyone should be running some sort of ground type tbh to check this and ebuzz
:tangela: Sleep Powder Tang is a really good mon right now. It can force a ton of switches and spread knocks to everything. offensive tang is the definitive good set
:gurdurr: Gurdurr is always good and it continues to be good. Drain + Knock is suuuuuch a good combo. I tried out some Flame Orb sets on TR and I'm also pretty favorable towards that set as CC + Knock + Facade w/ Guts is crazy good
:hattrem: Nuzzle is hella annoying. That is all
:kadabra:obv sash is good but LO is an underrated set tbh. Nothing switches in on it consistently outside of Ferro
:duosion: There aren't many dark-types atm that are frequently used so Acid Armor + CM Duo can start getting boosts and sweep pretty easily.
:corsola-galar: Way2bulky4me
:raboot: IK people like boots raboot but banded is crazy. Consistently good in every game
:wartortle: SpDef tort is a very very good spinner right now. Big fan of this
:magmar: I haven't seen many Magmars lately but specs is still crazy and even taunt/evio sets are good. lava plume is the most frustrating move to face

Some more obscure mons I like rn
:porygon: Specs porygon is still pretty underrated imo and can really create some havoc if given the chance. too bad it's slow
:nidorino: With how prominent TSpikes is, nidorino is a good offensive poison type that can remove them and set them itself
:yamask: I know Trick Room is an iffy playstyle but it gets TSpikes + TR + Memento + Knock Off which is a pretty nice combo
:swirlix: It gets CM + Grassy Seed/Unburden combo + ridiculous coverage. not the most consistent mon but it's cute
:brionne: yeah yeah spdef is ok but offensive? that's where it's at (i was playing around with specs on TR which was baller but i assume even an offensive evio set with scald/ice beam/flip turn/toxic(?) wouldn't be awful)
:honedge: still a big fan of this. still gets swords dance + priority + good coverage. has a ridiculous defense stat

those are all the thoughts i really have from this past month
 
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Jett

Flamer Girl
is a Pre-Contributor
hattrem sleep.gif

(Here is a cute gif hattrem sleeping because I felt this post lacked visual stimulation.)

Hello reader. For quite some time discussions about the metagame on this thread have gone dormant, so I thought I'd write a little something on it to hopefully spark some discussion again. I want to share my thoughts on the current metagame as a whole and whether there is anything worth suspecting at the moment, given that it has been around 2 months since the last quickban vote slate (I'm well aware the metagame has shifted in some ways in spite of that).

Before I continue with this post, I'd like to address the fact that this is purely my own opinion, and is not meant to be representative of the council's opinion as a whole (note: the council have yet to talk about potential suspects). That being said, I am personally still curious on whether the community deems anything to be problematic, and am willing to formally bring up any solid points made in this thread, in the form of a discussion with the council, if they get enough support. Additionally, if the council do end up discussing anything which is noteworthy, I'll be sure to make a follow-up post so that the community will have a chance to respond.

Quick Thoughts on the current metagame

I believe the metagame is in a pretty good spot at the moment, and have personally enjoyed playing NFE these past few months more than the rest of its existence in SS. Whilst the metagame is pretty top heavy (and will most likely remain that way due to the nature of how NFE mons interact), I feel that many different team archetypes have a place in the metagame and can find success relatively easily. Sun is very strong and probably the most reliable form of HO, but Dwebble HO teams are also good. Bulky offense and Balance builds are still extremely common, and still revolve around sturdy walls and strong pivots, as well as potent setup sweepers. Semi-stall is also good but I think more defensive teams can struggle slightly more than the offensive ones at the moment. Often NFE becomes sorta stale after a few months of no bans/no new Pokemon introduced by a DLC, but right now, there still feels like there is some room to experiment. I say some room because there are definitely some Pokemon which do push the boundaries of fun or healthy, which I'll address in a bit. The metagame is dominated by Pokemon which can fulfil multiple roles as role compression is extremely important, with the rise of more special attackers and wallbreakers, meaning defensive walls are more stretched out. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but what is certain is the metagame feels a lot more fast pace (apart from a few exceptions) due to the overall power creep.

Thoughts on potential suspects

So far I've briefly talked about how balanced the metagame feels, but I'm well aware that there have been a few discussions in the discord, about removing certain Pokemon (or unbanning in the case of Pawniard). From my understanding, I've gathered the Pokemon which I've seen some talk about their removal from or addition back into the metagame, and presented my thought below each of them. The Pokemon are listed in alphabetical order (except for Pawniard since I wanted to focus on suspects before resuspects for layout purposes).

:ss/golbat: Golbat
Golbat is arguably the best Pokemon in the metagame, or at the very least the most splashable. For the most part, I don't find Golbat overly troublesome, although I've realised many of my opponents have a tendency either rely super heavily on it, or have way too few Pokemon which can switch into it. My main gripes with Golbat would have to be in teambuilder. Golbats that run the combination of Taunt and Super Fang are very oppressive against balance and semi-stall teams, making it more difficult to pull off these archetypes. One of the biggest reasons I run a much faster Golbat is the ensure I can land a Taunt on them before they do the same to me, which is by no means an excellent answer, but to me isn't particularly healthy either. Now, I don't necessarily need to use faster Golbat sets, but Golbat almost mandates you run a Pokemon which are faster than it, in order to keep it in check. Whilst I'm on the topic on Golbat, a small side note I want to talk about is Defog users, and how I hate it when I have to run Defog on Golbat because it has so many better moves in its arsenal. The same is sort of true with a Pokemon which a lot of people seem to replace with Golbat, Vullaby. Moves like Roost and Defog lose a lot of momentum and very much suck to use. I think Vullaby's Dark-type can be invaluable for some teams as Psychic-types are extremely scary at the moment. Overall, I find Golbat super annoying to have to account for during teambuilding but for the time being I think it's not overbearing enough for me to want it remove, although a suspect on it could be interesting.

:ss/mr. mime-galar: Mr. Mime-Galar
Mr. Mime-Galar is a very potent Special Attacker, regardless if its Nasty Plot 3 Attacks, some Choiced set or a more niche set. Its movepool makes it very difficult to switch into because it can use coverage moves to somewhat break past its supposed counters (Focus Blast for bulk Steels, Shadow Ball for bulky Psychics and Ghosts). That being said, I do feel as if Mr. Mime-Galar has slightly fallen off since the start of the Crown Tundra metagame, and I myself find that Kadabra is much more effective as a special Psychic Wallbreaker and Cleaner. Teams have adapted pretty well to Galarian Mr. Mime and give it very few opportunities to setup (although, it is very devastating if it does). More importantly, priority moves are so common that even if it is able to setup, it will get forced out again in the following turn, losing a lot of momentum. Ultimately, I think Mr. Mime-Galar should be left in the metagame, and isn't very high on the priority as something to be looked at.

:ss/pikachu: Pikachu
Since the last ban, the Electric Mouse is still up to its same tricks, being an amazing mixed wallbreaker, pivot, and cleaner. Pikachu is very difficult to switch into and when preparing for it, I feel somewhat forced to bring a Ground-type or specially defensive Tangela as those Pokemon don't hard lose momentum when switching into Pikachu, since everything else gets worn down/is forced to recover or else it can no longer reliable switch into it. The overall speed tier of the metagame increasing does hurt Pikachu slightly, but more often than not, these Pokemon can be easily cleaned up with its FakeSpeed combination after a bit of chip. Pikachu isn't without its faults, as its extremely frail, making it difficult to reliably switch-in, and also gets worn down by hazards with how it is forced to pivot in and out in order to avoid being knocked out. Out of all the Pokemon in this list, Pikachu is probably the one I'd be most tempted to ban if it were to be suspected, just because of how limited counterplay options against it are, when compared with every other Pokemon, but even then I'm unsure if I'd vote ban.

:ss/tangela: Tangela
Tangela is probably the most interesting Pokemon on this list, as from a glance it just looks like a very well rounded Pokemon which is extremely versatile, in its spread and move choices. The main complaint I've heard about Tangela (as I understand) is how "unfun" and debatably unhealthy its ability to abuse Regenerator is. Tangela is extremely difficult to break past due to its amazing physical bulk, and respectable special bulk if invested into, but also has incredible Special Attack to abuse moves like Leaf Storm, especially when invested into (does this remind you of another Grass-type in the previous generation?). I agree that Tangela is one of the most obnoxious Pokemon to deal with but nothing past that, and I don't believe suspecting it would help the issues about how restrained the metagame feels to play at times. Maybe its because of use of status moves on Pokemon which you wouldn't typically expect to use them, that means I have never felt that Regenerator allows Tangela to have a vice grip on the metagame, but this obviously could be seen as unhealthy adaptation by some. I would be unwilling to ban Tangela at the moment if a suspect for it was called.
------------------
:ss/pawniard: Pawniard
Lastly, Pawniard was also mentioned a couple of times as a Pokemon which should be allowed to rerurn to the metagame. As one of the two people, who voted Do Not Ban on the slate that Pawniard was banned, I'm still not totally opposed to a resuspect of this Pokemon, but would much rather it stay stay banned for the time being. Pawniard's influence on hazards alone is way too great for me to believe that its addition would have a positive effect on the metagame. Aside from hazards, its Swords Dance set would yet again mandate the usage of the few checks, which lack reliable recovery, to be brought every game, mainly Gurdurr and Machoke. We simply don't have the same tools that we had in the previous generation (mainly Monferno lol...) in order to reliably keep this Pokemon at bay.

Thanks for reading!!
 

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