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A -> A+ or S
munchlax has insane bulk, paired with curse it's very hard to break it without getting a crit and can easily finish games after getting a curse or two up. curse/rest/sleeptalk are the main moves and then you can run chip away for other munchlax and more pp, body slam for para chance and stronger output than chip away, or you could run crunch to hit ghost types like Misdreavus and Lampent which you easily wall with Munchlax's insane spdef.
here are some replays of munch in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1145534364 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1136380450 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1134333782
There's 1 big nom I've wanted to make in ORAS NFE for a while and i really dont know how to word it other than "This mon does well against most of the a ranks with very little support other than a way in." But I'm going to try anyway
Frogadier A+ -> S
I am of the opinion that Frogadier is currently the best mon in ORAS NFE. I believe this for 2 main reasons, its strong 1v1 matchups vs the majority of the Pokemon in the A ranks, and its ability to form the strongest voltturn core when paired with Electabuzz.
voltturn:
Frogadier is able to form one of the most potent voltturn cores in conjuction with Electabuzz, making both powerful threats in the meta. Frogadirer is the stronger part of this core thanks to its coverage (ice beam for grasses and gunk shot for spdef clefairy, both mons that Electabuzz struggles with), and ability to pivot out of ground types, (something Electabuzz cannot do)
matchups:
Frogadier's excellent coverage options give it a ton of versatility. Ice beam in particular allows frog to hit common mons like roselia, vullaby, and tangela super effectively, which is especially useful when using expert belt (The best frog set in my opinion). Gunk shot allows frog to threaten physdef clefairy and outright beat spdef clefairy, and dark pulse allows frog to threaten duosion.
This post is super rambly and i kinda gave up at the end, but i hope my point got across somewhat. Frog is easily a top 3 pokemon in the current metagame, if not top 1. thanks for reading.
edit: forgot to agree with pazza's nom of Munchlax: A ->A+/S
I decided to make a post, outlining a bit of the Lead Metagame for DPPNFE, since it's the meta without team preview and as a result can directly impact your play based on what Pokemon is put in the first slot.
Category one: The taunt users
This is by far the biggest and currently best way to play your lead matchup in the tier. There are 3 main 'mons that comprise this category; Misdreavus, Golbat and Monferno. Missy is the most common taunt lead in the metagame, for its ability to outspeed all other leads baring Golbat, alongside the role compression of checking Monferno/bulky waters. Golbat is one of the fastest 'mons in the meta, and can pivot out of bad mu's/taunt anything that can set rocks. Monferno is the slowest of the three, but can also set rocks and can cheese with Endeavor/mach or hit hard with blaze boosted Overheats.
There are a few more niche options that can be in this category, including taunt Gligar and Vigoroth. These two have specific good matchups into some of the other taunt leads, and can sometimes beat more traditional Anti-leads as well.
Category two: Entry Hazards
This category is more broad, since it includes (toxic) spikes and rocks. Generally, the entry hazard mons in this slot either want to be able to 1v1 some of the taunt users or be able to beat other entry hazard setters. Generally, the distinction between a taunt lead and a hazard lead can be shown based on the speed run on the mons; hazard leads are generally slower but bulkier, allowing the best ones to beat specific taunt users by either forcing them out or killing them in the process. The best ones (in my opinion) are Roselia, Marshtomp and Piloswine. Roselia can set one of spikes or toxic spikes, while 1v1ing Misdreavus and Monferno (30% of the time) as well as beating the other common hazard leads. Marshtomp is easily taunted, but with SpDef investment it can beat Monferno and Misdreavus. However it can lose to other Hazard leads, since you can only EV for one of Misdreavus or Piloswine, leaving you weak to the other. Finally, Piloswine beats bulkier Roselia leads, Golbat leads and non-Willo Misdreavus.
There's a second tier under those 'mons, which includes leads such as Metang, Bronzor and Lairon. These mons have less winning matchups that 'mons in higher tiers, and therefore fit better as a part of a team with a taunt lead instead. They generally either lose hard to taunt leads, or have difficulty breaking through other entry hazard leads.
Category three: Anti-leads
This category is unconventional. These 'mons all have specific niches, with varying levels of viability. The most prominent 'mon on this list is Yanma. Yanma is the perfect lead...60% of the time. Machop is another anti-lead who can beat Misdreavus and other assorted leads if running proper coverage. Finally there are choice users, who either bluff what sort of lead they are or pivot out for scouting. This includes Golbat, Piloswine, Monferno and Gligar, who either beat or safely pivot out versus the majority of hazard leads.
I ordered these categories based on their general viability, with the more niche options being generally good but much more matchup reliant. This is an important post for people trying out DPPNFE, or players who may be playing it during NFEPL for general metagame knowledge. Tech moves can be run to beat certain 'mons, but run the risk of lowering your efficiency of beating other Pokemon. Most of the 'mons listed have similar roles to their traditional lead counterpoints in DPPOU, so it may be easier to reference that when building.
Rises: A+ to S. It is very difficult to switch into Murkrow's Brave Bird. Sucker Punch makes Murkrow a phenomenal cleaner allowing it to threaten Pokemon faster than it and Pursuit lets it trap common threats like Missy and Kadabra, or just weakened Pokemon in general.
A to A+. Wartortle is the only Rapid Spinner which is being used commonly as well as being able to check the Fire-types (Monferno) and Ground-types (Gligar, Piloswine) in the metagame.
B+ to A-. One of the best Stealth Rock users which can be used as a lead to beat other common leads such as Piloswine, Monferno, and even Missy if Marshtomp has SpDef investment.
UR to B. Flaaffy is a pretty neat defensive Pokemon which comfortably can switch into attacks from 2 of the 3 S ranks, spread toxic and cleanse status from its teammates.
UR to B-. C+ to B-. These two mons are at the core of the Hail teams which has to proved to be a decent enough archetype to warrant ranking higher up (can be compared to rain abusers which lie only a subrank above these two).
Drops: A to A-. Yanma is proving slightly too inconsistent with Hypnosis landing being extremely pivotal to its success. Furthermore, the rise of Murkrow has really made it much harder to use more effectively.
Due to its ability to 2hko the entire tier with a near uncontested speed tier, access to amazing coverage for its specs set, and inane cleaning power that puts an incredibe strain on teambuilding, with the only valid check being to beat it with offensive scarfers or sack into a 2hko and ohko back, the DPP NFE council has voted to unanimously ban Horsea.
Sidenote: i put the message up to vote at 1:50 PM, all 7 votes were in at 1:50 PM. I love this council.
The BW NFE Council has decided to take a vote on the overwhelming presence of sleep, and it's best abuser, Tangela. Due to wanting to include the community within the decision of this vote, council has opted to elect a portion of players from NFEPL 4, as well as some others who contribute to the metagame. The following options can be voted for: Ban Sleep Ban Tangela Ban Sleep + Tangela Do Not Ban Either
Due to multiple options, the option with the highest count will be pushed through. All votes must be dm'd to SBPC on smogon by deadline. Vote deadline is July 25th, Saturday at 12:00 AM gmt-5.
I wanted to do a sort of team of the week style post, every week of nfepl, for different generations. I forgot to do it last week so maybe I will make a second one this week, but idk.. lol. All sprites in the description of each pokemon will have the pokemons common sets. The Sprites at the end and beginning will be an importable for the whole team. ____________________________________________ (Stall) The Fountain of Youth ____________________________________________
Chinchou
Item: Eviolite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk - Rest - Sleep Talk - Scald - Volt Switch
Chinchou is an interesting defensive pokemon being able to take on Electabuzz and stop its Volt Switches. Chinchou is also not threatened by HP Ice, unlike most Ground-Types. Chinchou is also an answer to Magmar, Croconaw, and a last resort against Combusken (I honestly do not remember exactly what 56 Defense evs do). Chinchou has to run Resttalk due to its lack of reliable recovery. It uses Scald thanks to its stab bonus making it do decent damage, its high burn chance, and Super Effective damage on Ground-Types as well as Fire-Types such as, Hippopotas and Combusken. Volt Switch is primarily for momentum, but can also be nice for hitting vulnerable Flying-Types trying to Defog.
252 SpA Choice Specs Magmar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 119-140 (33.6 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 114-136 (32.2 - 38.4%) -- 97.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Frogadier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 91-109 (25.7 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 144-172 (40.6 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Frogadier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 106-126 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 26.4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Croconaw Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 56 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 218-257 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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0 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 110-132 (42.1 - 50.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Croconaw: 138-164 (50.9 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I would not use anything besides the moveset I gave. Thunderbolt is ok over Volt Switch, however I do not find the damage increase enough to justify using it. It gets Heal Bell, but that does not fit this team.
Tangela was added to the team to be a great defensive check/counter to most physical attackers, However I saw more potential in it as a lure. It still has great defensive bulk while being able to trap in hazard setters like Gabite, Clefairy, Metang, and Ferroseed who would wish to click hazards and then switch. Knock Off + Infestation + Sludge Bomb can be used in combination to beat Vullaby. Unfortunately Tangela does end up giving a free switch into Roselia, which is super annoying for this team due to it setting up spikes. This lure is very effective and even if your opponent knows the set, it is hard to switch into 100 Base Special Attack in NFE especially when the mon has access to Knock Off and great natural Bulk. The speed investment is to try to outcreep Vullaby creeping Roselia, as well as outcreep Roselias. I would also like to add Regenerator is too good.
4 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 93-111 (29.1 - 34.7%) -- 8.1% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Tangela: 139-165 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gabite Outrage vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 135-160 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
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252+ SpA Tangela Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 112-134 (32.5 - 38.9%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Tangela Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefairy: 170-200 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Tangela Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 170-202 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Tangela Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefairy: 256-302 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Toxic is nice, but I dont think its worth it. HP Fire is better if your opponent knows the team and HP Ice is like HP Fire but hits Dragons and fails to damage Ferroseed significantly. Synthesis Works. All these moves would be placed over Infestation. Leaf Storm is also an option over Giga Drain and Infestation. Phys.Def + Hp Ice can be used to try to mitigate the Fraxure weakness. Giga Drain, Hidden Power [Ice], Toxic/Leech Seed/Knock Off/Infestation, Synthesis.
Clefairy
Item: Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk - Moonblast - Calm Mind - Heal Bell - Soft-Boiled
Clefairy is regarded by many as the best mon in ORAS NFE for a reason. Clefairy can preform a sheer number of roles effectively. Moonblast is a solid attacking option that gets boosted by Calm Mind. Believe it or not Calm Mind's primary purpose on this team is not to sweep, it is to help it beat Sub Plot, although it unfortunately succumbs to Taunt Plot. Clefairy is one of the few pokemon in the tier that can effectively provide Heal Bell support. This is integral to the longevity of Metang and Dusclops, while being great support to Chinchou. Not only does Heal Bell help the Rest users on this team but it also is great for removing other status which helps the team not fall over to things like Toxic, Sludge Bomb Poisons, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam Freezes and Will-O-Wisp. Soft-Boiled and Magic Guard allow Clefairy to last throughout the battle. Clefairy serves as the teams answer to many special attackers.
4 Atk Expert Belt Protean Frogadier Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 254-302 (73.8 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 126-148 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Magmar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 112-133 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 114-136 (33.1 - 39.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Kadabra Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 191-226 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 124-147 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 84-99 (24.4 - 28.7%) -- 98.6% chance to 4HKO
+4 252 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 124-147 (36 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+4 252 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 93-111 (27 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+6 252 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. +3 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 99-117 (28.7 - 34%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Gabite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 118-139 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 122-146 (35.4 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy on a critical hit: 186-218 (54 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 84-98 (24.4 - 28.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 4HKO
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+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 75-88 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO
+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Amnesia works instead of Calm Mind. Thunder Wave and Toxic can also be considered over Calm Mind, but those lose to Sub Plot Missy.
Metang
Item: Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature - Stealth Rock - Meteor Mash - Pursuit - Rest
I felt kind of forced to use Metang due to Rufflets insane offensive presence. Thankfully Metang can do more than just beat Rufflet. It can set up Stealth Rocks, Pursuit Trap Kadabra, Threaten Clefairy, and be an overall great defensive wall all in one. This pokemon really helps the defensive core on this team. Metang has some niche uses with Pursuit other than Rufflet and Kadabra. Depending on the game state you might want to force slight chip on Electabuzz so it later dies to rocks (you do take a ton from Tbolt/Volt Switch/Focus Blast, keep that in mind). If Scarf Frogadier goes for Gunk Shot as you go Metang you get really good chip for free. I would like to reiterate that the examples I gave are extremely niche. Rest is there to provide recovery.
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 42-51 (12.9 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 85-101 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (9.9 - 11.8% recoil damage)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 114-135 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 136-160 (41.9 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 72-86 (22.2 - 26.5%) -- 18.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Rufflet U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 68-80 (20.9 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Kadabra Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Metang: 174-205 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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0 Atk Metang switching boosted Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rufflet: 79-93 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Metang Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 112-134 (50.6 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Metang switching boosted Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 224-264 (101.3 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Zen Headbutt is viable over Meteor Mash for Roselia.
Vullaby
Item: Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature - Knock Off - Brave Bird - Roost - Defog
Defog or some other kind of hazard control is necessary on most teams, especially stall. While is better at this role, due to not being weak to Stealth Rocks; Vibrava has other issues. My team is weak to SD, in which Vibrava can wall. The thing is that if I bring Vibrava in on HP Ice from special Combusken my defogger takes significant damage or dies. Vullaby also can be a last resort against which really scared me when building the team. Knock Off is just a nice strong move that punishes switchins and has potential to help Tangela's damage output against things such as Clefairy, without clicking Knock Off itself. Brave Bird is a must for Combusken and also can be helpful against Roselia. Roost is for Longevity.
+2 252 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 276-326 (80.4 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 246-290 (71.7 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (23.5 - 27.8% recoil damage)
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0 Atk Vullaby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 132-156 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Combusken: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I highly dont recomend it, but you could change Knock Off to U-Turn or Toxic, however this loses out on supporting Tangela, and doing significant damage to Metang and/or Misdreavus.
Dusclops
Item: Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 208 SpD / 48 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk - Night Shade - Haze - Will-O-Wisp - Rest
Dusclops was one of the main reasons I wanted to build stall. Dusclops in the current metagame is the best answer to the two standard sets (other than Krokorok). While Seismic Toss is better than Night Shade (in most cases), it is unfortunately incompatible with Haze. Night Shade is almost a necessity to make up for Dusclops passiveness. Haze is mandatory to beat Duosions, while Will-O-Wisp is great for Expert Belt since Dark Pulse does not do too much, and the burn allows for easier pivots around it thanks to the net 12% damage every turn and weakened Gunk Shots. 48 speed allows you to out speed 4 spe Duosion, which can come into play if you need to Rest, as well as preventing them from getting two attacks off at +2 if they predict a rest. This is important to stop Dusclops from losing to crits. Dusclops is also a solid option to beat Munchlax. Pressure is also great on stall to help Defog try to have more power points than Stealth Rocks, as well as helping occasionally stall moves such as Hydro Pump from Specs.
252 SpA Expert Belt Protean Frogadier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 101-118 (35.5 - 41.5%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Frogadier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 120-144 (42.2 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 84-99 (29.5 - 34.8%) -- 8.8% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Duosion Psychic vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 49-58 (17.2 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO
4 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 57-67 (20 - 23.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+2 4 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 111-132 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 4 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 139-165 (48.9 - 58%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Munchlax Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 34-40 (11.9 - 14%) -- possible 8HKO
Sleep Talk can be used over Will-O-Wisp, but is not better in most cases.
It is important to keep in mind that when playing the team what Pokemon you do not want Knocked Off
Threat List:
Spikes are really annoying for this team. Ferroseed is the easiest spiker to beat thanks to Tangela being able to lure it, or atleast being able to stop its recovery thanks to its leech seed immunity. Just because it is the easiest spiker to beat doesnt make it easy.
Taunt Nasty Plot while rare can just 6-0 this team lol. Substitute Nasty Plot is annoying, but Clefairy can hope to beat it. Vullaby also takes a hit from Nasty Plot depending on how much HP it is at.
Fraxure is strong lol.
Like most stall teams I am sure you could pick out niche Pokemon that are extremely good against the team, such as Pignite in this case, but overall this team is solid.
The Future of ORAS Stall
* If I were to make another stall I would most likely change Tangela and then go from there
* Vibrava is arguably the best defogger on stall, since most most defoggers are weak to Stealth Rocks. It would be great if someone made a team that could afford to use Vibrava.
* Spikes are great on Stall, but I could not fit them on my team. Roselia and Quilladin are the obvious choices for spikers thanks to having reliable recovery, but Ferroseed could maybe work with Rest + Heal Bell Support. Wish Clef could also maybe validate Ferroseed on Stall also, but in most matchups your opponent will have the tools to stop the wish pass or atleast punish it.
* Duosion is extremely strong to begin with, especially in longer more methodical games. In my opinion Duosion on stall should always be the CM Thunder set, but if its on stall with Hippopotas, the combination of Future Sight and Whirlwind could be deadly. Something else I would like to mention is that, maybe instead of Thunder you could use HP Ice, which also hits Krokorok. I also believe on stall if Duosion is indeed CM it should use Psyshock always.
* Natu's ability Magic Bounce is cool, but I dont like its lack luster bulk.
Here is a Second Version of the team I made with suggestions from Hys . This improves my Match Up against the threatlist to the original team.
hi hello its nfe's favourite & simultaneously least favourite user. im just gonna highlight the main points for and against tangela ban in bw that ive seen from other people and points ive come up with myself and then go into detail.
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Brief explanation of points for the ban of Tangela
Tangela's ridiculous physdef stats in conjunction with an eviolite essentially allows it to blanket check every single physical attacker in the tier very comfortably.
It's versatility makes it virtually impossible to counter since answers to defensive tang lose to offensive tang and vice versa.
One of it's best qualities is its ability to run moves like Knock Off and Sleep Powder whilst also maintaining an offensive presence. This lets it freely spam Knock on walls and/or sleep counters in turn allowing another wallbreaker to come in and clean quite easily.
Tang's exceptional 100 SpAtk along with its incredible coverage turns it into an extremely scary wallbreaker with Specs, its exceptional synergy with Hippo also means getting hazards and weather up along with tang is fairly easy in turn making it even more difficult to switch into.
Brief explanation of points against the ban of Tangela
Tangela defensively and offensively isn't remotely as good without sleep which is inherently a bad and unhealthy feature
While in theory Specs Tangela has no counters, the fact its choiced diminishes its power since its locked into a specific move which can be abused fairly easily and scouted.
It's pitiful hp and spdef stats make it virtually useless in any matchup vs a spdef breaker.
According to the tiering policy, there are 3 different categories that a pokemon can fit into in order to be rendered as ban-worthy,
- Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
Sleep as a concept falls specifically into this category undeniably. The idea of a pokemon being rendered completely useless for X amount of turns is bad enough but the luck aspect comes into play here as well. Sleep timer being reset after a switch pushes it over the edge especially. A helpless pokemon can be forced out extremely easily with minimal risk involved, which in turn resets the mon's sleep timer, making it even more helpless. Tangela's access to Sleep Powder and freedom to run it on both of its sets makes it virtually impossible to reliably switch into (since immune pokemon such as Ferroseed cant switch into a hp fire and/or knock off)
-Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
At the time of this post, Tangela is the sole S rank in the tier and is by far better than the rest of A+. Defensively, it is unparalleled throughout the entire tier and offensively its just as good.
Offensively, Tangela has absolutely zero reliable switch ins and will cause the opponent to either guess which move is going to be used (key word guess) or simply sack a mon. In this scenario, the better player can't do anything to stop the Tangela from killing one of his mons except randomly guessing which move is going to be clicked. It can then switch out and come in again to choose a different move and get a Regenerator boost, in turn helping its longevity and unpredictability.
Defensively, it's also extremely difficult to switch into. Tangela's wide access to different status and attacking moves means Pokemon like Ferroseed or Monferno which should switch in reliably cannot (the former because of HP Fire and the latter due to Sleep Powder). Moves like Knock Off, Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Toxic and several others can be fit into its moveset very easily meanwhile other Pokemon such as Pawniard cannot due to the fear of being too passive. This ability to run whatever it wants as long as it has STAB + HP Fire makes it a ridiculously good support mon without even factoring in it's obscene defensive prowess.
- Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.
Due to its outright stupid 115 defense in conjunction with an eviolite, Tangela counters almost every single physical attacker available ( barring Monferno and Combusken). This essentially means there is no reason whatsoever to not have it on your team.
It blanket checks everything reliably and has no real downside to being put on a team. This falls under the category of "undesirable for the metagame" since it makes teambuilding extremely simple (tang+monf+missy+tortle teams are becoming stupidly common and are almost all you see in bw currently).
Tangela as a lone mon fits into none of the categories displayed above but sleep pushes it into them. As a mechanic, sleep is inherently bad for the metagame and is completely unhealthy and that's generally a philosophy which several tiers and many people in this tier agree on. Defensively, Tangela is significantly worse and easier to switch into with stuff like ferno. It doesn't provide nearly as much support without Sleep Powder either since it's left with knock+leech as its best support moves which is a solid supporting moveset but it doesn't compare to sleep powder's usefulness. Offensively, its also not as threatening since it doesnt have the option to put fatster checks like scarf Monferno to sleep and is susceptible to being revenge killed.
Offensive Tangela isn't as dominant as it is on paper. Choice Specs limits it to one move at a time and this means its extremely easy to exploit after it attacks. Also, its fairly mediocre speed means it gets outsped fairly easily and without an eviolite or any investment it becomes very easy to rk with a Monferno or Sneasel
It is utterly useless against any mon with special coverage, defensive or not. Scarfers like Monferno which wouldn't normally like facing Tang since its a free scout have began opting for Overheat as a 4th option which just OHKOes Tangela. This basically means Tang counters even less than what youd expect it to.
I'm not qualified to vote technically but I still want to voice my opinion to ignite some sort of discussion and I fully encourage others who disagree or even agree to also state their opinion. Personally, I believe Tangela on its own does not warrant a ban at all. Tangela is a lot worse without sleep but sleep isnt much worse without tangela. (just read the section above it explains it well and i cba to say it all again lol)
ty for reading make sure to leave a like and subscribe for more mediocre nfe content
Announcing the results of the BW NFE Suspect for Tang/Sleep
Quick Note: Everyone not listed did not get their vote to me in time/just opted to not vote. Also the icbb rule was pulled back. Ggopw was added to the list as a result
Council and player votes were seperated because i wanted to sort them, dont @ me
Council:
SBPC: Ban Sleep
Tack :]: Ban Sleep
Arctic: Ban Sleep
Voltage: Ban Sleep
A- -> A
this one is extremely self explanatory and idk why this mon isnt higher. it prevents rocks vs any rocker not named pawn, has amazing recovery in roost, offensive pressure in night shade and isnt a total momentum sap because of u-turn. its defensive capabilities are also amazing despite it having mediocre stats. its best attribute though is its ability to core with so many amazing mons like sneasel, frillish, ferro etc etc almost like hat in ss. this replay rlly highlights its defensive capabilities and how useful it actually is in 95% of matches not vs a rocks pawn, which in itself is a very rare set. it keeps the ferro in check and doesnt allow hazards the entire game and stops star & gab being threats throughout.
A- -> A
this thing is so fucking good, easily one of the best mons in the meta rn. despite its crippling weakness to hazards in general, sneasels disgusting offensive output in conjugation with ithe best speed in the tier makes it very difficult to RK and outright impossible to switch into. its stabs are extremely difficult to switch into, the only viable or convenient switchins would be defensive monf (which is pretty rare in itself) and pawn with defensive investment. even from a building point of view this mon's extremely difficult to deal with defensively and has to exclusively be dealt with offensively.
A- -> A
this mon is incredible rn. steel typing alone is literally broken in this tier but the fact it can switch into missy and dabra so effortlessly without investment is wonderful. rocks sets are great since it threatens natu which is ur biggest threat when setting rocks and can prevent mons like monf from coming in freely with coverage such as eq. it gets bullet punch as well which really helps the sneasel/dabra mu. this replay really highlights that (and no im not saying i lost because its broken im just bad LOL). it keeps dabra and missy in check the entire game while also pressuring monf not to come in at all. super difficult mon to play against.
B+ -> A- or even A
HOW IS THIS MON B+ LOL. by far the best dedicated spedef wall in the tier, spin blocks, hard counters monf, has great mu's vs the best hazards removers. i could go on and on about this mon. its defensive typing in conjunction with its ability makes it stupidly good. 3 immunities + several key resistances is incredible on its own but its also backed up with stellar spdef, amazing utility moves and reliable recovery. and this isnt me speaking out of my ass hypotheically, this has all been seen in nfepl lmao. even going back to this replay, frillish just sits there and walls shit for fun and stops the sweep endgame from duo.
B -> B+
this mon is so fire (pun intended). its crippling weakness to rocks and middling speed definitely limits it but its stupidly good offensively. its coverage is literally impossible to switch in to, its stabs are incredible and are unresisted etc etc. it hard counters 90% of monfernos and can threaten entire teams at team preview, this mon is so solid and i rly dont feel B accurately represents how good it is. it also threatens all forms on hazard control making very useful for getting hazards up.
A -> A-
ok im gonna be honest i am not sold on this mon AT ALL. its offensive output is pretty good but its just not good enough. it gets walled by some of the most common mons in the tier like hippo and tang meanwhile banded variants which may have a slightly easier time breaking the aforementioned mons struggles vs anything with speed such as dabra or sneasel. rocks sets are mediocre at best and hone claws is not good at best. this mon just feels like its trying to do so much at once but struggles to excel at anything.
A- -> A Disagree
First looking at the replay, voltages team is bad. You should never run Ferroseed without a Pursuit trapper like Sneasel (idk if it was pursuit staravia but that doesnt really cut it). Natu Struggles against Roselia due to Sludge Bomb poisons and is such a MU fish. Most good teams have a way of dealing with it.
A- -> A Agree, I would consider this thing for A+
A- -> A Not Sure, leaning towards disagree
B+ -> A- or even A Disagree, and pls stop bullying Voltage with these replays its unfair
This mon is good but not A- worthy in my opinion, but I would be fine with it in A-. Also I really really really dont like voltages teams, maybe I am the bully.
B -> B+ Not Sure
LAMP
Drops
A -> A- Agree
Generally not worth it on teams, but it is solid enough to still be A-
BW samples should probably be updated, or at least mine, its super old.
Duosion to S
Id consider it, completely busted pokemon, but Pawniard and Sneasel do hold it back even if it has HP Fight.
Ferroseed to A
Mandates running Sneasel or Pawniard which isnt bad I guess, but id rather use Roselia most of the time.
Natu to B+
Pursuit is so common, this mon feels like a MU fish.
Roselia to A+
Best Spiker, sand is unfortunate but spikes are so good and it does its job better than ferroseed imo. Rest + Natural cure also isnt the worst thing for sand.
Clefairy to A
Magic Guard is legit too good especially in BW, due to it being the metagame of Sand and Hazards.
Munchlax to B
Never seen this thing used in BW i think.
Servine to UR
With sand so common Synthesis sucks and Contrary isnt legal.
making a SM vr post as I've come to live a little more for this metagame and have been enjoying it greatly in NFEPL
rises -> A+ to S
This is a long time coming but honestly Monferno is just so good. While it's most popular set is usually Nasty Plot/ Swords Dance + Firium/Fightingnium Z it still remains to be a Pokemon that can extend itself to go much beyond that where its walls or checks will not always be reliable. Just looking at its paste you have a good 6 sets that can be used and all are viable, you need a scarfer? you need a physical/special wallbreaker? you need a Stealth Rock setter with recovery and momentum? you need stallbreaker? it can do all of that and so much more. The metagame is constantly evolving around its presence which can very well be observed through this season of NFEPL which is why I believe for it to be on the same defining level as Machoke and Servine and worthy of being S rank.
-> A to A+
Probably the best Stealth Rock setter of the metagame, but I wouldn't reach that far and just leave it as Gabite is a really good Stealth Rock user. Following my previous nom Gabite has a great presence in checking a good portion of the metagame and is an excellent check to Monferno who has been everywhere, this is the only bulky Pokemon along with Misdreavus that can outspeed it. Furthermore its bulkier sets are very versatile as it does not fear many switch ins thanks to Toxic and coverage making hazard removers like Togetic, Vullaby and Servine less reliable and highly pressured. As an offensive wallbreaker Gabite is also a powerhouse, whether you're using it with a Choice Band, Choice Scarf or Z-move, Gabite is a Pokemon that will almost always greatly impact a game.
-> A- to A
While most will make a case for Marshtomp to be considered as a passive wall, there are many ways in which Marshtomp is more vital than it is expressed through paper talk. Probably the best physical wall behind Machoke, Marshtomp is popularised at the best Pawniard and Machoke switch in, through its great bulk and overall persistent Attack stat, Marshtomp has great success in fitting onto teams. I would also consider Marshtomp to be up there with Gabite, Monferno, Clefairy, and Metang as the best hazard setter. Yawn/Ice Punch has been very popularised as well making it a harder Pokemon for Roselia, Servine and other Special wallbreakers to take advantage of.
-> B to B+
I really love this little dude and I really feel like people are sleeping on it, this is probably one of the best wallbreakers in the metagame and people are not taking advantage of it enough. Just setting up once allows you to break so many walls for something like Haunter or Monferno to come in and finish off the game. It has great coverage and really strong damage output, you have a lot of versatility for your fourth move as well like Subsitute to avoid getting revenge killed or status, Aqua Jet to outspeed opposing priority or coverage like Superpower for Steel-types.
-> C to B
hehe you know I had to boost him now that he's a perceived threat. We've been sleeping on this for a while now and through the gen8 ban we've started to realise that the game's mascot might not be so awful to have on a team. It is a given that Electabuzz outclasses it still as an Electric-type but Pikachu has great reasons to differentiate itself and find ways to be just as threatening as the current generation. Knock Off + Extreme Speed is still a force to be reckoned with, being able to revenge kill a large portion of the metagame with a priority move that outspeeds priority moves is a great niche that can turn games upside down, especially as how common set up sweepers are and how easily they can get chipped. I'd say the only thing holding it back is Pursuit and the bigger amount of threats who can handle it 1v1 also no fakespeed.
drops -> B- to C
This Pokemon is just not great, even if you manage to set up once you don't really outspeed much and you're still quite vulnerable to priority. Fighting and Ground coverage is also huge in this metagame and you usually don't really want a physical sweeper that is weak to those typings, especially x4 weak to them. It's also quite hard to build around, you need ton of support and usually need to throw this on a Sticky Web team which isn't all that hype at the moment.
-> B- to C+
Trumbeak isn't anything scary or threatening and shouldn't really be in a rank where Fletchinder also is. This Pokemon is just too fragile for it to work usually and doesn't really function well in most of its games. It still has a great movepool and ability to help it out, but without the Z-move it doesn't impose anything that could break down a team. In a metagame where you already depend heavily on a Flying-type to click Defog you don't really need another volturn weak Pokemon who takes 3 turns to have a chance at wallbreaking imo.
not much else to write here actually since I feel like the overall VR is quite accurate still but I would probably engage in revising C ranks, a lot of Pokemon which I feel aren't as viable as they're made up to be compared to like C- ranks. I think things like Sandshrew, Shelgon and Snover could probably drop a rank or even become UR.
I'm bored so I'll comment on Marjane's noms above, which were overall really good, and add a few of my own for SM
Comments on Marjane's Noms
-> A+ to S. Agree
I've always been a massive Monferno abuser in ever gen that it's legal (rip ORAS monferno) so I may come off as slightly biased, but I believe that Monferno thrives in the current metagame with bulky Servine still being at centre of the metagame. It's by far the most versatile Pokemon we have in the metagame. It can be both as physical and special wallbreaker/sweeper and is able to run multiple different Z-moves and coverage moves. This makes it particularly difficult to check defensively because at +2 it can break past many checks with said moves. Its checks and supposed counters, often have their Eviolite removed as they are meant the switch-in the several of the immense amount of offensive threats this metagame has, leaving them vulnerable to a +2 Z-move attack. Many faster Pokemon are unable to comfortably take a boosted priority move from Monferno. I mentioned flexibility earlier, and with moves like Slack Off, Stealth Rock, and U-turn, you can choose to run more defensive sets or have Monferno as your Scarf user. Another rising threat is Pawniard, and Slack Off Monfenro is by far the best counter to that Pokemon if it is running Slack Off, and a bit of investment in bulk, and can farm free momentum off it. I think it's slept on because a lot of people gravitate to Machoke as their choice of Fighting-type but they have different enough roles, and I do think there is a distinct enough gap between Monferno and the rest of A+.
-> A to A+. Agree
I think Marjane summed this one up pretty nicely. People have finally adapted to the much lower Clefairy usage by bringing this mon more often. Gabite is definitely the best Stealth Rock user at the moment, often carrying Toxic to wear down opposing Defog users, who take further chip from its Rough Skin. The fact it has also been able to run more offensive sets, which have been utilising Z-Moves and Choice Items, to great effect shown by Plas and King Leo V during NFEPL, shows that this Pokemon is definitely deserving of a rise with an unrivalled amount of flexibility compared to pokemon in its subrank. It's one of the few Pokemon that is faster than Monferno and can take a +2 priority move pretty comfortably, which as I mentioned in the above paragraph is extremely rare.
-> A- to A. Neutral
Marshtomp is a weird Pokemon. It's definitely very solid, and has been used a fair amount during NFEPL so far, and is one of the better Stealth Rock users in the metagame. It isn't really able to hit very hard so I disagree with Marjane about its ability to switch in and handle Machoke but it'll do enough damage to the point where Machoke is near useless at the cost of its own health. Its ability to handle Pawniard and Monferno, at least in the early game, is the main reason why I think this Pokemon would deserve a rise. A lack of recovery really hurts it as a wall, and whilst I've seen RestTalk used once this tournament to pretty good effect, giving up Stealth Rock requires you to fit those elsewhere on the team, which not every team can afford to do. I do like how flexible its last slot is being able to run Yawn, Toxic or another attacking move of your choice, but I'm still not 100% sold on this Pokemon rising. I do think it's 100% the best Pokemon in A- at the moment.
-> B to B+. Neutral
This mon is in a similar position to the last one where I do think it's currently the best Pokemon in its subrank. Croconaw is an often overlooked Water-type due to there being several other water-types which are more commonly uses, in particularly Frogadier which is the main choice as an offensive Water-type. I think it's definitely a very overlooked and underprepped setup sweeper at the moment, but I'd like to see more big games where it is used to great effect. It has great moves to be an effective cleaner and on paper I can see this Pokemon definitely rising but I'm still not 100% sold, at least yet.
-> C to B. Sorta Agree, proposing C to B-.
I'm not as sold as Marjane on the Pikachu hype train but I do still think it's sort of slept on in Gen 7. Although it's nowhere near as good as it is in Gen 8 due to there being more faster Pokemon in the metagame as well as FakeSpeed being illegal, it can still run Knock Off and Extreme Speed, and function as a great offensive utility Pokemon, which late-game cleaning potential. It's bulk is still very underwhelming making it difficult to build around or utilise well and it's still mostly outclassed by Electabuzz as an Electric-type, but it does have a few nice niches which probably make it worth using in more HO style teams.
-> B- to C. Agree
The metagame has been relatively unkind to Lairon and its major weaknesses. It requires too much support for its offensive set up sets to get going and it can be pretty easily walled by the common physical walls that are being used at the moment. Not to mention it hates Choice Scarf users which still outspeed it at +2 such as Frogadier, and can't handle Monferno's priorirty particularly well either. I haven't seen this Pokemon in a while now and I think it's pretty underwhelming for an offensive threat. It shouldn't really be used as a defensive Stealth Rock user either since there are way better Pokemon for that role as well.
-> B- to C+. Agree
There are just better offensive and defensive birds in the metagame so I don't really see a lot of situations where you'd want to run this over some other Flying-type, and if you do you'll probs have to fit multiple as some sort of bird spam, and Rufflet Staravia, Fletchinder and Vullaby all do a better job at that as well. I think this Pokemon is pretty strong on paper but is just too unreliable despite its pretty nice coverage since it requires too much support from Defog users, with the majority also being Stealth Rock and Volt Switch weak like Trumbeak.
I also agree with Marjane the lower ranks ought to be cleaned up post PL, but I'm kinda lazy to write those out at the moment hehe, but I may do so later/definitely bring it up to the SM council later.
My Own Noms
-> B+ to A-
Tangela is an exception physically defensive wall, and whilst the metagame does have a lot of specially defensive threats running around, it is another of the few Pokemon which is able to deal with Machoke and Pawniard (by running a Hidden Power Fighting). This tour has shown how scary these offensive wallbreakers, especially the latter which has single-handedly 6-0'ed multiple games already lol. Regenerator is especially good in this metagame, as using recovery moves can sometimes lead to you bleeding some momentum as well as forming an incredibly good Regen core with Mareanie. Tangela is also no slouch on the offensive side either with 100 base Special Attack and Leaf Storm, which deals significant damage to even without much investment, so it is very passive compared to other walls in the metagame. It has great support with access to Knock Off which also makes it obnoxious to switch into.
-> B+ to A-
I'm still a bit unsure of this one, as seeing both it and Staravia in the same subrank looks a bit odd, but I still do think this is something to consider. It distinguishes it self from Staravia because of its better special bulk and having Knock Off, whilst Staravia is more flexible and is able to run offensive sets better, although we have seen Nasty Plot Vullaby been used during PL. It is one of the 3 Defog users which is currently being commonly used, with hazard removal in this gen still being pretty rough. It's an incredibly good wall against a lot of special attackers in the metagame, having a good mu vs Servine. This Pokemon does have a small issue with 4MSS as it would often like to fit 5 different moves and not running one can leave it weak to certain Pokemon (No Brave Bird makes it hard to deal with Fighting-types for example). That being said, it remains a very solid Pokemon, and I don't expect its usage to slow down any time soon.
Noticed there wasn't any RBY content here, and since this is a pretty underexplored format I thought I'd make a post to try and drum up interest. For those interested who aren't well-versed in RBY, I maintain a Resource Hub which may help you a bit. I managed to program NFE and Middle Cup into RBY 2k20's PS Server, so if you're interested and want a teambuilder to make use of, that may be helpful! Stadium AG has also been added for any custom rulesets in that area too.
If you need a refresher on RBY Mechanics, this guide on RBY 2k20 should be extremely helpful to you. Quite a few Pokemon will abuse these, such as Ivysaur and Dragonair.
Middle Cup
Middle Cup (where LC is banned) is usually played more in my experience, but it can make a good reference point. It's probably one of the most centralized formats in RBY, though Pre-Golduck Ban NU is definitely worse. Dragonair, Kadabra and Haunter are exceptionally ahead of the rest of the available Pokemon. In addition, Poliwhirl is also quite powerful, as Electric-types don't exist. It's a very interesting format, to say the least, and definitely some good fun.
Here are some Middle Cup resources I dredged up from my resource hub.
They don't translate completely, as NFE allows LC Pokemon, so be careful there. There was something done by Disaster Area on RBY 2k10, and some old staff are trying to get the posts back since the forum was closed. If I happen to get that, I'll add it in here.
The very very good NFEs
In terms of NFEs, you have a few monsters. These three are typically considered the strongest of the bunch, and they have got niches in even RBY Lower Tiers, especially Kadabra. As a result, this format is likely to be centralised around them. Get used to teambuilding with Haunter and Kadabra at the very least, they're going to hover over your shoulder to ensure you have counters. Dragonair
AgiliWrap is a thing and it is going to spam it.
Mono-Dragon means it isn't being sent to Destination: Fucked if Blizzard pokes it with a stick, so it's a bit more difficult to take down than Dragonite overall.
Thunder Wave support
Has a wide attacking movepool to fine-tune itself to a team; Surf, BlizzBolt, Body Slam
Haunter
Very high Speed and Hypnosis makes Haunter a fairly good lead. 2nd fastest NFE to Kadabra.
Don't let the lack of STAB fool you, it has a monstrous Special stat and has areas to put it; Thunderbolt, Mega Drain and Night Shade are all at least somewhat viable. See what Gengar does in OU, and you can apply it directly to Haunter.
Can explode.
Kadabra
Fastest Pokemon in the format and lord does it hit hard.
One of the few users of Recover that are available.
Fastest Thunder Wave available, giving it a lot of leverage as a lead.
Strongest Psychic available as well.
Potentially Viable LCs
So this is where I'm a lot less knowledgable, as once again, this format has hardly been played in RBY in my experience. So this bit is some educated guesswork based on what I know of from Middle Cup and a few other side formats similar to this (Pika Cup w/bans, Petit Cup). Gastly
Another Ghost who has pretty respectable stats, and a history of use in NU.
I'm not sure if it's worth running the risk of being two Pokemon down against Kadabra...
Exeggcute
The best LC in the game, bar none. Historically been a problem child whenever evolutions are limited.
Double Powder access makes it a fairly decent lead, and it has a pretty nice STAB Psychic.
Can explode, so there's that
Charmeleon will be a pressing issue for it, which iirc is pretty good in this format.
Diglett
Speed ties Haunter and KOs with Earthquake if it's taken almost any amount of chip. Will always 2HKO.
Slash allows it to ignore Reflect users, which gives it a fighting chance against paralyzed Kadabra.
Competes a lot with Graveler for a place on a team imo, who gets the best Explosion in the format.
Drowzee
Surprisingly decent stats make it a good Special sponge, so it could possibly contend with Kadabra. Not sure whether it's worth it though.
Thunder Wave + Hypnosis is nice.
Staryu
85 Speed is pretty damn good for the format, though the other LC's additions may complicate things.
Recover access gives it a ton of staying potential.
Thunder Wave support is always nice.
Has a nice attacking movepool; Psychic, BlizzBolt, STAB Surf
Remember, it isn't Psychic-type until it becomes Starmie!
Voltorb
Almost the fastest Pokemon available, only outsped by Kadabra, adding some more variety to the lead options.
This makes it the 2nd fastest Thunder Wave user, outspeeding Haunter is also crucial as it's extremely common.
Fastest Explosion available, but it's very weak.
This, along with Magnemite and Pikachu, are the only Electric-types available.
There's probably more, but it's a start. I think Meowth and Pikachu's Speed stats may come into play, and Magnemite also seems alright. I've seen Slowpoke surprise people in LC and Pre-BL Removal NU too.
I didn't fully build this team, as Plas edited it (the original draft had Servine over Misdreavus), but other than that it's mostly the same. As it turns out, momentun's pretty broken in most tiers, and BuzzFrog is a pretty tried and true core anyways. Evio Ebuzz + Ferro was the start as a reaction to Rufflet tearing up week 1 of SM PL, just to hold it off for a while while passively punishing it, which worked well. The rest of the team's pretty standard as well, except maybe Tspikes Frogadier. Plas got crit on Gabite with Monferno, which definitely helped, but I don't think it would've mattered much if it didn't.
This is actually a team I built for the last PL and never ended up using in it, and you can tell it's somewhat older because it has ServRose on it. Sub + DD Dragonium Hakamo-o is absurdly underrated in SM, it's capable of ripping through most non-Staravia teams once they're weakened a little, which Ninja kindly demonstrated by taking all six kills with Haka once Tangela was weakened. The rest of the team's kind of just there to enable it with a fairly standard defensive backbone by NFEPL 3 standards.
Hone Claws Gabite is cute and could possibly see more use. Groundium-Z is for Ferro, but Dragonium/Steelium is an option too I guess. Unfortunately, having to start building for ORAS mid-week meant this team had a pretty noticeable monferno-shaped hole in it, and that plus guessing the wrong Ebuzz set cost Ninja.
So band Murkrow is extremely good, especially because it can dent Duosion hard enough to basically take it out of the game while also packing STAB Brave Bird in a tier where STAB Brave Bird is very hard to deal with. This was the best ORAS team I made this year and it wasn't close, the team probably loses hard to whirlwind munchlax but then again, what doesn't?
This was about the time I realized that offensively pressuring Munchlax in ORAS NFE is basically impossible thanks to a lack of good fighting types and nothing else really hitting hard enough, but I still tried with pivot spam. I have no idea how good this team is because every single bit of hax that could happen to me did, but it's probably not that good.
Because SB and I are not masochists and our teams were already out of contention for playoffs, we gentleman banned Munclax and Duosion for this round. Shockingly, without the presence of two absurdly bulky effective wincons that are extremely difficult to offensively pressure and can just win games on the spot, the tier improved. Who would've guessed? In the inverse of the last one, I haxed SBPC to oblivion this time.
I won't post my week 7 team because it was bad and I really didn't care at that point.
This was probably my favourite team I built for this PL. Back before it started, Cheryl and I toyed with the idea of putting her in DPP since there wasn't a lot of players, but Kaori ended up going in instead. Sealeo was unranked at the time so we thought we were surprising everyone but hail ended up being really good so more than just us caught on. This is probably the most well-built team I made this PL, since it got tested for the most time, and it paid off. The speed EVs on Sealeo are for minimum speed wartortle, which didn't come into play here but is relevant since most of them carry toxic.
SubSeed Grovyle honestly seems really good, especially since it can pack HP Ice for the large amount of birds in DPP NFE while still being fast. The rest of the team is more or less to beat grass types with a couple of monferno checks, although they were both set-specific and Cheryl sacrificing Tentacool cost her when special monferno showed up. That, and missing the kill by 1%.
Ultimately, of all the metagames I built for this PL, I think SM and DP are in good spots right now. SM has the most options of any tier, which helps it be the most balanced, and DP is fun in its own way with most good pokemon having multiple viable options for variety. ORAS, on the other hand, has an issue in that Munchlax (and to a lesser extent, duosion) are both so bulky while threatening to go off and win the game at any point. There is no offensive counterplay to Munchlax, no "hit it hard enough to force it to heal", none of that. Part of this is due to the lack of good fighting types in the tier, which freeing Monferno would help with tremendously. Vs Munchlax, you basically have to get your taunt/encore user in and try that, at which point they can just switch out or stay in to chip it and force it to heal. Munchlax warps the entire tier around beating it and if you aren't prepared with taunt/encore users that can heal and can take a hit after hazards, you're basically dead. Whirlwind is arguably even better since it can just swap out your "answer" for something that does take hazard damage (if Clef) or have the actual answer take hazard damage instead. It also doesn't care about Encore nearly as much.
Personally, I think ORAS NFE would be significantly healthier with a Munchlax ban, and I'd like to hear what other people think.
I actually played so much the older gens since I found them refreshing and I wanted to be a better tester for my team. Eventually, I made two BW teams over what I’ve learned through NFEPL. So I’ll just slip them in here.
Over the course of NFEPL so far, Hail Stall has seen a decent amount of usage and a lot more experimentation that entirety of DPP NFE’s creation. What was previously seen as just a niche archetype has proved to be a very strong archetype which some members of the community have even called for its ban. The Hail core of Sealeo and Snover currently has 10.34% usage and an impressive 83.33% win rate but stats alone don’t tell you too much so I wanted to delve a little deeper into this archetype and whether it should be allowed to remain in the metagame and then share my own opinion on the matter.
The first thing I wanted to do was go through Sealeo's matchup against every Pokemon (outside of Sealeo and Snover) which was brought 5 times or more to NFEPL. I made a fancy table with some useful information:
The most important column here is the "1v1" column which basically says whether a Pokemon can beat Sealeo in a 1v1. Why this is important is because Sealeo forces Pokemon which cannot beat it in a 1v1 to either be sacked to Sealeo or switch out giving it a free turn to set up Substitute, which is when Sealeo becomes even more difficult to deal with. Out of these 17 commonly used Pokemon, only 2 Pokemon can beat Sealeo with all of their common sets and 9 will need to be a specific set in order to beat Sealeo. There are 6 Pokemon which Sealeo can capitalise on relatively easily and will most likely end up with a Substitute in front of it, as they get forced to switch or get stalled out by chip damage. No other Pokemon is even close to having such good matchups against other Pokemon, although obviously this requires a bit of setup needing Snover to have set Hail beforehand.
Next, I want to have a closer look at the Hail teams which have been brought to this NFEPL. The 1st slot is the lead slot, but I've rearranged the rest of the Pokemon for ease of comparison.
(unrevealed was ) (used twice. I refer to this team as Quag's Hail later on)
As we can see Hail teams are extremely similar with Snover, Sealeo, Metang as a Stealth Rock user and a spinner usually Wartortle, but I’ll go into more depth about Tentacool later. Usually the last two slots cover a Ground immunity and some speed control. Hail teams have an extremely linear build and lack diversity so when playing against Hail, you do have the advantage when it comes to figuring out your opponent's unrevealed Pokemon. I think it was around Week 3 or 4, when I was talking to Quagsgone about how Toxic Spikes could be used to beat Hail teams, which is exactly what happened in the Byron vs Meri, where Sealeo was worn down by Toxic Spikes damage and was the one game which Hail lost in PL. Quagsgone adapted his own Hail team with the Toxic Spikes matchup in mind and replaced his spinner, Wartortle, with Tentacool instead. Whilst Tentacool is less bulky, and somehow even more passive that Wart, it very importantly can absorb opposing Toxic Spikes so Sealeo can enter the field safely as well as setting up its own providing additional chip for Sealeo and co. Tentacool also significantly improves the Roselia matchup which is one of the better Pokemon against the Snover and Sealeo core. A slightly different variant of "Quag's Hail" with a Misdreavus lead instead (also made by Quag's which you can find here) is the most consistent Hail Stall that I’ve seen and played against so far.
Specific details, calcs, and stats aside (despite this very post mostly being based on exactly those things), I think the most important to consider player opinion here on such a controversial topic. I personally think that Hail is pretty uncompetitive because it removes a lot of the skill in battling and forces you to build in a certain way which avoids having too many Pokemon which let Sealeo get a free Sub up. When playing against Hail, it is extremely unfun and it feels like a lot of the time, the matchup has already been heavily decided in teambuilder meaning knowing your opponent's Pokemon in advance matters far less. At the start, I could see arguments that the metagame was evolving in a healthy way with adaptations to new archetypes and sets such as Toxic Spikes becoming more common as an answer to Hail teams. However, I haven't found teams which are able to reliably beat Quag's Hail without significantly weakening a team's matchup against more standard teams, which I'm leaning towards wanting to have one of the Hail core banned. Additionally I have experimented with nicher options to beat Hail such as Hippopotas and Clefairy but these have poor matchups against a lot of the other common Pokemon in the metagame, and being forced into bringing them only to deal with Hail may suggest that there is a problem with the metagame. I would definitely like to hear other people's opinions on this, especially those who built and played DPP NFE this NFEPL, because I know that not everybody will agree with me here.
Additional Note
: We should free Thick Club since Cubone probably isn’t broken with it even on Trick Room teams and this could be a new interesting archetype against the many offensive teams in the metagame. This ban happened because it was tested with Deep Sea Tooth when it should have been tested individually instead and we have plenty of time post PL, to make sure this change isn't overwhelming.
Alright short and sweet but I'm gonna announce the ORAS NFE Reboot and the creation of the 'Ancient' NFE Gens.
ORAS NFE: Reboot
Going into ORAS, the community has expressed many many concerns about the state of the current metagame, and as a result of our ORAS council dropping in numbers quite some post-pl, we have a new ORAS Council, so everyone welcome OranBerryBlissey10, Monsareeasy, raf, and Quagg to ORAS council! Now for the fun part.
These guys are unbanned. But, since people might be worried of tiering taking a similar road due to this meta having already existed..
ORAS council has also opted to bring back Fletchinder, a mon we feel was banned too quickly back in early ORAS.
Additionally, we are going to Suspect Test to bring back Machoke into the meta, as a chance to see if it's worth justifying a complex ban for its uncompetitive DynaPunch + No Guard combination. The ban in place for this is that Dynamic Punch (the move) is banned, and Machoke is reallowed. There is no deadline on this, so take your time to explore this metagame and post your thoughts as well.
this sus is dead lol
TL;DR:
Unbanned: Monferno, Pawniard, Fletchinder
Banned: Machoke
these go into place until the conclusion of the Machoke suspect, and if Machoke is decided to be worth keeping by the community, the rules will remain, otherwise Dynamic Punch will be unbanned and Machoke will return to the banlist
"Ancient Gen" NFE
As a chance to explore these metagames of NFE before Gen 4, each of the following metagames will be lead by a "Council" of 2 (more if needed) and be for the most part, community driven.
ADV NFE already existed, however we're using this opportunity to play around with the banlist and reboot the metagame in an attempt to make it more enjoyable.
I don't mean to come for a decision made, but the council should have known better here. There are numerous flaws in the above post that I think needs a bit of nitpicking and I will try to raise points for better explanations that I expect from both SBPC and the rest of the ORAS council.
First of all the reasonings behind these tiering decisions are just missing, there are no votes or individual council statements, it's nice to know that new council members have been instituted but it doesn't change anything if they're not going to share their opinions or perspectives with the rest of the community. Anyways I have made a list of questions that I implore for all of you to answer. Starting point, Why are Monferno and Pawniard getting unbanned? If these Pokemon were needed of an unbanning, why is Fletchinder getting unbanned? Why were other Pokemon like Servine and Haunter not free'd, surely if you are restarting a metagame you would start it from scratch? What was the thought process behind these tiering decisions? What are you hoping to achieve by these changes but most importantly: What was wrong with the ORAS metagame?
I'm not implying that nothing was wrong with the ORAS metagame beforehand or that no tiering decisions could or should have been made, I'm not an ORAS player myself but there is a massive lack of transparency here. No posts on ORAS NFE have been made here and no one has been particularly vocal about what the problem is/was with this metagame, so where is this all coming from?
Alright short and sweet but I'm gonna announce the ORAS NFE Reboot and the creation of the 'Ancient' NFE Gens.
ORAS NFE: Reboot
Going into ORAS, the community has expressed many many concerns about the state of the current metagame, and as a result of our ORAS council dropping in numbers quite some post-pl, we have a new ORAS Council, so everyone welcome OranBerryBlissey10, Monsareeasy, raf, and Quagg to ORAS council! Now for the fun part.
What were the concerns? How did the council come up with their results? This is something that needs to be shared with the community. I'm sure your council has gone over numerous metagame discussions and tested different practices or theories (at least I hope so) but these statements need to be shared in order for the rest of the community to understand why these decisions were made.
Additionally, we are going to Suspect Test to bring back Machoke into the meta, as a chance to see if it's worth justifying a complex ban for its uncompetitive DynaPunch + No Guard combination. The ban in place for this is that Dynamic Punch (the move) is banned, and Machoke is reallowed. There is no deadline on this, so take your time to explore this metagame and post your thoughts as well.
Now the biggest problem I have here is that there is a big flaw in the philosophy of unbanning Machoke to begin with. You are unbanning a Pokemon that you know is too good for the metagame but you need because you're unbanning other Pokemons who are weak to it, and your answer to conclude this philosophy is to nerf it and see if it is still too good? This is something that has never been done before and surely not something that should start now. First of all the ideology behind these actions are just wrong, you are building your tier in broken checks broken, you are unbanning Fletchinder for Pawniard and Monferno to feel less centralising but if Fletchinder was banned too early when bigger threats were in the metagame, what tells you that it is now balanced? Now IF council is trying to give ORAS NFE a fresh start then why not start it from scratch? Unban everything and go from there but a council should not pick and choose what and who you want in the metagame like this.
Moving on from the above point, which I hope will be cleared up, I will raise why this Dynamic Punch ban is wrong and should not have happened. First of all this is a complex ban and one that has never happened in the past, there are precedents to Dynamic Punch ban discussions which can be found in ORAS PU where multiple threads have voiced their thoughts on this exact issue, all in which the consensus was to suspect Machoke instead. NFE as an OM made a serment to follow the official Tiering Policy and this has been established through the entire metagame growth and tiering decisions of both SM and SS as current generations, (recent example in SS; we banned Pikachu instead of Light Ball) thus leading a way for older generations to be inheriting and following from. If you go through with this ban you are setting an example where other moves like Glare and Toxic can be considered bannable following the justification of being uncompetitive; and even then Machoke isn't the only abuser of Dynamic Punch. Machop and Golett are too, are they uncompetitive and ban worthy because of it? This isn't a signature move like Chatter is on Chattot, this is a common move which violates a precedent made in the tiering policy and not something a tier aspiring to become Official should be aiming for.
I played a ton of RBY NU this month and a handful of RBY NFE games between friends so this is really just a first impression. This meta looks like a lot of fun, so let me go into what I believe will be the viability list of the legal mons:
The Staples: Little to no reason why every team shouldn't have both w and Haunter. They have highest Special stats in the meta and are invaluable for what they bring to the team. Easy S tiers.
- 120 Special, fastest mon in the meta at 105 Speed, Recover, Thunder Wave, Psychic typing... This thing dominates. It's great for a revenge killer against Haunter, Dragonair, Gravler, and many others, while being able to trade paralysis against anything it doesn't like. To that end, Exeggcute and Drowzee make decent checks, with their Rest outstalling Seismic Toss and being able to Thunder Wave or Stun Spore / Sleep Powder in return. Still, Kadabra will always come in handy, potentially forcing mons like Exeggcute and Haunter to boom on it if they really wanted to do deal with it, and has a high hax factor with a good crit rate and Psychic's high chance to drop the Special stat. Games will probably revolve around keeping Kadabra healthy and around the longest to revenge kill and spread status, and a lot of Twave trades between opposing Kadabras are likely valid plays.
- Great Speed and Special, but Haunter really shines for having an immunity to Normal, preventing AgiliWrap Dragonair from sweeping. Explosion can be awesome for nailing Dragonair and Psychic-types, and it has it's own Psychic for Ghost-types. Its coverage past that is a little malleable imo, but the top two would be 1.) Hypnosis for putting something to Sleep (when it hits), and 2.) Thunderbolt for the handful of slower Water-types. Night Shade can be better than Tbolt for the 3HKO on Kadabra and Abra, Mega Drain 2HKOs Gravler, and maybe Confuse Ray + Substitute could see use with an emphasis on paraspam. Regardless, there's a lot to abuse here, and being the best dedicated Wrap switch-in alone pretty much makes it a staple.
Top Tier: Not exactly staples but still easily the best at their roles, and most teams should be have and build around these mons.
- Dragonair has access to Agility + Wrap and is the only mon in the meta with Hyper Beam. Hyper Beam is really strong and inconsequential in gen1 if it snags a KO, and Dragonair puts targets like Kadabra and Exeggcute into 1HKO range with only a few Wrap turns. Agility also bypasses the Speed deduction of paralysis if Dragonair actually is inflicted, meaning the only thing standing in its way are Ghost-types, missed moves, and status making it an unlikely sweeper. Blizzard is Dragonair's best coverage for Gravler—likely the most relevant Normal resist—and the Ghost-types, but considering it only 5HKOs Haunter, it's best bet is to fish for a freeze there. Blizzard is also great for opposing Dragonair and Grass-types, while Hyper Beam is really only for Kadabra, Abra, and Clefairy, but Wrap also can potentially put them in Blizzard range too. Thunderbolt could be preferred instead maybe for Water-types, while Surf 1HKOs Gravler so that it doesn't trade off with Explosion. Another potential set is more offensive as a lead or revenge killer, and opting for Body Slam and Thunder Wave over Agility and Wrap. Dragonair's decent all-around stats and supportive coverage can make it fit for this wall, with paralysis getting physically frail targets into range of Hyper Beam.
- Porbably the best wallbreaker, Graveler thrives on paralysis support so that it can revenge kill Kadabra, Haunter, Poliwhirl, and really pretty much everything thanks to the awesome combo of Explosion and STAB Earthquage. Some of its best potential switch-ins like Exeggcute still don't like risking Body Slam para. Graveler's Normal resistance isn't that great in a tier with no Hyper Beam users and the Wrap users can Surf / Razor Leaf to 1HKO it, but can still be a good Explosion deterrent, and the Thunder Wave immunity still offers some switch-in opportunities once Kadabra is paralyzed itself. Graveler is essentially the strongest physical attacker, and its role as a revenge killer is likely invaluable.
- Easily the best check to opposing Psychic- and Ghost-types. Kadabra's Seismic Toss fails to 3HKO, meaning Egg can just Rest off the damage while pressing back with Sleep Powder / Stun Spore; watch out for a Psychic Special drop tho, as then Kadabra's Psychic will 3HKO. It also has a good Defense and Earthquake resistance, allowing it to switch-in, outspeed, and punish Graveler. Haunter and Gastly are also switch-ins for Egg, as even their Explosions aren't that strong against it while it tanks and statuses. Psychic is likely its best bet as a general attack against the Ghost-types, Graveler, and Weepinbell. Mega Drain for Graveler only 2HKOs, but at least it can recover any chip damage from the switch-in and make it unlikely for Graveler to 1HKO with Explosion. Egg's own Explosion is also great for gaining momentum and taking down Kadabra for good, and probs is best played over Rest. Egg still has to watch out for Blizzard users and being victim to status itself, as paralysis + the shaky accuracy of its status moves can make it fail to capitalize.
- Poliwhirl's best stat is its 90 Speed, which allows it to set up Amnesia quickly. Still, Haunter outspeeds and 2HKOs with Thunderbolt (even after boosting), and so does Kadabra, which can crit Psychic to 1HKO (~20% chance) while Poli struggles to break with a +2 Surf / Hydro Pump. Making Poli more unreliable is its potential 4th move. Hypnosis offers a way to get a setup going for it, probably making it a decent lead that can boost and break teams early, while Rest could be better if the opposing team only has special attackers left. I'm not sure what the best potential of Poli is, but it's easily the best setup sweeper thanks to its good Speed and Amnesia, and +2 Blizzard being notably effective against Dragonair.
Team Fillers: Honestly using the six above for a team probably works just fine, if not really good, but this is where the meta gets interesting! Everything else here is either blatantly outclassed or has some severe weaknesses to the top tiers, but are likely still good mons to experiment with and support the rest of the team.
- Nothing wrong with a mini Kadabra and an extra offensive check to Dragonair, Gastly, and Weepinbell. Without Recover, Abra is probably best with Counter instead to hurt opposing Seismic Toss users,and can gain early momentum with a fast Psychic + Thunder Wave combo. The paralysis and Seismic Toss chip damage can force Exeggute + Drowzee to an early Rest, or it can face up with the opposing Kadabra to trade paralysis, all helping your own Kadabra out.
- Much like above, having a mini S rank isn't that bad at all. In contrast to Abra, Gastly still has all the coverage that its evolution has. This means, if you wanted, Haunter can run Thunderbolt as a better check to Poli, while Gastly can have some of the two's more interesting coverage like Mega Drain, Confuse Ray, and Substitute. Explosion and Psychic are still necessities. The other big pro of running two Ghost-types is that one can afford to boom on say a paralyzed Kadabra, Exeggcute, or Poliwhirl for massive damage, while the other is still able to check Wrap sweepers-late game. I predict double Ghost to be a decent playstyle for facilitating this synergy!
- Weepinbell is mostly outclassed by Dragonair due to not having Agility itself and being vulnerable to a good amount of Psychic users. The pros it does have for itself is the higher Attack, Swords Dance to boost further, and Sleep Powder to help out with boosting more. It can set up against some naturally slower targets like Egg, Graveler, and Drowzee, and Weepinbell also has enough bulk to take the strongest of super effective hits—Kadabra's Psychic fails to 1HKO—so maybe it can also work well as a lead? It also 1HKOs Graveler with Razor Leaf crit (85% crit chance) and is great for bypassing Amnesia Poliwirl for a shakey 1HKO chance as well, but its Grass / Normal coverage still makes it a sitting duck against the Ghost-types. Potentially Weepinbell could be good with Dragonair instead of in place of it, as it can Sleep the Ghosts early-game to help a Dragonair sweep later, but it still works well on its own against a paralyzed team to boost and Wrap sweep.
- Staryu has a lot of good going for it! Thunder Wave + Recover makes it akin to Kadabra, but it's poor defenses from the base 30 HP means stuff like Kadabra, Haunter, and Abra all 2HKO in return. Blizzard at base 85 Speed 2HKOs Dragonair, Egg, and is a coinflip against Weepinbell, which is scary anyways because its Razor Leaf 1HKOs. It's probably best then switching into Poli to Twave it or the switch-in, and can break it with with parahax, Recover, and potential Tbolt crits for a decently winnable match-up, and at the very least makes it plausible for a revenge killer to finish the job if Staryu goes down. Past that, it can potentially switch into Graveler and force it out, and continually do this with Recover if not capitalizing right there, but it needs Surf to 1HKO while Graveler 2HKOs with EQ, so that might fall short. Its coverage hopefully makes up for its poor stats.
- Two Gravelers. 80 Attack is still okay; EQ 1HKOs the Ghosts while 2HKOing Kadabra and Abra. It also virtually has the same bulk in most match ups, so it can still get these 2HKOs and then boom later.
- Good special bulk and a great movepool. Really helps support the team with Thunder Wave + Body Slam paras, while having good BoltBeam coverage. It works for outspeeding and 2HKOing Egg and Graveler with Blizzard, and could potentially even have Seismic Toss if it wanted something better for the Ghost-types, although Haunter is very likely to outdamage with Psychic anyways. Its coverage and decent enough stats should make it a consideration on teams that want more para support and Ice coverage.
- I've lumped Drowzee in as one of the two Kadabra checks, and it does much of the same as Egg but potentially better in checking Psychic-types. Drowzee's higher Special means its not as easily haxed by Psychic Special drops. It also lacks an Ice weakness, giving it a slightly better match-up against Dragonair and Poliwhirl, which also highlights the more accurate Thunder Wave when securing a much needed paralysis on these targets. However, its worse Defense makes the Ghost-types more incentivized to boom against it, and generally makes it easier to be revenge killed once its asleep or paralyzed. Seismic Toss and Counter as counter play to Kadabra is also less effective as Sleep or Explosion, making it generally hard to justify this over Egg, but maybe together they could work?
- Diglett is a really good revenge killer against the physically frailer attackers like Kadabra, Haunter, and their prevos, 2HKOing most of them and 1HKOing Gastly; outspeeding Gastly and naturally tying Haunter is also a huge pro. Slash and Body Slam offer supportive coverage, although they're not the most effective agains Egg, which is Dig's biggest counter. Dig shines best with paralysis support and with Substitute, as it can fish for free Subs against the the mons it can revenge kill when they switch out or full para, and again only Egg punishes Dig through the sub with Stun Spore. This also comes into play with a paralyzed / sleeping Poliwhirl and Dragonair, as while it fears Surf / Blizzard, Diglett's good Speed and potential free turns could be abusable to secure good damage on top of a previous Explosion, or so that Kadabra or Haunter may then safely revenge kill. It's lack of bulk and competition with Graveler is still a huge downside, though.
Might Work: The rest of the mons here may have some small niche, and it's always possible I'm underselling them, but I'd personally avoid them till the meta starts to be more explored.
/ - These are the only LCs of the top tier NFEs that I'm skeptical of. Not sure if doubling down on their roles are worth it. Maybe Dratini can be the AgiliWrap sweeper so that Dragonair has a more offensive set. Poliwag is just as fast as its evo, and its Special isn't even that much lower, so maybe two Amnesia sweepers work. Not sure on these.
- Decently fast and has Fire Spin for partial trapping, along with Body Slam and Agility to help this too. As a lead, Fire Spin into Fire Blast 1HKOs Egg, while it can help with scouting or firing off a random Body Slam and praying for a para. It doesn't have much of anything else for Water- and Rock-types though, but if it's being sacked then fishing for the Burn on Graveler could be worth it. Besides really hurting Egg, there's just stronger revenge killers with better overall coverage.
- Not actually stronger than Graveler due to a STAB EQ being a lot better than STAB Submission, where does Machoke fit? It can outspeed Egg but doesn't really phase it with Body Slam, and the weakness to Psychic makes it all the more vulnerable to mons that its meant to break when paralyzed. While stacking physical attackers could work, mons like Digglet and Weepinbell surely are better for the job. 2HKOing Graveler and Clefairy is something I guess, but really it's just outclassed by Geodude.
- Completely walled by Graveler. It can at least double into a mon that punishes Graveler hard like Poli or Weepinbell, but it's porbably best saved after Graveler is gone to Explode and paralyze something. 100 Speed is okay for crits, but Tbolt doesn't do much to Haunter in the first place, which also makes boom less likely to get off.
- Poli really outclasses Wart in most regards, and it even competes with Staryu, but at least Wart can switch into Golem and avoid the 2HKO while forcing it out. It can then capitalize with Surf, Body Slam, or Blizzard, but with generally low stats it's just not that great.
- Crabhammer only has a 78% crit chance, and it's coming off a pitiful base 25 Special. It's still pretty likely to 1HKO Graveler, which isn't likely to 2HKO back, so there might be a set up opportunity there. Too much stands in its way from actually setting up and breaking, and being 1HKOd by Tbolt from the Ghosts, which are pretty good switch-ins in the first place, makes it not worthwhile.
/ - These are practically the same mon anyways, but the bad Poison-typing and average stats make them not worth it really. Body Slam and BoltBeam are okay, but Clefairy does that with Twave and a better Special. Maybe the increased Speed and Attack could work, but it's really nothing special.
I've played some RBY NFE matches, so I'll add my 2 cents.
Ho3nConfirm3d's Run Down seems to hold true from what I've played of it. Kadabra is easily the best, yet its low HP/Defense and the deluge of Psychics that can status and wall it keeps it from overwhelming the tier. Haunter, Dragonair, Graveler and Exeggcute are great, and the interplay between them all is enjoyable for me. I'm unsure that Poliwhirl is "Top Tier", Slowpoke was missed in Ho3n's post and it is a very strong answer to Poliwhirl once Hypnosis is no longer an option, as it can boost alongside Polwhirl, cripple it with Paralysis and it resists all of Poliwhirl's Special attacks. I never used Poliwhirl and whenever I faced it I didn't have much trouble eliminating it before it could cause significant damage.
A few mons not listed by Ho3n that might work:
- The best mon not covered by Ho3n, Slowpoke's got a very useful Water/Psychic typing which lets it check Psychic-, Fire- and Water-types, utility in Thunder Wave, and sweeping potential in Amnesia. Its utility served me quite well in my matches.
- Electric/Water ain't bad coverage here, and most of the things that resist those don't like getting paralyzed by Thunder Wave. On the other hand, it is pretty dependent on Seismic Toss to get damage on things that aren't weak to Thunderbolt or Surf, and is pretty frail and crippled by paralysis itself. From my experience, seems like a valid alternative to Abra as a glass cannon.
- Charmeleon's got a noteworthy advantage to make it worth using over Ponyta. Slash 2HKOs Kadabra, while Charmeleon's slightly higher Special bulk gives it a significantly improved chance to survive 2 Psychics/crit Psychic from it. And since Kadabra is the top mon, having a better matchup against it is going to be important. It also can survive one more Psychic from Exeggcute than Ponyta can, giving it more room to switch in and pressure it. Swords Dance, Seismic Toss, Submission and Counter are notable moves Ponyta lacks. Ponyta has Agility and isn't outsped by base 90s or Staryu though, so Fire Horse still has plenty of merit over Fire Lizard. Haven't used it myself yet though.
- Switches into Fire attacks without fear, absorbs Explosion and if Dragonair lacks Thunderbolt (which will probably be the case), Kabuto helps to deal with Dragonair's Wrap too. Slash is decently powerful, though at 55 Base Speed, Slash only crits around 85% of the time instead of being guaranteed. Downside is that it is quite squishy on the Special side and will struggle to be effective if the opponent doesn't have a Fire-type or TBolt-less Dragonair to exploit.
- It is weak and walled hard by Haunter, but it is fast and has a very strong Slash, so it might have some potential.
A -> A+ or S 
UR -> C - CB pignite hits really hard 
A+ to S. It is very difficult to switch into Murkrow's Brave Bird. Sucker Punch makes Murkrow a phenomenal cleaner allowing it to threaten Pokemon faster than it and Pursuit lets it trap common threats like Missy and Kadabra, or just weakened Pokemon in general.
A to A+. Wartortle is the only Rapid Spinner which is being used commonly as well as being able to check the Fire-types (Monferno) and Ground-types (Gligar, Piloswine) in the metagame.
B+ to A-. One of the best Stealth Rock users which can be used as a lead to beat other common leads such as Piloswine, Monferno, and even Missy if Marshtomp has SpDef investment.
UR to B. Flaaffy is a pretty neat defensive Pokemon which comfortably can switch into attacks from 2 of the 3 S ranks, spread toxic and cleanse status from its teammates.
UR to B-.
C+ to B-. These two mons are at the core of the Hail teams which has to proved to be a decent enough archetype to warrant ranking higher up (can be compared to rain abusers which lie only a subrank above these two).
A to A-. Yanma is proving slightly too inconsistent with Hypnosis landing being extremely pivotal to its success. Furthermore, the rise of Murkrow has really made it much harder to use more effectively.
, although it unfortunately succumbs to Taunt Plot. Clefairy is one of the few pokemon in the tier that can effectively provide Heal Bell support. This is integral to the longevity of Metang and Dusclops, while being great support to Chinchou. Not only does Heal Bell help the Rest users on this team but it also is great for removing other status which helps the team not fall over to things like Toxic, Sludge Bomb Poisons, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam Freezes and Will-O-Wisp. Soft-Boiled and Magic Guard allow Clefairy to last throughout the battle. Clefairy serves as the teams answer to many special attackers.
is better at this role, due to not being weak to Stealth Rocks; Vibrava has other issues. My team is weak to SD
, in which Vibrava can wall. The thing is that if I bring Vibrava in on HP Ice from special Combusken my defogger takes significant damage or dies. Vullaby also can be a last resort against
sets (other than Krokorok). While Seismic Toss is better than Night Shade (in most cases), it is unfortunately incompatible with Haze. Night Shade is almost a necessity to make up for Dusclops passiveness. Haze is mandatory to beat Duosions, while Will-O-Wisp is great for Expert Belt
since Dark Pulse does not do too much, and the burn allows for easier pivots around it thanks to the net 12% damage every turn and weakened Gunk Shots. 48 speed allows you to out speed 4 spe Duosion, which can come into play if you need to Rest, as well as preventing them from getting two attacks off at +2 if they predict a rest. This is important to stop Dusclops from losing to crits. Dusclops is also a solid option to beat Munchlax. Pressure is also great on stall to help Defog try to have more power points than Stealth Rocks, as well as helping occasionally stall moves such as Hydro Pump from Specs
Spikes are really annoying for this team. Ferroseed is the easiest spiker to beat thanks to Tangela being able to lure it, or atleast being able to stop its recovery thanks to its leech seed immunity. Just because it is the easiest spiker to beat doesnt make it easy.
Fraxure is strong lol.
A- -> A
A- -> A
B+ -> A- or even A
B -> B+ 
A -> A-
-> A+ to S 
-> B to B+ 
-> C to B
-> B- to C
-> B- to C+
Dragonair
Haunter
Kadabra
Gastly
Exeggcute
Diglett
Drowzee
Staryu
Voltorb
- Hone Claws Gabite - Ninja vs Catalystic (Week 4)
Hail Stall 
ORAS council has also opted to bring back Fletchinder, a mon we feel was banned too quickly back in early ORAS.
- Porbably the best wallbreaker, Graveler thrives on paralysis support so that it can revenge kill Kadabra, Haunter, Poliwhirl, and really pretty much everything thanks to the awesome combo of Explosion and STAB Earthquage. Some of its best potential switch-ins like Exeggcute still don't like risking Body Slam para. Graveler's Normal resistance isn't that great in a tier with no Hyper Beam users and the Wrap users can Surf / Razor Leaf to 1HKO it, but can still be a good Explosion deterrent, and the Thunder Wave immunity still offers some switch-in opportunities once Kadabra is paralyzed itself. Graveler is essentially the strongest physical attacker, and its role as a revenge killer is likely invaluable. 
- Poliwhirl's best stat is its 90 Speed, which allows it to set up Amnesia quickly. Still, Haunter outspeeds and 2HKOs with Thunderbolt (even after boosting), and so does Kadabra, which can crit Psychic to 1HKO (~20% chance) while Poli struggles to break with a +2 Surf / Hydro Pump. Making Poli more unreliable is its potential 4th move. Hypnosis offers a way to get a setup going for it, probably making it a decent lead that can boost and break teams early, while Rest could be better if the opposing team only has special attackers left. I'm not sure what the best potential of Poli is, but it's easily the best setup sweeper thanks to its good Speed and Amnesia, and +2 Blizzard being notably effective against Dragonair.
- Nothing wrong with a mini Kadabra and an extra offensive check to Dragonair, Gastly, and Weepinbell. Without Recover, Abra is probably best with Counter instead to hurt opposing Seismic Toss users,and can gain early momentum with a fast Psychic + Thunder Wave combo. The paralysis and Seismic Toss chip damage can force Exeggute + Drowzee to an early Rest, or it can face up with the opposing Kadabra to trade paralysis, all helping your own Kadabra out. 
- Weepinbell is mostly outclassed by Dragonair due to not having Agility itself and being vulnerable to a good amount of Psychic users. The pros it does have for itself is the higher Attack, Swords Dance to boost further, and Sleep Powder to help out with boosting more. It can set up against some naturally slower targets like Egg, Graveler, and Drowzee, and Weepinbell also has enough bulk to take the strongest of super effective hits—Kadabra's Psychic fails to 1HKO—so maybe it can also work well as a lead? It also 1HKOs Graveler with Razor Leaf crit (85% crit chance) and is great for bypassing Amnesia Poliwirl for a shakey 1HKO chance as well, but its Grass / Normal coverage still makes it a sitting duck against the Ghost-types. Potentially Weepinbell could be good with Dragonair instead of in place of it, as it can Sleep the Ghosts early-game to help a Dragonair sweep later, but it still works well on its own against a paralyzed team to boost and Wrap sweep. 
- Two Gravelers. 80 Attack is still okay; EQ 1HKOs the Ghosts while 2HKOing Kadabra and Abra. It also virtually has the same bulk in most match ups, so it can still get these 2HKOs and then boom later.
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- These are the only LCs of the top tier NFEs that I'm skeptical of. Not sure if doubling down on their roles are worth it. Maybe Dratini can be the AgiliWrap sweeper so that Dragonair has a more offensive set. Poliwag is just as fast as its evo, and its Special isn't even that much lower, so maybe two Amnesia sweepers work. Not sure on these. 
- Decently fast and has Fire Spin for partial trapping, along with Body Slam and Agility to help this too. As a lead, Fire Spin into Fire Blast 1HKOs Egg, while it can help with scouting or firing off a random Body Slam and praying for a para. It doesn't have much of anything else for Water- and Rock-types though, but if it's being sacked then fishing for the Burn on Graveler could be worth it. Besides really hurting Egg, there's just stronger revenge killers with better overall coverage.
- Crabhammer only has a 78% crit chance, and it's coming off a pitiful base 25 Special. It's still pretty likely to 1HKO Graveler, which isn't likely to 2HKO back, so there might be a set up opportunity there. Too much stands in its way from actually setting up and breaking, and being 1HKOd by Tbolt from the Ghosts, which are pretty good switch-ins in the first place, makes it not worthwhile. 
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- These are practically the same mon anyways, but the bad Poison-typing and average stats make them not worth it really. Body Slam and BoltBeam are okay, but Clefairy does that with Twave and a better Special. Maybe the increased Speed and Attack could work, but it's really nothing special.
: C- to C+
: C- to C
: C to C-
: C to C-
