NFE NFE Old Gens Hub

[ArcticBreeze]

Gen 2 go brrr

My opinion on what the VR would be. Keep in mind that the meta is underdeveloped.

S


Porygon - Pretty much the Snorlax of NFE. Notably gets 32pp Recover along with the option to use Resttalk as a countermeasure to status. Curse is its most definitive set using Double Edge/Return/Tri Attack as Stab. Other notable moves include Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Thunder Wave, and Thief. It also gets other amazing moves, but they are not that great in this metagame.

Abra - Amazing Special Attack. Generally uses Psychic, Fire Punch, Hidden Power [Water], Thief. Stab, hits Magnemite, hits Houndour, Thief is nice to cripple answers such as Drowzee. Twave Also Works well, encore is annoying but does not accomplish much. It has other amazing coverage options. Substitute is viable.

A+


Arguably the best Abra counter. It is overall an amazing special wall. It always uses Rest and Sleep Talk generally followed by Psychic/Stoss as an attacking move and Thunder Wave. However, it can use Light Screen to better its Houndour match up. Besides Abra it is overall just a nice Special Wall.

Magnemite - Great offensive mon and good defensive type. Resttalk Thunder/Tbolt Hp Ice is the most standard set. Curse interests me personally because it resists every move Porygon learns that could be used viably used besides maybe HP Ground, However idt hp ground is worth it because it cuts into your hp dvs.

A

Pineco - Only Spiker in the tier and learns Rapid Spin. Other nice options like explosion. This thing is not S because spinning is not hard in this tier and it is completely terrible outside of spiking. Could maybe be A+.

Gastly - Good Special Attack and has invaluable moves like Explosion/Thief. Cool perish trap set.

Dragonair - Overall Solid mon.

A-

Graveler - Learns Rapid Spin good bulk and amazing on Explosion Spam Teams. Really carried by Rapid spin on the VR. Also notably ohkos Gastly trying to Spin Block.

Machoke - Good Curse mon to match Curse P2 and Clef/

Houndour - Pursuit and Thief.


B+

Clefairy - This thing would be S tier, but its curse set is outclassed by Porygon. It finds this niche on teams already with porygon that want a second curse mon or are looking to use 1 of porygon/clef for curse and 1 for utility. It does have one niche over Porygon however, it learns Belly Drum which can be a legit threat.

Exeggcute Solid Lead on Explosion Spam teams that also gets Sleep Powder.

Wartotle Learns Rapid Spin and is overall solid.

Cubone - Thick Club

SD Lovely Kiss Sludge Bomb Hp Ground, massive threat but suffers from Lovely Kiss accuracy trouble setting up and Abra Revenging along with other mons like Houndour. Synthesis and Subsitute are other options. Encore is mediocre.

B

Bayleef - Growl helps vs Curse users and it is the best Cubone answer (Maybe not, but w/e).

Seadra Better wartortle that doesn't get spin. Resttalk Surf Ice Beam. You could maybe try to fit hp grass on it.

B-

Voltorb - Gets screens explosion etc.


C

Elekid- Fast Pursuit mon with some niche on teams that have mono normal/fighting coverage cursers and also when paired with Houndour really forcing Gastly to die. Overall pretty Mediocre.

Ivysaur - cool set Ho3n made Razor Leaf Growth Leech Seed Synthesis. Hp Ice is an option over Leech.

D

Charmeleon - Stronger than Houndour but lacks pursuit. Its belly drum set is ok, but easily revenge killed.

Golbat - Pretty bad, but can find a niche out of its good speed and passable?? coverage.

Snubbull - Learns Heal Bell.

Koffing - Koffing gets a lot of interesting moves such as Curse, Explosion, and Thief and amazing coverage options. Could be higher for sure.

Some teams. I don't think these are too solid, but they all function properly. I will probably edit in some good teams later, if I get more time today to build new teams.

 

[elleapple]

[14:56:38] @SBPC !: hey sans you wanna take over the oras reboot while ur at it
[14:56:44] @SBPC !: you have more free time on your hands for it
[14:56:51] @SBPC !: by the looks of it at least
[14:57:11] @SBPC !: that was meant to be pmd but whatever
[14:57:14] @SBPC !: anime sans
[14:57:32] @anime✿sans: i would love to
[14:57:51] @Marjane: oras tl missis sans :o
[14:57:56] @SBPC !: cool, project is yours. im focusing on ancient gens
[14:58:12] @SBPC !: ill man the post for now but ill probably have it shifted to you sometime this week

I have been placed in charge of the oras reboot/revamp/reset w/e you wanna call it. Will edit in what I want to see happen with the meta soon.

 

[Jett]

This post won't be structure too well since I'm lazy and don't have too much time to write at the moment so sorry about that. I've caught up on the ORAS situation and as a former member of that council and one of the 5 "founding" members of that gen, I feel like I can offer the current gen council some help. I do recommend they actually try to reach out to nfepl oras players, other potential interested players ie. the xavgbs and former council (including former rotational) if they still care enough. I also encourage all the council members to be more open and present their own ideas as I'm such there are disagreements but cool user Marjane has already mentioned that in her post. Anyways, I hope to illustrate my thoughts in this post with my ideas and some suggestions (but please don't go off basing the metagame just off my word lol).

FIrstly, I want to look at this part of Marjane's excellent post:

Why are Monferno and Pawniard getting unbanned? If these Pokemon were needed of an unbanning, why is Fletchinder getting unbanned? Why were other Pokemon like Servine and Haunter not free'd, surely if you are restarting a metagame you would start it from scratch?

I totally agree with this, the decision to pick and choose what to free is sort of absurd. The council's role is to make sure that most importantly the metagame is in a balanced and competitive state and not manipulate it so it's a metagame that the council wants. It makes no sense to free fletch and not the other pokemon which were banned after it without a proper suspect test of some sorts. In fact this is probably the case with even Monferno and Pawniard although I do understand the logic of these unbans slightly more, although still disagree with how they were done. There was a lack of reasoning provided here which honestly makes the decision even worse, and I don't particularly agree with managing a metagame in this manner. I think it's fine to free things if the council and the community as a whole generally agree on that fact that it would be okay to free said Pokemon. The way most of council made it sound like, would be this would be a full reboot. If you truly think certain Pokemon should not be banned, this should be done in 2 ways, either via suspects or the idea of restarting over with no bans (or only bans of the most obvious Pokemon like Chansey, and I believe similar to how OU and LC ban the same few Pokemon every gen to save time). From there you would be able to proceed by going through standard quickban procedures and then later on suspects but making sure the community has a say, and this would be the proper way of doing a full reboot of the metagame, if that's what you guys believe is needed.

Now time to chime in with my own thoughts on the metagame now, I totally understand why there is a need for change in this metagame and I definitely agree that something should be done to try and "salvage" or "fix" the metagame. I'm heavily opposed to the idea of a No Guard Dynamic Punch complex ban since many other options have yet to be exhausted. Now you may not agree with tiering policy, but council's role is to make sure that's enforced as well as possible imo as it helps to define how the metagame should be balanced a creates some sort of order. The idea which personally most appeals to me is freeing everything and I'm okay with a full reboot since it will allow for everything to be fairly tested again. I understand if this idea isn't one which everyone is in favour of but it is definitely one which provides you a fair way of making sure everything which is banworthy gets banned and anything which isn't remains. I agree that'll it'll be messy making a further announcement that you've changed plans if we end up choosing to go down this route but I'd much rather everyone who cares about ORAS NFE gets a say on what they want to see happen rather than an individual or few individuals decide everything by themseleves.

Honestly looking forward to seeing responses, I urge council members who disagree with SBPC's post to also raise their concerns because I'm genuinely concerned whether this decision was well thought out and whether they actually got a say, and if everyone is on the same page here since it's such a topic which people seemed to have a lot of contrasting viewpoints, and let's just say from what I gathered from a few pms, that not everyone did agree with this notion.

edit: Oh new oras TL interesting, grats elle :>

 

[Simbo]

Might as well chip in on this since I'd prefer if ORAS doesnt get messed over by decision making.

I said the same thing in council chat before I resigned like 3 weeks ago, but you really only have two options here.

1) Mostly full factory reset on the tier

Barring the obvious brokens 6-7 brokens that are banned in every NFE gen, you free everything and start tiering anew with a more developed playerbase and better scope to test these mons out and develop the metagame. Initial ORAS testing for mons before Machoke was very rushed since we had 2 weeks to make the meta from scratch in time before NFEPL 3, and testing was like me, arctic, quag, crystal and 85 playing each other with maybe a few other ppl, very limited. There's a chance there could be some earlier iteration of the current meta which is balanced and healthy, but you have to go all in and free mostly everything and start anew, you can't pull out halfway and selectively pick a few unbans, otherwise you'll end up with the same bans and no progress, or you'll stop at Monf/Pawn and have the same complaints. Every ban in ORAS from Machoke onwards was done properly, so reversing these bans without the factory reset is gonna be met with backlash, as proven here.

2) Carry on with the current metagame and suspect Munchlax.

From what I saw and played from post-Monf PL, a lot of ORAS players (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) thought that Munchlax was the most unhealthy aspect of the meta. Arguably broken, the Curse set is very good, definitely unhealthy, ppl like Miyami brought it up in posts during PL. There's no guarantee that, if Munch was suspected and banned, the subsequent meta would be balanced and healthy (Big Duo still looking like a threat, and Frog too gets even better than it already is if Munch dipped), but it's a viable option and saves you from retconning the meta.

I don't think there's any good option other than the two listed above, doing nothing doesn't solve much. Selectively freeing a few Pokemon is pointless because you'll end up in the same meta as now, or you'll stop before Pawn or Monf and have the same complaints about a different meta. It's better to either carry on with the current meta, or start from almost scratch and see if there's a meta pre-Choke with some of the currently banned mons that balances itself out.

Tl.DR 1 or 2. Not gonna dogpile too much on the decision making here, but just wanna say that you know your decision is scuffed when Marj is the voice of reason and logic. Hoping the current direction made in SPBC's post gets pulled back.

 

[elleapple]

ORAS NFE Update:

As I have been placed in charge of ORAS NFE for the foreseeable future, I thought it best to consult with council on our approach towards the feedback we've been given on the most recent changes to the meta (3 unbans and an apparently scrapped suspect test). I would also like to apologize for my absence during these events as I had taken a step away from NFE for a couple of days for personal reasons.

In light of the feedback received from Marjane, Jett, and Simbo, as well as the opinions of myself and council: Fletchinder, Monferno, and Pawniard are once again banned in ORAS NFE.

I am of the opinion that these unbans were premature as council is yet to completely decide what we want to do with ORAS NFE. I will do my best to ensure whatever comes next for ORAS isn't as rushed as this freeing and unfreeing debacle. That's a different subject so it gets its own big bold text.

The Future of ORAS NFE:

Like Simbo said in the post above mine, ORAS NFE has 2 main options going forward.

1) A complete reset of the meta's banlist (barring obvious day 0 bans like Chansey)

2) Continue tiering with a Munchlax suspect (or another suspect deemed more appropriate)

I am of the opinion that option 1 is ideal but cannot speak for the rest of council or the playerbase. I am requesting that those who have an opinion about the future of ORAS let their opinion be known either in this thread or on Discord. I am going to try my hardest to make the ORAS NFE council THE most transparent NFE council (sorry for the not so subtle jab other councils). I'm looking forward to the coming discussions about the future of ORAS inside and outside of council chat.

 

[ArcticBreeze]

GSC NFE Viability Rankings This list was made by me and is just my opinion.

S Rank

1. Porygon

2.

Magnemite

A Rank

3. Abra

4. Drowzee

5. Graveler

6.

Dragonair

7. Pineco

8. Gastly

9. Seadra

10.

Houndour

11.

Machoke


B Rank

12. Clefairy

13. Wartotle

14. Cubone

15.

Exeggcute

16.

Elekid

17.

Weepinbell

18.

Golbat

C Rank

19.

Voltorb

20.

Bayleef

21. Ivysaur

22. Pupitar


D Rank

23.

Koffing

24. Charmeleon

25.Snubbull

I want to see Doduo tried I think it has potential. Growth Pass Eevee sounds like a bad gimmick, but maybe we can see it have some viability in the future. I think maybe Seadra should be higher. I am interested on how good Rain Dance 3 attacks Seadra would be or how good 3 attacks rest would be.


For those looking to try the meta here is a more offensive Paralysis Spam team https://pokepast.es/868bb72102c93bd9

Here is a stall team.

GSC Stall

Hello everyone! Time to talk about GSC NFE stall.



Magnemite @ Leftovers
IVs: 26 Def
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Magnemite is the most consistent lead on this team. It applies the most offensive pressure and is not punished heavily by any opposing lead. Defensively Magnemite was added to beat well... Magnemite as it is arguably its most consistent counter. It is also a nice lead vs eggy since if they want to Sleep Powder you get an Hp Ice off and then can Sleep Talk. Explosion does not OHKO. Thunderbolt is chosen over Thunder simple because it has more pp. This could be important in Magnemite mirrors when the opponent tries to switch stall you out of pp. While this seems drastically impractical this team is very tough to break making that a valid idea. While the extra power of Thunder is really nice, since this team is very defensive not missing on a key turn will probably win more games then a bit of extra power. That being said I can see an argument on the contrary for why Thunder is better. I do not believe on this team Thunder/Thunderbolt is preference, but I am not 100% sure Thunderbolt is better. That is enough about Thunder vs Thunderbolt for now. Hidden Power Ice is nice because it only cuts into defense which is not the relevant. It is also used over Grass or Water for Dragonair. I forgot to mention this earlier, but it also improves the questionable Gastly Match Up.

Seadra @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Haze
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Seadra is way better than I thought. STAB Surf has an amazing damage output and Seadra has nice physical bulk. This set takes a more defensive approach with Haze allowing it to stop Curse Sweepers. Beyond stopping Curse/Belly Drum sweepers Haze can also have the application of pp stalling Wartortle and opposing Seadra who do not want to switch. Overall an amazing Physical wall as well as a wall to Water/Ice Coverage.

Golbat @ Leftovers
- Wing Attack
- Haze
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Having two Haze users improves the Curse Matchup significantly. One of the highlights of this team comes from GSC's limited pool of Pokemon. This allows for you to double down on answers to specific Pokemon effectively. This thing hard walls Machoke and Growth Ivysaur. If Ivy is Hidden Power Ice you still beat it, it is just a bit sketchy. Other notable attributes include speed tying Abra and being a second stop to Bdrum Sweepers. Wing Attack hits Machoke super effectively while having 56pp and only 10 less hp than HP Flying which also cuts into your stats. One notable downside to non HP Ground Golbat is completely free Magnemite switches.

Graveler @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin

The team needed Rapid Spin and Graveler does it the best. I debated if I wanted sleep talk, but in long games against Pineco I decided it was for the best. Earthquake is the Stab of choice as it ohkos Gastly the only spin blocker in the tier. It also notably lives Mega Drain from Gastly. Since the tier's only spiker is Pineco in most games u have 32 free Rapid Spins to ppstall with if needed. Graveler can come in on an electric move from Magnemite. Even if it Hp ices you end up at ~52 after leftovers and can switch. One really nice attribute of Graveler is resisting Explosion and its great bulk. If you want to scout for Explosion this mon is generally the choice (unless they have Pineco and they could just kill you on the switch).

Drowzee @ Leftovers
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Light Screen
- Seismic Toss

Drowzee is here for Abra primarily, but it helps improve the Match Up against other Special Attackers like Seadra and Magnemite. Light Screen is needed on Stall Teams to stop Houndour from trapping you and to overall Improve the Match Up against Special Attackers. Stoss is best for hitting Abra and needed for Houndour.

Porygon @ Leftovers
- Ice Beam
- Thief
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

Porygon is a nice answer to the majority of mons in GSC NFE. As a glue it checks almost every mon in the tier. Leftovers Thief is interesting, but I find it justifiable. Porygon can come in on Abra's thief and steal lefties back with its own Thief, compared to plaguing Drowzee's longevity. Most mons that run Thief sets with no leftovers can not switch into Porygon in fear of Twave, so it is almost guaranteed you get lefties back. Thunder Wave allows you to heal up mons that could otherwise not recover due to being slower than the opponents entire team. Ice Beam forces Graveler to switch or Explode while being strong coverage against Dragonair and an overall solid move with a freeze chance (Freeze is honestly notable as you are favored to get it eventually and it can kill one of your opponents forms of longevity).


_________
Make sure to keep Magnemite alive. It is crucial to beating opposing Magnemite and Gastly to an extent.

Try to scout the opponents team quickly, this helps determine which mons are expendable.

Keep in mind you do not need every mon most of the time since there is a lot of overlap in what Checks/Counters what.

Try to switch Porygon or some other mon lesser needed in on Thief .

Keep explosion in mind.

 

[Jett]

SM NFE VR Update​

A bit overdue since this was meant to be post PL (mb), but regardless here are the votes:

Votes

Rises:

A to A+
A- to A
B to B+
C to B-
B+ to A-
B+ to A-
A- to A
B to B+
B to B+

Drops:
B- to C
B- to C

 

[pac]

I've been particularly interested in RBY NFE lately, so I got together with a few of the better players in the RBY NFE tier, and we compiled a list of 9 good sample teams for RBY NFE.
https://pastebin.com/4KpKCYtn

 

[ArcticBreeze]

(this is going to be moved to the first page and be the gsc post of the thread)

 

[ArcticBreeze]

(this is going to be moved to the first page and be the rby post of the thread)



[WIP]

Standard Lead Poliwhirl by Ho3nConfirm3d

Viability Rankings

S-Rank

Haunter
Kabadra

A1:
Graveler

Poliwhirl

A2:

Dragonair

Exeggcute

B:
Abra

Gastly

Poliwag

Slowpoke
Weepinbell

C:
Clefairy

Drowzee

Geodude

Shellder

Staryu

Voltorb

D:
Charmeleon

Diglett
Doduo
Dratini
Kabuto
Meowth
Pidgeotto
Pikachu
Ponyta