NFE NFE Old Gens Hub

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Welcome to the Not Fully Evolved Old Gens Hub. This thread contains resources for the NFE tiers of older generations - Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon (USUM) NFE, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire (ORAS) NFE, Black and White (BW) NFE, and Diamond/Pearl/Platinum (DPP) NFE. This thread will also serve as a place to hold discussion about the older generations of NFE. Each post contains Viability Rankings, sample teams, and a list of mechanics of the generation that is different from the current generation. Feel free to post your thoughts on a particular aspect of a generation, successful cores, underrated Pokemon, teams you want feedback on, and anything else related to old gens NFE. We hope to bring these metagames more exposure.
 
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USUM NFE

Welcome to Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon NFE! Here you will find the Viability Rankings for USUM NFE, as well as its sample sets linked to every pokemon, with other resources such as USUM Role Compendium, and USUM Speed Tiers. If you would like to suggest any changes to the Viability Rankings, please leave an intelligent post describing why you would want these changes.

Banlist:
The following Pokemon are banned in NFE: Chansey, Doublade, Gligar, Golbat, Gurdurr, Magneton, Piloswine, Porygon2, Rhydon, Scyther, Sneasel, Type: Null, Vigoroth,
The following abilities are banned in NFE: Arena Trap, Drought, Moody, Shadow Tag
The following moves are banned in NFE: Aurora Veil, Baton Pass

S-Rank

Reserved for absolutely meta defining Pokemon.

S

:Machoke:
Machoke

:Roselia:
Roselia

:Servine:
Servine


A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that do great in the current meta, and otherwise need little to no support to function, or ones that provide a tremendous amount of support.


A+

:Clefairy:
Clefairy

:Electabuzz:
Electabuzz

:Frogadier:
Frogadier

:Grimer-Alola:
Grimer-Alola

:Haunter:
Haunter

:Kadabra:
Kadabra

:Monferno:
Monferno


A

:Mareanie:
Mareanie

:Metang:
Metang

:Misdreavus:
Misdreavus

:Pawniard:
Pawniard


A-

:Combusken:
Combusken

:Fraxure:
Fraxure

:Gabite:
Gabite

:Magmar:
Magmar

:Marshtomp:
Marshtomp

:Staravia:
Staravia


B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that work well in the meta or can provide valuable niches, but otherwise have large competition or flaws that make them not as viable as A-Rank Pokemon.


B+

:Duosion:
Duosion

:Hakamo-o:
Hakamo-o

:Klang:
Klang

:Krokorok:
Krokorok

:Munchlax:
Munchlax

:Quilladin:
Quilladin

:Togetic:
Togetic

:Torracat:
Torracat


B

:Croconaw:
Croconaw

:Ferroseed:
Ferroseed

:Murkrow:
Murkrow

:Rufflet:
Rufflet

:Sliggoo:
Sliggoo

:Tangela:
Tangela

:Vibrava:
Vibrava

:Rufflet:
Vullaby


B-

:Dusclops:
Dusclops

:Eelektrik:
Eelektrik

:Fletchinder:
Fletchinder

:Gloom:
Gloom

:Lairon:
Lairon

:Lampent:
Lampent

:Marill:
Marill

:Mudbray:
Mudbray

:Prinplup:
Prinplup

:Trumbeak:
Trumbeak

:Wartortle:
Wartortle

:Whirlipede:
Whirlipede


C-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have a notable niche, but are generally outclassed or have a major flaw/major flaw that hold them back.


C+

:Eevee:
Eevee

:Hippopotas:
Hippopotas

:Lickitung:
Lickitung


C

:Dewpider:
Dewpider

:Ivysaur:
Ivysaur

:Mienfoo:
Mienfoo

:Pikachu:
Pikachu

:Poipole:
Poipole

:Poliwhirl:
Poliwhirl

:Shelgon:
Shelgon

:Weepinbell:
Weepinbell


C-

:Cranidos:
Cranidos

:Dartrix:
Dartrix

:Magnemite:
Magnemite

:Natu:
Natu

:Palpitoad:
Palpitoad

:Seadra:
Seadra

:Shelmet:
Shelmet

:Tentacool:
Tentacool

:Voltorb:
Voltorb

Click on the sprites for the importable.
Machoke Bulky Offense by Frisoeva
KadabraHaunterMachokeServineClefAGrimer
This bulky offense team's goal is to whittle down the opposing team with consistent offensive pressure from Kadabra, Haunter, and Machoke, creating openings for Servine late-game. Clefairy provides role compression as both a Stealth Rock user and a secondary bulky wincon by utilizing Calm Mind. The duo of Kadabra and Haunter pair well with Machoke, as it is able to deal with Pokémon such as Pawniard and Alolan Grimer, while Kadabra and Haunter can wear down Fighting-type checks such as Mareanie and Clefairy. In return, Alolan Grimer is able to trap Pokémon such as Roselia and Haunter for Servine as well as opposing Servine for Calm Mind Clefairy.

Pawniard Offense by BloodAce0107
PawniardRoseMarshFrogMonfernoVullaby
This team is built around Pawniard, a threatening sweeper, and revolves around weakening the opponent's team with Spikes and sweeping late-game with Pawniard. The combination of physically defensive Marshtomp and specially defensive Roselia provides the team with a solid defensive backbone and entry hazard support with Stealth Rock and Spikes. Pawniard’s Defiant deters Defoggers such as Servine and Vullaby from removing hazards. Nasty Plot Monferno can break mid- to late-game, opening holes in the opposing team for Pawniard later. Vullaby provides the team with hazard removal and utility with Knock Off, as well as a defensive check to Servine, Haunter, and Kadabra. Frogadier can revenge kill the likes of Kadabra and Haunter.

400+
:Grovyle::Combusken::Haunter:
634 / Grovyle, Yanma / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +2
612 / Poliwhirl / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +2
578 / Yanma / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +2
572 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +3
558 / Poliwhirl / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +2
542 / Krokorok / 74 / +Spe / 252 / +2
530 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +3
524 / Dragonair / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +2
522 / Combusken / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +3
516 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +2
512 / Fraxure / 67 /+Spe / 252 / +2
508 / Electabuzz, Kadabra / +Spe / 252 / +1
502 / Hakamo-o / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +2
483 / Frogadier / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +1
480 / Ivysaur, Nuzleaf, Vullaby / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +2
478 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +2
475 / Haunter, Yanma / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +1
472 / Croconaw / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +2
470 / Drilbur / 68 / Neutral / 252 / +2
469 / Magmar / 93 / +Spe / 252 / +1
466 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +2
459 / Torracat / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +1
458 / Combusken, Eevee, Weepinbell / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +2
458 / Hakamo-o / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +2
442 / Seadra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +1
439 / Cutiefly / 84 / +Spe / 252 / +1
438 / Vullaby / 60 / Neutral / 252 / +2
436 / Klang, Lombre, Metang / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +2
436 / Servine / 83 / +Spe / 252 / +1
433 / Gabite / 82 / +Spe / 252 / +1
433 / Yanma / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +1
432 / Swirlix / 49 / +Spe / 252 / +2
430 / Monferno / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +1
428 / Scraggy / 48 / +Spe / 252 / +2
426 / Charmeleon, Quilava, Staravia / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +1
424 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +2
418 / Combusken, Eevee, Weepinbell / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +2
417 / Salandit / 77 / +Spe / 252 / +1
409 / Trumbeak / 75 / +Spe / 252 / +1
406 / Krokorok / 74 / +Spe / 252 / +1
403 / Braixen, Poipole / 73 / +Spe / 252 / +1

300-399
:Electabuzz::Kadabra::Frogadier:
398 / Klang, Lombre, Metang / 50 / Neutral / 252 / +2
393 / Dragonair / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +1
392 / Lairon / 40 / +Spe / 252 / +2
390 / Scraggy / 48 / Neutral / 252 / +2
388 / Charmeleon / 80 / Neutral / 252 / +1
387 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +1
384 / Fraxure / 67 / +Spe / 252 / +1
379 / Salandit / 77 / Neutral / 252 / +1
376 / Hakamo-o, Roselia / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +1
370 / Omanyte / 35 / +Spe / 252 / +2
367 / Braixen, Poipole / 73 / Neutral / 252 / +1
360 / Herdier, Ivysaur, Meditite, Pawniard, Rufflet / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +1
358 / Gloom, Lairon / 40 / Neutral / 252 / +2
358 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +1
358 / Clamperl / 32 / +Spe / 252 / +2
354 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +1
349 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +1
343 / Combusken, Lampent / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +1
343 / Hakamo-o, Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +1
340 / Eevee / 55 / Neutral / 96 / +2
339 / Electabuzz, Kadabra / 105 / +Spe / 252 / +0
331 / Pupitar / 51 / +Spe / 252 / +1
327 / Shelgon / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +1
322 / Frogadier / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +0
321 / Scraggy / 48 / +Spe / 252 / +1
318 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +1
317 / Grovyle, Haunter, Yanma / 95 / +Spe / 252 / +0
313 / Combusken / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +1
313 / Magmar / 93 / +Spe / 252 / +0
309 / Murkrow / 91 / +Spe / 252 / +0
306 / Pikachu, Poliwhirl, Torracat / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +0

200-299
:Misdreavus::Monferno::Servine<br />
:
295 / Misdreavus, Seadra, Staryu / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +0
294 / Porygon / 40 / +Spe / 252 / +1
293 / Cutiefly / 84 / +Spe / 252 / +0
292 / Scraggy / 48 / Neutral / 252 / +1
291 / Servine / 83 / +Spe / 252 / +0
289 / Gabite / 82 / +Spe / 252 / +0
289 / Yanma / 95 / Neutral / 252 / +0
287 / Monferno / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +0
285 / Magmar / 93 / Neutral / 252 / +0
284 / Charmeleon, Quilava, Staravia / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +0
279 / Pikachu, Poliwhirl, Torracat / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +0
278 / Salandit / 77 / +Spe / 252 / +0
273 / Trumbeak / 75 / +Spe / 252 / +0
271 / Krokorok / 74 / +Spe / 252 / +0
269 / Seadra / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +0
269 / Braixen, Poipole / 73 / +Spe / 252 / +0
262 / Dragonair, Natu, Vibrava / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +0
261 / Monferno / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +0
258 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +0
256 / Fraxure / 67 / +Spe / 252 / +0
253 / Salandit / 77 / Neutral / 252 / +0
251 / Hakamo-o, Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +0
245 / Braixen, Poipole / 73 / Neutral / 252 / +0
240 / Meditite, Nuzleaf, Pawniard, Rufflet, Vullaby / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +0
239 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +0
236 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +0
235 / Drilbur / 68 / Neutral / 252 / +0
234 / Bunnelby, Quilladin / 57 / +Spe / 252 / +0
233 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +0
229 / Combusken Lampent, Pignite / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +0
229 / Hakamo-o, Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +0
227 / Cranidos / 58 / +Spe / 220 / +0
227 / Pawniard / 60 / +Spe / 204 / +0
227 / Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 244/ +0
223 / Dartrix / 52 / +Spe / 252 / +0
221 / Pupitar / 51 / +Spe / 252 / +0
219 / Meditite, Pawniard, Rufflet, Vullaby / 60 / Neutral / 252 / +0
218 / Brionne, Klang, Lombre / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +0
218 / Murkrow / 91 / Neutral / 0 / +0
216 / Poliwhirl, Torracat / 90 / Neutral / 0 / +0
216 / Swirlix / 49 / +Spe / 252 / +0
215 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / Neutral / 252 / +0
214 / Scraggy / 48 / +Spe / 252 / +0
213 / Bunnelby / 57 / Neutral / 252/ +0
212 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +0
209 / Combusken, Pignite / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +0
207 / Hakamo-o / 65 / Neutral / 164 / +0
207 / Machoke, Magnemite / 45 / +Spe / 252 / +0
206 / Misdreavus, Staryu / 85 / Neutral / 0 / +0
202 / Servine / 83 / Neutral / 0 / +0
201 / Swadloon / 42 / +Spe / 252 / +0

100-199
:Mareanie::Metang::Quilladin:
199 / Brionne / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +0
198 / Monferno / 81 / Neutral / 0 / +0
197 / Swirlix / 49 / Neutral / 252 / +0
196 / Staravia / 80 / Neutral / 0 / +0
196 / Lairon, Porygon / 40 / +Spe / 252 / +0
195 / Scraggy / 48 / Neutral / 252 / +0
189 / Machoke, Magnemite, Mudbray, Sealeo / 45 / Neutral / 252 / +0
185 / Graveler-Alola / 35 / +Spe / 252 / +0
184 / Krokorok / 74 / Neutral / 0 / +0
182 / Braixen / 73 / Neutral / 0 / +0
180 / Metang / 50 / Neutral / 176 / +0
179 / Lairon / 40 / Neutral / 252 / +0
179 / Clamperl / 32 / +Spe / 252 / +0
176 / Dragonair, Natu, Vibrava / 70 / Neutral / 0 / +0
174 / Palpitoad / 69 / Neutral / 0 / +0
169 / Graveler-Alola / 35 / Neutral / 252 / +0
167 / Marill / 40 / Neutral / 204 / +0
166 / Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 0 / +0
156 / Ivysaur, Pawniard, Rufflet, Sliggoo, Tangela, Vullaby / 60 / Neutral / 0 / +0
152 / Wartortle, Zweilous / 58 / Neutral / 0 / +0
150 / Quilladin / 57 / Neutral / 0 / +0
146 / Pignite / 55 / Neutral / 0 / +0
140 / Dartrix / 52 / Neutral / 0 / +0
137 / Graveler-Alola, Omanyte / 35 / Neutral / 124 / +0
137 / Makuhita / 25 / Neutral 204 / +0
136 / Brionne, Marshtomp, Metang, Prinplup, Shelgon / 50 / Neutral / 0 / +0
126 / Machoke, Mareanie, Mudbray, Sealeo / 45 / Neutral / 0 / +0
122 / Marshtomp / 50 / -Spe / 0 / +0
120 / Swadloon / 42 / Neutral / 0 / +0
116 / Eelektrik, Gloom, Lairon, Marill, Porygon, Togetic / 40 / Neutral / 0 / +0
106 / Clefairy / 35 / Neutral / 0 / +0
104 / Sliggoo / 60 / Neutral / -1
100 / Hippopotas / 32 / Neutral / 0 / +0

99 or less
:Munchlax::Ferroseed::Dusclops:
96 / Duosion, Lickitung / 30 / Neutral / 0 / +0
90 / Dewpider / 27 / Neutral / 0 / +0
86 / Dusclops, Grimer-Alola, Makuhita / 25 / Neutral / 0 / +0
82 / Spritzee / 23 / Neutral / 0 / +0
66 / Sandygast, Slowpoke / 15 / Neutral / 0 / +0
56 / Ferroseed / 10 / Neutral / 0 / +0
46 / Munchlax / 5 / Neutral / 0 / +0

Stealth Rock Users
:Clefairy: :Monferno: :Metang: :Marshtomp: :Gabite: :Pawniard: :Ferroseed: :Prinplup: :Krokorok: :Lairon: :Mudbray: :Hippopotas: :Sandygast: :Grotle: :Omanyte:

Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Sticky Web Users

Spikes: :Roselia: :Quilladin: :Ferroseed: :Whirlipede: :Shelmet: :Omanyte:

Toxic Spikes: :Frogadier: :Roselia: :Mareanie: :Whirlipede: :Nidoran-M: :Shelmet: :Omanyte:

Sticky Web: :Dewpider: :Swadloon: :Cutiefly: :Swirlix:

Hazard Control

Rapid Spin: :Wartortle: :Staryu: :Drilbur:

Defog: :Servine: :Staravia: :Vullaby: :Togetic: :Prinplup: :Vibrava: :Dartrix: :Murkrow: :Rufflet: :Fletchinder: :Trumbeak:

Magic Bounce: :Natu:

Priority Users

Sucker Punch: :Pawniard: :Murkrow: :Weepinbell: :Dartrix: :Pignite:

Mach Punch: :Monferno: :Magmar:

Aqua Jet: :Totodile: :Marill:

Bullet Punch: :Machoke: :Metang:

Quick Attack: :Staravia: :Eevee: :Bunnelby:

Extreme Speed: :Dragonair: :Pikachu:

Momentum and Pivots

Volt Switch: :Electabuzz: :Eelektrik: :Pikachu: :Magnemite:

U-turn: :Frogadier: :Monferno: :Staravia: :Torracat: :Rufflet: :Trumbeak: :Eelektrik: :Mienfoo: :Vibrava: :Bunnelby:

Regenerator: :Mareanie: :Tangela: :Mienfoo: :Slowpoke:

Knock Off Users
:Servine: :Grimer-Alola: :Machoke: :Pawniard: :Clefairy: :Kadabra: :Mareanie: :Vullaby: :Krokorok: :Ferroseed: :Tangela: :Marill: :Trumbeak: :Eelektrik: :Lickitung: :Weepinbell: :Ivysaur: :Mienfoo: :Pikachu:

Trappers

Pursuit: :Grimer-Alola: :Krokorok: :Metang: :Munchlax: :Pawniard: :Staravia: :Murkrow:

Magnet Pull: :Magnemite: :Graveler-Alola:

Other trappers: :Marill: (Whirlpool) :Braixen: (Fire Spin)

Clerics

Wish: :Clefairy: :Togetic: :Lickitung: :Spritzee: :Shelgon: :Braixen:

Heal Bell / Aromatherapy: :Clefairy: :Roselia: :Togetic: :Servine: :Misdreavus: :Lickitung: :Spritzee:

Weather Setters

Rain: :Dusclops: :Misdreavus: :Riolu: :Kadabra: :Sliggoo: :Palpitoad: :Purrloin:

Sun: :Dusclops: :Riolu: :Murkrow: :Onix: :Misdreavus: :Kadabra: :Braixen: :Purrloin:

Weather Abusers

Rain: :Poliwhirl: :Palpitoad: :Lombre: :Omanyte: :Frogadier: :Croconaw: :Seadra:

Sun: :Weepinbell: :Ivysaur: :Gloom: :Tangela: :Combusken: :Magmar: :Braixen:

Trick Room Setters
:Dusclops: :Duosion: :Bronzor: :Spritzee:

Wallbreakers

Physical: :Machoke: :Monferno: :Combusken: :Fraxure: :Pawniard: :Klang: :Rufflet: :Magmar: :Staravia: :Hakamo-o: :Torracat: :Murkrow: :Croconaw: :Trumbeak: :Fletchinder: :Dartrix: :Nidoran-M: :Sliggoo: :Eelektrik:

Special: :Haunter: :Frogadier: :Servine: :Kadabra: :Clefairy: :Monferno: :Misdreavus: :Duosion: :Togetic: :Lampent: :Eevee: :Poipole: :Salandit: :Spritzee:

Boosting Sweepers

Swords Dance: :Monferno: :Combusken: :Pawniard: :Fraxure: :Croconaw: :Fletchinder: :Trumbeak: :Dartrix:

Curse: :Munchlax: :Sliggoo: :Ferroseed: :Hippopotas: :Eelektrik:

Nasty Plot: :Monferno: :Misdreavus: :Togetic: :Poipole: :Salandit: :Spritzee:

Calm Mind: :Clefairy: :Duosion: :Kadabra: :Misdreavus: :Lampent: :Spritzee: :Dusclops: :Slowpoke:

Dragon Dance: :Fraxure: :Hakamo-o: :Croconaw: :Dragonair: :Scraggy:

Bulk Up: :Monferno: :Machoke: :Hakamo-o: :Rufflet: :Torracat:

Z Move: :Combusken: (Z-Mirror Move) :Murkrow:(Z-Mirror Move) :Eevee: (Extreme Evoboost) :Krokorok:(Z-Me First)

Other: :Metang: (Agility) :Klang:(Shift Gear) :Gabite:(Hone Claws) :Lairon:(Rock Polish) :Marill:(Belly Drum) :Nidoran-M: (Hone Claws) :Weepinbell:(Growth):Ivysaur:(Growth) :Seadra:(Focus Energy, Agility) :Poliwhirl:(Belly Drum)

Stallbreakers and Taunt/Encore Users
:Frogadier: :Haunter: :Servine: :Kadabra: :Machoke: :Misdreavus: :Pawniard: :Duosion: :Rufflet: :Torracat:

Walls

Physical: :Clefairy: :Mareanie: :Metang: :Quilladin: :Staravia: :Tangela: :Prinplup: :Gloom: :Wartortle: :Lairon: :Shelgon: :Spritzee: :Slowpoke:

Special: :Clefairy: :Roselia: :Servine: :Grimer-Alola: :Vullaby: :Sliggoo: :Ferroseed: :Vibrava: :Spritzee:

Mixed: :Mareanie: :Dusclops: :Munchlax:

General Tanks: :Machoke: :Metang: :Marshtomp: :Mudbray: :Hippopotas:

Electric Immunities And Checks: :Marshtomp: :Gabite: :Krokorok: :Mudbray: :Vibrava: :Hippopotas: :Sandygast: :Roselia: :Servine: :Sliggoo: :Ivysaur:
 
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ORAS NFE
Welcome to Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire NFE! Here you will find the Viability Rankings and other resources for the ORAS Metagame. If you would like to suggest any changes to the VR, leave a constructive post in the thread.

Banlist:
  • The following Pokemon are banned in ORAS NFE: Chansey, Doublade, Fletchinder, Gligar, Golbat, Gurdurr, Haunter, Machoke, Magneton, Pawniard, Piloswine, Porygon2, Rhydon, Servine, Scyther, Sneasel, Vigoroth, as well as any fully evolved Pokemon
  • The following abilities are banned in ORAS NFE: Arena Trap, Drought, Moody, Shadow Tag
  • The following moves are banned in ORAS NFE: Baton Pass
S-Rank

Reserved for absolutely meta defining Pokemon.

S

IMG_6385.PNG
Clefairy

IMG_6398.PNG
Monferno

A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that do great in the current meta, and otherwise need little to no support to function, or ones that provide a tremendous amount of support.

A+

IMG_6269.PNG
Electabuzz

IMG_6229.PNG
Frogadier

IMG_6421.PNG
Kadabra

A

IMG_6218.PNG
Gabite

IMG_6380.PNG
Misdreavus

IMG_6225.PNG
Quilladin

A-

IMG_6387.PNG
Duosion

IMG_6393.PNG
Fraxure

IMG_6215.PNG
Krokorok

IMG_6360.PNG
Lampent

IMG_6216.PNG
Metang

IMG_6299.PNG
Roselia

IMG_6435.PNG
Staravia

B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that work well in the meta or can provide valuable niches, but otherwise have large competition or flaws that make them not as viable as A-Rank Pokemon.

B+

IMG_6403.PNG
Combusken

IMG_6339.PNG
Klang

IMG_6319.PNG
Magmar

IMG_6455.PNG
Marshtomp

IMG_6453.PNG
Munchlax

IMG_6248.PNG
Rufflet

IMG_6252.PNG
Vullaby

B

IMG_6394.PNG
Croconaw

IMG_6375.PNG
Ferroseed

IMG_6377.PNG
Hippopotas

IMG_6411.PNG
Marill

IMG_6358.PNG
Togetic

IMG_6240.PNG
Wartortle

B-

IMG_6306.PNG
Dusclops

IMG_6219.PNG
Lairon

IMG_6405.PNG
Murkrow

IMG_6501.PNG
Natu

IMG_6213.PNG
Prinplup

IMG_6465.PNG
Sliggoo

IMG_6436.PNG
Tangela

IMG_6449.PNG
Vibrava

C-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have a notable niche, but are generally outclassed or have a major flaw/major flaws that hold them back.

C+

IMG_6345.PNG
Eelektrik

IMG_6527.PNG
Frillish

IMG_6303.PNG
Lickitung

IMG_6281.PNG
Mienfoo

IMG_6268.PNG
Pikachu

IMG_6418.PNG
Seadra

IMG_6413.PNG
Weepinbell

IMG_6226.PNG
Whirlipede

C

IMG_6314.PNG
Ivysaur

IMG_6495.PNG
Shelgon

IMG_6497.PNG
Slowpoke

IMG_6498.PNG
Swadloon

C-

IMG_6528.PNG
Chinchou

IMG_6267.PNG
Dragonair

IMG_6496.PNG
Drilbur

IMG_6499.PNG
Grotle

IMG_6502.PNG
Porygon

IMG_6307.PNG
Riolu

IMG_6241.PNG
Staryu

IMG_6529.PNG
Tentacool

IMG_6504.PNG
Voltorb

IMG_6503.PNG
Zweilous

612 / Poliwhirl / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +2
590 / Seadra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +2
572 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +3
558 / Poliwhirl / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +2
530 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +3
524 / Dragonair / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +2
522 / Combusken / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +3
516 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +2
512 / Fraxure / 67 /+Spe / 252 / +2
510 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 136 / +4
508 / Electabuzz, Kadabra / +Spe / 252 / +1
483 / Frogadier / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +1
480 / Ivysaur, Nuzleaf / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +2
478 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +2
472 / Croconaw / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +2
470 / Drilbur / 68 / Neutral / 252 / +2
469 / Magmar / 93 / +Spe / 252 / +1
466 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +2
458 / Combusken, Weepinbell / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +2
442 / Seadra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +1
438 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 40 / +4
436 / Klang, Lombre, Metang / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +2
433 / Gabite / 82 / +Spe / 252 / +1
432 / Swirlix / 49 / +Spe / 252 / +2
430 / Monferno / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +1
427 / Magmar / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +1
426 / Quilava, Staravia / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +1
424 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +2
418 / Combusken, Weepinbell / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +2
406 / Krokorok / 74 / +Spe / 252 / +1
403 / Braixen / 73 / +Spe / 252 / +1

398 / Klang, Lombre, Metang / 50 / Neutral / 252 / +2
393 / Dragonair / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +1
392 / Lairon / 40 / +Spe / 252 / +2
387 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +1
384 / Fraxure / 67 / +Spe / 252 / +1
376 / Roselia / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +1
370 / Omanyte / 35 / +Spe / 252 / +2
367 / Braixen / 73 / Neutral / 252 / +1
360 / Rufflet, Vullaby / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +1
358 / Gloom, Lairon / 40 / Neutral / 252 / +2
358 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +1
358 / Clamperl / 32 / +Spe / 252 / +2
354 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +1
349 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +1
343 / Combusken, Lampent / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +1
343 / Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +1
340 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 136 / +2
339 / Electabuzz, Kadabra / 105 / +Spe / 252 / +0
331 / Pupitar / 51 / +Spe / 252 / +1
327 / Shelgon / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +1
322 / Frogadier / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +0
318 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +1
313 / Combusken / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +1
313 / Magmar / 93 / +Spe / 252 / +0
309 / Murkrow / 91 / +Spe / 252 / +0
306 / Pikachu, Poliwhirl / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +0

295 / Misdreavus, Seadra, Staryu / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +0
292 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 40 / +2
289 / Gabite / 82 / +Spe / 252 / +0
287 / Monferno / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +0
285 / Magmar / 93 / Neutral / 252 / +0
284 / Quilava, Staravia / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +0
279 / Pikachu, Poliwhirl / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +0
271 / Krokorok / 74 / +Spe / 252 / +0
269 / Seadra / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +0
269 / Braixen / 73 / +Spe / 252 / +0
262 / Dragonair, Natu, Vibrava / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +0
261 / Monferno / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +0
258 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +0
256 / Fraxure / 67 / +Spe / 252 / +0
251 / Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +0
245 / Braixen / 73 / Neutral / 252 / +0
241 / Misdreavus / 85 / Neutral / 140 / +0
240 / Nuzleaf, Rufflet, Vullaby / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +0
239 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +0
236 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +0
235 / Drilbur / 68 / Neutral / 252 / +0
234 / Quilladin / 57 / +Spe / 252 / +0
233 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +0
229 / Combusken Lampent, Pignite / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +0
229 / Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +0
227 / Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 244/ +0
221 / Pupitar / 51 / +Spe / 252 / +0
220 / Monferno / 81 / Neutral / 88 / +0
219 / Rufflet, Sliggoo, Vullaby / 60 / Neutral / 252 / +0
218 / Klang, Lombre / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +0
218 / Murkrow / 91 / Neutral / 0 / +0
216 / Poliwhirl / 90 / Neutral / 0 / +0
216 / Swirlix / 49 / +Spe / 252 / +0
215 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / Neutral / 252 / +0
212 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +0
209 / Combusken, Pignite / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +0
206 / Misdreavus, Staryu / 85 / Neutral / 0 / +0
201 / Swadloon / 42 / +Spe / 252 / +0

198 / Monferno / 81 / Neutral / 0 / +0
197 / Swirlix / 49 / Neutral / 252 / +0
196 / Staravia / 80 / Neutral / 0 / +0
196 / Lairon / 40 / +Spe / 252 / +0
184 / Krokorok / 74 / Neutral / 0 / +0
182 / Braixen / 73 / Neutral / 0 / +0
180 / Metang / 50 / Neutral / 176 / +0
179 / Lairon / 40 / Neutral / 252 / +0
179 / Clamperl / 32 / +Spe / 252 / +0
176 / Dragonair, Natu, Vibrava / 70 / Neutral / 0 / +0
174 / Palpitoad / 69 / Neutral / 0 / +0
170 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 136 / +0
167 / Marill / 40 / Neutral / 204 / +0
166 / Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 0 / +0
161 / Sliggoo / 60 / Neutral / 20 / 0
156 / Ivysaur, Rufflet, Tangela, Vullaby / 60 / Neutral / 0 / +0
152 / Wartortle, Zweilous / 58 / Neutral / 0 / +0
150 / Quilladin / 57 / Neutral / 0 / +0
146 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 40 / +0
146 / Pignite / 55 / Neutral / 0 / +0
137 / Omanyte / 35 / Neutral / 124 / +0
136 / Marshtomp, Metang, Prinplup, Shelgon / 50 / Neutral / 0 / +0
122 / Marshtomp / 50 / -Spe / 0 / +0
120 / Swadloon / 42 / Neutral / 0 / +0
116 / Eelektrik, Gloom, Lairon, Marill, Togetic / 40 / Neutral / 0 / +0
107 / Sliggoo / 60 / Neutral / 20 / -1
106 / Clefairy / 35 / Neutral / 0 / +0
100 / Hippopotas / 32 / Neutral / 0 / +0

96 / Duosion, Lickitung / 30 / Neutral / 0 / +0
86 / Dusclops / 25 / Neutral / 0 / +0
82 / Spritzee / 23 / Neutral / 0 / +0
66 / Slowpoke / 15 / Neutral / 0 / +0
56 / Ferroseed / 10 / Neutral / 0 / +0
46 / Munchlax / 5 / Neutral / 0 / +0

Sample Teams

HazardStack Bulky Offense - Submitted by Dom
IMG_6527.PNG
IMG_6215.PNG
IMG_6398.PNG
IMG_6463.PNG
IMG_6285.PNG
IMG_6435.PNG


HazardStack Offense - Submitted by SBPC and Indol
IMG_6285.PNG
IMG_6390.PNG
IMG_6398.PNG
IMG_6273.PNG
IMG_6215.PNG
IMG_6463.PNG
 
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SBPC

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BW2 NFE
Welcome to Black and White 2 NFE! Here you will find the viability rankings and other resources for the BW2 NFE Metagame! If you wish to suggest changes to the VR, please leave an intelligent post in the thread!


Banlist:
The following Pokemon are banned in BW NFE: Chansey, Dusclops, Fraxure, Gligar, Golbat, Gurdurr, Haunter, Machoke, Magneton, Riolu, Rhydon, Piloswine, Porygon2, Scyther, Vigoroth as well as any fully evolved Pokemon
The following abilities are banned in BW NFE: Arena Trap, Drought, Moody, Sand Veil, Shadow Tag, Snow Cloak
The following moves are banned in BW NFE: Baton Pass
 
Last edited:
DPP NFE
Welcome to Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum NFE! Here you will find the viability rankings and other resources for the DPP NFE Metagame! If you wish to suggest changes to the VR, please leave an intelligent post in the thread!


Banlist:

Players cannot use the following Pokémon: Chansey, Dragonair, Dusclops, Electabuzz, Haunter, Machoke, Magmar, Magneton, Porygon2, Rhydon, Scyther, Sneasel
Players cannot use the following abilities: Snow Cloak, Sand Veil
Players cannot use the following moves: Baton Pass, Sunny Day
Players cannot use the following items: Deep Sea Tooth, Light Ball, Light Clay, Thick Club

S-Rank

Reserved for absolutely meta defining Pokemon. These Pokemon are almost always able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well.

S


Monferno

Golbat

A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that do great in the current meta, and otherwise need little to no support to function, or ones that provide a tremendous amount of support. They tend to have a few flaws which can be overlooked when compared to their amazing traits,

A+


Gligar

Misdreavus

Piloswine

A


Diglett

Metang

Roselia

Vigoroth

A-


Kadabra

Wartortle

Yanma

B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that work well in the meta or can provide valuable niches, but otherwise have large competition or notable flaws that make them not as viable as A-Rank Pokemon. They often require more support in order to bring out their full potential.

B+


Croconaw

Marshtomp

Munchlax

Tangela

B

Bronzor

Grovyle

Lairon

Murkrow

Staravia

B-


Hippopotas

Meditite

Shelgon

Trapinch

C-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have a notable niche, but are generally outclassed or have a major flaw/major flaws that hold them back. They also face a large amount of competition from more commonly used Pokemon.

C+


Charmeleon

Gastly

Onix

Snover

Staryu

C


Clefairy

Cranidos

Pineco

Tentacool

Voltorb

C-


Combusken

Pupitar
 
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The current state of ORAS NFE

I'm going to open discussion on the current state of ORAS NFE. This is something the current ORAS Council has been paying close attention to, and are currently divided on in terms of how to address it. Now that we have an oldgens thread, we can argue and make posts properly. I'm going to give an overview of what I think are the bigger threats in ORAS NFE right now, then open the floor for people to discuss what should or should not be suspected at this current stage of ORAS. This post is an overview, so I'm going to try my best not to include personal arguments or opinions, I can do that when hopefully replying to some arguments.

ORAS NFE Bo3 Tour Usage Stats

Running from about early-mid September til late October, there was a discord-based ORAS NFE Bo3 Single Elimination Tour. The usage stats for this tour can be found below.

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Monferno | 98 | 83.05% | 51.02% |
| 2 | Pawniard | 65 | 55.08% | 50.77% |
| 3 | Clefairy | 51 | 43.22% | 50.98%
| 4 | Frogadier | 49 | 41.53% | 53.06% |
| 5 | Quilladin | 37 | 31.36% | 45.95% |
| 6 | Staravia | 36 | 30.51% | 44.44% |
| 7 | Lampent | 30 | 25.42% | 60.00% |
| 8 | Electabuzz | 26 | 22.03% | 38.46% |
| 9 | Kadabra | 25 | 21.19% | 52.00% |
| 10 | Roselia | 24 | 20.34% | 37.50% |
| 11 | Gabite | 23 | 19.49% | 52.17% |
| 12 | Vullaby | 17 | 14.41% | 64.71% |
| 13 | Metang | 16 | 13.56% | 62.50% |
| 13 | Klang | 16 | 13.56% | 43.75% |
| 15 | Misdreavus | 15 | 12.71% | 46.67% |
| 15 | Marshtomp | 15 | 12.71% | 40.00% |
| 17 | Fraxure | 14 | 11.86% | 42.86% |
| 18 | Munchlax | 13 | 11.02% | 69.23% |
| 18 | Krokorok | 13 | 11.02% | 38.46% |
| 20 | Magmar | 10 | 8.47% | 90.00% |
| 20 | Vibrava | 10 | 8.47% | 60.00% |
| 22 | Wartortle | 9 | 7.63% | 33.33% |
| 23 | Ferroseed | 7 | 5.93% | 57.14% |
| 24 | Ivysaur | 6 | 5.08% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Croconaw | 6 | 5.08% | 50.00% |
| 26 | Swadloon | 5 | 4.24% | 80.00% |
| 26 | Grotle | 5 | 4.24% | 60.00% |
| 26 | Togetic | 5 | 4.24% | 40.00% |
| 29 | Combusken | 4 | 3.39% | 75.00% |
| 29 | Drilbur | 4 | 3.39% | 75.00% |
| 29 | Duosion | 4 | 3.39% | 50.00% |
| 29 | Marill | 4 | 3.39% | 50.00% |
| 29 | Slowpoke | 4 | 3.39% | 25.00% |
| 29 | Frillish | 4 | 3.39% | 25.00% |
| 29 | Natu | 4 | 3.39% | 25.00% |
| 36 | Chinchou | 3 | 2.54% | 66.67% |
| 36 | Prinplup | 3 | 2.54% | 0.00% |
| 38 | Lickitung | 2 | 1.69% | 100.00% |
| 38 | Floette | 2 | 1.69% | 50.00% |
| 38 | Hippopotas | 2 | 1.69% | 50.00% |
| 38 | Tangela | 2 | 1.69% | 50.00% |
| 38 | Eelektrik | 2 | 1.69% | 0.00% |
| 38 | Zweilous | 2 | 1.69% | 0.00% |
| 38 | Stunky | 2 | 1.69% | 0.00% |
| 45 | Murkrow | 1 | 0.85% | 100.00% |
| 45 | Sliggoo | 1 | 0.85% | 100.00% |
| 45 | Floette-White | 1 | 0.85% | 100.00% |
| 45 | Nidorina | 1 | 0.85% | 100.00% |
| 45 | Sandshrew | 1 | 0.85% | 100.00% |
| 45 | Pineco | 1 | 0.85% | 100.00% |
| 45 | Trubbish | 1 | 0.85% | 0.00% |
| 45 | Lairon | 1 | 0.85% | 0.00% |
| 45 | Rufflet | 1 | 0.85% | 0.00% |
| 45 | Cascoon | 1 | 0.85% | 0.00% |
| 45 | Dusclops | 1 | 0.85% | 0.00% |
| 45 | Quilava | 1 | 0.85% | 0.00% |
| 45 | Spewpa | 1 | 0.85% | 0.00% |
| 45 | Floette-Blue | 1 | 0.85% | 0.00% |


Monferno sits at a very high 83% usage, while Pawniard also sits at an impressive 55% usage. Both Pokemon, especially Monferno, have been brought up by various community and council members as potential suspects.

Monferno

Monferno is objectively the best Pokemon in the tier. With access to Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, strong physical and special Fire/Fight STABs, priority Fight STABs, and good coverage options for offensive sets, to Slack Off, Stealth Rock, U-turn, Taunt, Toxic etc as good utility options for bulkier sets, Monferno has incredible set versatility. I made a list of all viable sets below to show just how impressive Monferno's versatility is. Some sets are obviously better and more reliable than others, but most if not all of these sets have seen tournament play.

ORAS NFE Physical Wallbreaker (Monferno) @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch / Shadow Claw / Rock Slide
- Swords Dance

ORAS NFE PhysDef Wall or Rocker (Monferno) @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Def / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Slack Off
- Mach Punch / Shadow Claw / Rock Slide / U-turn / Stealth Rock

ORAS NFE Choice Scarf Pivot (Monferno) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Gunk Shot / Shadow Claw / Rock Slide

ORAS NFE Special Wallbreaker (Monferno) @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Vacuum Wave / Grass Knot / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nasty Plot

ORAS NFE Choice Choice Band (Monferno) @ Choice Band
Ability: Blaze / Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Mach Punch

ORAS NFE Spdef Wall or Rocker (Monferno) @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpD / 88 Spe
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Slack Off
- Mach Punch / Shadow Claw / Rock Slide / U-turn / Stealth Rock

ORAS NFE Stallbreaker (Monferno) @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpD / 128 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Slack Off
- Flare Blitz

ORAS NFE Bulk Up (Monferno) @ Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 140 HP / 4 Atk / 248 SpD / 116 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Slack Off
- Fire Punch
- Low Sweep


Predicting which Monferno set and what coverage it is running at team preview or during a game is very difficult because of its versatility, and keeping a defensive check alive and healthy means little if the Monferno has the correct coverage to beat you, or boosts up on your weaker defensive side. Typical higher ranking Monferno checks consist of Marshtomp, Gabite, Lampent, Staravia if Monferno is physical, Vullaby, Croconaw, Marill, Wartortle, Frillish, Slowpoke etc, but many do not appreciate switching into any attack from an offensive set, especially if Monferno strikes on the weaker defense, and defensive stallbreaker sets can wall and beat some of these checks. It is difficult to keep some of these defensive checks alive and healthy enough to check Monferno late-game, especially if offensive Monferno is carrying coverage over priority for your check or if the check itself lacks reliable recovery.

However, one big issue with offensive wallbreaker and cleaner Monferno sets is the fact that it has to choose what it is checked or revenge killed by when it picks its 4th moveslot. In theory and in teambuilder, Monferno can technically break through or beat some of its checks with appropriate coverage, but the cost of giving up STAB priority is huge. No Mach/Vac lets the likes of Frogadier, Electabuzz, Scarf Staravia, Scarf Rufflet, Scarf Krokorok, and other faster frailer Pokemon revenge kill you. Running Grass Knot or Rock Slide or Shadow Claw for specific checks means you open youself up to being revenge killed easier. However, Monferno, especially offensive sets, are so dangerous in ORAS that having an almost guaranteed switch-in plus multiple soft checks is mandatory, so you will get mileage out of lure sets in most games.

Pawniard

Pawniard is the other big offensive threat in ORAS NFE right now. Sporting a fantastic defensive and offensive typing, access to Swords Dance, STAB Knock Off, unnerfed Sucker Punch, and Iron Head lets it set up against both offensive and defensive teams fairly easily, while having the tools to break through bulkier teams or clean through offense and HO. Defensive checks to Pawniard are limited to basically Monferno, Gabite, Marshtomp and Hippopotas, all of which bar Monferno do not appreciate switching in and can be overwhelmed by +2 Knock Off or Sucker Punch after chip. Offensive counterplay is heavily limited by STAB Sucker Punch, especially at +2.
In addition, Pawniard is one of the best abusers of Spikes and other hazards in the tier, acting as a fantastic wallbreaker, cleaner and Defog deterrent all in one Pokemon.
One could fairly easily argue that the ubiquity of Monferno isn't wholly caused by its individual merits, but by the threat that is Pawniard.

Eviolite Pawniard also has surprisingly good bulk, allowing it to tank one attack from stronger attackers in the tier and clean mid- to late-game. Some calcs to demonstrate this are below:

252 SpA Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 178-211 (77 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (178, 181, 183, 186, 187, 189, 192, 193, 196, 198, 199, 202, 204, 207, 208, 211)

252+ Atk Metang Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 148-176 (64 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (148, 150, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176)

0 Atk Quilladin Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 156-188 (67.5 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (156, 160, 160, 164, 164, 168, 168, 172, 172, 176, 176, 180, 180, 184, 184, 188)


On the other hand, Pawniard is highly telegraphed in what is does. It has very little move or set versatility in ORAS NFE, which means it is less likely to catch you off guard with any lure sets. Pawniard also has a x4 Fighting weakness and, therefore, is fairly easy to lure. Standard Pokemon that Pawniard would typically set up on such as Staravia, Roselia, Quilladin, Duosion, etc can run fighting coverage or Hidden Power Fighting to lure Pawniard. However, fitting these moves onto defensive Pokemon is difficult.

To highlight how dangerous Pawnaird can be against teams without Moferno, I've compiled some replays. Keep in mind that Monferno sits at 83% and Pawniard 55% usage, finding tour replays with this scenario is rare, but I found 6 tour level replays.

Pawn vs No Monferno Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-987517003
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-988054802
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-990970930
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-991193381
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-991585692
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-999591852

I know the timing for this discussion isn't great; SWSH just came out, NFE is level 2 and has a subforum etc, but this is probably the best time to start this unfortunately. Would highly encourage anyone with an opinion to post here, especially fellow council members. I'll make sure to respond to most points raised by other people. PMing or tagging me in the oldgens channel also works if you want to bring something up there.

With the summary out of the way, to anyone who plays ORAS NFE at a competitive level or is interested in ORAS NFE, what do you think about the current state of the metagame? Do you think one of Pawniard or Monferno should be suspected or do you think nothing is currently worthy of a suspect and why?
 
When starting discussion on a suspect or ban, burden of proof is always on the side of whoever wants to argue in favor of said suspect or ban. We have a trend of people being far too liberal with bans, resulting in artificial restrictions that lead to their own set of problems. We should be trying to create the best meta possible, while at the same time reducing the limitations to a minimum.

I also want to disclose that I am adamantly anti-suspect and anti-ban at this point in time. And I definitely want to defend my standpoint. But in line with my first sentence, there's not much for me to go off of, since there haven't been any substantial pro-suspect or pro-ban arguments yet. So I would like to encourage people in favour of a suspect or ban to start posting arguments (or even people who are indifferent or against a suspect / ban - nothing is stopping you from playing devil's advocate). And, if possible, try to argue in terms of the Tiering Policy Framework.
 
First off, sorry for the double post. But after a bit of consideration, there's actually some stuff I can say preemptively regarding this discussion.


"The majority of our potential suspect discussion will center around the defined versions of uncompetitive, broken, and unhealthy and how a particular suspect element lowers some component of player skill within those three constructs. "

I doubt anyone would argue that Monferno or Pawniard are uncompetitive, and unhealthy on its own is shaky. That leaves broken to focus on.

Broken:
  • "They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage."
Now I went through the replays from the post Machoke ORAS tour and looked at the win rates of both Monferno and Pawniard. If "They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. " really applies, one would expect this to be reflected in objective statistics.
Now as Simbo already mentioned, Monferno had an overall win rate of 51.02%, and Pawniard had an overall win rate of 50.77%. These win rates certainly don't look like either of the two is dominating. You have to keep in mind though, that these numbers are skewed - especially in the case of Monferno - through games where both players used the Pokemon in question, pushing the win rate closer to 50%.
That's why I only looked at games where only one of the two players was using Monferno / Pawniard. Here the results:

:Monferno: (Number of games: 20)
Monferno won → 11
Monferno lost → 9
Monferno win rate → 55%

:Pawniard: (Number of games: 28)
Pawniard won → 16
Pawniard lost → 12
Pawniard win rate → 57%
--
Out of the 16 wins, 4 were vs a team without Monferno
Out of the 12 losses, 1 was vs a team without Monferno

Obviously looking at statistics alone is not enough, since there are a good number of variables playing a role in this result. But 55% ad 57% don't look like a "drastic disadvantage" for the opposing player, "such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant".

  • "These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. "

Out of our S to B+ ranks, Clefairy, Gabite, Kadabra, Lampent, Duosion, Staravia and Marshtomp can serve as checks to the different Monferno sets. While Monferno, Kadabra, Electabuzz, Gabite, Krokorok, Combusken, Magmar and Marshtomp can serve as checks to Pawniard. Neither of them put your team at a disadvantage somewhere else - you are even free to use several Pokemon from this list without compromising team quality.
Most of these have limited longevity, but they still qualify as checks.

And regarding the versatility of Monferno and the high usage:
From a teambuilding perspective, there's nothing wrong with looking at the different Monferno sets as different Pokemon. A Swords Dance Combusken and a Swords Dance Monferno are much more similar than a Swords Dance Monferno and a defensive Taunt Monferno. So even when people use Monferno in 80% of teams, there's much variety.
The situation where Monferno should be looked at as one Pokemon with a bunch of different sets is when you face it in battle and have to figure out which set it is. But remember, the goal of all suspect discussion is to make skill matter. And figuring out which Monferno set your opponent is running requires skill. There's metagame knowledge, teambuilding knowledge and the ability to scout effectively - this scouting aspect is also something you have keep in mind when preparing your team vs Monferno.
 
State of ORAS NFE 2

To give a small update on current ORAS NFE, the council is currently fairly split on three options: Suspect Monferno then Pawniard if Monferno goes, suspect Pawniard then see what Monferno is like post-Pawniard if Pawniard goes, and suspect neither. Therefore, if you are interested in the metagame, please make your opinion known here; you'll probably be playing the result of this in Classic and potentially teamtours in the future.

I personally fall in the second category, the suspect Pawn and, if it goes, keep a close eye on Monf and meta development post-Pawn in classic. If you want an overview of what Pawn does in ORAS NFE, read my previous post a few posts up, should explain that.

Pawn Checks and Counters

Everyone who has played even only a few games of ORAS knows Pawn's best and only viable long term counter is sitting pretty with 83% usage. Part of that usage comes from the fact that Monferno is genuinely a fantastic standalone Pokemon, but part of that usage also comes from its almost unique ability in this meta to be a long term counter for Pawn.

From the Viability Rankings, I've listed and ranked each mon as a check, counter, neither, or setup bait for Pawniard.
This is the check/counter definitions I used

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

S-rank

:clefairy: - Loses to Pawniard, Pawniard can set up on it. Cannot switch in

:monferno: - Counter, switches into Pawniard

A+ rank

:electabuzz: - Cannot switch in. Unless its Specs and locked into an unfavourable move, it beats Pawniard. However, non Evio sets die to +2 Sucker Punch at full. Even Evio has a 68.8% chance to die to +2 Sucker after rocks. Overall, an unreliable check that can be muscled through fairly easily
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 226-267 (83 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (226, 229, 231, 234, 237, 240, 241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 255, 258, 261, 264, 267)

:frogadier: - Cannot switch in. Unboosted sucker does a shitton. Unless Frogadier has Hidden Power Fire/Fighting or LO/Specs Hydro Pump, it can't OHKO Pawn. Not a check. If not carrying a boosting item or SE coverage, Pawn can setup on it
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Frogadier: 180-213 (72.2 - 85.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Possible damage amounts: (180, 183, 184, 186, 189, 190, 193, 195, 198, 199, 201, 204, 205, 208, 210, 213)

:kadabra: - Cannot switch in. Needs Hidden Power Fighting to OHKO Pawn. A reliable check when its Sash is intact

:pawniard: - Doesn't count

A-rank

:Gabite: - Offensive Gabite is a check, but not a counter. Offensive Gabite outright loses to Pawn if it attempts to switch in.
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Gabite: 124-147 (44.7 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (124, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147)
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gabite: 153-180 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (153, 154, 156, 157, 159, 162, 163, 165, 166, 168, 171, 172, 174, 175, 177, 180)
Defensive Gabite can switch in once or twice, a counter

:misdreavus: - Cannot switch in. On a free switch in, missy does need to win Wisp/Sucker/Sub 50/50s if missy is carrying HP Fighting. If not HP Fighting, Pawn wins. Not a counter, unreliable check which requires 50/50s to win if carrying HP Fighting

:quilladin: - Cannot switch in, does nothing back unless it fits the very rare Drain Punch on its already pushed 4 moveslots. Pawn sets up on it.

A- rank

:duosion: - Standard double dance gets setup on. Pawn can muscle past other sets but cannot set up on them.

:fraxure: - Cannot switch in. Eviolite Frax can revenge Pawn at +2. A check.

:krokorok: - Cannot switch in. Scarf Intimidate Krok outright dies to +3 Sucker after rocks, so Scarf Intimidate is also not a check. Moxie Scarf can eat one +2 Sucker.
+3 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krokorok: 251-296 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (251, 254, 257, 260, 263, 266, 269, 272, 275, 278, 281, 284, 287, 290, 293, 296)
Incredibly enough, the other spdef Krok set also cannot switch in well at all
+1 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Krokorok: 122-144 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (122, 123, 125, 126, 127, 129, 130, 132, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144)
+1 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Krokorok: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (150, 152, 154, 156, 157, 159, 161, 163, 165, 166, 168, 170, 171, 174, 175, 177)
Does about 90% with standard rolls
A shaky check depending on set but cannot switch in

:lampent: - Cannot switch in. Scarf/Band die to Sucker, 229 sub forces 50/50s if Pawn is ada. Overall, not a counter, not a check.

:metang: - Cannot switch in. Not a check either. Pawn can set up an SD on it then OHKO with Knock. Setup bait, not a counter or check
252+ Atk Metang Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 148-176 (64 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (148, 150, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 160, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174, 176)

:roselia: - Unless HP Fighting or Sleep Powder, easy setup for Pawn. Not a check or counter

:staravia: - Unless Revenge, free SD and bop

B+ rank

:combusken: - Can switch in once. However, if it swiches into an attack, it is in range of +2 Sucker next time. One time counter, decent check.

:klang: - Pawn sets up on it

:magmar: - Cannot switch in. +2 Sucker OHKOs non Evio set, evio is bopped after rocks. Shaky check at best, but not really
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 339-399 (125 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (339, 342, 346, 351, 354, 358, 363, 366, 370, 375, 378, 382, 387, 390, 394, 399)
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magmar: 226-267 (83.3 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (226, 229, 231, 234, 237, 240, 241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 255, 258, 261, 264, 267)

:marshtomp: - Full physdef is a one time switch in and counter. Takes the first knock on the switch in p well and forces pawn out. A reasonably good counter

:munchlax: - Pawn sets up on it, not a check or counter.

:rufflet: - Not a switch in, unboosted sucker does 68 min, if scarf is locked into not superpower, pawn sets up on it, not a check or counter
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rufflet: 226-267 (80.4 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (226, 229, 231, 234, 237, 240, 241, 244, 247, 250, 253, 255, 258, 261, 264, 267)

:vullaby: - Free setup

B rank

:croconaw: - A check

:ferroseed: - Pawn set up on this. Not a check or counter

:hippopotas: - Same as marshtomp, reasonable one time switch in counter

:marill: - Not a check or counter

:togetic: - Not a check or counter

:wartortle: - One time switch in but not a check or counter without burn

B- rank

:dusclops: - Nah

:lairon: - Can switch in, pretty decent counter

:murkrow: - Nah

:natu: - Nah, Pawn sets up on common sets

:prinplup: - Nah, pawn can set up on it if no burn

:sliggoo: - Pawn sets up on phys sets, special sets aren't a check either

:tangela: - Pretty solid counter

:vibrava: - Cannot switch in, standard defensive sets can't OHKO Pawn, not really a check or counter

C+ rank

:eelektrik: - Doesn't want to switch in, also lets Pawn setup on it. Neither check nor counter

:frillish: - Not a switch in. Pawn does get crippled by this but pawn can setup on it. Not a counter or check

:lickitung: - Unless your packing like bb or eq, thats free setup

:mienfoo: - Good counter

:pikachu: - Sucker actually OHKOs. Epic

:seadra: - Pretty good check

:weepinbell: - Physical weep is free setup for pawn. Special in sun is a shaky check

C rank

:ivysaur: - Sets up on defensive sets. Offensive sun ivy is a check

:shelgon: - It's free setup

:slowpoke: - Free setup, although scald burn can bail you out from a sweep

:swadloon: - Free setup

C- rank

:chinchou: - Scald burn annoying but free setup

:dragonair: - Special can check Pawn, phys is free setup. You cant setup on dtail sets, but they also cant touch you

:drilbur: - Cant switch in, dies to +2 sucker outright. A check only if at full and Pawns unboosted

:grotle: - It's free setup

:porygon: - Unless HP Fighting, free setup

:riolu: - Cant switch in but a good check

:staryu: - Nah

:tentacool: - Nein

:zweilous: - A check


Overall, from that list, Monferno, Tangela and Mienfoo are the only long term counters. Marshtomp, defensive Gabite, and Hippo act as decent one time switchins. Lairon and Combusken are reasonable one time offensive switch-ins.
Checks to both unboosted and +2 Pawniard consist of Kadabra, Fraxure, and Croconaw.
However, factor in potential hazards, 5 potential teammates working to weaken checks, and the ease in which Pawn can set up on a reasonable chunk of the upper tier meta and has tools to break every type of teamstyle, and you realise just how difficult checking it in the course of a game is and how difficult it is to stop a sweep, unless you're packing its only viable long term counter in Monferno.
When listing Pokemon as checks or counters, you should consider their usage in tournament play too, not just where they are on the VR. From the list of checks and counters, only Monferno, Kadabra, Gabite, Marshtomp, Fraxure, Ivysaur, and Croconaw had more than 5% usage in the ORAS Tour.

Now I'm going to knock out one counterargument I foresee coming from this. The 'Calling Pokemon checks only when they can tank a +2 Sucker doesn't count'
My counterargument to this is what Pokemon in this tier stops Pawniard from clicking SD at an available opportunity to do so? The 83% usage Monferno. In games where you have built a team without Monferno (impossible imo), being swept by SD + Sucker, Knock, and Iron Head is a very real possibility. To prove this, I compiled a list of every game in the ORAS Tour where Pawn faced a team without Monf (rare considering Monfs usage). It highlights my point that Monferno and its incredibly high usage is the only thing keeping Pawn in the tier, and is the main reason why Pawn doesn't seem broken. If 5/6th of every ORAS team and replays have your only good long term viable counter, of course you won't feel as busted.

Pawn replays vs a team without Monferno
Number of games: 14
Times the Pawn team won: 10
Times the Pawn team lost: 4
Winrate = 71.43%

That's quite the winrate, a lot higher than 50%. It's fairly clear that Pawniard does limit teambuilding skill quite heavily and forces the usage of a Pokenon that is very good in the meta, but shouldn't be 83%, even more. In addition, some of the replays below also show that some Pawn vs no Monf games are quite brainless in favour of the Pawn user. A lot of these games showcase the ease in which someone can aim for and execute a Pawniard sweep against teams without Monferno, usually only needing a bit of chip and one setup opportunity before it's gg. This limits both battling and teambuilding skill - teambuilding because you're forced to use Monferno on every team, and battling because it heavily limits what you can do in-game when faced against Pawn without a Monf.



The relationship between Monf and Pawn

As partners, the ease in which both Pokemon are able to support each other and get rid of shared counterplay or lure/weaken counterplay for the other is insane. Both Pokemon are 'checked' by bulky ground types, which means they support each other fantastically in that regard. Bulky or even frail ghost type Monferno checks and counters like lamp and fril are forced out and potentially even trapped by Pawn. Bulkier birds like star and vull can beat Monf but are free setup for Pawn; the list goes on. Pawn has overloaded utility for ORAS. Its highly spammable 97.5 BP plus STAB Knock Off is an incredible move, letting it weaken and knock Evio off walls for itself or others to exploit later in the game. Sucker Punch nullifies offensive counterplay, especially at +2. Attempting to check and deal with both Pokemon defensively is almost impossible from a building perspective and heavily restricts teambuilding skill. To emphasise this, I looked at the usage stats for 2 Mon cores in the ORAS Tour.

+ ---- + ------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 2 | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Pawniard / Monferno | 54 | 45.00% | 53.70% |
| 2 | Clefairy / Monferno | 35 | 29.17% | 57.14% |
| 3 | Monferno / Frogadier | 34 | 28.33% | 55.88% |
| 4 | Pawniard / Frogadier | 32 | 26.67% | 59.38% |
| 5 | Pawniard / Clefairy | 30 | 25.00% | 53.33% |
| 6 | Clefairy / Frogadier | 28 | 23.33% | 50.00% |
| 7 | Pawniard / Quilladin | 26 | 21.67% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Staravia / Monferno | 25 | 20.83% | 48.00% |
| 8 | Quilladin / Monferno | 25 | 20.83% | 44.00% |
| 10 | Lampent / Monferno | 24 | 20.00% | 54.17% |
| 10 | Quilladin / Frogadier | 24 | 20.00% | 50.00% |
| 12 | Staravia / Frogadier | 23 | 19.17% | 47.83% |


Almost every 1 in 2 teams is using both Pawn and Monf. That is a ridiculous level of centralisation around 2 Pokemon. Both Pokemon combine together to heavily reduce teambuilding skill, since they're very difficult to check both individually and even moreso together as a core. Therefore, most teams feel forced to utilise at least one, if not both, and essentially attempt to 'win first'. In addition, a lot of defensive Pokemon are also used as checks to other Pokemon not named MonfPawn, so a team of 6 including that core is incredibly difficult to deal with in builder and in game. Ground types are the MonfPawn switch-in and check, but they also serve as the Volt immunity, which means they can be bopped or weakened by Electabuzz. Frillish checks ground types, some other physical and special mons depending on set etc. which makes it easy to build a team around this core which exploits them, but far more difficult to check them.

The Question

This is a point which confuses me a lot. Everyone I have personally talked to about ORAS agree that, if Monferno were to get banned, Pawn would have to follow. My question to that opinion would be 'If the existence of just Monferno (one Pokemon) in this tier is enough to dictate whether a Pokemon is banworthy or not, how can you justify keeping it?'
If Monferno is the only thing in this tier that keeps Pawniard from not being broken 'in your eyes', surely a metagame where you're forced to run that one counter to an overloaded Pokemon is an unhealthy and overly centralising one. This reminds me of Gen 7 San Bervine, but even worse since Pawniard deals with offensive counterplay much better than Servine does.

Tiering Policy

Dumped this last because only tiering policy-based arguments are typically boring and revolve around people twisting jargon to make it fit their argument, as opposed to meta arguments which intertwine the overall aim of TP in promoting skill within the context of ORAS NFE.

Gonna focus on broken and unhealthy since uncompetitive doesnt apply

Broken

"They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage."

I think the analysis of Pawn in games without Monferno is a good indicator of this point. Any Pawn against a team without Monferno is at a massive advatage compared to teams which utilise the MonfPawn core. 55% individual usage isn't at the dictate usage stage yet, but it's pretty close.

"These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere."

Unfortunately, Pawn doesn't fit this point. I personally hate this point in TP; it sounds like quickban justification to me over suspect justification but oh well.

Unhealthy

I believe that Monferno and Pawniard both individually and in conjuction create an ORAS metagame that is incredibly centralised around these two Pokemon and is moreso focussed on abusing and supporting these two Pokemon the best instead of promoting and allowing different teamstyles, Pokemon, and builds to flourish. I think Pawn is the bigger issue. When Monferno is removed from the equation, Pawniard is far far harder to check and deal with, whereas the removal of Pawniard would not affect Monferno as much. In fact, the removal of one of Monferno's best support mons, best knock off user, and one of the better wallbreakers and cleaners in the tier may allow teambuilding to have more breathing room and check exisiting threats better while still allowing creativity to flourish.

That's just my opinion. ORAS council members, feel free to attack me on my opinion or post your own. Same with community members. I know there's a few people who want Monferno suspected or neither, so post if you have an opinion on ORAS NFE please.
 

dom

Banned deucer.
aite i dont wanna sleep rn so here's a non essay about pawn + ferno in oras

i think ferno is the major problem in the metagame personally. three major attributes of monferno make it banworthy in my mind:
1: over versatility - this thing has way too many options. let me name some: sd 3 attacks, sd blitz | fp, cc slackoff, sd blitz | fp mach slackoff, sd + shadow claw (screws over frillish and lamp), scarf, np three attacks, np vaccum, np focus blast, np grass knot, np hp ice/ghost/whatever taunt, uturn + attacks, toxic, rocks... like this is insane. none of these are bad whatsoever and it's impossible to know for sure what ferno it is at preview unless you somehow know the team.
2: lack of counterplay (and synergy w pawn) - this is honestly what makes me want to ban it. this tier is not prepared for monferno, period. even ignoring the niche/uncommon sets above like shadow claw or grass knot or whatever the hell i really think ferno lacks counterplay. i specifically think nasty plot is the biggest issue - especially w focus blast. water types and ground types FOLD to nasty plot + blast, as marshtomp, gabite, wartortle and prinplup WILL lose to this set if you play your cards right. really only cm + twave clefairy and lampent handles this set well, and you have to predict nasty plot anyways. you can also just knock this thing off or weaken it with stuff like krokorok, vullaby, frogadier, etc.
a huge part of the thing with monfernos counterplay as well is that these mons do not last long. waters and grounds are amazing at getting weakened by random stuff (like pawniard lol) early game while they try to set up their rocks. otherwise you won't be setting your rocks up if you wanna keep these mons in pristine condition in the late game, and thus will have harder time breaking your opponents moferno team.. pawn and ferno can easily work together to pretty much have a collective counterplay of other monfernos. i don't think every team should need to have like half the team trying to dance around not losing to monferno because like no mon counters every set. besides lampent i guess (loses to shadow claw and some np sets) which gets chipped as fuck by rocks, spikes, and tspikes (removal in this tier is subpar at best) and also pursuit trapped by krokorok and other mons. a few doubles can easily put lamp and the other persons team in a bad position considering the fact you pretty much need to automatically go lamp in a lot of scnerios vs ferno. like honestly theres pretty much next to no mons that you can put on your team and be like yeah i don't need to worry about ferno any more. frillish yes but that thing hates toxic vs mons like gabite, and also hazards. you will need to keep it v healthy for ferno, but frillish only exists because of ferno anyways. lampent is good early game at checking ferno but hates uturn and hates hazards even more. i feel like builders in this meta need to try to dedicate half their team to like i said dance around this np set and this sd set, and at the end of the day those types of teams can easily lose to ferno.
3: over-splashability - in my eyes on most teams there's really not a reason not to run a ferno on pretty much every team. it's a good pawn hard check, good wincon, good balance breaker, and just generally a mon a lot of teams don't have a lot of counterplay for. tbh i do think pawn is the main reason, but either way 80+% in the oras tour is insane.. and not healthy at all. i'd say this thing centralizes the tier but honestly this tier like i said earlier doesn't even have sufficient enough counterplay to begin with. literally never have i even thought "dang i wish i had another mon over ferno here" but i've thought like pretty much every time i use it "yo ferno is good in this matchup".

i think pawn is the main reason for #3 and i'm v shaky about a pawn suspect without ferno. it is true pawn would probably be broken w out ferno but i think it's weird we would do a suspect on pawn considering the mon that hard checks it has more than 80% usage. i think the council is already split enough on pawnferno as it is, but trying to ban pawn w ferno in the tier is a bit odd to me...

hope this post wasn't incoherent and i hope 85percent is happy i'm not letting the metagame rot

tldr ferno is too versatile, counterplay sucks ass in this tier to it, and there's like no reason to put it on nearly every team (evidenced by 80+% usage rate in the post-machoke ban tour). ban this thing and i dont really like a pawn suspect first.

oops this was an essay i wrote more than i meant to. also here's a replay of ferno being dumb: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-995127782-g1gsbdm1azpapcctswvh9fctept6hcypw
 
Last edited:

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Pawniard has been banned from ORAS NFE

With a 7/9 council + rotating council vote, Pawniard has been banned from ORAS NFE. Even with Monferno around, Pawniard's great offensive typing, access to the strongest Knock Off in the tier, Swords Dance, Sucker Punch etc proved too much for the limited offensive and defensive counterplay in the tier. For a more detailed account of Pawniard in ORAS NFE, feel free to read any of the reasonings provided below or some of the posts above.

For a breakdown on votes, see below. Each council member also had to post reasoning along with their vote, which you can read by clicking on the vote.

Crystalites: Ban
quag: Ban
Simbo: Ban
85percent: Ban
Monsareeasy: Ban

4 rotational council members were also asked to vote on Pawniard. The rotating council for this suspect were chosen by taking the top 4 players in the Post Machoke ORAS Bo3 Tour. Future rotational council members will similarly be judged and asked to vote on any future suspects based on tour success and general involvement in the ORAS NFE metagame. Rotational council members did not have to give reasoning unless they wished to do so.

Thunder~BALLZ: Ban
OminousDraco: Do Not Ban
raf: Do Not Ban
Indol: Ban

Current plan for the ORAS Council post-Pawniard is to gauge how this meta shapes up in NFE Classic and to keep a close eye on Monferno in future competitive ORAS tours and teamtours.
 
BW Post thing hazards are the whole meta


Gabite -> A+ On paper this mon is insane able to beat some of the top threats like magmar and Monferno while being good offensively and it has options like stealth rocks and hone claws. The problem is in this meta hazards are too good which hurt its defensive capability. Magmar and monferno also still does a decent amount to it. Its not insanely hard to wall either.

Magmar -> S???????? its strong LOL

Duosion -> S In the long hazard infested games its really hard to get a Pokemon better than this. Great stats and magic guard. It also has the most set up potential.

Roselia -> A+/S THE WHOLE META IS HAZARDS

Scraggy -> A- this thing is still really capable to set up and sweep. Moves like taunt also stop phazing and toxic.

Natu -> A/A+ The whole meta is based around hazards.....

Frillish -> A-/A its defensive capability while being able to spin block can not be overstated .

Axew -> UR ye no... If I see someone use it and it gets a kill maybe it should stay but why use this when good mons like scraggy and gabite exist.
 
I've been building a fair amount of ORAS NFE over the past week and played around 10-15 games and during that time. Here are my personal rankings for Pokemon (ordered by number) that should be in the S to A- ranks and some thoughts on them post-Pawniard meta:

S Rank
1) :Monferno: Monferno continues to be one of the most reliable Pokemon in the tier. It still has the same insane versatility and unpredictability from before. The variety of sets it is able to run means it fits onto many teams easily and I expect it to still be the most used Pokemon, albeit a lower usage percentage. However, as a Monf lover and abuser since the Machoke meta, I believe that it is definitely weaker than before. The loss of Pawniard means the only viable offensive Knock Off user is Krokorok, which suffers from the same water type weakness and unlike Pawniard cannot reliably break through Pokemon like Slowpoke and Frillish. Monferno's PhysDef set has also been hit hard as there is no need for reliable Pawniard counter anymore. With all that being said, it cannot be understated the effect Monferno has on the metagame, and whilst it's easier to teambuild against it, it is definitely still the biggest threat in the tier and still under my radar for a potential future suspect.

2) :Clefairy: As expected, Clefairy gets much better with the removal of its most common counter. The Calm Mind set is much easier to pull off now and is pretty reliable wincon. Clefairy has access to amazing utility in the form of Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock and Knock Off. T-Wave being broken in ORAS and Knock Off users are relatively scarce in this meta, boost its stock further. Offensive sets play off the fact that Clefairy is expected to be a defensive wall and lure in some of its common switchins. However, Clefairy is generally passive; as long as teams have a Taunt user, Phazer or Bulky Steel- or Poison-type, switching into and dealing with Clefairy should be manageable. Offensive sets are somewhat unreliable because of Clefairy's poor Speed and mediocre Special Attack stat, and are relatively easy to revenge kill. Overall, Clefairy has gotten better and the gap between it and Monferno has definitely gotten closer.

A+ Rank
3) :Duosion: Nomming Duosion to A+ for now. Whilst I personally haven't used Duosion too much in the new meta, I've encountered it multiple times in my games, so I feel like I have enough experience to talk about it. I find it to be the scariest setup sweeper and one of the most difficult Pokemon to deal with. Previously, Pawniard was used on more than half of teams and would use Duosion as setup bait. It's much harder to fit a Dark-type onto the team now since the ones remaining are less splashable. Both Calm Mind and Double Dance seem to both be very effective options, with the former having solid coverage and the latter aiming to stop any attempt of offensive counterplay. It still is susceptible to Taunt users and Phazers like all bulk setup mons, but overall, I think Duosion does make teambuilding somewhat straining. I think I need more games before I make a full judgement on whether it’s too problematic for the meta.

4) :Frogadier: Not much to say for Frogadier since not much has really changed. It gets slightly better now that it doesn’t have to worry about Pawniard revenge killing it and its a Pseudo Dark-type so it can wall the standard Double Dance Duosion set.

5) :Electabuzz: Electabuzz remains relatively the same, still being defining factor of VoltTurn teams. The loss of Pawniard means that Focus Blast isn't really needed besides hitting Klang and possibly Munchlax, allowing it to either run Hidden Power Ice or Grass to hit Gabite or Marshtomp respectively.

6) :Kadabra: I don’t think Kadabra needs to run HP Fight anymore which is great since it can now run Shadow Ball to hit Metang and Dark-types with Dazzling Gleam for super effective damage, whilst still having space for some sort of utility which is great. Sash Kadabra is still the same reliable Monferno revenge killer from before as well as being a solid cleaner in general. Despite Pawniard gone, I’ve only found it marginally harder to revenge kill Kadabra, and Kadabra never really had an issue of OHKOing Pawniard anyways. It also has competition from Duosion as a Psychic-type now which is why I think it’s the lowest of the A ranks.


A Rank
7) :Gabite: Gabite continues to be both an amazing offensive and defensive threat. The offensive sets are some of the most reliable checks to Monferno, since it can outspeed and revenge kill Monferno. It has great STAB moves which hit hard and gets access to coverage moves to deal with common switchins such as Clefairy, which is one of its most commonly used switchins. Defensive Gabite is a very good Rocker as well as having access to Toxic and Roar, both of which are super useful for either wearing down bulky walls or stopping the many setup sweepers in the tier. It is also a very reliable switchin for any Physical Monferno set. Defensive Gabite also no longer has to check both Pawniard and Monferno, so it’s able to have an easier time overall, rather than being overwhelmed in the previous meta.

8) :Misdreavus: Similar to Kadabra, Misdreavus no longer needs to run HP Fight now. Dazzling Gleam lets it hit Vullaby much harder. Missy is a really good Nasty Plot sweeper atm, and Pawn’s removal means one less mon which could revenge kill it. It could probably be used a more defensive mon instead which would have been punished by Pawniard in the past, although I haven’t seen it be used in this way yet. I honestly expected Pawn going to make this way better and potentially push it up to the A+ rank, but I guess the combination of Substitute and HP Fight in the past, Missy always had ways to outplay Pawniard.

9) :Metang: Nomming Metang to A. Metang now holds the spot for the best Steel-type in the tier with the departure of Pawniard. It essential is able to switch into what Pawniard would switch into but better since its bulkier. It is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock setters and it has a very wide movepool allowing it to threaten most hazard removal users. Its typing is super valuable in a meta, where Toxic is being run on many defensive Pokemon as well as being the easiest Clefairy check to fit onto teams. It's also the best birds switchin that we have. I think despite Monferno being the best Pokemon in the tier still, Pawniard going was big enough to justify a rise on the VR, since it can function as a tank far more reliably now.


10) :Lampent: Nomming Lampent to A. Whilst, I've never been a very big Lampent fan for multiple reasons, which is why this might be quite low im not too sure, I think it does get significantly better with Pawniard gone. Lampent is the most reliable offensive counter to Monferno, whilst also not having too big of a drawback since it's also a solid wallbreaker/revenge killer. It can't be punished by Pawn trying to Sucker Punch it or Pursuit trap it any more. Weakness to Stealth Rock isn’t as bad now hazard removal is better. Still quite difficult to get in though.

11) :Quilladin: Although, I’m no longer on the Quilladin hype train as before, I think its power level has remained relatively the same since the Pawn ban. It can fit Taunt/Roar into its movepool shutting down Clefairy and Duosion from setting up, which are two of the biggest threats. It’s still a super solid SpDef Wall with access to Spikes, whilst also not completely rolling over to physical attackers (*cough* Roselia) so that hasn’t really changed. However, its harder to keep hazards up in general with Pawniard gone which hurts it as a Spiker.

A- Rank

12) :Vullaby: Nomming Vullaby to A-. Vullaby is super good right now. It’s a reliable special wall with access to recovery in Roost, Defog, which is no longer punished by Pawniard, and U-turn, which allows it to keep up momentum despite being a rather passive Pokemon. The main selling point is its access to Knock Off, which is why I value it over Staravia considering how few viable Pokemon actually get this move now. Vullaby makes for a great support Pokemon although this might just be my flavour of the month and I’m super overhyping it. I still think it deserves a rise though.

13) :Staravia: Staravia might be above Vullaby in reality but I’ll assume you’ve read the Vull reasoning. PhysDef Staravia remains a very reliable counter to the physical Monferno sets. Pawniard leaving helps it a lot since since it can longer be punished because of its own ability, along with not being punished because of Defog. Its Scarf set is still good as a revenge killer to many of the common frail offensive threats. Defensive sets are still pretty easy to switch in and lose momentum without U-Turn. Offensive sets are hard to get in.

14) :Roselia: Roselia is both hurt and enjoys Pawniard’s ban. On the one hand, the RosePawn core is gone and it's much harder to keep hazards up without the opponent being punished. On the other hand, Pawniard was one of Roselia’s most common switchins and could punish it everytime it switched in. Rose is in a weird spot, since its utility moves are undoubtedly good, but now the other Steel-types just switch in on it instead.

15) :Krokorok: Haven’t tried Krokorok since Pawn’s removal but its Scarf set is probably still very good since it can revenge kill the fast special attackers in the tier. A nice buff to it is that with Pawniard gone, it has less competition as a Dark-type, but its poor defensive typing makes it somewhat difficult to fit onto teams.Having Knock Off is great though and I can see SpDef sets possibly coming back as a decent check to Psychic Types and Electabuzz.

16) :Fraxure: Again haven’t had time to build around this Fraxure. I think Pawniard going will hurt it slightly as it needs to rely on a weaker Steel-type to deal with Clefairy/hitting Iron Tail. It’s always going to be the threatening DD sweeper/cleaner it has been in every gen and a rather consistent one at that.

17) :Klang: Nomming Klang to A-. As I mentioned with Metang, Steel-types are super valuable because of their ability to switch into Clefairy and reliable deal with it as well as being unaffected by Toxic. What Klang has over Metang, is that its a super reliable SpDef Wall. checking Clefairy, Frogadier and Kadabra with ease and probably start setting up on them., which doubles as a decent late game wincon. Klang is also harder to break through with Pawn gone since it could easily switch into Gear Grind and proceed to click Knock Off. Similar to Metang, Monferno is going to be very common still making it difficult to pull off any setup sweeps without proper team support but Klang has a more defined role now.

Might do a follow up post on mons lower rank than this at a later stage.
 
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SBPC

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BW NFE Council has unanimously voted to Quickban Magmar fron BW NFE.

Magmar was an oppressive threat in the tier due to its incredible offensive power and having very few consistent switchins, and was an overcentralizing and unhealthy metagame element because of this, straining teambuilding to constantly carry multiple pokemon dedicated to stopping it, that of which could still be broke through in long games through hazards and weather chip, combined with the raw damage output of magmar.
 
Approved by Crystalites
Idea stolen from ZU Elite 4 Challenge, credits
here and here

ORAS NFE Elite 4 Challenge (Winner Ho3nConfirm3d)

Welcome to the ORAS NFE Elite 4 Challenge. Similar to the Elite 4 challenges this idea was stolen from in other tiers, you can challenge the ORAS NFE Elite 4. If someone manages to defeat all four members in a row without losing, that player will be crowned Champion. However, there is a catch similar to that of the main series games: Once a Champion is crowned, players will then have to defeat all Elite 4 members and beat the Champion to take their place. Read the rules below carefully, since this fun challenge will not completely function in the way other similar challenges did. There is one big difference.

On top of becoming Champion and being recorded in the Hall of Fame, the overall Champion will receive their own unique Discord tag titled 'ORAS Champion' in the NFE Discord (you can choose the colour), a free slot in the ORAS NFE Rotational Council for the next suspect we do, if and when that may occur, and my undying respect.

Rules:

The challenger must beat all Elite 4 members to be crowned as champion.

Challengers can challenge the Elite 4 in any order, but can only challenge the same Elite 4 member once a day.

This means that if you lose to a particular Elite 4 member, you have to wait until the next day (usually 24 hours) to challenge them again.

Also, you must go undefeated against all Elite 4 members in order to challenge the Champion. A loss means restarting the whole challenge.

This whole challenge will run for two weeks, from the 3rd February to the 16th of February. If there is no overall Champion within the two week period, then the Elite 4 Members will be matched up against each other in a quick two week BO3 single elimination tour. The winner of that shall receive a unique role in the NFE Discord which they can name and colour (has to start with ORAS though).
Unlike standard Elite 4 Challenges, this one has a pre-set running time of 2 weeks. Therefore, there are two 'win conditions' to be crowned overall Champion at the end of the two week period.

1) If you become Champion and defend your position as Champion for one week, the challenge will end and you are the overall Champion
2) If there is more than one champion, but no champions were able to defend their position for a week, then every person crowned Champion will be seeded into a small ORAS Bo3 tournament against other champions and the winner of that short tournament will be crowned overall Champion. Pairings will be made based on W-L difference during the run to Champion, with byes being given to the best record/s if neccessary.

Since this entire Elite 4 challenging process will last for two weeks, if there is a backlog of Champion challenges, they will take place after the deadline i.e no more challenges against the Elite 4 can be made, but if you've qualified to fight the Champion, that can happen after the deadline. I'll keep on top of this to make sure it runs smoothly if this scenario happens.
All Elite 4 battles must be BO1. Champion fights must be BO3.

All battles must be ORAS NFE (played in gen6ru). Check the resources and banlist to make sure you bring legal teams. Bringing an illegal team counts as an instant loss.
Resources and banlist can be found here.
Role compendium can be found here.
The winner of any battle must post the replay.

Tips:
  • Please do not spam the Elite 4 with battle requests.
  • Be understanding of the Elite 4's availability.
  • If you become Champion, do not needlessly john. I will be keeping an eye on this.
  • Most importantly, have fun!
You may challenge any Elite 4 member you see online on Pokemon Showdown! or contact them via Smogon or Discord.
When challenging a member, be sure to state that you are challenging as part of the ORAS NFE Elite 4 Challenge.

Without further ado, here are the Elite 4 Members

Current E4 Members

Quagg 0-0

skier.png

NFE Mod. Big Goat.

None yet


SBPC 6-5
jessiejames-gen1.png

NFE Mod and Old Gens Head. SBPC has a better teamtour record than viper, which means absolutely nothing, but it's kinda cool I guess. He's a good guy.



Monsareeasy (Arctic) 4-10
lillie-z.png

The father of NFE Oldgens and one of the biggest reasons why ORAS NFE exists. Terrible meta takes but is a good player and builder.



Simbo 1-0
winona.png

eh


Retired E4 Members

Crystalites 8-13

acerola.png

NFE TL, 4-1 ORAS slot in NFEPL 3, won Ghosting Tour, good builder, good player, all around goat. Big fan.



85percent 12-7
jasmine-gen2.png

The 5-1 ORAS NFEPL 3 slot, the Ghosting Tour winner, good builder and player. Very solid.



If you have any questions or issues, feel free to PM or tag me on Discord Simbo#5254

Deadline for challenging the Elite 4 is Sunday 16th February 11:59 PM EST
 
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Probably just gonna use this post for my wins / losses and I'll update this when games have happened. (All times are in GMT)

Wins (8)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1057295518 vs Ho3nConfirm3d 03/02/20 18:02
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1057398525 vs TBZ 03/02/20 21:27
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058255905 vs Indol 05/02/20 14:16
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058365367 vs King Leo V 05/02/20 18:00
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058980488 vs King Leo V 06/02/20 19:47
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059967360 vs King Leo V 08/02/20 16:50
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060039676 vs asamiii 08/02/20 19:31
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060580985 vs Marjane 09/02/20 20:54

Losses (13)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1057333269-0xirggf771ynrgim8l6qmbtnehclmfepw vs King Leo V 03/02/20 19:16
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1057391117 vs CrazyStevy 03/02/20 21:11
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058250931 vs Anime Sans 05/02/20 14:03
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058253617 vs Ho3nConfirm3d 05/02/20 14:10
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058347919 vs Marjane 05/02/20 17:27
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058889456 vs Anime Sans 06/02/20 17:06
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059469187 vs Ho3nConfirm3d 07/02/20 17:39
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059560927-jv2pa1nbgc04en7xtmhcuq8rv95bkvfpw vs King Leo V 07/02/20 20:31
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060026267 vs Ho3nConfirm3d 08/02/20 19:01
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060041747 vs Anime Sans 08/02/20 19:36
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060567560 vs King Leo V 09/02/20 20:25
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060573758 vs Ho3nConfirm3d 09/02/20 20:39
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1061026754 vs King Leo V 10/02/20 18:00
 
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Just gonna do it like Crystal (times in GMT):

Wins:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1057338051 - King Leo V, 03.02.2020 - 19:30
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1057350671 - Indol, 03.02.2020 - 20:00
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1057904001 - CrazyStevy, 04.02.2020 - 20:30
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058421101-ynsqe7qhnmcj52tqi8tdahyzy50w4lepw - Ho3nConfirm3d, 05.02.2020 - 19:50
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058470176 - Marjane, 05.02.2020 - 21:30
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058827616 - Anime Sans, 06.02.2020 - 15:10
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059563010 - Ho3nConfirm3d, 07.02.2020 - 20:35
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059570931 - King Leo V, 07.02.2020 - 21:00
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060022457 - Anime Sans, 08.02.2020 - 19:00
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060028989 - King Leo V, 08.02.2020 - 19:20
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060570959 - Ho3nConfirm3d, 09.02.2020 - 20:30
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1061055063 - King Leo V, 10.02.2020 - 19:00

Losses:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060038873 - Ho3nConfirm3d, 08.02.2020 - 19:30
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060046722 - Asamiii, 08.02.2020 - 19:50
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060533472 - King Leo V, 09.02.2020 - 19:20
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060638922 - Anime Sans, 09.02.2020 - 23:00
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060646908-zdm6syfe7n28qe60tc64zng1iepzt4qpw - ggopw, 09.02.2020 - 23:30
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060908886 - Ho3nConfirm3d, 10.02.2020 - 14:00
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060927790 - raf, 10.02.2020 - 14:50
 
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This is for SBPC, time is the superior GMT

Wins:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059013581 - CrazyStevy, 06.02.20, 21:09
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059735132 - Pazzaa, 08.02.20, 03:26
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060107026 - Ho3nConfirm3d, 08.02.20, 22:06
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060194525 - asamiii, 09.02.20, 01:35
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060260169 - King Leo V, 09.02.20, 04:45
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060642121 - King Leo V, 09.02.20, 23:21

Losses:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1058306933 - Anime Sans, 05.02.20, 16:14
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059363613 - Ho3nConfirm3d, 07.02.20, 14:14
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1059376638 - Anime Sans, 07.02.20, 14:45
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060646452 - Anime Sans, 09.02.20, 23:49
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6ru-1060615562 - Ho3nConfirm3d, 09.02.20, Time Unknown
 
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Quick two updates to the E4 challenge.
Firstly, from tommorrow til the end of the challenge, Quagg and I will be replacing crystalites and 85percent as E4 members due to burnout reasons. From tomorrow onwards, the E4 players will be quag, SBPC, Arctic and myself.

Secondly, I've made an alteration to the second win condition, in order to make it fairer for everyone who reaches Champion during the challenge.
The new win condition number 2 is: 'If there is more than one champion, but no champions were able to defend their position for a week, then every person crowned Champion will be seeded into a small ORAS Bo3 tournament against other champions and the winner of that short tournament will be crowned overall Champion. Pairings will be made based on W-L difference during the run to Champion, with byes being given to the best record/s if neccessary.
In layman's terms, if Sans defends her position as Champion from now til the end of the challenge, she wins. If Ho3n beats her, and no one else becomes champion, both Sans and Ho3n would have one final bo3 to crown the overall winner.
If there are 3 players who held Champion by the end of the challenge: Person with best W-L difference gets a bye, 2 faces 3, winner faces 1, winner of that wins overall.
If 4, simple 2 round elimination tournament. If there are more than 4, I'll figure out a clean method of doing it if the situation arises.

Feel free to tag me on Discord if you have any questions or concerns, apologies for the mid-challenge changes.
 
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