Resource ZU Old Gens Hub

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UU Old Gens Hub

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Welcome to the ZeroUsed Old Gens Hub. This thread contains resources for the ZeroUsed tiers of older generations - Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire (ORAS) ZU, Black and White (BW) ZU, Diamond/Pearl/Platinum (DPP) ZU, and Advance (ADV) ZU (or Generation 3 ZU). This thread will also serve as a place to hold discussion about the older generations of ZU. Each post contains Viability Rankings, sample teams, and a list of mechanics of the generation that is different from the current generation. Feel free to post your thoughts on a particular aspect of a generation, successful cores, underrated Pokemon, teams you want feedback on, and anything else related to old gens ZU. We hope to bring these metagames more exposure.

Huge thank you to Aaronboyer for providing the ORAS and ADV Metagame resources.

Old Gens ZU Project Leader: DurzaOffTopic

ADV ZU
Leader:
Aaronboyer
DurzaOffTopic, Funbot28

DPP ZU
Leader:
DurzaOffTopic
Ezaphs, BloodAce0107, Tack :]

BW ZU
Leader:
DurzaOffTopic
Broken Phobias, Tack :], SBPC, BloodAce0107

ORAS ZU
Leader:
5gen
DurzaOffTopic, Aaronboyer
 
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Welcome to ORAS ZU and Viability Rankings for our tier. The following Pokemon are ranked based on their positive and/or negative traits, including their splashability, effect on the metagame, and reliability, as well as numerous other factors. All Pokemon from ranks S to A- are ranked in order of viability, while the rest are alphabetical. If you'd like to see a Pokemon change rank, please leave a constructive post in the thread detailing the rank you'd like to see the Pokemon moved to, and provide evidence to support your reasoning. Remember that the Viability Rankings will fluctuate to accurately reflect the state of the ORAS metagame. Please do not post to move a Pokemon up or down within its own current rank. Each Pokemon has their own mini analysis akin to the SmogDex. Just click on the name of the Pokemon to find its recommended set.
S Rank - Includes Pokemon that fair excellently in ORAS ZU. If any Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, they are generally eclipsed by the Pokemon's merits.

S

A Rank - Includes Pokemon that perform amazingly in ORAS ZU, but have a few flaws that hold them back from being S rank material.

A+
Klang

A
Lairon

A-
Glalie
Gogoat
Magmar

B Rank - Includes Pokemon that perform exceptionally well in ORAS ZU, and that, while they may have noticeable flaws that hold them back, they are mostly mitigated by their merits.

B+
Luxray

B
Fearow
Swalot

B-
Dustox
Gastly

C Rank - Includes Pokemon that are generally mediocre in ORAS ZU. While they do have a few traits to warrant them on teams, they have multiple flaws that greatly hinder from being used over higher ranked Pokemon.

C+
Ditto
Emolga
Hypno
Staryu

C

C-

D Rank - Includes Pokemon that are sub-par in the ORAS ZU metagame. Pokemon that are in this rank have numerous flaws that prevent them from being more than simply niche choices for teams.

D
Natu
Onix
Phione

E Rank - Includes Pokemon that are outright unviable in ORAS ZU. These Pokemon may have one notable niche, but have way too many flaws to warrant use on any serious team.

E
Ariados​
Bastiodon​
Beautifly​
Carnivine​
Castform​
Corsola​
Dedenne​
Delcatty​
Delibird​
Dewgong​
Farfetch'd​
Furret​
Illumise​
Ledian​
Luvdisc​
Minun​
Mothim​
Pachirisu​
Paras​
Plusle​
Spinda​
Sudowoodo​
Sunflora​
Unown​
Vespiquen​
Watchog​
Wobbuffet​
Wormadam​

Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Taunt

Electabuzz @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic

Meganium @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis
- Petal Blizzard

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
- Toxic
- Psywave

Vibrava @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Earthquake
- U-turn

Fearow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Drill Peck
- Drill Run
- U-turn
Here is a fairly straigtforward team centered around SD Meganium with offensive support from Taunt+Knock Off Simipour and Electabuzz. Simipour and Electabuzz take care of Fire- and Flying-types and also help whittle down Pokemon such as Bronzor, Gourgeist-L, and Lairon for Meganium. Next, mixed defensive Bronzor and Vibrava make the entry hazards core and serve as the backbone for the team. Lastly, Choice Scarf Fearow rounds out the team with some revenge killing.

The team heavily relies on positioning in order to beat some bulkier Pokemon such as Bronzor, Dusclops, and Wigglytuff. Toxic spam and pivoting is vital as a result.


Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Synthesis
- Taunt

Whirlipede @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Protect
- Infestation

Krokorok @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Electabuzz @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast

Magmar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic
Entry hazard stack is one of the most simple forms of offense and is fairly consistent in ORAS ZU. Whirlipede and Krokorok provide the entry hazards and do a great job wearing down foes through Knock Off, Taunt and Infestation+Toxic. Simipour gives the team necessary breaking power and can hit Wigglytuff with Gunk Shot. Electabuzz is fantastic offensive support and has Focus Blast to take care of Lairon and Klang. Servine is the team's wincon and helps prevent Defog thanks to Taunt. Lastly, Scarf Magmar is slightly unorthodox and is used here because the team needs the speed and something to pressure Ice-types such as Vanilluxe. Team needs to be played aggressively and thoughtfully as wincons vary each game.


Murkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Thunder Wave

Sawsbuck @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Horn Leech
- Jump Kick
- Megahorn

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Wild Charge
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Whirlipede @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic
- Infestation
- Protect

Krokorok @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
Murkrow is A+ and revisiting ORAS ZU, I wanted to test Murkrow once again considering the tier is somewhat different without Trapinch and Baton Pass. Murkrow really enjoyed the effect Trapinch and Baton Pass had on the metagame as Electabuzz and Steel-types had to play more cautiously and with BP, Murkrow had an easy time coming in. Nowadays Murkrow does not have that, so I opted to run it with entry hazard stack support. Murkrow is pretty straightforward as an offensive Pokemon because it looks to click Brave Bird all the time, Sucker Punches faster threats, and has HP Fighting to catch Lairon. Twave is mostly filler thanks to Prankster. Krokorok and Whirlipede are the entry hazard stack core. Pikachu and NP Simipour greatly appreciate the entry hazard chip and are the team's main breakers. Pikachu excels on entry hazard stack HO because assuming it comes in safely, little can withstand its coverage coupled with Extreme Speed. On the other hand, offensive Pokemon are prone to being worn down which makes it that much easier for NP Simipour to sweep. Lastly, Scarf Sawsbuck for the speed control.


Krokorok @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Seismic Toss
- Will-O-Wisp

Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
- Dazzling Gleam

Duosion @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Signal Beam

Wartortle @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Foresight
- Scald
- Toxic

Jumpluff
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Acrobatics
- Seed Bomb
CB Krok is an absolute menace of a breaker because almost nothing counters it. Ground/Dark STAB is incredible and the offensive support Krok provides is difficult to match. Decided to go a bulkier route and run a defensive backbone of Dusclops/Wiggly/Duosion/Wartortle. They do pretty much everything defensively for the team defensively and Duosion acts as a wincon. Lastly, Jumpluff is added for the speed and for its ability to check opposing Krokorok and is a secondary wincon with SD.


Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off
- Superpower

Pignite @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Toxic

Quilladin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Synthesis
- Roar
- Wood Hammer

Lairon @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake

Meowstic-F @ Life Orb
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Calm Mind

Fearow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Drill Peck
- Drill Run
- U-turn
Perhaps my favourite team of the bunch because of how seamless the offensive Pokemon work together. Mixed Simipour and 3 attacks Toxic Pignite is fairly difficult to cover defensively and coupled with entry hazard stack from Quilladin and Lairon, the offensive core does great in this metagame. Defensive Quilladin gives the team valuable defensive utility checking Pokemon such as Lairon, Klang, Krok, and Gigalith. On the other hand, Lairon provides SR and offensive support and also checks Pokemon such as Vanilluxe, Jumpluff, and Raticate. Meowstic-F provides a Fighting- and Poison-type check as well as being a wincon and Defog deterrent. Lastly, Choice Scarf Fearow rounds out the team.

Electabuzz is a threat so make sure to pressure it accordingly and to preserve Quilladin. CM Meowstic-F is also key against stall and bulkier builds.

Usable Pokemon List
Tour Banlist
Speed Tiers
Role Compendium and Checks Compendium Coming Soon!
 
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Welcome to BW ZU. Gen5 ZU is a very new metagame and lacking resources, so we always welcome help!

Tier List: https://pastebin.com/7mZ4B2cv

S Rank:

Simisear

A Ranks:

A+:


Dragonair
Emolga
Kingler
Marowak
Raticate

A:

Boldore
Fearow
Staryu
Sneasel
Vanilluxe
Vullaby
Wormadam-Trash

A-:

Beedrill
Chimecho
Corsola
Exploud
Illumise
Lampent
Leafeon
Octillery
Raichu

B Ranks:

B+:


Frillish
Gastly
Lickitung
Phione
Sandshrew
Slaking
Togetic

B:

Arbok
Clefairy
Foongus
Kecleon
Lopunny
Mothim
Onix
Prinplup
Shelgon
Trubbish
Whiscash

B-:

Drilbur
Flareon
Glaceon
Granbull
Lunatone
Luxray
Mienfoo
Mightyena
Munchlax
Solrock
Swalot
Pawniard
Whirlipede

C Ranks:

C+:


Beartic
Bellossom
Clamperl
Magmar
Marshtomp
Pignite
Pineco
Purugly
Seadra

C:

Dustox
Sudowoodo
Meganium
Palpitoad
Hypno
Heatmor
Seaking
Omanyte

C-:

Butterfree
Croconaw
Dewott
Dunsparce
Girafarig
Grovyle
Noctowl
Pupitar
Shedinja
Visualized Tier list by Broken Phobias and SBPC:
Arbok
Arbok
Ariados
Ariados
Beartic
Beartic
Beautifly
Beautifly
Beedrill
Beedrill
Bellossom
Bellossom
Female Bibarel
Bibarel
Butterfree
Butterfree
Carnivine
Carnivine
Castform
Castform
Chatot
Chatot
Cherrim
Cherrim
Chimecho
Chimecho
Corsola
Corsola
Delcatty
Delcatty
Delibird
Delibird
Dewgong
Dewgong
Dunsparce
Dunsparce
Female Dustox
Dustox
Emolga
Emolga
Exploud
Exploud
Farfetch'd'd
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Fearow
Flareon
Flareon
Furret
Furret
Girafarig
Girafarig
Glaceon
Glaceon
Granbull
Granbull
Heatmor
Heatmor
Female Hypno
Hypno
Illumise
Illumise
Kecleon
Kecleon
Kingler
Kingler
Female Kricketune
Kricketune
Leafeon
Leafeon
Leavanny
Leavanny
Ledian
Ledian
Lopunny
Lopunny
Female Lumineon
Lumineon
Lunatone
Lunatone
Luvdisc
Luvdisc
Female Luxray
Luxray
Magcargo
Magcargo
Marowak
Marowak
Masquerain
Masquerain
Female Meganium
Meganium
Mightyena
Mightyena
Minun
Minun
Mothim
Mothim
Noctowl
Noctowl
Female Octillery
Octillery
Female Pachirisu
Pachirisu
Parasect
Parasect
Pelipper
Pelipper
Persian
Persian
Phione
Phione
Pidgeot
Pidgeot
Plusle
Plusle
Purugly
Purugly
Raichu
Raichu
Raticate
Raticate
Seaking
Seaking
Seviper
Seviper
Shedinja
Shedinja
Shelgon
Shelgon
Shuckle
Shuckle
Simisear
Simisear
Slaking
Slaking
Solrock
Solrock
Spinda
Spinda
Stantler
Stantler
Female Sudowoodo
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Sunflora
Swalot
Swalot
Tropius
Tropius
Unfezant
Female Unfezant
Unfezant
Unown (Exclamation form)
Unown
Vanilluxe
Vanilluxe
Vespiquen
Vespiquen
Wailord
Wailord
Walrein
Walrein
Watchog
Watchog
Whiscash
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Wigglytuff
Wormadam
Wormadam
Wormadam (Sandy form)
Wormadam-Sandy
Wormadam (Trash form)
Wormadam-Trash
Bayleef
Bayleef
Boldore
Boldore
Charmeleon
Charmeleon
Clefairy
Clefairy
Croconaw
Croconaw
Dewott
Dewott
Dragonair
Dragonair
Eelektrik
Eelektrik
Flaaffy
Flaaffy
Gloom
Gloom
Grotle
Grotle
Grovyle
Grovyle
Herdier
Herdier
Ivysaur
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff
Kakuna
Kakuna
Kirlia
Kirlia
Lampent
Lampent
Lombre
Lombre
Loudred
Loudred
Luxio
Luxio
Magmar
Magmar
Marill
Marill
Marshtomp
Marshtomp
Metapod
Metapod
Nidorina
Nidorina
Nidorino
Nidorino
Female Nuzleaf
Nuzleaf
Palpitoad
Palpitoad
Pidgeotto
Pidgeotto
Pignite
Pignite
Poliwhirl
Poliwhirl
Prinplup
Prinplup
Pupitar
Pupitar
Quilava
Quilava
Seadra
Seadra
Sealeo
Sealeo
Servine
Servine
Skiploom
Skiploom
Staravia
Staravia
Swadloon
Swadloon
Togetic
Togetic
Tranquill
Tranquill
Vanillish
Vanillish
Vibrava
Vibrava
Weepinbell
Weepinbell
Whirlipede
Whirlipede
Sandshrew
Sandshrew
Foongus
Foongus
Gastly
Munchlax
Munchlax
Mienfoo
Mienfoo
Onix
Onix
Pawniard
Pawniard
Staryu
Staryu
Omanyte
Omanyte
Frillish
Frillish
Baltoy
Baltoy
Drilbur
Drilbur
Hippopotas
Hippopotas
Lickitung
Lickitung
Pineco
Pineco
Vullaby


Dark and Ghost are resisted by Steel instead of neutral
Sleep turns reset to 0 upon switching out
Hidden Power has a max base power of 70, and the base power depends on the Pokemon's IVs
Several other moves had different base power, PP, or accuracy
 
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Welcome to DPP ZU! The purpose of this is to have a place to discuss changes to the DPP ZU Viability Rankings listed below, any meta trends you've experienced, Pokemon or cores you've been using, and/or any teams you might wish to share and get feedback on. We've made this because we want to bring more exposure to what we believe is an incredibly fun metagame.

DPP ZU Viability Rankings
Viability Rankings are a method to sort and organize based on how viable, effective and consistent a Pokemon is in the tier.

(Click on sprites for team import)

Pretty straight forward team. Pressure leads/normal checks with Yanma, Raticate breaks/u-turns into the appropriate mon, Diglett traps normal checks and electrics/sets up SR, Lairon checks normals/can potentially sweep with Rock Polish, Politoed stops rain/Kingler, and scarf Fearow revenges/stops sun/absorbs sleep.



A sturdier team than the rest. It revovles around detering hazards with lead Persian, setting your own hazards up with Pineco, and choosing a wincon. Kingler is the main sweeper, and it really appreciates having hazards up to pressure its checks. Kingler also serves as a SSI to physical waters. Pupitar provides the team with an offensive normal/electric stop while also being a potential wincon with DD. Stunky stops ghosts, and can effectively revenge kill with hazards. Skunk also gives Kingler and Pupitar an easier time setting up after it mementos. SpDef Dusclops finishes the team, making a great defensive backbone in combination with Pineco, while also spinblocking.


Another variant of normal spam but this time with a solid defensive core. Persian deters hazards and U-turns out into breakers while also chipping normal stops. Exploud decimates walls including normal stops and allows the other normals to more effectively clean. Scarf Chatot revenges for the team and appreciates the work Exploud puts in. Swalot is thw wincon of the team. Curse, RestTalk, Return lets it setup and win after ghosts and normal checks have been weakened or knocked out. Tangela checks kingler and normal stops while also throwing off strong attacks. Solrock is the teams normal/flying resist and rocker. It can catch mons of gaurd with endure + cutsap Boom/Rocks.
DPP ZU Spreadsheet made with lots of help from Ezaphs. Thank you so much for your hard work! Features a tier list, role compendium, and speed tiers!

No team preview, lead is the first Pokemon in your party/teambuilder
Dark and Ghost are resisted by Steel instead of neutral
Sleep lasts 1-4 turns
Hidden Power has a max base power of 70, and the base power depends on the Pokemon's IVs
Several other moves had different base power, PP, or accuracy (see BW entries)
 
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Welcome to ADV ZU! The purpose of this is to have a place to discuss changes to the ADV ZU Viability Rankings listed below, any meta trends you've experienced, Pokemon or cores you've been using, and/or any teams you might wish to share and get feedback on. We've made this because we want to bring more exposure to what we believe is an incredibly fun metagame. ADV ZU is in no way meant to overshadow the current metagame.

Baton Pass is limited to Dry Pass only in ADV ZU.

ADV ZU Viability Rankings

Viability Rankings are a method to sort and organize based on how viable, effective and consistent a Pokemon is in the tier. S Rank is given to Pokemon who dictate the metagame, are very easy to fit on teams and work on many playstyles to make a team better; D Rank is for Pokemon who barely have a niche in the metagame and should not be used before considering other options first. Each Pokemon has its own mini analysis/sets page, akin to the Smogon Dex; simply click the name of the Pokemon to view it.

S Rank
A Rank
Cubone
Dustox
Elekid
Staryu

B Rank
Lileep
Mankey
Natu

C Rank
Bagon
Grimer
Ledian
Marill
Onix
Pineco

D Rank
Aron
Cacnea
Horsea
Meowth
Spinda
 
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Also ı want so say what makes clef A ranked in Gen 4 ZU.when ı see clef it is used mostly for cm but it wasn t even that great considering it s bulk is mediocre without evio boost takes huge chunk of damage from something like hydro pump. (ı even used rocks and it was underwhelming?)[note that Sorry If I sounded rude.I am not hating clef nor ı want bash this mon hard but from replays and my experience it was mostly mediocre]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4nu-840440715
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4pu-840359157
 
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I know the dpp zu vr isn't the best atm. but I want to know why dustox is C? is it just a mediocre special wall with recovery or something? and what about vespiquen?
Dustox makes use of its good support movepool, useful typing, and reliable recovery to function as a decent special wall. Vespiqueen is actually very bulky and makes as a decent Defend Order + Heal Order setup user that can be very difficult to break through. It requires a large amount of support though.
Also ı want so say what makes clef A ranked in Gen 4 ZU.when ı see clef it is used mostly for cm but it wasn t even that great considering it s bulk is mediocre without evio boost takes huge chunk of damage from something like hydro pump. (ı even used rocks and it was underwhelming?)[note that Sorry If I sounded rude.I am not hating clef nor ı want bash this mon hard but from replays and my experience it was mostly mediocre]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4nu-840440715
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4pu-840359157
Great post! Clefairy could definitely be considered for a drop but its high usage in the games being played and overall ability to dominate stall makes it very useful. I however agree that its bulk is kind of disappointing.

In the future, try to refrain from asking "why did this move up/down" or "why is this pokemon here". This is a discussion thread and posts like this don't add to the discussion. If you disagree about X Pokemon's placement, nominate it to move up/down. This encourages discussion and is overall more beneficial to creating an accurate representation of the metagame!
 
Oras ZU drop : Magmar A- to B / B-


Let's talk about Magma, the mon' that everyone has forgotten since Maganon appeared.
At first sight Magmar seems to have some good points for a ZU mon'. Good offense stats but maybe not enough? , a correct speed for the tier and a movepool whose could be good
-if it did not have as much of water type.


Some explanations :
Currently I found 2 viable sets,


Belly Drum set :
Magmar @ Sitrus Berry / Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fire Punch
- Mach Punch
- Belly Drum
- Thunder Punch


In the first set we try to set up Magmar to give it a good offensive presence and fill its lack of attack.
And here comes this first problem of Magmar in ZU. Its fire type is really annoying (defensively) for a Mon who need to set up ;
-25% on Stealth Rock
Weak to a big part of the meta
In addition to his speed which is not enough for a Sweeper.
It means that you will have to use 1 or 2 mons to cover Magmar and makes it good. (sticky web/sleep power users)

Eviolite set
Magmar @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Psychic

In this second set we use the special attack of Magmar and the Eviolite to make Magmar more resistant.

This set has the advantage of being able to hit most part of the tier, except ; bulky water mon or faster mon' who can kill Magmar.
Like for the first set you will have to use a sticky user to fill the lack of speed of Magmar which can be really annoying du to the reliable number of pokémon whose learn sticky web.
Also I think Heatmor would be better as special attacker, then it also has a big lack of speed.


Finally, Magmar is still a good mon' but lacks speed and attack. (and also charism)

If some parts of my post are not really clear or you want that I explain better some points make it know.
 
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Spr 1y 126.png
click in the image to get the paste for ORAS ZU :]

A good point you brought there. Magmar is quite good, with great special stats and a considerable physical attack that, if running BD, makes it a great sweeper. Its speed is not bad at all reaching the 90ish that many Pokémon would like to have.

But what it makes a Pokémon really good it is not only itself but the metagame. If we take a deeper look in the tier Magmar has a great advantage. Fire type Pokémon are practically absent. Moreover, there are a lot of Pokémon that are weak to any seat of Magmar (like Gourgeist) in the A and S rankings. Just to mention some: it gets a 3HKO but it can do a 2HKO with some good rolls against Buzz, it can deal great damage to Simipour if it is switching in, OHKO to Simisear. For A ranking, it can deal great damage again or completely deal with many of the Pokémon out there. Only some like Gigalith, Heatmor ... can tank some hits but due to the high coverage of Magmar's set (the special one I am focusing on), and regarding some lures, it can claim a kill to any of its counters.

Simisage + Simipour are awesome Pokémon in S tier. No Simisear there makes a great hole that Magmar has tried to occupy although with less speed and less overall functionality.

I think A- is a great position for Magmar due to having a niche set (BD) and a great set like the Evio/LO more BO oriented. This patch up the hole that was left due to Simisear vanishing.

I hope we can discuss it if you really feel it needs a drop :).
 
Been playing DPP ZU a bit more as of late and wanted to do a few things:

1) Nomating Stunky for C+ rank

In a tier where two of the six best mons are ghost types, a solid pursuit trapper is needed. Stunky fills that role with ease thanks to its dark typing and its access to the move. Stunky also offers other niches besides just trapping: it resists both of Gastly's stab and can garuntee the kill, it outspeeds and can taunt both lead Onix and Solrock, it has access to STAB priority in Sucker Punch, and it can absorb the rare Toxic Spike. While its held back by its speed, low attack, and subpar bulk stunky still can play a vital role in helping your team secure the W.

Stunky @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Memento / Explosion

Stunky @ Lum Berry / Shuca Berry / Focus Sash
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly / Hasty Nature
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Memento / Taunt / Explosion / Hidden Power Grass / Toxic / Sludge Bomb

2) Posting a few samples
Not too many ppl play the tier and I'd like to make it a more accessible by posting these. Not Gonna go too far in depth cause these teams are rly simple.

Pretty straight forward team. Pressure leads/normal checks with Yanma, Raticate breaks/u-turns into the appropriate mon, Diglett traps normal checks and electrics/sets up SR, Lairon checks normals/can potentially sweep with Rock Polish, Politoed stops rain/Kingler, and scarf Fearow revenges/stops sun/absorbs sleep.


A sturdier team than the rest. It revovles around detering hazards with lead Persian, setting your own hazards up with Pineco, and choosing a wincon. Kingler is the main sweeper, and it really appreciates having hazards up to pressure its checks. Kingler also serves as a SSI to physical waters. Pupitar provides the team with an offensive normal/electric stop while also being a potential wincon with DD. Stunky stops ghosts, and can effectively revenge kill with hazards. Skunk also gives Kingler and Pupitar an easier time setting up after it mementos. SpDef Dusclops finishes the team, making a great defensive backbone in combination with Pineco, while also spinblocking.


Another variant of normal spam but this time with a solid defensive core. Persian deters hazards and U-turns out into breakers while also chipping normal stops. Exploud decimates walls including normal stops and allows the other normals to more effectively clean. Scarf Chatot revenges for the team and appreciates the work Exploud puts in. Swalot is thw wincon of the team. Curse, RestTalk, Return lets it setup and win after ghosts and normal checks have been weakened or knocked out. Tangela checks kingler and normal stops while also throwing off strong attacks. Solrock is the teams normal/flying resist and rocker. It can catch mons of gaurd with endure + cutsap Boom/Rocks.

Some ez cheese takes the last slot. Just antilead with Persian, U-turn into Diglett, Stunky, or a sweeper and click the appropriate move. Diglett traps as usual and sets up SR. Stunky traps ghosts and mementos for the team. Combusken can blow throw teams at +2 spe with its fully special set. Tangela disrupts balance with its sun set while also outrunning many offensive mons. Kinler Agilitys and kills anything not named Quagsire. Last but not least RP Solrock stops normals, lures Waters for Kingler and sweeps after teams are chipped.
 
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Aaronboyer

I Always Knew You Could Do It!
is a Contributor to Smogon
167464

ADV ZU Tier Shift + VR Changes
The latest ADV ZU shift has occured. Enjoy the follow Viability Ranking changes and please welcome ADV ZU's newest addition, Castform, which has just dropped and will be currently placed at B. A sample set for Castform will hopefully be coming around next week. In the meantime, feel free to discuss the ADV ZU metagame and the addition of Castform.

VR Changes:
Bagon B --> C
Marill B --> C
Magnemite C --> B
Poliwag C --> B
Ledian D --> C
Voltorb D --> C
Castform New --> B

Bagon, while a solid Dragon Dance user, can be hard to set up with due to its pitiful bulk and the prevalence of Ice-type coverage from Pokemon such as Delibird, Delcatty, and Staryu. Marill hits like a truck, but isn't particularly fast or bulky enough to stand out from the plethora of other great Choice Band wallbreakers such as Delibird and Meditite. Magnemite has arisen as a decent Phys Def Gloom check an Flying switch-in, among other things, due to the numerous type resistances it brings, although still gets bopped by HP Ground coverage. Poliwag, while initially ranked lower for its reliance on the inaccurate Hypnosis, stands out for being one of the fastest Pokemon in the metagame. If it lands Hypnosis and gets the Belly Drum off, it can steamroll over teams lacking priority options in the back or one of the few Pokemon faster than Poliwag. Ledian has arose as one of the best screen setters for HO and has enough Special Defense to do so reliably. Voltorb has seen a lot of use lately for being the fastest Pokemon in all of ADV ZU and has proven to be an effective lead, even seeing use on 2/3 of our current sample teams. Lastly, Castform is initially ranked at B for its solid 70/70/70/70/70/70 stats and wide offensive movepool consisting of option such as Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Double-Edge, and Shadow Ball. However, it faces a lot of competition from Delcatty in particular due to its access to Wish and Calm Mind.

Points of Discussion:
Lileep B --> C
Wailmer B --> C
Croconaw C --> D
Onix C --> D
Spinda D --> UR
Any other nominations you might have...
 

Just wanted to gab about ADV ZU's newest addition, Castform. At first glance I really thought this thing was going to be a gimmicky piece of garbage that would never be able to solidify itself a niche in the tier, but after looking at its stats I noticed it has one of the highest Atk/Spatk stats of any normal type in the tier. So, I decided to make a few potential sets, and a fun team around it.

Castform @ Choice Band
Ability: Forecast
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Water Pulse / Ice Beam
- Body Slam / Shadow Ball / Sleep Talk / Toxic

Thanks to Castform's solid base 70 Atk stat and its access to Double Edge its able to OHKO or 2HKO the majority of the tier. Castform's excellent movepool also allows it decimate any normal resists that plan to check it. Hidden Power Ground/Fighting do a ton of damage to normal checks like Magnemite, Nosepass, and Lileep. Water Pulse / Ice Beam either OHKO or 2HKO offensively threatening normal checks like Rhyhorn and Onix. The last slot comes down to preference: Body Slam provides decently strong STAB and a chance to paralyze foes, Shadow Ball gives perfect coverage with HP Fighting and can just be a nice move to throw out at times, Sleep Talk gives Castform the ability to absorb sleep and pressure weather sweepers with its fluid typing, and toxic is nice if you aim to predict and status your checks on the switch.

Castform @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Forecast
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt / Hidden Power [Grass]
- Flamethrower / Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave / Substitute / Toxic

Basically a poor man's Delcatty. Castform has the niche of having Flamethrower and a slightly higher special attack, and that's worth noting. Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower hit every mon in the tier, bar Chinchou for, for neutral damage. Hidden Power Grass is a nice coverage option to hit Chinchou for solid damage. Thunder Wave, Substitute, and Toxic give Castform extra utility whenever attacking isn't enough. Lum Berry can be ran over Leftovers to avoid status.




https://pokepast.es/83a761cdd61ccdaf

Just a really simple team to use. Try to either break with Castform early game or pivot in later on to secure kills. Chinchou can spam T-Wave for sweepers and Castform while breaking on its own. Pineco provides the sweepers and breakers with spikes, which in turn secures KOs for the team. Bayleef soaks up special attacks and can set up screens to support the team. Rhyhorn provides a check to normal types and a potential setup sweeper. Natu is the main sweeper of the team and it really appreciates the support other members give.
 
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I've been playing dpp for awhile now and I wanted to do a few things.

dusclops.png

Dusclops: High A > S

Dusclops is an insanely polarizing force in DPP ZU as arguably the best defensive mon in the entire tier, with it's absolutely ridiculous RestTalk set, being able to wall off entire teams cleanly, while threatening physical checks and pursuit trappers with a nasty burn off it's Will-O-Wisp. Through my personal experiences of playing with this mon, it's power is unmistakably tier shaping, sometimes even pushing players to designate multiple checks to take it down. To top it off, it's amazing statpool and secondary set make it splashable as all hell, letting it fit into a mass majority of playstyles to do it's job of being the fattest thing in the tier.



quagsire.png

Quagsire: High A > S
As well as rising Dusclops to a new S rank, I add that we should rise Quagsire as well. While not the polarizing harbinger of stall that Dusclops is, Quagsire is also immensely splashable between it's curse sweeper and defensive sets, being able to fit into a strong selection of teams and capitalize on its astounding Water/Ground typing both offensively and defensively.



yanma.png

Yanma: Mid B > Low A
Yanma should rise in my opinion due to how well it cleans teams up late game, and sometimes even mid game if it gets in as well as it does. It requires a good spin support to remove rocks, but once those are gone, this mon struts its stuff with a very powerful 2 STABs + Giga Drain set. Not much more to say here, just a very strong wallbreaker.


A Sample Team: FWG Semistall
lairon.png
wartortle.png
dusclops.png

flareon.png
quagsire.png
tangela.png

Lairon @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Iron Head

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Recover
- Curse

Tangela @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Lava Plume
- Toxic

Dusclops @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Seismic Toss
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Wartortle @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Foresight
- Surf
- Toxic

Lairon makes an amazing lead for the team, being able to set rocks as well as threaten Solrock, one of the most common rockers used currently. Head Smash and Earthquake are an amazing move combination that allows Lairon to be an offensive threat while it's on field, while it's typing let's it serve as a normal check. The FWG core is pretty standard for the most part, Tangela to check enemy quagsire and sleep things that want to switch in on it. HP Fire let's it effectively remove Mawile and enemy Tangela. Flareon is surprisingly bulky and can take an astonishing amount of hits on the special side while pressuring physical attackers with potenial burn and stallbreaking with toxic, with protect letting it serve as a Slaking check. Wartortle removes rocks, Quagsire is a wincon, and Dusclops sits on whatever it wishes to come in on, with pressure allowing it to pp stall if the need ever arises.
 
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Alright, to build off of what SBPC said, I'm gonna put out a hot take:

Dusclops is unhealthy for DPP ZU and should be suspect tested.

This thing can soak hits for days from most of the tier, and that's just considering standard sets. Mons that would be otherwise really good like Yanma just struggle to break A- because of this monster blocking their path. On top of this, even if you're running offense, you can run it to counter Persian, an otherwise huge threat to offense, simply because it's so splashable. It can also check mons such as Banded Granbull or Banded mightyena with stuff like Colbur to soak a hit and burn them, or run CM Resttalk to set up on mons like Yanma or Tangela. Finally, not a single mon listed on the VR can OHKO it without set up or an otherwise undesirable set like Specs Gastly.
Here are some examples of how insanely bulky this thing is:

252+ SpA Yanma Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dusclops: 106-126 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Pidgeot Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 127-151 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 122-146 (42.9 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Dusclops: 102-120 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Dusclops: 82-97 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dusclops: 224-266 (78.8 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dusclops: 198-234 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thanks for coming to my TED talk. Shoutout to SBPC for explaining to me the criteria for what makes something unhealthy.
 
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Alright, to build off of what SBPC said, I'm gonna put out a hot take:

Dusclops is unhealthy for DPP ZU and should be suspect tested.

This thing can soak hits for days from most of the tier, and that's just considering standard sets. Mons that would be otherwise really good like Yanma just struggle to break A- because of this monster blocking their path. On top of this, even if you're running offense, you can run it to counter Persian, an otherwise huge threat to offense, simply because it's so splashable. It can also check mons such as Banded Granbull or Banded mightyena with stuff like Colbur to soak a hit and burn them, or run CM Resttalk to set up on mons like Yanma or Tangela. Finally, not a single mon listed on the VR can OHKO it without set up or an otherwise undesirable set like Specs Gastly.
Here are some examples of how insanely bulky this thing is:

252+ SpA Yanma Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dusclops: 106-126 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Pidgeot Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 127-151 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 122-146 (42.9 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Dusclops: 102-120 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Dusclops: 82-97 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dusclops: 224-266 (78.8 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Houndour Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dusclops: 198-234 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thanks for coming to my TED talk. Shoutout to SBPC for explaining to me the criteria for what makes something unhealthy.
I absolutely disagree with this and I will explain why.

Dusclops is undeniably a great Pokemon in the tier, and arguably the best Pokemon in the tier. However, it is not broken by any means. The problem is when it comes the discrepancy between Dusclops' ability to blanket check so much in the teambuilder, versus in play. It's no where near as hard to overwhelm Dusclops as you suggest. Yes, it is so good because of its Ghost-typing causing it to be very anti-meta in a metagame full of physically biased normal types. But "not a single mon listed on the VR can OHKO it without setup or undeseirable set" is a terrible argument because Dusclops is naturally a defensive Pokemon and it probably shouldn't be OHKO'd by very much, and this is offset by its extreme passiveness.

Encore, Sub, Taunt, stallbreaking techniques, setup, and overall strong attacks can break through Dusclops because of its lack of reliable recovery and reliance on Leftovers to gain passive recovery, and Colbur is not a very viable set. I don't know why you are expecting so much out of Yanma, a Pokemon that was once unranked. Your calculations are not "stupid" at all - I don't know why you expect a physical normal-type to break through it (when the CB Pidgeot set actually 2hkos after a bit of chip like a spike or rocks?), weak non-stab moves like Yanma Shadow Ball to break through (Yanma's niche is speed boost cleaning, not breaking), or non-STAB physical Dark-type attacks to 2HKO through Colbur Berry, or a low-ranked first evolution Pokemon like Houndour to OHKO it. It's not like Dusclops can even do anything back to these Pokemon with the except of the Normal-types and Yanma.

Yes, Dusclops is splashable, but to say its putting meaningful pressure on anything resmbling balance is incorrect, and the tier currently has enough wallbreakers on offense to punish it. The free turns given by Dusclops when its forced to rest are ridiculously common, and it can't even reliably wall many of the Pokemon in the tier that aren't Normal-type. Because it is both surmountable, and generally does not really require a respective archetype to go out of its way to check, I don't think its suspect worthy. I actually think its healthy as it keeps many of the oppressive normal-types in check. I think you need to reanalyze the metagame and look over your teams and see why you may be struggling with Dusclops, and I'm sure many people would be willing to help you out with this here, PS!, or in the discord! Thanks for your contribution to the metagame as well.
 
I'm going to add onto Durza's post here and mention a couple of specific ways to check and counter Dusclops.

raticate.png
mightyena.png


These physical threats can both come onto dusclops rather cleanly and check it, due to being immune to burns after their orbs activate, even more so as they can use clops as setup fodder to boost up and sweep teams.

+2 252 Atk Guts Raticate Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 228-270 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Mightyena Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 186-218 (65.4 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

banette.png
mawile.png


This one is more self explained. Taunting Dusclops effectively shuts down it's sets. Banette especially vs Rest Talk, as it is immune to Seismic Toss.

Anyways, these are just a few examples for ways to effectively handle Dusclops. If you're having trouble handling Dusclops and bulkier teams based around it, feel free to use the sample sets of the mons listed in my post.
 
As I'm talking about it on Discord, I have some small questions. As is always the case in the creation of an old lower tier, we rely on the viability rankings of the upper tier to create the banlist (and therefore the tierlist). The limit isn't always the same: it can go from the B rank to the C+ rank. But here, I don't understand this limit well, since there are banished and authorized pokemons within the same rank. In an attempt to explain, I analyzed the list.
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If it's indeed the official banlist, here are the changes to make (as well as the remarks):
177349
Leafeon,
177350
Arbok and
177351
Pelipper are B+ rank, they aren't allowed in ZU;
177352
Abra,
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Vanilluxe,
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Flareon,
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Sneasel,
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Hypno,
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Kingler,
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Luxray,
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Marowak,
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Emolga,
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Munchlax,
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Raichu and
177363
Simisear are B rank, they aren't allowed in ZU;
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Lapras and
177365
Camerupt have recently dropped from NU (with Gigalith) because you are now based on the usages of September 2013. But both are absent BW PU VRs: so we can't comment on their presence in ZU. It's likely that they are potentially above rank B- (hence forbidden). Strangely, they aren't in the same situation: Lapras is present in the ZU's tierlist, not Camerupt;
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Lairon isn't present in the ZU tierlist, but it's also absent from the PU VRs: everything depends where it's placed;
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Banette and
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Dwebble aren't present in the ZU tierlist but I guess they are allowed.
However, it's absolutely possible that I'm wrong analysis and in fact the tierlist was created totally differently (in this case, you willn't fail then to correct me). Akir maybe this post can interest you.
 
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Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver
PU Leader
As I'm talking about it on Discord, I have some small questions. As is always the case in the creation of an old lower tier, we rely on the viability rankings of the upper tier to create the banlist (and therefore the tierlist). The limit isn't always the same: it can go from the B rank to the C+ rank. But here, I don't understand this limit well, since there are banished and authorized pokemons within the same rank. In an attempt to explain, I analyzed the list.
If it's indeed the official banlist, here are the changes to make (as well as the remarks):
View attachment 177349Leafeon, View attachment 177350Arbok and View attachment 177351Pelipper are B+ rank, they aren't allowed in ZU;
View attachment 177352Abra, View attachment 177353Vanilluxe, View attachment 177354Flareon, View attachment 177355Sneasel, View attachment 177356Hypno, View attachment 177358 Kingler, View attachment 177357Luxray, View attachment 177359Marowak, View attachment 177360Emolga, View attachment 177361Munchlax, View attachment 177362Raichu and View attachment 177363Simisear are B rank, they aren't allowed in ZU;
View attachment 177364 Lapras and View attachment 177365Camerupt have recently dropped from NU (with Gigalith) because you are now based on the usages of September 2013. But both are absent BW PU VRs: so we can't comment on their presence in ZU. It's likely that they are potentially above rank B- (hence forbidden). Strangely, they aren't in the same situation: Lapras is present in the ZU's tierlist, not Camerupt;
View attachment 177366 Lairon isn't present in the ZU tierlist, but it's also absent from the PU VRs: everything depends where it's placed;
View attachment 177367Banette and View attachment 177368Dwebble aren't present in the ZU tierlist but I guess they are allowed.
However, it's absolutely possible that I'm wrong analysis and in fact the tierlist was created totally differently (in this case, you willn't fail then to correct me). Akir maybe this post can interest you.
It is because we did not directly use the VR for deciding the mons list. That system works for Gens 1-3, where that is the standard, but for 4+ it was decided that trying to keep the organic nature of usage would be better if possible. Here is how we actually figured it out:

1. Find usage via tournaments. The PUPL usage was used here.
2. Find usage via ladder. There were several Ladder Spotlights that included Gen5 PU, and those were used.
3. Contrast the 2 lists. Both of the ways to find usage have their own unique flaws, but they are used to double check the work. Any mons that fall under the cutoff for BOTH lists is declared to be solidly in the tier below. As for the remaining outliers...
4. Triple check the unique outliers with representatives from the tier above. The outliers need a more nuanced hand to figure out who goes where. The representatives vote on the outliers to determine their fate, and some will rise/fall depending.

So this system attempts to be as accurate as possible, however due to BW PU usage being unavailable during the BW era, this tier is strictly speculation and should be taken as such.

I also appreciate you finding that Camerupt post again, I've been meaning to delete it. Camerupt is NU.
 

BP

formerly Broken Phobias
Holy Fuck these took awhile to find. Special thanks to Specs for helping me find most of them! If I'm missing anything let me know, please.

Links To Each Page:
Cumulative Stats from Last PUPL
Week 1 of PUPL 5
Week 2 of PUPL 5
BW PU Spotlight 1760
BW PU Spotlight 1650
BW PU Spotlight 1500
BW PU Spotlight 0

The way I see this list working is we can remove Pokemon that aren't relevant to the metagame. All you gotta do is just give me some suggestions via discord or the PS ZU Room and we can discuss. This should narrow down the list of actually viable mons quite a bit. I've already taken the liberty of doing this with help by SBPC. We can use this post as a reference until an Actual VR is put together.
:psyglad:
Arbok
Arbok
Beartic
Beartic
Beedrill
Beedrill
Bellossom
Bellossom
Butterfree
Butterfree
Carnivine
Carnivine
Chatot
Chatot
Chimecho
Chimecho
Corsola
Corsola
Delcatty
Delcatty
Dunsparce
Dunsparce
Female Dustox
Dustox
Emolga
Emolga
Exploud
Exploud
Fearow
Fearow
Flareon
Flareon
Girafarig
Girafarig
Glaceon
Glaceon
Granbull
Granbull
Heatmor
Heatmor
Female Hypno
Hypno
Illumise
Illumise
Kecleon
Kecleon
Kingler
Kingler
Lapras
Lapras
Leafeon
Leafeon
Lopunny
Lopunny
Female Lumineon
Lumineon
Lunatone
Lunatone
Female Luxray
Luxray
Magcargo
Magcargo
Marowak
Marowak
Masquerain
Masquerain
Female Meganium
Meganium
Mightyena
Mightyena
Noctowl
Noctowl
Female Octillery
Octillery
Pelipper
Pelipper
Persian
Persian
Phione
Phione
Pidgeot
Pidgeot
Purugly
Purugly
Raichu
Raichu
Raticate
Raticate
Regigigas
Regigigas
Seaking
Seaking
Seviper
Seviper
Shedinja
Shedinja
Shelgon
Shelgon
Simisear
Simisear
Slaking
Slaking
Solrock
Solrock
Female Sudowoodo
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Sunflora
Swalot
Swalot
Tropius
Tropius
Vanilluxe
Vanilluxe
Vespiquen
Vespiquen
Wailord
Wailord
Walrein
Walrein
Whiscash
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Wigglytuff
Wormadam (Trash form)
Wormadam-Trash

Boldore
Boldore
Charmeleon
Charmeleon
Clefairy
Clefairy
Dewott
Dewott
Dragonair
Dragonair
Eelektrik
Eelektrik
Flaaffy
Flaaffy
Grovyle
Grovyle
Herdier
Herdier
Ivysaur
Ivysaur
Kirlia
Kirlia
Krokorok
Krokorok
Lampent
Lampent
Lombre
Lombre
Magmar
Magmar
Marill
Marill
Marshtomp
Marshtomp
Female Nuzleaf
Nuzleaf
Palpitoad
Palpitoad
Pignite
Pignite
Prinplup
Prinplup
Pupitar
Pupitar
Seadra
Seadra
Togetic
Togetic
Weepinbell
Weepinbell
Whirlipede
Whirlipede

Abra
Abra
Sandshrew
Sandshrew
Foongus
Foongus
Munchlax
Munchlax
Mienfoo
Mienfoo
Onix
Onix
Pawniard
Pawniard
Staryu
Staryu
Omanyte
Omanyte
Frillish
Frillish
Baltoy
Baltoy
Drilbur
Drilbur
Hippopotas
Hippopotas
Lickitung
Lickitung
Pineco
Pineco


EDIT:
Ariados Bibarel minun plusle beautifly castform Cherrim Delibird Farfetch'd Furret Kricketune Leavanny Ledian Luvdisc Mothim Pachirisu Parasect Shuckle Spinda Stantler Unfezant Unown Dewgong Watchog Wormadam-Bush Wormadam-Sandy Bayleef Croconaw Gloom Grotle Jigglypuff Kakuna Loudred Luxio Metapod Nidorina Nidorino Pidgeotto Poliwhirl Quilava Sealeo Servine Skiploom Swadloon Tranquil Staravia Vibrava Vanillish

Abra
 
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So, as of writing this post, BW ZU has been released for somewhat short of a month. As the meta has been played essentially blind with just a tier list to go off of, we've reached a point where we can consider a meta to be formed within the tier.


The Meta:

Currently, some of the best playstyles are more centered towards offensive teams, including Sun, Hyper Offense, and VoltTurn teams. Sun is an especially strong team style, being able to rip apart any team without an answer to it, with Heat Rock giving it 8 turns, and setters like Onix or Illumise, who can almost guarantee the weathers go up, it can quickly become problematic for the unprepared player. Outside of the eyes of weather, other offensive styles still flourish, with plenty of powerful setup sweepers and choiced breakers to play around with like Arbok, Kingler, Emolga, and Simisear to name a few of the categories. But even in an offensive meta, defensive teams can still find a home within the fray, although your building with the style must be very calculated due to the amount of offensive pressure in the tier, with some staples of the style being Clefairy, Foongus, Sandshrew, Specially defensive Beedrill, and Frillish. This creates an offensively leaned meta that is balanced, and from it rises what appear to be it's key threats, mostly talked about via Discord conversations.


Key Threats:

  • Regigigas: An absolute pinnacle of destruction within the tier, this sleeping giant finds it rather easy to get past its slow start in the hands of a better player, and is considered to be one of the tier's mandatory mons to prepare for, regardless of style.
  • Simisear: Arguably the most splashable mon in the tier, due to it's set versatility, packing Choice Scarf, Life Orb, SubSalac, and other items of user's selection to easily fit into any team with its mighty STAB and coverage options.
  • Sun: With an excellent array of powerful abusers, such as Leafeon, Weepinbell, and the more awkward Solar Power Charmeleon, this playstyle should be prepped for at any level of play. Good examples to handle it are defensive Lampent, offensive answers like Simisear of your own, or even running the niche rain playstyle as a response.
Some Teams:

Of course, you can't play pokemon without teams, and with my own teams, as well as some given to me to post with permission, you'll find plenty of good building examples to take from in this section.


Offensive Builds:

Simiploud Offense - SBPC

A more self explanatory offensive team that makes good use of some of the breakers in the tier. Sandshrew and Kecleon make for an excellent hazard core to support the team as well.


Specs Octillery Offense - SBPC

This team focuses around using one of my favorite breakers in the tier, Octillery. With its excellent choice specs boosted special attack and amazing coverage, this monster finds itself terribly hard to switch into. Raticate uses its breaking power as well to boost up against stall teams and cause issues for offense teams. Baltoy compresses hazard roles, with Vullaby to help momentum as well as sit on enemy physical attackers. Shelgon

helps round out this team by being able to set up and smash and check the mighty simisear, with Lampent being a guaranteed switch in.


Exploud + Gastly Offense - SBPC

Another powerful breaker team featuring Exploud, but now it includes the mighty Dragonair as an immensely powerful setup sweeper. The team mostly explains itself, with Boldore and Staryu forming your hazard core.


Rain Offense - Broken Phobias

The team is as simple as it gets, get your rain up and start punching holes in the enemy. Lapras can be changed for Seadra, as it is faster and hits harder, but the team on its own functions well.


Standard Sun Offense - SBPC

Just some standard sun offense to give people a grasp of the playstyle. Very similar to rain, suicide Onix makes for an outstanding lead and afterward just start breaking teams down.

Pinktidal's Sun Offense - Pinktidal
Another standard sun team, just as straightforward as the other, get your weather up and start putting the enemy into the ground.

The Ritual Of Regi - SBPC

"Let your god rise from his grave as when paralysis is spread, Regigigas will both figuratively and literally confuse everyone as to what he's doing on the field, but this confusion will not be for long, as after 5 turns, God awakens, and Regigigas unleashes his power amongst the enemy team, devastating them with his might."

Just a fun offense team to use, cripple up opponents then let regi come in and start ripping holes in whatever remains.


Balanced Teams:


The Eel And The Shrew - SBPC

This balance team functions around the usage of bulky Eelektrik and it's partner Sandshrew. The defensive core with Eel serving as a pivot allows for Simisear and Granbull to receive relatively easy entry for smashing apart some teams, while Togetic makes for a disgustingly strong WinCon.


FWG Balance - Broken Phobias

This FWG is fairly easy to understand. Foongus has regen and spore to spread status as well as maintain its longevity. Heatmor comes equip with Flash Fire as its ability so it is able to support Foongus. Staryu removes hazards and spreads Status via T-wave which allows Heatmor an easier time when attacking due to its poor Speed stat. Choice Banded Fearow is able to fire off Powerful STAB attacks. In addition, Fearow acts as a great offensive Pivot. Choice Scarf Krok is able to Remove Psychic types that threaten Foongus and its able to function as a late game cleaner thanks to moxie. Finally, Hippo is able to set rocks and tank attacks that Foongus and Staryu can't.

(Thanks BP for making this description)

Tacked On Balance - Tack
A more generic balance with a solid VoltTurn, and toxic spikes to mess with the opposing team, with Staryu as a reliable spinner to help keep hazards from being obnoxious.

Defensive Teams:


Regen Stall - SBPC

This stall build revolves around the usage of Corsola and Foongus regen pivoting around the opponent, with Sandshrew cleanly removing hazards, and Flareon + Lickitung to pass around wishes and keep the team healthy. Lopunny is the team's mandatory Regigigas check as well, with sandshrew being an alternative check due to its spread.


Broken Stall - Broken Phobias

A more standardized stall build featuring a emolga as a fat source of momentum for the team to use, Clefairy is able to soak status and provide rocks while Sandshrew removes the opponents hazards. Beedrill sets Toxic Spikes, which are extremely annoying for offensive teams to deal with, while Frillish spinblocks and cripples attackers with burn. Finally, Chimecho plays cleric for the team, keeping it healthy and unstatused.


Viability Rankings Predictions:


Every tier that's developed has a list of all the viable pokemon sorted by ranks, now, at the time of this post, we don't have one, but a relevancy based tier list created by Broken Phobias and myself. These are my predictions on the future presence of a viability rankings.

Note: this is only the S ranks down to the A- ranks, and the pokemon are not sorted within tiers.


S Rank
Simisear
Regigigas
A Ranks:
A+:
Arbok
Emolga
Raticate
Leafeon
Togetic
A
Lopunny
Kecleon
Kingler
Dragonair
Marowak
A-
Sandshrew
Boldore
Gastly
Vullaby
Octillery
Raichu

Explaining The Ranks And Placements:

S Rank:

The S rank is reserved for dominant meta threats that are insanely present in the metagame, and must absolutely be prepared for, for these threats, please check the Key Threats section.


A Ranks:
This rank is here for mons that are incredibly present, and are capable of splashing onto teams easily while being incredibly useful with little to no reprecussions.


Arbok - Incredibly good setup threat with Coil, great coverage, hard to revenge kill due to Sucker Punch


Emolga - A powerful breaker that doesn't hold back at all, with access to flying gem acrobatics it can almost always confirm a kill, it has an amazing speed tier, and it can fit defensive roles with its stellar kit.


Raticate - Another powerful setup sweeper with access to sucker punch, this one however suffers a slight timer due to having to status itself for its potenial power, but it shouldn't be taken lightly at all.


Leafeon - This eeveelution has the ability to take center stage within the sun teams as well as be a capable threat outside of them due to its execellent speed tier.


Togetic - An incredibly fat mon with eviolite, being able to soak up blow after blow and heal it away with reliable recovery, great mon with access to nifty utility moves and decent STAB in Tri Attack, with good coverage options like Shadow Ball and Heat Wave


Lopunny - An incredibly annoying mon to face with its access to Klutz Switcheroo, letting it cripple enemy threats and annoy stall teams, especially eviolite users. Has a nice STAB in return as well.


Kecleon - Amazing specially defensive tank and stealth rock setter. Color Change can be abused but it can also annoy mons like Simisear with the type changing.


Kingler - Setup Sweeper with the potential to steamroll entire teams if you give it time to set up, also runs a choice scarf set.


Dragonair - Dragon Dance using mon that devastates any unprepared team with Outrage + Espeed.


Marowak - Possibly one of the most disgusting breakers in the tier thanks to thick club, near impossible to switch in on, very easy to revenge.


Sandshrew - The tier's most reliable spinner and one of the better physically defensive tanks of the tier. Goatshrew does goat things.


Boldore - A very reliable rocker as well as great mixed wall, and it has the added benefit of threatening substitute users with Rock Blast.


Gastly - Hard counters Regigigas (Return + EQ), reliable special attacker otherwise


Vullaby - Amazing physically defense wall, and it can fight against some of the setup threats by hitting foul play to punish their setup.


Octillery - Choice Specs user that's stupidly hard to switch into, it can blast through teams that aren't ready to handle it, but it can be revenged rather easily.


Raichu - Pretty powerful special attacking threat with a good speed tier, suffers due to being outsped by simisear, but it can deal great damage and pivot around.

Note: These are my opinions and predictions, and should definitely not be taken as an official ranking. (Although it'd be neat if i predicted right)

Acknowledgements:

Thanks to Broken Phobias, Tack, and Pinktidal for allowing me to share their teams in this post.
Hope you enjoyed reading, play BW ZU!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BP

formerly Broken Phobias
SBPC and I compiled a Role Compendium so people can start building and playing. You can suggest to Remove / Add Pokemon that Are / Aren't Viable in BW ZU. For example, if you test out Sudowoodo as a Stealth Rock user and thing its absolute ass just let me know and I'll remove it from the section. By doing this we should, as a community, be able to create an accurate role Compendium!

The Pokemon are in no particular order. This is what I used to sprite everything btw http://sprites.pokecheck.org/?gen=5&.
Aromatherapy / Heal Bell:
Chimecho
Clefairy
Lickitung
Flareon
Lapras
Wigglytuff
Chinchou
Togetic
Flaaffy
Granbull
Mightyena
Delcatty
Glaceon
Leafeon
Meganium


Healing Wish:
Clefairy
Chimecho
Lopunny


Wish:
Chimecho
Clefairy
Flareon
Wigglytuff
Lickitung
Female Girafarig
Togetic
Shelgon
Glaceon

Stealth Rocks:
Clefairy
Sandshrew
Onix
Marowak
Omanyte
Wigglytuff
Dunsparce
Corsola
Pineco
Shuckle
Sudowoodo
Marshtomp
Baltoy
Solrock
Lunatone
Kecleon
Anorith
Prinplup
Wormadam (Trash form)
Hippopotas
Boldore
Krokorok
Palpitoad
Pawniard


Spikes:
Omanyte
Pineco
Snorunt
Whirlipede
Trubbish


Toxic Spikes:
Omanyte
Beedrill
Whirlipede
Trubbish

Rapid Spin:
Drilbur
Sandshrew
Staryu
Pineco
Baltoy

Whirlwind:
Hippopotas
Pidgeot
Fearow
Noctowl
Dustox
Masquerain
Munchlax
Vullaby


Roar:
Onix
Lapras
Flareon
Granbull
Croconaw
Mightyena
Exploud
Loudred
Walrein
Shelgon
Luxray
Glaceon
Leafeon
Pignite
Herdier
Krokorok
Beartic


Perish Song:
Lapras
Marill


Haze:
Arbok
Poliwhirl
Seaking
Dragonair


Dragon Tail:
Arbok
Onix
Dragonair
Lickitung
Female Meganium
Seviper


Yawn:
Marshtomp
Swalot
Walrein
Hippopotas
Pignite

Physical Walls:
Sandshrew
Dunsparce
Corsola
Magcargo
Mightyena
Solrock
Hippopotas
Vullaby
Boldore
Shelgon


Special Walls:
Chimecho
Dustox
Kecleon
Flareon
Clefairy
Female Hypno
Noctowl
Foongus


Mixed Walls:
Lickitung
Wigglytuff
Shuckle
Corsola
Walrein

Physical Wallbreakers:
Pidgeot
Fearow
Kingler
Granbull
Regigigas
Pawniard
Leafeon
Carnivine
Raticate
Sneasel


Special Wallbreakers:
Simisear
Glaceon
Lapras
Raichu
Octillery
Girafarig
Chatot
Vanilluxe


Mixed Wallbreakers:
Flareon
Octillery
Seviper
Carnivine
Simisear
Heatmor


Stallbreakers:
Frillish
Emolga
Regigigas
Togetic
Beedrill
Lopunny
(Switcheroo)

U-turn:
Beedrill
Pidgeot
Fearow
Persian
Raticate
Dustox
Illumise
Masquerain
Chatot
Lumineon
Mothim
Mienfoo
Emolga


Volt-Switch:
Emolga
Eelektrik
Luxray
Pachirisu
Flaaffy
Raichu


Baton Pass:
Beedrill
Fearow
Flareon
Farfetch'd
Togetic
Girafarig
Illumise
Lunatone
Solrock
Masquerain
Shedinja
Lopunny
Leafeon
Glaceon
Emolga
Mienfoo

Rock Polish / Agility:
Emolga
Lunatone
Solrock
Fearow
Kingler
Seadra


Bulk Up / Curse / Coil:
Lapras
Arbok
Dunsparce
Granbull
Swalot
Munchlax
Mienfoo
Beartic
Eelektrik


Calm Mind:
Girafarig
Clefairy
Female Hypno
Ivysaur
Kirlia
Lunatone
Lampent


Dragon Dance:
Charmeleon
Lapras
Dragonair
Pupitar
Shelgon
Whiscash


Nasty Plot:
Raichu
Female Hypno
Togetic
Chatot
Simisear


Swords Dance:
Beedrill
Weepinbell
Raticate
Kingler
Pawniard
Dewott
Charmeleon
Ivysaur
Grovyle
Sneasel


Quiver Dance:
Butterfree
Dustox
Masquerain
Mothim

Raichu
Fearow
Raticate
Abra
Magmar
Lopunny
Leafeon
Grovyle
Simisear
Emolga

Choice Band:
Pidgeot
Fearow
Granbull
Kingler
Exploud
Sneasel
Sneasel


Choice Specs:
Raichu
Octillery
Vanilluxe
Simisear
Chatot
Glaceon


Choice Scarf:
Simisear
Krokorok
Vanilluxe
Mienfoo
Exploud
Girafarig
Pidgeot
Fearow
Charmeleon
Magmar
Kingler
Gastly
Lopunny
(Switcheroo)

Rain Setters:
Lapras
Omanyte
Lickitung
Raichu
Female Hypno
Togetic
Granbull
Lunatone
Lombre
Illumise
Chimecho
Kecleon
Lopunny
Pachirisu
Pelipper
Pidgeot


Rain Abusers:
Poliwhirl
Omanyte