NFE Pokemon in UU

[Murkrow]

Mostly, just using it as an example of why NFE's should just be banned unless they are distinct cases, even if they aren't too powerful.

So you are using Chansey as your example for why Magikarp, Pupitar, Metang, Tangela, and Gabite should be banned from UU.

My opinion is that the Chansey-tier NFEs are the exception, not the rule, and are dealt with using the BL tier. That's what it's for, right? To exclude the overpowered from the underused.

For those who would allow NFEs we would probably ban the offending Chanseys as well. And for those who would ban the unevolved crap like Bagon, no one would use those anyway. So really the fate of all the crap NFEs rests on guys like Gligar and Electabuzz and their ilk.

<List of important NFEs in dispute>

I'd like to sort these into:

"Distinct from evo":
Pikachu
Scyther
Trapinch
Clamperl
Vigoroth

Obviously no threat/NU:
Golbat
Cubone
Lickitung
Seadra
Tangela
Togetic
Aipom
Yanma
Murkrow
Nosepass
Onix
Roselia

At home with UU tier Pokemon:
Sneasel
Cranidos
Piloswine
Magmar

Debatable:
Gligar (probably OK)
Misdreavus (probably OK)
Kadabra (probably BL)
Electabuzz (probably OK)

Obviously not UU/ban to BL:
Chansey
Haunter
Magneton
Rhydon
Porygon2
Dusclops

So I think the only Pokemon that will be affected are the debatable ones I listed above.

By including the NFEs we get a lot more options to use, and that makes it more fun too. i.e. Pupitar isn't going to be much of a threat IMO, but it might be fun to be able to use a Dragon Dancing rock/ground. There are some surprising strategies that can be pulled with certain NFEs that might be fun to use in UU. By targeting the offenders with the BL designation rather than blanket-banning NFEs of OU Pokemon, we maintain balance as well as allow for more variety in the metagame.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Obviously no threat/NU:
Golbat
Cubone
Lickitung
Seadra
Tangela
Togetic
Aipom
Yanma
Murkrow
Nosepass
Onix
Roselia

Tangela: WTF? I'd use this! Great defense and special attack, Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Knock Off, Reflect, enough special attacks to pull off a specs set with Leaf Storm/Wring Out/HP Fire/Ancientpower with decent all-round coverage. Can't take a special attack unlike Meganium, but does a lot of things that it cannot. I'd hardly consider it NU.

Yanma: It may be softer than a wet paper bag, but Yanma still has a lot going for it. Two fantastic abilities, Hypnosis, a decent mix of special attacks (it gets double special STAB now, and good ones too!) and Focus Sash so it can actually take a hit. Makes a decent lead in UU if nothing else, just like Yanmega in OU.

Togetic: Good defenses, decent special attack, Serene Grace, Thunder Wave/Body Slam, Wish, Roost, Plot pass, pseudopassing, lots of special attacks to choose from, and probably more stuff I'm forgetting. Yeah, so obviously useless!

Anyways, I do agree with you in that there shouldn't be a blanket ban on all NFEs except distinctions. If certain Pokemon make UU 'boring' and less fun, then they can be removed at a later date, but I see no reason why NFEs cannot at least be given a try. Obviously the stronger ones will be banned, but that treatment is no different to that given to fully evolved Pokemon.

 

[Fishin]

Obviously no threat/NU:
Golbat
Cubone
Lickitung
Seadra
Tangela
Togetic
Aipom
Yanma
Murkrow
Nosepass
Onix
Roselia

Cubone can achieve just as much attack as Azumarill with Thick Club. Not a massive threat due to it's awful speed and so-so defenses, but probably too powerful for NU.

Actually, several of those would be too powerful for NU.

 

[Murkrow]

Sorry, by "NU" I meant "I think it will be UU in UU." Let's not even BEGIN to talk about NFEs in the actual tier that is NU. My point was that there are only a few guys that pose any threat to the balance and fun of UU, and Togetic, Yanma and Tangela are not those guys.

 

[Gmax]

DUH, I knew that. Huge power doubles its attack. So what? I thought Azumarril was way better DEFENSIVELY than it is, so I thought it could get away with more. But no matter how much attack something has, it's not gonna sweep with Aqua Jet. And you people must think slapping a choice band on anything makes it dangerous. Just switch in a Water type and laugh at Azumarril, as it either switches or lets you set up.

As for Gligar, didn't you guys just finish saying it can SWEEP!? Not really. As a tank, gligar is good, and as a BPasser, but it's not game breaking. Anything can baton pass and be worth something. I jsut don't think Gligar is BL just becuase of Roost. Stone edge is only a bit better than Rock SLide was too. Oh, and the list of UU water types is huge, and any one of em learns Ice moves.

You don't need to swear at me if you think you're right, y'know. I do my research too.

Well, I didn't really swear at you. Now if you don't think that slapping a CB on something that has 436 Attack, a good STAB move in Waterfall, and Focus Punch to deal with your stupid Bulky waters(who won't exactly be shrugging off Waterfall) makes it powerful, then I'm sorry, I can't argue with you. Too much bias. Oh, and since Aqua Jet gives you priority, you can pump some EVs into its Base 100 HP to take hits better. I used to use it in OU, with 52 EVs for Blissey, 252 Attack, 204 in HP. That did pretty well.

And about Stone Edge being just a LITTLE better than Rock Slide, there's a fucking 25 BP difference(NOTE:Not "swearing" at you here), and Stone Edge can also crit 20% of the time. While it may also miss 20% of the time, its still a powerful move. And Gligar is a TANK, not a sweeper. I wouldn't say Sweeper X is powerful because of Roost. Tank X however, is a completely different thing, so yeah, Gligar is going to be a bitch in UU if it stays there. Bulky waters with no form of recovery won't enjoy continuously taking STAB EQs on the switch.

Says the idiot who doesn't notice the 76 (one higher lol) special attack, the much better HP, agility, hypnosis, and a STAB air slash. It's not just a wall, it's excellent utility and somewhat powerful too.

Says the idiot who didn't notice the Boltbeam weak, the EV investment you'll have to make to make up for its crappy weaknesses, the inability to deal with Hypno, the lack of Baton Pass, and its Rock weakness. The only really prominent weaknesses that Gligar has are Ice and Water, neither of which he'll be staying in to take, plus with the abundance of bulky waters, its not much of an issue, they'll take it easily. And since Noctowl is meant to take special attacks, its just going to get owned. And Noctowl can't learn Nasty Plot like Gligar learns SD. Just don't compare them, please.

 

[obi]

Stone Edge has a 12.5% CH rate.

Someone earlier claimed that Electabuzz is faster and has more Special Attack than Electivire. This is false. It has 10 more base Speed with the same Special Attack.

Vigoroth is one of few Pokemon that can Flail + Reversal. It also gets Shadow Claw for Ghosts. Add in Vital Spirit as a decent trait, and no, it's not outclassed by other stuff.

To add to the list of Pokemon that are potentially distinct from their evolutions (usually thanks to more Speed), but are more of a gray area than stuff like Vigoroth:

Onix
Poliwhirl
Magneton
Magmar
Electabuzz
Pupitar (STAB Ground makes EQ stronger and grants an immunity. It doesn't have SS)
Murkrow

I think that's it. If a Pokemon ends up in the NU tier, then its pre-evo would obviously be NU as well, so I don't really care about Masquerain (although I put forth an argument before explaining why Surskit is irrelevant, anyway, because of the stat differences). I probably forgot some, but oh well.

 

[Deck Knight]

Stone Edge has a 12.5% CH rate.

Someone earlier claimed that Electabuzz is faster and has more Special Attack than Electivire. This is false. It has 10 more base Speed with the same Special Attack.

Vigoroth is one of few Pokemon that can Flail + Reversal. It also gets Shadow Claw for Ghosts. Add in Vital Spirit as a decent trait, and no, it's not outclassed by other stuff.

To add to the list of Pokemon that are potentially distinct from their evolutions (usually thanks to more Speed), but are more of a gray area than stuff like Vigoroth:

Onix
Poliwhirl
Magneton
Magmar
Electabuzz
Pupitar (STAB Ground makes EQ stronger and grants an immunity. It doesn't have SS)
Murkrow

I think that's it. If a Pokemon ends up in the NU tier, then its pre-evo would obviously be NU as well, so I don't really care about Masquerain (although I put forth an argument before explaining why Surskit is irrelevant, anyway, because of the stat differences). I probably forgot some, but oh well.

See, I know this is UU/BL, but I really don't see Masquerain as NU anymore. It still has Intimidate, an awesomely awesome trait, but now it has Bug and Flying special STABs for its higher special attack. Beautifly must have more SA, but it doesn't have Air Slash (LOL Gust), Ice Beam, or Hydro Pump. Masquerain is definetely much better than it used to be. Seriously, that right there could be a Specs set. Oh, and apparently now it can Agility-pass since Surskit leans Baton Pass naturally now.

 

[obi]

Yes, Masquerain got better, but most things did. With the massive number of Pokemon added, this increases the pool of Pokemon in all tiers, meaning the overall power in each tier relative to the previous generation has also increased. And, to be frank, with how NU is shaping up to be, I still don't care about it. It was in ADV and appears that it will be in DP just a scrapheap of the Pokemon that really aren't unique. Unless we move the line dividing OU / BL from UU to include more powerful Pokemon (and thus potentially move up the line dividing UU from NU), I'm not going to make any specific arguments for NU.

Now, as I've mostly spoken in generalizations ("distinct Pokemon"), I'd say my reasoning still applies to NU Pokemon, but I really don't care.

 

[Mekkah]

What I see a lot in tier discussion threads is the following format for something

Positive:
This Pokemon should be in [higher tier than it is], maybe even [insanely high tier]. [thing it can do #1], [thing it can do #2], [thing it can do #3]...[repeat until thing it can do #n].

Occasionally a [thing it can't do or sucks at #1 or #2] is added, but immediatly the disadvantages of said thing is pointed out, and by disadvantages I mean "but hey Salamence is weak to Ice Beam too and it didn't stop him from being godly" or "it's hurt by Stealth Rock but then again so many Pokemon are" or "it has kinda low defenses but enough to take a hit".

And oh so often, I could take the whole thing, reverse everything by posting what stated below, and still end up with a true statement. End product: useless reposting of the pro's and cons of a Pokemon. What you need to know to judge a Pokemon's worth is the relative power to the Pokemon in the metagames you are measuring it.

This Pokemon should be in [lower tier than it is], maybe even [insanely low tier]. [thing it can't do or sucks at #1], [thing it can't do or sucks at #2], [thing it can't do or sucks at #3]...[repeat until thing it thing it can't do or sucks at #n].

Occasionally a [thing it can #1 or #2] is added, but immediatly the disadvantages of said thing is pointed out, and by disadvantages I mean "it can Dragon Dance but Salamence is better at it" or "it gains Leftovers recovery but then again Breloom gains twice as much" or "it can take a hit but gets worn down after a while".

 

[Thunderpup]

And about Stone Edge being just a LITTLE better than Rock Slide, there's a fucking 25 BP difference(NOTE:Not "swearing" at you here), and Stone Edge can also crit 20% of the time. While it may also miss 20% of the time, its still a powerful move. And Gligar is a TANK, not a sweeper. I wouldn't say Sweeper X is powerful because of Roost. Tank X however, is a completely different thing, so yeah, Gligar is going to be a bitch in UU if it stays there. Bulky waters with no form of recovery won't enjoy continuously taking STAB EQs on the switch.

You're wrong about the crit chance, it's actually 12%. Also, "fucking" 25BP versus 20% accuracy doesn't make rock slide useless. In fact, there are some pokemon who would prefer 100% accuracy (in fact, this is the whole thunderbolt versus thunder argument, and honestly, that is a 30% difference and they chose accuracy over power. Also a 25 BP difference there. 20% accuracy is better, but you realize that rock slide has a 30% chance to crit, so some pokemon like the accuracy over power)

Says the idiot who didn't notice the Boltbeam weak, the EV investment you'll have to make to make up for its crappy weaknesses, the inability to deal with Hypno, the lack of Baton Pass, and its Rock weakness. The only really prominent weaknesses that Gligar has are Ice and Water, neither of which he'll be staying in to take, plus with the abundance of bulky waters, its not much of an issue, they'll take it easily. And since Noctowl is meant to take special attacks, its just going to get owned. And Noctowl can't learn Nasty Plot like Gligar learns SD. Just don't compare them, please.

What are you talking about? You began comparing them, and what are you even trying to say? You're comparing two pokemon in two different roles. Your first witty comeback stated that noctowl had 50 base attack. Well he doesn't use that stat, and you were comparing two pokemon from two different roles. If you actually knew anything, you'd know that noctowl can take UU boltbeam like a champ and roost it all off. Also, throwing a special wall against a special wall makes no sense. If noctowl knew whirlwind (which it probably would) I don't see how hypno can beat noctowl, considering as it also has insomnia. Not to mention you're making an argument similar to "heracross sucks because weavile can kill it with aerial ace!!!!" Wow, one pokemon might be able to beat it!!! Shut up.

I mean seriously. You haven't done the calc's for boltbeam (not to mention gliscor is also weak to boltbeam) and for rock "noctowl clearly won't be staying in" and your argument makes no sense. So get over it.

 

[Deck Knight]

Thunderpup: Noctowl does fine against non-STAB Boltbeams, its problem is it can't absorb STAB Thunderbolt's or Ice Beams indefinetely. Its great it can take Starmie Boltbeams, but you're talking 100 SA unboosted numbers there., which basically means Noctowl can stall out Starmie but never actually do anything to it.

Walrein Ice Beam with no EVs or Nature against 252 HP/0 SDef +SDef Noctowl:

46-54%.

In this best case scenario, Noctowl is locked into Roost if it wants to take Walrein's Ice Beam.

Manectric Thunderbolt, 252 EVs +Speed:

63-74%: Also locks you into a Roosting War.

The fact is, most BoltBeam users have STAB on the 95 power variant of their type and Noctowl can't do a damn thing to them. One Freeze or Para and it's lights out for Noctowl, as it struggles to do anything.

 

[Pneuma]

Well, Roost has the same PP as Ice Beam/Tbolt so you could potentially take one regular IB/Tbolt and Roost off the other 17 with one Roost to spare.

Has anyone ever had the patience to do such a thing? Once the opponent cannot 2HKO you and you have an extra Roost, you should have 3 turns to disable them in all and even if you fail to do that, you've taken the piss out of the opponent's best STAB move.

A Walrein without IB would be great to switch a Water Absorber into, for example. Or a Flying type that isn't afraid of Manectric.




Well, the more I think about it, freeze or para would win. >:E

 

[Great Sage]

There are several problems with trying to stall the Ice Beam/Thunderbolts out. First, Thunderbolt has 24 PP with PP Ups, so that's more than Roost has. Second, there is the paralysis/freeze rate that you mentioned. And third, there is also the critical hit chance. If you're locked into Roosting every turn, chances are that your opponent will get a critical hit with the move you're trying to stall out.

 

[Mekkah]

Thunderpup and whoever else is overheating in a non-Pokemon sense: come on. This is tier discussion, not Jerry Springer. No need to call each other names.

Also, why are you guys discussing Noctowl? This is "NFE Pokemon in UU".

 

[Bourbon]

I agree with most of the stuff discussed here, but honestly: HOW is Cubone gonna succeed in UU? I mean, witht the thick club it gets quite high attack, but it's slow and weak to many common attacks. I mean, you could sue it if you wanted to, but theres better choices.

Haunter isn't that good except with Hypnosis, and Kadabra can be dispatched by shadow sneak/sucker punch or any priority move.

So, yeah, theres my two cents. And I still think Azumarril and Gligar are UU.

 

[Forsety]

I'm just going to ask upfront because I'm lazy.

Has there been a consensus on Snover and Hippopotas?

Would be nice if there is one since they've been the subject of many problems with UU/BL discussions.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Pretty sure they're gonna be banned from UU.

 

[Murkrow]

I'm not yet decided on Kadabra. Alakazam isn't quite standard in OU, so "OU-lite" is somewhat less of an argument against it. With base 40 and 30 HP and Defense respectively, it is more of a glass cannon than Sharpedo but is significantly faster. Like Sharpedo, it can pretty much only switch in on Psychic attacks; anything faster (e.g. with Scarf) can revenge kill it. It has a wide range of support moves and the awesome Trick, but can't really use the support moves because of the aforementioned frailty. Hypno, Claydol, and Grumpig resist its only STAB move and can probably take its other special attacks besides repeated Specs Shadow Ball (and they fear Trick). It needs Focus Blast to take down Probopass and Cacturne/Sharpedo. Anything's Sucker Punch is a OHKO on Kadabra and other priority moves will probably take most of its health away. So I think it would be very strong, but not necessarily dominant. Certainly it seems in the league of Hypnosis/Nasty Plot Ninetales, 125 base attack and X-Scissor/Close Combat Pinsir, Walrein, etc. But again, 40 HP/30 Def makes virtually any physical attack a OHKO. Just my thoughts, based on theorymon so an opinion is all that it is.

Haunter - I'd definitely say no. It outclasses Misdreavus in the way that Gengar is used over Mismagius. And according to Bologo's lists of the top-used OUs, Gengar is #4 or something. So Haunter would definitely ring true to charges of "OU lite." It has virtually everything available to Gengar, powered down but still very powerful. Same typing and access to Hypnosis/Wisp, Explosion, high special and speed, STAB Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball, incredibly unpredictable. Haunter would be the premier ghost of UU, much to the valid frustration and fears of the "No NFEs in UU" crowd.

 

[rubycow14]

Kadabra should stay for sure. It was UU last gen, and if anything it got worse this gen. Now it has Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak to deal with, and there is no way Kadabra is taking those. Also, It now can't do anything with the elemental punches anymore, so it loses a lot of coverage. With Specs or Scarf, Hypno/Grumpig can revenge kill on its Psychic, if that is what it is locked into. At the very least they can scare it away. Also, without Scarf, Scarfers utterly rip Kadabra apart.
Kadabra can easily stay in UU, it isn't an extreme threat, though it would, most likely be commonly used, since it can sweep all non-Scarfers/Special Sponges/Priority movers/Probopass's

 

[obi]

I think we ought to decide whether we're even allowing NFE Pokemon below the tier of their fully-evolved counterparts before we start trying to determine which tier any given NFE Pokemon fits in. That, really, is what this thread is for.

 

[Deck Knight]

I think we ought to decide whether we're even allowing NFE Pokemon below the tier of their fully-evolved counterparts before we start trying to determine which tier any given NFE Pokemon fits in. That, really, is what this thread is for.

So far, the bases of anything regarding this have been covered and ALL of them are subjective:

Potential reasons not to let NFEs in UU:
It will make UU "less fun."
It will make UU "OU-lite," and thus not be a real break from Standard because you will only see standard "mini-mes".

Potential reasons to let NFEs in UU:
It will have no effect on or even increase the "fun" level of UU because "fun-ness" is entirely subjective.
The idea of "OU-Lite" is nonsense because even in the case of "mini-mes," they are at best watered-down versions of their OU counterparts with far fewer viable strategies.

Potential reasons to only let some NFEs in UU:
Theory 1: Most NFEs would not unbalance or drastically alter UU in any way, shape, or form, but several NFEs do cross the line to BL even in their less-evolved state. This list is small and includes things like Haunter, Kadabra, Chansey, Snowver, Hippopotas, etc.
Theory 2: Most NFEs are merely "OU-lite" pokemon and so we should only allow those pokemon that are substantially different from their OU conterparts into UU, notable examples being Pikachu, Electabuzz, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Trapinch, etc.

That is basically a summary of this thread up to this point.

 

[Deck Knight]

Kadabra should stay for sure. It was UU last gen, and if anything it got worse this gen. Now it has Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak to deal with, and there is no way Kadabra is taking those. Also, It now can't do anything with the elemental punches anymore, so it loses a lot of coverage. With Specs or Scarf, Hypno/Grumpig can revenge kill on its Psychic, if that is what it is locked into. At the very least they can scare it away. Also, without Scarf, Scarfers utterly rip Kadabra apart.
Kadabra can easily stay in UU, it isn't an extreme threat, though it would, most likely be commonly used, since it can sweep all non-Scarfers/Special Sponges/Priority movers/Probopass's

Kadabra basically got a movepool realignment from the elemental punches to HP Fite/Shadow Ball/Energy Ball, so it was generally an increase in overall base power. Doesn't hit Flying types as well, but EB covers Water and Ground types, HP Fire covers Steels, and Shadow Ball covers other Psychics and Ghosts.

 

[Mood4food77]

magikarp is a flailsweeper, gyarados is a physical sweeper and a taunter

magikarp is usuable...but really, unless you can BP 6 speed and attack boosts to it, it's not doing anything

 

[obi]

OK, I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I'm going to keep saying it until people stop using this argument.

"It won't matter, so we may as well let them in. It's not like anyone will use them."

Rarity is never a substitute for balance. Either you guys saying this are right, in which case we might as well NOT allow them, too. All I need is even one argument against allowing them in (and I have at least one argument), and if you say "it won't matter", then we shouldn't let them in, because the argument is between against and no argument. That averages out to against!

The other option is that you are wrong, and it will in fact matter. In that case, the argument is still invalid.

The idea of "OU-Lite" is nonsense because even in the case of "mini-mes," they are at best watered-down versions of their OU counterparts with far fewer viable strategies.

That's actually the definition of "OU-lite". Watered-down counterparts that bring nothing new to the table.

So if that is the summary of the arguments for, then the arguments are logically invalid.

 

[Deck Knight]

OK, I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I'm going to keep saying it until people stop using this argument.

"It won't matter, so we may as well let them in. It's not like anyone will use them."

Rarity is never a substitute for balance. Either you guys saying this are right, in which case we might as well NOT allow them, too. All I need is even one argument against allowing them in (and I have at least one argument), and if you say "it won't matter", then we shouldn't let them in, because the argument is between against and no argument. That averages out to against!

The other option is that you are wrong, and it will in fact matter. In that case, the argument is still invalid.

That's actually the definition of "OU-lite". Watered-down counterparts that bring nothing new to the table.

So if that is the summary of the arguments for, then the arguments are logically invalid.

Alright Obi, explain to me:

Is this about balance or is this about boring?

Very, very few NFEs cause an unbalance, leading to Theory 1 of "Let most in, regardless of their similarities to their evolved counterparts."

If people consider "OU-Lite" pokemon "boring," then that's an opinion their entitled to, just like people are entitled to hate on Blissey. Unlike Blissey however, virtually no NFE pokemon will reach the heights of popularity.

If this is about balance, there's basically no reason not to let in the overwhelming majority of NFEs. It would expand UU quite a bit if we allowed people to use Dragons other than Altaria, and more Ice types than just the /Water variants. It isn't like people will be forcing smogon admins to do an analysis for every single NFE in existence, or even any of them.

As it stands, opponents of NFEs have not provided a reason not to allow most NFE's other than "they are OU-lite," as if allowing weaker versions of effective OU strategies in a generally weaker metagame is inherently a bad thing.

Personally I don't give a rip if a pokemon is "substantially different" from its evolution. Usable is usable, and I say let the metagame decide what works and what doesn't. If people want to bring out their Scarfed Gabites with Outrage, I say bring it on.