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NFE Pokemon in UU

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OK, since I have made the comment "it doesn't matter" a few times I feel obliged to restate my view as a more proactive argument.

I support the inclusion of balanced NFEs in UU because:

[My positive argument]

It simplifies the rules: all NFEs are allowed, besides the ones that are deemed BL. This rule is broad, simple and it makes sense; it's easy to state to new players. Rhydon and Chansey are not allowed in UU for the same reason that fully-evolved BL Pokémon are not allowed.

The alternative would be much hazier; it would revolve around arguments whether a Pokémon is distinct enough from its evolution or not. Is Tangela distinct enough from its evolution? How about Shelgon? It has Rock Head instead of Intimidate and 100 Defense (IIRC); doesn't fly but lacks the 4x weakness to Ice; and can't fire off much of a Draco Meteor. I would say that is about as different from Salamence as Magmar is from Magmortar. This would have to be done for every NFE. And I feel that this is much more subjective than the typical "does this Pokémon over-centralize the game" debate that every Pokémon is subject to. And we might end up including a lot of stuff. If that happens, we might as well just include them all.

And really, that's it for my reasoning.

You could say including NFEs in UU gives us more variety. This is true, and I support this view, but many of the NFEs that are even vaguely useable in UU might be considered separate from their evolutions. For example, Pupitar is one UU that probably would not be very good (when you can use Golem) but might be fun with Dragon Dance, STAB Earthquake, and Shed Skin. It is quite different from its evolution, and should be in UU even if we ban the indistinct NFEs. Shelgon too, and Murkrow and Electabuzz both have more speed. Thus I think my main reasoning for wanting NFEs in UU is because it makes the tier list easier to explain and to understand.

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BTW, what's our position on Phione? It has no strengths over Manaphy, so it can be considered a crippled ("lite") Manaphy as Grovyle might be considered a crippled Sceptile or Gabite a crippled Garchomp. It does not seem overpowered in UU at all. If excluded on the basis of "indistinct NFE" would it go to BL??

Also, Deck Knight I like your post where you covered both sides of the argument.
 
There is a way to decide what is distinct and what is not - defined rules over the entire range instead of case by case debates.

Here is a list of my definitions of "distinct NFEs" and what pokemon are included in each case. This is my answer to the question: What do they bring to the table?

Unique Item that cannot be used by the evolved form:
Clamperl
Pikachu

Secondary STAB changes
Only counts dual-typed NFE pokemon, so replacing one type with another
Nincada (Ground vs. Flying/Ghost)
Onix (Ground vs. Steel)
Pupitar (Ground vs. Dark)
Scyther (Flying vs. Steel)
Surskit (Bug vs. Flying)

Has at least one Stat greater than it's evolved form
Anorith (Speed)
Electabuzz (Speed)
Magmar (Speed)
Magneton (Speed)
Murkrow (Speed)
Onix (Speed)
Poliwhirl (Speed)
Porygon2 (Def/SDef)
Remoraid (Speed)
Scyther (Speed)
Shelgon (Def)
Surskit (Speed)
Tangela (Speed)
Trapinch (Attack greater than Vibrava)

I didn't feel like doing the ability list because most of the time it isn't that much of a difference. For the NFEs that gain a secondary type upon evolution, that list would include a significant fraction of the NFEs. Pokemon I can think of that don't work with either of these other two definitions:

Gligar, Lickitung, Dusclops, Piloswine, Haunter, Kadabra, and Chansey

The three definitions above include 17 more pokemon, and four already have write ups for the Analysis section. I'm sorry if I missed any, but comparing stats for evolution lines numbs the mind.
 
Trapinch has the same Attack as its fully evolved counterpart, Flygon, but it has Arena Trap, so it's still good. I think only Vigoroth really adds something new as far as traits go.

Surskit's STAB change is irrelevant because the lower Special Attack stat means it still does less damage with Hydro Pump than Masquerain.
 
Polytree, thank you for making that list. I just think it would be silly to have to place Remoraid and Nincada onto the tier list and that the other option avoids doing this.

Obi said:
Surskit's STAB change is irrelevant because the lower Special Attack stat means it still does less damage with Hydro Pump than Masquerain.
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Yes, you are right but it is technically different, and if invoking a rule on distinctness for maintaining certain guys in UU like Polytree is doing, Surskit would follow the rule too. For example, Surskit doesn't take 50% from Stealth Rock and it has Swift Swim. It is also faster than Masquerain (65 > 60), so if we're saying Poliwhirl and Murkrow are different from their evolutions on the basis of speed, Surskit is too.

Nincada is, from what I can tell, completely outclassed within its typing by Ground Wormadam. But Nincada IS completely different from its evolutions, so legal in UU it is!
 
I read the thread and try to make the simplest rules that would fit the NFE pokes discussed - but only ones that people chose for a specific reason over their evolution. It isn't on the tier of these pokes, just on why some are better than the evolved form. This did mean that three crappy NFEs are included, ones on the level of Luvdisc. If you include a Stat Total Floor, Trapinch is eliminated with the three (Surskit, Nincada, Remoraid) I wanted to remove. I can't find a simple way to eliminate them.

My Trapinch determination was off the next step of evolution and not the final form, mainly for Trapinch's inclusion on the list. Trapinch and Vigoroth are probably the main two exceptions for unique abilities. I didn't want to start a "what ability makes a NFE unique" list and then have a debate start over whether Inner Focus versus Pressure for Sneasel to Weavile is enough to include it.
 
I'm fine with all of those on Polytree's list being eligible for UU apart from Scyther and Porygon 2, both of whom are, in IMHO, too powerful.
 
polytree, your typing list has mistakes

onix has a rock typing that changes to steel when it evolves into steelix

surskit has a water typing that changes into flying upon evolution

you forgot skorupi, who's bug type changes to dark

also swablu, whose normal type changes to dragon
 
I know this discussion is rather old but I would like to know whether a decision has been taken and if it has not I have some suggestions about how to go about making the decision, its not like we’re discussing whether to allow a single pokemon in UU its hundreds and so many people disagree. Here are my suggestions.

1. Open poll
Someone posts a simple poll that everyone can vote on, the community agrees that whatever answer is designed by the poll will be accepted (but may still be discussed).

Disadvantages: many people that have little (or no) competitive battling experience may vote and obscure the votes or more experienced battlers

Advantages: it will have a clear answer. It will be fair and democratic (someone’s going to joke about smogon not being a democracy)

2. A limited poll
Someone posts a poll that only some people can vote on e.g. only 100+ posts or only mods

Disadvantages: it is difficult to determine who can vote, and it may be arbitrary.

Advantages: mostly people who know about the subject will vote. It will have a clear answer.

3. Continued discussion
This thread (or something similar) is revived and people continue to discus the issue.

Disadvantages: it may take a very long time or we may never reach a decision

Advantages: well urm… I suppose it would help people to show there views, but it has been tried before and it just petered out

That’s all I can think of right now

Also if this topic is too old to be revived can I (or someone else) have permission to post a new one, as this topic needs to be resolved.
 
eric the espeon said:
I know this discussion is rather old but I would like to know whether a decision has been taken and if it has not I have some suggestions about how to go about making the decision, its not like we’re discussing whether to allow a single pokemon in UU its hundreds and so many people disagree. Here are my suggestions.

1. Open poll
Someone posts a simple poll that everyone can vote on, the community agrees that whatever answer is designed by the poll will be accepted (but may still be discussed).

Disadvantages: many people that have little (or no) competitive battling experience may vote and obscure the votes or more experienced battlers

Advantages: it will have a clear answer. It will be fair and democratic (someone’s going to joke about smogon not being a democracy)

Smogon isn't a democracy. Couldn't resist.

2. A limited poll
Someone posts a poll that only some people can vote on e.g. only 100+ posts or only mods

Disadvantages: it is difficult to determine who can vote, and it may be arbitrary.

Advantages: mostly people who know about the subject will vote. It will have a clear answer.

Good idea.

3. Continued discussion
This thread (or something similar) is revived and people continue to discus the issue.

Disadvantages: it may take a very long time or we may never reach a decision

Advantages: well urm… I suppose it would help people to show there views, but it has been tried before and it just petered out

No real decision-making here, just a bunch of people arguing back and forth about their opinions until the thread dies, as it already did.

That’s all I can think of right now

Also if this topic is too old to be revived can I (or someone else) have permission to post a new one, as this topic needs to be resolved.
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i guess a few pokes could make it into UU tier like magmar and electabuzz, just like other people are saying. also i think that syther is too powerful for UU and should be in MU.
 
To reinitiate the discussion of NFE's in UU.

Widely Acceptable NFE's.
-Scyther
-Magmar
-Electabuzz
-Trapinch
-Poliwhirl
-Clamperl
-Vigoroth
-Pikachu

NFE's up for discussion:
-Tangela
-Gligar
-All other NFE’s

NFE's considered OU-Lite for sure
-Chansey
-Haunter
-Kadabra
-Snover
-Hippopotas

UU is a ruleset defined by people who desire to have fun, as stated by the Smogon Philosophy Article,
Smogon Philosophy Article/ said:
The UU (and NU) metagames exist to mitigate this problem by creating an arena where lesser Pokémon can be used while still following the competitive ideal, but this is not perfect, and many Pokémon simply find themselves never used.
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Therefore, as NFE's are lesser used pokemon, why don't they have a role in the metagame?

My main argument concerns the true feasibility of "OU-Lite" as a counter-argument against NFE's.

The previous premise that the inclusion of NFE’s in UU has been based upon is that they are sufficiently “different” from their evolved forms to warrant inclusion.
Things like Pikachu are distinguished by power-items. Magmar and Electabuzz are distinguished by stat distribution. Vigoroth has been distinguished by ability, Scyther by typing, and Poliwhirl on a combination of the previous three arguments.

The basis of the argument against "OU-Lite" is that it would be possible for people to eventually construct teams that consist solely of pokemon with evolved counterparts in OU so that their teams could function in the same way, and thus variety would decrease.

Firstly, to uniformly ban all NFE's from the UU game and then reexamine each one for entrance is an extreme measure that is likely unneeded. This is what has gone on in the past, as the above lists show.

However, by this reasoning a creative player wishing to use, say, a Last Resort Eevee because it is his favorite pokemon and he'd like to see it available in the metagame will have to petition for its inclusion on the list. The same goes for Shelgon, which has access to Wish and the resistances of a Dragon-type, while at the same time it foregoes the egg moves it might have to use Wish.

On the other hand, there are those who argue that a pokemon like Sneasel is OU-lite solely because its role is analogous to that of Weavile, and that it would bring OU-lite into UU. In the case of things like Haunter and Chansey, the argument is clearly against them. In the case of Tangela, the case is less clear due to higher speed and different defenses, the argument has been made that Tangela fulfills the argument for inclusion of differing stat distribution.
In the case of Piloswine (a historical UU) Mamoswine is basically a stronger duplicate. On the other hand, Piloswine would certainly not over-centralize UU, and it would add diversity to that metagame. Yet it is banned because its stat distribution is not only different from its evolution but clearly inferior.

The Sneasel/Weavile debate is similar in some respects to the Piloswine debate but has a fundamentally different outcome. Weavile’s role in OU is that of high-coverage lead and revenge sweeper. Its somewhat spread-out movepool is augmented by its high attack and speed (120/125). Its counters are generally steel-types like Forretress, Scizor and Bronzong; Gyarados, Regirock, and Mach Punchers like Hitmonchan. On the other hand, Weavile’s coverage (including Dark, Ice, Fighting, and Flying moves) hits Psychic, Ghost, Grass, Flying, Dragon, Steel, Rock, Normal, Ice, Bug, Dark, Ground, and Fighting mono-types, while it has access to moves such as swords dance, ice shard and pursuit among other options.

Sneasel, a UU in the past, has about the same movepool and typing, so the argument of OU-lite could be made against it. On the other hand, arguments supporting it based around its unique abilities Keen Eyes/Inner Focus have also been made. However, its coverage of so many different types could give it the ability to destroy tons of UU pokemon and possibly over-centralize the metagame with its 95 attack, 115 speed, and new STAB on strong moves.


Whether or not Sneasel sends up UU, this should be the structure of arguments against NFE’s rather than hazy blanket rejections of “OU-lite”. The argument against UU’s should not be made on uniqueness, but rather on the pokemon’s ability to over-centralize the metagame. In the case of Haunter, Chansey, Kadabra, and perhaps Sneasel, this argument would apply, as it has done in the past in many other UU debates that see the shunting of pokemon to borderline (Crobat for example). On the other hand, other, less powerful NFE’s like Eevee and Dragonair would have a chance to serve on the teams of players who believe these pokemon have potential and would add diversity to UU.

I feel that the almost-uniform exclusion of NFE’s is tantamount to a rejection of new ideas and strategies beyond what is already known in UU. I have believed that UU is a place for creative trainers who want to think outside the box, not trainers who just wish to create a second elite tier of pokemon that excludes hundreds of others on technicalities. In order to better reflect the possibilities in the games we should have as much freedom as is possible without over-turning the metagame.

Finally, there are those who ask why bother fighting for this if when NFE’s are included nothing will change anyway in UU. My answer is that we cannot foresee all of the permutations of the future and that it is foolish to limit the outcomes based on biased prediction. If you think there would be no change, why not cease resisting the idea in principle and tolerate these pokemon? It would not affect you to say yes, and it would give Eevee aficionados like me some measure of joy.

TL; DR: We should debate UU NFE’s on their ability to decentralize the UU metagame rather than hazy warnings against an OU-lite that no one has ever seen exist. That is logical and fits the spirit of the UU game.
 
Here, for reference and convenience, I have compiled a list of all viable NFEs that differ from their evos.

Charmeleon (pure Fire)
Scyther (faster than Scizor, Bug/Flying)
Magmar (faster than Magmortar)
Electabuzz (faster than Electivire, Static)
Trapinch (Arena Trap, 3rd lowest speed stat)
Poliwhirl (Faster than Poliwrath and Politoed)
Clamperl (Deepseatooth and Deepseascale)
Vigoroth (Vital Spirit >>>>>Truant)
Pikachu (Light Ball)
Tangela (Faster than Tangrowth)
Anorith (Faster than Armaldo)
Surskit (Bug/Water, Swift Swim (viable on Rain Dance team w/CSpecs))
Pupitar (Rock/Ground, Shed Skin)
Shelgon (Pure Dragon, Rock Head, higher Defense than Salamence)
Dragonair (Pure Dragon, Shed Skin)
 
Firstly, to uniformly ban all NFE's from the UU game and then reexamine each one for entrance is an extreme measure that is likely unneeded.
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Unfortuantely at present I can see a very real need, if for nothing more than basic managability.

At present there are approx 140 pokemon currently designated as UU, that's more pokemon than Ubers, OU, and BL combined ...

The total number of pokemon currently stands at 493, current teir listings account for approx 270, which leaves approx 220 NFE's unaccounted for.

In the possibility of all of these pokemon being assimilated into UU, it would stand at almost 360 pokemon, and even if only half were included you would still be looking at 250.

Given that a Uu metagame is in its earliest stages of formation a line needs to be drawn somewhere, and excluding the majority of NFE's seems like a sensible place to begin.

In the case of Piloswine (a historical UU) Mamoswine is basically a stronger duplicate. On the other hand, Piloswine would certainly not over-centralize UU, and it would add diversity to that metagame.
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How exactly are you defining "historical UU"? Is the term applicable only to those pokemon that have seen evolutions recind their UU status, or anything that has ever been classified a UU pokemon?

In terms of adding diversity, there are already a number of UU pokemon that look as if they may become standards, which will ensure that there are large number of pokemon who only see limited useage. With 140 odd pokemon to choose from you cannot argue that diversity is not already available, yet the siginficant majority of these battlers would seem to choose not to take adavantage of this ...

I feel that the almost-uniform exclusion of NFE’s is tantamount to a rejection of new ideas and strategies beyond what is already known in UU.
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But there are so many new ideas and strategies that have yet to have been discovered in UU as it currently stands ...

We should debate UU NFE’s on their ability to decentralize the UU metagame rather than hazy warnings against an OU-lite that no one has ever seen exist.
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The UU metagame is itself incredibly hazy and almost non-existant at present ... even if there was a strong desire to debate NFE's on their ability to decentralise the metagame, I simply cannot see how we can possibly do this. At present there is still considerable debate going on as to tier placement of fully evolved pokemon, including Leafeon, Drapion, Steelix, even Jynx all of whom could dramatically shape the direction of UU ... until UU is itself, a more fully developed concept I think we are safer ignoring the bulk of the NFEs.

Yes its unfortunate that people might not be able to use their favourites for the time being, but really I cannot see how unbanning the bulk of NFE's will help until UU D/P is more fully established as a metagame.
 
I dunno about you guys, but Polytree's list looks pretty good for now. If any discrepancies come up at a later date we can remove the problem pokemon at that time.
 
Shelgon is as different from Salamence as Electabuzz is from Electivire. 100 Def and decent Attk make it somewhat of a bulky sweeper but it's a bit limited in that it lacks the SAttk to run a Specs or mixed set. Pure Dragon has some great resists too.
 
Skiddle
I dunno about you guys, but Polytree's list looks pretty good for now. If any discrepancies come up at a later date we can remove the problem pokemon at that time.
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As I previously stated I'm fine with Polytree's list apart from Porygon2.


I have no problem with 20 or so NFEs being allows in UU, I simply don't like the idea of it potentially turning into a dumping ground for hundreds ...
 
@ Polytree, that last list which include Gligar, Clops and Chansey etc. is a list which will NOT allowed right?
 
Consider that some now are arguing that Deoxys-S should have been allowed in the beginning of DP so that we would have quickly known its brokenness or not. Why not include NFE's in UU as early as possible to examine their impact on the metagame?

Shiny Oddish said:
Unfortuantely at present I can see a very real need, if for nothing more than basic manageability.

Manageability means that you feel that you currently can't keep track of all the threats in UU? You might be able to have this problem when the upper edge of UU overlaps greatly with BL as it does now, but how can one be confused as to what an NFE is?

At present there are approx 140 pokemon currently designated as UU, that's more pokemon than Ubers, OU, and BL combined ...

The total number of pokemon currently stands at 493, current tier listings account for approx 270, which leaves approx 220 NFE's unaccounted for.

In the possibility of all of these pokemon being assimilated into UU, it would stand at almost 360 pokemon, and even if only half were included you would still be looking at 250.

And why should that be a problem? As I remember, during ADV all NFE's were not even UU, but NU, and thus were UU legal. It's just that very few of them has analyses written. That version of the UU metagame were NFE's in general were legal save some exceptions was perfectly stable. I see no reason why the DP version of this metagame should not be equally stable. As you say, most players, apart from creative ones, will not use much of the diversity anyway, making the effective threats/upper crust easy to define.

------------------------

Given that a Uu metagame is in its earliest stages of formation a line needs to be drawn somewhere, and excluding the majority of NFE's seems like a sensible place to begin.



Yes its unfortunate that people might not be able to use their favourites for the time being, but really I cannot see how unbanning the bulk of NFE's will help until UU D/P is more fully established as a metagame.

Rather, I feel that allowing NFE's makes UU a more complete metagame from the beginning.
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After a metagame becomes established, it becomes harder to modify, as seen in the cases of Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, and perhaps even Deoxys-S (still banned) in ADV OU. If a metagame settles, and is then augmented by further additions, it eventually becomes the same metagame as it would have been if it had had those additions from the beginning.

I understand that there are still strategies to be found in UU given the current base of available pokemon. However, I feel that the opportunity to use NFE's in UU should be a part of the developing metagame so that if strategies arise now concerning a current NFE that strategy can be incorporated into the final state of UU.

Sidenote:
This list, by Polytree:

Gligar, Lickitung, Dusclops, Piloswine, Haunter, Kadabra, and Chansey

is simply a list of pokemon that do not fit certain criteria set by him in that same post regarding differences from final forms. I would from this list winnow everything save Lickitung, Piloswine, and maybe Gligar due to metagame destabilization.
 
Heh, there's an idea. Dump them in NU and move the overpowered ones to UU.

NU needs more diversity anyways and would surely benefit from things like Gastly.
 
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