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NFE Pokemon in UU
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
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I wish to discuss Phione.
I like Obi's stand to a certain degree. He says that if Pokemon X is in tier Y, then all of its pre-evolutions that do not have any advantages over it should also be considered to be in tier Y.
Now consider for a moment the Pokemon Volbeat. It can bred from Illumise but cannot evolve into Illumise. That means that Volbeat is NOT Illumise's pre-evolution Pokemon... they are separate Pokemon!
The exact same thing applies to Phione. It can be bred from Manaphy but it cannot evolve into Manaphy. That means that Phione is NOT Manaphy's pre-evolution!
And this would mean that Phione should not be considered to be in the same tier as Manaphy, as it's a completely unrelated Pokemon that cannot evolve into anything else, just like Girafarig and Tauros are.
I like Obi's stand to a certain degree. He says that if Pokemon X is in tier Y, then all of its pre-evolutions that do not have any advantages over it should also be considered to be in tier Y.
Now consider for a moment the Pokemon Volbeat. It can bred from Illumise but cannot evolve into Illumise. That means that Volbeat is NOT Illumise's pre-evolution Pokemon... they are separate Pokemon!
The exact same thing applies to Phione. It can be bred from Manaphy but it cannot evolve into Manaphy. That means that Phione is NOT Manaphy's pre-evolution!
And this would mean that Phione should not be considered to be in the same tier as Manaphy, as it's a completely unrelated Pokemon that cannot evolve into anything else, just like Girafarig and Tauros are.
theres so few people playing UU atm, i dont bother complaining about soemthing i disagree with, or i'll lose one of my few opponents
as shiny oddish points out at the end of his post here:
my points exactly.
Hmm... I don't really have anything to say to that one! I withdraw my objection. Do you take a similar stance on Combee (which would obviously be NU) because 1/8 of the time it cannot evolve into Vespiqueen?
Phione is a different species from Manaphy. It can never become Manaphy, no matter what gender it is (Male Combee is still a Combee, same pokedex number).
Additionally, Nidoran (male) can be produced as an offspring of a Nidoran (female). A precedent has already been set for parents to lay eggs of a different species.
EDIT: Lol, Rhydon in UU.
Additionally, Nidoran (male) can be produced as an offspring of a Nidoran (female). A precedent has already been set for parents to lay eggs of a different species.
If they had advantages, they would not all end up in a lower tier, would they? I think the phrase you're searching for is "notable differences."
EDIT: Lol, Rhydon in UU.
Well, there are two possible stands on Combee:
1) Since Combee has a chance to evolve into Vespiquen, it should be in the same tier as Vespiquen.
2) Since only female Combee have a chance to evolve into Vespiquen while male Combee don't, then female Combee should be in the same tier as Vespiquen, while male Combee should be in a tier of their own (presumably with Unown lol).
Oh, and I'd like to say that the Volbeat argument is due to Alienjesus... I plagiarised it because I liked it and I always thought that Phione should be UU because it is not a NFE.
1) Since Combee has a chance to evolve into Vespiquen, it should be in the same tier as Vespiquen.
2) Since only female Combee have a chance to evolve into Vespiquen while male Combee don't, then female Combee should be in the same tier as Vespiquen, while male Combee should be in a tier of their own (presumably with Unown lol).
Oh, and I'd like to say that the Volbeat argument is due to Alienjesus... I plagiarised it because I liked it and I always thought that Phione should be UU because it is not a NFE.
I don't see a need to make every Pokemon fit in a tier where it will see use. Some Pokemon, like Unown, male Combee, Delibird, Ditto, and others are just uninspiring garbage. They're really just there to inflate the Pokemon count as far as competitive battling is concerned.
cheers man, its nice to be recognised :)
i must say that combee is in the same books with me as wormadam and deoxys, in that imo, both combees are combees and thus the same tier, as are all forms of deoxys and wormadam. for this reason i disagree with doexys-S in OU too, but thats a different argument.
anyway, combee is even more obvious for this choice because his stats and movepool and whatnot are the same, they dont even vary. combee is just an NFE imo. same tier as vespi whatever the gender.
I honestly don't know why Combee is even brought up, since it is the very definition of Never Used. Choice Specs Modest Gust is nothing more than a spring-time breeze to anything not named Heracross or Breloom
Sounds like someone woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning.
We're not unreasonable, we only strive for better and more accurate definition of the game we play. Magikarp is a known NU, don't know why you'd try to be so sarcastic.
lmao, since when was vespiquen BL?
Though I have not posted I have been following this for some time and I do find it odd that Pokémon are judged not on their own power, but on the power of their most powerful evolution, shouldn’t each Pokémon’s tier be decided on how powerful it is? The magikarp/bagon/larvitar is OU due to them all having more powerful versions of them is stupid, someone try telling me luvdisk is better than kyorge in any way. Can’t think of one? Well I can say that kyorge is just a (much) better luvdisk so luvdisk is making NU like Ubers admittedly it lacks the auto rain ability, but that just makes it even more inferior. Just because a Pokémon is weaker in every way than another Pokémon doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have a tier to play in.
Forgive me if this is stupid, but why must te NFE follow it's evolution as opposed to being treated as a seperate Pokemon? To illustrate me point, we have powerful NFEs like Scyther and Sneasel and puny ones like Combee. Whether you put them with their evo or not, one will not make sense. Scyther is too tough for lower teirs but Magiarp in OU is absurd.
A possible solution would be to assign a tier to every Pokemon, but this would of course be time quite consuming.
An alternative would be to take the final stage as a reference point and to rank the NFE based of this. For example, a Pokemon that mirrors its evolved form, like Sneasel does then it would fall under the same tier, but an NFE which is obviously as inferiour as Metapod or Kricketot would be moved to a lower tier. An NFE that functions differently to its evolved form, like Scyther, should be treated with a fresh analysis.
Or am I totally off?
A possible solution would be to assign a tier to every Pokemon, but this would of course be time quite consuming.
An alternative would be to take the final stage as a reference point and to rank the NFE based of this. For example, a Pokemon that mirrors its evolved form, like Sneasel does then it would fall under the same tier, but an NFE which is obviously as inferiour as Metapod or Kricketot would be moved to a lower tier. An NFE that functions differently to its evolved form, like Scyther, should be treated with a fresh analysis.
Or am I totally off?
Luvdisc is faster than kyogre. ;)
The only reason [most] NFEs are [generally] considered the same tier as their fully evolved counterparts is because [some/many] UU players don't want to see OU-esque strategies being implemented in UU using NFEs. Whether or not that's a good reason to globally exclude many NFEs from UU or not, is what this thread is about.
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