Your generally right. If a NFE is different enough from it's evolution (Scyther,Vigoroth,Pikachu,Metapod even due to typing and trait) then it should be treated different as a standalone pokemon.
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NFE Pokemon in UU
- Thread starter Phuquoph
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Your generally right. If a NFE is different enough from it's evolution (Scyther,Vigoroth,Pikachu,Metapod even due to typing and trait) then it should be treated different as a standalone pokemon.
what about things like charmelon? it has a diferent, maybe better, type but everything else about it if worse then zard. however the lack of 4xSR weak means it can be played diferently. what do people think about this?
I would have no objections to Charmelon; like you mentioned it has a different maybe better typing and due to having that typing (absence of Flying inability to switch in on Earthquakes).
Wasn't Pupitar(as well as Duskull) considering to be an allowed NFE'd? I couldn't see that being allowed and Charmelon being barred because Pupitar and Duskull are played almost exclusively like their evolutionary forms (Pupitar using Dragon Dance and CB, and Duskull being used for stalling purposes, popular strategies used in the OU metagame.).
If speed is enough to differentiate a pokemon in the case of Magmar and Electabuzz(If allowed), I'd hold typing in that regards as well. (Though it's kinda odd seeing Charmelon allowed and not Quilava =/).
EDIT: I could see Charmelon using strategies in UU that Charizard would be hard pressed to use in OU; such as Full Fire Charizard (Sub/Fire Blast/Overheat/Sunnyday @Peteya/Salac) since you don't have to worry about Sand Storm or Hail). Even Dragon Dancing Charmelon could be effective in UU, Charizard is somewhat beyond this in OU because it's outclassed by other Dancers/Sweepers unless it's using Bellydrum.
how about something like surskit? it has diferent typeing and ability, but far less stats. and magikarp,diferent typeing but well... its a magikarp.
maybe we could have a new tier? for stuff like magikarp, unknown, febas, surskit, metapod, and other pathetic pokemon? maybe... IU (Imposible to Use)? i would play it just for novelty.
maybe we could have a new tier? for stuff like magikarp, unknown, febas, surskit, metapod, and other pathetic pokemon? maybe... IU (Imposible to Use)? i would play it just for novelty.
I could post a long, drawn out reasoning as to why I believe what I think should happen to NFE's in UU, but it's really quite simple. As some have stated, I believe that NFE's that play exactly like their evolved forms should not be allowed in OU.
This is simply because we are not allowing the fully-evolved forms into UU play, so why should we let things in that play exactly like them? I realize that they lose anywhere from a few to a decent amount of BST, but they are still much like their fully evolved forms, and that is powerful for UU.
However, I do believe that Pokémon that aren't much like their evolved forms should be allowed in UU play. I can't think of a better example then the mentioned Scyther at the moment, so I will bring that up. Scyther has different typing, base stats, and overall playstyle (barring one or so sets) than Scizor. This gives him a clear distinction from Scizor, and therefore I believe he should be allowed in UU play.
This is simply because we are not allowing the fully-evolved forms into UU play, so why should we let things in that play exactly like them? I realize that they lose anywhere from a few to a decent amount of BST, but they are still much like their fully evolved forms, and that is powerful for UU.
However, I do believe that Pokémon that aren't much like their evolved forms should be allowed in UU play. I can't think of a better example then the mentioned Scyther at the moment, so I will bring that up. Scyther has different typing, base stats, and overall playstyle (barring one or so sets) than Scizor. This gives him a clear distinction from Scizor, and therefore I believe he should be allowed in UU play.
Surskit, I believe edges out it's evolution when it comes to having just a slight more power when using Hydro Pump. A new tier isn't needed, just throw them in with the other NU's
Also regarding the other starters, I think the only other ones besides Charmelon that have consideration for being allowed are Grotle and Prinplup.
if it does then i agree it should be in UU (probably NU) but if it dosent what do we do? it wouls be a pokemon with a diferent type but no advanteges (exept reduced SR damage).
i know its not needed, but it would be kinda funny to have a tier for the worst pokemon.
yes, if we are only takeing pokemon that have advanteges then thats true.
ok
not all pokemon play like their prevoius evo's, and even if they did they play the stratergy worse so would not overpower UU, the exeption being things like kadabra and chansy, but they, and any other pokemon too powerfull for UU, would be banned to BL. many would be put into NU.
as i have said any NFE's too powerfull for UU will be sent straght to BL, clasifying a pokemon's tier should be done by how powerful IT is not its evo.
and movepool and sometimes a diferent type and sometimes a diferent ability. but i kinda see your point.
how would you deal with tyroge? or charmelon? or wynut? does wynut diserve to be baned even though most OU pokemon 1ko it? it ubers not for things that unbalence the OU metagame?
Exactly. And, either way, eric, how is Wynaut played any differently than Wobbufett?
This is what I am getting at. Pokémon such as Chansey, Wynaut, Haunter, and Kadabra play no differently than their fully evolved form. This is giving UU the same things that are in OU, give or take a few BST.
It can be tricky on how to approach making such a division between Pokémon as far as typing goes, like Charmeleon vs Charizard. Although similar, Charmeleon does not have flying STAB, and therefore can be differed from Charizard in some way, thus giving him a chance in UU.
Certainly is "an advantage"... even if Shed Skin Dragonair are allowed in UU it still is a bit of stretch to consider Charmeleon based on that alone...
Of course, "based on that alone", but I've outlined some movesets that Charmelon could use in UU that Charizard would be hard pressed to use in the OU metagame. Along with comparisons of other NFE's.
Yes, Charizard could use those movesets in UU better than Charmeleon however Charizard is not allowed in the UU Metagame. I'm sure Electbuzz,Magmar,Duskull,Pupitar, Dragonair,Poliwhorl,Seadra,Shelgon,Murkrow,Onix,Anorith's (there may be other's I have missed) evolutions all outclass them "overall" if they were to be allowed in UU, by that premise I would say that those I listed above and perhaps some I've missed to be banned from UU.
I only replied in response to your comment:
Overall the NFE's suggested are completely outclassed overall by their evolved counterparts if allowed in UU. Tyranitar could use in UU better than Pupitar, compared to if Pupitar was used in OU.
I didn't assume anything in regardes to "Pokemon is allowed in Tier X to prove that it ought to be allowed in Tier X". Merely I think it was a misinterpretation of words on both sides.
Why not consider it anyway? Certainly the removal of a flying type removes quite a few weaknesses...
If the concern is that no one wants to put in the effort to tier NFE's, but I'm sure that there are those who want NFE's enough to be willing to tier them. If the concern is that NFE's puff up someone's official, elegant-looking list of metagame pokemon, then the classifications of NFE tiers could be included in a separate list or available in a combined and uncombined version.
Does it matter whether or not a certain pokemon could pull off a moveset better than another? Someone has brought up the comparison of Luvdisc to Kyogre; there is almost nothing Luvdisc can do that Kyogre can't except perhaps Sweet Kiss and Attract, and Luvdisc's recommended sets are run better by Kyogre. Thus, Luvdisc is almost made redundant by Kyogre in the same way Charmeleon is almost made redundant by Charizard. If the argument against NFE's is based on redundant pokemon, there are plenty of pokemon made redundant by ubers or pokemon other than those they evolve into.
Thus, it seems arbitrary to remove NFE's based on "redundancy," especially when a great deal of NFE's have some small advantage on their evolved forms outside of possibly being able to compete in a lower tier if so allowed. To me, it seems more that the redundancy question is an excuse to clear NFE's from the tiers rather than a true argument.
Luvdisc has more Speed and a different (non-useless) ability. I don't believe there is any FE Pokemon that is strictly inferior to another.
Pupitar has the advantage of STAB Ground and an Electric immunity (and a different ability) over Tyranitar. Pupitar's Earthquake is actually stronger than Tyranitar's. That is an advantage.
Pupitar has the advantage of STAB Ground and an Electric immunity (and a different ability) over Tyranitar. Pupitar's Earthquake is actually stronger than Tyranitar's. That is an advantage.
A) Higher speed with dramatically lower stats in all other areas is itself a debatable difference that has been expressed in the Onix-Steelix controversy. It might even be argued that Swift Swim is simply an element of the speed advantage that Luvdisc has on Kyogre, and that perhaps there is even more redundancy between Kyogre and Luvdisc then between Onix and Steelix.
B) Floatzel has better stats than Luvdisc in all areas save the defenses. The differences between them are mainly Luvdisc's support and status altering moves. The first Luvdisc set on Smogon is a set done better by Floatzel, and Floatzel can easily pull off the second set with Swagger over Sweet Kiss.
It is actually irrelevent whether or not one personally believes that Luvdisc is outclassed by Floatzel or Kyogre. If one really wanted to see an example of a FE outclassed totally by other FE's, one would only have to look at Unown vs. Azelf; however, that is admittedly extreme.
The point of this is to show that differences between pokemon are arbitrary and opinion defined. Furthermore, it is foolish to ban pokemon for banning's sake, given that banning is the worst possible thing that Smogon can do to a pokemon. It seems to me that Evolutia's argument's above are an example of banning for its own sake, merely seeking criteria upon which to eliminate NFE's rather than understanding why they should be banned.
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Imagine a separate post below:
Ignoring those NFE's that hold some advantage over their evolved forms, whether it lies in stats (speed), typing or ability, should a pokemon be banned because it is totally outclassed by its evolved form? Why?
One problem with the redundancy question is that it ignores the fact that each pokemon is a distinct pokemon, even if the distinction lies solely in what the pokemon can KO.
Let us take the example of Sneasel and Weavile. Weavile totally outclasses Sneasel in everything except ability, but let us ignore that difference for the sake of this argument. Anything Sneasel learns will be in Weavile's moveset, so their movesets are identical.
However, what Sneasel can KO is difference from what Weavile can KO; in previous generations Sneasel performed on the UU level rather than the OU level. Thus, Sneasel may be balanced in UU, while Weavile had to be bumped to OU.
I would like to see Sneasel tiered separately from Weavile (though in BL rather than UU because it would unbalance the UU metagame).
It is easy to ban Sneasel because it is utterly outclassed by Weavile, its evolved form, and completely dodge the question of its tier. If only there were an FE that was completely outclassed by another FE...oh wait! There's Unown vs. Azelf!
Azelf, with levitate, hidden power, and superior stats, can pull off every set that Unown can run.
If redundancy is used to ban pokemon, shouldn't we ban Unown then rather than leave it in NU because Azelf could potentially pull off its moveset better? If we want to ban NFE's and decide to use redundancy, we would do better to ask ourselves why we want to ban UU's rather than keep on using this ridiculous argument.
B) Floatzel has better stats than Luvdisc in all areas save the defenses. The differences between them are mainly Luvdisc's support and status altering moves. The first Luvdisc set on Smogon is a set done better by Floatzel, and Floatzel can easily pull off the second set with Swagger over Sweet Kiss.
It is actually irrelevent whether or not one personally believes that Luvdisc is outclassed by Floatzel or Kyogre. If one really wanted to see an example of a FE outclassed totally by other FE's, one would only have to look at Unown vs. Azelf; however, that is admittedly extreme.
The point of this is to show that differences between pokemon are arbitrary and opinion defined. Furthermore, it is foolish to ban pokemon for banning's sake, given that banning is the worst possible thing that Smogon can do to a pokemon. It seems to me that Evolutia's argument's above are an example of banning for its own sake, merely seeking criteria upon which to eliminate NFE's rather than understanding why they should be banned.
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Imagine a separate post below:
Ignoring those NFE's that hold some advantage over their evolved forms, whether it lies in stats (speed), typing or ability, should a pokemon be banned because it is totally outclassed by its evolved form? Why?
One problem with the redundancy question is that it ignores the fact that each pokemon is a distinct pokemon, even if the distinction lies solely in what the pokemon can KO.
Let us take the example of Sneasel and Weavile. Weavile totally outclasses Sneasel in everything except ability, but let us ignore that difference for the sake of this argument. Anything Sneasel learns will be in Weavile's moveset, so their movesets are identical.
However, what Sneasel can KO is difference from what Weavile can KO; in previous generations Sneasel performed on the UU level rather than the OU level. Thus, Sneasel may be balanced in UU, while Weavile had to be bumped to OU.
I would like to see Sneasel tiered separately from Weavile (though in BL rather than UU because it would unbalance the UU metagame).
It is easy to ban Sneasel because it is utterly outclassed by Weavile, its evolved form, and completely dodge the question of its tier. If only there were an FE that was completely outclassed by another FE...oh wait! There's Unown vs. Azelf!
Azelf, with levitate, hidden power, and superior stats, can pull off every set that Unown can run.
If redundancy is used to ban pokemon, shouldn't we ban Unown then rather than leave it in NU because Azelf could potentially pull off its moveset better? If we want to ban NFE's and decide to use redundancy, we would do better to ask ourselves why we want to ban UU's rather than keep on using this ridiculous argument.
Perhaps the compromise should be such: those players who desire to use NFE's should use them within reason (meaning that those that over-centralize the metagame such as Blissey would remain banned to Borderline because of power, as all Borderline pokemon are). I can rest happily if this is the case. It would be nice to get back to a UU metagame like this...I would be on, and using my Shelgon team, but my ShoddyBattle has been really glitchy lately...so unless that is fixed, it would be Competitor for me.
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