NFEs

Things like Monferno and Gabite simply don't have the raw stats needed to compete.
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Raw stats aren't everything ... Gabite has a base stat total of 410, and Monferno = 405.

Both higher than Ariados who has BST of 390.

Yet in the past I've used said spider to take out half a OU team with a little luck, some prediction and super effective attacks: Gengar (BST 500), Azelf (BST 580) and Swampert (BST 535)

Admittedly given Ariados lower base stats it would be difficult to accomplish this on a regular basis, but still this little example hopefully demonstrates that base stats aren't always the be all and end all.

Just something to think about ...
 
We've determined (I think) that NFEs will be tested along with the UU test. They will be treated as the same as the BLs and will be banned / allowed within the process.
 
I think it was Obi who once posted something about how every NFE could be taken as different from their evolved forms, because lower speed could be taken as an advantage in Trick Room, and lower HP could be taken as an advantage over Leech Seed, and stuff. There's no reason to make those arguments, because truth be told, yea Munchlax is outspeeding Snorlax in Trick Room, but it's not at all 'better'. There's no actual reason to use Munchlax over Snorlax, because even though you can construct these 'advantages', I doubt they'll ever be useful in a competitive environment. So I'll propose this to the OP. Ladder with some NFE's, and show us that they're actually better than they're evolved forms. If you think they're good, they should win you battles, right?
 
Clamperl and Trapinch ARE listed as UU Pokemon rather than NFE Pokemon. Wynaut is considered "uber" in that it is also banned on Smogon's Standard Ladder. Everything else mentioned is strictly outclassed by their evolution, except possibly the ones that change typing between evolving, but most people don't feel that's enough to warrant having their own analysis and tiering. If you want to go ahead and do this analysis on the peer submissions, be my guest.
 
Missingno. Master said:
Woah, woah, woah, back it up there, man. That's actually not too bad an idea! A real bottom-of-the-barrel tier where the super-weak Pokemon like Weedle, Caterpie, Magikarp, Luvdisc, and the like can make their home... I can see such a tier being called... LU (Laughably Useless). And Kricketot, Metapod, Wurmple, Kakuna, Silcoon, Cascoon, Burmy, Feebas, Beldum, Unown.... Yes! Yes, that's a great idea! An idea worthy of me, I'd say. In fact, I don't know why I never thought of it before! A great, novelty tier for anything that can't learn TMs, plus Feebas and Luvdisc.....
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If you're serious about this... it might be fun to play it a couple of times, but it just doesn't deserve its own metagame. The low number of usable Pokemon would make it really overcentralized, the low number of learnable moves would make it predictable and kinda boring... it just makes no sense, really. Sorry.

ODDish said:
Raw stats aren't everything ... Gabite has a base stat total of 410, and Monferno = 405.

Both higher than Ariados who has BST of 390.

Yet in the past I've used said spider to take out half a OU team with a little luck, some prediction and super effective attacks: Gengar (BST 500), Azelf (BST 580) and Swampert (BST 535)

Admittedly given Ariados lower base stats it would be difficult to accomplish this on a regular basis, but still this little example hopefully demonstrates that base stats aren't always the be all and end all.

Just something to think about ...
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Ariados is nothing better than Gabite or Monferno, though. It's still a crappy Pokemon compared to the top standards or even the top UUs. A good player can probably score a couple of surprise kills with luck, prediction and super effective attacks with Gabite or Monferno too - saying you owned some opponent's Pokemon with Ariados doesn't automatically mean Ariados is good, or even decent.

Colonel M said:
We've determined (I think) that NFEs will be tested along with the UU test. They will be treated as the same as the BLs and will be banned / allowed within the process.
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Really? That's nice, I guess. Would that mean the same thing will be done whenever a NU metagame will start to develop?
 
You actually fail to address a fair number of UU viable NFEs (Sneasel, Tangela, Rhydon, Gligar, Electabuzz, Magmar, Aipom, Yanma and Chansey) while promoting use of things that have absolutely no chance in UU (Charmeleon, Surskit despite its awesome typing very cute sprite, Seadra, and Munchlax). Like others have said, it's already commonly accepted that NFEs will be tested with BLs to establish a stable UU tier. It's just a matter of time. iirc, testing will commence after the Lati twins, Evasion Clause, Manaphy, Species Clause, and OHKO clause. There's not much else to be achieved with this thread.
 
Deco said:
Ariados is ... [missing my point entirely] ...
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Perhaps you would like to re-read what I posted.

At no point did I make any claim as to the superiority of one pokemon over another, nor that Ariados was a "decent" pokemon.

I simply used this experience as an example to question petrei911's notion that just because something's base stat total is low it cannot compete, as other factors come into play/need to be considered.
 
Deco said:
Maybe, but personally, I would find it quite interesting to see which ones will be UU and which ones will be NU... Especially NU would become a completely different metagame with a large number of extra non-overpowered NFE Pokemon.
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There is no NU. As far as I know there are no plans to create NU anytime soon. IF NU were created then of course it would be necessary to define what NU is and which pokemon from NU would be banned from NU. In that case ybad from U would have to be specifically designated UU but since I don't see that happening anytime soon, NU isn't really part of the discussion.
 
There is no NU. As far as I know there are no plans to create NU anytime soon.
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The proposed restructure of UU is intedned to lead to the construction of an NU tier somewhere down the line ...
 
Perhaps so but with so many things to sort out, we could be at gen 5 by the time NU is the most important issue on the table.
 
ODDish said:
Perhaps you would like to re-read what I posted.

At no point did I make any claim as to the superiority of one pokemon over another, nor that Ariados was a "decent" pokemon.

I simply used this experience as an example to question petrei911's notion that just because something's base stat total is low it cannot compete, as other factors come into play/need to be considered.
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Yes, you can surprise someone with something like Ariados, but it isn't good enough to really affect the metagame. I never mentioned base stat total; in fact, Kadabra and Haunter have quite low BSTs. But they have stats in the right places to be threats. Gabite has 90 base attack and 82 base speed, with even worse defenses. Meanwhile, it has to compete with the likes of Feraligatr, Floatzel, Staraptor, Medicham, Raikou, Pinsir, since all of BL is going into UU, and even then it would have to compete with Swellow, Jynx, the Hitmons, Kabutops. All of them wholly outclass things like Gabite. My point was that NFEs are, for the most part, just bad.
 
outofdashdwz said:
You actually fail to address a fair number of UU viable NFEs (Sneasel, Tangela, Rhydon, Gligar, Electabuzz, Magmar, Aipom, Yanma and Chansey) while promoting use of things that have absolutely no chance in UU (Charmeleon, Surskit despite its awesome typing very cute sprite, Seadra, and Munchlax).
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Can we say OU Jr.? OU mini? OU fun size? Really, I believe one of the reasons such pokemon are absent from UU (putting lack of testing aside) is to prevent UU from become OU with weaker versions. Seriously, so many NFE's function exactly like their FE with worse stats and/or movepool. This does not make for an enjoyable metagame when you could be playing bigger and better.
 
I don't think the "OU-anything" argument really has much to do with it here.. I really doubt all of the unevolved forms will end up forcing everything else down a tier. Some of the unevolved forms may stand out in UU, sure, but that would probably bring some variety alongside fully-evolved forms that aren't in OU.

Basically, what it comes down to is that I think NFE's are fine to test, just like any other Pokemon.
 
I'm perfectly fine with NFEs being usable as long as they aren't too powerful for the tier. Most of them are outclassed anyway, so it's usually going to be moot except for a few exceptions and novelty.

OP, the problem with your post is that you are judging them by OU standards, which is a HUGE mistake. Talk about them in UU, where they are viable, and your points have more credibility. But using Munchlax over Snorlax on OU is simply silly.
 
Veedrock said:
Can we say OU Jr.? OU mini? OU fun size? Really, I believe one of the reasons such pokemon are absent from UU (putting lack of testing aside) is to prevent UU from become OU with weaker versions. Seriously, so many NFE's function exactly like their FE with worse stats and/or movepool. This does not make for an enjoyable metagame when you could be playing bigger and better.
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This is exactly what I addressed in my post. Allowing NFE's will NOT make it OU lite. Rhydon, Chansey, Kadabra, and Haunter are pretty much the only NFE's that are good enough to compete in UU. The others are generally outclassed by things already in UU, and they will certainly be outclassed once BL gets combined into UU. And it's not like it isn't easy to deal with those 4 anyways...

Rhydon--45 base sDef and double weakness to grass and water does not help him. No solid rock means he's taking the full 4x damage, and if you want sandstorm support, you'll have to carry laughably awful hippopotas.

Kadabra--40HP/30Df means priority attacks will maul it. 120 base satk and 105 base speed are threatening, yes, but manageable.

Haunter--45/45/55 defenses make it a bit of a glass cannon. It explodes only as hard as Electrode at best. 115 satk, 95 spd, and good immunities will help it, but priority is a big thorn in its side, as is anything with good sdef.

Chansey--250/5/105 defenses are actually comparable to Blissey. The difference in defense and HP is negligible, and the difference in sdef will make it a bit easier to take down. However, its 5/35 offences means that Chansey can only attack with Seismic Toss and status. Of course, we can always ban Chansey back to BL if it becomes too much, but I don't see this becoming better than Regice in the new UU.
 
This is so full of holes.

You make a few good points, but even those arnt anything new. We all know about Trapinch and Clamperl being good/great in Trick Room, but the former is easily disposed of after it takes out just a single Pokemon

There is no reason to ever use Seadra, Haunter, Machoke, or Golbat in a competetive team over their higher evolutions. Machamp also works perfectly fine in a Trick Room team, the only time its likely to get beaten is against another TR team with something alot slower(faster)

Shelgon and Dragonair have better typing (they do lose the ground immunity, resistences to Fight and Bug, plus the 4x grass resistence becomes 2x). The 4x Ice weakness and Rock weakness doesnt make up for that, nor does the extreme loss attack wise help.

Snorlax is slow enough to be better all around on a Trick Rook team.

On the whole, allowing these Pokemon into UU (or even some of them) would turn UU into OU-Lite (someone probably already mentioned that..)


I can see testing for a very small amount of the Pokemon you mentioned but your post has so many invalid points..
 
petrie911 said:
This is exactly what I addressed in my post. Allowing NFE's will NOT make it OU lite. Rhydon, Chansey, Kadabra, and Haunter are pretty much the only NFE's that are good enough to compete in UU. The others are generally outclassed by things already in UU, and they will certainly be outclassed once BL gets combined into UU. And it's not like it isn't easy to deal with those 4 anyways...
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Not only that, but as imperfectluck adressed once, Gligar is the perfect example of NFE that wouldn't make UU a OU-lite. Gliscor is a pokémon used defensively, while Gligar was used with a more offensive role in ADV UU. How can you say that they're the same pokémon, specially when the tiers they're being used are completely different?
 
Arael said:
Not only that, but as imperfectluck adressed once, Gligar is the perfect example of NFE that wouldn't make UU a OU-lite. Gliscor is a pokémon used defensively, while Gligar was used with a more offensive role in ADV UU. How can you say that they're the same pokémon, specially when the tiers they're being used are completely different?
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I dont see how a Pokemon performed last gen is in anyway relevent..Ok ya Gligar was a offensive Pokemon last gen but the metagame has changed enough that it might not be viable anymore.
 
ViVi said:
I dont see how a Pokemon performed last gen is in anyway relevent..Ok ya Gligar was a offensive Pokemon last gen but the metagame has changed enough that it might not be viable anymore.
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Exactly; it might not be viable anymore. But we'll never find out without trying it.

And that's exactly why it is a good idea to test NFEs in UU (not counting my 'it would be interesting'-argument because that's something personal). If, and only if, we find that all those NFE forms of OU Pokemon make UU OU-lite after testing them thoroughly, we can still ban them, but until then, I think it's out of the question.

Besides, seeing as how we will allow most current BL Pokemon in there as well, NFE Pokemon will likely not see much use in there anyway. Which, of course, will be different once we get to NU.
 
In reality, it doesn't matter if we throw all NFEs into UU that it will feel "OU-lite". First off, its to test how NFEs will do in a different environment and such. The second is with the inclusion of BL Pokemon, won't it feel "OU-lite" anyway? The point of the test altogether is to re-shape the metagame for the better. It's not like ALL NFEs will be allowed in UU after the test. I have a feeling some would be banned anyway (and no, I'm not going to waste time and naming them off).
 
Colonel M said:
In reality, it doesn't matter if we throw all NFEs into UU that it will feel "OU-lite". First off, its to test how NFEs will do in a different environment and such. The second is with the inclusion of BL Pokemon, won't it feel "OU-lite" anyway? The point of the test altogether is to re-shape the metagame for the better. It's not like ALL NFEs will be allowed in UU after the test. I have a feeling some would be banned anyway (and no, I'm not going to waste time and naming them off).
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Why would BLs make it seem like OU-lite? The BLs are a very different set of pokemon. For example, Steel and Dragon types are almost absent outside OU. That may attest to the overpoweredness of those types, but the fact of the matter is that without those two huge influences on the metagame, it will turn out VERY different.
 
petrie911 said:
Why would BLs make it seem like OU-lite? The BLs are a very different set of pokemon. For example, Steel and Dragon types are almost absent outside OU. That may attest to the overpoweredness of those types, but the fact of the matter is that without those two huge influences on the metagame, it will turn out VERY different.
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Weren't some of these Pokemon once viable in OU to begin with? Tangrowth? Possibly Rhyperior? Ludicolo? The list stretches a mile wide. Luckily there isn't a Dragon Pokemon that might enter here (unless Dragonite usage drops toward the floor).
 
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