Also I'll tag some QC members for you Calloflochie Kushalos Royalty kokoloko Ernesto radianthero156 Limitless Nidoking needs QC checks
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UU Nidoking
- Thread starter RotomPoison
- Start date
- Status
You have sheer force as the item on the LO set.
Fixed
Done
RotomPoison are you still writing this up? If you don't have time I could write up the rest or take over the analysis if needed.
Um for the life orb set why would you run timid/naive if you have no speed investment? Seems pretty strange to me :0
Yes, but I wanted to ask QC about removing the Scarf set and other things have happened, it will be done soon.
It has max Speed. Ernesto edit: It was supposed to be 252 Spe, I already fixed it so that you don't get run over by GPers o.O
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No mention of Sucker Punch? It can take care of weakened Jolteon, Darm, Victini, Scarf Chandelure, Starmie, Jirachi, Celebi, and more pokemons late game. Even SD/NP Mew.
Also when I said Jirachi and Celebi I meant when you are in KO range and can't use Sludge Wave
Here are some replays that I used Mixed Nidoking (Superpower / Sucker Punch / Earth Power / Sludge Wave) in, don't look too much into the team I was using Nido in my Dark Horse
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-139583047
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-139578889
Here's the set I use
Wallbreaker
########
name: Mixed
move 1: Sludge Wave
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Superpower / Megahorn
move 4: Sucker Punch / Megahorn
ability: Sheer Force
item: Life Orb
evs: 12 Atk / 236 SpA / 252 Spe OR 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
nature: Naughty / Lonely
First of all, I think Ice Beam is not needed, it never did anything besides hitting SpD Hippo, Krook and Flygon outspeed and KO. Ice Beam does shit to AV Goodra anyways, so why use it? Weakened Hippo can be nailed by E-Power
Sludge Wave and Earth power for STAB and powerful special moves, the next 2 moves are a choice of 3, Superpower, Sucker Punch, and Megahorn, the combination of Sucker Punch and any two does a lot vs. HO and wrecks stall but is limited to (Snorlax/Porygon2/Blissey if Megahorn, Mew if Superpower), while choosing both Megahorn and Superpower can decimate stall.
The EVs: Why does Nido even need a boosting Spe nature? Especially wallbreaker sets? Toxicroak loses to Nidoking anyways and Hera usually run Adamant and Nidoking resists both STAB (Not all sets run EQ), so why both? Not to mention running Naughty/Lonely is the most efficient nature on Nidoking. The first set just takes a tiny bit from SpA to Atk, enough to get weakened victini (I measure it by rocks + 3 spikes), while the other one is just enough to outspeed max speed neutral nature base 80s, rest in Atk, 40 Atk actually gives Nido a jump point.
I would also slash megahorn again, sucker punch, or superpower over Ice Beam since Ice Beam, as said, isn't too much of usefulness
Some relevant calcs:
Not QC just my opinion
Also when I said Jirachi and Celebi I meant when you are in KO range and can't use Sludge Wave
Here are some replays that I used Mixed Nidoking (Superpower / Sucker Punch / Earth Power / Sludge Wave) in, don't look too much into the team I was using Nido in my Dark Horse
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-139583047
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-139578889
Here's the set I use
Wallbreaker
########
name: Mixed
move 1: Sludge Wave
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Superpower / Megahorn
move 4: Sucker Punch / Megahorn
ability: Sheer Force
item: Life Orb
evs: 12 Atk / 236 SpA / 252 Spe OR 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
nature: Naughty / Lonely
First of all, I think Ice Beam is not needed, it never did anything besides hitting SpD Hippo, Krook and Flygon outspeed and KO. Ice Beam does shit to AV Goodra anyways, so why use it? Weakened Hippo can be nailed by E-Power
Sludge Wave and Earth power for STAB and powerful special moves, the next 2 moves are a choice of 3, Superpower, Sucker Punch, and Megahorn, the combination of Sucker Punch and any two does a lot vs. HO and wrecks stall but is limited to (Snorlax/Porygon2/Blissey if Megahorn, Mew if Superpower), while choosing both Megahorn and Superpower can decimate stall.
The EVs: Why does Nido even need a boosting Spe nature? Especially wallbreaker sets? Toxicroak loses to Nidoking anyways and Hera usually run Adamant and Nidoking resists both STAB (Not all sets run EQ), so why both? Not to mention running Naughty/Lonely is the most efficient nature on Nidoking. The first set just takes a tiny bit from SpA to Atk, enough to get weakened victini (I measure it by rocks + 3 spikes), while the other one is just enough to outspeed max speed neutral nature base 80s, rest in Atk, 40 Atk actually gives Nido a jump point.
I would also slash megahorn again, sucker punch, or superpower over Ice Beam since Ice Beam, as said, isn't too much of usefulness
Some relevant calcs:
12 Atk:
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 460-543 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 309-364 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 187-221 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 361-426 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 242-286 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk:
It can take care of umbreon w/ Superpower after rocks
40+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 190-226 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 40+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 127-151 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
^Guaranteed after rocks
40+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 263-309 (65 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 142-169 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- 82% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
^Guaranteed after rocks
Sucker Punch:
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 172-203 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 136-161 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 129-152 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 195-231 (74.7 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 460-543 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 309-364 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 187-221 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 361-426 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 242-286 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk:
It can take care of umbreon w/ Superpower after rocks
40+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 190-226 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 40+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 127-151 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
^Guaranteed after rocks
40+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 263-309 (65 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 142-169 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- 82% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
^Guaranteed after rocks
Sucker Punch:
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 172-203 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 136-161 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 129-152 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO
12+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 195-231 (74.7 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not QC just my opinion
I'm going to go through this 1 by 1. Also the reason this hasn't been updated often is because I'm stuck here until Monday (and I wanted opinions on removing Scarf.) I'll try to be as detailed as possible while I can.
It's extremely weak coming from uninvested Nidoking, and even though the last slot can be considered filler, Megahorn is more important as it allows you to actually break Mew (Megahorn 2HKOs, Sucker Punch can't, and it only works when they attack meaning you only get to attack once before taking a Psychic or Zen Headbutt. All of those Pokemon are relevant but I don't see a point in using Sucker Punch when all of them are OHKOd by a different move (besides bulky Starmie and SpDef Jirachi, Celebi, and Mew, who barely live a hit at all so they just need a bit of prior damage)
The opponent didn't play well at all in the first game. When you sent Nidoking out (which was very late in the game when it could have easily done work earlier on) the opponent just let Forretress die to an Earth Power (and it was obvious it would so there was no way he would get to Rapid Spin) instead of threatening you with Darmanitan, or better yet preserving his Milotic for Nidoking. There was nothing in this battle that a standard Nidoking could not have done that a mixed one could have so I don't really see your point.
The second game Mixed Nidoking did a lot of work, I admit. Though I don't know the EVs on his Porygon2 there was a chance Sludge Wave could do the same. Also the fact that you needed Rocks and 3 Spikes to do any meaningful damage makes me question the set even more. Considering you had all those hazards up you could have easily let something take a hit from Victini and force it out since hazards took away 50% of its health, and you also could have preserved your Starmie for it.
Ice Beam is needed for: Hydreigon, Honchkrow, Krookodile, Donphan, Amoonguss, Flygon, Gligar, Goodra, (non AV ones exist you know) Mega Aerodactyl, Haxorus, Crobat, Yanmega, Archeops, and Braviary if you really want to keep a lot of bad mons out. All of these take significantly more damage from Ice Beam and are not OHKOd by Sludge Wave.
"Sludge Wave and Earth Power for STAB and the next 2 moves are a choice of 3" - absolutely not.
"Sucker Punch does a lot vs HO and wrecks stall" - no, not at all. Sucker Punch doesn't singlehandedly wreck HO... and the same for "picking Megahorn and Superpower wreck stall" for reasons I will explain in reply to your calcs. I explained why it needs a +Speed nature in the analysis itself. I like using Modest Nidoking too but that was on Sticky Web. Modest is definitely viable, but it's in set details and not a slash for a reason. If I run a neutral Speed Nidoking I'm not running a +Atk nature either, so I don't know where you get the idea "Naughty/Lonely is the most efficient nature." Also again you measure killing something by getting up Rocks and 3 Spikes which is not going to happen consistently against a good player.
Those calcs are nice, except you need a +Atk nature for all of them which Nidoking can't afford to do. Also Mew and Umbreon lose with or without the Attack investment if they don't outspeed Nidoking which only Mew can, at which point Megahorn + Sucker Punch does not KO, and that's assuming they attack and not go for Soft-Boiled/Will-O/Defog. Point is: Superpower is completely inferior to Megahorn against Mew and Umbreon due to the Attack drop, regardless of the accuracy simply because if I had the choice between a 0% chance of winning and a 76% (or whatever the chance is) of winning, I'm taking the 76% chance.
Edit:
16:17RotomPoison !usage heracross spreads
16:17TIBot_ Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 36.657% | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 15.083% | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 9.694% | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 6.040% | Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 4.963% | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.853% | Other 23.710%
"Most Heracross are Adamant"
It's extremely weak coming from uninvested Nidoking, and even though the last slot can be considered filler, Megahorn is more important as it allows you to actually break Mew (Megahorn 2HKOs, Sucker Punch can't, and it only works when they attack meaning you only get to attack once before taking a Psychic or Zen Headbutt. All of those Pokemon are relevant but I don't see a point in using Sucker Punch when all of them are OHKOd by a different move (besides bulky Starmie and SpDef Jirachi, Celebi, and Mew, who barely live a hit at all so they just need a bit of prior damage)
The opponent didn't play well at all in the first game. When you sent Nidoking out (which was very late in the game when it could have easily done work earlier on) the opponent just let Forretress die to an Earth Power (and it was obvious it would so there was no way he would get to Rapid Spin) instead of threatening you with Darmanitan, or better yet preserving his Milotic for Nidoking. There was nothing in this battle that a standard Nidoking could not have done that a mixed one could have so I don't really see your point.
The second game Mixed Nidoking did a lot of work, I admit. Though I don't know the EVs on his Porygon2 there was a chance Sludge Wave could do the same. Also the fact that you needed Rocks and 3 Spikes to do any meaningful damage makes me question the set even more. Considering you had all those hazards up you could have easily let something take a hit from Victini and force it out since hazards took away 50% of its health, and you also could have preserved your Starmie for it.
Ice Beam is needed for: Hydreigon, Honchkrow, Krookodile, Donphan, Amoonguss, Flygon, Gligar, Goodra, (non AV ones exist you know) Mega Aerodactyl, Haxorus, Crobat, Yanmega, Archeops, and Braviary if you really want to keep a lot of bad mons out. All of these take significantly more damage from Ice Beam and are not OHKOd by Sludge Wave.
"Sludge Wave and Earth Power for STAB and the next 2 moves are a choice of 3" - absolutely not.
"Sucker Punch does a lot vs HO and wrecks stall" - no, not at all. Sucker Punch doesn't singlehandedly wreck HO... and the same for "picking Megahorn and Superpower wreck stall" for reasons I will explain in reply to your calcs. I explained why it needs a +Speed nature in the analysis itself. I like using Modest Nidoking too but that was on Sticky Web. Modest is definitely viable, but it's in set details and not a slash for a reason. If I run a neutral Speed Nidoking I'm not running a +Atk nature either, so I don't know where you get the idea "Naughty/Lonely is the most efficient nature." Also again you measure killing something by getting up Rocks and 3 Spikes which is not going to happen consistently against a good player.
Those calcs are nice, except you need a +Atk nature for all of them which Nidoking can't afford to do. Also Mew and Umbreon lose with or without the Attack investment if they don't outspeed Nidoking which only Mew can, at which point Megahorn + Sucker Punch does not KO, and that's assuming they attack and not go for Soft-Boiled/Will-O/Defog. Point is: Superpower is completely inferior to Megahorn against Mew and Umbreon due to the Attack drop, regardless of the accuracy simply because if I had the choice between a 0% chance of winning and a 76% (or whatever the chance is) of winning, I'm taking the 76% chance.
Edit:
16:17RotomPoison !usage heracross spreads
16:17TIBot_ Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 36.657% | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 15.083% | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 9.694% | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 6.040% | Jolly:0/252/4/0/0/252 4.963% | Jolly:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.853% | Other 23.710%
"Most Heracross are Adamant"
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Why do people use special Nidoking? Is it variety? Power? I want to know :I
Ok after a bunch of things going wrong this has been written and ready for QC 3/3
Edit: Yes I know C+C is messed up fixing it now
Ok fixed, ready for 3/3
Edit: Yes I know C+C is messed up fixing it now
Ok fixed, ready for 3/3
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-Remove mentions of Pokemon that have been booted, that includes Mew, Heracross and Slowbro and change the main set to have Superpower over Megahorn in order to hit blissey.
-Mention Blissey in C&C
-Remove that Scarf hide tag thing and just elaborate on it in OO
-Change Azelf and Kyurem to Victini and Hydra in revenge killers and just keep the bit in about switching in being risky.
-And yeah basically just rework the analysis for Superpower being in place of Megahorn
Once that is done tag me and i'll give QC 3/3
-Mention Blissey in C&C
-Remove that Scarf hide tag thing and just elaborate on it in OO
-Change Azelf and Kyurem to Victini and Hydra in revenge killers and just keep the bit in about switching in being risky.
-And yeah basically just rework the analysis for Superpower being in place of Megahorn
Once that is done tag me and i'll give QC 3/3
Done Calloflochie
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