Ninetales (Gen 4, full revamp)

[Heysup]

heysup do you think Hypnosis is worth using or not? For some reason you are still ranting about how much better hp rock is despite the fact that nobody uses it, and about how shitty Hypnosis is (even though it is clearly not a bad move in uu) but you aren't taking the next step and proposing a change. Youre just arguing for the sake of arguing and it is dragging this entire thread down. Do you want hypnosis/hp rock as the option there like everyone else does or just hp rock? I know how much you want the last word to gain some personal victory, so can you please just suggest a change if you think something needs to be added so that we can get on with this thread? Otherwise, why are you still persisting with this retarded argument that you agree with me on :(

You are also seriously underestimating hypnosis, that disappoints me =\. With 100 base speed and stellar special defense, 9tails makes a decent user of the move tbqh...especially when you consider that a free NP is much better than just praying that they switch =\

Try reading this post:

move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hidden Power Rock / Hypnosis

Firstly, Fire Blast has better damage per attack, even when factoring in misses, not to mention it gets important KOes. Flamethrower should be a secondary option for accuracy loving people. Its also VERY contradictory to have Flamethrower on for accuracy, when Hypnosis is suggested later on....

Secondly, I think we argued enough that Hidden Power Rock was more viable because of the perfect coverage, and being the more reliable option, when Hypnosis is a secondary option due to its bad accuracy.

Its not so much the order, but how the analysis portrays it, mainly the contractiction, when it says something to the effect of "flamethrower is more accurate", and Hypnosis is there. It also says you can more reliably get off a Nasty Plot with Hypnosis, but thats 60% chance...thats not more reliable at all.

I just want to get this right >_<.

I didnt propose a change? Please, stop trying to make it look like im just derailing the thread with your false claims. I even PM'd you the damned change suggestion, asking if you agreed. Low blow attempt?

This post points out its not so much the "order", but how the analysis "portrays" the options. FFS. Hypnosis should not be portrayed as the primary option, it should be portrayed as a secondary option "if you have fire-types covered well, Hypnosis can be useful blah blah... as a sleep move from 100 Speed". On a Sweeper set, not being walled is THE most important thing, im sure you will agree. Hypnosis is viable, but should be refered to as an alternative to HP Rock. As i said in my post that you happened to miss...

Houndoom?

Why are you arguing on and on and on about the order of the slashes on a set, something a moderator has told you IN THIS THREAD doesn't matter at all?

Houndoom does not have Fire / Rock / Grass coverage, or 100 Speed last I checked (Fire / Dark / Fighting is great too, but its not as good SE Coverage).

Anyway, I dont want to quote that post again, but I guess I have to since people make it a habit of falsly acusing me of arguing about the "order of slashes".

Its not so much the order, but how the analysis portrays it

Understand what im saying?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Understand what im saying?

Considering you just said the same exact thing that I have been saying this whole time, yes. As long as the speed drop from hp rock and the accuracy of Hypnosis are mentioned (which he did a nice job of), as well as both of their benefits, I agree that the set doesn't have to be changed anymore. I'm glad you finally see eye-to-eye with me. :)

[SET]
name: Choice Specs

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>A Choice Specs set gives Ninetales a needed boost to special attack without the risk involved with setting up Nasty Plot, and in addition to increasing type coverage. Overheat is a preferable choice if you like to hit and run, while Fire Blast can be used continuously and can be exploited late game. Energy Ball deals with bulky waters and rock types. Extrasensory helps against Fighting-types that resist Fire moves, such as Blaziken and Hariyama, to hit for super effective damage.

<p>What distinguishes Ninetales from other Fire-Types in UU(removed comma) is access to a Grass move (other than Solarbeam), which grants the freedom to choose a different Hidden Power type and further coverage. This distinct advantage is shared only with higher tier Pokemon like Infernape (Grass Knot) and consequentially carves a niche for Ninetales in UU. Although, Houndoom will often outdamage Energy Ball with STAB Dark Pulse against Water-types, due to higher special attack, it still does not have the same diversity as Ninetales.</p>

<p>The EVs given to this set give Ninetales just enough speed to outpace base 95 Pokemon, since it will no longer tie other base 100 due to the Speed drop caused by Hidden Power Rock. In UU, the only other base 100 speed Pokemon that could potentially out-speed you with Hidden Power Rock are other Fire-Types and Shaymin. The extra EVs were placed in HP, though they may be placed back into speed if opposing Ninetales are a concern. You could go with a basic 252 SpA / 252 Speed spread if you are not planning to use Hidden Power Rock, to tie with other base 100. </p>

<p> Since this set often requires switching out, a reliable bulky water with access to a recovery move, such as Milotic and Slowbro work great alongside Ninetales. (space) A Shaymin working with Ninetales will incur frequent hits from Ninetales constantly switching out, so it is recommended that Shaymin carries Rest to heal off the damage.</p>

Ok, just had a few more minor nitpicks here.

I also wanted to compliment you, this version is a significant improvement over the original post. At least all that arguing brought something good in the end!

 

[Heysup]

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hypnosis / Hidden Power Rock
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Speed

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Ninetales has an adequate Special Attack stat, but after a Nasty Plot boost Ninetales will reach 522 Special Attack, which is high enough to deal serious damage. This set is very simple to use, start by sending Ninetales in on a Pokemon it forces out, such as Roserade or a Choiced Fire-type attack, and proceed to Nasty Plot on the switch. If you opt for Hypnosis however, you may put a slower enemy or a counter to sleep,(removed words) and then proceed to use Nasty Plot. The shaky accuracy of Hypnosis can be troublesome however, so Hidden Power Rock can be an alternative to increase your coverage, stopping other Fire-types with Flash Fire from forcing you out, and furthering your chances to pull off a sweep. Without Hypnosis however, you will have a challenging task trying to threaten opponents with Ninetales merely decent Special Attack, to score Nasty Plot boosts on predicted switches. Flamethrower is a solid choice as a STAB move, because Ninetales cannot afford to miss, however, Fire Blast is preferred, as it adds extra power to guarantee a OHKO on standard Registeel with Stealth Rock in play. Flamethrower will deal 87.36% - 102.75% to standard Registeel, leaving the potential to miss a OHKO. Energy Ball deals with Water and Rock-types.</p>

<p>Life Orb is generally the best item option to give Ninetales extra power. It allows you to 2HKO both Probopass and Hypno with Fire Blast. Leftovers is a generic option to replenish HP loss from entry hazards and improve survivability. If you choose to use Hidden Power Rock instead of Hypnosis, Life Orb will be a better option, because you will force fewer switches if you receive Leftovers recovery when switching into entry hazards and you reveal that you are not carrying Choice Specs right away.</p>

Thats mainly what I was referring to.

Hynosis should not be suggested to "rely" on with 60 accuracy, but used as an option to sleep counters on the switch.

Also, Fire Blast is the more preferred move for OHKOing Registeel, and you still had Flamethrower as "preferred", so i switched the words around a bit.

Nice improvements in general, however.

 

[franky]

Thats mainly what I was referring to.

Hynosis should not be suggested to "rely" on with 60 accuracy, but used as an option to sleep counters on the switch.

Also, Fire Blast is the more preferred move for OHKOing Registeel, and you still had Flamethrower as "preferred", so i switched the words around a bit.

Nice improvements in general, however.

Took a couple of suggestions thanks.

 

[CREAM_93]

another mention with hypnosis here especially on the dual status set, why not mention gravity in the team options section? This set was my favourite ninetales set back in the day but with platinum came crappy hypnosis accuracy. Gravity would boost hypnosis, fire blast and will-o-wisp to full accuracy.

 

[franky]

another mention with hypnosis here especially on the dual status set, why not mention gravity in the team options section? This set was my favourite ninetales set back in the day but with platinum came crappy hypnosis accuracy. Gravity would boost hypnosis, fire blast and will-o-wisp to full accuracy.

I might mention it but on the second set where all the accuracy is really shakey, I placed the item slot as Wide Lens. It used to be Wide Lens / Leftovers but Wide Lens is a must here due to the pathetic accuracy of the entire set.

 

[Zoro]

Dunno if you just forgot it but this paragraph on the Choice Specs set:

<p> Since this set often requires switching out, a reliable bulky water with access to a recovery move, such as Milotic and Slowbro work great alongside Ninetales.A Shaymin working with Ninetales will incur frequent hits from Ninetales constantly switching out, so it is recommended that Shaymin carries Rest to heal off the damage.</p>
But this is written twice on the set comments so you might remove one. >.<

 

[franky]

Super-bump. I did last minute revise, this analysis is done. Any glaring errors should be gladly pointed.

 

[franky]

Updated.

 

[Snorlaxe]

I'm bumping this because the analysis itself is well done and very near completion, but this hasn't been touched upon in almost half a year. This should probably get done and go on site sooner rather than later, because otherwise its just going to rot.

 

[Flora]

I hope "bumping" second page analyzes isn't bad.

Errors and comments.

Hide

<p>Ninetales has an adequate Special Attack stat, but after a Nasty Plot boost Ninetales will reach 522 Special Attack, which is high enough to deal serious damage. This set is very simple to use; (semi-colon instead of comma) start by sending Ninetales in on a Pokemon it forces out, such as Steelix or a Choiced Fire-type attack, and proceed to Nasty Plot on the switch. If you opt for Hypnosis however, you may put a slower enemy or a counter to sleep, and then proceed to use Nasty Plot. The accuracy of Hypnosis can be troublesome, so Hidden Power Rock can be an alternative to increase your coverage, stopping other Fire-types with Flash Fire from forcing you out, and furthering your chances to pull off a sweep. Without Hypnosis however, you will have a challenging task trying to threaten opponents with Ninetale's adequate Special Attack (remove comma) and to score Nasty Plot boosts on predicted switches. Flamethrower is a solid choice as a STAB move, because Ninetales cannot afford to miss; (semi-colon) however, Fire Blast is preferred, as it adds extra power to guarantee a OHKO on standard Registeel with Stealth Rock in play. Flamethrower will deal 87.36% - 102.75% to standard Registeel, leaving the potential to miss a OHKO. Energy Ball deals with Water and Rock-types.</p>

It's basically a run-on sentence with a comma, so a semi-colon is needed.

The "to score Nasty Plot..." area felt like a sentence of its own and thus needed to be connected. The comma failed to do that in this case, so removing that and putting in "and" will make it connective.

Run-on sentence with the comma usage. It needs a semi-colon.

<p>Ninetales works great alongside Roserade. Roserade is neutral to Ground attacks but it can still come in on Water attacks. With Roserade in, it can threaten bulky Waters with a STAB Grass attack and force them to switch out. Defensively, bulky Waters are peachy with Ninetales. Bulky Waters like Slowbro, Milotic, and Mantine generally manage attacks launched at Ninetales well. They are capable of handling Altaria and Camerupt, (comma) which could be a bothersome for Ninetales.</p>

Probably want Venusaur > Roserade now.

The added words avoid the "same word in two sentences near each other" thing.

"Waters" needs its capitalization.

Remove the last sentence's "Bulky Waters" to avoid the dull repetition.

There was a period instead of a comma at the end sentence.

<p>This set is not as threatening as the previous set but it could still be useful to spread status. The set is quite simple but requires prediction to pull off double status. You put an opponent to sleep with Hypnosis and use Will-O-Wisp on physical attackers to burn them. Overheat is more preferred for extra damage because you will be switching out most of the time, while Fire Blast is another option if you think Ninetales will hang around for a while and eventually be a late game sweeper for you. Energy Ball provides extra coverage to harm Rock and Water-types. Wide Lens is required for this set to boost the pitiful accuracy of Hypnosis, Will-O-Wisp and Fire Blast. Overheat has a (remove) high accuracy and it will hit most of the time.</p>

With "a" in the last sentence, it sounds odd. Its removal would do well here.

<p>Like mentioned in the other set, Roserade make an excellent switch-in after Ninetales, since it wield the ability Natural Cure and won't mind Thunder Waves from the opponents attempting to cripple Ninetales. Defensively, bulky Waters can handle Arcanine and other Fire-types that can easily switch in on a Will-O-Wisp, and attempt to scare away Ninetales. Arcanine has the ability Flash Fire and can switch in on your Fire attacks on this set. Slowbro and Milotic are the perfect candidates to handle Arcanine because they can take the physical attacks thrown at them and Arcanine has trouble dealing with bulky Waters.</p>

With Roserade gone, the part in blue bold probably wants a whole revamp or something.

The added "the" in the last sentence is because the sentence sounded dull without it.

I think the others are logical.

<p>A Choice Specs set gives Ninetales a needed boost to special (remove) attack without the risk involved with setting up Nasty Plot, and in addition to increasing type coverage. Overheat is a preferable choice if you like to hit and run, while Fire Blast can be used continuously and can be exploited late game. Energy Ball deals with bulky Waters and Rock-types. Extrasensory helps against Fighting-types that resist Fire moves, such as Blaziken and Hariyama, to hit for super effective damage (remove this part).</p>

Adding in the "special" makes the sentence more confusing. Just "attack" is good already.

Capitalization problems and a missing hyphen for the types.

The "to hit for super effective damage" is pretty ugly and I'd just remove that part.

<p>What distinguishes Ninetales from other Fire-types in UU is access to a Grass move (other than Solarbeam), which grants the freedom to choose a different Hidden Power type and further coverage. This distinct advantage is shared only with higher tier Pokemon like Infernape (Grass Knot) and consequentially carves a niche for Ninetales in UU. Although, Houndoom will often overpower Energy Ball with STAB Dark Pulse against Water-types, due to higher Special Attack, it still does not have the same diversity as Ninetales.</p>

Capitalization problems.

"outdamage" isn't a word (maybe it's fine with a hyphen) and needs to change to another word such as "overpower" or something.

<p>The EVs given to this set give Ninetales just enough Speed to outpace base 95 Pokemon, since it will no longer tie with other base 100 due to the Speed drop caused by Hidden Power Rock. In UU, the only other base 100 Speed Pokemon that could potentially outspeed you with Hidden Power Rock are other Fire-types and Shaymin. The extra EVs were placed in HP, though they may be placed back into Speed if opposing Ninetales are a concern. You could go with a basic 252 SpA / 252 Speed spread if you are not planning to use Hidden Power Rock, so you can (add) to (remove) tie with other base 100.</p>

Stats needs its capitalization.

Added "with" makes the sentence have better flow.

No hyphen needed for "outspeed" since it's generally a term used in Pokemon.

Just changing the wording in the last sentence, but it isn't quite necessary. However, I think it makes the sentence easier to read.

<p>Since this set often requires switching out, a reliable bulky Water with access to a recovery move, such as Milotic or Slowbro, (comma) work great alongside Ninetales. A Roserade working with Ninetales will incur frequent hits from Ninetales constantly switching out, so it is recommended that Shaymin carries Rest or Synthesis to heal off the damage.</p>

Same stuff mentioned from above really. Some wording changes will have to be made since the two are gone.

<p>Ninetales is a unique Pokemon that has access to both Hypnosis and Nasty Plot who can sleep induce a Pokemon and proceed to use Nasty Plot (remove this part). Ninetales is a great asset to any team because it can come in on Fire-type attacks, spread status, (comma) and still be a fearsome sweeper. Ninetales potential to hurt walls is helped by entry hazards such as Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. With Toxic Spikes on the field, it has a chance to beat its counters and provide extra damage at the end of every turn. Ninetales scares away common Steel-types in UU today such as Steelix and Registeel, which allow you to use Hypnosis or Nasty Plot; (semi-colon instead of comma) either way you have the upper hand if you switch in on them.</p>

"Pokemon" need's its capitalization.

The blue part is just unnecessary and wants removal.

Comma is needed before the "and".

The wording with the "fearsome" part was odd, so I changed it a little bit.

Semi-colon is needed or else that is a run-on.

<p>The Pokemon that are a bothersome to Ninetales are Flash Fire users such as Arcanine and Houndoom who can outpace (not true) Ninetales and will usually force Ninetales to switch out. An appropriate bulky Water is required to frighten both Houndoom and Arcanine and the perfect candidate that works great alongside Ninetales is Milotic. Milotic can aid Ninetales because it can take constant hits directed at them and can easily replenish its HP with Recover. Ninetales also has a hard time dealing with Chansey and Clefable who invest heavily in both HP and Special Defense. Hariyama works great alongside Ninetales who can really threaten opposing Clefable and Chansey. With its titanic HP it can take a number of Seismic Toss and Hariyama usually doesn’t mind switching in on status because of the ability Guts. Ninetales has trouble dealing damage to bulky Waters without a Nasty Plot. Roserade can take attacks from bulky Waters and attempt to scare them away with a STAB Grass move. A common strategy for Ninetales – which separates it from other Fire-types in UU - (hyphen to end it) is to use Hypnosis on a counter or a slower Pokemon and proceed to use Nasty Plot. Ninetales is a unique Pokemon and is an asset to any team.</p>

The first sentence's last part probably wants to change to this: "... and Houndoom who will usually force Ninetales out".

There's lots of other changes that I think are logical enough (so this post doesn't get too big).

<p>Dark Pulse has more neutral coverage than Extrasensory, but there is never much reason to use it when it never surpasses the damage output of STAB Fire Blast or Overheat. Grudge can be helpful to let a team member set up if you can strip away all the PP of an opponent's main attacking move. For example, you can deprive Suicune of Surf or remove all of Blissey's Seismic Tosses. Confuse Ray and Safeguard are also available, but are poor choices when compared to its (can be he/she so no "her" and also there were references to "it" instead of "her" in analysis) other options. Ninetales can use Calm Mind but usually Nasty Plot will be more effective. Substitute is another option which allows you to avoid Toxic users such as Moltres and Clefable. If you are planning to use Ninetales in OU it can come in on standard Blissey and beat it one on one. (remove this part; it's not true as well)</p>

You can probably replace "Suicune" with "Milotic" and "Blissey" with "Chansey".

<p>While Ninetales sits uncomfortably in the UU tier crowded with many other Fire-types, failing to impress with a somewhat meek Special Attack attribute, it finds redeeming value with one crucial aspect. Ninetales has a pretty unique movepool (no hyphen) that notably includes Hypnosis, Nasty Plot, and Energy Ball for a type that notoriously has restricted movepools. Ninetales may be a little unusual, but it still proves to be an effective special sweeper in UU nevertheless.</p>

<p>In UU, (would just remove this part) Chansey is a bane to Ninetales like any other special attacker. In addition to doing paltry damage against it, attempts to status Chansey are thwarted by Natural Cure. Prospects against enemy Clefable are similarly grim, as it has an innumerable amount of status options it can use to quickly put Ninetales out of commission. Without a Nasty Plot boost, Altaria also stops it with its incredible bulk, as Hidden Power Rock will deal around 73.29% - 86.30% on 4 HP / 0 Special Defense Altaria with Stealth Rock in play after a Nasty Plot boost.</p>

Since this is basically a Ninetales in UU analysis, I don't think the "In UU" part is necessary.

<p>In general, Ninetales is pretty vulnerable to bulkier Water-types (Slowbro, Lanturn, Mantine, etc), unless it gets a much needed Nasty Plot, as non-STAB Energy Ball will do less than you think even when it is super effective. Sleep Talk (no hyphen) Milotic could especially be devastating to Ninetales if it switched in on a predicted Hypnosis.</p>

Capitalization and hyphen removal.

<p>Without Hidden Power Rock, Ninetales can give opposing Fire-types an easy time to switch in on. Houndoom, Blaziken, and Arcanine all will have little trouble, while Sub-Roost Moltres will be a complete nightmare. Mixed Typhlosion (remove comma) can force out or faint Ninetales in most cases if it has Earthquake. Without Extrasensory, Hariyama would also stop Ninetales easily.</p>

A random comma was there that needed removal.