No one will ever guess what this thread holds....

[Dormin]

And with that enticing title, welcome to the past. Back when Garchomp, Porygon-z, and the original bulkygyara were the cream of the crop. Back when no one would even fathom the thought of a suicide lead. Back when........anything was possible.

Anyway, the team you are about to see is an old team of my friend Thunderhorse. Way back in 2007, we exchanged teams to critique each other and make them better, and this is his oldoldold Bellyzard team. I always felt that the thought which went into this team was amazing, and how the structure itself set it up for a potential B-zard sweep. Now, I realize most to all will think Bellyzard in this day and age in OU is crazy--read: Priority is rampant, and Stealth rock is...well...omnipotent.

The task I pose to you, team raters, is to try and help me revamp this team to be playable in the platinum metagame. My motivation in doing this is simply to spicen up the game a little using an unexpected threat, and help my gameplay by playtesting this hard to use team. Anything goes with your suggestions except, of course, removing the team's theme of having and helping Bellyzard to sweep (though, of course, there should be alternate win conditions). Sorry for this being tl;dr--here it is.

THE TEAM (at a glance)

REVAMP THOUGHTS....

IN DEPTH REVAMP

Starmie @ Life Orb
Timid
Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Rapid Spin

I love to start off battles offensively, and this lead has the upside of keeping rocks off the field. Comes out on top against pretty much every lead out there, but its primary duty is Rapid Spin. It is vital that this occurs, so that the rest of the team can go to work. I feel that Thunderbolt will work out better than Grass Knot, especially because Hydro Pump is a clean 2hko on Swampert, and I have enough health for two Hydro Pumps and a Rapid Spin even after taking an Earthquake from the standard lead. Thunderbolt helps for late game sweeping, Gyarados, and the rare Empoleon lead.

Uxie @ Light Clay
Impish
Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/ 180 Def/ 76 Spe
-Light Screen
-Reflect
-Memento
-Sunny Day

Hands down the BEST set-up for Charizard ever. The primary consternation on this set for me is the last move. Right now, Sunny Day seems like the best choice to remove Sand from hindering Charizard's sweep, especially because Tyranitar loves to switch in to Uxie, only to realize it can't 2HKO with CB Crunch with Reflect in place O_O. However, U-turn allows me to scout and not be total Taunt bait. This used to be a sub-passing Jolteon, but with Dualscreens Charizard is unable to be KOed by a CBScizor's Bullet Punch at 25% health--pure awesome. Even an Adamant, Life Orb Lucario's Extremespeed has about a 50-50 chance of KOing. Plus Uxie adds a welcome ground immunity for when I'm not ready to switch in Charizard. With this new addition I question whether I might be able to use Magnezone's spot to better use.

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Jolly
Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Waterfall
-Ice Fang/Bounce
-Stone Edge

Proposed by Stallion, Gyarados adds a second win condition should Charizard fall through. Also takes advantage of the lack of rocks to dominate. Jolly over Adamant because I am a speed freak and nothing is more gay than a sweep stopped by Jolteon or a Scarftran explosion. Still testing for Bounce--might put it over Ice Fang for added sweep potential. I'm pretty wary of two turn moves though.

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Jolly
Serene Grace
EVs: 80 HP, 252 Atk, 176 Spe
-Iron Head
-Zen Headbutt
-Stealth Rock
-U-turn

Simply put: insurance. Jirachi helps check so many threats that could sweep this team in a second, especially DDmence. Plus there is always the option to try a last-ditch hax sweep with either Zen Headbutt or Iron Head. U-turn helps keep the momentum of the battle in my favor, which is vital for this team. VITAL. Needed Stealth Rock for.......well everyone needs it. It helps weaken Gyarados and Salamence so that they can't intimidate stall Charizard.

Roserade @ Expert Belt
Timid
Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Leaf Storm
-HP Fire
-Toxic Spikes
-Sleep Powder

My Toxic Spiker and counter to Suicune. Expert Belt gives it that extra oomph, since I don't really benefit from Focus Sash with Roserade not being in the lead position. Toxic Spikes is vital for weakening bulky waters just enough for a Charizard/Gyarados sweep, especially with both of them utilizing a Jolly nature.

Charizard @ Salac Berry
Jolly
Blaze
EVs: 4 Def, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
-Belly Drum
-Fire Punch
-Earthquake
-Substitute

And finally, the centerpiece of this team. Standard Bellyzard, and still as deadly as ever. In today's metagame, a bellyzard in OU is never considered as a potential threat, especially with people sitting snugly behind their priority moves and stealth rock. This team's primary goal is to prevent and keep Rocks off the field, which is effectively accomplished by Roserade and Tentacruel. As for priority moves, Dualscreens are the primary means to combat them. A max attack Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard only manages 22.64% - 26.69%with a reflect up. Now tell me with a straight face that that isn't amazing, especially because of the fact that most Mamoswine are Jolly with a Life Orb. Similarly, the everpresent Scizor scores 16.55% - 19.59% with a max attack Choice Band Bullet Punch. Lucario has the best shot at a KO at 25%, with a 350 Atk Life Orb Extremespeed doing 22.64% - 26.69%. Needless to say, Reflect really unlocks the team sweeping potential of a set-up Bellyzard in this day and age. I decided on Jolly for the time being to outrun the ridiculous amount of fast scarfers nowadays. The power loss shouldn't be too significant with Gyarados denting stuff like Vaporeon before Charizard comes in to sweep.

My thoughts

Overall, the goal of the team is obviously to set up a bellyzard sweep. From glancing over the team from a platinum perspective, there is a lot of work to be done and probably some pokes to replace. Rotom looks like it'd be a bitch, especially Rotom-h. Zapdos with Heat Wave also falls in this boat, though it can be played around with Jolteon. I think Donphan should be considered over Steelix due to Ice Shard (major DDmence weak here) and the possibility of a second spinner (perhaps with Assurance for incoming ghosts ready to block an obvious spin). Dualscreen, or at least Reflect would help Charizard to perhaps survive a Bullet Punch/Ice Shard, though priority moves might just have to be lived with. An alternate win condition is also necessary I think, perhaps if Donphan replaced Steelix then DDgyara could replace Tentacruel. Bulky waters would then need to be worn down with alternate methods though. I also think another Sunny Day-er might be more effective, though a fully powered specs Seed Flare is pretty hard to give up. With trick running around everywhere I think it would be worth it to put black sludge on Tentacruel and maybe consider a different lead like ScarfRoserade to have a 75% chance of shutting down stealth rock leads with sleep powder. Then Jolteon could come in at a later time if Roserade replaces Shaymin. Food for thought I guess.

Overall, with the potential revamps displayed, Charizard can come in on at least one of every pokemon's weaknesses on the team, which I think is really cool. There is still work to be done though I think.

Undertake this revamp challenge and rate away!!!

 

[Kirby119]

I see many problems with this team;
Dusknoir@Leftovers
Adamant
Pressure
252 HP/ 96 Atk/ 76 SpD/ 84 Spe
-Pain Split
-Fire Punch
-Focus Punch
-Shadow Sneak

Focus Punch, but no substitute? How do you pull off Focus Punch vs anyone unless there gonna switch?

Shaymin@Choice Specs
Modest
Natural Cure
220 HP, 252 SpA, 36 Spe
-Seed Flare
-HP (Fire)
-Sunny Day
-Rest

Rest on Specs? Lol. You recover HP But you can't do anything, but switch.

And Jolteon lead doesn't seem like a wise choice either. Especially with Trick Jirachi/Metagross Leads messing up that whole set.

 

[Dormin]

This is not the average team. As such, some of the sets will seem weird or odd. As the Dusknoir set states, it requires a lot of prediction, and Shaymin can natural rest after switching into a resist to both scout and keep it coming back for more. Some of these sets are of the "think out of the box" variety.

You state that Jolteon is not a good lead, but fail to follow up with a replacement suggestion.

In the future, I encourage you to read the entire thread--I hope everyone knows just how old this is, and that it needs some revamp suggestions. Thanks!

 

[thechocolatebunny]

well first off props to you/your friend for trying something original but the team is in need of a revamp

with shaymin- having sunny day/rest on a choice specs set is just asking for something to come in and set up, in this hyper offensive metagame you cant afford to lose turns, they are just so valuable, to change this I recomend changing the item to either Life Orb or leftovers. Both allow shaymin to change the weather and rest off damage but you arent losing as many turns and you can change attacks, leftovers makes your bulky shaymin even bulkier but LO gives you an extra bite and you can rest off the damage, I would actually recommend sunny day somewhere else but theres not enough room except in dusknoirs spot which will be my next suggestion. You do not need a blissey killer, especially one as unreliable as your dusknoir set, blissey is just set up bait for bellyzard and with +6 attack bliss isnt standing up to blaze fire punch. I recommend some sort of magnezone in this spot. Bellyzard cant afford to take priority moves and you cant just say that whenever you see a scizor/lucario than you lose a match because than you lose over half your matches. luckily they are the only prioroty users that are popular. By running

Magnezone@ChoiceScarf
Timid
Magnet Pull
252spA 252 spe 6 hp (IVs 31,30,31,30,30,31)
-t-bolt
-HP fire
-flash cannon
-signal beam


This will outspeed lucarios and t bolt will hurt them badly while you can switch in on scizors SD/BPunch and than hit them with HPfire while they just watch and die. Basically scarfzone eliminates priority users that would stop bellyzard, IVs give HPfire 70 to OHKO scizor. The lasat 2 are mainly fillers but flash cannon is another STAB that hits grounds and more importantly Rhyperior super effectively while signal beam ends celebi who otherwise walls this.

 

[Dormin]

Hmmm I think that magnezone is a good idea. Luke and Scizor and scarfrachi definitely need to be dealt with, though cbscizor is still annoying as hell with u-turn...I guess shaymin (life orb is a good idea as well) still lures him in. What does everyone think about Donphan? I think he would be even more useful nowadays for DDmence, and I've been contemplating Assurance to catch stuff like Rotom and/or Latias on the switch, because from my understanding stealth rock damage will cause the base power to double. Or Swampert, which also looks really good.

I'm also been thinking about ScarfRoserade over Jolteon as a lead, but still keeping it on the team instead of shaymin. Thus, while I now stop most to all leads with sleep powder, I now need to put Sunny Day somewhere else....maybe on Roserade with Sleep Powder/Sunny Day/Leaf Storm/HP Ice....but with a scarf that's kind of dumb.

Also, I know there is probably a more efficient EV spread for Tentacruel. I thought it would be useful nowadays to be as specially defensive as possible for Heatran whilst being able to outspeed Jolly Mamoswine. I know there are people out there who are better at EVs than I, so I thought I'd ask.

Thoughts?

 

[lordhmm974]

mmm i can tell you have put a lot of thought into this. magnezone is just about perfect for handling scizor or lucario, i was thinking mabye another spinner like donphan but swampert is the best with stealth rock and covers more of your weaknesses. shaymin is fine with the life orb and handles any weather changes quite well maybe solarbeam to go with sunnyday, same power more pp and better accuracy. tentacruel does its job, but idk if you will need that much speed id pack more into its SDef or Def. Shaymin should handle mamoswine for you as well.

the only improvement i can see is with jolteon. sub passing is great and thunderbolt and hp ice works well. but charizard suffers from SR, prioroty, sandstorm, and the 2-3 turn set up which would require some prediction and luck. you cover the first 3 weaknesses quite well, but the other not so much. as i said sub passing may work but maybe try a encore/sleep/sub setup user. the best id say is to use wobbuffet over jolteon but i honestly have noo idea if its still allowed or not or how the situation with wobb is going haha

togekiss-leftovers
substitute
encore
baton pass
roost/yawn/wish/air slash

it also has a better defences then Jolteon and health recovery. speed is good enough to outrun enough pokemon and a better base SAtk. yawn is for some sleep. air slash some attack if your worried of some taunters

or

jumpluff - focus sash/leftovers/lumberry
memento
sleep powder
reflect/lightscreen/substitute
encore

sleep, then make a sub on the switch, if they dont break the sub, then encore and switch. or sleep reflect/lightscreen on the switch, then memento. that will most likely force a switch especially with the right screen up. id go with reflect because most OU are physical sweepers.

if not stick with jolteon, its definitely stronger but its worth a try lol

 

[blasphemy1]

Well Steelix can "counter" DD Salamence, even with your current set. A LO Fire Blast w/24 SpA EVs with a neutral nature does 98% maximum, a very slight chance of a OHKO w/Stealth Rock but most are going to DD off the bat, or you can just pressure it into attacking, thus preventing a second DD. Anyways, a +1 LO Positive Nature Salamence w/max attack deals 79% maximum with EQ. You can simply Explode or Roar it away. Rocks should hopefully be up by now, but it really doesn't matter since Swampert wouldn't be able to get them up either unless it sacrifices.

Yes, go with Life Orb > Choice Specs on Shaymin. There are way too many grass resists in today's metagame, Scizor, Heatran, Salamence, Zapdos, Metagross, the list goes on, so you should focus on versatility. I am afraid that setting up Sunny Day is really going to hurt your chances at a Charizard sweep, as ScarfTran will do a lot to even Tentacruel, who is your sole Rapid Spinner and lacks recovery.

I too suggest the Jumpluff set listed above. You can put something to sleep, then drop their attacking stats to shit. With Sunny Day hopefully up, it will outspeed everything.

Overall, pretty good team, I just don't know how well it will fare with all of the fast Scarfers and the popular bulky Resttalk Gyarados.

 

[Dormin]

Point taken with Tentacruel. I should easily be able to play around Mamoswine with Shaymin and Magnezone, so I gave Tentacruel the standard EV spread to ensure that it can better counter Heatran. A neutral max SpA Fire Blast from Heatran with the Sun still fails to even 3HKO Tentacruel (of course, minus the rocks), so I don't think that will be an issue now. Plus, should said Heatran decide to Earth Power, I now have the best scenario I could ever want for setting up Charizard--a choiced ground attack.

To be honest, from my experiences with Bellyzard "teams," one should not hope to have the entire team focused around Bellyzard alone. I cannot hope to always remove his counters, so the team needs to function without him as well. For this reason, I really don't want such specialized pokemon as the Jumpluff and Togekiss you are suggesting. Sub passing from Jolteon works wonders and can still support members of the team besides Charizard. I'm not sure I want to give that up.

As for Resttalk Gyara...that's going to be a tough one. The good thing is that it is meant to come in often to wall, so hopefully with Stealth Rock damage and its need to rest, a belly-drum Charizard won't have a problem taking it down. I did the calcs, and with Sunny Day Charizard has no problem with Gyara at +5, but without it a 252 HP, 252 Def Impish Gyara cannot be beaten without taking a little over 25% damage. This exactly illustrates my point about being able to win other ways. Swampert, Shaymin, and heck even Jolteon at the end of the match have a chance to sweep, so I dunno.

More suggestions are greatly appreciated, as I don't think the team is completely up to par yet. Latias is going to be a bitch, but between Magnezone (Explosion) and Swampert's Avalanche I'm hoping it won't be too much of an issue.

 

[lordhmm974]

i decided to test this team because it sounded interesting lol.

lets start with swampert. maybe switch waterfall with earthquake. both are stab and earthquake hits more except for flying/levitate pokemon which can be dealt with avalance/icepunch. i advise you replace curse with roar, DD salamence and gyarados and tyranitar are all easily able to set up and forces you to switch to a pokemon that can counter and after one DD they can pretty much knock out your counters and sweep. with roar you can prevent that problem. Also change the EV's for swampert to 252 hp/ 252def you really dont need that much special defense. the main special attacks you will be dealing with is electric ice grass psychic and fire (with occasional dragon ghost dark) swampert resist those very well except for grass which will either knock it out or make it too weak to battle. so just dump it all into defense and avoid grass attacks.

Jolteon is the much better pick and has proven to easily just knock out those stealth rockers and other leads with either HP ice or thunderbolt. I have been able to win with just Jolteon and Shaymin's seed flare. forget togekiss lol its death, jumpluff was able to help set up charizard, but that was only after going with momento right off the bat into charizard. if you dont do that first or dont want to risk using charizard early in the game, then forget this pokemon. especially if they set up a stealth rock.. to get this pokemon back in without fainting is taxing.

shaymin did better with more speed then HP and takes out alot of pokemon with its speed, so id change the EVs to 252spd 252SAtk modest so it'll always move quicker and sweep with life orb.

tentacruel is pretty much useless, its defense is too weak and usually knocked out by physical sweepers before setting up toxic spikes, or even attacking back. and the ice/water combo is useless as well because of tentacruels low SAtk, and swampert makes a better ice/water attacker. the only decent stat it has is in its SDef but the main special attacks you will be dealing with is the same as before with swampert and tentacruel is weak to them so it gets knocked out pretty quick. its good once it gets a rapid spin and toxic spikes, but other then that it just dies lol. maybe another spinner like starmie or forrestress though id choose forretress because it can also be a strong and fast special sweeper

Magnezone and Charizard do just fine.

Starmie timid/modest leftovers
136hp 156def 216spd
surf/icebeam
rapid spin
thunderbolt
recover/ice beam

great pokemon stab surf bolt/beam combo, high special attack and rapid spin and health recovery so it can remain long enough to help charizard. its very useful and outspeeds alot of pokemon with a base 115 speed

forretress relaxed shedshell/leftovers
252hp 112Atk 144def
toxic spikes
rapid spin
gyro ball/earthquake
explosion

with the EVs it has a 384 def allowing it to take manyy hits, and its typing also helps its defenses. its main weakness are fire attacks and magnezone which can be dealt with an earthquake knocking out magnezone and heatran with ease. gyro ball has a base 100 and 0 IV/EV plus relaxed maximizes its power. its strong enough to last to rapid spin and set up toxic spikes, and when its over it can explode taking a pokemon with it. shed shell is for when you dont use earthquake for a chance to get out of that magnezone.

in my opinion there better then tentacruel

 

[Dormin]

Hmmmmm you may be right about Tentacruel. Toxic Spikes are really really useful though for bulky waters, but I suppose they could be given up. If I had to choose a poke to replace it though I would be inclined to go with Starmie, because then I still have another switch for Heatran.

I dunno about Swampert--I really want to keep Curse to have an alternate winning condition, and Waterfall helps against Bronzong who would otherwise wall the set completely. I suppose Magnezone would trap for the kill, but 'Zong has increasingly started carrying EQ just for Zone. I can't see how Mence or T-tar could possibly set-up on Swampert, since Mence doesn't take Avalanche too kindly and T-tar won't be getting through Swampert any time soon either. I suppose maxing defense is a possibility.

I've been tempted to put Scarf Roserade over Shaymin and make him the starter, while keeping Jolteon in secret until the opportune moment. It would pretty much solve all DD-anything problems, since HP Ice OHKOs Mence and Leaf Storm will most likely do the same to DDtar. However, I think Shaymin's wall-breaking ability with Seed Flare is almost too good to pass up. More speed would also help I suppose.

Any thoughts? Also feel free to playtest this.

 

[lordhmm974]

well its the gyarados that can set up on swampert easily, its the usual switch when swampert is sent in to avoid stealth rock damage. ddmence and ddtar cant really set up on swampert but with a dd on them and they can sweep. especially if there is another pokemon out and you switch to swampert or forced to switch to swampert which you most likely will be. on the switch they DD and after one they will be quick enough to EQ jolteon and magnezone for a OHKO, any attack on shaymin is bound for a OHKO/2HKO, stone edge on charizard(never swith it in on them), tentacruel is too frail to survive any physical attack, starmie would be knocked out by and ddmence attack and 2HKO by ddttar. so your left with swampert so a roar would be nice to save your butt haha. thats the main weakness of this whole set
---------------------
a scarf roserade is pretty similar to scarf shaymin to me,
but i supposed you would be running a

Roserade ChoiceScarf Timid/Modest
Natural Cure
252SAtk 252Spd
sunnyday
leafstorm
HP Ice
Rest/Sleep Powder

either rest and use natural cure, or sleep powder to sleep your opponent. it has the same problem with rest as scarf shaymin did and sleep powder is fine to use and switch in and out but sleep clause will soon make that move useless after using it once, so youd have to use it wisely. roserades SAtk is alottt better then shaymins and guarentees a knockout with the leafstorm/Hp ice combo. but if you run a timid which you sorta have to with scarf means the max SAtk is 349 to shaymins modest 327 not that much of a difference. if you go with modest then yeah thats a huge difference in power, but its speed is only a little faster then shaymins and your trapped to a move until you switch. plus its defenses are bad compared to shaymins with its low hp and defense. you could lead with either roserade or jolteon, both will work. the fact that it needs a choice scarf to keep up is the only problem i see with this. without speed this pokemon falls down back to UU so you will need a scarf.

shaymin modest choicescarf/life orb can also pull of the same effect. a HP ice instead of hp fire does good damage and it can also knock out many dragon types. and same with seed flare. a life orb just pumps up the power and allows you to move around its attacks. shaymins speed is good enough to support itself when 252Spd EVs are invested in it. its defenses and Hp allow it to also last longer then roserade. id stick with shaymin but feel free to try Roserade

they both are equally great just to see how each one works for you. tested starmie works very well with its type coverage and forretress basically does the job that tentacruel was supposed to fill with another explosion taking out problems you might face.

i recommend you use Forretress over starmie (rapidspin electric water recover-- Forretress/spinner Jolteon/Magnezone Swampert/watericeEQ Shaymin/rest) because of the many sweepers on the team and forretress just adds more bulk/defense to the team and can draw out problems and toxic spikes gets them. (Charizard Jolteon Shaymin sweep even Magnezone/Swampert can pick off pokemon) the team is designed to set up Bellyzard and can also support itself which is amazing. With good prediction you will always win with or without bellyzard

 

[Dormin]

Hmmm I see what your saying with Swampert, but I wouldn't leave Swampert in on Gyarados regardless because there are already two very good counters to it: Jolteon and Shaymin. Plus, I'm pretty sure Swampert would survive a DD Outrage from Salamence, which then powers up Avalanche for the OHKO. Tyranitar is a similar story with Waterfall. The Scarf Roserade I am proposing is...

Roserade @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Leaf Storm
-HP (Ice)
-Sleep Powder
-Sunny Day/Sludge Bomb

This way I now have an extra check against Salamence and I sleep their 1st turn stealth rocker. Sunny Day is a bit meh on this set, since it gives the opponent a very lucrative free turn, which is the main reason that I don't think it is such a good idea in the first place. Sandstorm just might have to be lived with if we go with this without Sunny Day, but then it would be a good idea to make Charizard's HP divisible by 4 because, between Sleep Powder and Tentacruel/Starmie Rapid Spin, I don't think Stealth Rock will get up and stay up easily and Charizard would survive a few turns in Sandstorm even after its set up.

 

[Scofield]

I ran that exact Roserade (I used sludge bomb) a lot recently to much success (see sig if you want). You just need to be careful of Heatran and Scizor, but you seem to have good switchins in magnezone and tentacruel, so you should be fine. It is a very good lead, just be wary of the aformentioned threats and lum berry metagross leads.

 

[Dormin]

Hmmmm yeah it seems like it'd be a pretty good idea. I'll go ahead and edit the OP with more changes soon, but I just want to know if it would be worth it as a lead for this team and whether Sunny Day should be on the set over Sludge Bomb. I'll probably keep Tentacruel simply for the toxic spikes and its ability to switch into Heatran with impunity.

 

[Chou Toshio]

SR seems like it is going to be the plague for you. I'd suggest coming up with a lead who can stop the SR set up . . . unfortunately, this is ridiculously hard to achieve. The big issue is that Jolteon's synergy with Charizard will be totally pointless if the opponent is putting up a SR at the same time, and Jolteon can do nothing to stop Azelf or Aero from getting it up. :/

Not to mention that either could just taunt you to end your baton pass. Point being is the goal of "keep SR off the field" seems much more important to this team's goal than trying to get charizard in off the bat. Unfortunately, if we're talking about keeping SR off the field, you have 2 routes:

-Something ridiculously fast, with Taunt
-Something with Fake out and a 2nd extremely powerful priority move.

For the first route, pretty much your only option is: Electrode. This is the only pokemon guaranteed to outspeed aerodactyle and taunt it. I suppose you could use some choice scarfer with Taunt, but the turn lost switching out seems really unappealing. Electrode can ensure SR doesn't come onto the field, and Explode.

edit: Ok, after taking a look, Hariyama's fake out and bullet punch barely manage ~30% on Azelf, so that's a no go. Yeah, electrode is pretty much your only option. Dx

Overall though, finding a lead for a dedicated charizard team (one who can keep SR off the field) looks to be a very difficult task in this meta's SR-driven metagame.

 

[Dormin]

I completely agree with you, which is why I have been considering Jolteon to come in later and having a new lead in his place. What we've been discussing so far is a ridiculously fast sleeper: namely Scarf Roserade. This way, not only is Stealth Rock prevented from getting up, but now the opponent cannot come in at a later time to set it up. Hariyama is an interesting idea though and as for Weavile I actually want Scizor bait so that I can potentially trap it with Magnezone, so that is also a possibility.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well, Hariyama comes no where close against Azelf unfortunately.

A scarf-sleeper could work. If you're going to go that far though, I'd say forget roserade and just go straight to Smeargle. Losing 20% of my matches "because sleep powder missded" does not seem great to me.

With this team idea, you're just going to be depending on the lead that much . . .

 

[Dormin]

Hmmmm I suppose Smeargle could work. Also, its not like I auto lose my matches when Stealth Rock is on the field. I have a spinner, other ways to win besides Charizard, and I currently have a Charizard with odd HP so that I can still Belly Drum down to 1 HP (hopefully under a sub passed from Jolteon). The problem with Smeargle is that he is practically useless outside of that 1st turn sleep, where as Roserade serves as a check to DDmence and DDtar that might get past Swampert.

EDIT: Updated the OP, let me know what ya'll think.

 

[TheMantyke]

Excuse me for jumping into the conversation, but what about Weavile? Weavile can learn Fake Out and Taunt and can out speed Azelf and KO with Pursuit or Ice Shard Aerodactyl.

Edit: Nevermind, didn't see that Roserade was now in the team, my bad.

 

[Dormin]

Hmmmm I had considered Weavile, but I wasn't sure where it would go without screwing over the synergy. Roserade replaces Shaymin nicely, so that was an easier switch. I'm not sure though, and I'm still open for suggestions. Earthquake is a pretty big problem now to.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Beh, I would never run weavile lead in this meta. >>

CT sent out Weavile!
Enemy sent out Azelf!

Enemy Switched out Azelf for Scizor!
Weavile Used Fake Out!
Scizor LOL'd

Weavile Swore like hell because it's about to get u-turned to hell or let one of its team mates get u-turned to hell and let the opponent set up an even better switch.

CT used Weavile . . . it failed.

>______________>

Also, smeargle is useful outside the first turn spore. Later on in the game, he can still trick scarf to the enemy, or Explode with STAB! :naughty:

edit: Also, Rapid Spin is such a fail strategy when it's only for SR. I can't think of a worse waste of a turn than trying to rapid spin, especially with Rotom freaking everywhere . . . Even better when you're trying to spin with Tenta/Starmie and you're faced with Rotom. >____________>

edit 2: Also, 1 hp belly drum seems fail with scizor and tyranitar everywhere. not to mention that you no longer get blaze + berry until you're at 1hp. :(

 

[Dormin]

Well, if you look at the whole team, weavile being "Scizor-bait" could actually be a good thing with the scarfmaggy. Scizor is getting taken out by maggy, so it is not a worry when Charizard is at 1 HP. If Tyranitar is around, I make sure he is eliminated before Charizard comes out, or switch into a weak attack and belly drum down to below 25%.

As for rapid spin, the new lead hopefully deals with stealth rock without me having to use it. I hardly think it is a "fail strategy."

Anyway, whenever you use Bellyzard you must be on a constant search for opening, and one shouldn't narrow their gaze to one situation.

 

[EeveeBreeder]

And with that enticing title, welcome to the past. Back when Garchomp, Porygon-z, and the original bulkygyara were the cream of the crop. Back when no one would even fathom the thought of a suicide lead. Back when........anything was possible.

Anyway, the team you are about to see is an old team of my friend Thunderhorse. Way back in 2007, we exchanged teams to critique each other and make them better, and this is his oldoldold Bellyzard team. I always felt that the thought which went into this team was amazing, and how the structure itself set it up for a potential B-zard sweep. Now, I realize most to all will think Bellyzard in this day and age in OU is crazy--read: Priority is rampant, and Stealth rock is...well...omnipotent.

The task I pose to you, team raters, is to try and help me revamp this team to be playable in the platinum metagame. My motivation in doing this is simply to spicen up the game a little using an unexpected threat, and help my gameplay by playtesting this hard to use team. Anything goes with your suggestions except, of course, removing the team's theme of having and helping Bellyzard to sweep (though, of course, there should be alternate win conditions). Sorry for this being tl;dr--here it is.

THE TEAM (at a glance)

REVAMP THOUGHTS....

IN DEPTH

Roserade @ Choice Scarf
Timid
Natural Cure
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Leaf Storm
-Hidden Power (Ice)
-Sleep Powder
-Sunny Day/Sludge Bomb

Roserade stops those annoying suicide leads in their tracks with Sleep Powder, thus preventing a 1st turn set-up. In addition, Roserade serves as a great check to Tyranitar and Salamence that get a DD in. Sunny Day over Sludge Bomb seems a bit meh to me, but I do feel like the team needs it.

Roserade is an exellent (excuse my spelling) lead for corrupting those stupid suicide leads such as Azelf. I don't normally use Roserade, I actually prefer leading with Yanmega/Gallade, but that's just me. Basically this is a wonderful lead, but Sludge Bomb is great for dealing with annoying pokemon that resist HP Ice and Leaf Storm (though none come to mind.) However sunny day and a solarbeam abuser would be a good combo.

Jolteon@Leftovers
Timid
Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252 Spe
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power (Ice)
-Substitute
-Baton Pass

Standard-fare Jolteon. Subs up and passes to Pokes (particularly Zard when faced with a possible EQ dilemma). Makes a great revenge killer to pick of pokes that are at about 50% or lower, depending on the Pokemon. Classic Joltzard combo right here, though passing a sub to just about anything on this team is very useful.

Decent Jolteon, the hidden power ice is a nice touch to avoid possible threats such as Mence or Dragonite, both of which are very common in the current metagame. Having something on your BPer is a very surefire way to throw a big sweeper a free set up turn or two, depending on whether or not they switch. This Jolteon will destroy any enemies that come in on it, except maybe a CM Celebi (HP Ice won't OHKO, then it recovers =\) Otherwise, nice jolteon set.

Steelix@Leftovers -----Swampert@Leftovers
Impish -----------------Careful
Sturdy---------------- Torrent
EVs: 252 HP, 120 Atk, 136 SpDef EVs: 252 HP, 160 Def, 96 SpD
-Earthquake---------------- -Stealth Rock
-Stealth Rock----------------Waterfall
-Explosion -------------------Avalanche
-Roar -----------------------Curse

Steelix's primary role here is Stealth Rocking--------This is a switch I am proposing to
to prevent Focus Sashers from ruining a Charizard--remedy the DDmence weak and add
sweep and to provide overall team support.--------another useful win condition. I really want
As opposed to Donphan who can both Rapid Spin --Avalanche on here to lay the hurt on
and SR, Steelix effectively counters BP teams ----Latias and Mence, so that is why it is
and set-up with Roar. Can take practically ------ here over Stone Edge and EQ.
any dragon-type attack like a champ, and -------Great synergy as a sweeper with
when he's done all he can he can blow up -------Charizard and gives Shaymin more
to take out a poke. Adds a lot of useful ---------switch-ins to wreak havoc. Stealth
resistances and immunites to this team. ---------Rock rounds off the set and it is needed.

Two pokemon is a bit hard to comment on, but I'll put it like this. Steelix is in Red and Swampy will be in blue. Alright. A fairly well rounded steelix, SR support avalible which is helpful for messing up with focus sashers which would otherwise come in on a free set up turn while you hammer it and it survives, then it kills you. Roar wreaks epic havoc on the abundance of passers, so you can mess them up in a BP chain, to avoid a mega sweeper like meta coming in and destroying you. An overall Well rounded steelix.

Swampert is just another well rounded SR player. His half unique Water/Ground typing gives him electric immunity, and is a good Twave absorber, which is abundant on many pokemon now. I think Swampert should be opted in over Steelix, but roar coverage is why steelix would be opted. Not much else to say right now.

Dusknoir@Leftovers ----------Magnezone@Choice Scarf
Adamant --------------------Naive
Pressure --------------------Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP/ 96 Atk/ 76 SpD/ 84 Spe ------- EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Pain Split -----------------Thunderbolt/Thunder
-Fire Punch -----------------Hidden Power (Fire)
-Focus Punch ---------------Flash Cannon
-Shadow Sneak--------------Explosion

Another odd set. Pain Split is obvious--------- A suggestion by chocolatebunny
and Shadow Sneak is there for ----------------to rid this team of pesky priority
Sashers/low health pokes. Fire punch --------- from the likes of Scizor and Luke.
is still anti-metagame. The biggest parts ------Also takes down trickmetagross and
of this set are Focus Punch and an ------------Scarfrachi leads which cause problems
EV spread dedicated to it. This Pokemon ------- I think Explosion is also a very useful
is the anti-Blissey Poke. Immune to ------------asset. Patches up a small Mamo weak
Seismic Toss, takes crap damage from --------- with Flash Cannon as well. I'm
Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and --------------------debating Thunder over Thunderbolt
Flamethrower, and wears them out really -------to guarantee the KO on Lucario, which is
fast, not to mention it doesn't care all ----------a very important thing for Charizard.
that much about paralysis. It has enough-------It shouldn't be an issue with Sunny Day,
Speed EVs to outspeed Blissey, and------------since then HP (Fire) destroys Luke.
enough attack EVs to KO Blissey with a
Focus Punch and two Fire Punches counting
lefties. Through three different scenarios
(either being behind a Jolteon Sub where
ST doesn't break it, predicting Calm Mind
or other non-damaging attack, or bringing
it down to a point where it has to Softboiled),
it can be hit with Focus Punch for heavy
damage. Now the opponent has a choice:
either Bliss Softboils and risks taking another
Focus Punch, most likely killing her or bringing
her to near death, or using an attack move
to try and stop FP and risking a Fire Punch
which, afterwords, another one would kill her.
Fire Punch also makes great bait for
Heatran and TTar to set up a Focus Punch
on the turn they come in, expecting to get
either a free switch-in, or a Flash Fire boost.
This set takes A LOT of prediction to use,
but that is a large part of this team.

Dusky in Red, Magne in blue. As for dusky, he likes pain splitting the opponents for massive regain, and to relieve them of at least half their hitpoints, for an easy KO with another move. Right now, nothing could really stand up to a dusky except Scarfgar or an opposing dusknoir [LOL PAIN SPLIT WAR] But otherwise he's well rounded and his set really is quite odd.

On to Magne. Another well rounded set, but opt for Tbolt thanks to the better accuracy, should you not have rain support. If you have rain, opt towards Thunder when in the rain, because it will never miss. Other than that, Steelix is your only real threat, as well as other grounds that FC can't hit. HP fire is there for the steel coverage, but grounds could become an issue. Otherwise, very nice. I would only opt for Magne if your team can't handle the steel types otherwise.

Tentacruel@Leftovers/Black Sludge
Calm
Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP/ 120 Def/ 136 SpD
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Toxic Spikes
-Rapid Spin

Spinning duties have been delegated to this slot instead of the 2nd slot. Tentacruel is great for getting rid of Stealth Rocks that would otherwise ruin Charizard's day. It is able to take on most Gengar 1 on 1 with good prediction due to great special defense. It also sets up toxic spikes which greatly help in wearing down bulky waters like Swampert, Vaporeon, and Suicune who stop Charizard in his tracks. I'm thinking Black Sludge might be useful for trickers. Redone EVs for more special bulk--Heatran fails to 3HKO with Fire Blast in the Sun, so don't think that will be a problem anymore.

Black sludge is so much betterm since it avoids the trickers by making them lose health when they trick you, and it heals you up until then. Spinning is very useful in the current metagame, getting rid of spikes and SR and he absorbs Toxic Spikes making him more useful than ever. Honestly, psychics and electrics are your only issue. Otherwise, very well rounded.

Charizard @ Salac Berry
Adamant
Blaze
EVs: 4 Def, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
-Belly Drum
-Fire Punch
-Earthquake
-Substitute

And finally, the centerpiece of this team. Standard Bellyzard, and still as deadly as ever. In today's metagame, a bellyzard in OU is never considered as a potential threat, especially with people sitting snugly behind their priority moves and stealth rock. Without these two pieces, however, teams are eaten alive by this monster. I'm thinking about odd HP just in case I can't take down rocks. If I pass a sub from Jolteon, BD would still work.

Charizard is a well rounded pokemon in the current metagame, it can destroy unsuspecting teams with it's wide movepool, and is an excellent late-game sweeper should it still be alive then. Really this guy shouldn't be brought out without a sub from jolteon that is hopefully not broken by an attack first, but it's worth the risk to jump the opponent with a belly drum from behind a sub, then sweep afterwards. Very nice.

My thoughts

Overall, the goal of the team is obviously to set up a bellyzard sweep. From glancing over the team from a platinum perspective, there is a lot of work to be done and probably some pokes to replace. Rotom looks like it'd be a bitch, especially Rotom-h. Zapdos with Heat Wave also falls in this boat, though it can be played around with Jolteon. I think Donphan should be considered over Steelix due to Ice Shard (major DDmence weak here) and the possibility of a second spinner (perhaps with Assurance for incoming ghosts ready to block an obvious spin). Dualscreen, or at least Reflect would help Charizard to perhaps survive a Bullet Punch/Ice Shard, though priority moves might just have to be lived with. An alternate win condition is also necessary I think, perhaps if Donphan replaced Steelix then DDgyara could replace Tentacruel. Bulky waters would then need to be worn down with alternate methods though. I also think another Sunny Day-er might be more effective, though a fully powered specs Seed Flare is pretty hard to give up. With trick running around everywhere I think it would be worth it to put black sludge on Tentacruel and maybe consider a different lead like ScarfRoserade to have a 75% chance of shutting down stealth rock leads with sleep powder. Then Jolteon could come in at a later time if Roserade replaces Shaymin. Food for thought I guess.

Overall, with the potential revamps displayed, Charizard can come in on at least one of every pokemon's weaknesses on the team, which I think is really cool. There is still work to be done though I think.

Undertake this revamp challenge and rate away!!!

Comments in Red or Blue

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well, if you look at the whole team, weavile being "Scizor-bait" could actually be a good thing with the scarfmaggy. Scizor is getting taken out by maggy, so it is not a worry when Charizard is at 1 HP. If Tyranitar is around, I make sure he is eliminated before Charizard comes out, or switch into a weak attack and belly drum down to below 25%.

As for rapid spin, the new lead hopefully deals with stealth rock without me having to use it. I hardly think it is a "fail strategy."

Anyway, whenever you use Bellyzard you must be on a constant search for opening, and one shouldn't narrow their gaze to one situation.

You did read the part where Scizor goes to kill weavile with U-Turn right? Making your maggy switch in both in vain, and letting the opponent know you have a maggy.

-Against ttar, you have to bait him out (a lot of players use late-game dder btw), kill him (killing a ttar is, from my experience, far from easy) and use sunny day before you go for the charizard sweep. Doesn't sound all that plausible imo, especially when your one weather user is both your lead (in danger of getting killed), and choiced (making it less flexible).

-Also, you said nothing to refute my claim that rapid spin is a fail strategy. I have never heard a skilled player praise rapid spin, and the vast majority include it (if they include it at all) only because they have a slot and "it can't be helped." Most offensive teams opt to go without rapid spin completely and just use a team that isn't too hampered by SR.

Stopping SR from getting onto the field is overall, a better strategy than trying to remove it-- Roserade is definitely a good strategy there. However, it just burns my eyes that it has a 20% chance of missing and your best win condition depends on stopping SR.

Like you said, it's a hard to work strategy that can give back great results and will challenge you to pilot it well-- I'm just thinking "hard" might be an understatement.

 

[Shadowhunt]

Well, Hariyama comes no where close against Azelf unfortunately.

A scarf-sleeper could work. If you're going to go that far though, I'd say forget roserade and just go straight to Smeargle. Losing 20% of my matches "because sleep powder missded" does not seem great to me.

With this team idea, you're just going to be depending on the lead that much . . .

What about Ambipom? Pretty sure he has all of those things Hariyama has. Just a suggestion

Ambipom @ Silk Scarf/Choice Band/Life Orb, or even Choice scarf it you'd like
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Technician
-Return
-Focus Punch/Brick Break
-Fake out
-U turn/Payback

Ambipom is like a faster, more fragile version of Tauros. He makes a good antilead, what with priority moves, etc. Just a suggestion, I happen to think Ambipom is rarely considered and underrated.