No Scald Ladder

[Sam]

If you've been looking at competitive discussion in UU recently, you may have noticed that Scald is a hot topic. There's a lot of debate over the competitiveness of the move, with many top players clamoring for its removal. The issue with Scald is magnified in UU due to the prevalence of many bulky waters, which are hard to deal with even without the 30% burn chance from their STAB.

It's a lot of trouble for us to suspect Scald because it can affect the lower tiers, where Scald isn't as much of a problem (or perhaps even a balancing move). At the same time, there's genuine concern for how Scald affects UU and if the metagame would be a lot better without it. For this reason, we have decided to make a separate ladder where Scald is banned.

This is not a suspect test. We are not suspecting Scald. This is a curiosity, a trial-run for a UU without Scald. A lot of people have wanted to see the metagame without Scald, so this is their chance.

I am asking that anyone who plays on this ladder please post your feelings on it here. Both Hikari and I are going to be using this to gauge what further actions we should take with Scald. A large playerbase for this ladder is imperative to its success, so we ask that you all give it a try and post your thoughts.

The ladder will be playable on Pokemon Showdown as "UU (No Scald)". You may use this thread for general discussion on the ladder, including theorymoning. However, please keep all discussion about this ladder to this thread.

 

[Nails]

i speak for the RU tier when i say f*ck scald. don't worry about us, just do your thing and ban it. please.

 

[Chronobreak]

I've gotta say, I wasn't expecting this, but it looks incredibly interesting. I have a feeling this will turn the meta on its head, and maybe in a good way.

 

[HT]

Virizion hype

 

[Eyan]

This just makes numerous SD and DD mons like Mega Abomasnow, Haxorus, Feraligatr that aren't carrying a lum berry have an easier time setting up on the bulky waters in the tier. The viability of said bulky waters will likely be a little lower in this ladder since being forced to run Surf limits a lot of their utility in clicking an offensive move, as the possibility of a burn isn't there anymore. You can't just go "Click scald and hope for a burn". They may run Ice beam more often now for like Salamence and Hax though. I will kinda miss having guts activated by scald on stuff like heracross though. Nevertheless this should be fun.

 

[Knuckstrike]

Is it okay to discuss scald staying in the tier or not in this thread?

 

[SirVictini]

SCALD!! no more worriez :]]

 

[Japitor]

You're so epic

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

So we bring a full team of SD / DD users with a Will-O switch in. Looks like fun...

 

[Erza98]

Like "OU (no Stealth Rocks)"... I guess we will soon have "[Tier] (No Dragon Dance, no Shell Smash, no Protect, no Toxik, no Thunder-Wave)" or something like that, given that everybody hates every move that doesn't let them win...

 

[metagamesecrets]

this isnt funny

 

[wolfenstein]

Scald is pretty much as gay as U-turn or Knock off; literally no opportunity cost to use these moves at all. You can just spam it like it's going out of fashion and bring tears to your foes eyes whilst you dont suffer in the slightest. I am going to play the hell out of the scald-less tier.

 

[reachzero]

I would like to add that this means that no more games will need to be decided by whose Tentacruel/Mega Blastoise/Empoleon burns the other's first.

 

[androwonfire]

I seriously disagree with it being banned- That being said I realize it's not up for suspect. Pokemon like Conkeldurr thrive from a guts boosted drain punch. There are obvious checks, and a ton of viable clerics in OU and UU metagame. It can be annoying to be burned by a scald on your lati@s, but it doesn't DECIDE the game. It's something you have to be aware of, and willing to risk.

Scald hax can be annoying. I'll be honest and say that on my current team, my only way of dealing with ferrothorn is hoping for the scald burn from my Milotic. When it happens, great. But other times I don't burn in 7+ scalds. It's not ban worthy IMO.

..But that's just me...

 

[g]

Ban Sacred Fire too for equality. And Steam Eruption.

Anyway if this in a proxime future goes through it would be awesome if lower tiers could choose what to do about it and not be bound to UU with this transitivity.

Also is this a ban or a clause?

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Inb4 a "No Stealth Rock" ladder

 

[MegaMogwai]

Is this heaven? I may jump back into UU now :]

 

[xzern]

Inb4 a "No Stealth Rock" ladder

yea but stealth rocks can be checked with rapid spin & defog... whereas the effectiveness of scald is based on luck and only luck

 

[Saria]

Ban Sacred Fire too for equality. And Steam Eruption.

Anyway if this in a proxime future goes through it would be awesome if lower tiers could choose what to do about it and not be bound to UU with this transitivity.

Also is this a ban or a clause?

When those moves become as common as Scald, and they start to constantly decide important tournament games we'll consider it.

Pretty sure it was decided they could choose what to do in this kind of situations, but from what I have heard many RU players want to ban Scald as well.

Right now ban because it's only affecting a "side"-ladder.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

yea but stealth rocks can be checked with rapid spin & defog... whereas the effectiveness of scald is based on luck and only luck

Wow that goes for just about any move with the ability to hax, we might as well ban moves like Body Slam then, seriously Scald is in no way shape or from even remotely as uncompetive as stuff like Moody and Evasion

 

[boltsandbombers]

Wow that goes for just about any move with a secondary chance, we mght as well ban moves like Body Slam then

But that's completely ignoring the reason why this ladder was created. The tier is littered with bulky water types that spam scald which often determine the outcome of games. Do you see a plethora of body slam users negatively affecting the tier?
Anyways, this is a really interesting concept and I'm really intrigued to try out the ladder.

 

[Machi]

Wow that goes for just about any move with the ability to hax, we might as well ban moves like Body Slam then, seriously Scald is in no way shape or from even remotely as uncompetive as stuff like Moody and Evasion

The problem inherently lies in the coverage of scald, only specialized mons are outright immune to the move via ability, in that anything that resists it still risks the burns and the only thing that is immune to burns is hit for super effective damage. Whereas we can't say the same for Body Slam/Discharge. It also helps that there is a much larger distribution for Scald.

Aside that I think defensive teams will struggle most with this since scald is a staple in many of those teams and becomes one of the primary means of wearing down an opponent.

 

[MKSLAYER97]

Like "OU (no Stealth Rocks)"... I guess we will soon have "[Tier] (No Dragon Dance, no Shell Smash, no Protect, no Toxik, no Thunder-Wave)" or something like that, given that everybody hates every move that doesn't let them win...

You're missing the purpose of this whole thing. The thing with Scald isn't that it's good, it's that it's so chancy. Games are often won just by a 30% chance (I've been on both the winning and losing sides before), so when the results of the game are decided on so heavily by coin flips, there's a problem. It's similar to the Swagger ban in that it makes the game less RNG-dependent and more skill dependent. All of the moves that you listed are perfectly fine, and aren't reliant on probability.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

The problem inherently lies in the coverage of scald, only specialized mons are outright immune to the move via ability, in that anything that resists it still risks the burns and the only thing that is immune to burns is hit for super effective damage.

Please stop using this argument people, it has nothing to do with the reason we are saying its uncompetitve (Makes games chancy), obvious, and is just plain dumb

I will probably wait to see if this is suspected, since there isn't much relevance to me saying much about it here, but I really hope to see that arguement not being used much

 

[scolipede]

rip scald